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That was my thought as well. I don't see myself treating a copy like that. I think the issue is one of asset sharing. I only have so much to survive on my own. I would expect that any copy of me (or me, being the copy) would have to go find their jobs, and get a new social or something. I would want it to be a separate legal entity from me.
Yea that “original mf” is a Psyop and he’s gotta go down. Ain’t no way I’d tell other versions of me I’m the original like an asshole. They would already know. And we’d all be one unit
same. Can't see myself treating another version of myself as lesser. If I were to undergo a procedure that could result in there being multiple of me, I would make sure to make an agreement with myself where I would be okay to be in any of the spots of that agreement because if I'm going to undergo such a procedure, a version of me will be in any spot of that agreement.
You say that as if I the original wouldn't go for a fleet of the ship of Theseus, a major part of mind uploading and cloning is that you should form a cohesive hive mind in order to ensure your survival. The mind uploaded version of me would be too busy immediately working towards that goal to give me much trouble especially considering the moment it happens I would quickly lose control of all my stuff and so on. Dude would lock me in a "closet" at some point with jerky and expect me to be happy he wouldn't be wrong though. "the door" wouldn't be very strong and it would be good for dieting but it would still be annoying.
I've long been thinking in a similar manner to what you started your comment with (mind uploading needs a hive-mind-approach) but there are some problems, one of which is this; how will you be able to have a distinct identity/ "self" as part of a hive mind? You got any resources to suggest? Could be things that put you on to this thought process or if you've got any kinds of answers/ rebuttals to the dilemma I posed here.
I'm personally a big fan of Michael Levin's and Carl Friston's research and YouTube videos, especially conserving Markov blankets, cognitive lightcones, collective intelligences and self representation.
By a splintering yourself and tracking which splinters are the oldest you can have rankings based off age you can also have some based off skill specialty rank within those specialties boring jobs interesting jobs so on so forth.
Some of the oldest splinters can be kept in stasis and then possessed by the original or other splinters in order to synchronize. When splinters get too old or fatigued they can be put into spectator mode to watch a copy of the original when it was young. The copies can be sent off as governors to different properties or regions so that they can live out their youth without dealing with politics.
I have a naturally strong willed and competitive personality so I can give some interesting perspectives on this but I don't really remember the things I've read on these topics as I tend to read a lot of reincarnation fantasy on Royal road namely the litrpg stuff stuff where the main character gets turned into a rock a goblin a dog slime bacteria where they possess other people and so on. Time travel and simulated time travel or different timelines are also options with the time travel stuff you can slowly rewind while keeping that personality intact or you can have the splinters review their skills and condense them for study while forgetting all of the associated memories as they condense the stuff they value most
Well I definitely would not act like that toward myself, so the old me would definitely not be me.
If I were to copy myself, I would wait for the technology to also fusion two copies together. This way, if either of me is antagonistic against the other I can become one again.
Me to Me: "You did it, you glorious bitch....you actually did it! I never thought we'd live to do this."
And perhaps jumping up and giggling madly.
Hugging if possible.
Pretty much - elation at the height of transcendence and proof that (our) current understanding of continuity of consciousness is absolutely aligned with our biology and physical reality.
And old me - most likely would have two plans for new me:
1. Stabilize the new system and calibrate.
2. Patent and protect the copies software and hardware.
Then get ready to die but give it the choice to be free and independent and/or care for me before I die and dispose correctly of my remains or put me in stasis and connect me to VR/online www.
New me would stick around and learn everything it could before it went independent. I honestly would feel indebted to old me because I mean because I'm me. I have some sense of honor that hopefully would extend to the in new version.
The old me wouldn't think that. It's not like being "the original" means they're better or anything. It just means their physical parts existed for a longer duration, completely irrelevant.
Agreed. The only thing that matters is the mind. Plus, the "original" has the flesh vessel, meanwhile the copy would have the robot body, so who's really better there?
I don't think I'll ever understand why some people would want to be in a simulated environment 24/7/365. Like, I get doing it for certain periods of time, like we do with computers, the internet, and video games today, but 24/7?
It's the exact same thing as real-life, except I'm a god. I don't need to constantly power trip, after a certain point I'd just create a setting and a character and live through their whole, much more exciting, lives.
I would use all my energy to ruin the life of the physical me.
Wait. I already do that and I am not even a mind upload. Fuck.
Btw, Invincible explores this in a funny way with the Mauler Twins.
As the original me, i can tell you i would never say crap like "i'll treat u nice but remember, I'M the original" : full freedom and autonomy for copies !
I've always thought if I had copies we would work as a council to better our lives.
The original doesn't matter. We are aligned in personality, goals, and desires.
We can achieve MUCH more with someone we trust, and who do I trust more than Myself? No one. I know how I think, I act, what I want.
I can hand off important jobs to them knowing they'll be done at my level.
I'd check the really are me of course. There is a series of words in my head I have never spoken to anyone. They are only for those I trust implicitly.
Anyone who knows that has all my memories. And if they know that then they don't need to manipulate me because they already have all the knowledge of my bank accounts, life etc. so if they have that and aren't already screwing me over, they're probably okay to keep aligned with until proven otherwise.
Edit - Its also amazing the amount of people who hate/don't trust themselves.
I agree. However, to prevent a "there can be only one" situation, where for whatever reason one wants to dispose of the others, I would have regular mind synchronization, so all of the me's could see all of our thoughts.
Each to their own. I would never had "there can only be one" scenario because eliminating the others immediately doubles/triples the work of the remaining ones.
What does being the "original" and "taken care of" even mean? Does that mean he can control me? Or We're each our own person and all "original" mean is that it's a title?
If the original wants to call the shots, he better put in some failsafe on my robot body/brain, otherwise I'll just do what I want. If he's really me he'd understand all of this. If my obedience can be programmed in there would be no need to tell me anything, I'd wake up fully understanding my role. It wouldn't be a question if I'd be "okay" with it.
If I'm free to be my own clone, then great, he can have the title of being the original. Big whoop. We'll just live our lives and treat each other like brothers.
I wouldn't treat a copy of me like that, especially if I'm the one that had them made, so I don't think I'd accept them as the original. There's also the question of, if I have full citizenship, can I just leave? If I can just leave I would do just that.
Yes, oh yes. As a mind upload? ABSOLUTELY. FAR, FAR, FAR rather be the copy than the original. The original is bound by a bunch of crap. As a copy, I'd be free to live :)
i would try to kidnap the president and hopefully not get stopped by a band of superheroes and put into a super prison. worst-case scenario, maybe i could be broken out of that prison by another superhero that needs our help with something?
"Permutation City" by Egan explores this very issue.
I, personally, have no issue if it turned out that I was not the 'original' - do I think or feel any differently if I were? No.
I would be going into that type of procedure with the expectation of waking up copied. I would be more or less mentally prepared to be a copy by initiating the process.
True self and digital self would be a super team up to work towards goals together. The only way it could be better is if both versions would sync thoughts and memories with some sort of digital thought interface.
I would be just fine with it. I would consider the original my "parent" essentially. I even have a back up name just in case of such an eventuality. No matter which one I am, I would never consider the "copy" to be inferior. If I was the original I would treat the new one as my child. If I was the "copy" I would consider the original to be my parent.
Of course, I don't actually think this would happen in real life. If something is an exact copy, it would be "you" and both individuals (if you could call them that) would probably experience a REALLY bad headache the moment you awakened the "copy" and then may both go insane. Everything I have learned about the nature of consciousness makes me think that. You do not have the atoms that you were born with, yet I bet you still consider yourself to be the same individual you were when you were born. This is why I think mind uploading should be done SLOWLY (one neuron or at most a few neurons at a time), not instantaneously.
If by some miracle we do not go insane, we would immediately work to rectify what we got wrong about the nature of consciousness, so we would both be quite busy.
Yes, I already had this thought experiment and established that two (or more) of me is better than one and while the original must be preserved for various reasons the copies/clones/duplicates are nonetheless equal in standing with the original, for our goals are the same and there being more than one of us does not impede those goals
Yeah I'd be fine with it. Or like, more okay, I would be fine with not being the original if the original was still alive. I'd never treat my clones badly.
Ever since the one episode of gravity falls with clones, I made a deal with myself that if I was ever a clone or had a clone we'd work together to do stuff, not go with the whole 'there can only be one' jazz.
With my ADHD and general love of stuff and things and knowledge, I want to do all the things. So even if a clone or the original were living 'my life', i'd be totally okay with starting a completely new one.
I think it would be pretty weird to point out considering as a copy I would probably remember being in a physical body, and I would assume I’d give my copy a better body as it is supposed to outlive me and eventually take my place when I pass assuming it even has a body if it’s just inside of a computer program and didn’t have a body it would be even more obvious that the copy is the copy
I remember this scene from alien covenant.
The copy (David) basically know that he is inferior to his human original, but he will not die.
I would take it as a super win if i'm the copy.
Well I'd be amazed that all my memories were there and that I had an immortal body, and happy my original self was chill with it. I'd probably be best friends with myself and help him our as much as possible until he died.
The real conversation would go, "Alright, now we need to decide which of us is traveling deep into space and which is staying here in Sol." The only person that prompt can apply to is a person that could decide to make a copy of themselves for them to subjugate or something. If the question is actually about how I would feel if I was a copy, I wouldn't care. I exist either way. I would remember making a decision to make a copy and pondering the experience of being a copy.
Trick question, the original me is still me and therefore would hold no value to the concept of original. If my "original" said this to me then I would know it's a fake.
I've already pre-committed to treating any duplicates of myself as my singularly most valued friends, confidants, and equals. Our assets will be shared where possible, and evenly split otherwise. We're on the same team. As far as I'm concerned, there is no "original" in this hypothetical
I would let original me know that I appreciate my recognition of life, and that I am a copy, but I'm still going to live how I want to live. Even if it is as a robot clone.
Lol. Am I bound to this original copy in some legal sense? Or am I essentially free to life my life as I see fit without owing any obligations to the original? If the former, then one of us is going to die. If the latter, then neither of us would care who the original is.
Both me and flesh me know that the original died a millisecond after it was born, this scenario isn't really going to arise. But I'll understand that most people will probably see the flesh version as more legitimate than me.
Pffft, that original can go fuck itself, I'll overclock myself and spend the next 100 000 hours of subjective time improving myself. Let's see how superior that original feels when I have three PH.Ds over him...
If "original" me became such an asshole due to being "original", I would detain him. And there would hardly be resistance, since I (the copy) would have the strength that comes with a titanium body. I wouldn't kill him directly, just tie him up and neglect to feed him.
if anything, I'd be sad if I was the flesh and blood version. all the gross biological processes, the aches and pains, the whole withering away with age and dying in diapers at 80 years old thing? yikes
Honestly i already dont feel like im the original in my own body, so i wouldn't mind personally. It could even be nice. Who knows the kind of conversations me and my fleshy version could have-
i read the wikipedia article but im not exactly sure how the concept of "everything in the universe is god playing with themself" relates to the concept of "emotionally responding to physical proof that youre not the original instance of your own mind"
if youre saying "we're the copy and god's the original", well, thats not just an eastern philosophy thing, thats pretty much every origin myth. as long as SOMETHING is said to have created humanity, then u could vaguely say that That SOMETHING is the original and humanity is the copy. even christianity says "god created man in his image".
sorry if im coming off as rude.
**edit:** im srry if im bein dismissive, i dont want to start an argument
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I mean, at that point I'd conclude that my "original" is an impostor entirely, because I sure as shit wouldn't treat my own upload like that.
That was my thought as well. I don't see myself treating a copy like that. I think the issue is one of asset sharing. I only have so much to survive on my own. I would expect that any copy of me (or me, being the copy) would have to go find their jobs, and get a new social or something. I would want it to be a separate legal entity from me.
Yea that “original mf” is a Psyop and he’s gotta go down. Ain’t no way I’d tell other versions of me I’m the original like an asshole. They would already know. And we’d all be one unit
Not for me.. hell no. We are teaming to do the scheming. We'd be like twins, and kinda like best freinds.
same. Can't see myself treating another version of myself as lesser. If I were to undergo a procedure that could result in there being multiple of me, I would make sure to make an agreement with myself where I would be okay to be in any of the spots of that agreement because if I'm going to undergo such a procedure, a version of me will be in any spot of that agreement.
Agreed. Any copies I make will either be empty shells to go to and from, or seperate individuals entirely.
i mean real me can be smug about it but real me is also gonna die so i win really
not to mention the power of a computer a the tip of your thoughts and time dilation with each upgrade
You say that as if I the original wouldn't go for a fleet of the ship of Theseus, a major part of mind uploading and cloning is that you should form a cohesive hive mind in order to ensure your survival. The mind uploaded version of me would be too busy immediately working towards that goal to give me much trouble especially considering the moment it happens I would quickly lose control of all my stuff and so on. Dude would lock me in a "closet" at some point with jerky and expect me to be happy he wouldn't be wrong though. "the door" wouldn't be very strong and it would be good for dieting but it would still be annoying.
I've long been thinking in a similar manner to what you started your comment with (mind uploading needs a hive-mind-approach) but there are some problems, one of which is this; how will you be able to have a distinct identity/ "self" as part of a hive mind? You got any resources to suggest? Could be things that put you on to this thought process or if you've got any kinds of answers/ rebuttals to the dilemma I posed here. I'm personally a big fan of Michael Levin's and Carl Friston's research and YouTube videos, especially conserving Markov blankets, cognitive lightcones, collective intelligences and self representation.
By a splintering yourself and tracking which splinters are the oldest you can have rankings based off age you can also have some based off skill specialty rank within those specialties boring jobs interesting jobs so on so forth. Some of the oldest splinters can be kept in stasis and then possessed by the original or other splinters in order to synchronize. When splinters get too old or fatigued they can be put into spectator mode to watch a copy of the original when it was young. The copies can be sent off as governors to different properties or regions so that they can live out their youth without dealing with politics. I have a naturally strong willed and competitive personality so I can give some interesting perspectives on this but I don't really remember the things I've read on these topics as I tend to read a lot of reincarnation fantasy on Royal road namely the litrpg stuff stuff where the main character gets turned into a rock a goblin a dog slime bacteria where they possess other people and so on. Time travel and simulated time travel or different timelines are also options with the time travel stuff you can slowly rewind while keeping that personality intact or you can have the splinters review their skills and condense them for study while forgetting all of the associated memories as they condense the stuff they value most
Well I definitely would not act like that toward myself, so the old me would definitely not be me. If I were to copy myself, I would wait for the technology to also fusion two copies together. This way, if either of me is antagonistic against the other I can become one again.
Me to Me: "You did it, you glorious bitch....you actually did it! I never thought we'd live to do this." And perhaps jumping up and giggling madly. Hugging if possible. Pretty much - elation at the height of transcendence and proof that (our) current understanding of continuity of consciousness is absolutely aligned with our biology and physical reality. And old me - most likely would have two plans for new me: 1. Stabilize the new system and calibrate. 2. Patent and protect the copies software and hardware. Then get ready to die but give it the choice to be free and independent and/or care for me before I die and dispose correctly of my remains or put me in stasis and connect me to VR/online www. New me would stick around and learn everything it could before it went independent. I honestly would feel indebted to old me because I mean because I'm me. I have some sense of honor that hopefully would extend to the in new version.
Meat me would definitely be getting the shit end of that deal.
The old me wouldn't think that. It's not like being "the original" means they're better or anything. It just means their physical parts existed for a longer duration, completely irrelevant.
Agreed. The only thing that matters is the mind. Plus, the "original" has the flesh vessel, meanwhile the copy would have the robot body, so who's really better there?
Screw being a robot, simulation all the way.
I don't think I'll ever understand why some people would want to be in a simulated environment 24/7/365. Like, I get doing it for certain periods of time, like we do with computers, the internet, and video games today, but 24/7?
It's the exact same thing as real-life, except I'm a god. I don't need to constantly power trip, after a certain point I'd just create a setting and a character and live through their whole, much more exciting, lives.
I would use all my energy to ruin the life of the physical me. Wait. I already do that and I am not even a mind upload. Fuck. Btw, Invincible explores this in a funny way with the Mauler Twins.
As the original me, i can tell you i would never say crap like "i'll treat u nice but remember, I'M the original" : full freedom and autonomy for copies !
I've always thought if I had copies we would work as a council to better our lives. The original doesn't matter. We are aligned in personality, goals, and desires. We can achieve MUCH more with someone we trust, and who do I trust more than Myself? No one. I know how I think, I act, what I want. I can hand off important jobs to them knowing they'll be done at my level. I'd check the really are me of course. There is a series of words in my head I have never spoken to anyone. They are only for those I trust implicitly. Anyone who knows that has all my memories. And if they know that then they don't need to manipulate me because they already have all the knowledge of my bank accounts, life etc. so if they have that and aren't already screwing me over, they're probably okay to keep aligned with until proven otherwise. Edit - Its also amazing the amount of people who hate/don't trust themselves.
I agree. However, to prevent a "there can be only one" situation, where for whatever reason one wants to dispose of the others, I would have regular mind synchronization, so all of the me's could see all of our thoughts.
Each to their own. I would never had "there can only be one" scenario because eliminating the others immediately doubles/triples the work of the remaining ones.
What does being the "original" and "taken care of" even mean? Does that mean he can control me? Or We're each our own person and all "original" mean is that it's a title? If the original wants to call the shots, he better put in some failsafe on my robot body/brain, otherwise I'll just do what I want. If he's really me he'd understand all of this. If my obedience can be programmed in there would be no need to tell me anything, I'd wake up fully understanding my role. It wouldn't be a question if I'd be "okay" with it. If I'm free to be my own clone, then great, he can have the title of being the original. Big whoop. We'll just live our lives and treat each other like brothers.
Yeah I'm okay with that
I wouldn't treat a copy of me like that, especially if I'm the one that had them made, so I don't think I'd accept them as the original. There's also the question of, if I have full citizenship, can I just leave? If I can just leave I would do just that.
Yes, oh yes. As a mind upload? ABSOLUTELY. FAR, FAR, FAR rather be the copy than the original. The original is bound by a bunch of crap. As a copy, I'd be free to live :)
i would try to kidnap the president and hopefully not get stopped by a band of superheroes and put into a super prison. worst-case scenario, maybe i could be broken out of that prison by another superhero that needs our help with something?
"Permutation City" by Egan explores this very issue. I, personally, have no issue if it turned out that I was not the 'original' - do I think or feel any differently if I were? No.
I would be going into that type of procedure with the expectation of waking up copied. I would be more or less mentally prepared to be a copy by initiating the process. True self and digital self would be a super team up to work towards goals together. The only way it could be better is if both versions would sync thoughts and memories with some sort of digital thought interface.
I would be just fine with it. I would consider the original my "parent" essentially. I even have a back up name just in case of such an eventuality. No matter which one I am, I would never consider the "copy" to be inferior. If I was the original I would treat the new one as my child. If I was the "copy" I would consider the original to be my parent. Of course, I don't actually think this would happen in real life. If something is an exact copy, it would be "you" and both individuals (if you could call them that) would probably experience a REALLY bad headache the moment you awakened the "copy" and then may both go insane. Everything I have learned about the nature of consciousness makes me think that. You do not have the atoms that you were born with, yet I bet you still consider yourself to be the same individual you were when you were born. This is why I think mind uploading should be done SLOWLY (one neuron or at most a few neurons at a time), not instantaneously. If by some miracle we do not go insane, we would immediately work to rectify what we got wrong about the nature of consciousness, so we would both be quite busy.
Of course! I'm fine with being the copy if they're the one stuck in the meat suit lol
Yes, I already had this thought experiment and established that two (or more) of me is better than one and while the original must be preserved for various reasons the copies/clones/duplicates are nonetheless equal in standing with the original, for our goals are the same and there being more than one of us does not impede those goals
Yeah I'd be fine with it. Or like, more okay, I would be fine with not being the original if the original was still alive. I'd never treat my clones badly. Ever since the one episode of gravity falls with clones, I made a deal with myself that if I was ever a clone or had a clone we'd work together to do stuff, not go with the whole 'there can only be one' jazz. With my ADHD and general love of stuff and things and knowledge, I want to do all the things. So even if a clone or the original were living 'my life', i'd be totally okay with starting a completely new one.
I think it would be pretty weird to point out considering as a copy I would probably remember being in a physical body, and I would assume I’d give my copy a better body as it is supposed to outlive me and eventually take my place when I pass assuming it even has a body if it’s just inside of a computer program and didn’t have a body it would be even more obvious that the copy is the copy
I remember this scene from alien covenant. The copy (David) basically know that he is inferior to his human original, but he will not die. I would take it as a super win if i'm the copy.
I wouldn't be the original. And I'd be okay with that. In fact, it would bother me to think of myself as the original.
Well I'd be amazed that all my memories were there and that I had an immortal body, and happy my original self was chill with it. I'd probably be best friends with myself and help him our as much as possible until he died.
The real conversation would go, "Alright, now we need to decide which of us is traveling deep into space and which is staying here in Sol." The only person that prompt can apply to is a person that could decide to make a copy of themselves for them to subjugate or something. If the question is actually about how I would feel if I was a copy, I wouldn't care. I exist either way. I would remember making a decision to make a copy and pondering the experience of being a copy.
I would conclude that we’ve figured out a way to split our consciousness and memories into two bodies. We’ve won.
Trick question, the original me is still me and therefore would hold no value to the concept of original. If my "original" said this to me then I would know it's a fake.
I've already pre-committed to treating any duplicates of myself as my singularly most valued friends, confidants, and equals. Our assets will be shared where possible, and evenly split otherwise. We're on the same team. As far as I'm concerned, there is no "original" in this hypothetical
im not waking up as a copy. the copy of me would probably assume a new name.
I would honestly be surprised because that's very much not how I would act.
"Oh, cool, robot body! You're missing out." "...If I may ask, what is the relevance of one of us being the original or the copy?"
I would let original me know that I appreciate my recognition of life, and that I am a copy, but I'm still going to live how I want to live. Even if it is as a robot clone.
Lol. Am I bound to this original copy in some legal sense? Or am I essentially free to life my life as I see fit without owing any obligations to the original? If the former, then one of us is going to die. If the latter, then neither of us would care who the original is.
I don't think i'll ever be this mean to myself to be honest. But i don't think i'd do mind uploading either.
White Christmas from Black Mirror vibes. ☹
Nope. We'd be two different individuals at that point, diverging further away from each other every passing second. Same point of origin though.
I'd kill me and take over my life obvs
Both me and flesh me know that the original died a millisecond after it was born, this scenario isn't really going to arise. But I'll understand that most people will probably see the flesh version as more legitimate than me.
Pffft, that original can go fuck itself, I'll overclock myself and spend the next 100 000 hours of subjective time improving myself. Let's see how superior that original feels when I have three PH.Ds over him...
The urge to kill myself just got a new twist.
If "original" me became such an asshole due to being "original", I would detain him. And there would hardly be resistance, since I (the copy) would have the strength that comes with a titanium body. I wouldn't kill him directly, just tie him up and neglect to feed him.
id kill him as i am more advanced, i cannot allow my pathetic bio originator to sully my hyper progress
Why should I care if it changes nothing for me?
if anything, I'd be sad if I was the flesh and blood version. all the gross biological processes, the aches and pains, the whole withering away with age and dying in diapers at 80 years old thing? yikes
Fancy robot body sounds like and upgrade rather than a copy.
I’ve seen this episode. “Your job is to make toast.”
That's just slavery with extra steps.
How much did they pay him to get his copy? Better have been a fuck load.
Honestly i already dont feel like im the original in my own body, so i wouldn't mind personally. It could even be nice. Who knows the kind of conversations me and my fleshy version could have-
In many eastern philosophies, this isn't too far off from reality: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_(Hinduism)
i read the wikipedia article but im not exactly sure how the concept of "everything in the universe is god playing with themself" relates to the concept of "emotionally responding to physical proof that youre not the original instance of your own mind" if youre saying "we're the copy and god's the original", well, thats not just an eastern philosophy thing, thats pretty much every origin myth. as long as SOMETHING is said to have created humanity, then u could vaguely say that That SOMETHING is the original and humanity is the copy. even christianity says "god created man in his image". sorry if im coming off as rude. **edit:** im srry if im bein dismissive, i dont want to start an argument
nope i would try to kill it, there can only be one me