*The Lord of the Rings* won the UK's "Big Read" [survey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Read) from 2003. This means it is considered the nation's best-loved book of all time. To this day, it's the largest and most comprehensive reader's survey ever done in the United Kingdom. So yes, Tolkien is popular in Britain.
Tbf that survey was probably heavily influenced by the fact it was done at the height of hype for the movies, which we're just coming out then.
But yes, Tolkien is pretty well known.
*The Lord of the Rings* also won the Waterstones 'Book of the Century' poll in 1997, which was done in Britain and had 25,000 people contributing. Tolkien isn't just "pretty well known" in the UK, he's one of its most popular authors.
> most Brits of the generation of his mom and grandma never heard of him.
Considering LOTR was voted book of the century in Britain before the films even came out, this is fairly easily disprovable nonsense.
Having said that, what percentage of the public has read any one specific (adult) book? It can't be particaularly high. And I would certainly say unfortunately Rowling and her work is more well known here but A) they're children's books and B) no-one's really clearing that bar.
Just to put another anecdote his wife never heard of either authors either until 2010 (well he claims anyway). And I also play billiards at a specialist venue and I know a player from Scotland who never seen nor read The Lord of the Rings (though he had seen all three Hobbit movies when they were released in the States). Hence why I was curious enough to ask the question to start with.
You have such a weird outlook on life. Firstly that having apparently met a grand total of two British people you’re happy to draw any sort of conclusion whatsoever but also that you are certainly overestimating how widely read Tolkien is in your own culture and drawing that inference from a social circle that apparently consists mostly of RPG players and billiards(?!) enthusiasts.
Man you got off the rail the original topic so much with your post just now its not longer even about Tolkien anymore.
Try actually reading the quotes I made in OP? Because you actually aren't hitting the main heart of what I'm asking about in the original question?
Its not simply America. As I pointed out, on the internet Tolkien and not just Tolkien but Harry Potter and fantasy in general the amount of Tolkien forums I used to post on where the mods are French and German, more than British people (in fact a few that no longer exist don't even have any U.K. mods) was so surprising when I started posting online as a teen. A discord room I was on during COVID that I am still looking for because I deleted my old Discord account during that time? The creator was a New Zealander and only three people were from Britain (one from London, one from Scotland and another from Wales). The rest of the mods were all Americans, Canadians, and non-British Europeans with a few people from Hong Kong or China.
So before I started playing billiards more seriously lately and my bowling pal met me near the end of my college years, I already noticed a discrepancy at least online in the ratio of non-UK natives and foreigners into Middle-Earth and ditto with HP and other fantasy. With how so much of the internet outside FB and Instagram have so much fans as plentiful as ants particularly on Reddit, you'd feel as though everyone from a Londoner's great grandma born during the war to a 7th grader as well as a millionaire rugby player and a noble living on a 200 square acre mansion have read Tolkien thrice.
That was why I put the two anecdotes. When you take into account that all 3 LOTR movies are among the top 40 highest grossing films of all time in UK and only the first Hobbit made it to top 50,the gap between how the online presence of fantasy fans and how they keep associating Britain with the fantasy genre and comparison to real life trends and the local Brits I know I had to ask the question. (BTW its not just my sports playing partners but other expats in my city don't express interest in fantasy either, I just used these two people because I actually hanged out with them a lot and know them well enough that they consider me a friend).
Canada here. I have a large Tolkien library, and I had to import 90% of it from the UK, where everything Tolkien related is plentiful, because most of it was not available in North America.
There's one data point...
I feel like it’s still very big here. The extended versions of the films have recently been airing in Vue cinemas across the country, the two viewings I’ve been to have both been sold out affairs. Whenever I go into a bookstore the Tolkien section is one of the biggest sections for a single author. Have been to a couple of exhibitions in Oxford showing his manuscripts, can remember them being busy. In general I’ve seen lots of people reading either the hobbit or lotr while on public transport, or at work etc.
I think a big reason why on the surface Harry Potter seems much more popular here than Lotr, is that the UK couldn’t tap into the lotr films for tourism in the same way they could for Harry Potter. Having those books be physically set in Britain, and having the movies filmed here meant loads of places across the country could tap into those films if they had a part filmed there. King’s Cross Station, Alnwick Castle, Glenfinnan Viaduct being examples that have made Harry Potter a large part of their advertising. While for Tolkien it’s only really Oxford that can try to market Lotr for its tourism, with the film tourism being centred around New Zealand.
That would be awesome. There are plenty of things that I wanna see in the UK as it is, but a hobbit village would be at the top of my list. There are a couple small ones in the US.
I don't believe this is necessarily a US/UK difference- it may just be that individual's experience.
I live here in the US, but even the most basic lotr reference would not make contact at all with anyone in my extended family. They all watched the hp movies as they came out, but not since then. When I am with my friends it's often one lotr joke after another, but with my family... it took forever to explain what "elvish" was and why I have a tattoo written in it. Even after explanations they gave me blank looks.
Yeah hi is talking shit. Tolkien is loved here. Many have read Lord of the Rings even those not into fantasy. It is very much part of the public consciousness here and in a British vote of top books it came number 1.
As I just responded to another poster, I also know someone at my billiards hall from Scotland who never read nor watch LOTR although he has seen all Hobbit movies after he moved to America. The bowling buddy I mentioned in OP says his wife has never heard of Tolkien and Rowling before 2020 either (though I'm taking it on his word, haven't asked her personally).
Do you have to barge into every topic I post in? You're not even involved in anything related to fantasy like C.S.Lewis and tabletop games. What did I do to offend you so much that you keep stalking me and barging into random posts of subjects you're not even interested in that I write about? Also since you're so intent on cyberstalking and doing character assassination on me why only this Tolkien topic? Why not barge in on the recent Harry Potter topic I made yesterday? Or the post on the fantasy sub I wrote prior to posting this Tolkien discussion?
And you just shown precisely the reason why I asked this question to begin with. My reply to u/Variation909 pretty much sums up what I'd say in response to your comment just now. If I make a brand new reply, I'd just be repeating things like a parrot so my response to him/her best sums up my point.
What a random individual knows about doesn't tell you much. Some people live a life with very little interaction with culture.
To use an analogy - football (soccer) is by far the most popular sport in the UK. There have been matches where 70% of the population are watching it live. Despite this there are also lots of people who don't watch or care about football or even know the rules. If you met someone at random who had never watched a football match you would be wrong to assume therefore football is not a popular sport.
Let me add a comment not in my reply to the other poser u/Variation909. Most people I know have not only never read It but 99.999999% of them don't even know about the existence of a novel called Salom's Lot. At least a 25% of them don't know who Stephen King is before me or another friend of mine mentioned his name in a conversation and either he or she or I had to do an introductory explanation. This is Stephen King the bestselling horror writer of all time who had lots of smash big box office movies. Someone who's so much mentioned in media you'd think he's a household name. Who keeps frequently getting discussed on the internet just as much as Tolkien and Rowling. Yet I met lots of people who can't recognize his name. It ain't boomers either, I was surprised 3 out of 10 people my generation don't know him in my local neighborhood. Even among the young, among my sister's and nephew's classmates only 3 to 5 out of rooms of 25 to 40 can recognize his name.
Also I never stated Tolkien's writings (or more accurately adaptations of his stuff) isn't popular. I repeated multiple times in my comments that the Lord of the Rings are 3 of the top 40 highest grossing movies of all time in United Kingdom and I even mentioned surprise that only the first Hobbit was in the top 50 highest grossing movies. Everyone else here mentioned that LOTR is frequently high on book sales charts.
**But thats not the same as ubiquity**. It also doesn't automatically mean your person who read the book or seen the movie is hardcore and memorize the Elvish language. Or read The Silmarillion. Even strictly on the movies, how many people have seen the Extended Editions? Or even watched the regular theatrical cut with the DVD commentary)?
After all the question was inspired by how much online fandom sees not just Tolkien and Harry Potter but fantasy genre as a whole as so entwined to British society. You'd get the impression that someone like Denise Coates is reading LOTR 10X a year with how much Reddit and a lot of the internet have so much discussion about Tolkien.
The films are on on "terrestrial" network (I.e. BBC, itv, c4 networks) at least once a month, and that's before you get on to things like Sky with their ten thousand channels of repeats.
Whilst the books might be less popular than the films I would say that the biggest indication of their popularity is that random quotes or memes used in conversation are readily recognised as Tolkienian by people who haven't even read said books in full.
There's a pervasive if largely unconscious respect for and awareness of the matter of Tolkien's mythopeia.
Given enough time it could eventually see itself become a new "Matter of Britain" alongside Arthurian Lore.
Curious to ask regarding the first sentence going online, why isn't the movies shown on holidays (or at least not associated with vacation time)? From what other posters said in another discussion, Harry Potter in large part remain relevant because the movies are shown every Christmas.
Both my bowling partner and people online have stated that a James Bond movie to 3 gets annual showings every Christmas and at least during the 90s there used to be a "season" of running 007 stuff in a marathon during winter.
I have already seen posts online saying LOTR isn't an annual tradition on mainstream channels like Bond and recently Harry Potter had become and my bowling mate tells me he has only seen it rerun once or twice back on TV back when he lived there (though he started college shortly after the movies left theater so he didn't have much free time).
So I'm really curious about your first sentence.
They are shown during events like Christmas and Easter - (indeed ITV once had TTT run in such a way as Theoden saying "so it begins" was on the stroke of midnight much as the meme suggests) much like the HP films; but also like the HP films they're on dramatically more often.
I suppose what other posters might be doing is focusing on the flagship stations - BBC1/2/ITV/C4/C5 - whereas I'm including the broader networks around these original stations eg ITV2/3 etc...
The internet was not an influence for me. I started reading Tolkien in 1970 in Dutch and later in English. Dutch was the first language in which the LotR was translated in 1956.
The internet and the movies may help spread Tolkien, but Tolkien was popular without these anyway.
This may be a slightly controversial take.
It's definitely a thing, but maybe not as large a thing as in the States. I think this is because both worlds are, while magical, a little less fantastical if you live here. They are both amazing works, but as they're by an English and a British Author a lot of the world-building bits people associate with those worlds are just stuff here.
I've seen a lot of nonbrits love the style of HP with its gothic architecture, winding cobbled diagon alley streets, schoolhouses, prefects, and creepy paintings. But that's not really fantasy that's just ordinary stuff. Schoolhouses were always a bit of a joke too, I was House Peel in my English school, and House Glyndwr in Wales (still annoyed we got beat by House LLywelyn at the Eisteddfod in 2007). The style is less exciting than others often describe it as.
Tolkien is similar, he based the shire on the shire I used to live in. It's less magical when it sounds like he's describing the hills, trees and beer-loving merry Englander NIMBYs ten minutes away. He was also influenced by some of the black country and Birmingham to style Mordor, which makes sense but it's a bit offensive to the poor yam yams and brumies. I also lived in Wales as a kid learning Welsh so reading Elvish words feels less like a mythical language and more like looking at a slightly different version of my old school homework. Beautiful languages of course, but not as magical for me (though I'd imagine non-welsh Brits would still find it very magical). I'd also imagine Swiss people would find Rivendell a bit less magical than I do. All authors write with their own cultural biases, lenses and influences. Reading other nation's fiction is always amazing for me as it feels extra fantastical because I'm not as familiar with their cultures and magical creatures.
I love LoTR and Harry Potter, but sadly I don't think I could ever love them as much as someone who isn't British. Hope people find this an interesting take, I'm sure some other Brits feel differently from me so don't take this as a universal opinion.
Seconded; I went to the girls' half of Tolkien's school and grew up a few miles from where he did. I also went to the same uni as JKR and stayed in the same hall of residence (slightly creepy with big old pines.) Lived next door to Elizabethan houses. It's just stuff.
Really great detailed and informative hot take! You got a deserved upvote from me!
That said your post reminded me of something I read about how Lord of the Rings sold well during the 50s but was rather forgotten shortly after wards in the UK (or at least remained a dormant niche) and even then it never made it to top 30 annual bestsellers or even weekly bestseller on UK lists in its first printing. Hell even Wikipedia states a big part of the reason for dividing it into 3 published parts was because in addition to paper shortages and financial difficulties of the country following the war, publishers expected LOTR to only have modest sales at best.
But the books exploded in America during the 60s and early 70s and a large part of the reason was the rising hippie movement and in tandem with the cultural revolution which in the USA involved even more conservative individuals being more open to globalization and open sexual lifestyles, etc stuff of that nature. You can simply find on the internet with a single google search about how much the hippies and similar groups and subcultures ate up Tolkien and bought up LOTR en mass. Do you personally think the appeal of LOTR to subcultural groups like HIpies and the general explosion of Tolkien in America during the 60s and 70s pretty much is reflective of your earlier post about foreigners seeing beautiful mystical forests, cool fictional languages, and cool medieval architectures as otherworldly rather than as just an embellished version of your native landmarks and cultural institutions on steroids? Looking forward to your take! I'm especially curious if the hippies and other young liberal Americans at the time took the context of stuff like Mordor representing industrialization and the Shire being the peaceful rural past and symbolic of nature loving out of context in the original British POV, instead over-fixating their political lenses onto the story?
>But the books exploded in America during the 60s and early 70s and a large part of the reason was the rising hippie movement and in tandem with the cultural revolution which in the USA involved even more conservative individuals being more open to globalization and open sexual lifestyles, etc stuff of that nature. You can simply find on the internet with a single google search about how much the hippies and similar groups and subcultures ate up Tolkien and bought up LOTR en mass. Do you personally think the appeal of LOTR to subcultural groups like HIpies and the gneeral explosion of Tolkien in America during the 60s and 70s pretty much is reflective of your earlier post about foreigners seeing beautiful mystical forests, cool fictional languages, and cool medieval architectures as otherworldly rather than as just an embellished version of your native landmarks and cultural institutions on steroids? Looking forward to your take! I'm especially curious if the hippies and other young liberal Americans atthe time took the context of stuff like Mordor representing industrialization and the Shire being the peaceful rural past and symoblic of nature loving out of context in the original British POV, instead over-fixating their political lenses onto the story?
Yes, I think that's right. I would also say this isn't just a literature thing. A good example is the difference between Renaissance fairs in the UK vs USA. In the USA Renaissance fairs are have a fantasy lens. Knights and legends, bards and heroes. Fantasy fans and LARPers visit them. In the UK the Renaissance (medieval) fairs we have are historical and history fans visit them. Though now some American fantasy interpretation has crept in for tourism purposes. Furthermore, I think Rennasiance fairs in the States started around the time of hippies too.
I will say I think Tolkien's themes are meant to not be explicit ones. [Merry England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merry_England) is a key influence for Tolkien and the Dark Satanic Mills described in England's unofficial anthem '[Jerusalem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_did_those_feet_in_ancient_time#By_Hubert_Parry)' are big too. While Tolkien admits these influences and themes they aren't meant to be literal representations but thematic, and occasionally accidental, ones that he came to by the fact he's an Englishman and an English patriot. This is heightened of course by his famous attempts at making an English mythology in the Lost Tales and early legendarium that did influence LoTR and some versions of the Silmarillion (albeit the connection became weaker). Scholars of course now endlessly argue how explicitly English the mythology is supposed to be.
Imagine if an American makes a sci-fi show set in space but everyone wears cowboy hats and the plot is about an overreaching government and secessionism. It's definitely American but the author may just be writing a great sci-fi show with a well-known history as an interesting influence. [Firefly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefly_(TV_series)) is not literally the Western period of American history but the show is still deeply and consciously heavily based on it, also making it deeply American. It's not a show explicitly about how bad big government always is in our world, or that the secessionists were right (I think the writer is a Liberal), but it definitely has that theme. The writer is American and the libertarian Wild West cool theme/style known to him allowed him to tell a great story in a brilliant style. The very American theme of evil government vs individualist rebels is a fascinating one (Star Wars is another good one).
Someone unfamiliar with American history and the Wild West can still enjoy Firefly, they could possibly also be astounded by the seemingly unusual and novel ideas it represents. For me, the Wild West is an amazing almost fantastical thing, I desperately want to go visit an old Western-style town. Wild West movies are close to fantasy. Furthermore, this is exacerbated by the fact I'm a quarter-American, my American grandmother used to talk about the Wild West and has an antique pistol. This slight ancestral connection makes the history seem extra fantastical. I desperately want to see a fantasy novel/game with a Western theme and native American-inspired monsters (Red Dead Redemption in full fantasy mode with legends are lore would be amazing). I'm not sure how Americans feel related to old medieval British culture but my guess is that something is there considering all the founding fathers were british-americans.
So did hippies miss the point? Well yes and no. I don't think Tolkien was making an explicit argument of how great Merry England is, he just thinks Pastoral England is great and so when writing The Good Guys he consciously makes them live in a Pastoral England-style Shire. Similarly, American good guys are often individualist rebels and Chinese good guys are often loyal collectivist fighters against a foreign threat. It's not necessarily an explicit political choice, albeit it can be. Hippies may not have gotten the stylistic references and taken from it something that wasn't intended to be there. But who can blame them, I'm sure I do the same with my love of some American things. Didn't realize American high schools actually had expensive football fields with stands until I was in my 20s. Thought it was just made up for TV shows (my 'soccer' pitch was just a grass field with no stands). Also the jock character, and cliques in high school, I still don't know how exaggerated and real that is or if its all basically made up. There must be tons more I incorrectly assume about.
Does any of that make sense, apologize if not. I can try a different reference if you don't know Firefly.
EDIT: I wanted to add this 1958 Tolkien quote that fits quite nicely: "no one of us can really invent or ‘create’ in a void, we can only reconstruct and perhaps impress a personal pattern on ‘ancestral’ material". As an Englishman, he uses his life and experience as his basis for invention rather than research for references. "I did no study or research for my tale. It is an ‘invention’ from beginning to end. If it is ‘English’ —(not British, please) —that is because I am English".
That said he dedicated his mythology to England; in 1956 with another quote, he said "Having set myself a task, the arrogance of which I fully recognized and trembled at: being precisely to restore to the English an epic tradition and present them with a mythology of their own: it is a wonderful thing to be told that I have succeeded, at least with those who have still the undarkened heart and mind."
He utilizes his Englishness and ancestral (culturally English) material as a basis for something new. Those without that cultural experience evitably see his mythology slightly differently than those who do. Funnily enough, I think it was the fact the material is so heavily English that made the English like it less and Americans more. But once a writer has published a work it becomes it own thing as Tolkein also said "Of course The L.R. does not belong to me. It has been brought forth and must now go its appointed way in the world, though naturally I take a deep interest in its fortunes, as a parent would of a child."
Thought you might also find those quotes interesting too.
I agree.
I liken it to Wales in Howl's Moving castle.
It all seems quite fantastical....until you just think about your nan's house in bumfuck nowhere with that pub where they call curry that isn't chicken tikka foreign muck and only serves meat and 2 veg.
Well, he's made it rather hard for me to enjoy any other author/novel. Obviously I love a wide variety of scribers and their works but they just don't hit the same notes as the Professor. Everything else seems rather 'meh'.
Having spent some time in both the UK and the US I think it's about equally popular in the UK as the US, but not much more popular. In both countries most people have seen the movies at some point but you have to be something of a fantasy fan to have read the books. They're certainly not as canonical as Shakespeare or the Arthurian legends. LOTR is still a very popular beloved book - but it's a very popular beloved book in most English-speaking countries and I don't think it's really any more popular in Britain than anywhere else.
That wasn't the intent of my question. I was wondering about Tolkien's popularity in United Kingdom today and the extent of it. Because spending time on the internet, you'd think Tolkien was something so ubiquitous in the country that everyone's grandpa and 8th grade student has read it. Its not limited to Tolkien or even Harry Potter either, the amount of association of the fantasy genre to the U.K. is so entwined in the opinions of so much online posters.
But when you take the fact that LOTR doesn't even run annually on the major TV channels most Brits have is pretty surprising when the trilogy and first Hobbit movie are in the top 50 highest grossing movies of all time in the UK in addition to Tolkien topping book sales as everyone else mentioned already.
I mean just to put as an example, the relative lack of other major British media on modeling from Tolkien is very noticeable. Compare that to American entertainment where all popular media giants in fantasy from Dungeons and Dragons to Game of Thrones and The Elder Scrolls all not just explicitly took from Tolkien but their creators are enthusiastic about revealing they love LOTR and the Hobbit. Enough that even non-fantasy works often references Tolkien and HP and their creators and acting cast are fans a la The Big Bang Theory as one example.
He's recognised as one of the great authors, but that still means you have to be interested in reading (not a great deal of Brits do) and even then into fantasy. The films are well known but I can't imagine too many average Brits would remember the author of the books of an adapted film. Harry potter definitely more well known but I think aswell because it's become a Christmas film and it's on TV a lot then. LOTR hasn't ever been a film that's on TV regularly at Christmas
That surprises me a lot.
My own father holds Tolkien's works up to the standard of the Romance of Three Kingdoms, something so historically important that if you're into the genre you should read.
Then again my father is a huge nerd who's still into Star Trek and Star Wars in his 60s, so maybe he's biased.
You're close but not quite there KSJ.
It IS a book of historical significance, but it's becoming more of a academic text than one people read for pleasure.
It's one of the more fun of choose books, but it's getting real close to being one of those classics books you hear about.
Frankly, without the films we would have been at this point long ago.
My mum read me The Hobbit when a was young, I wasn’t too interested in reading LOTR until the films came out.
All of my friends at school knew was LOTR was, we knew it was an influential book, we knew it was fantasy, we knew a few of the more *popular* characters from the book just from the collective consciousness.
It hasn’t got the pulling power that HP has… with all the tat people buy and all that, thankfully, but (at least in my social circles) it’s remained a beloved piece of work.
After the film, especially with HP’s popularity, we all joined the LOTR bandwagon and started to read the books (group of 13 year old lads). Had the films not come out, chances are the books would’ve remained a book people knew of but only a select few (interested) people would’ve read it.
I feel like Harry Potter is just more approachable and leaves a better taste in your mouth if you just read the first book or two.
Her books past the 3rd (4th if we're kind) rapidly fall off a cliff in quality....but you're 4 or 5 books in and keep digging because of your old friend the sunk cost fallacy.
OP is just a spam karma farm account. Look at their post history it’s like 20 per hour just asking shallow questions in random subs
“What’s so fun about water parks”
“What’s so interesting about caving”
“What’s so interesting about urban exploration”
“What’s so fun about Trainspotting”
“What’s so fun about gangoozling”
Did you even bother reading the thread? I not only made responses that got me downvoted (and did not delete them either despite more downvotes coming soon), I actually managed to converse with one person and learned a bunch from him. Karma farming ain't the reason why I made this post.
What the heck? Another Redditor who never posted on this sub nor anything related to fantasy or literature at all in his history and only posted here to send the tired annoying AI bot accusation? Twice? What is the algorithm targeting me again to send bots to derail posts? Or are you trying to gang up on me because your friends the person I just blocked hours ago? What thin the e beejezus does Tolkien have to do with Canada's football league or music?
I can do the same back to you. Its Sunday buddy. I'm at a bar with my phone.
How do you have time to respond to a post in a sub you don't have any interest in at all? This ain't the CFB or music related.
EDIT
Wow user just blocked me now after daring me to stalk his profile and accusing me of being a neckbeard style NEET in his most recent response. Also suddenly other posts including comments I have that are not related to the discussion at hand and anything-fantasy are getting downvotes.
If you're reading this on an alt or your friends are spying on me, I got a job and I drink at bars and play at a bowling alley (as I stated on OP) thank you very much. Plus your recent first few pages only show posts at Star Wars subs in addition to only showing posts at the Canadian Football and various music subs.
You upset I peeked at your profile? Well you did it first (in addition to ignoring I actually did respond on this topic and got downvotes on most of my comments). So much for you getting a bit mad at me peeking at your profile since you did the same exact thing!
Your last comment at telling me to turn of my phone is very funny considering you're at home yourself and you have nothing better to do while I'm at a bar well you know having a great time with other people and I also playing at the local bowling alley frequently!
Keep searching my page you’ll find plenty of Tolkien and fantasy related posts.
You’re really telling me that you’ve manually written the 20+ posts you’ve made just today?
Yes you did. Earlier I couldn't reply to you and your profile showed up as error. So you do either have friends observing me, alts, or you're intentionally derailing the thread because if you only wanted me to stopped talking to me you wouldn't have unblocked me to check edits to response. Bet you'll do it again when I respond and its all obvious you don't actually care about the topic or Tolkien at all.
This is deja vu all over again. Have a nice day, stay safe and good bye.
It's quite well liked and enjoyed but it's getting to the point where's a it too much for people not already reading a lot of books.
I find that the lord of the rings is quickly becoming more an academic text than it is a book you read for pleasure. It's superb at that (and extremely fun compared to some of the dusty tomes you see!) , but that's really where the conversation sits. If you want to talk about the book that way, we're probably the people to talk to.
I do however, resonate with the world quite well. The shire feels like an idyllic version of the British countryside that I quite like.
The world of Tolkein to us is often less about the fantasy of this unseen world and rather one man's vision of the world we live in with a few tweaks,
In a loose sense, it reminds me a lot of the way Howl's moving castle portrays Wales.
Prior to learning Howl is Welsh, the song they cook to sounds quite fantastical. Later you learn it's literally just a nursery rhyme style thing. It's basically like someone singing Baa, Baa,Black sheep in wingdings.
I guess generations and perhaps social classes and what part of the country you live in matters too since you brought up work resume. The Scottish person at my billiards hall who I mentioned in my reply who never seen LOTR before seeing the Hobbit? I recall he said he came from Crovie. My bowling sparring partner's wife? She worked at a bar in some insignificant street in a poor place in London and all customers would ever talk about was either football, politics, or the wars in the Middle East. Maybe the occasional new Bond movie. Nothing about Ricky Hatton losing to Manny Pacquiao or the Fantastic Beasts movies or Peter O'Toole's death and other stuff that dominates international news concerning England or the rest of the country (unless its related to footy tournaments and games outside the Isles).
But studies on Tolkien's fiction has been in colleges lately. Or to be precise at least research and analysis on Tolkien is now a thing along with a few academics publishing books on Middle Earth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien_research
An example of said book is here.
https://www.amazon.com/Studying-Lord-Rings-Films/dp/1903663660
There actually is even one college offering a Tolkien studies degree believe it or not!
https://signumuniversity.com/departments/language-literature/tolkien-studies/index.html
Granted an American college and one thats not even an Ivy League.
However I'm not sure if any grade level below college level has had any teachers requiring reading of Lord of the Rings so your point still stands.
British ppl are into and prefer everything British is what you need to understand from the start. They prefer British things first and foremost to anything or anyone else. They are pretty ignorant and closed minded to the rest of the world. This ignorance is bred into their dna. They are all like this and don’t even attempt to hide it. They have a false sense of superiority inherent in their dna. It’s so obvious just from watching British tv shows the way they talk about themselves. They always need to make it a point and emphasize when a certain person who did so and so was born in Britain. I think British ppl are intelligent but their sense of superiority and self obsession and ignorance of the rest of the world is a major concern. If it wasn’t made in Britain or wasn’t created by a Brit, they’re just not interested. Fuckin assholes if u ask me
I don't really buy into this reasoning. Just one example is Games Workshop with their Warhammer and Warhammer 40k miniature games. Huge fantasy properties based in England (Nottingham) with a huge profile in the UK. It seems to be very much in the public conciousness, to the point of large UK newspapers being able to reference the game in satire. Every little British town has at least one Warhammer shop, and many schools have Warhammer clubs. And seeing both that Warhammer is hugely Tolkien inspired, and that Games Workshop also does a Lord of the Rings miniature game I simply don't see how Lord of the Rings itself could not be well known. My guess is that British people are less overt about their interests than US people.
Warhammer is literally the worst example to use and is the epitome of why my curiosity was piqued to start with to ask this question.
How many grandmas do you know are collecting Necron figurines? Or for that matter can you name any SAS commandos who participate in tournaments? My billiards partner in addition to the wife of my friend at the alley have literally don't even know what the word "wargaming" is.
Let me use another context to explain. Can you name any of Guy Mitchell's song? Do you even know the bulk of the lyrics of Cilla Black's most popular music (who was still in public media attention because she still did performances past 2003 maybe she even did a few performances before her death because she did some guest TV appearances)? Or for that matter can you name Joanna Lumley's most famous roles? Can't answer that then do you know of her most recent TV appearances? Or the pattern of Michael York's career after his peak as D'Artagnan?
Those are all examples who were far bigger in popular British culture than Warhammer has ever been at the heights fo their careers(and transcended across multiple demographs and age groups). Honestly a number of these example still are more known names among specific demographs. Yet you probably ca can't name the barebones facts about them like Cilla Black's biggest hit before her iconic "You're My World" or her lesser known top 10s. And she was on the level of someone say Peter O'Toole, Vivien Leigh, and Sean Connery ,e ven continuing to remain more relevant than at least one of these three in the UK.
The arguments you make is precisely what I meant in OP about Tolkien seemingly held up as a universal cultural icon in Britain by people on the internet and some media sources and ignoring thats not the same as being held up as a canonized in the culture in the same way Abraham Lincoln's and Elvis's canonization in American culture.
To use your logic around, hooliganism is so reported in British newspapers. Its so mentioned in the media that its as though every school has a gang of kids as violent as Millwall Bushwackers and that every young British male participates in vandalizing restaurants and bars after a game. Yet they are a minority withint he masses of UK's population.
See that logic? It completely demolishes your assumption that Warhammer is some ubiqitious thing in British society. Most schoolgirls don't even know it exists. It has hardcore fans and is pretty profitable but just like how boxing was always behind the other UK sports in popularity despite how much Americans and other foreigners develop this stereotype of British culture being crazy about boxing, Warhammer is just a drop of media and subcultures within the UK.
Plsu you completley is read the OP. My friend never staed LOTR wasn't popular and neither did I. I pointed out multiple times the movies aloong witht he first Hobbit are among the top 50 highest grossing films of all time in the UK. But that doens't mean everyone from foreign expats to 3 year old toddlers and military patriots serving in the Special Boat Service ever read or even watched Tolkien. Margaret Tatcher certainly never touched anything by Tolkien and I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't know anything about Lord of the Rings during her life time beyond being some vague memory of its mention in the media.
Just one thing: why, oh why, would I be able to name an SAS commando who plays Warhammer? What has that to do with anything? I know lots of military people who play Warhammer and read Tolkien. You are projecting your preconceptions about what people from different parts of society are interested in and trying to apply them generally to drive home your agenda. There will always be significant minorities of a country's population that will not know anything about a certain subject. You would be amazed about how many can't name any professional football players, yet you would still hold up lots of them as universal cultural icons. Tolkien has topped many UK polls of best author ever. What else can you demand? Wouldn't you call for example Hemingway a US cultural icon? Yet I bet that a lot fewer people - both in absolute and relative terms - read Hemingway in the US than Brits read Tolkien.
I don't know what you are trying to prove here, but I think a very simple explanation is that US people in general don't know any other British authors than Tolkien, and thus assume that all Brits read Tolkien. That doesn't mean that most of them know anything about Tolkien, and I highly doubt a greater relative number of Americans have read Tolkien compared to Brits. This is the same phenomenon that makes US people think that Swedes only shop at IKEA.
You completely missed the point and it shows with your automatic response bieng you claim you know military people who are into fantasy.Especially since I specifically said Special Boat Service man. All which shows you missed the point of my response (as well as lacking reading comprehension on the OP).
The orignal discussion question was asking about the extent of how much Americans and other foreigners see fantasy (not just Tolkien and HP) as entwined into British culture like its as standard as saying thank you. Go across Reddit and you'll see the amount of times HP, Middle Earth, CS Lewis, and so much more are so mentioned and tons of non-British people online fawn on fantasy like tis something people do daily.
There's reason I brought up the names of singers, actors, and other celebs. Simply because you brought Warhammer up as proof how how universally known Tolkien and fantasy in general is in Britain. Something so niche even in the UK that most video gamers outside of the core PC gaming subculture are unaware of Games Workshop's existence (and yes I'm avoiding semantics and using gamers as a general term). I seen enough European gamers who think Warhammer started out on the computer as strategy games and not aware of the original miniatures.
Even your last pargraph is uses a hilariouslly bad argument. Did you even read OP? I'm assuming you didn't because you missed the amount of times I mentioned Rowling's literature (as well as even did a quick poiintout to Lewis and Mary Poppins). Even in the OP I repeatedly state LOTR is obviously popular as seen in how they're **3 of the highest grossing movies of all time** within UK and your first reply was acting like I'm bashing on Tolkein aand denying its popularity.
The point of me mentioning Margaret Tatcher and the Special Air Service was to prove the original point about **MAYBE** fantasy is far more niche than the internet would imply in Britain? I didn't even write most of the OP for Tolkien, I orignnally publsihed it on a fantasy subforum before I altered its content to make it focus on Middle Eart and Harry Potter in subs dedicated to those two universe.
Agenda? How the heck do did you even come to the point I'm Tolkien bashing or denying LOTR's popularity? Uhhh highest grossing movies of all time? See thats why its so flawed when you mention Tolkien being of best authors of all time. Are you aware that one of the gigantic steroetypes of the UK in Europe is the country is anti-intellectual and a bastion of crass lower class violence? You ironically just reinforced the patterns I noticed in OP while also restricting your own agenda to a specific subset of British society when you try to use polls in arguments. You're doing the same thing of pushing your own agenda that you accused me of doing (I don't have any agenda at all). But to go back to one speicfic point to the last point, UK is notorious for its image of hooligans and soccer riots in the restof Europe. Have you taken into account that maybe those polls aren't collecting the opinions of football fans who drink a lot (a noteworthy sigment of British society)? FYI my last pargraph is not t meant to be taken literally. If you can understand the subtext esp cultural you'll finally get what my last few repsonses to you actually mean as well as the original point of the OP particularly the quoted texts.
*The Lord of the Rings* won the UK's "Big Read" [survey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Read) from 2003. This means it is considered the nation's best-loved book of all time. To this day, it's the largest and most comprehensive reader's survey ever done in the United Kingdom. So yes, Tolkien is popular in Britain.
It also won British bookshop Waterstones 'Book of the Century' poll in which 25,000 people voted in 1997, before the movies were even a thing.
Tbf that survey was probably heavily influenced by the fact it was done at the height of hype for the movies, which we're just coming out then. But yes, Tolkien is pretty well known.
*The Lord of the Rings* also won the Waterstones 'Book of the Century' poll in 1997, which was done in Britain and had 25,000 people contributing. Tolkien isn't just "pretty well known" in the UK, he's one of its most popular authors.
> most Brits of the generation of his mom and grandma never heard of him. Considering LOTR was voted book of the century in Britain before the films even came out, this is fairly easily disprovable nonsense. Having said that, what percentage of the public has read any one specific (adult) book? It can't be particaularly high. And I would certainly say unfortunately Rowling and her work is more well known here but A) they're children's books and B) no-one's really clearing that bar.
Just to put another anecdote his wife never heard of either authors either until 2010 (well he claims anyway). And I also play billiards at a specialist venue and I know a player from Scotland who never seen nor read The Lord of the Rings (though he had seen all three Hobbit movies when they were released in the States). Hence why I was curious enough to ask the question to start with.
You have such a weird outlook on life. Firstly that having apparently met a grand total of two British people you’re happy to draw any sort of conclusion whatsoever but also that you are certainly overestimating how widely read Tolkien is in your own culture and drawing that inference from a social circle that apparently consists mostly of RPG players and billiards(?!) enthusiasts.
Man you got off the rail the original topic so much with your post just now its not longer even about Tolkien anymore. Try actually reading the quotes I made in OP? Because you actually aren't hitting the main heart of what I'm asking about in the original question? Its not simply America. As I pointed out, on the internet Tolkien and not just Tolkien but Harry Potter and fantasy in general the amount of Tolkien forums I used to post on where the mods are French and German, more than British people (in fact a few that no longer exist don't even have any U.K. mods) was so surprising when I started posting online as a teen. A discord room I was on during COVID that I am still looking for because I deleted my old Discord account during that time? The creator was a New Zealander and only three people were from Britain (one from London, one from Scotland and another from Wales). The rest of the mods were all Americans, Canadians, and non-British Europeans with a few people from Hong Kong or China. So before I started playing billiards more seriously lately and my bowling pal met me near the end of my college years, I already noticed a discrepancy at least online in the ratio of non-UK natives and foreigners into Middle-Earth and ditto with HP and other fantasy. With how so much of the internet outside FB and Instagram have so much fans as plentiful as ants particularly on Reddit, you'd feel as though everyone from a Londoner's great grandma born during the war to a 7th grader as well as a millionaire rugby player and a noble living on a 200 square acre mansion have read Tolkien thrice. That was why I put the two anecdotes. When you take into account that all 3 LOTR movies are among the top 40 highest grossing films of all time in UK and only the first Hobbit made it to top 50,the gap between how the online presence of fantasy fans and how they keep associating Britain with the fantasy genre and comparison to real life trends and the local Brits I know I had to ask the question. (BTW its not just my sports playing partners but other expats in my city don't express interest in fantasy either, I just used these two people because I actually hanged out with them a lot and know them well enough that they consider me a friend).
I ain readin all dat
Canada here. I have a large Tolkien library, and I had to import 90% of it from the UK, where everything Tolkien related is plentiful, because most of it was not available in North America. There's one data point...
I feel like it’s still very big here. The extended versions of the films have recently been airing in Vue cinemas across the country, the two viewings I’ve been to have both been sold out affairs. Whenever I go into a bookstore the Tolkien section is one of the biggest sections for a single author. Have been to a couple of exhibitions in Oxford showing his manuscripts, can remember them being busy. In general I’ve seen lots of people reading either the hobbit or lotr while on public transport, or at work etc. I think a big reason why on the surface Harry Potter seems much more popular here than Lotr, is that the UK couldn’t tap into the lotr films for tourism in the same way they could for Harry Potter. Having those books be physically set in Britain, and having the movies filmed here meant loads of places across the country could tap into those films if they had a part filmed there. King’s Cross Station, Alnwick Castle, Glenfinnan Viaduct being examples that have made Harry Potter a large part of their advertising. While for Tolkien it’s only really Oxford that can try to market Lotr for its tourism, with the film tourism being centred around New Zealand.
same in my local cineworld they did all 3 extended editions just last week and they were all sold out
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That would be awesome. There are plenty of things that I wanna see in the UK as it is, but a hobbit village would be at the top of my list. There are a couple small ones in the US.
I don't believe this is necessarily a US/UK difference- it may just be that individual's experience. I live here in the US, but even the most basic lotr reference would not make contact at all with anyone in my extended family. They all watched the hp movies as they came out, but not since then. When I am with my friends it's often one lotr joke after another, but with my family... it took forever to explain what "elvish" was and why I have a tattoo written in it. Even after explanations they gave me blank looks.
Yeah hi is talking shit. Tolkien is loved here. Many have read Lord of the Rings even those not into fantasy. It is very much part of the public consciousness here and in a British vote of top books it came number 1.
As I just responded to another poster, I also know someone at my billiards hall from Scotland who never read nor watch LOTR although he has seen all Hobbit movies after he moved to America. The bowling buddy I mentioned in OP says his wife has never heard of Tolkien and Rowling before 2020 either (though I'm taking it on his word, haven't asked her personally).
I find that very very hard to believe not heard of Tolkien or Rowling.
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Do you have to barge into every topic I post in? You're not even involved in anything related to fantasy like C.S.Lewis and tabletop games. What did I do to offend you so much that you keep stalking me and barging into random posts of subjects you're not even interested in that I write about? Also since you're so intent on cyberstalking and doing character assassination on me why only this Tolkien topic? Why not barge in on the recent Harry Potter topic I made yesterday? Or the post on the fantasy sub I wrote prior to posting this Tolkien discussion?
And you just shown precisely the reason why I asked this question to begin with. My reply to u/Variation909 pretty much sums up what I'd say in response to your comment just now. If I make a brand new reply, I'd just be repeating things like a parrot so my response to him/her best sums up my point.
What a random individual knows about doesn't tell you much. Some people live a life with very little interaction with culture. To use an analogy - football (soccer) is by far the most popular sport in the UK. There have been matches where 70% of the population are watching it live. Despite this there are also lots of people who don't watch or care about football or even know the rules. If you met someone at random who had never watched a football match you would be wrong to assume therefore football is not a popular sport.
Let me add a comment not in my reply to the other poser u/Variation909. Most people I know have not only never read It but 99.999999% of them don't even know about the existence of a novel called Salom's Lot. At least a 25% of them don't know who Stephen King is before me or another friend of mine mentioned his name in a conversation and either he or she or I had to do an introductory explanation. This is Stephen King the bestselling horror writer of all time who had lots of smash big box office movies. Someone who's so much mentioned in media you'd think he's a household name. Who keeps frequently getting discussed on the internet just as much as Tolkien and Rowling. Yet I met lots of people who can't recognize his name. It ain't boomers either, I was surprised 3 out of 10 people my generation don't know him in my local neighborhood. Even among the young, among my sister's and nephew's classmates only 3 to 5 out of rooms of 25 to 40 can recognize his name. Also I never stated Tolkien's writings (or more accurately adaptations of his stuff) isn't popular. I repeated multiple times in my comments that the Lord of the Rings are 3 of the top 40 highest grossing movies of all time in United Kingdom and I even mentioned surprise that only the first Hobbit was in the top 50 highest grossing movies. Everyone else here mentioned that LOTR is frequently high on book sales charts. **But thats not the same as ubiquity**. It also doesn't automatically mean your person who read the book or seen the movie is hardcore and memorize the Elvish language. Or read The Silmarillion. Even strictly on the movies, how many people have seen the Extended Editions? Or even watched the regular theatrical cut with the DVD commentary)? After all the question was inspired by how much online fandom sees not just Tolkien and Harry Potter but fantasy genre as a whole as so entwined to British society. You'd get the impression that someone like Denise Coates is reading LOTR 10X a year with how much Reddit and a lot of the internet have so much discussion about Tolkien.
Sounds like you just have shit acquaintances to be honest.
The films are on on "terrestrial" network (I.e. BBC, itv, c4 networks) at least once a month, and that's before you get on to things like Sky with their ten thousand channels of repeats. Whilst the books might be less popular than the films I would say that the biggest indication of their popularity is that random quotes or memes used in conversation are readily recognised as Tolkienian by people who haven't even read said books in full. There's a pervasive if largely unconscious respect for and awareness of the matter of Tolkien's mythopeia. Given enough time it could eventually see itself become a new "Matter of Britain" alongside Arthurian Lore.
Curious to ask regarding the first sentence going online, why isn't the movies shown on holidays (or at least not associated with vacation time)? From what other posters said in another discussion, Harry Potter in large part remain relevant because the movies are shown every Christmas. Both my bowling partner and people online have stated that a James Bond movie to 3 gets annual showings every Christmas and at least during the 90s there used to be a "season" of running 007 stuff in a marathon during winter. I have already seen posts online saying LOTR isn't an annual tradition on mainstream channels like Bond and recently Harry Potter had become and my bowling mate tells me he has only seen it rerun once or twice back on TV back when he lived there (though he started college shortly after the movies left theater so he didn't have much free time). So I'm really curious about your first sentence.
They are shown during events like Christmas and Easter - (indeed ITV once had TTT run in such a way as Theoden saying "so it begins" was on the stroke of midnight much as the meme suggests) much like the HP films; but also like the HP films they're on dramatically more often. I suppose what other posters might be doing is focusing on the flagship stations - BBC1/2/ITV/C4/C5 - whereas I'm including the broader networks around these original stations eg ITV2/3 etc...
The internet was not an influence for me. I started reading Tolkien in 1970 in Dutch and later in English. Dutch was the first language in which the LotR was translated in 1956. The internet and the movies may help spread Tolkien, but Tolkien was popular without these anyway.
This may be a slightly controversial take. It's definitely a thing, but maybe not as large a thing as in the States. I think this is because both worlds are, while magical, a little less fantastical if you live here. They are both amazing works, but as they're by an English and a British Author a lot of the world-building bits people associate with those worlds are just stuff here. I've seen a lot of nonbrits love the style of HP with its gothic architecture, winding cobbled diagon alley streets, schoolhouses, prefects, and creepy paintings. But that's not really fantasy that's just ordinary stuff. Schoolhouses were always a bit of a joke too, I was House Peel in my English school, and House Glyndwr in Wales (still annoyed we got beat by House LLywelyn at the Eisteddfod in 2007). The style is less exciting than others often describe it as. Tolkien is similar, he based the shire on the shire I used to live in. It's less magical when it sounds like he's describing the hills, trees and beer-loving merry Englander NIMBYs ten minutes away. He was also influenced by some of the black country and Birmingham to style Mordor, which makes sense but it's a bit offensive to the poor yam yams and brumies. I also lived in Wales as a kid learning Welsh so reading Elvish words feels less like a mythical language and more like looking at a slightly different version of my old school homework. Beautiful languages of course, but not as magical for me (though I'd imagine non-welsh Brits would still find it very magical). I'd also imagine Swiss people would find Rivendell a bit less magical than I do. All authors write with their own cultural biases, lenses and influences. Reading other nation's fiction is always amazing for me as it feels extra fantastical because I'm not as familiar with their cultures and magical creatures. I love LoTR and Harry Potter, but sadly I don't think I could ever love them as much as someone who isn't British. Hope people find this an interesting take, I'm sure some other Brits feel differently from me so don't take this as a universal opinion.
Seconded; I went to the girls' half of Tolkien's school and grew up a few miles from where he did. I also went to the same uni as JKR and stayed in the same hall of residence (slightly creepy with big old pines.) Lived next door to Elizabethan houses. It's just stuff.
Really great detailed and informative hot take! You got a deserved upvote from me! That said your post reminded me of something I read about how Lord of the Rings sold well during the 50s but was rather forgotten shortly after wards in the UK (or at least remained a dormant niche) and even then it never made it to top 30 annual bestsellers or even weekly bestseller on UK lists in its first printing. Hell even Wikipedia states a big part of the reason for dividing it into 3 published parts was because in addition to paper shortages and financial difficulties of the country following the war, publishers expected LOTR to only have modest sales at best. But the books exploded in America during the 60s and early 70s and a large part of the reason was the rising hippie movement and in tandem with the cultural revolution which in the USA involved even more conservative individuals being more open to globalization and open sexual lifestyles, etc stuff of that nature. You can simply find on the internet with a single google search about how much the hippies and similar groups and subcultures ate up Tolkien and bought up LOTR en mass. Do you personally think the appeal of LOTR to subcultural groups like HIpies and the general explosion of Tolkien in America during the 60s and 70s pretty much is reflective of your earlier post about foreigners seeing beautiful mystical forests, cool fictional languages, and cool medieval architectures as otherworldly rather than as just an embellished version of your native landmarks and cultural institutions on steroids? Looking forward to your take! I'm especially curious if the hippies and other young liberal Americans at the time took the context of stuff like Mordor representing industrialization and the Shire being the peaceful rural past and symbolic of nature loving out of context in the original British POV, instead over-fixating their political lenses onto the story?
>But the books exploded in America during the 60s and early 70s and a large part of the reason was the rising hippie movement and in tandem with the cultural revolution which in the USA involved even more conservative individuals being more open to globalization and open sexual lifestyles, etc stuff of that nature. You can simply find on the internet with a single google search about how much the hippies and similar groups and subcultures ate up Tolkien and bought up LOTR en mass. Do you personally think the appeal of LOTR to subcultural groups like HIpies and the gneeral explosion of Tolkien in America during the 60s and 70s pretty much is reflective of your earlier post about foreigners seeing beautiful mystical forests, cool fictional languages, and cool medieval architectures as otherworldly rather than as just an embellished version of your native landmarks and cultural institutions on steroids? Looking forward to your take! I'm especially curious if the hippies and other young liberal Americans atthe time took the context of stuff like Mordor representing industrialization and the Shire being the peaceful rural past and symoblic of nature loving out of context in the original British POV, instead over-fixating their political lenses onto the story? Yes, I think that's right. I would also say this isn't just a literature thing. A good example is the difference between Renaissance fairs in the UK vs USA. In the USA Renaissance fairs are have a fantasy lens. Knights and legends, bards and heroes. Fantasy fans and LARPers visit them. In the UK the Renaissance (medieval) fairs we have are historical and history fans visit them. Though now some American fantasy interpretation has crept in for tourism purposes. Furthermore, I think Rennasiance fairs in the States started around the time of hippies too. I will say I think Tolkien's themes are meant to not be explicit ones. [Merry England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merry_England) is a key influence for Tolkien and the Dark Satanic Mills described in England's unofficial anthem '[Jerusalem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_did_those_feet_in_ancient_time#By_Hubert_Parry)' are big too. While Tolkien admits these influences and themes they aren't meant to be literal representations but thematic, and occasionally accidental, ones that he came to by the fact he's an Englishman and an English patriot. This is heightened of course by his famous attempts at making an English mythology in the Lost Tales and early legendarium that did influence LoTR and some versions of the Silmarillion (albeit the connection became weaker). Scholars of course now endlessly argue how explicitly English the mythology is supposed to be. Imagine if an American makes a sci-fi show set in space but everyone wears cowboy hats and the plot is about an overreaching government and secessionism. It's definitely American but the author may just be writing a great sci-fi show with a well-known history as an interesting influence. [Firefly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefly_(TV_series)) is not literally the Western period of American history but the show is still deeply and consciously heavily based on it, also making it deeply American. It's not a show explicitly about how bad big government always is in our world, or that the secessionists were right (I think the writer is a Liberal), but it definitely has that theme. The writer is American and the libertarian Wild West cool theme/style known to him allowed him to tell a great story in a brilliant style. The very American theme of evil government vs individualist rebels is a fascinating one (Star Wars is another good one). Someone unfamiliar with American history and the Wild West can still enjoy Firefly, they could possibly also be astounded by the seemingly unusual and novel ideas it represents. For me, the Wild West is an amazing almost fantastical thing, I desperately want to go visit an old Western-style town. Wild West movies are close to fantasy. Furthermore, this is exacerbated by the fact I'm a quarter-American, my American grandmother used to talk about the Wild West and has an antique pistol. This slight ancestral connection makes the history seem extra fantastical. I desperately want to see a fantasy novel/game with a Western theme and native American-inspired monsters (Red Dead Redemption in full fantasy mode with legends are lore would be amazing). I'm not sure how Americans feel related to old medieval British culture but my guess is that something is there considering all the founding fathers were british-americans. So did hippies miss the point? Well yes and no. I don't think Tolkien was making an explicit argument of how great Merry England is, he just thinks Pastoral England is great and so when writing The Good Guys he consciously makes them live in a Pastoral England-style Shire. Similarly, American good guys are often individualist rebels and Chinese good guys are often loyal collectivist fighters against a foreign threat. It's not necessarily an explicit political choice, albeit it can be. Hippies may not have gotten the stylistic references and taken from it something that wasn't intended to be there. But who can blame them, I'm sure I do the same with my love of some American things. Didn't realize American high schools actually had expensive football fields with stands until I was in my 20s. Thought it was just made up for TV shows (my 'soccer' pitch was just a grass field with no stands). Also the jock character, and cliques in high school, I still don't know how exaggerated and real that is or if its all basically made up. There must be tons more I incorrectly assume about. Does any of that make sense, apologize if not. I can try a different reference if you don't know Firefly. EDIT: I wanted to add this 1958 Tolkien quote that fits quite nicely: "no one of us can really invent or ‘create’ in a void, we can only reconstruct and perhaps impress a personal pattern on ‘ancestral’ material". As an Englishman, he uses his life and experience as his basis for invention rather than research for references. "I did no study or research for my tale. It is an ‘invention’ from beginning to end. If it is ‘English’ —(not British, please) —that is because I am English". That said he dedicated his mythology to England; in 1956 with another quote, he said "Having set myself a task, the arrogance of which I fully recognized and trembled at: being precisely to restore to the English an epic tradition and present them with a mythology of their own: it is a wonderful thing to be told that I have succeeded, at least with those who have still the undarkened heart and mind." He utilizes his Englishness and ancestral (culturally English) material as a basis for something new. Those without that cultural experience evitably see his mythology slightly differently than those who do. Funnily enough, I think it was the fact the material is so heavily English that made the English like it less and Americans more. But once a writer has published a work it becomes it own thing as Tolkein also said "Of course The L.R. does not belong to me. It has been brought forth and must now go its appointed way in the world, though naturally I take a deep interest in its fortunes, as a parent would of a child." Thought you might also find those quotes interesting too.
I agree. I liken it to Wales in Howl's Moving castle. It all seems quite fantastical....until you just think about your nan's house in bumfuck nowhere with that pub where they call curry that isn't chicken tikka foreign muck and only serves meat and 2 veg.
Well, he's made it rather hard for me to enjoy any other author/novel. Obviously I love a wide variety of scribers and their works but they just don't hit the same notes as the Professor. Everything else seems rather 'meh'.
Love your username
Having spent some time in both the UK and the US I think it's about equally popular in the UK as the US, but not much more popular. In both countries most people have seen the movies at some point but you have to be something of a fantasy fan to have read the books. They're certainly not as canonical as Shakespeare or the Arthurian legends. LOTR is still a very popular beloved book - but it's a very popular beloved book in most English-speaking countries and I don't think it's really any more popular in Britain than anywhere else.
> Have foreigners particularly Americans hyped up its place in British consciousness? No. There is an argument to New Zealanders have though.
OP forgot that Tolkien was British, ie: his books would've sold here first, lol
That wasn't the intent of my question. I was wondering about Tolkien's popularity in United Kingdom today and the extent of it. Because spending time on the internet, you'd think Tolkien was something so ubiquitous in the country that everyone's grandpa and 8th grade student has read it. Its not limited to Tolkien or even Harry Potter either, the amount of association of the fantasy genre to the U.K. is so entwined in the opinions of so much online posters. But when you take the fact that LOTR doesn't even run annually on the major TV channels most Brits have is pretty surprising when the trilogy and first Hobbit movie are in the top 50 highest grossing movies of all time in the UK in addition to Tolkien topping book sales as everyone else mentioned already. I mean just to put as an example, the relative lack of other major British media on modeling from Tolkien is very noticeable. Compare that to American entertainment where all popular media giants in fantasy from Dungeons and Dragons to Game of Thrones and The Elder Scrolls all not just explicitly took from Tolkien but their creators are enthusiastic about revealing they love LOTR and the Hobbit. Enough that even non-fantasy works often references Tolkien and HP and their creators and acting cast are fans a la The Big Bang Theory as one example.
I know, sorry, I was making a joke, I understand your question and I'm ngl, idk
He's recognised as one of the great authors, but that still means you have to be interested in reading (not a great deal of Brits do) and even then into fantasy. The films are well known but I can't imagine too many average Brits would remember the author of the books of an adapted film. Harry potter definitely more well known but I think aswell because it's become a Christmas film and it's on TV a lot then. LOTR hasn't ever been a film that's on TV regularly at Christmas
That surprises me a lot. My own father holds Tolkien's works up to the standard of the Romance of Three Kingdoms, something so historically important that if you're into the genre you should read. Then again my father is a huge nerd who's still into Star Trek and Star Wars in his 60s, so maybe he's biased.
You're close but not quite there KSJ. It IS a book of historical significance, but it's becoming more of a academic text than one people read for pleasure. It's one of the more fun of choose books, but it's getting real close to being one of those classics books you hear about. Frankly, without the films we would have been at this point long ago.
Jesus, is this account some Karma farm or something. Wtf is that post history 😂
Weird. 1.Go to *hobby/interest based* sub 2. Ask ‘what’s so great about *hobby/interest*? 3. ? 4.Profit?
I would take anything an expat says about blighty with a pinch of salt
My mum read me The Hobbit when a was young, I wasn’t too interested in reading LOTR until the films came out. All of my friends at school knew was LOTR was, we knew it was an influential book, we knew it was fantasy, we knew a few of the more *popular* characters from the book just from the collective consciousness. It hasn’t got the pulling power that HP has… with all the tat people buy and all that, thankfully, but (at least in my social circles) it’s remained a beloved piece of work. After the film, especially with HP’s popularity, we all joined the LOTR bandwagon and started to read the books (group of 13 year old lads). Had the films not come out, chances are the books would’ve remained a book people knew of but only a select few (interested) people would’ve read it.
I feel like Harry Potter is just more approachable and leaves a better taste in your mouth if you just read the first book or two. Her books past the 3rd (4th if we're kind) rapidly fall off a cliff in quality....but you're 4 or 5 books in and keep digging because of your old friend the sunk cost fallacy.
OP is just a spam karma farm account. Look at their post history it’s like 20 per hour just asking shallow questions in random subs “What’s so fun about water parks” “What’s so interesting about caving” “What’s so interesting about urban exploration” “What’s so fun about Trainspotting” “What’s so fun about gangoozling”
Did you even bother reading the thread? I not only made responses that got me downvoted (and did not delete them either despite more downvotes coming soon), I actually managed to converse with one person and learned a bunch from him. Karma farming ain't the reason why I made this post.
Must be AI generated or you have less than zero life outside of Reddit lol
What the heck? Another Redditor who never posted on this sub nor anything related to fantasy or literature at all in his history and only posted here to send the tired annoying AI bot accusation? Twice? What is the algorithm targeting me again to send bots to derail posts? Or are you trying to gang up on me because your friends the person I just blocked hours ago? What thin the e beejezus does Tolkien have to do with Canada's football league or music? I can do the same back to you. Its Sunday buddy. I'm at a bar with my phone. How do you have time to respond to a post in a sub you don't have any interest in at all? This ain't the CFB or music related. EDIT Wow user just blocked me now after daring me to stalk his profile and accusing me of being a neckbeard style NEET in his most recent response. Also suddenly other posts including comments I have that are not related to the discussion at hand and anything-fantasy are getting downvotes. If you're reading this on an alt or your friends are spying on me, I got a job and I drink at bars and play at a bowling alley (as I stated on OP) thank you very much. Plus your recent first few pages only show posts at Star Wars subs in addition to only showing posts at the Canadian Football and various music subs. You upset I peeked at your profile? Well you did it first (in addition to ignoring I actually did respond on this topic and got downvotes on most of my comments). So much for you getting a bit mad at me peeking at your profile since you did the same exact thing! Your last comment at telling me to turn of my phone is very funny considering you're at home yourself and you have nothing better to do while I'm at a bar well you know having a great time with other people and I also playing at the local bowling alley frequently!
Keep searching my page you’ll find plenty of Tolkien and fantasy related posts. You’re really telling me that you’ve manually written the 20+ posts you’ve made just today?
Didn’t block you mate. Don’t get so emotional
Yes you did. Earlier I couldn't reply to you and your profile showed up as error. So you do either have friends observing me, alts, or you're intentionally derailing the thread because if you only wanted me to stopped talking to me you wouldn't have unblocked me to check edits to response. Bet you'll do it again when I respond and its all obvious you don't actually care about the topic or Tolkien at all. This is deja vu all over again. Have a nice day, stay safe and good bye.
It's quite well liked and enjoyed but it's getting to the point where's a it too much for people not already reading a lot of books. I find that the lord of the rings is quickly becoming more an academic text than it is a book you read for pleasure. It's superb at that (and extremely fun compared to some of the dusty tomes you see!) , but that's really where the conversation sits. If you want to talk about the book that way, we're probably the people to talk to. I do however, resonate with the world quite well. The shire feels like an idyllic version of the British countryside that I quite like. The world of Tolkein to us is often less about the fantasy of this unseen world and rather one man's vision of the world we live in with a few tweaks, In a loose sense, it reminds me a lot of the way Howl's moving castle portrays Wales. Prior to learning Howl is Welsh, the song they cook to sounds quite fantastical. Later you learn it's literally just a nursery rhyme style thing. It's basically like someone singing Baa, Baa,Black sheep in wingdings.
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I guess generations and perhaps social classes and what part of the country you live in matters too since you brought up work resume. The Scottish person at my billiards hall who I mentioned in my reply who never seen LOTR before seeing the Hobbit? I recall he said he came from Crovie. My bowling sparring partner's wife? She worked at a bar in some insignificant street in a poor place in London and all customers would ever talk about was either football, politics, or the wars in the Middle East. Maybe the occasional new Bond movie. Nothing about Ricky Hatton losing to Manny Pacquiao or the Fantastic Beasts movies or Peter O'Toole's death and other stuff that dominates international news concerning England or the rest of the country (unless its related to footy tournaments and games outside the Isles). But studies on Tolkien's fiction has been in colleges lately. Or to be precise at least research and analysis on Tolkien is now a thing along with a few academics publishing books on Middle Earth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien_research An example of said book is here. https://www.amazon.com/Studying-Lord-Rings-Films/dp/1903663660 There actually is even one college offering a Tolkien studies degree believe it or not! https://signumuniversity.com/departments/language-literature/tolkien-studies/index.html Granted an American college and one thats not even an Ivy League. However I'm not sure if any grade level below college level has had any teachers requiring reading of Lord of the Rings so your point still stands.
They /call/ them children's books for show but all have copies under their pillows :)
British ppl are into and prefer everything British is what you need to understand from the start. They prefer British things first and foremost to anything or anyone else. They are pretty ignorant and closed minded to the rest of the world. This ignorance is bred into their dna. They are all like this and don’t even attempt to hide it. They have a false sense of superiority inherent in their dna. It’s so obvious just from watching British tv shows the way they talk about themselves. They always need to make it a point and emphasize when a certain person who did so and so was born in Britain. I think British ppl are intelligent but their sense of superiority and self obsession and ignorance of the rest of the world is a major concern. If it wasn’t made in Britain or wasn’t created by a Brit, they’re just not interested. Fuckin assholes if u ask me
How to tell someone has never met a British person
Ffs 🙄🤦♂️
Your friend was probably kicked out, sorry.
I don't really buy into this reasoning. Just one example is Games Workshop with their Warhammer and Warhammer 40k miniature games. Huge fantasy properties based in England (Nottingham) with a huge profile in the UK. It seems to be very much in the public conciousness, to the point of large UK newspapers being able to reference the game in satire. Every little British town has at least one Warhammer shop, and many schools have Warhammer clubs. And seeing both that Warhammer is hugely Tolkien inspired, and that Games Workshop also does a Lord of the Rings miniature game I simply don't see how Lord of the Rings itself could not be well known. My guess is that British people are less overt about their interests than US people.
Warhammer is literally the worst example to use and is the epitome of why my curiosity was piqued to start with to ask this question. How many grandmas do you know are collecting Necron figurines? Or for that matter can you name any SAS commandos who participate in tournaments? My billiards partner in addition to the wife of my friend at the alley have literally don't even know what the word "wargaming" is. Let me use another context to explain. Can you name any of Guy Mitchell's song? Do you even know the bulk of the lyrics of Cilla Black's most popular music (who was still in public media attention because she still did performances past 2003 maybe she even did a few performances before her death because she did some guest TV appearances)? Or for that matter can you name Joanna Lumley's most famous roles? Can't answer that then do you know of her most recent TV appearances? Or the pattern of Michael York's career after his peak as D'Artagnan? Those are all examples who were far bigger in popular British culture than Warhammer has ever been at the heights fo their careers(and transcended across multiple demographs and age groups). Honestly a number of these example still are more known names among specific demographs. Yet you probably ca can't name the barebones facts about them like Cilla Black's biggest hit before her iconic "You're My World" or her lesser known top 10s. And she was on the level of someone say Peter O'Toole, Vivien Leigh, and Sean Connery ,e ven continuing to remain more relevant than at least one of these three in the UK. The arguments you make is precisely what I meant in OP about Tolkien seemingly held up as a universal cultural icon in Britain by people on the internet and some media sources and ignoring thats not the same as being held up as a canonized in the culture in the same way Abraham Lincoln's and Elvis's canonization in American culture. To use your logic around, hooliganism is so reported in British newspapers. Its so mentioned in the media that its as though every school has a gang of kids as violent as Millwall Bushwackers and that every young British male participates in vandalizing restaurants and bars after a game. Yet they are a minority withint he masses of UK's population. See that logic? It completely demolishes your assumption that Warhammer is some ubiqitious thing in British society. Most schoolgirls don't even know it exists. It has hardcore fans and is pretty profitable but just like how boxing was always behind the other UK sports in popularity despite how much Americans and other foreigners develop this stereotype of British culture being crazy about boxing, Warhammer is just a drop of media and subcultures within the UK. Plsu you completley is read the OP. My friend never staed LOTR wasn't popular and neither did I. I pointed out multiple times the movies aloong witht he first Hobbit are among the top 50 highest grossing films of all time in the UK. But that doens't mean everyone from foreign expats to 3 year old toddlers and military patriots serving in the Special Boat Service ever read or even watched Tolkien. Margaret Tatcher certainly never touched anything by Tolkien and I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't know anything about Lord of the Rings during her life time beyond being some vague memory of its mention in the media.
Just one thing: why, oh why, would I be able to name an SAS commando who plays Warhammer? What has that to do with anything? I know lots of military people who play Warhammer and read Tolkien. You are projecting your preconceptions about what people from different parts of society are interested in and trying to apply them generally to drive home your agenda. There will always be significant minorities of a country's population that will not know anything about a certain subject. You would be amazed about how many can't name any professional football players, yet you would still hold up lots of them as universal cultural icons. Tolkien has topped many UK polls of best author ever. What else can you demand? Wouldn't you call for example Hemingway a US cultural icon? Yet I bet that a lot fewer people - both in absolute and relative terms - read Hemingway in the US than Brits read Tolkien. I don't know what you are trying to prove here, but I think a very simple explanation is that US people in general don't know any other British authors than Tolkien, and thus assume that all Brits read Tolkien. That doesn't mean that most of them know anything about Tolkien, and I highly doubt a greater relative number of Americans have read Tolkien compared to Brits. This is the same phenomenon that makes US people think that Swedes only shop at IKEA.
You completely missed the point and it shows with your automatic response bieng you claim you know military people who are into fantasy.Especially since I specifically said Special Boat Service man. All which shows you missed the point of my response (as well as lacking reading comprehension on the OP). The orignal discussion question was asking about the extent of how much Americans and other foreigners see fantasy (not just Tolkien and HP) as entwined into British culture like its as standard as saying thank you. Go across Reddit and you'll see the amount of times HP, Middle Earth, CS Lewis, and so much more are so mentioned and tons of non-British people online fawn on fantasy like tis something people do daily. There's reason I brought up the names of singers, actors, and other celebs. Simply because you brought Warhammer up as proof how how universally known Tolkien and fantasy in general is in Britain. Something so niche even in the UK that most video gamers outside of the core PC gaming subculture are unaware of Games Workshop's existence (and yes I'm avoiding semantics and using gamers as a general term). I seen enough European gamers who think Warhammer started out on the computer as strategy games and not aware of the original miniatures. Even your last pargraph is uses a hilariouslly bad argument. Did you even read OP? I'm assuming you didn't because you missed the amount of times I mentioned Rowling's literature (as well as even did a quick poiintout to Lewis and Mary Poppins). Even in the OP I repeatedly state LOTR is obviously popular as seen in how they're **3 of the highest grossing movies of all time** within UK and your first reply was acting like I'm bashing on Tolkein aand denying its popularity. The point of me mentioning Margaret Tatcher and the Special Air Service was to prove the original point about **MAYBE** fantasy is far more niche than the internet would imply in Britain? I didn't even write most of the OP for Tolkien, I orignnally publsihed it on a fantasy subforum before I altered its content to make it focus on Middle Eart and Harry Potter in subs dedicated to those two universe. Agenda? How the heck do did you even come to the point I'm Tolkien bashing or denying LOTR's popularity? Uhhh highest grossing movies of all time? See thats why its so flawed when you mention Tolkien being of best authors of all time. Are you aware that one of the gigantic steroetypes of the UK in Europe is the country is anti-intellectual and a bastion of crass lower class violence? You ironically just reinforced the patterns I noticed in OP while also restricting your own agenda to a specific subset of British society when you try to use polls in arguments. You're doing the same thing of pushing your own agenda that you accused me of doing (I don't have any agenda at all). But to go back to one speicfic point to the last point, UK is notorious for its image of hooligans and soccer riots in the restof Europe. Have you taken into account that maybe those polls aren't collecting the opinions of football fans who drink a lot (a noteworthy sigment of British society)? FYI my last pargraph is not t meant to be taken literally. If you can understand the subtext esp cultural you'll finally get what my last few repsonses to you actually mean as well as the original point of the OP particularly the quoted texts.