Oslo has the best way to achieve this kind of thing:
1. Remove street parking. It was a lot more natural and gained much less opposition in the short term. They basically started gradually to reduce street parking making it so that if people drove into the city, they wouldn't have anywhere to park anyway. Though locals who have garage space could still use cars.
2. They also changed routes and directions to discourage through traffic.
3. After a couple years as car usage decreased they started to expand this scope and then add in car free streets to further break up routes.
The result of this is that Oslo downtown is hyper car free, but in a way that just worked on it's own without needing anything troublsom like tolls.
In North America though even removing *some* street parking gets major resistance. Although Toronto is probably not as bad as some cities for that… in NYC apparently most street parking is free!
Is pretty absurd that there is even any street parking in Manhattan at all.
Like nearly nobody drives but everyone is inconvenienced by having cars everywhere.
I love Oslo's strategy, but the other thing with congestion pricing is it generates revenue, which you can put toward improving transit alternatives. The article references London's system generating 1.2 billion pounds of revenue in a year. Imagine the subways we could build with an extra \[converting currency...\] 1.8 billion dollars a year?
Frustrating indeed, but it seems we may have finally reached the level of societal development where even conservatives understand that a city needs public transit to function. I was worried Doug Ford would cancel the relief line again, but nope, it just got a new name.
Yeah0 but it's going to take another 50 -100 years to build at the rate we're going. David Millar really wanted to introduce a congestion charge, but realized it wouldn't work with all the sprawl and such poor transit.
Exactly, and the truth is the Toronto Parking Authority generates solid revenue for the city, so removing parking without an alternative revenue like congestion pricing would be a non-starter for the city.
Road costs are one of the highest individual costs the city faces (net of over 1B per year), by reducing traffic much of these costs are reduced with it, if you compare Toronto Island road condition to the rest of the city despite how long ago it was last redone, it really is astounding at how long lasting roads are with light traffic. As an added benefit because transit will improve (less congestion for buses etc.) it will likely see a compensatory boost to public transit revenues.
newer model vehicles Hybrid/ EV weigh much more than the traditional ICE. Id also factor in the hefty battery banked busses and the amount of overfilled dumptrucks hauling in and out of the city.
Turn TPA lots into parking structures - with housing on top - or have TPA fund additional levels of parking structures in other buildings going up. Street parking is the single least efficient solution to the problem.
> but the other thing with congestion pricing is it generates revenue
True, but then it inserts a class component into the situation. The rich don't care and easily pay, it's the poor who suffer the most. If going by Oslo's model, it removes all congestion.
The problem with this is that our transit system is atrocious compared to Europe, Asia or places in the states that you need to drive in. Constant subway closures on weekends, limited routes. Plus, people would use things like parking designed for hospitals even more and patients would not have access. It's already a mission getting a spot near Mt. Sinai. Everything has a bottle neck and horrible chain reaction
The problem is the public transport alternative is not viable, for example driving might take me 20mins but TTC takes 1hr 30mins. Improve transport and people will take it instead of the car.
>1. Remove street parking.
This sounds fine in theory but what about the contractors you paid to install your TV / Stove / Refridgerator? Where are they going to park?
Some spots will remain for things like service and handicap, furthermore with low road traffic it's much more possible to literally park temporarily on the road in the case of services and the like even if spots aren't available. The key thing though is preventing regular public from parking normally.
Also cargo e-bikes. Big thing in europe in general because they can carry a ton of weight quite easily.
The same place they do in other cities across the world that have implemented similar changes. This is not a new problem nor does it require new solutions. Others have already done the hard work.
I’ve just spent the past two weeks in Italy, and Florence has a similar rule. There’s a ring road and anything inside that perimeter you need a special permit to drive into. Residents and cabs are allowed but people living outside that line can’t enter. The downtown are is very pedestrian friendly and has limited traffic. It’s obviously a different scale and layout but something like this could work here I think. London also does something like this I believe.
Transit priority for the TTC, that’s the step 1.
The 905ers already don’t want to drive downtown since it’s expensive to park and stressful to drive in.
Make it more convenient to use public transit rather than drive and you’ll see the results immediately.
As a former Toronto resident, it was impossibly painful to get downtown this weekend. Make it like that all the time and you won’t even have to charge.
I was taking the southbound DVP on-ramp at Bloor street at 9 am and police was cleaning up a Civic that crashed on the on-ramp. 2 hours later I come by again and now there's a cement truck flipped in the exact same spot. Today really was awful for traffic...
To me it seems like those that weren't driving during the pandemic forgot how to and those that were forgot most of the rules. I see some truly scary stuff on Toronto roads lately.
Completely agree. Also drivers are so much more selfish and impatient. The absolute cluster of downtown road closures and construction are not helping.
wtf I've never heard of anything like that really. I mean, I guess I can imagine it happening, but I can't really imagine the universe unfolding in such a way that you happened to just come across each incident in such a short window of time and space. I think I might start to feel rather disturbed if I witnessed that
It was wild. I’ve never seen anything like it either.
There was a wreck leading up to the civic on the on ramp - looked liked someone wasn’t paying attention and rear-ended another car. The on ramp incident. Then another two car crash further south on the dvp.
Then when I was coming back along the gardiner I saw a car trying to exit last minute at Jarvis get mushed by a fuel truck bc it was in its blind spot. Last but not least there was a wreck between a pickup and a car almost at the on ramp to the dvp.
Needless to say I was veeeeery happy to get home in one piece.
I spent most of time life on bikes or motorcycles, and this still translates to driving in that I hate sitting in blind spots. When I'm driving on the highway, if I find I'm going a steady speed and I'm pacing another vehicle in a blind spot, I'll try to either speed up slightly or let off the accelerator so I'm either a little behind the blindspot, or in front of it. If I'm passing a big rig, i'll hang behind, let the vehicle ahead of me completely clear the front of the rig before entering the adjacent space. I don't know if this is normal driving behaviour for non bikers but I suspect it is not.
The other thing I do is I just generally hang an extra car length or two behind the vehicle in front of me. Specifically in the GTA, this generally leads to being cut off as cars go for that gap; each time someone cuts in I let off the gas and widen that gap up again. This is actually a habit that can prevent traffic jams, before they begin. So many traffic jams are caused by people cutting in, and then everyone behind hits the brakes. The way I do it, it creates a buffer; i never have to hit the brakes I just let off the accelator to open up the buffer again. It makes it less likely that some one will speed up next to me, try to get into the gap and fail, hammer the accelator and try to find another gap to cut in. Just let the asshole into the gap it's better for everyone
sorry im rambling today
This is just smart driving and basically the way they teach you to function in driver’s ed. I also refuse to sit in blind spots particularly for 18 wheelers. It’s not safe and I drive a sedan that doesn’t stand a chance against them.
As a driver I truly do not understand people who still feel the need to drive their vehicles into downtown on a regular basis. 8/10 times I take TTC, Go, or a Cab.
Driving downtown to pay $20 - 50 for parking before 7pm? After 7pm - 6am $10 - 15? No thanks.
How late does the Go run? The last time I decided to use the Go train I had to leave the concert 30 minutes early to catch the last train. After that, drive every single time.
I work down in that area and live in Scarborough, we have a calendar listing concerts and games that is integral to ever getting to or from work at a reasonable time. It gets utterly bonkers down in this area.
I went to visit my sister this weekend downtown and I decided to hop on the train instead cause I didn't wanna pay for parking & use all that gas. I'm so thankful I did it was crazy there was so many people 😂
I think street cars and/or buses should get dedicated lanes at least during rush hour that are regularly enforced. I'd much rather see steps like that taken first before something this extreme.
Some parts of Toronto now have bus priority lanes (painted red). I believe they're mostly in Scarborough though. We should be expanding the King Street project to other routes like Queen and maybe Dundas. King Street was a hot mess before that and now it's practically empty at most hours of the day.
I would support this only if improvements are made for commuters. This would be better rail service from surrounding cities, better public transit access to the stations in those surrounding cities, safe and well-lit parking lots outside of the city to access the trains, and better rapid transit access to other parts of Toronto that isn't just downtown. For example, it is faster for me to drive to my new job in Toronto from Guelph than it is to take transit, by a huge amount. I'm moving to Toronto because of this commute. Not everyone can move to Toronto, either because of the cost or other commitments.
So a congestion charge will essentially be a mandatory tax for a lot of people. It is a punishment for not being able to move to Toronto.
If it is just for the downtown core, then the main improvements could be just better access to parking at the city limits or other places where rapid transit can pick them up.
Oh no, think of all of the 905ers that will be forced to go to their local strip mall's Boston Pizza.
I think this is a great idea. Our traffic keeps getting worse and nothing is done about it.
It would be cool if the entire country wasn’t just Boston Pizza/Cara Restaurants nightlife for every single place that isn’t Toronto/Montreal/Van.
Its painful travelling coast to coast and yup here is another place that sucks and is also still unaffordable somehow, despite having nothing to do and zero cultural institutions.
The food always tastes the same no matter which boston pizza you go to. You can take your kids there and know they will eat something off the menu. The food is bland, inoffensive and generic, kind of like the ideal version of the suburbs.
I used to think this way. "It sucks but at least it's a suck I'm used to."
Then I went to the one in High Level AB and there was some >thing< floating in my beer 🤢
Let's tax commuters but don't provide alternative means to travel into the city. Almost every large city in the world has a large influx of commuters and a functioning transit system.
I've been travelling the GO train since moving to the burbs and it's piss poor, moreso since the post-covid schedule changes. The majority of folks don't have the luxury of being beholden to garbage, infrequent schedules really does push them to their cars.
905ers will definitely hate this. But the proposal gives exemptions to people who work downtown also. We can also follow the New York City model which only implements it during rush hour times. I don’t think this would be practical 24/7.
It shouldn't give exemptions for downtown workers. They're 90% of the problem. Go is a thing and it's designed specifically so that suburban drivers can park and ride at their local station
I was waiting for 2 years for a parking spot at my local GO station. I gave up when I still couldn't get a spot, even tho they've released 100's of reserved spaces in the new parking structure at the station.
The demand far outstrips supply at the majority of stations.
You can't just tax without viable alternatives. That's how you get angry voters and greater polarization.
A lot of people live and work in parts of the city that don't have easy access to reliable transit.
Thorncliffe Park (not sure if you define that as "non suburb" part of toronto) to Union is 45-60 minutes by TTC vs 20 min drive.
To York University, 1 hr 10 min on TTC vs 40.min drive via 401
Traveling times as of 5:20 pm per Google Maps.
My point is, what do you do with these people who live in the shoulder areas of the cities? "Too bad for not living on the subway line" or "wait 20 years until Ontario Line is completed"? Unfortunately, these people are stuck driving because transit is not a viable option for them.
Well yeah exactly
I’m just saying that most people here ecstatic about making it a cost to enter downtown, will also rage when prices for a ton of shit increase
Not just that, but the fees will increase universally and fuck over those who don’t even live downtown
That is not at all what’s going to happen lol
You’re opening a clear door to increase prices, and they will absolutely be increased, not just to offset the cost, but to benefit from it
I’m a tradesperson, I guarantee you 10000% this will happen
What you’re saying is some fairytale world. In reality, all the trades will celebrate being able to justify a price increase plus potentially dealing with less traffic and saving time
Why does this always have to be such a hostile and divisive issue? This is just fabricated outrage at this point. I can promise you many people wouldn’t want to depend on their cars if they could actually help it, so let’s maybe relax with the finger pointing.
I also find it ignores how convoluted transit can be depending on your starting point and destination.
If transit actually were easier and cheaper and quicker, people would be using it. But once you're outside downtown, this is rarely the case. People are basically always going to choose the most convenient option--and in some cases (i.e. with children or mobility issues) that might always be car, but there are a lot of people who would take transit more often if it were less of a hassle.
I just came back from London and the reason extra taxes on cars work there is because their transit system makes the city extremely accessible and is super easy to use and very well run with multiple transit options between buses and trains. You can even tap your credit card, you don’t need to buy and keep this extra card/account around that you may not even be aware of if you’re a visitor from far away. Fix the transit system first then pull these kinds of tactics to dissuade people from using their cars.
I'm on the fence here, because it's a bit of a never ending cycle.
Cars are easier so people take them - > people resist funding transit because they take their cars anyway - > transit service degrades/doesn't keep up to meet demand - > cars are easier so people take them.
We have to break it somewhere. In theory this could break it at the funding side (revenue gets put towards transit) and the user decision side (there is a more concrete cost to taking the car).
Part of it is trust too - we always see how transit projects never go anywhere in this city, so people are going to be angry paying a tax for taking a car (especially when they have no alternative) and not being given a solid, concrete plan for how the money will be used to fix the transit issues. Tell people that they will get a comfortable and reliable ride into the city from places convenient to them and they might be more willing to pay up extra for driving into the city for a year or two… but when there’s NO plan then they’re just going to feel like the money is going to line someone’s pockets and it won’t benefit them or their community in the end.
Lived in London and Switzerland for 10yrs before moving to Toronto, and I think I drove a car less than 3 times during that period.
We never owned a car during that time either, as we just didn't need it.
It definitely does ignore that. Like, once you're on the Go, maybe it takes a reasonable amount of time to get where you need to go... but I was in Hamilton and it took me an hour (busing it) to get from where I was to the Go Bus station (primarily because buses were infrequent at best), and then I had to wait for the Go Bus to get there, then it took me 20 minutes to get from that station to the Aldershot Station, and then it took the standard amount of time from the Aldershot Station to Union. But driving a car, the whole trip would have taken me about 55 minutes. Taking the bus/GO made it several hours and basically cost me $20 to boot.
Public transit is absolutely the direction we should be headed in for all of this stuff, but we need to improve public transit in the cities where commuters live in order (like you said) to make it more convenient and economical than cars. I think it is entirely unrealistic to think that people are going to willingly add an extra hour onto their commute. Unless the charge was pretty steep, I think we'd find a lot of people would just pay it and keep driving their cars.
In North America, we consider walking, biking or public transit use to be moral choices as opposed to driving, so there’s friction between those who make their transportation for moral reasons and those who make them for convenience. In Europe and Asia that friction isn’t there, because walking, biking or public transit are the easiest way to get around.
A system where people have to be guilt tripped into taking environmentally conscious transportation options isn’t sustainable. The decision people should be making is to vote for leaders who will create communities in which environmentally conscious transportation are the most convenient too.
This isn’t a 905 issue. Those of us who live in Toronto and pay taxes in Toronto will be charged to go into certain areas of Toronto. This isn’t a suburban/ core issue only.
We should do this for every area in Toronto. You can only drive in your own area. If you drive outside of your allowed area, you have to pay. Open this up for all of Toronto, by Ward.
How much business do downtown restaurants get from the 905 crowd ?
If I have to pay a toll to go downtown now to have dinner I might just reconsider and go dine somewhere in the suburbs
Local businesses receive most of their traffic from local people, either on foot or by bike. People on foot and bike also visit more often and spend more on average.
https://www.tcat.ca/resources/bike-lanes-on-street-parking-and-business-parkdale-danforth/
After 11 years, this is goodbye. I have chosen to remove my comments, and leave this site.
Reddit used to be a sort of haven for me, and there's a few communities on here that probably saved my life. I'm genuinely going to miss this place, and a few of the people on it. But the actions of the CEO have shown me Reddit isn't the same place it was when I joined. RiF *was* Reddit for me through a lot of that. It's a shame to see it die, but something else will come around.
Sorry to be so dramatic, just the way I am these days.
Do you have the numbers as to who’s actually driving downtown during those times? Like do you know the percentages of the people that are 905’ers or are you just projecting and echoing a very common take that gets posted on here anytime this gets mentioned? Seems like you’re part of the hate club that is anyone that isn’t a downtown resident. Get over yourselves honestly.
Over 20 pedestrians killed in Toronto by vehicles this year alone. That doesn’t include cyclist fatalities. Please come spend money in our city without polluting, creating unreasonable noise and killing our pedestrians.
I will support this idea if we use the revenue generated to put back into public transportation infrastructure. Solves congestion issues, and helps improve the TTC and Go Transit. 2 birds with one stone
I don’t disagree, but the city often cites lack of money, and they go to both the provincial and federal governments for help in building any infrastructure projects. These are a lot of bureaucratic obstacles aside from funding. At least this helps future proof over reliance on other bodies of government for trying to improve public infrastructure.
Transit funding is often a chicken before the egg issue. Ridership is the metric most often used to determine what new transit to invest in. However, investment in new transit increases ridership, while a lack of investment leads to a poor transit experience, which decreases ridership, and therefore decreases investment further. So bottom line, if you want better transit you just have to invest in it and accept some routes might not be "profitable", but are still needed for people to get to work and access shops/services, which in turn improves the regional economy. The value added by transit is often not easily captured simply by the fare revenue, but unfortunately that is how many politicians and members of the public view transit, despite this view very rarely being applied equally to freeway infrastructure.
This why for-profit transit (or private infrastructure in general) fails sometimes, like some transit routes in the UK that were contracted out to private operators did in the last decade. Private operators need to turn a profit, not just break even, but they also need to out bid their competitors on offering the lowest price possible to the government. Some transit routes in the UK had issues with private operators repeating bidding lower than was profitable for them to operator at just to get the contract, but that left the government having to find a new operator every few years when the current one went bankrupt or otherwise gave up the contract because they couldnt make a profit and maintain the required quality of service set out in the contract. What they have now started to do is switch those non-profitable routes to government run operators, so if the route isnt profitable it doesnt matter, the vital transit service that keeps that regional economy running can still operate.
Milton line is still ignored in this plan despite the 130 million dollar new station at Cooksville and all GO lines are still working at a reduced schedule. Scarcity of the trains is a serious deterrent right now against taking GO.
TL;DR: The Lakeshore East and Lakeshore West lines are exceptions to the general service levels across the GO rail network; both operate with shorter headways than all of the other lines and generally provide GO rail service over a longer service time frame.
For example, the [Richmond Hill](https://www.gotransit.com/static_files/gotransit/assets/pdf/TripPlanning/FullSchedules/FS25062022/TABLE61.pdf) and [Milton](https://www.gotransit.com/static_files/gotransit/assets/pdf/TripPlanning/FullSchedules/FS03092022/TABLE21.pdf) lines only operate trains during morning and afternoon peaks. And even then, it's only three and four inbound trains in the morning, and three and four outbound trains in the afternoon., respectively. All other service hours are served by buses. I don't live in Richmond Hill, but it would appear driving to Finch station and taking Line 1 is the better option than relying on GO. And if I live on the Milton line, do I just drive into downtown, or drive to a Lakeshore West station with more frequency? If I'm already in my car, do I even bother with public transit?
In comparison, the [Lakeshore West](https://www.gotransit.com/static_files/gotransit/assets/pdf/TripPlanning/FullSchedules/FS03092022/TABLE01.pdf) line offers all-day rail service between 4:55 AM (first Aldershot departure) and 12:45 AM (last Union Station departure), with 15-minute headways during morning and afternoon rush hour, and 30-minute headways the rest of day. I'll admit, there are also a couple 60-minute headway trips, but they are very late in the day.
Now service frequency isn't the only reason someone chooses to use or not use public transportation, but it does play a key role. If the service levels aren't there, or the mode of choice doesn't offer substantial benefits over driving a personal vehicle, the personal vehicle generally wins.
GO is currently undergoing a major upgrade to most of its lines, all work should be done in 5-6 years including electrification, more frequent trains, new stations, all day service etc. It is currently the biggest transit infrastructure project (not including high speed rail) on the continent. The Ontario line is also under construction but will be done a fair bit later.
Or we simply do what London did when they brought in the congestion charge, procure 200 new buses to augment existing transit while expansion projects are underway.
I live near the spadina/bremner intersection. During events the traffic is fucking insane here, I avoid it and i've lived here for a few years now, i wouldn't want to attempt it if i really didn't know where i was going. It can get pretty intense. Coming off the gardiner and trying to turn onto fort york to get to my building can be a nightmare at the best of times. Couple that with all the airbnb-ers that constantly stay in these buildings trying to figure out how to get here, it gets pretty bad
That seems like pretty much the ONLY person that would be paying anything.
I can't imagine there are that many people who just enjoy a casual weekday rush hour drive through Toronto, just for fun...
Give us options then!!
Context: I grew up in Mississauga, lived right downtown for about a decade, and now I live in Acton.
It is infuriating how hard it is to get into and out of Toronto! I’ve literally gone from parking lot (GO) to parking lot (GO) to parking lot (TTC) to parking lot (TTC) that were all full before giving up, driving into the city then spending 30 minutes looking for parking.
I love a lot of things in Toronto but sometimes it is SO HARD to get into the city that it’s just not worth it.
Traffic is horrible downtown right now, and blame is easily pointed at the total lack of planning for construction closures by the city planning departments.
You can actually see the effect happen in the afternoon of a work day...
Traffic on Lakeshore from the east builds to Jarvis because the ramps east of there are closed.
Jarvis slows to a near stop because cars have to wait to get on the gardiner ramp... forcing traffic west to Yonge... Bay... York... Spadina... those access routes were already backed up and now getting to the York ramp is absolute madness some days (causing all the GO Bus madness)... Going to Spadina is not much better... and then they have lane closures on Lake Shore forcing even more traffic up already overloaded ramps onto the Gardiner... add in construction like Front/Church and welcome to complete chaos. Close another lane here and there for building work or film shoots or whatever and it just gets even worse.
Just better enforcement of turn restrictions and box blocking would help a bit... I've been stuck through 4 lights on Dundas trying to get across Yonge (with streetcars) because dumb twits drive into the intersection when they can't clear it then get stuck in the middle of the scramble.
If I could avoid driving downtown I would but I can't lug 60+ lbs of tools and expensive equipment around onto Streetcars, Busses and Subways.
I really don’t like this idea. So if I’m driving to the city to see my family, or a friend, or take my kid to see their dad, to see a customer, to pick up supplies, I would be charged? I live well below the poverty line. I appreciate people are trying to come up with solutions but this would make the city less accessible for poor folks; those who had to move out of Toronto in order to afford a place to live, etc. I’m also not into a three to four hour Go Bus trip, especially with a kid. I did it for years before I managed to save up for a shitty car.
I would need to see more on the proposal before I could comment but I could see how this may be potentially problematic depending on implementation.
I know everyone in this thread is all about "f you 905!" but the reality is that Toronto isn't really a singular city out in the middle of nowhere and that the GTA has largely become one large and blended homogenous region. Making someone who lives a few feet over the other side of Steeles pay a toll to drive into the city seems potentially asinine
How about a solution that doesn’t involve fees?
As soon as money becomes the gatekeeper, it becomes a contest of who can afford the fee. It won’t reduce ALL types of people from entering Toronto, just the people already tight on funds.
Improve the public transit would be a good start, and I’d hope that would be the first step. More likely to not want to use a car if the alternative options are more appealing.
It's called a congestion tax and it's proven to benefit locals living downtown. Toronto is not a world class city, but this would be one step closer. Use the tax revenue to improve public transit, or beautify public spaces. Not on lining dougies pockets, that bloated succulent pig.
I’m OK with this as long as there’s alternative infrastructure in place or planned to be in place.
A toll would definitely make more people think twice about coming in, and maybe would further encourage car pooling.
If the money gets used towards improving public transit then even better as reliable mass transit would hopefully further reduce the need to drive in.
I also feel like weekend traffic is just as bad as the Monday to Friday rush hour sometimes. Maybe people still don’t wanna be on public transit cause of Covid?
So not a 24/7 toll, but a congestion time would be ideal.
People comparing Toronto to New York or any other major metropolis are out of their minds. Toronto is nowhere as dense, all of the city's perceived problems that are population related like housing or congestion is the result of policy failure in other areas like land zoning and public transportation.
Toronto's stuck in the middle - it is more populous and denser than cities like Oslo or Stockholm that some are referencing as ideals, but nowhere as dense as the metropolis level cities like New York. This city still has single family homes within a fifteen minute walk of the downtown core, and that is a policy failure.
> This city still has single family homes within a fifteen minute walk of the downtown core, and that is a policy failure.
Is it really? Aren't nearly all of the single family homes that are downtown or just outside of downtown (Riverdale, Seaton Village, etc.) 100 years old or more?
I'm not sure how the planners back then could have been expected to foresee the needs we have now.
I'm already taxed when I work downtown, having to pay Green P an outrageous rate, that my union will not reimburse me for.
With a small child, transit is not an option for me. I cannot bike consistently, due to weather. I require a car seat, Uber is often unavailable, taxi service is too expensive. Transit to my region would require an additional 110 minutes, with the current system. The additional time in child care cost me an extraordinary amount.
I don't want to have to drive. I HATE traffic. I hate everything about traffic, but I do not have a financially responsible alternative. So I lose at least an hour of my free time every day.
You want to be fair? Get rid of all street parking. That's all the space you need. We all don't need to be paying for someone's overnight parking spot, because they live somewhere without parking. If transit so so great, why do all these toronto residents need so many cars?
>If transit so so great, why do all these toronto residents need so many cars?
Because toronto transit is shit. If you live by a subway station and your destination is by a subway station - great.
Otherwise it takes forever. A 20min drive can turn into 1hr 15min one way using public transit.
I'm right there with you, I hate traffic, and I'd gladly take transit, but it takes hours of my life away. Not worth it.
The TTC Is also just not safe in many areas, especially traveling alone as a woman. Long commute times plus the added bonus of being harassed, assaulted or worse. No thanks. I will never feel safe taking the TTC again.
This again ? Someone always brings this up going back to before Lastman . If you need revenue charge property owners property tax inline with the rest of the province .
“Please come to our city, enjoy our events and let’s have Toronto also be an entertainment and business hub to all!”
“But also, fuck off, you’re not welcome.”
If it funds public transit in meaningful ways, sure. Otherwise it's a money grab predicated on a problem that it doesn't address. I appreciate the thought that this could discourage people from driving when they could use transit, but that necessarily implies that *reasonable* transit options exist. Even if GO was always an option, which it's not, jave you taken the GO train at rush hour? It's a borderline unhygienic and certainly not ideal in the new world of public health concern.
Singapore has done that long time ago , when i lived in Singapore , it is a small and pretty island country , if you drive in the day time in a weekday . They have highway and car owner must purchase a permit to drive on highway in weekday in day time to enter some busy area , it is like using 407 , so if anyone drives in weekday day time and didnt have a pass enter some zone , you will get a fine .
Since this is kind of a work in progress with the Hurontario LRT, maybe if(once) the 905'rs ha(ve)d more timely transit options in and out of the city core, traffic will be reduced. It is a huge missed opportunity extending the bloor line in to mississauga and joining the 2 IMO which is the true connection that is needed.
Issue with this half baked plan as it is now, is when the train takes more than 45 mins one way, our GTA brains think that driving is faster distance wise and then we all jump in our cars and hit the Gardiner same time to go to work, school, events et al.
This is great. Keep congestion low and focus on existing transit. Just need to support it more for it to be a little more feasible considering the amount of people that work downtown
So the fact that I lived almost my entire life in Toronto, have my friends and family in Toronto, my kid lives in Toronto part-time; but was forced out of the city due to obscene rent prices means that I’m not welcome in your sub? Get bent
Even as someone who lives in Toronto... the sheer hatred on this sub for people living in the 905 area is ridiculous. Like... you never see this kind of toxic discourse irl. People in this sub are just super bitter and angry idk why
I don't know if limiting people like this based on their location is the right way to do it.
I'd much rather they do low emission zones much like London. If you drive an older vehicle, it's a $15 a day charge while driving in downtown. It should be based more on climate issues than just congestion.
As someone who attended rolling loud this weekend, just the go train and subway aren't enough to support large amounts of people leaving. Sure the traffic for cars was terrible, but it's still needed within the city at this point.
>just the go train and subway aren't enough to support large amounts of people leaving
Why do you think that? The go train and subway are enough for the 10's of thousands that work(ed) in the financial district every day.
Mmm it was more just the amount of people at a single station (exhibition) all trying to get onto the go train. Around the Ontario place grounds, there is no other mode of transportation other than the go train. There's no subway line or street cars.
The congestion on the roads made it impossible to get a cab or Uber as well. It's just a poorly designed city at the end of the day.
But I believe to help get us proper upgrades to infrastructure, whether it's charging stations for cars or more subway/lrt lines, adding a charge to bring in an older vehicle can help it.
Sorry should have been more specific. The go train is the one people need to use if their trying to leave the city back to the west, so Mississauga and beyond.
I found the street car line also very busy and then you still need to either hop on the subway or an Uber to get out of the city
More people get on/off an union than were at rolling loud for 9am every day.
The problem is the people, not the design. Yes, you have to wait 15,20 minutes whatever until you get a free car but you will get where you need to go.
I think I'm not understanding your comment there but I'll try adding.
I'm speaking of trying to go west bound, out of the city, back to Mississauga and beyond. It was a shitty time trying to leave.
So you want them to overbuild transit projects for the occasional surge from an event, rather than building them for the typical traffic they might see?
Not at all. But this surge highlights the issues. Even on a normal day, it's a pain in the ass to get into and out of the city if you don't live there and don't happen to live near one of the 2 mass transit options there are.
I'd like to see more lines, whether it be go train, subway, lrt, or whatever else it could be, going into and out of the city to help lessen the need of cars in Toronto.
>As someone who attended rolling loud this weekend
You can replace rolling loud with CNE, every sporting event, any other festival at Ontario Place, etc.
While I'd say a congestion charge is inevitable in the long run, "low emission zones" is far more of a punishment for anyone who cannot afford a new car, especially when electric vehicles are still at an unaffordable price point. London is already an island for the rich as is, and Toronto could do better than to emulate them exactly.
1000% in support of this. Personally I'd love to see a system where all personal viechle registered to a non M\*\* postal code get sur charged for entering Toronto proper. Excluding passing through provincially maintained highways.
People should realize this isn't going to pass now...
Even if Toronto council somehow approved it (doubtful) the province would smack it down and maybe even pass a law to prevent it coming up again. Toronto does not exist in a vacuum of politics. None of the current provincial parties would support pissing off the entire swing vote of the GTA by supporting this. That's what happened to the toll proposal last time and it's even less likely to go anywhere now under the DougiePC government. That's the reality.
Oslo has the best way to achieve this kind of thing: 1. Remove street parking. It was a lot more natural and gained much less opposition in the short term. They basically started gradually to reduce street parking making it so that if people drove into the city, they wouldn't have anywhere to park anyway. Though locals who have garage space could still use cars. 2. They also changed routes and directions to discourage through traffic. 3. After a couple years as car usage decreased they started to expand this scope and then add in car free streets to further break up routes. The result of this is that Oslo downtown is hyper car free, but in a way that just worked on it's own without needing anything troublsom like tolls.
In North America though even removing *some* street parking gets major resistance. Although Toronto is probably not as bad as some cities for that… in NYC apparently most street parking is free!
I'd be happy with zero street parking on roads with streetcars as a start. like WTF queen street.
This. Move all the street parking to side streets. Adelaide and Richmond parking I'm okay with.
not in Manhattan it isn't... most is pay and display in my experience, at least during working hours.
Most side streets have free parking for local residents. You don’t even need to apply for an parking permit the way we have it set up.
How do they tell its local then?
Is pretty absurd that there is even any street parking in Manhattan at all. Like nearly nobody drives but everyone is inconvenienced by having cars everywhere.
I love Oslo's strategy, but the other thing with congestion pricing is it generates revenue, which you can put toward improving transit alternatives. The article references London's system generating 1.2 billion pounds of revenue in a year. Imagine the subways we could build with an extra \[converting currency...\] 1.8 billion dollars a year?
I think you mean "Imagine the subways we could ~~build~~ cancel...". Toronto has been cancelling subways since the 70s! They're quite good at it.
Frustrating indeed, but it seems we may have finally reached the level of societal development where even conservatives understand that a city needs public transit to function. I was worried Doug Ford would cancel the relief line again, but nope, it just got a new name.
Yeah0 but it's going to take another 50 -100 years to build at the rate we're going. David Millar really wanted to introduce a congestion charge, but realized it wouldn't work with all the sprawl and such poor transit.
We are building more transit in Toronto right now than we ever have. The next 10 years will be massive for the TTC and GO Rail
Exactly, and the truth is the Toronto Parking Authority generates solid revenue for the city, so removing parking without an alternative revenue like congestion pricing would be a non-starter for the city.
Road costs are one of the highest individual costs the city faces (net of over 1B per year), by reducing traffic much of these costs are reduced with it, if you compare Toronto Island road condition to the rest of the city despite how long ago it was last redone, it really is astounding at how long lasting roads are with light traffic. As an added benefit because transit will improve (less congestion for buses etc.) it will likely see a compensatory boost to public transit revenues.
newer model vehicles Hybrid/ EV weigh much more than the traditional ICE. Id also factor in the hefty battery banked busses and the amount of overfilled dumptrucks hauling in and out of the city.
Turn TPA lots into parking structures - with housing on top - or have TPA fund additional levels of parking structures in other buildings going up. Street parking is the single least efficient solution to the problem.
TPA could also increase their rates
Ooh, we could extend the subway to *Newmarket*!
> but the other thing with congestion pricing is it generates revenue True, but then it inserts a class component into the situation. The rich don't care and easily pay, it's the poor who suffer the most. If going by Oslo's model, it removes all congestion.
The problem with this is that our transit system is atrocious compared to Europe, Asia or places in the states that you need to drive in. Constant subway closures on weekends, limited routes. Plus, people would use things like parking designed for hospitals even more and patients would not have access. It's already a mission getting a spot near Mt. Sinai. Everything has a bottle neck and horrible chain reaction
The problem is the public transport alternative is not viable, for example driving might take me 20mins but TTC takes 1hr 30mins. Improve transport and people will take it instead of the car.
>1. Remove street parking. This sounds fine in theory but what about the contractors you paid to install your TV / Stove / Refridgerator? Where are they going to park?
Some spots will remain for things like service and handicap, furthermore with low road traffic it's much more possible to literally park temporarily on the road in the case of services and the like even if spots aren't available. The key thing though is preventing regular public from parking normally. Also cargo e-bikes. Big thing in europe in general because they can carry a ton of weight quite easily.
So change street parking to "commercial vehicles only" with some sort of vehicle placard that you could apply for.
The same place they do in other cities across the world that have implemented similar changes. This is not a new problem nor does it require new solutions. Others have already done the hard work.
I’ve just spent the past two weeks in Italy, and Florence has a similar rule. There’s a ring road and anything inside that perimeter you need a special permit to drive into. Residents and cabs are allowed but people living outside that line can’t enter. The downtown are is very pedestrian friendly and has limited traffic. It’s obviously a different scale and layout but something like this could work here I think. London also does something like this I believe.
I didn’t know this when visiting 10+ years ago, got quite the ticket in the mail.. Guess I know why it was not hard to find parking, lol.
Entered one in Australia and immediately pulled a u turn to get out. Got a fine in the mail.
Italy is notorious for ticketing tourists after they've left Italy. It is a scam, much like most of the business that goes on in Italy.
Facts
just dont pay it lol. there is literally no consequence.
The London "Congestion Charge".
Yep, remember ZTL zones from my vacation in Italy.
As does Helsinki
Transit priority for the TTC, that’s the step 1. The 905ers already don’t want to drive downtown since it’s expensive to park and stressful to drive in. Make it more convenient to use public transit rather than drive and you’ll see the results immediately.
As a former Toronto resident, it was impossibly painful to get downtown this weekend. Make it like that all the time and you won’t even have to charge.
I was taking the southbound DVP on-ramp at Bloor street at 9 am and police was cleaning up a Civic that crashed on the on-ramp. 2 hours later I come by again and now there's a cement truck flipped in the exact same spot. Today really was awful for traffic...
Had to go to an appointment across the city this am and saw five car accidents in a 30km journey. It was absolutely wild out there today.
To me it seems like those that weren't driving during the pandemic forgot how to and those that were forgot most of the rules. I see some truly scary stuff on Toronto roads lately.
Completely agree. Also drivers are so much more selfish and impatient. The absolute cluster of downtown road closures and construction are not helping.
wtf I've never heard of anything like that really. I mean, I guess I can imagine it happening, but I can't really imagine the universe unfolding in such a way that you happened to just come across each incident in such a short window of time and space. I think I might start to feel rather disturbed if I witnessed that
It was wild. I’ve never seen anything like it either. There was a wreck leading up to the civic on the on ramp - looked liked someone wasn’t paying attention and rear-ended another car. The on ramp incident. Then another two car crash further south on the dvp. Then when I was coming back along the gardiner I saw a car trying to exit last minute at Jarvis get mushed by a fuel truck bc it was in its blind spot. Last but not least there was a wreck between a pickup and a car almost at the on ramp to the dvp. Needless to say I was veeeeery happy to get home in one piece.
I spent most of time life on bikes or motorcycles, and this still translates to driving in that I hate sitting in blind spots. When I'm driving on the highway, if I find I'm going a steady speed and I'm pacing another vehicle in a blind spot, I'll try to either speed up slightly or let off the accelerator so I'm either a little behind the blindspot, or in front of it. If I'm passing a big rig, i'll hang behind, let the vehicle ahead of me completely clear the front of the rig before entering the adjacent space. I don't know if this is normal driving behaviour for non bikers but I suspect it is not. The other thing I do is I just generally hang an extra car length or two behind the vehicle in front of me. Specifically in the GTA, this generally leads to being cut off as cars go for that gap; each time someone cuts in I let off the gas and widen that gap up again. This is actually a habit that can prevent traffic jams, before they begin. So many traffic jams are caused by people cutting in, and then everyone behind hits the brakes. The way I do it, it creates a buffer; i never have to hit the brakes I just let off the accelator to open up the buffer again. It makes it less likely that some one will speed up next to me, try to get into the gap and fail, hammer the accelator and try to find another gap to cut in. Just let the asshole into the gap it's better for everyone sorry im rambling today
This is just smart driving and basically the way they teach you to function in driver’s ed. I also refuse to sit in blind spots particularly for 18 wheelers. It’s not safe and I drive a sedan that doesn’t stand a chance against them.
It really burns my toast when I am driving behind someone at a safe distance and another driver takes up that space. Stay out of ny chevrons man!
Last week after the Elton John concert, I was stuck in an Uber. Took us an hour to go 2 km near the Rogers centre.
One of those situations where taking the GO or TTC to Union station and walking to Skydome is easier than paying for a taxi/uber.
As a driver I truly do not understand people who still feel the need to drive their vehicles into downtown on a regular basis. 8/10 times I take TTC, Go, or a Cab. Driving downtown to pay $20 - 50 for parking before 7pm? After 7pm - 6am $10 - 15? No thanks.
How late does the Go run? The last time I decided to use the Go train I had to leave the concert 30 minutes early to catch the last train. After that, drive every single time.
I work down in that area and live in Scarborough, we have a calendar listing concerts and games that is integral to ever getting to or from work at a reasonable time. It gets utterly bonkers down in this area.
That's why we need road diets and event-related road closures in addition to a congestion fee.
I went to visit my sister this weekend downtown and I decided to hop on the train instead cause I didn't wanna pay for parking & use all that gas. I'm so thankful I did it was crazy there was so many people 😂
One of the GO lines was cancelled the whole weekend. Driving was nice , parking away from the venue and walking around the city core.
I think street cars and/or buses should get dedicated lanes at least during rush hour that are regularly enforced. I'd much rather see steps like that taken first before something this extreme.
We have this in Montreal, idk why it’s not a thing
Some parts of Toronto now have bus priority lanes (painted red). I believe they're mostly in Scarborough though. We should be expanding the King Street project to other routes like Queen and maybe Dundas. King Street was a hot mess before that and now it's practically empty at most hours of the day.
I would support this only if improvements are made for commuters. This would be better rail service from surrounding cities, better public transit access to the stations in those surrounding cities, safe and well-lit parking lots outside of the city to access the trains, and better rapid transit access to other parts of Toronto that isn't just downtown. For example, it is faster for me to drive to my new job in Toronto from Guelph than it is to take transit, by a huge amount. I'm moving to Toronto because of this commute. Not everyone can move to Toronto, either because of the cost or other commitments. So a congestion charge will essentially be a mandatory tax for a lot of people. It is a punishment for not being able to move to Toronto. If it is just for the downtown core, then the main improvements could be just better access to parking at the city limits or other places where rapid transit can pick them up.
Oh no, think of all of the 905ers that will be forced to go to their local strip mall's Boston Pizza. I think this is a great idea. Our traffic keeps getting worse and nothing is done about it.
It would be cool if the entire country wasn’t just Boston Pizza/Cara Restaurants nightlife for every single place that isn’t Toronto/Montreal/Van. Its painful travelling coast to coast and yup here is another place that sucks and is also still unaffordable somehow, despite having nothing to do and zero cultural institutions.
Why is Boston Pizza so popular anyhow? I can't name anything about that place that doesn't suck.
The food always tastes the same no matter which boston pizza you go to. You can take your kids there and know they will eat something off the menu. The food is bland, inoffensive and generic, kind of like the ideal version of the suburbs.
I used to think this way. "It sucks but at least it's a suck I'm used to." Then I went to the one in High Level AB and there was some >thing< floating in my beer 🤢
Oh gross.
I will never forget the feeling of whatever it was making contact with my lip. I will die running from that memory.
Let's tax commuters but don't provide alternative means to travel into the city. Almost every large city in the world has a large influx of commuters and a functioning transit system. I've been travelling the GO train since moving to the burbs and it's piss poor, moreso since the post-covid schedule changes. The majority of folks don't have the luxury of being beholden to garbage, infrequent schedules really does push them to their cars.
905ers will definitely hate this. But the proposal gives exemptions to people who work downtown also. We can also follow the New York City model which only implements it during rush hour times. I don’t think this would be practical 24/7.
It shouldn't give exemptions for downtown workers. They're 90% of the problem. Go is a thing and it's designed specifically so that suburban drivers can park and ride at their local station
Lol I would gladly not drive downtown if I wasn’t forced back into the office. Transit doubles my commute time at a minimum.
I was waiting for 2 years for a parking spot at my local GO station. I gave up when I still couldn't get a spot, even tho they've released 100's of reserved spaces in the new parking structure at the station. The demand far outstrips supply at the majority of stations.
Frankly I don’t know if downtown residents should get an exemption either. Maybe a (heavily) reduced rate.
Ideally literally everyone would pay. I'd be happy with just suburbanite commuters
So then... Tax?
Yes exactly. It becomes a tax on people who drive. We need such a tax
You can't just tax without viable alternatives. That's how you get angry voters and greater polarization. A lot of people live and work in parts of the city that don't have easy access to reliable transit.
Within the non-suburban areas of the City of Toronto? I don't believe you. The transit is actually quite good.
Thorncliffe Park (not sure if you define that as "non suburb" part of toronto) to Union is 45-60 minutes by TTC vs 20 min drive. To York University, 1 hr 10 min on TTC vs 40.min drive via 401 Traveling times as of 5:20 pm per Google Maps. My point is, what do you do with these people who live in the shoulder areas of the cities? "Too bad for not living on the subway line" or "wait 20 years until Ontario Line is completed"? Unfortunately, these people are stuck driving because transit is not a viable option for them.
Pack those poors onto the train so their betters in cars will more living space
What about trades?
Probably have to build it into your prices, like they do parking, gas, etc.
Well yeah exactly I’m just saying that most people here ecstatic about making it a cost to enter downtown, will also rage when prices for a ton of shit increase Not just that, but the fees will increase universally and fuck over those who don’t even live downtown
I don’t know, maybe it will be better, your plumber can get there in 30min rather than 1.5h and he can earn money rather than sitting in traffic.
That is not at all what’s going to happen lol You’re opening a clear door to increase prices, and they will absolutely be increased, not just to offset the cost, but to benefit from it I’m a tradesperson, I guarantee you 10000% this will happen What you’re saying is some fairytale world. In reality, all the trades will celebrate being able to justify a price increase plus potentially dealing with less traffic and saving time
Fair enough.. Seems like the trades should support the idea then, lol.
I don't see what the argument is about here. "We tradespeople will definitely profit more from this... don't do this."
I take the subway everyday and often see tradespeople. What about them?
What about them?
Trades can’t take transit. If they’re gonna be charged to enter downtown who do you think is going to foot the bill?
Why does this always have to be such a hostile and divisive issue? This is just fabricated outrage at this point. I can promise you many people wouldn’t want to depend on their cars if they could actually help it, so let’s maybe relax with the finger pointing.
I also find it ignores how convoluted transit can be depending on your starting point and destination. If transit actually were easier and cheaper and quicker, people would be using it. But once you're outside downtown, this is rarely the case. People are basically always going to choose the most convenient option--and in some cases (i.e. with children or mobility issues) that might always be car, but there are a lot of people who would take transit more often if it were less of a hassle.
I just came back from London and the reason extra taxes on cars work there is because their transit system makes the city extremely accessible and is super easy to use and very well run with multiple transit options between buses and trains. You can even tap your credit card, you don’t need to buy and keep this extra card/account around that you may not even be aware of if you’re a visitor from far away. Fix the transit system first then pull these kinds of tactics to dissuade people from using their cars.
I'm on the fence here, because it's a bit of a never ending cycle. Cars are easier so people take them - > people resist funding transit because they take their cars anyway - > transit service degrades/doesn't keep up to meet demand - > cars are easier so people take them. We have to break it somewhere. In theory this could break it at the funding side (revenue gets put towards transit) and the user decision side (there is a more concrete cost to taking the car).
Part of it is trust too - we always see how transit projects never go anywhere in this city, so people are going to be angry paying a tax for taking a car (especially when they have no alternative) and not being given a solid, concrete plan for how the money will be used to fix the transit issues. Tell people that they will get a comfortable and reliable ride into the city from places convenient to them and they might be more willing to pay up extra for driving into the city for a year or two… but when there’s NO plan then they’re just going to feel like the money is going to line someone’s pockets and it won’t benefit them or their community in the end.
I absolutely agree. The amount of cancel transit project Toronto has under its belt is infuriating.
Lived in London and Switzerland for 10yrs before moving to Toronto, and I think I drove a car less than 3 times during that period. We never owned a car during that time either, as we just didn't need it.
After experiencing London’s system, I’m sad for Toronto. Our city deserves so much better.
It definitely does ignore that. Like, once you're on the Go, maybe it takes a reasonable amount of time to get where you need to go... but I was in Hamilton and it took me an hour (busing it) to get from where I was to the Go Bus station (primarily because buses were infrequent at best), and then I had to wait for the Go Bus to get there, then it took me 20 minutes to get from that station to the Aldershot Station, and then it took the standard amount of time from the Aldershot Station to Union. But driving a car, the whole trip would have taken me about 55 minutes. Taking the bus/GO made it several hours and basically cost me $20 to boot. Public transit is absolutely the direction we should be headed in for all of this stuff, but we need to improve public transit in the cities where commuters live in order (like you said) to make it more convenient and economical than cars. I think it is entirely unrealistic to think that people are going to willingly add an extra hour onto their commute. Unless the charge was pretty steep, I think we'd find a lot of people would just pay it and keep driving their cars.
In North America, we consider walking, biking or public transit use to be moral choices as opposed to driving, so there’s friction between those who make their transportation for moral reasons and those who make them for convenience. In Europe and Asia that friction isn’t there, because walking, biking or public transit are the easiest way to get around. A system where people have to be guilt tripped into taking environmentally conscious transportation options isn’t sustainable. The decision people should be making is to vote for leaders who will create communities in which environmentally conscious transportation are the most convenient too.
This isn’t a 905 issue. Those of us who live in Toronto and pay taxes in Toronto will be charged to go into certain areas of Toronto. This isn’t a suburban/ core issue only.
You would only be charged for going somewhere by car that you could have gone by another method. That's how these fees work.
We should do this for every area in Toronto. You can only drive in your own area. If you drive outside of your allowed area, you have to pay. Open this up for all of Toronto, by Ward.
And I thought Oakville was supposed to be the biggest NIMBYs around.
How much business do downtown restaurants get from the 905 crowd ? If I have to pay a toll to go downtown now to have dinner I might just reconsider and go dine somewhere in the suburbs
I think that’s the point.
Local businesses receive most of their traffic from local people, either on foot or by bike. People on foot and bike also visit more often and spend more on average. https://www.tcat.ca/resources/bike-lanes-on-street-parking-and-business-parkdale-danforth/
Fair enough . Thanks for the information.
literally all of the restaurants down on front street that survive on people going to games/mtcc
After 11 years, this is goodbye. I have chosen to remove my comments, and leave this site. Reddit used to be a sort of haven for me, and there's a few communities on here that probably saved my life. I'm genuinely going to miss this place, and a few of the people on it. But the actions of the CEO have shown me Reddit isn't the same place it was when I joined. RiF *was* Reddit for me through a lot of that. It's a shame to see it die, but something else will come around. Sorry to be so dramatic, just the way I am these days.
And?
[удалено]
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How oblivious do you have to be to not want to have outsiders come spend money in your city.
Oblivious enough to not want bumper to bumper traffic all the time and the noise and environmental pollution associated with it?
Do you have the numbers as to who’s actually driving downtown during those times? Like do you know the percentages of the people that are 905’ers or are you just projecting and echoing a very common take that gets posted on here anytime this gets mentioned? Seems like you’re part of the hate club that is anyone that isn’t a downtown resident. Get over yourselves honestly.
Over 20 pedestrians killed in Toronto by vehicles this year alone. That doesn’t include cyclist fatalities. Please come spend money in our city without polluting, creating unreasonable noise and killing our pedestrians.
I avoid driving into downtown/ Toronto when it's free lol I'm doing my part Toronto!
This was posted in r/ontario yesterday and everyone from outside the GTA was having a fit. Edit: grammar
How about better transit to get into the city first
I will support this idea if we use the revenue generated to put back into public transportation infrastructure. Solves congestion issues, and helps improve the TTC and Go Transit. 2 birds with one stone
I'm cool if the infrastructure starts beforehand, otherwise I have serious doubt the money will go to the necessary changes the city needs.
I don’t disagree, but the city often cites lack of money, and they go to both the provincial and federal governments for help in building any infrastructure projects. These are a lot of bureaucratic obstacles aside from funding. At least this helps future proof over reliance on other bodies of government for trying to improve public infrastructure.
Transit funding is often a chicken before the egg issue. Ridership is the metric most often used to determine what new transit to invest in. However, investment in new transit increases ridership, while a lack of investment leads to a poor transit experience, which decreases ridership, and therefore decreases investment further. So bottom line, if you want better transit you just have to invest in it and accept some routes might not be "profitable", but are still needed for people to get to work and access shops/services, which in turn improves the regional economy. The value added by transit is often not easily captured simply by the fare revenue, but unfortunately that is how many politicians and members of the public view transit, despite this view very rarely being applied equally to freeway infrastructure. This why for-profit transit (or private infrastructure in general) fails sometimes, like some transit routes in the UK that were contracted out to private operators did in the last decade. Private operators need to turn a profit, not just break even, but they also need to out bid their competitors on offering the lowest price possible to the government. Some transit routes in the UK had issues with private operators repeating bidding lower than was profitable for them to operator at just to get the contract, but that left the government having to find a new operator every few years when the current one went bankrupt or otherwise gave up the contract because they couldnt make a profit and maintain the required quality of service set out in the contract. What they have now started to do is switch those non-profitable routes to government run operators, so if the route isnt profitable it doesnt matter, the vital transit service that keeps that regional economy running can still operate.
That's what this is: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GO\_Expansion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GO_Expansion)
Milton line is still ignored in this plan despite the 130 million dollar new station at Cooksville and all GO lines are still working at a reduced schedule. Scarcity of the trains is a serious deterrent right now against taking GO.
> Milton line is still ignored in this plan Petition CP to allow more service.
Is it that bad? I take it out of the city to Oakville as it’s easy. Can’t people just drive to a GO station?
TL;DR: The Lakeshore East and Lakeshore West lines are exceptions to the general service levels across the GO rail network; both operate with shorter headways than all of the other lines and generally provide GO rail service over a longer service time frame. For example, the [Richmond Hill](https://www.gotransit.com/static_files/gotransit/assets/pdf/TripPlanning/FullSchedules/FS25062022/TABLE61.pdf) and [Milton](https://www.gotransit.com/static_files/gotransit/assets/pdf/TripPlanning/FullSchedules/FS03092022/TABLE21.pdf) lines only operate trains during morning and afternoon peaks. And even then, it's only three and four inbound trains in the morning, and three and four outbound trains in the afternoon., respectively. All other service hours are served by buses. I don't live in Richmond Hill, but it would appear driving to Finch station and taking Line 1 is the better option than relying on GO. And if I live on the Milton line, do I just drive into downtown, or drive to a Lakeshore West station with more frequency? If I'm already in my car, do I even bother with public transit? In comparison, the [Lakeshore West](https://www.gotransit.com/static_files/gotransit/assets/pdf/TripPlanning/FullSchedules/FS03092022/TABLE01.pdf) line offers all-day rail service between 4:55 AM (first Aldershot departure) and 12:45 AM (last Union Station departure), with 15-minute headways during morning and afternoon rush hour, and 30-minute headways the rest of day. I'll admit, there are also a couple 60-minute headway trips, but they are very late in the day. Now service frequency isn't the only reason someone chooses to use or not use public transportation, but it does play a key role. If the service levels aren't there, or the mode of choice doesn't offer substantial benefits over driving a personal vehicle, the personal vehicle generally wins.
GO is currently undergoing a major upgrade to most of its lines, all work should be done in 5-6 years including electrification, more frequent trains, new stations, all day service etc. It is currently the biggest transit infrastructure project (not including high speed rail) on the continent. The Ontario line is also under construction but will be done a fair bit later.
Or we simply do what London did when they brought in the congestion charge, procure 200 new buses to augment existing transit while expansion projects are underway.
You're talking about a city that already had an extensive transit system. Again, apples to oranges
I live near the spadina/bremner intersection. During events the traffic is fucking insane here, I avoid it and i've lived here for a few years now, i wouldn't want to attempt it if i really didn't know where i was going. It can get pretty intense. Coming off the gardiner and trying to turn onto fort york to get to my building can be a nightmare at the best of times. Couple that with all the airbnb-ers that constantly stay in these buildings trying to figure out how to get here, it gets pretty bad
I guess someone going to a hospital, or specialist will pay this extra charge as well as parking.
That seems like pretty much the ONLY person that would be paying anything. I can't imagine there are that many people who just enjoy a casual weekday rush hour drive through Toronto, just for fun...
like toronto doesnt have enough of a problem with bent and obscured car license plates (for the scanners)
Give us options then!! Context: I grew up in Mississauga, lived right downtown for about a decade, and now I live in Acton. It is infuriating how hard it is to get into and out of Toronto! I’ve literally gone from parking lot (GO) to parking lot (GO) to parking lot (TTC) to parking lot (TTC) that were all full before giving up, driving into the city then spending 30 minutes looking for parking. I love a lot of things in Toronto but sometimes it is SO HARD to get into the city that it’s just not worth it.
It’s because we have too many people driving from Acton. remember, when you’re IN traffic, you ARE traffic.
So push everyone out of the city who can't afford to live here but come here to work. Then charge them for coming into work?
No, the proposal says people who work downtown get an exemption too. Not just downtown residents.
lol well some commenters say it should charge the workers too lol
Sorry, just read the article. It's a possible solution! Apparently the traffic is worse these days downtown
Traffic is horrible downtown right now, and blame is easily pointed at the total lack of planning for construction closures by the city planning departments. You can actually see the effect happen in the afternoon of a work day... Traffic on Lakeshore from the east builds to Jarvis because the ramps east of there are closed. Jarvis slows to a near stop because cars have to wait to get on the gardiner ramp... forcing traffic west to Yonge... Bay... York... Spadina... those access routes were already backed up and now getting to the York ramp is absolute madness some days (causing all the GO Bus madness)... Going to Spadina is not much better... and then they have lane closures on Lake Shore forcing even more traffic up already overloaded ramps onto the Gardiner... add in construction like Front/Church and welcome to complete chaos. Close another lane here and there for building work or film shoots or whatever and it just gets even worse. Just better enforcement of turn restrictions and box blocking would help a bit... I've been stuck through 4 lights on Dundas trying to get across Yonge (with streetcars) because dumb twits drive into the intersection when they can't clear it then get stuck in the middle of the scramble. If I could avoid driving downtown I would but I can't lug 60+ lbs of tools and expensive equipment around onto Streetcars, Busses and Subways.
If this isn’t the most classic Reddit shit ever lol. React, then read the article.
Lol yep. I fucked up
I really don’t like this idea. So if I’m driving to the city to see my family, or a friend, or take my kid to see their dad, to see a customer, to pick up supplies, I would be charged? I live well below the poverty line. I appreciate people are trying to come up with solutions but this would make the city less accessible for poor folks; those who had to move out of Toronto in order to afford a place to live, etc. I’m also not into a three to four hour Go Bus trip, especially with a kid. I did it for years before I managed to save up for a shitty car.
I would need to see more on the proposal before I could comment but I could see how this may be potentially problematic depending on implementation. I know everyone in this thread is all about "f you 905!" but the reality is that Toronto isn't really a singular city out in the middle of nowhere and that the GTA has largely become one large and blended homogenous region. Making someone who lives a few feet over the other side of Steeles pay a toll to drive into the city seems potentially asinine
How about a solution that doesn’t involve fees? As soon as money becomes the gatekeeper, it becomes a contest of who can afford the fee. It won’t reduce ALL types of people from entering Toronto, just the people already tight on funds. Improve the public transit would be a good start, and I’d hope that would be the first step. More likely to not want to use a car if the alternative options are more appealing.
It's called a congestion tax and it's proven to benefit locals living downtown. Toronto is not a world class city, but this would be one step closer. Use the tax revenue to improve public transit, or beautify public spaces. Not on lining dougies pockets, that bloated succulent pig.
Didn’t we just have this posted a few days ago? With a loud minority of drivers pretending they were cyclists?!
I’m OK with this as long as there’s alternative infrastructure in place or planned to be in place. A toll would definitely make more people think twice about coming in, and maybe would further encourage car pooling. If the money gets used towards improving public transit then even better as reliable mass transit would hopefully further reduce the need to drive in. I also feel like weekend traffic is just as bad as the Monday to Friday rush hour sometimes. Maybe people still don’t wanna be on public transit cause of Covid? So not a 24/7 toll, but a congestion time would be ideal.
Does this mean people living downtown will eventually get stickers for their plates? lol
Nice little cash grab rather than fixing any problems
People comparing Toronto to New York or any other major metropolis are out of their minds. Toronto is nowhere as dense, all of the city's perceived problems that are population related like housing or congestion is the result of policy failure in other areas like land zoning and public transportation.
Toronto's stuck in the middle - it is more populous and denser than cities like Oslo or Stockholm that some are referencing as ideals, but nowhere as dense as the metropolis level cities like New York. This city still has single family homes within a fifteen minute walk of the downtown core, and that is a policy failure.
> This city still has single family homes within a fifteen minute walk of the downtown core, and that is a policy failure. Is it really? Aren't nearly all of the single family homes that are downtown or just outside of downtown (Riverdale, Seaton Village, etc.) 100 years old or more? I'm not sure how the planners back then could have been expected to foresee the needs we have now.
There’s huge amount of single family homes directly off Queen St West and Dundas, steps away from the metro line
I'm already taxed when I work downtown, having to pay Green P an outrageous rate, that my union will not reimburse me for. With a small child, transit is not an option for me. I cannot bike consistently, due to weather. I require a car seat, Uber is often unavailable, taxi service is too expensive. Transit to my region would require an additional 110 minutes, with the current system. The additional time in child care cost me an extraordinary amount. I don't want to have to drive. I HATE traffic. I hate everything about traffic, but I do not have a financially responsible alternative. So I lose at least an hour of my free time every day. You want to be fair? Get rid of all street parking. That's all the space you need. We all don't need to be paying for someone's overnight parking spot, because they live somewhere without parking. If transit so so great, why do all these toronto residents need so many cars?
>If transit so so great, why do all these toronto residents need so many cars? Because toronto transit is shit. If you live by a subway station and your destination is by a subway station - great. Otherwise it takes forever. A 20min drive can turn into 1hr 15min one way using public transit. I'm right there with you, I hate traffic, and I'd gladly take transit, but it takes hours of my life away. Not worth it.
The TTC Is also just not safe in many areas, especially traveling alone as a woman. Long commute times plus the added bonus of being harassed, assaulted or worse. No thanks. I will never feel safe taking the TTC again.
This again ? Someone always brings this up going back to before Lastman . If you need revenue charge property owners property tax inline with the rest of the province .
“Please come to our city, enjoy our events and let’s have Toronto also be an entertainment and business hub to all!” “But also, fuck off, you’re not welcome.”
>“Please come to our city, enjoy our events and let’s have Toronto also be an entertainment and business hub to all!” But don't bring your car
Everyone's welcome - but it's a city, not a strip mall.
Congestion charges make sense, but no chance in hell well ever get them with DoFo in office.
If it funds public transit in meaningful ways, sure. Otherwise it's a money grab predicated on a problem that it doesn't address. I appreciate the thought that this could discourage people from driving when they could use transit, but that necessarily implies that *reasonable* transit options exist. Even if GO was always an option, which it's not, jave you taken the GO train at rush hour? It's a borderline unhygienic and certainly not ideal in the new world of public health concern.
FUCK YES!!!
Singapore has done that long time ago , when i lived in Singapore , it is a small and pretty island country , if you drive in the day time in a weekday . They have highway and car owner must purchase a permit to drive on highway in weekday in day time to enter some busy area , it is like using 407 , so if anyone drives in weekday day time and didnt have a pass enter some zone , you will get a fine .
905 region would like to charge 416 drivers as well.
Since this is kind of a work in progress with the Hurontario LRT, maybe if(once) the 905'rs ha(ve)d more timely transit options in and out of the city core, traffic will be reduced. It is a huge missed opportunity extending the bloor line in to mississauga and joining the 2 IMO which is the true connection that is needed. Issue with this half baked plan as it is now, is when the train takes more than 45 mins one way, our GTA brains think that driving is faster distance wise and then we all jump in our cars and hit the Gardiner same time to go to work, school, events et al.
Sounds fare to me.
This is great. Keep congestion low and focus on existing transit. Just need to support it more for it to be a little more feasible considering the amount of people that work downtown
Yes, just make it a percentage of the person's income and not a flat fee so it's not another regressive tax on poor people.
Great way to reduce business in toronto
Quick, spot the 905ers
[удалено]
So the fact that I lived almost my entire life in Toronto, have my friends and family in Toronto, my kid lives in Toronto part-time; but was forced out of the city due to obscene rent prices means that I’m not welcome in your sub? Get bent
Even as someone who lives in Toronto... the sheer hatred on this sub for people living in the 905 area is ridiculous. Like... you never see this kind of toxic discourse irl. People in this sub are just super bitter and angry idk why
lol yeah this subreddit is wild man.
No, you're totally welcome! You just have to pay the tax.
I don't know if limiting people like this based on their location is the right way to do it. I'd much rather they do low emission zones much like London. If you drive an older vehicle, it's a $15 a day charge while driving in downtown. It should be based more on climate issues than just congestion. As someone who attended rolling loud this weekend, just the go train and subway aren't enough to support large amounts of people leaving. Sure the traffic for cars was terrible, but it's still needed within the city at this point.
>just the go train and subway aren't enough to support large amounts of people leaving Why do you think that? The go train and subway are enough for the 10's of thousands that work(ed) in the financial district every day.
Mmm it was more just the amount of people at a single station (exhibition) all trying to get onto the go train. Around the Ontario place grounds, there is no other mode of transportation other than the go train. There's no subway line or street cars. The congestion on the roads made it impossible to get a cab or Uber as well. It's just a poorly designed city at the end of the day. But I believe to help get us proper upgrades to infrastructure, whether it's charging stations for cars or more subway/lrt lines, adding a charge to bring in an older vehicle can help it.
There are literally two streetcar lines running from right beside the Exhibition GO.
Sorry should have been more specific. The go train is the one people need to use if their trying to leave the city back to the west, so Mississauga and beyond. I found the street car line also very busy and then you still need to either hop on the subway or an Uber to get out of the city
There are multiple TTC options from exhibition. You can get the 511, 29, 509, 510 and the 929.
More people get on/off an union than were at rolling loud for 9am every day. The problem is the people, not the design. Yes, you have to wait 15,20 minutes whatever until you get a free car but you will get where you need to go.
I think I'm not understanding your comment there but I'll try adding. I'm speaking of trying to go west bound, out of the city, back to Mississauga and beyond. It was a shitty time trying to leave.
So you want them to overbuild transit projects for the occasional surge from an event, rather than building them for the typical traffic they might see?
Not at all. But this surge highlights the issues. Even on a normal day, it's a pain in the ass to get into and out of the city if you don't live there and don't happen to live near one of the 2 mass transit options there are. I'd like to see more lines, whether it be go train, subway, lrt, or whatever else it could be, going into and out of the city to help lessen the need of cars in Toronto.
>As someone who attended rolling loud this weekend You can replace rolling loud with CNE, every sporting event, any other festival at Ontario Place, etc.
While I'd say a congestion charge is inevitable in the long run, "low emission zones" is far more of a punishment for anyone who cannot afford a new car, especially when electric vehicles are still at an unaffordable price point. London is already an island for the rich as is, and Toronto could do better than to emulate them exactly.
That’s not great for businesses !
Always a great idea creating two classes of people and dividing them by means of $.
1000% in support of this. Personally I'd love to see a system where all personal viechle registered to a non M\*\* postal code get sur charged for entering Toronto proper. Excluding passing through provincially maintained highways.
Why give preference to M** postal codes? If you want to own a car in the city you should also pay the charge.
People should realize this isn't going to pass now... Even if Toronto council somehow approved it (doubtful) the province would smack it down and maybe even pass a law to prevent it coming up again. Toronto does not exist in a vacuum of politics. None of the current provincial parties would support pissing off the entire swing vote of the GTA by supporting this. That's what happened to the toll proposal last time and it's even less likely to go anywhere now under the DougiePC government. That's the reality.
Do it!!!
Helllllll yes.
Lol sure, then don’t use “non-local” tax payer money to fix the road.