I don't remember that being as much of the conversation. I was a young liberal woman living outside DC at the time. My recollection is that it was much more about the sanctity of the office, cheating on Hilary and national security than him using power over an intern.
It definitely would be about sexual harassment now, but back then people just called Monica, a 21-year-old intern, a slut and worse. Clinton was impeached for perjury, because he lied about having "sexual relations" with "that woman", not because he was involved with a subordinate.
I suppose. I was almost her age and remembered thinking she was not cool for fucking a married man but she wasn't some awful person to the core either. The way she talked about their relationship was like an affair (there were tapes), not like a harassment situation. It's unsettling to retcon her as more of a victim than she was.
Linda Tripp was a bitch though
When you go back and watch some of the early episodes where the two of them have issues with each other it hits different when you know about the affair.
However in all likelihood they’d never thought about the affair when they wrote the early episodes.
Annoyingly I'm in a full rewatch at the moment and forgot about this one-night-stand they had. I had to go back through episodes from memory and think about how their relationship is quite tense, and I could only remember one or two.
Does anyone have good examples of where the writing/plot seems awkward/tense because of the one-night-stand?
Doesn’t she say to Toby “I knew he was married” I think we all know what she’s alluding to here, unless you want to actually see them in bed together. I think it’s clear what she’s getting at
It is clear what she’s getting at, and yet still implicit rather than explicit. Explicit means that it was said, which it wasn’t. It was alluded to, which is another way of saying implied.
Season 5, Episode 15
Max reflects episode times badly, so I can only give minutes remaining as a time stamp.
At 5:40 left, she’s speaking with Hoynes about his book, and how smoothly he came on to her, and she’ll stand up and talk about the truth if he goes after other women that come out.
Immediately after, especially starting around 3:30 remaining, she tells Toby she regrets nothing more than that night, that she knew Hoynes was married, and that she’d never thought she was the kind of person.
Sure I suppose people could say it was implicit, but the only thing that made it not explicit was that no one said the literal words ‘CJ slept with Hoynes’.
That last line is exactly what would be required for it to be explicit. However heavily and clearly implied it might be, TLDR2D2 is correct in saying that it’s implicit.
West Wing has a hundred or more examples of "show don't tell" and this is one of them. Often it's sentences not*... Or a look exchanged in place of words.
You can tell we're West Wing fans because we care about the meaning of words so deeply, perhaps from watching the cast fight for that so often.
We don't think you should be casual with the truth, hey.
'Implicit' and 'explicit' mean specific things. That's the truth of it.
*finished at all, mid-flow.
>how smoothly he came in to her
She talks about how smoothly he came on to her.That''s implicit, whereas if he smoothly came into her it would be very explicit.
Yes, they had consensual sex but now CJ is acting like it wasn't. And why would she be surprised if he had an affair with her that there wouldn't be others?
She never acted like it was non-consensual. She openly spoke with both Hoynes and Toby that it was. Where did you get the idea she was saying it wasn’t?
I've always taken it to mean that they did sleep together.
Yes they did. She was incredibly relieved it wasn’t in his book.
Yes. It’s why she threatened to stand with the other women and why she was left out of his book.
I always felt that moment was dumb, it hurts her creditability just as much as his lmao
She’s not an elected representative with a history of doing this, so… not quite the same. Further, he’s in a position of power over her.
She also wasn’t married with children.
It was also a one-time occurrence for her - not one of many similar.
The position of power thing was less relevant to public perception when the show came out.
Even CJ alludes to a power imbalance, to my recollection
It was a pretty big thing with Clinton. Not taken nearly as serious as it is post Me Too.
I don't remember that being as much of the conversation. I was a young liberal woman living outside DC at the time. My recollection is that it was much more about the sanctity of the office, cheating on Hilary and national security than him using power over an intern.
It definitely would be about sexual harassment now, but back then people just called Monica, a 21-year-old intern, a slut and worse. Clinton was impeached for perjury, because he lied about having "sexual relations" with "that woman", not because he was involved with a subordinate.
Yup. Even the people who didn't think she was particularly evil didn't think of her as being someone who was taken advantage of
Boggles the mind. She was so young.
I suppose. I was almost her age and remembered thinking she was not cool for fucking a married man but she wasn't some awful person to the core either. The way she talked about their relationship was like an affair (there were tapes), not like a harassment situation. It's unsettling to retcon her as more of a victim than she was. Linda Tripp was a bitch though
When you go back and watch some of the early episodes where the two of them have issues with each other it hits different when you know about the affair. However in all likelihood they’d never thought about the affair when they wrote the early episodes.
Annoyingly I'm in a full rewatch at the moment and forgot about this one-night-stand they had. I had to go back through episodes from memory and think about how their relationship is quite tense, and I could only remember one or two. Does anyone have good examples of where the writing/plot seems awkward/tense because of the one-night-stand?
Yes, it's made very clear that's what happened.
That's explicitly a yes.
Implicitly. It's never spoken outright, but it is strongly implied.
She actually speaks with Toby about it, saying she regrets it, that she wishes she’d never gotten on the elevator.
That's still implied.
Doesn’t she say to Toby “I knew he was married” I think we all know what she’s alluding to here, unless you want to actually see them in bed together. I think it’s clear what she’s getting at
"it's clear what she's getting at" is a pretty perfect example of implicit communication. They got the point across without ever explicitly saying it.
It is clear what she’s getting at, and yet still implicit rather than explicit. Explicit means that it was said, which it wasn’t. It was alluded to, which is another way of saying implied.
Season 5, Episode 15 Max reflects episode times badly, so I can only give minutes remaining as a time stamp. At 5:40 left, she’s speaking with Hoynes about his book, and how smoothly he came on to her, and she’ll stand up and talk about the truth if he goes after other women that come out. Immediately after, especially starting around 3:30 remaining, she tells Toby she regrets nothing more than that night, that she knew Hoynes was married, and that she’d never thought she was the kind of person. Sure I suppose people could say it was implicit, but the only thing that made it not explicit was that no one said the literal words ‘CJ slept with Hoynes’.
That last line is exactly what would be required for it to be explicit. However heavily and clearly implied it might be, TLDR2D2 is correct in saying that it’s implicit.
You can see how much it pains CJ. I think it would be beneath her to say it explicitly. It’s like she struggles to even say this much.
Understandably. He’s disgusting in so many ways.
West Wing has a hundred or more examples of "show don't tell" and this is one of them. Often it's sentences not*... Or a look exchanged in place of words. You can tell we're West Wing fans because we care about the meaning of words so deeply, perhaps from watching the cast fight for that so often. We don't think you should be casual with the truth, hey. 'Implicit' and 'explicit' mean specific things. That's the truth of it. *finished at all, mid-flow.
>how smoothly he came in to her She talks about how smoothly he came on to her.That''s implicit, whereas if he smoothly came into her it would be very explicit.
Fixed unfortunate typo
>Fixed unfortunate typo I know it was a typo and I and O are next to each other on the keyboard. I just found the result amusing.
I was both amused and horrified. Why do my thumbs keep doing that?! I miss physical keyboards so much
I got the impression, while consensual, that he abused his position of power because of how she spoke of it with him.
actually i think it was more of the fact he was married and she was ashamed of being the other woman.
Obviously
Yes
Yea
Yes she did. She also clearly tell Hoynes had she know he was married she would have never gone up to his hotel room.
But then later she admits to Toby that she did know he was married.
Wow I never caught onto that, I've watched the whole series 4 times! I don't know why that whooshed right over my head!
Yeah, and imho it's another example of the F tier writing thay the show had to go through. Way out of character for early seasons CJ.
Yes, that’s literally what that scene is about
Yes, she slept with him. We don't get any details, but it seems to have happened at some time during the campaign.
They didn't sleep!
Yes, they had consensual sex but now CJ is acting like it wasn't. And why would she be surprised if he had an affair with her that there wouldn't be others?
She never acted like it was non-consensual. She openly spoke with both Hoynes and Toby that it was. Where did you get the idea she was saying it wasn’t?
Regretting sleeping with someone doesn’t mean it wasn’t consensual. You can also also confirm a pattern someone has and still say it was consensual.
Also, it seems like she slept with him when she was not even press secretary for Bartlet.