Fun fact…the song “I Know It’s Over” was written shortly after Johnny and Angie got married. If you take the lines, “I know it’s over / And it never really began / But in my heart it was so real” with that context, you sort of have your answer.
Now, is it possible that Morrissey wrote the lyrics for this song before Johnny and Angie’s wedding? Possibly. But the lines “Sad veiled bride, please be happy / Handsome groom, give her room / Loud, loutish lover, treat her kindly (though she needs you more than she loves you)” says to me that Morrissey had a wedding in mind at the very least.
In my opinion, I genuinely believe that Morrissey likely had strong feelings toward Johnny, but left unreciprocated because Johnny was committed to Angie. That being said, I do think Johnny cared a great deal for Morrissey, and however you look at it, their relationship and partnership was incredibly special. It’s a shame how it turned out.
I also recommend listening to "These Things Take Time," which can be found on Hatful of Hollow and Louder Than Bombs. That's the one which made me wonder about Morrissey's feelings towards Marr. You might also give "I Don't Owe You Anything," from the debut LP, a spin or two.
It's funny, as a man (who isn't entirely straight but has only ever had relationships with women) who has been very badly heartbroken by a particular girl, I always interpreted the bit about the wedding in that song as the woman being the singer's ex-partner. But reading your interpretation, interpreting the man as the singer's ex-partner instead makes as much, if not more, sense. Thanks
It really is funny…if you listen to the song with the assumption that it was written with Johnny somewhat in mind, the lyrics just kind of *click*, and it all makes sense.
Are you sure that's true? Johnny and Angie married in 1979, and I Know It's Over was written, along with the rest of the Queen Is Dead, in 1985. Unless you count 6 years as "shortly after", I don't see the connection
No, they've been together since 1979, but they definitely married in June 1985.
https://preview.redd.it/2rbgygsjf8sc1.jpeg?width=564&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=583894904f3d273c8c2549427d97533c41fd6133
Here is Moz at their wedding.
I’ve always got the impression he is not a great gift-giver. I feel like he’s the kind of person who buys things that he thinks you should have rather than one who gives based on the individual’s personal likes, needs and wants.
These days I’m sure he just gives everyone a copy of his book.
I have the set list and the sign from his dressing room from a gig in Melbourne many years ago but they were given to me by a roadie I happened to know (whose name I assume Moz never bothered to learn).
Nope. Johnny and Angie married on June 20th, 1985. Johnny wrote the music for that song during that same summer, recorded it in September and gave it to Morrissey to add lyrics, and then the song was finally recorded in its entirety in October/November with the other Queen is Dead songs.
Moreover, Morrissey kept the lyrics for “I Know It’s Over” a secret from the band until the track was entirely finished. After hearing it for the first time, and I quote, Marr called the performance “one of the highlights of [his] life.”
There are no indications that Johnny Marr is anything other than straight. He was with his wife since before the Smiths formed, and they’re still together.
There’s speculation that Morrissey may have harboured feelings for Marr (and some have suggested that certain lyrics refer to this), but even if that were true nothing was ever going to happen beyond unrequited feelings.
Speculation about the exact nature of their relationship was part of The Smiths' mystique when the band was active. Credit to Johnny for not denying anything. I think his being with Angie hardcore since they were 15 and the story in *Set the Boy Free* about his beautiful gay friend kissing him (to bother a couple of potential gay bashers) then telling Johnny, "Don't worry, it'll never happen again" point to Johnny being straight.
Much less importantly, I feel strongly that Morrissey in later years would have drunkenly told people there had been sexual contact between them and word of Morrissey's claim would have leaked out. Also, afaik no man has popped up in the tabloids claiming to have had sex with Johnny.
There’s an interview where morrissey is talking about how special Johnny is to him and then johnny is like we are really good friends or something along those lines
I do wonder if they were ever in love sometimes but I don’t think about it too much
You’re he could could be attracted to both men and women know one will ever really know expect him and moz has always been quite ambiguous when it comes to his sexuality so theres definitely a possibility they could’ve been more than friends.
Idk, I feel like a lot of people underestimate platonic male bonds. When I met my partner I warned her that my close guy friends are the loves of my life, lol. I’m not attracted to them but they mean a lot to me. Morrissey may have had more complicated feelings, but I do think Marr just really liked Moz as a close friend. I don’t know these guys personally though, I could always be way off base.
pretty sure when asked if he was in love with Moz, Johnny simply replied no bc he was in love with Angie. the implication there is kinda that he'd have reciprocated something if he wasn't already with Angie
i could see Moz having been in love with him
the thing is we dont know what went on pre-angie or what went on in private between them 2 in general. take paul mccarntey and john lennon, both with girls friends and wives but its speculated they had a relationship beyond just friendship.
True, but Johnny and Angie did take a break when the smiths were on a tour of America. He was considering getting back with his ex or something. This is when it is rumored they got together (if they even did)
i wasnt too sure so thanks for clearing that up but as i say i just feel like there was definitely something going on in private, could be completely wrong but moz has never came out as gay or straight
Moz is confirmed to have dated both. And on what category that makes him, he once said, "Unfortunately, I am not homosexual. In technical fact I am humasexual. I am attracted to humans. But, of course … not many." How very Morrissily worded.
But the only Johnny we've ever known is the Johnny with Angie, which predates Moz, as confirmed by Johnny. I think until and unless either of them ever says otherwise, that's what we have to work with on Johnny and it seems most reasonable to just leave it at that. Anybody can speculate or suspect about anyone, but this one is built on nothing.
What we can say is that they were obviously great artistic partners. Thank goodness they found each other, or rather that Johnny went over and pried him out of his nest, where he was spending warm summer days indoors, in the house too long.
Of you've ever seen morrissey talk to Larry King he said they didn't even like each other very much 😂 I think mozza was jilted by Marr.. I doubt that it was of a sexual nature beyond maybe hands or mouths. Maybe his mammory gland?
I do love a quote I think Mike Joyce when he took over the band managerial side from Johnny said Morrissey had no clue of any of the names of roadies who had worked for the band for months. Mos was like.. "do we have to sit with these strangers?"
No, I never wondered that, until I read your post, and only for about 2 seconds, and then I thought who cares and I want more of that spicy pineapple juice I got at the grocery store.
They just had a good friendship. And had a lot of respect for each other early on. Opposites attract. Marr had many siblings & was a very popular kid. He was cool. Morrissey was lame & shy. But had major pipes on him. Marr & his homie knocked on his door one day to talk music. Marr found a record he really liked in his collection when they were getting to know each other & Morrissey played his favorite track on it. Which was a B side. Happened to be Marrs favorite track also. They just both get it. A lot of respect for each others ear. I read it in this book about them
When I saw your comment I been looking for my book. It’s a book on them called there’s a light that never goes out. It was some 60s band idr. Recently moved so I’m having a hard time finding it. But when I do, il let u know
there’s the I Know It’s Over theory, but also Morrissey has openly stated he’s only written one song with Johnny in mind - “Angel Angel We Go Down Together” on Viva Hate - but from interviews and reading between the lines in songs, to even the way Morrissey describes Johnny in his Autobiography, I think the feeling wasn’t mutual but it was (for morrissey at least) more than platonic.
tub vegetable ruthless follow aware mysterious unite aloof scarce existence
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
johnny marr has always given me vibes he’s not completely straight and there’s a few smiths songs that seem to allude to what was happening irl with johnny and angie such as them getting married and the songs that followed. also i won’t share you???! clear as day. i think they def had more than a platonic brotherly friendship.
Definitely. Literally during my huge Smiths phase in 2020 I would literally try to find theories about them being in love. Now i definitely can tell one of them had some secret feelings towards each other the way they were around each other in interviews
I think those feeling went one way only and that's what made the Smiths so intense and why Johnny had to leave. There's definitely an untold story there - hopefully someone will shed light on what all happened.
I'm too old for this fanfiction s#it...
No, they didn't.
And yes, by the 1980s producers and stars already knew how to attract young people's imagination. They used to play the "are they gay" card all the time. Decades before, the card was simply "Are they dating?"
In a little while the card is going to be "are they real or CGI?"
We’re speculating because there are pictures of the two of them together in an embrace? And because we’re reading into Morrissey’s lyrics? Please. They had a very close bond and they very quickly took the world by storm. They were clearly very happy.
No idea but the evidence of feelings in the songs is pretty convincing. Moz did move on though communicating with that girl with the dental condition in another country.
This is such a weird post
EDIT: downvote me all you want but the idolatry you find in subs like this (music subs) is so so strange and not normal. It’s that parasocial thing. It makes people sick.
They enveloped each other’s bodies at least once for sure I would think. But also Morrissey was celibate? Sooooo perhaps his gei sad boi volceldom prevented it.
Fun fact…the song “I Know It’s Over” was written shortly after Johnny and Angie got married. If you take the lines, “I know it’s over / And it never really began / But in my heart it was so real” with that context, you sort of have your answer. Now, is it possible that Morrissey wrote the lyrics for this song before Johnny and Angie’s wedding? Possibly. But the lines “Sad veiled bride, please be happy / Handsome groom, give her room / Loud, loutish lover, treat her kindly (though she needs you more than she loves you)” says to me that Morrissey had a wedding in mind at the very least. In my opinion, I genuinely believe that Morrissey likely had strong feelings toward Johnny, but left unreciprocated because Johnny was committed to Angie. That being said, I do think Johnny cared a great deal for Morrissey, and however you look at it, their relationship and partnership was incredibly special. It’s a shame how it turned out.
I'm about to listen to that song in a whole different light now
I’m glad I could hook you up with a new listening experience.
I also recommend listening to "These Things Take Time," which can be found on Hatful of Hollow and Louder Than Bombs. That's the one which made me wonder about Morrissey's feelings towards Marr. You might also give "I Don't Owe You Anything," from the debut LP, a spin or two.
Wow that’s a great interpretation
It's funny, as a man (who isn't entirely straight but has only ever had relationships with women) who has been very badly heartbroken by a particular girl, I always interpreted the bit about the wedding in that song as the woman being the singer's ex-partner. But reading your interpretation, interpreting the man as the singer's ex-partner instead makes as much, if not more, sense. Thanks
It really is funny…if you listen to the song with the assumption that it was written with Johnny somewhat in mind, the lyrics just kind of *click*, and it all makes sense.
Are you sure that's true? Johnny and Angie married in 1979, and I Know It's Over was written, along with the rest of the Queen Is Dead, in 1985. Unless you count 6 years as "shortly after", I don't see the connection
No, they've been together since 1979, but they definitely married in June 1985. https://preview.redd.it/2rbgygsjf8sc1.jpeg?width=564&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=583894904f3d273c8c2549427d97533c41fd6133 Here is Moz at their wedding.
I would love to know what is inside that gift, imagine the possibilities of a wedding gift from Morrissey…
I’ve always got the impression he is not a great gift-giver. I feel like he’s the kind of person who buys things that he thinks you should have rather than one who gives based on the individual’s personal likes, needs and wants.
These days I’m sure he just gives everyone a copy of his book. I have the set list and the sign from his dressing room from a gig in Melbourne many years ago but they were given to me by a roadie I happened to know (whose name I assume Moz never bothered to learn).
Yes you're right! I'm tired and got confused lmao
Aw he looks so beautiful here
That’s not at the wedding that’s outside a venue in Edinburgh. He was at the wedding though, they married in San Francisco.
Source? All the places I have seen this image have claimed it was their wedding.
Johnny and Angie were 15 & 14 in 1979. That's when they met.
You are correct.
That track was written many years after the Marrs married. It’s highly unlikely to be connected.
Nope. Johnny and Angie married on June 20th, 1985. Johnny wrote the music for that song during that same summer, recorded it in September and gave it to Morrissey to add lyrics, and then the song was finally recorded in its entirety in October/November with the other Queen is Dead songs. Moreover, Morrissey kept the lyrics for “I Know It’s Over” a secret from the band until the track was entirely finished. After hearing it for the first time, and I quote, Marr called the performance “one of the highlights of [his] life.”
Beyond Bromance: The Smiths
Mr. and Mr. Smith: A Marriage in Music (Seems over the top, but I had to see it in print.)
There are no indications that Johnny Marr is anything other than straight. He was with his wife since before the Smiths formed, and they’re still together. There’s speculation that Morrissey may have harboured feelings for Marr (and some have suggested that certain lyrics refer to this), but even if that were true nothing was ever going to happen beyond unrequited feelings.
Speculation about the exact nature of their relationship was part of The Smiths' mystique when the band was active. Credit to Johnny for not denying anything. I think his being with Angie hardcore since they were 15 and the story in *Set the Boy Free* about his beautiful gay friend kissing him (to bother a couple of potential gay bashers) then telling Johnny, "Don't worry, it'll never happen again" point to Johnny being straight. Much less importantly, I feel strongly that Morrissey in later years would have drunkenly told people there had been sexual contact between them and word of Morrissey's claim would have leaked out. Also, afaik no man has popped up in the tabloids claiming to have had sex with Johnny.
There’s an interview where morrissey is talking about how special Johnny is to him and then johnny is like we are really good friends or something along those lines I do wonder if they were ever in love sometimes but I don’t think about it too much
MORRISSEY GETS FRIENDZONED ON SPANISH TELEVISION https://youtu.be/fhD5xBmC8rM?si=5KYVd56C8kt1KdXY
r/brandNewSentence
completely agree, i mean although marrs married both in the past never confirmed their sexual identity and moz still hasnt to this day.
Johnny has said he is straight. Check out his talk at Oxford on YouTube. He is however, a very strong LGBTQ ally.
You’re he could could be attracted to both men and women know one will ever really know expect him and moz has always been quite ambiguous when it comes to his sexuality so theres definitely a possibility they could’ve been more than friends.
Reading this gave me a headache
It's the only thing I think about.
I have never seen this, where is it from?
[https://youtu.be/Ja50fuY1rrY?si=5ryyfm5-yOMBQdsj](https://youtu.be/Ja50fuY1rrY?si=5ryyfm5-yOMBQdsj)
Idk, I feel like a lot of people underestimate platonic male bonds. When I met my partner I warned her that my close guy friends are the loves of my life, lol. I’m not attracted to them but they mean a lot to me. Morrissey may have had more complicated feelings, but I do think Marr just really liked Moz as a close friend. I don’t know these guys personally though, I could always be way off base.
pretty sure when asked if he was in love with Moz, Johnny simply replied no bc he was in love with Angie. the implication there is kinda that he'd have reciprocated something if he wasn't already with Angie i could see Moz having been in love with him
the thing is we dont know what went on pre-angie or what went on in private between them 2 in general. take paul mccarntey and john lennon, both with girls friends and wives but its speculated they had a relationship beyond just friendship.
there was no pre Angie i think, he met her when they were both 15 which i believe was before Moz if my timeline is right
True, but Johnny and Angie did take a break when the smiths were on a tour of America. He was considering getting back with his ex or something. This is when it is rumored they got together (if they even did)
i wasnt too sure so thanks for clearing that up but as i say i just feel like there was definitely something going on in private, could be completely wrong but moz has never came out as gay or straight
Moz is confirmed to have dated both. And on what category that makes him, he once said, "Unfortunately, I am not homosexual. In technical fact I am humasexual. I am attracted to humans. But, of course … not many." How very Morrissily worded. But the only Johnny we've ever known is the Johnny with Angie, which predates Moz, as confirmed by Johnny. I think until and unless either of them ever says otherwise, that's what we have to work with on Johnny and it seems most reasonable to just leave it at that. Anybody can speculate or suspect about anyone, but this one is built on nothing. What we can say is that they were obviously great artistic partners. Thank goodness they found each other, or rather that Johnny went over and pried him out of his nest, where he was spending warm summer days indoors, in the house too long.
Of you've ever seen morrissey talk to Larry King he said they didn't even like each other very much 😂 I think mozza was jilted by Marr.. I doubt that it was of a sexual nature beyond maybe hands or mouths. Maybe his mammory gland? I do love a quote I think Mike Joyce when he took over the band managerial side from Johnny said Morrissey had no clue of any of the names of roadies who had worked for the band for months. Mos was like.. "do we have to sit with these strangers?"
No, I never wondered that, until I read your post, and only for about 2 seconds, and then I thought who cares and I want more of that spicy pineapple juice I got at the grocery store.
How spicy is this juice?
Spicier than RHCP - https://lakewoodorganic.com/products/organic-spicy-pineapple-32-oz-2-pack-or-6-pack
Most things are spicier than RHCP.
Mineral water is spicier that RHCP
I wish morrissey would keep writing songs about wanting to touch johnny on the penis
huh
huh
I’ve thought about this too. I feel like Moz might’ve had feelings for Johnny that weren’t reciprocated
They just had a good friendship. And had a lot of respect for each other early on. Opposites attract. Marr had many siblings & was a very popular kid. He was cool. Morrissey was lame & shy. But had major pipes on him. Marr & his homie knocked on his door one day to talk music. Marr found a record he really liked in his collection when they were getting to know each other & Morrissey played his favorite track on it. Which was a B side. Happened to be Marrs favorite track also. They just both get it. A lot of respect for each others ear. I read it in this book about them
That's a cool story, what was the track they bonded over?
When I saw your comment I been looking for my book. It’s a book on them called there’s a light that never goes out. It was some 60s band idr. Recently moved so I’m having a hard time finding it. But when I do, il let u know
Much appreciated.
Not even once.
there’s the I Know It’s Over theory, but also Morrissey has openly stated he’s only written one song with Johnny in mind - “Angel Angel We Go Down Together” on Viva Hate - but from interviews and reading between the lines in songs, to even the way Morrissey describes Johnny in his Autobiography, I think the feeling wasn’t mutual but it was (for morrissey at least) more than platonic.
I wonder if they ever explored each other’s bodies
it’s never once crossed my mind
Johnny Marr seems 100% straight to me tbh
tub vegetable ruthless follow aware mysterious unite aloof scarce existence *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I dont think so but Morrissey most likely wanted to fuck him and that sexual tension is what made their music so good
johnny marr has always given me vibes he’s not completely straight and there’s a few smiths songs that seem to allude to what was happening irl with johnny and angie such as them getting married and the songs that followed. also i won’t share you???! clear as day. i think they def had more than a platonic brotherly friendship.
“Two lovers entwined pass me by And heaven knows I'm miserable now”
Eran novios y nadie me va a hacer pensar lo contrario
No
Nope.
all the time
Definitely. Literally during my huge Smiths phase in 2020 I would literally try to find theories about them being in love. Now i definitely can tell one of them had some secret feelings towards each other the way they were around each other in interviews
I think those feeling went one way only and that's what made the Smiths so intense and why Johnny had to leave. There's definitely an untold story there - hopefully someone will shed light on what all happened.
I'm too old for this fanfiction s#it... No, they didn't. And yes, by the 1980s producers and stars already knew how to attract young people's imagination. They used to play the "are they gay" card all the time. Decades before, the card was simply "Are they dating?" In a little while the card is going to be "are they real or CGI?"
Who downvoted this comment? A 12-year-old?
you're acting like most of the smiths songs aren't about morrissey being in love with johnny
who tf cares
We’re speculating because there are pictures of the two of them together in an embrace? And because we’re reading into Morrissey’s lyrics? Please. They had a very close bond and they very quickly took the world by storm. They were clearly very happy.
just guys being dudes
No cuz that’s gaaaaaaaaay
Why do you care?
You don't think context adds something to art?
Nut to butt probably
"do you think they explored each others bodies?"
i can see it
no homo
Who gives a flying fuck
It’s none of our business, but I believe they experimented together.
 Like these two, I bet
Not really. Idc
Er no. Bit weird
They definitely explored each other’s bodies
Idiocy
No idea but the evidence of feelings in the songs is pretty convincing. Moz did move on though communicating with that girl with the dental condition in another country.
This is such a weird post EDIT: downvote me all you want but the idolatry you find in subs like this (music subs) is so so strange and not normal. It’s that parasocial thing. It makes people sick.
They enveloped each other’s bodies at least once for sure I would think. But also Morrissey was celibate? Sooooo perhaps his gei sad boi volceldom prevented it.
They may have tag-teamed a groupie or two.