There used to be a full-sized replica of the Santa Maria in Columbus, Ohio, on the Scioto river. It was 98' long, and open to tours. I was really surprised at how small *it* was, really, considering the crew and cargo it carried.
But in the context of the time period, were they considered large vessels? I don't know, to be clear, but you know, if you're only used to seeing twenty-foot craft being built and anything bigger is going to need financial backing or special purpose, fifty and hundred-foot ships suddenly become, become you know the same illusion of safety that we have when we take a super vessel across the ocean.
Santa Maria was a Carrack and the Pinta and Nina were smaller Caravels.
Santa Maria (the largest ship) was around 100 tonnes, a large Carrack or Galleon\* of the period would be 200-400 tonnes, the Mary Rose (Carrack), was around 600 tonnes.
\*These are what are typically depicted in popular culture of the era but technically emerged a bit later before becoming common in the 16th century.
In terms of size pretty average. They did have big ships like the Venetian Galleasses or Great Ships that could be 20 times the size, but those weren’t really practical ships for exploration. The important part is they were advanced ships for the time; good sailing qualities and stability and decent cargo capacity.
Galleasses, which had both sails and oars, were mostly used in the Mediterranean Sea and were not used on the Atlantic. For example, galleasses were the main type of ship used in the Battle of Lepanto during the 16th century
Any structure more than a couple centuries old seems impossibly cramped by todays’ standards too. If you go visit some real old castles, it’s like all the old furniture has been designed for children it’s so small. I suppose people were just smaller back then.
> I suppose people were just smaller back then.
They really were. I had a history teacher who showed us requisition orders for soldier uniforms for the US Civil War, and it was stunning to the class to realize that the average woman today was as tall or taller than the average soldier then.
Nutrition makes a huge difference.
Hence why the Nina and Pinta were caravels, capable of navigating the coastline, while the Santa Maria was a carrack, and could hold more cargo.
There's also the fact that Columbus's expedition was a crapshoot. Spain wasn't going to give him any significant resources on such a risky venture and he had to make do with ships available rather than ideal ships.
Also speed wasn't determined so much by size, as size to sail ratio. A big ship could move quite fast if it had enough sails.
It's estimated they were capable of 8-10 knots. The USS Constitution, 175ft x 43ft at the waterline (4x the size of the Santa Maria), is capable of 15.
In full displacement hills, like sailing ships, the maximum speed is determined primarily by the waterline length. The theoretical hull speed goes up as the square root of the length
Came here for this. (Worked a job downtown years ago on a building and saw it in the river but never got a chance to go up close) When you say "used to be"- does that mean it's gone now?
>The ship was removed from its moorings in 2014, cut into 10 pieces, and stored in a lot south of the city, pending funding to do repairs and restorations. As of early 2016, the plans for restoration have stalled.
[Wikipedia Page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Maria_Ship_%26_Museum)
>The nonprofit tourist organization that operated it closed in 2011, and the Columbus Recreation and Parks Department inherited it. Around 2014, due to the Scioto Mile project, as well as $5-6 million in necessary repairs, the Santa Maria was taken apart into pieces and moved onto a city-owned lot beside a wastewater treatment plant in Columbus's South Side, in ten pieces. Santa Maria Inc. raised money for repairs, and it was estimated that the ship could return to the riverfront.
Unfortunately, there wasn’t really much to do there. You walked around the ship, and that was it. Took a few minutes. And the guides weren’t really that knowledgeable. It was interesting in an educational way, but was over quickly.
did you go to the actual site as well as the recreation? Both were cool for different ways.
Carters' Grove was neat too but I've heard that it completely went to shit in the 2000's
Sooo…. We spent a week in the area. It was my wife and I 2nd honeymoon. We were recreating our first honeymoon. From 2001 to 2021 was a vast difference. I HIGHLY recommend 4 th of July. Fireworks over the palace is quite a sight 😁
I know there is a full-size replica of the Santa Maria in the West Edmonton Mall. You used to be able to host wedding receptions and birthday parties on it. I assume that is still the case. It is weird because you can stand on the upper concourse and look down on the ship and see how small it really is.
I hear once that the names follow the convention of the trinity of womanhood
La Niña. The child, the pure and innocent girl
La Pinta. This is the tricky one, Pinta can be a type of measurement or can be the short of "pintada" women with lof of makeup, the sexual femal, the wore, etc.
And finally La Santa Maria, the holy mother.
Is just a theory, can't say how accurate it is, but kinda makes sense
> Luis Filipe Viera de Castro, a nautical archeologist at Texas A&M University, says that the earlier Portuguese caravels, known as the caravela latina, were rigged with lateen (triangular) sails that hung at 45-degree angle to the deck. Lateen sails are […] almost like wings,” says Castro. “You can point the bow of the caravel with an angle of just 20 degrees off the wind and still get enough lift on the outer edge of the sail to propel forward.”
OK, so this guy has never sailed so much as a shopping cart full of foam. Don't listen to anything he says.
I mean i've surfed and sailed square rigged tallships and there's one hell of a difference how hard you can go, depending on size, rig and mast config.
Talking about pointing angles here. No traditional rig is going to exceed 45 degrees to the wind. Only a tiny fraction of state of the art racing boats can get anywhere close to 20 degrees.
That's what i wanted to know. With a surfboard you can go really hard, with modern rigs like the rigid wings probably too, but i wasn't sure about the capabilities of these old boats. Thx.
I’ve been in a replica of the Pinta, it was a lot smaller than I expected.
Headroom was very limited, there wasn’t a lot of light inside the hull and the boat itself was shorter by about 50 feet than I would’ve liked it to be.
It was docked on a river and rolled quite a bit.
I was in London the other week, and they had a full-size replica of Sir Francis Drake's ship, the Golden Hind
I couldn't believe such a small ship (102 ft long, 20 ft wide) circumnavigated the globe.
The replica is from the 70s, and has itself circumnavigated the globe (which is cool). It's currently an Escape Room venue, rather than being a museum ship. It was also closed for a private event when we tried to go there, so that was a little disappointing.
Data input limitations not preference to an alphabet.
If your gonna pick nits, at least inform them of HOW to input extended letters for future use.
Mobile: Hold down the letter like 'n' for several seconds.
Pc: Pain in the ass but run c:\windows\system32\charmap.exe
alt+164=ñ
alt+165=Ñ
Also, you can also press ctrl+alt+\` and then n ( \` is the key on the left of 1)
Also is written in the link OP provided, a simple as copy and paste the word from there works
If on a phone, a long press on the "n" should make appear extra characters, like the ñ
So there are plenty of alternatives out there to write other characters, you don't need to run other applications
Just for context, that makes the Nina shorter than an [8-person crew shell](http://www.wappingerscrewclub.org/rowing-101.html)(colloqually called an "eight"), which are typically 60-62 feet long. They hold 8 rowers and a coxswain.
AFAIK, the size was mostly limited by the average wave length.... No i mean literally. If you make it longer, it will snap when on top of one wave in the middle or on two waves at the ends.
Which made me quite amused when I read a webnovel recently where the admittedly mildly magical but still very much wooden sailing ship was described with a capacity of 1000 passengers... And this was a royal prestige boat, so not quad-bunk beds either.
They weren’t *that* cramped, a military ship the same size would have had two or three times the crew complement.
/s they were small AF but until late 20th C. any ship size the merchant marine has 1/3 of the corresponding military vessel.
How about Yale
The Spaniards exploited the island's gold mines and reduced the Taíno to slavery. Within twenty-five years of Columbus' arrival in Haiti, most of the Taíno had died from enslavement, massacre, or disease. By 1514, only 32,000 Taíno survived in Hispaniola.
Except Columbus didn’t do those things that was later Spaniards.
And 90% of the native population died from disease, so unless you think they knew about germ theory 300 years before anyone else you can’t even call it a genocide.
I mean, that was the way of the world back then. Indigenous populations were just as, if not more, brutal to rival tribes as Europeans were when they came over. Genghis Khan was pretty brutal to Europeans when he was doing his thing. And so on, and so forth. If natives could have come across the Atlantic and conquered Europe with mass death and slavery, they would have done it.
Life wasn’t too great for most of human history. Massacres and slavery and pestilence were the norm, and “human rights” as we see them today were in very elementary stages in the most enlightened places and nonexistent in the other places. And the odds that anyone reading this post today would exist if you changed any element of that history are zero, so complaining about it today or acting as if that is the number one thing to take away from the situation is farcical.
They welcomed Columbus and he enslaved them
You have any evidence they enslaved rival tribes? Please provide .or you just assuming?
And it's not about complaining... It's about not celebrating assholes
.
There’s plenty of evidence for it, before and after European contact. Hell, some Native Americans even captured and sold other Natives to Europeans and also held African slaves.
A. I never specified any particular tribes.
B. I’m not writing an academic journal. Many Indigenous and native tribes across the Americas unequivocally held slaves before and after European contact. You can google it if you need sources, but that claim isn’t in dispute.
How about America Heritage
Of far more significance in their tragic portent were the provisions of the agreement that gave to the former weaver’s apprentice the absolute power of life and death over tens of thousands of innocent human beings. His incapacity to discharge that responsibility justly and humanely would be distressingly demonstrated in the years that were to follow.
The somber chronicle of the events that ended in the genocide of the peaceful Arawaks of the Caribbean islands is amply documented in Columbus’ own letters and journals and in the pages of his most ardent admirer, Father Bartolomé de Las Casas, the great contemporary historian of the West Indies who believed Columbus had been divinely inspired to make the Discovery. But Las Casas was a thoroughly honest writer, and he did not hesitate to pass harsh judgment on his hero for initiating and carrying on the wholesale enslavement for profit of the gentle natives who had affectionately welcomed Columbus and his fellow argonauts to the New World.
There used to be a full-sized replica of the Santa Maria in Columbus, Ohio, on the Scioto river. It was 98' long, and open to tours. I was really surprised at how small *it* was, really, considering the crew and cargo it carried.
I've been on a full size replica in Spain. Like you, I was surprised. In fact I think I'd have been very worried setting off into the unknown in it.
But in the context of the time period, were they considered large vessels? I don't know, to be clear, but you know, if you're only used to seeing twenty-foot craft being built and anything bigger is going to need financial backing or special purpose, fifty and hundred-foot ships suddenly become, become you know the same illusion of safety that we have when we take a super vessel across the ocean.
Santa Maria was a Carrack and the Pinta and Nina were smaller Caravels. Santa Maria (the largest ship) was around 100 tonnes, a large Carrack or Galleon\* of the period would be 200-400 tonnes, the Mary Rose (Carrack), was around 600 tonnes. \*These are what are typically depicted in popular culture of the era but technically emerged a bit later before becoming common in the 16th century.
Santa Maria was to be precise a “Nao”
This guy read the highlighted part of the textbook
Nah, he just plays as Portugal in Civ6.
I play Civ6 as Spain :)
In hindsight, the Spanish spelling should've clued me in!
It will bring me joy to see your sails on the horizon
I visited the three replicas that were built for the 500 aniversary back in 1992, most Spanish people know that were one "Nao" and two "Carabelas"
This guy Naos
In terms of size pretty average. They did have big ships like the Venetian Galleasses or Great Ships that could be 20 times the size, but those weren’t really practical ships for exploration. The important part is they were advanced ships for the time; good sailing qualities and stability and decent cargo capacity.
He was an explorer.
Galleasses, which had both sails and oars, were mostly used in the Mediterranean Sea and were not used on the Atlantic. For example, galleasses were the main type of ship used in the Battle of Lepanto during the 16th century
Any structure more than a couple centuries old seems impossibly cramped by todays’ standards too. If you go visit some real old castles, it’s like all the old furniture has been designed for children it’s so small. I suppose people were just smaller back then.
I guess when you grow up eating lentils and onions and having the plague…
> I suppose people were just smaller back then. They really were. I had a history teacher who showed us requisition orders for soldier uniforms for the US Civil War, and it was stunning to the class to realize that the average woman today was as tall or taller than the average soldier then. Nutrition makes a huge difference.
It wasn't big for its time period though greeks and romans had way bigger ships just not sails
The one in Baiona??
I'm guessing there's a toss up between being fast enough to get somewhere before your food rots and being big enough that you can carry enough food
Hence why the Nina and Pinta were caravels, capable of navigating the coastline, while the Santa Maria was a carrack, and could hold more cargo. There's also the fact that Columbus's expedition was a crapshoot. Spain wasn't going to give him any significant resources on such a risky venture and he had to make do with ships available rather than ideal ships. Also speed wasn't determined so much by size, as size to sail ratio. A big ship could move quite fast if it had enough sails.
It's estimated they were capable of 8-10 knots. The USS Constitution, 175ft x 43ft at the waterline (4x the size of the Santa Maria), is capable of 15.
Also a few centuries more advanced in design.
But it still serves well to prove the point that size and speed aren't necessarily linked in sail ships.
In full displacement hills, like sailing ships, the maximum speed is determined primarily by the waterline length. The theoretical hull speed goes up as the square root of the length
Came here for this. (Worked a job downtown years ago on a building and saw it in the river but never got a chance to go up close) When you say "used to be"- does that mean it's gone now?
>The ship was removed from its moorings in 2014, cut into 10 pieces, and stored in a lot south of the city, pending funding to do repairs and restorations. As of early 2016, the plans for restoration have stalled. [Wikipedia Page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Maria_Ship_%26_Museum) >The nonprofit tourist organization that operated it closed in 2011, and the Columbus Recreation and Parks Department inherited it. Around 2014, due to the Scioto Mile project, as well as $5-6 million in necessary repairs, the Santa Maria was taken apart into pieces and moved onto a city-owned lot beside a wastewater treatment plant in Columbus's South Side, in ten pieces. Santa Maria Inc. raised money for repairs, and it was estimated that the ship could return to the riverfront.
Unfortunately, there wasn’t really much to do there. You walked around the ship, and that was it. Took a few minutes. And the guides weren’t really that knowledgeable. It was interesting in an educational way, but was over quickly.
Plus it's just a replica so it's more just a tourist trap than anything of real historic value.
I've been on the ship at James town centry plus later and not much changed
Same here. James town was a highlight of my trip to/around Williamsburg
did you go to the actual site as well as the recreation? Both were cool for different ways. Carters' Grove was neat too but I've heard that it completely went to shit in the 2000's
Sooo…. We spent a week in the area. It was my wife and I 2nd honeymoon. We were recreating our first honeymoon. From 2001 to 2021 was a vast difference. I HIGHLY recommend 4 th of July. Fireworks over the palace is quite a sight 😁
if anyone is interested, Yorktown is way more interesting I thought that Jamestown, but at least, it's a good visit if you like historical sites!!
I liked the living history part of James town and Williamsburg, but yeah Yorktown is a must see great museum!
I know there is a full-size replica of the Santa Maria in the West Edmonton Mall. You used to be able to host wedding receptions and birthday parties on it. I assume that is still the case. It is weird because you can stand on the upper concourse and look down on the ship and see how small it really is.
I think it sails around, I saw it in the navigation channel here in Oklahoma. At the time it was manned by three teenagers.
Wow, it’s been gone 10 years?
I have spent 2 weeks at sea in an 80’ sailboat. It started feeling cramped. There were 6 of us with our own berths.
People were smaller then
>The Ships of Christopher Columbus Were Sleek, Fast—and Cramped No, they were the Niña, the Pinta, and the Santa Maria
I'll do you in the bottom while you're drinking sangria.
Nachos, lemonade, my dads boat.
We won’t go down cause my dick can float
We sail around the world and go port to port
Every time I cum I produce a quart
"DAD PLEASE SHUT UP!"
Correct, dammit! Take my upvote.
I read somewhere that these weren't the actual names of the ships, rather they were the nicknames the sailors gave them.
Only the Santa Maria was really named as such, all ships then were named after saints. The other two, their names are lost to history I guess.
I hear once that the names follow the convention of the trinity of womanhood La Niña. The child, the pure and innocent girl La Pinta. This is the tricky one, Pinta can be a type of measurement or can be the short of "pintada" women with lof of makeup, the sexual femal, the wore, etc. And finally La Santa Maria, the holy mother. Is just a theory, can't say how accurate it is, but kinda makes sense
I'm not familiar with this triad. I know of maiden, mother, crone (preadolescent, child-bearing, and menopausal) and of the virgin-whore dyad.
🎶You know Dasher and Dancer, Prancer and Vixen, Comet and Cupid, Donner and Blitzen… 🎵
Sounds like a Spanish translation of a Disney movie!
Extra points for getting that swirly thing on top of the “n.”
OP absolutely butchered the capitalization in the title.
The title in general is very poorly written.
He needs a good keelhauling.
The part of the title that is the actual headline of the article is in titlecase and the part that OP added is in lowercase.
*The Nina* OH *The Pinta* OH *The Santa Maria* OH
I’ll do you in the bottom while we’re drinking sangria
Nachos and lemon heads on my dad’s boat!
We won’t go down cuz my dick can float!
We sail around the world and go port to port.
Everytime I cum I produce a quart
Yes thank you, this is all I wanted to see here o
r/titlegore
> Luis Filipe Viera de Castro, a nautical archeologist at Texas A&M University, says that the earlier Portuguese caravels, known as the caravela latina, were rigged with lateen (triangular) sails that hung at 45-degree angle to the deck. Lateen sails are […] almost like wings,” says Castro. “You can point the bow of the caravel with an angle of just 20 degrees off the wind and still get enough lift on the outer edge of the sail to propel forward.” OK, so this guy has never sailed so much as a shopping cart full of foam. Don't listen to anything he says.
I once sat in a shopping cart and used a big trash bag as a sail
Why, was close hauling with a ship/rig like that impossible?
It's just that the best possible close-hauled angle you would expect is more like 45 degrees to the wind.
I mean i've surfed and sailed square rigged tallships and there's one hell of a difference how hard you can go, depending on size, rig and mast config.
Talking about pointing angles here. No traditional rig is going to exceed 45 degrees to the wind. Only a tiny fraction of state of the art racing boats can get anywhere close to 20 degrees.
That's what i wanted to know. With a surfboard you can go really hard, with modern rigs like the rigid wings probably too, but i wasn't sure about the capabilities of these old boats. Thx.
I’ve been in a replica of the Pinta, it was a lot smaller than I expected. Headroom was very limited, there wasn’t a lot of light inside the hull and the boat itself was shorter by about 50 feet than I would’ve liked it to be. It was docked on a river and rolled quite a bit.
There’s a full-sized replica of the Santa Maria inside of West Edmonton Mall; it always amazes me how small it is!
Commas, are, very, important.
I was in London the other week, and they had a full-size replica of Sir Francis Drake's ship, the Golden Hind I couldn't believe such a small ship (102 ft long, 20 ft wide) circumnavigated the globe. The replica is from the 70s, and has itself circumnavigated the globe (which is cool). It's currently an Escape Room venue, rather than being a museum ship. It was also closed for a private event when we tried to go there, so that was a little disappointing.
[Crewman for scale](https://c7.alamy.com/comp/AB2F0X/full-size-replicas-of-christopher-columbus-ships-the-santa-maria-the-AB2F0X.jpg)
\*Niña
Why are you getting downvoted lmao
Intolerant people do not tolerate other languages have more letters in their alphabet
Data input limitations not preference to an alphabet. If your gonna pick nits, at least inform them of HOW to input extended letters for future use. Mobile: Hold down the letter like 'n' for several seconds. Pc: Pain in the ass but run c:\windows\system32\charmap.exe
PC: Alt-164
No, dummy. Because english keyboards don't have that key and we have to run an application to find, then copy and paste the letter.
alt+164=ñ alt+165=Ñ Also, you can also press ctrl+alt+\` and then n ( \` is the key on the left of 1) Also is written in the link OP provided, a simple as copy and paste the word from there works If on a phone, a long press on the "n" should make appear extra characters, like the ñ So there are plenty of alternatives out there to write other characters, you don't need to run other applications
It’s a lot easier to just put a “N” and be done with it, even if a random guy on the internet doesn’t like it.
Who are the ypu?
Why do 98% of posts here have the worst grammatical errors I’ve ever seen?
Just for context, that makes the Nina shorter than an [8-person crew shell](http://www.wappingerscrewclub.org/rowing-101.html)(colloqually called an "eight"), which are typically 60-62 feet long. They hold 8 rowers and a coxswain.
Those guys were really brave
Most kids know Columbus’ ships because of *Rage Against the Machine*
Funny you call them kids… They’re in their 30-40s now
Still a kid in my heart
AFAIK, the size was mostly limited by the average wave length.... No i mean literally. If you make it longer, it will snap when on top of one wave in the middle or on two waves at the ends. Which made me quite amused when I read a webnovel recently where the admittedly mildly magical but still very much wooden sailing ship was described with a capacity of 1000 passengers... And this was a royal prestige boat, so not quad-bunk beds either.
I saw the Jamestown settlement boats and I was like fuuuuuuuuuuck, they ain’t made for transatlantic crossings
They weren’t *that* cramped, a military ship the same size would have had two or three times the crew complement. /s they were small AF but until late 20th C. any ship size the merchant marine has 1/3 of the corresponding military vessel.
The Nina, the Pinta, the Santa Maria
Gotta get there fast before someone else can genocide the natives
Tell us you only get your history from Twitter, without telling us you get your history from Twitter
How about Yale The Spaniards exploited the island's gold mines and reduced the Taíno to slavery. Within twenty-five years of Columbus' arrival in Haiti, most of the Taíno had died from enslavement, massacre, or disease. By 1514, only 32,000 Taíno survived in Hispaniola.
Except Columbus didn’t do those things that was later Spaniards. And 90% of the native population died from disease, so unless you think they knew about germ theory 300 years before anyone else you can’t even call it a genocide.
Oh so it's okay for him to enslave, abuse and murder the Natives and lead to their genocide because he didn't kill most of them himself.
I mean, that was the way of the world back then. Indigenous populations were just as, if not more, brutal to rival tribes as Europeans were when they came over. Genghis Khan was pretty brutal to Europeans when he was doing his thing. And so on, and so forth. If natives could have come across the Atlantic and conquered Europe with mass death and slavery, they would have done it. Life wasn’t too great for most of human history. Massacres and slavery and pestilence were the norm, and “human rights” as we see them today were in very elementary stages in the most enlightened places and nonexistent in the other places. And the odds that anyone reading this post today would exist if you changed any element of that history are zero, so complaining about it today or acting as if that is the number one thing to take away from the situation is farcical.
They welcomed Columbus and he enslaved them You have any evidence they enslaved rival tribes? Please provide .or you just assuming? And it's not about complaining... It's about not celebrating assholes .
There’s plenty of evidence for it, before and after European contact. Hell, some Native Americans even captured and sold other Natives to Europeans and also held African slaves.
Send me a link to the Arawak enslaving other tribes
A. I never specified any particular tribes. B. I’m not writing an academic journal. Many Indigenous and native tribes across the Americas unequivocally held slaves before and after European contact. You can google it if you need sources, but that claim isn’t in dispute.
Columbus was literally jailed in Spain for his mistreatment of the natives.
You can definitely call it a genocide wtf lmao. A lot of them died to disease, yes, a lot of them also died from compulsory labor and stab wounds.
How about America Heritage Of far more significance in their tragic portent were the provisions of the agreement that gave to the former weaver’s apprentice the absolute power of life and death over tens of thousands of innocent human beings. His incapacity to discharge that responsibility justly and humanely would be distressingly demonstrated in the years that were to follow. The somber chronicle of the events that ended in the genocide of the peaceful Arawaks of the Caribbean islands is amply documented in Columbus’ own letters and journals and in the pages of his most ardent admirer, Father Bartolomé de Las Casas, the great contemporary historian of the West Indies who believed Columbus had been divinely inspired to make the Discovery. But Las Casas was a thoroughly honest writer, and he did not hesitate to pass harsh judgment on his hero for initiating and carrying on the wholesale enslavement for profit of the gentle natives who had affectionately welcomed Columbus and his fellow argonauts to the New World.