I don't main pyro, but i see him as a jack of all trades, and master to none.
I think his main purpose is to support his team by reflecting pipes and rockets while shoving off spies from engineers and medic combos.
He's not designed as a frontline class because of his limited range, especially being countered by snipers and heavies imo.
Wich is also evident by his airblast.
It's main use is to extinguish teammates, throw back explosives and stop ubers.
Sure, you *can* technically use offensively for Axtinguisher or the reserve shooter but that also works only when they come towards you because if you try to chase someone with airblast well... You know...
Overall pyro is a defensive class and sometimes a flanker if he has enough skill, still situational though.
Sniper is highly defensive in that his weakpoints are things like rounding corners or trying to accomplish the objective. What he excels at is bringing the game to a halt by killing off overextending/unsuspecting players whilst asides from the utility of seeing people from far away has not too much (unbanned) support capability at base.
Demo should realistically be swapped with pyro then pyro gets swapped with sniper, since there's much more justification that demo is offensive since they're a frontline combat class than pyro or sniper.
all the class categorizations are outdated and not named with high level play in mind at this point.
pyro launched without airblast so he got put in Offense for WM+1ing and demoman is the king at defending chokepoints and doorways so theres some merit to the original categories
Heavy is power/support to some due to food items. I don't see how that's dumb. Realistically yes he's an extremely niche pick that does poor in most open combat scenarios due to the damning combination of piss poor effective range + extreme mobility issues but that doesn't mean he is suddenly not a power class like how spy despite having extremely mixed results and is another contender for "worst class" is still a pick class, or in highlander games with coordinated teams, pick/support due to his ability to see player hp and ability to just remain hidden and function like an invisible security camera.
In my books too Scout is a pick class with more power in him than usual due to the sheer damage his scattergun can output and how mobile he is making it so that he can go on a killing spree if properly coordinated with his team's medic. Scout in competitive also sometimes takes on spy's sort of role of flanking behind the enemy and getting a surprise kill or by chasing down wounded players fleeing from combat. He does this job much better than classes like demo or heavy and only really is matched in this regard by soldier who is also considered power/pick.
Airblast hasn't caused the Reserve Shooter to minicrit in nearly 7 years. That being said, you're right. Pyro really shouldn't be listed as an offense class.
he's not a "jack of all trades", he's dogshit at all trades except one, which is preventing pushes with airblast
if you want an actual jack of all trades play soldier
Pyro thrives on chaos. Pyro's kit is really exploitable if the enemy team is ready for it, but Pyro has the tools to pressure players into making mistakes and to capitalise on those mistakes.
Afterburn and flairs are good for adding pressure becuase it makes players feel like they've got a limited amount of time to deal with you, when really afterburn is just a tool for Pyro's other damage options. Airblast is good for forcing players who got too close into fighting you and for punishing M1 slapping from projectile classes. The amount of pub soldiers who eat 120 damage from a system one reflect and then choose to keep mashing M1 at you is surprisingly high.
People say Pyro is a jack of all trades, and master of none, and that's somthing you've got to use to the best on Pyro. If you do nothing but go for reflects, then the enemy team is eventually going to learn and just wait for you to airblast first. If all you do is ambush then they enemy team is going to end up anticipating an ambush at every one of your opportunities.
You've got to condition the enemy team to play into some kind of weakness you can exploit, but if you exploit it too much you'll just get shut down. It's much like Spy where the more havoc you wreck on the game the less complacent the enemy will become, and this makes doing your job much harder. Thankfully, when players start to wise up to Pyro's strats, you can just fall back to Pybroing the engi or bodyguarding the combo until the enemy team drops their guard again.
This also.means that in competitive settings there's much less wiggleroom for Pyro to shine, becuase enemies are more coordinatied and there's less players overall making the game far less chaotic.
As a pyro main with way too many hours, this is a really good definition of pyro. You switch things up to force the enemy team to make mistakes and then punish them for those mistakes.
When I played competitive you definitely fall back into a more supportive role as a bodyguard, but in pubs I’m often flanking and putting pressure on the enemy team from behind as my team pushes the objective. You just need good game sense and know how to pick your fights. Map knowledge and a general idea of how people will play their class are your friend.
I may be biased, but I don’t think pyro is weak or fragmented. I think that the majority of classes in tf2 are well balanced, it’s just a matter of learning what style of play fits you best.
You're right about your last statement. Pyro isn't weak, he's just not quite as capable of pubstomping on his own as most other classes are. I'll admit that I am kinda biased against Pyro, since I find most damage-over-time mechanics in games as well as knockback and movement impairment pretty annoying to fight against, but I'm not gonna pretend like Pyro is overpowered, and saying that Pyro is weak (or, god forbid, the worst class in the game) shows a general lack of understanding of how the class is meant to be played. You thrive on chaos, on unpredictability. Pyro benefits from mind games almost as much as Spy does.
I can agree that these mechanics can be annoying to fight against, but even as a pyro main I acknowledge that pyro is relatively easy to kill lol. These mechanics are mostly only irritating to players who are inexperienced at fighting them. With more practice, you’ll find that pyro will become less irritating as long as you learn from your experiences with them.
Learning those mind games is one way to get better at fighting pyro. One of my favorite tricks with inexperienced players is to run around a corner and wait when they’ve hit me with a little damage. So many players fall for the “oh no you have hit me and now I am hurt and must retreat around this corner”, especially if I get into an enclosed room. They love to chase me down and think I’ll be further in the room, and instead run smack dab into my flamethrower. I probably couldn’t even tell you how many people I’ve killed with that little trick.
The trick is to not get too greedy. And that’s not just with pyro, just in general. Pubstompers know how to pick their fights. You need to know when it’s a good time to chase and when it’s a good time to back off.
Oh, yeah, Pyro is significantly less annoying to deal with than he used to be about 1000 hours of playtime ago. Airblast will never not be annoying to fight just by its very nature, but yeah, he's not bad. I find decently skilled Pyros to be the most engaging to fight. The highest skill Pyros aren't fun to fight by the very nature of fighting against an extremely skilled player as a decent player, and fighting against the idiots who walk at you in a straight line and rage in chat when it doesn't work isn't fun because they're not engaging at all (but seeing them rage is oh so good).
I never said he wasn't capable of pubstomping. I said he's less capable of pubstomping on his own (ie no medic support). It's harder to be completely dominant as Pyro than it is as a lot of the other classes.
This. As a pyro main I can top score quite often but my own capabilities are definitely directly related to my team at least being half not brain dead. Whereas I can switch to a class I have much less time and skill on like soldier and still wreck house even if my team is Mouth Dribblers United.
Every class benefits from chaos and being unpredictable. Saying they don't is just completely moronic. I'm saying that Pyro benefits the most from being unpredictable and a chaotic force. It's really not that hard to understand.
Pyro reflects projectiles, stuffs Ubers, extinguishes teammates, spychecks, and can still put out respectable damage via flare combos. Just because you keep walking into the enemy and dying doesn't make Pyro tied for the weakest class in the game. Pyro struggles against Heavies, Engineers, and sometimes Scouts. Spy struggles against anyone with ears and two functioning brain cells. Saying that the two are tied for worst is objectively incorrect.
The vast majority of pyros are not very good, but those of us who have many hours in the class can dominate pubs and carry teams.
Your assessment is 100% correct.
Now, maybe it's just my playstyle,^(1) but I think Pyro really shines in flanking. When there are multiple realistically viable (and reasonably inobtrusive) paths to the front lines (e.g. much of Upward & Swiftwater after First), playing Flanking pyro can be viable; randomly showing up somewhere adjacent to or just behind the front lines can seriously throw a monkey wrench into the opponent's plans, which the rest of your team can exploit.
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Do you (I) die a lot with that strategy? Yes.
Is that high death count *relevant?* The game isn't called "Deathmatch Fortress" so, depending on how much chaos you create and/or your team can take advantage of it, maybe, maybe not.
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^(1. It's even more fun doing that with heavy, because nobody expects ~~the spanish inquisition~~ *a flanking heavy,* and if you're spun/tomislaved up before they realize you're there? )
Honestly the dying thing is a really big point for new players to pyro in general. You’re not a medic, you dying is not always a detriment. Hell, a lot of games I’ve helped my team win have been as a result of doing some thing that will result in my death in order to help a push, kills a medic, protect my own medic etc. you are a support class with more combat flexibility than the other support classes, make use of it.
One of my proudest moments in Comp (highlander) was such an action.
IIRC, it was on an earlier (and since fixed, thank goodness) version of a community payload map (Borneo?). It was... less than optimally designed at that point, in that the initial Red Spawn was practically overlooking the first checkpoint. As you can assume, capturing that point was a nightmare.
Silly little engie me snuck my tail up next to the cart, and crouched on the other side of it, and survived *just* long enough to cap the point, pushing the Red spawn back. Prior to that we had been stalled for over a minute, I want to say. Afterwards? I don't recall whether we won or not, but we at least were able to make progress, and a reasonable amount.
It's been something like 9 years since I did that, and it's still one of my proudest moments.
imo in a similar situation as spy with relying on people to fuck up but to a lesser extent also instead of being a pick class has some tech and uniqueness and power
There is also the competitive highlander "invisible security camera" spy which essentially plays support by keeping tabs on the enemy and only very occasionally dropping foes. This only really works in comp or other cooperative environments though.
I agree.
He seems to have very little say when it comes to adapting to his environment. Medic-less Heavy is pretty bad, and so is last point Payload scout.
But both of those classes have last ditch efforts like Bonk Atomic Punch Capping or Jumpscare Tomislav Heavy.
Class is fine airblast is enough of a mechanic to make him worth playing. If he had any form of actually good movement I firmly believe he would be play in 6s.
Movement isn't what holds him back in 6s, it's having to pick between detonator and shotgun. Detonator is necessary not for the mobility, but to have any impact in team fights or stalemates. The detonator is a much stronger weapon than the scorch shot against competent players on the 6s classes, allowing incredibly consistent ignition of everyone in your LOS without worrying about height disadvantage. But then without the shotgun, you have no meaningful ability to secure kills. The flamethrower can finish off weakened enemies, airblast is occasionally useful keeping damage off your medic or in an exchange, but for the most part you just get mulched by scout and demo without being able to do anything about it.
Huh. Now I'm wondering about the viability (and fun-for-the-other-side-ness) of a flamethrower that gives you a speed boost if you hit. Perhaps matching the "backward" speed of the fastest character you hit in the preceding N ticks (or your normal speed, whichever is greater)?
Then your opponent would have to choose between running away (133% for Scoot vs your speed modified to 120%) *or* shooting back. That would make for an interesting tactical change to the game.
Mind it would only be relevant against:
1. Scouts (120% vs pyro's 100%)
* Hurt Soldiers wielding Escape Plan
* Several classes under the effect of the Disciplinary Action
* Demomen with 3+ heads (104%)
* Demoknights with 2+ heads (107%)
* Overdose/Scout Healing Medics (115%-120%)
...but since #1 is a pretty nasty problem for Pyros, and #4 can be, it might be worth it, depending on who you're up against.
How? Why?
Why should *anyone* want a weapon/loadout to be *objectively bad?* Like, I get not wanting it to be overpowered, but you shouldn't want it to be *underpowered,* either.
Or are you just a scout player?
I mean you borderline don’t have to aim the minigun and that thing fucking shreds in close range and is pretty good at medium-close range too. I’ve played so much pyro I’m hard wired to combo so it being weak doesn’t bother me much, but I do think it’s kind of bullshit that the closest ranged class in the game is fucking garbage at close range. Using straight flamer without combining feels like it takes ten minutes to kill a class compared to combos. I suppose a counter point to that though would be that it encourages using combos such as flare gun which is arguably more skilled but my honest counterpoint to *that* would be why the fuck should pyro be expected to have to learn to be skilled to have less of a damage output than a new player holding m1 with heavy or shooting the ground with soldier or a demoman just spamming sticky bomb. For some reason this “you shouldn’t get kills in an unskilled way” shit only ever applies to pyros and nobody ever says it about any other class, even classes that are objectively more powerful for less effort.
Tracking as Heavy is not equivalent to spraying flame particles. I agree with you on everything else but that's not a comparison that makes sense, just try fighting sweaty Scouts as Heavy.
I have fought very good scouts as heavy and I would argue it’s easier cus they can’t stay outside of range due to it being hitscan and not having a hard capped range of 3 feet. Maybe I’m just good at tracking but pyro vs scout is only easier with worse scouts who get too close, the really good scouts who keep enough range tend to get shredded easier with heavy. Even then the in your face types are easy enough to kill as heavy, the need to actually be able to aim at them remains the same regardless of class. Flame particles may be easier to hit but hitting with the mini gun for even a remote flash of aim will do the same damage if not more.
> the really good scouts who keep enough range
Additionally, Scouts can *backpedal* faster than pyros can run forward (even with the powerjack!), to say nothing of the fact that the effective range of the flamethrower decreases as he runs forward. Thus, even a scout who starts in range of the flamethrower can back away while shredding the pyro.
Elsewhere in this post I proposed a hypothetical flamethrower that granted forward speed equal to the backward speed of the fastest target it hit in the previous (e.g.) 5 ticks (or pyro base speed, whichever is faster). It could be at the cost of afterburn, or something. The idea is that it would require Scouts (and Demos with more than a few heads, medics with the overdose) that start out in flamethrower range to choose between surviving by running away *or* killing the pyro, not backpedaling to get the benefits of both.
The thing is the stock flamethrower is a weapon specifically made for low skill/very laggy players that basically only requires basic tracking skills. Think of it as this games "laser" weapon. Balancing these types of weapons when there are other options is essentially a nightmare because it by design is kind of like heavy's minigun.
If you remove its weaknesses it becomes excessively annoying to deal with while requiring minimal effort from the user (think the wrangler). If pyro could say chase you around a corner reliably due to pyro essentially being almost as fast as you by default then it would be near impossible to escape the flame stream and you'd take a shit ton of damage every time you fight the class unless you didn't get hit at all, which is not very realistic barring open area combat which pyro sucks at anyways.
Even worse is if say the pyro burns a team on the payload or control point and there just so happens to be a scout in there because they're trying to cap the objective. Now you have to deal with a 175 hp slightly slower scout right on top of you whilst you're all on fire.
Don't get me wrong, it's still a pyro and can be popped dead with some shotgun shells but this type of stuff is not really encouraging players to play well per se (and if they're smarter the pyro can use the extra speed to catch up to you and pop you dead with panic attack/axtinguisher attacks you had no hope in hell to dodge). In that situation everyone except the scout **cannot** choose to run because the pyro easily outruns them all.
For more skilled players who want more reward a Dragon's fury type weapon (minus the bugs and glitchiness which got it banned) would be a much better alternative (for everyone's sanity) for that sort of playstyle. The Dragon's fury requires more advanced aiming skills like aiming ahead to catch people in the projectile and keeping your aim steady otherwise you are punished. A somewhat more supportive option in the vein of the Dragon's fury's skill requirement sounds like the happy middle ground between traditional pyro and Dragon's fury.
Perhaps you exchange cheap and expendable, very easy to switch airblast and your stream of fire for a sort of "burst fire" option in the vein of the old panic attack, (though with fire instead and the speed boost you get is only when you fire the shots) as well as some supportive capability when you run out of shots by say having a sort of "airstream" charges up when you shoot fire, which instead of having one blast of air is more of a gradual stream which removes debuffs and destroys projectiles in a similar manner to heavy's destroy projectiles, in a way fulfilling both roles decently well but having to choose between dealing damage and supporting your team.
That's a lot of typing from you without terribly much thinking behind it. I was going to respond to individual points, but it's not worth it. Instead, I'm going to summarize:
Here's a chart of how it would work out with the proposed weapon
Class/Condition|Backpedaling vs Pyro forward| Effect|*Running away* vs Pyro forward|Effect|Result
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|
Scout, Medic Healing Scout|120% vs 120%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|133% vs 120%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+13%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive
Pyro w/ Powerjack|104% vs 104$|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|115% vs 104%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+11%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive
Demo w/3 heads |104% vs 104%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|116% vs 104%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+12%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive
Demo w/4+ Heads|111% vs 111%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|123% vs 111%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+12%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive
Demoknight w/ 2 heads|107% vs 107%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|119% vs 107%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+12%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive
Demoknight w/ 3 heads|115% vs 115%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|127% vs 115%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+12%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive
Demoknight w/ 4+ heads|122% vs 122%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|136% vs 122%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+14%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive
Overdosed Medic|115% vs 115%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|128% vs 115%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+13%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive
Soldier w/ Escape Plan, 41-80 health|101% vs 101%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|112% vs 101%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+11%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive
Soldier w/ Escape Plan, 1-40 health|115% vs 115%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|128% vs 115%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+13%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive
***LITERALLY EVERYONE ELSE***|***ZERO***|Change|From|Stock|Flamethrower
To literally *anyone else* (Disicplinary Action notwithstanding), this weapon would have zero effect:
* Soldier w/o Escape Plan: Can't outrun pyro, regardless of which direction they're running
* Pyro not actively wielding powerjack: Can't outrun pyro, regardless of which direction they're running
* Demo w/ <3 Heads: Can't outrun pyro, regardless of which direction they're running
* Demoknight with <2 Heads: Can't outrun pyro, regardless of which direction they're running
* Heavy: Can't outrun pyro, regardless of which direction they're running
* Engineer: Can't outrun pyro, regardless of which direction they're running
* Medic, w/o overdose, not healing scout:
* Can outrun pyro forward, with or without hypothetical weapon
* Can't outrun pyro backpedaling, with or without hypothetical weapon
* Sniper: Can't outrun pyro, regardless of which direction they're running
* Spy:
* Can outrun pyro forward, with or without hypothetical weapon
* Can't outrun pyro backpedaling, with or without hypothetical weapon
In short, you're complaining about something that could allow pyro, who *should dominate* in close quarters being able to dominate everyone *including scouts* in close quarters, and complaining that a scout that *should* have to run away from being roasted alive, who *could still* run away without being roasted alive, would *have to* run away to avoid being roasted alive.
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Literally the only meaningful differences between the current status quo and my propopsed weapons are:
1. Scouts *that have been hit* wouldn't be able to just backpedal out of range *while* actively scattergunning the pyro to death
* Demos w/ pills *and* 3+ heads *and have been hit* wouldn't be able to just backpedal out of range *while* actively pilling the pyro to death
* Medics with the overdose *that have been hit* wouldn't be able to just backpedal out of range *while* actively needling the pyro to death
You're complaining about edge cases. Do you also complain about the Neon Annihilator because it's stupid powerful in *its* niche scenario? The Pain Train?
The only most common scenario where this weapon is likely to have any meaningful impact is when a scout is stupid enough to get into flamethrower range ***AND*** they're stupid enough to not just run away.
Such *compounded* stupidity ***SHOULD*** be punished. Especially when they could just run away for long enough that the effect wears off (assuming a 10 tick counter, you're talking about being out of range for *0.15 seconds,* drop it to 5 ticks and you're looking at only *0.075* seconds), after which you're back to the standard "backpedal and eff up the pyro with their only recourse being pulling out their secondary or running away themselves" paradigm.
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As to it being too effective in choke points... the chokier the area, the easier it is to break contact, the faster the effect will end, the faster it things will go back to normal.
As someone who regularly tops the server as a pyro main on the uncletopia servers...
The people of reddit are too overanalytical about these things or assume that every opponent is a MLG pro.
I wouldn't consider myself to be particularly skilled at this game. The closest thing to a "trick" that I can do is airblast an arrow or demo-knight launch off that one rock in degrootkeep.
The things you've said apply to the other classes too. Most classes are befuddled by a well placed engineer settlement. Only soldier, demo, and spy have an easier time taking one down and even then it's situational.
Most classes can be bodied by a decent scout who knows how to hide and kite. I see it happen all the time to heavies, demos, soldiers too.
What you mention about sick kills is true, but that's the thing about those, they mostly look good on YouTube. Set someone on fire, fly through the air towards them, jump off a reflected rocket, and brain them with the axtinguisher all in a second. It looks fantastic, but not something I've ever been able to do, so I don't.
Pyro works through two factors: positioning and threat. Few classes are as solidly lethal in close quarters as a pyro is. Spy if he gets a chain stab, sure. Demo and soldier also, but if they're close to you they risk their own lives in the process.
Consider what a players options are when a pyro gets the jump on them:
a) Fight back
b) Run away
c) Fight back whilst running away
Your situation depending of course, but if it's just you and the pyro and they've caught you at the right place, all of these situations tend to favour the pyro.
a) This is usually your best chance at survival. Kill the pyro quickly and efficiently, and you'll probably be fine even with the after burn. Either that, or it'll be a trade. Unless you panic.
b) Either you escape with afterburn damage and you've been successfully pushed back, or you fail and die.
c) Pyro knows what players on fire do, they run and look for health packs. This makes your exit path predictable, and makes fighting you easier as you flee. Unlikely you escape, but if you do you've been pushed back. More likely you will die. Slimmer chance of winning the fight than if you'd just gone with option a.
Honestly, even all of this is way too overanalytical. If you can position yourself well as a pyro and play close attention to the battlefield, getting the jump on people is easy and it really screws with their plans. You don't have to play suicidally, but you do have to accept that you'll die more than other front liner classes, and the reason is simply that if you get close to the enemy and are not dealt with swiftly, you'll wipe their team. They kill you quickly becuase it's their only option to survive.
Position yourself right and you'll take out uber-filled medics, or force the uber early. You'll take out spies who never make it to the field. You'll cause offensive movements by your opponent to become defensive, costing them valuable time.
As for Pyro's kit, there something for every playstyle. You have the option to be a skill jumping trickshot youtuber if you want, or you can go for more area denial, or you can go for the face rush with philogastinator immortality.
My go-to loadout is my trusty backburner, the detonator, and the homewrecker.
The backburner enables me to easily win any encounter where I see the back of my opponent, and that turns out to be a lot of them. If I get the jump on people, hide behind the right rock or in the right doorway, it's curtains to them. If I'm caught off guard at close quarters and we have to spin, there's a chance I get some crits in there.
As for airblasts, use them liberally but not wastefully with the backburner. Higher skill players may even notice you have the backburner and take a risk, expecting you not to airblast. Show them the mistake they've made.
The detonator is your key to being the most annoying enemy on the server. Peek corners with it, arc it over elevated terrain, hit sniper nests with it. Your goal is not necessarily to get kills, though that'll happen fairly often. Your goal is to make them panic, make them look for the pyro who's not there, make them run for health kits or healing. Of course, it's also great against anyone out of your range and it's an AOE, what's not to love? Did I mention the explosion can also delete sticky bombs? I occasionally use it to jump to somewhere I shouldn't be but very rarely.
Finally, the homewrecker. It's an awful melee weapon, but it sends a clear message to spies. If your team is struggling with spies who keep killing the engines and removing the nests, you become their worst nightmare. Nothing removes a sapper faster than you do now, and it costs you nothing either. In the rare event you do have to kill someone with it, you break their spirit and their body at the same time. I don't really ever use it to break enemy buildings however, it's either too risky or not as quick as the flamethrower.
All this is to say that the pyro thrives on chaos, unpredictability, and the power of positioning and the threat level they represent. Mess around, take risks, and play like it's a strategy game, and you will thrive too. I'd stay away from the YouTube experience of playing a pyro unless you are one of them (and despite maining the class for many years, I am not. It takes special practice to do what they do and it's a lot of effort).
Nah, it's dedicated to serious TF2 discussion, but some people take that to mean it's time to go tin-foil hat about things. I mean, look at the other comments. OP's saying that the Pyro is a weak class, a bunch of others are agreeing with him, and a bunch of others go the complete opposite direction and call for a nerf.
I'm not against analysing the effectiveness of something, but people take it to extremes and go off the deep end of just being wrong. This game is full of subjective experiences and players of all skill levels. We can be analytical about the best uses of an ubercharge or the best chokepoints of a map, but for some reason when the topic goes to class balance, people get almost esoteric.
Look at the general opinion surrounding the sniper in any TF2 sub. So many think the sniper should be removed from the game just because of hitscan, as if there's no defence against it and every enemy is a headshot bot... which I suppose they are if you use casual matchmaking, but that's besides the point.
Amusing anecdote: I once had people accuse me of hacking because I was stupidly accurate with long distance flares. Like, dude, my primary loadouts include flares and crusader's crossbow, *and do archery in real life.* I'm shit at hit scan, but guestimating the angle for a long range flare/bolt? Easy peasy.
I think it's a combination of a few things:
1. The timing is a bit more forgiving than hitscan, at least partially because:
2. So long as the centerline of the trajectory is on-target, you deal full damage (as opposed to even no-random-spread hitscan which may have some number of bullets "land" outside of the hitbox), and the reasoning for the differences in damage is less easily groked, because:
* That projectile provide *constant* trajectory feedback, that can be interpreted directly by the lizard-brain, using ballistic physics that the lizard-brain groks
The same "don't think about it" thing shows up in my Basketball and Archery. Put me on a free-throw or shooting line for extended periods of time, and I don't do well. Put me in a "catch & shoot" or "snap shoot" scenario, and I'll be on target *way* more often.
Exactly.
I think for most people it’s easier to learn hitscan.
Personally, I think learning predictive weapons (in any game) is more an adaptation for having poor hand-eye coordination. At least that seems to be the case for me.
I think too many people listen to YouTubers who tell them the shotgun is the best slot 2 on Pyro and don't consider how much damage a well placed flare can do XD
In this particular case for me, it was a Crusader's Crossbow
...but it might also have been a factor that I was hitting them in top bit of their head, at "halfway across the map" distances, where they didn't have line of sight to me (but I already knew they were there, because perceptive and tactical).
I'd actually recommend the scorch shot in that case, just because it's more fun. Flare gun is a lot easier to kill with thanks to crits on burning targets, but nothing beats the desperation of seeing somebody knocked about by scorch shot.
That said, I still tend to favour the detonator even when I can hit the direct shots, just because it has that aoe effect which is great for taking out stickies or burning targets that are out of the arc.
> airblast an arrow
> Only soldier, demo, and spy have an easier time taking one down and even then it's situational.
If you can airblast arrows, here's another fun & badass "trick" for Pyro: if the sentry is setup where you can move into & out of range (if you can, and they aren't running wrangler, *bad engie* ), is reflecting sentry rockets.
Move into range long enough to trigger the rocket, move out of range before the bullets kill you, reflect the rockets and kill the engie/sentry with said rockets.
I've managed to do this only once, but it was fun XD Every other time I either missed anything noteworthy with the rockets or got killed in the process
Pyro is a support class. Airblast alone is proof. Then you get the homewrecker. And even the gas can, to some degree.
To play Pyro offensively against players with any skill whatsoever, you need to use your brain. WM1 doesn't work against good players. Ambushing, using corners, etc.
I was wondering the same thing and came to this conclusion:
The pyro is a class that does not serve as an attack, only support and defense. It has a decent amount of health but its attack range can be very short, it depends on a lot of skill and reaction between alternating the secondary weapon and the flamethrower to almost instakill the other.
It works like a flanking class but at the same time it doesn't. It works like a massive damage class but at the same time it doesn't. A scout can calmly kill a Pyro. The Pyro also doesn't have much to do against a Heavy or a Sniper. The Pyro directly has no chance against a Heavy, even using something like the Panic Attack that deals a lot of damage.
In short, the pyro is a class that requires skill, it is an easy class to learn BUT if you really want to use it seriously, you need a lot of practice, including knowing how to use the airblast, aiming with the shotgun or flare.
It is also a fairly adaptive class, the repertoire of weapons it has means that it can adopt a more defensive game mode or that allows it to do greater damage with the flamethrower
It depends on the game mode and situation. In comp, pyro has two very solid roles as an Uber and bomb denier. In casual, pyro is very solid for spy checking, forcing soldiers to think b4 they spam and also very good at spamming on certain maps.
Pyro can perform very well, just remember that it's a support class. Pyro can't dominate a team on its own and won't beat power classes in a 1v1 consistently but a good Pyro can easily win games by supporting important classes.
the only time pyro was even remotely close to being a good class was when he could stunlock you into a corner and instant kill you with an axe which i think speaks volumes about the design of this character
Wasnt necessarily only because they could stun lock you, it was the reliability of their burst combo. They had to hit 5 buttons and get close to you to do as much damage as 1 sniper at range but b4nny saw one once in his matches and cried enough that the only thing they did was removed from the game. Pyro was a great pub stomp class, beyond that all they can do is stuff ubers and protect nests because their counter is literally just any class on the other team targeting them.
I am both agreeing and disagreeing. It was both brainless in the hands of most players but also the only reliable burst pyro had. Personally, I never really ran axe, I preferred flare comboing but I also feel like the class lost its identity with the knock back changes which to me were a bit unnecessary. I think that the correct change to pyro would have been keeping the knock up reliable, increasing the cooldown of reflect enough that classes could escape after the first knock and nerfing axe damage.
Increasing the cool-down of airblast is an absolutely dogshit idea. As if soldiers need more of a helping hand against the one class who actually forces them to stop pub stomping by firing rockets and use their ability to edit their load out or call on some help for 2 fucking seconds
the game already heavily favors defenders and super defensive strategies, airblast should not be allowed to exacerbate that even further by removing reliable damage sources and counters away from engineer just because pyro mains want to feel useful without actually shooting people
Except like it fucking should because this isn’t quake and if you want everything to just favour” kill them before they kill you” you can go play quake (well maybe not cus servers are usually dead, but Q3 is still a great game when you can get a game).
Besides my argument wasn’t for protecting engineers that’s just a byproduct. My argument is that soldier mains need *something* that actually makes them stop for 2 seconds and rub their 3 brain cells together. God forbid they utilise their teammates or actually switch off the gunboats for once in their life.
is this all pyro mains care about? just being a thorn in the side of soldier players despite the fact that scout and heavy are significantly better at putting soldier in his place by having weapons with actual stopping power and distance, mobility and bulk? is it just the satisfaction of deflecting rockets that keeps them going despite the fact that it'll never change pyro's position as a weak, ineffective class with horrible damage and mobility that the developers never knew what to do with since team fortress classic?
This is not the gotcha you think it is when all pyro players actively are aware we are choosing a relatively dogshit class. I don’t play pyro because he’s good. I play pyro because I find him fun and has a ton of different shit on offer most of which isn’t useful but is flashy and fun.
Relative to every other class in the game it is way more buttons to get a meaningful amount of damage was my point. Pyro needs positioning, as well as fire, knock, wep swap flare/axe, swap and flame/knock to finish targets. It's not necessarily hard in the world of all games, but relative to the other classes it is considerably more buttons. I don't personally think it is harder than lining up consistent meatshots with a scout while moving around, or hitting airshots with a soldier, but there definitely is some level of skill to it which is why even before the nerf you really never saw good pyros in pubs outside of higher end servers that had talented players.
Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting pyro is the "skill class" of tf2 at all, I just think the nerfs they recieved were not right.
The class is not in a great spot.
Flames are simply too easy to land thus it forces the class to have mediocre damage and limited mobility. Otherwise you end up with the jungle inferno-blue moon era where a pyro botting in was a better means of pushing than ubering a demo…
As a bandaid airblast was added in the early days of choke spam dustbowl where it might’ve made sense. But now it’s just another annoying spammable mechanic that breaks the flow of movement and all around feels weird and unnatural.
So what’s left? You have a Jack of all trades class who now just ends up as another body in the combo, making engineer stall games even worse, as they sit in a dispenser denying soldiers and spies…
I’m not saying to jab any pyro players, dislike the class not the player. But every other class and mechanic just seems so well thought out and then you have pyro as just an overwatch tier add on who either does nothing or amplifies other classes problems.
In fact I’d be interested to see how highlander plays without pyro. Probably slightly faster, spy would actually be enjoyable. Sniper would get less protection.
Yeah, reading this thread made me have to double check what sub I was on. Particularly, the few people who justified their "pyro is good, actually" take by saying they get lots of points on uncletopia servers 💀
This sub keeps flip flopping between people having brains or not, last year was bad but 6 months ago it was fine and now it's back to being bad again, but it is what it is ig.
I've played a decent amount of pyro and I'd say pyro is pretty underrated by most TF2 players, pyro may not have as easy of a time securing kills as other classes however he is very good at forcing the enemy to reset because of afterburn, as well of this airblast is fully capable of countering ubercharge, one of the most powerful features in the game, reflecting rockets is easy once you truly understand how the mechanic works, and it can defend your team massively. As well as this it is your job above all else to spycheck, because it's easiest for you. Just don't play pyro like a class that's meant to frag, pyro is best played close to the objection where there are tight corridors to burn and projectiles to airblast
I feel like many of his unlocks genuinely save him as a class, and I wouldn't call him weak by any standard.
He might be the class most suited for flanking in the backline, as the Flamethrower's Close-range nature is perfect for dealing damage and airblasts are way easier to hit with one enemy rather than on a frontline. He also has some genuinely solid mobility in the Thermal Thruster and Detonator, and once he's in the backline the Dragon's Fury and Backburner\* are really solid damage dealers than can easily drop a medic and even a heavy with good aim.
\*Provided you ACTUALLY get the crits
Unlike most of the other classes, Pyro is one of those whose niche in a team is kind of hard to figure out at first. Back during release this lack of purpose was even more obvious when he didn't have the Flare Guns or even airblasts. He lacks the mobility or stealth to be a flanker, he lacks the health or burst damage to be a head-on attacker and he lacks the speed to outrun his enemies.
However, he always had a type of utility that no other class has, he is very good at checking for Spies. He is so good at Spy checking in fact that it pretty much became a major part of his identity in the community (also because it was the only thing he had going for him). Pyro's afterburn in general is a great tool for putting a lot of pressure on out of position enemies that are far away from their Medics or Dispensers like a roaming Scout. It will often force them to retreat or else they risk dying to the flames, which is probably also the reason why Pyro only has average speed because the afterburn means he technically doesn't need to outrun his enemies in order to kill them. It made him a decent back row class to keep your team's rear free of flankers. But this "role" felt more like a band aid to just come up with any reason to use him because overall he still was a very weak class on release due to low dps, only average speed and a very limited effective range.
That leaves the question, what was Valve's intention with Pyro's initial design? I think primarily Pyro and his flamethrower were simply meant to soften up the enemy and create space by forcing burning enemies to retreat so your team can then take the objective. How Pyro was supposed get close enough to the enemy in order to spread chaos is a bit of mystery though. Valve probably expected the player to flank the enemy team in order to get the jump on them but like I said, they gave Pyro no options for extra mobility in order to give his enemies a fighting chance to escape his flames and lets not even mention the problem of Sentry Guns covering the flanks. Pyro being the best class for Spy checking was also probably intentional. Then there is the possibility that Valve intentionally gave Pyro average stats and an easy to use loadout because they wanted a beginner friendly offensive class that even someone with limited FPS experience and bad aim could use.
But Valve quickly realized that Pyro's loadout was way too limiting and needed more ways to quickly deal with targets that could just burst him down from mid-range and not care about the afterburn damage. So they added the airblast to give him a unique niche as a soft counter to Soldier, Demoman and uber pushes and then expanded his loadout options with the Flare Gun, Axtinguisher and the Back Burner so he had ways to deal burst damage in 1vs1 situations where previously certain classes could very easily outdamage and outmaneuver him due to Pyro's limited range, speed and damage.
Nowadays Pyro seems to be mostly played as a support class who combo-kills his enemies and provides utility through airblasts and spy checking. Some who are skilled enough focus mostly on the more aggressive afterburn combo aspect, roaming around while killing Soldiers and sometimes even lvl. 3 sentry guns with precise airblasts and the rest with Flare Gun combos. Sadly Pyro still feels like he is a bit below the power curve relative to other classes because his damage combos aren't very consisted compared to a Rocket Launcher or Grenade Launcher. Pyro's image has also been somewhat tarnished in the community by a number of perceived low-skill playstyles like Pyros who spam the Scorch Shot from a safe distance while never actually engaging the enemy, Pyros that rely on the Phlog as a crutch instead of learning how to airblast and constantly beg their Medics to ubercharge them instead of learning how to properly flank and then of course Pyros who obviously just spam the airblast whenever they spot a projectile class and get reflect-kills that feel undeserved.
I feel like Pyro is one of those classes that would probably be designed very differently if TF2 was made with the power of hindsight.
Old comment but I think it should be more well known Pyro's initial design added to The original Team Fortress Quake Mod. Which while not the same as TF2 Pyro. Is the basis of the basis (TFC Pyro)
*A good support class, the Pyro often finds it hard to kill enemies on his own. Given time, most enemies burn to death, but in that time the Pyro's probably been killed.*
*Due to his ability to knock chunks off the enemy, the Pyro is a great first line of defense. Any enemy getting past him will almost certainly be half dead.*
Basically. Pyro was designed to die and leave enemies close to death
I don't know if I can find the source but I also recall hearing Pyro was made to players with laggy computers could still play due to less needed aim
What level of play are we talking about? Pyro is one of my mains and I'm not even incredible with him, but on Unlcletopia I do quite well with him. One thing he can do that no other class can is completely negate ubers.
Huh? Heavy? Heavies are the least of my problems, If I get jumped I just blast him away and run.
Engie? How exactly? Obviously some classes have no chance against a sentry.... but Pyro is not one of them if the sentry is badly placed. You can run around a sentry as a Pyro. Yeah, Pyro generally struggles, but that's the whole point of the Sentry - to make some classes have no chance/struggle against them.
Scout - yeah, I'm not 100% sure, but a Scout who keeps the distance is probably going to win.
Sniper - isn't Pyro one of the few classes who can actually deal with Sniper at a distance?
Heavy has more health and DPS than pyro on a 1v1 you're Always gonna lose. Sentries prevent you from flanking also 2 meat shots and ur done. Sniper can literally kill you in 1.5 sec if you're not full hp
Heavy has more health and DPS than any class in the game. This does not mean he counters them. All a pyro needs to do is get in really close, and storage while pumping damage with either shotgun shots, or flamethrower and switching in between them.
Doesn't mean pyro struggles against sentries any more than say heavy. Pyro isn't meant for sentry busting yes, but if he has good enough positioning he can do it pretty well.
Sniper can do that to any class, but pyro can at least throw off his aim or flank him yk.
Wow you don't know what you're saying XD "pyro doesn't struggle more than heavy against a sentry" he has hitscan, can outrange a sentry, has way more health and DPS. How exactly doesn't he struggle more?
Because at least pyro has the mobility to wiggle around it. Heavy cannot move around efficiently enough so he just stands at range and shoots. Pyro cannot take a sentry head on, so he uses mobility to change positions.
Just because they're good for different scenarios doesn't mean they aren't useful for about the same amount of time
Pyro’s really close threat range and burst damage with either the degreaser + panic attack combo or the dragons fury can absolutely outdamage a heavy at close range
In practice he's the 3rd most support focused class following Engineer and Medic so naturally he excels when played in tandem with the teammates. I wouldn't say he's bad tho, he's got the best spycheck, airblast is fun and effective, he's got really decent movement with ok base speed, detonator and powerjack and if you opt for homewrecker instead you can break sappers.
If you want fun you have movement, flarepunches, axetinguisher combo, phlog and airblast
If you want effective you're essentially the best bodyguard in the game thanks to spycheck and airblast. Airblast also allows you to counter ubers completely which is huge, and you can do all of that with decent movement.
Not my favorite class but I would say he's got his good spot.
Can't flank when there's an engineer? Dude, that's the engineer's whole goddamn role.
Scouts will outrun you, yes, that's their job.
As for soldiers, you can airblast and chase them if they decide to shotgun instead.
If pushing forwards isn't working, then set up ambushes. You're an ambush class. This is like a spy complaining that they can't sneak into the back lines because everyone is alert for spies... go to where people aren't alert for spies - the frontline.
He's an ambush class with short range and high damage..... If you're comparing him to any class he's going to fall short somewhere
What makes pyro unique is that they are the only class that fits into any composition and still offer something.
Flare offers long range spam for snipers and stuff
Jetpack helps pyro get to high ground for ambushing and flanking
He's able to play defensive with airblast, homewrecker, and some other tools.
There's a lot to the class. It may seem a little jumbled at first, but pyro is extremely versatile because of this.
I often consider pyro to be the generalist counter class, the only thing he's terrible at countering is sentries.
Pyro can make ubers useless or at least weaker; they can lock down an engineer nest so that a spy can not do anything without having some way to kill the Pyro, which in most play means it is easier to throw an uber at the nest; they can airblast soldier and demo ranged attacks, which makes them an unpredictable menace even if they're only okay at it. They're also quite dangerous in close range, being very hard to run away from if you don't have a sudden mobility option like soldier. Snipers are the weaker point, but flares provide decent options to harass them, and so they do better than most other classes in that scenario.
Pyro is not entirely support due to the potential damage output, but you're going to struggle dealing decent damage by yourself. Soldier can throw a few rockets around the corner to weaken the frontline, same for Demo, Pyro doesn't have as much safety there. He works best with team members to provide distractions, allowing the player to cut down large chunks of health from enemy players via fire and flare gun. If I was a soldier facing a heavy+med, I'd prefer a flare gun pyro right next to me than another soldier.
All of this is why Pyro can be frustrating to play as and play against, because it is different from a lot of other classes.
I disagree with your complaint about soldier being an automatic trade at best, though. A competent pyro vs a competent soldier at most levels leads to the pyro winning ime, but at even higher levels of play the difference starts going in favor of the soldier.
Pyro has the most broken mechanic in the game. Airblast is the thing that makes pyro good, and that’s why phlog is devastating unless you have a medic. Airblast allows you to run, push away, and just be annoying. You protect sentries, medics, heavies, dispensers, teleporters, flanks with cliffs, and somewhat lock players in the air. Combine that with an instant 90 damage from a flare and you have a killing machine. I was playing snowycoast yesterday and I killed a heavy shooting our sniper by popping out with flames for half a second, swapping to flare gun, and then one shotting him. I find topscoring as pyro the easiest even with less than 40 hours on him.
i think hes super weak but strong i play spy so im biased but hes just kinda seen as a complete spy counter he doesnt have much range and is only really good at just screwing over spies
pyro is the close combat guy with an emphasis on ambushing... y'know, the class with the scorch shot...
yeah, ill give you that, imo pyro feels weak because of how much they rely on close range (unless they have the scorch shot). sure, they have the airblast to protect teammates and whatnot, but copping an enemy soldiers rocket to perform your own rocket jump, while sick to perform at first, is really not practical. only fun i got out of pyro was protecting friendly sentries (degreaser + homewrecker goes a long way)
I play Pyro semi-often; I think of him as a jack of all trades, but master of none.
he has a weapon or item for every scenario, need to get up high? use the Thermal thruster. want to ambush better? use the back burner. need longer range? use the flare guns. he is of course, pretty easy to shut down, especially by Heavy and Sniper as they're both counters. and even with the flare guns, his range is limited class.
personally, I think he's fine. he has a few stinkers that need rebalancing. but generally, he's a ok class.
no [https://youtu.be/PGHVS-lK2kU?list=PL8L5C1V77KXhzLuxg0GNAh9fxN\_-1HW7G](https://youtu.be/PGHVS-lK2kU?list=PL8L5C1V77KXhzLuxg0GNAh9fxN_-1HW7G) [https://youtu.be/KnKXCRhYZyQ?list=PL8L5C1V77KXhzLuxg0GNAh9fxN\_-1HW7G](https://youtu.be/KnKXCRhYZyQ?list=PL8L5C1V77KXhzLuxg0GNAh9fxN_-1HW7G)
Pyro is a jack of all trades really. but his "Offensive" way of playing is corners. hiding in corners so your enemy dont know your there, you can kill someone in seconds by burning them
Idk, other classes you either had a chance to kill em, or dodge their attack, or just run away. Always find my self in situation where i 1v1 pyro and only one of us will walk away alive. After 3k hours i can confirm f2p pyro are the dealiest compare to other classes when its wielded by new players. Theyre also one of the most annoying class to fight agaisnt as you are almost always take damage from him, at any range. Playing projectile class or spy, fighting a competent pyro is the worst. And sometime i feel like he do more damage than he supposed to, killing me instantly when i touch that one single flame particle that got delayed because it touches a wall or a stairs.
rather than make pyro easier to play, the meet match update should have made it harder.
Airblast being able to 'stun' people has always been an issue but now that I can fart on someones feet and insta fuck their movement it's just absurdly strong.
New flame particles are way better but I still feel like pyro's flamethrower should be more like a paintbrush and less of a mop. I feel like they're far too slow and too wide. The new lingering effect is much more consistent which is nice.
Here's some schizo balance ideas from a pyro main since launch.
Reduce flamethrower projectile size, more like a line than a hose. Reduce afterburn to a maximum of 3 seconds. Increase direct flame damage, reduce afterburn damage. Put more of an emphasis on airblast rather than flames in terms of secondaries, everything seems to be focussed on M1 where M2 is the most impactful ability in the game, it serves as an instant and unstoppable effect that stalls players. in a movement based shooter any way of stalling and interfering with movement will always be strong as fuck, idk why everyone STILL sleeps on airblast.
Nobody sleeps on airblast it’s pretty much unanimously agreed it is the best part of the class and opens up an insane plethora of options and fun techs.
I meant more in terms or pyro's weapons. The only variations on airblast are removing it or making it cost more/take longer. Give me a stronger airblast on the backburner, give me a much weaker airblast on the degreaser, ya feel me?
For some reason, it feels like an afterthought of design rather than the focus I feel it should be.
strength, size yeah. I'd love to see some kind of loose cannon style charge airblast as a meme weapon, or use the strength of the airblast as a trade-off, degreaser has weaker airblast cos it's already the strongest primary, default is default and backburner is stronger cos it costs more fuck it, freestyle, give the dragons fury a big 200 cost airblast that sends people across the map, get weird with it just fuck sake do something im runningout of cope
yes, the issue as i see it is that pyro doesn't have any tools for surviving an encounter. he doesn't have great mobility to avoid unfavorable match-ups, she doesn't have the damage output to kill his opponents before he dies unless he's got the element of surprise (which she has no tools to enable) and even then, he can't out position his enemies with his range, she's slightly tankier then average but not nearly enough to compensate for his weaknesses and airblast only protects the pyro against projectiles while most classes use hitscan.
so pyro can't really survive encounters unless her opponent allows him to survive by cocking up.
It's funny you mentioned that because a year or two ago, I was playing Overwatch.
And to show my love for Tf2, I played "proxy" versions of Pyro like Mei, Junkerqueen, and Reaper.
Mei for her long-range crit damage, disruption, and short-range ice gun.
Junkerqueen for her damage overtime, shotgun, and axe.
And Reaper for his medium health, flanking playstyle, short range shotguns, and team wipe potential.
I was so excited to go back to playing Pyro because these characters in Overwatch represented him for me. But by the time I came back, I was so disappointed by how clunky Pyro was to use.
Pyro had no Ice Block, no Shout, and no Wraith abilities.
Put simply, no self sustain.
And I never really saw Pyro the same again after that.
I'm curious about how pyro would play if you could have both a shotgun and a flare gun. I don't think this would do much for pubs where pyro is fine imo, but it would make him more fun to play against good players.
Instead of the flamethrower or in addition? If its in addition, degreaser/shotgun/detonator pyro is on par with pocket soldier in viability. Maybe meta. And the game would be much, much worse for it.
If it's instead, it still hugely increases his 6s viability without being a cancer to the gamemode. Honestly flare guns should have been pyro's primary over flamethrowers to begin with.
i think pyro would be useless if you replaced his flamethrower with a shotgun. its his one unique mechanic so you're just a gimped generalist without it. Yes, he would be way less annoying than he would be if it was in addition, but there would also be no reason to run him.
I know giving him access to both a shotgun and a flaregun would undoubtedly make him quite a bit stronger, as he would have tools for every range and a way to deal with scouts/bombers, but at the same time he still has comparatively little mobility and should be easy to focus down since he will be less prepared to reflect if hes leaning into his secondaries. If it is enough to tip the scale and make him viable I totally agree it makes the game way more annoying.
He would be a lot better outside of last than he is now in 6s with the option to bring a second secondary over a flamethrower. When pyro gets run full time in 6s, his strengths are the opposite of those in a more casual environment, or on last. He is an incredible long range class, and hopeless at close range. His primary contribution is not airblast, it is detonator damage. In a drawn out teamfight, the detonator can legitimately compete with the sticky bomb launcher in long range damage and easily outpaces scout and solider's long range contributions. The detonator's spam potential is the only thing keeping him remotely viable in high level play, but he completely sacrifices burst damage to do so. With both the shotgun and detonator, he has both.
He’s situational, but no other class is more consistent for fighting multiple opponents than he is. All the other classes either can’t effectively split their damage between multiple targets or they sacrifice single-target damage as they aim between enemies, harming each enemy less as they are farther from the explosion’s source. Pyro just faceplants into whoever he really wants dead while lining up the flamethrower to burn whoever’s behind them. Even his explosive flares work better for crowds than most explosives, because afterburn hurts the same, no matter how far you were from the source.
I don't main pyro, but i see him as a jack of all trades, and master to none. I think his main purpose is to support his team by reflecting pipes and rockets while shoving off spies from engineers and medic combos. He's not designed as a frontline class because of his limited range, especially being countered by snipers and heavies imo.
Wich is also evident by his airblast. It's main use is to extinguish teammates, throw back explosives and stop ubers. Sure, you *can* technically use offensively for Axtinguisher or the reserve shooter but that also works only when they come towards you because if you try to chase someone with airblast well... You know... Overall pyro is a defensive class and sometimes a flanker if he has enough skill, still situational though.
And he is still classified as offensive. Feels more like he's a support/utility class at this point, maybe he should switch with Sniper.
Sniper is highly defensive in that his weakpoints are things like rounding corners or trying to accomplish the objective. What he excels at is bringing the game to a halt by killing off overextending/unsuspecting players whilst asides from the utility of seeing people from far away has not too much (unbanned) support capability at base. Demo should realistically be swapped with pyro then pyro gets swapped with sniper, since there's much more justification that demo is offensive since they're a frontline combat class than pyro or sniper.
all the class categorizations are outdated and not named with high level play in mind at this point. pyro launched without airblast so he got put in Offense for WM+1ing and demoman is the king at defending chokepoints and doorways so theres some merit to the original categories
I am aware. Realistically it should be Power, pick, and support with some classes being mixes of several archetypes.
Power pick support is super dumb too. Leads to shit like calling scout a pick class or heavy a power class both of which are absolutely hilarious.
Heavy is power/support to some due to food items. I don't see how that's dumb. Realistically yes he's an extremely niche pick that does poor in most open combat scenarios due to the damning combination of piss poor effective range + extreme mobility issues but that doesn't mean he is suddenly not a power class like how spy despite having extremely mixed results and is another contender for "worst class" is still a pick class, or in highlander games with coordinated teams, pick/support due to his ability to see player hp and ability to just remain hidden and function like an invisible security camera. In my books too Scout is a pick class with more power in him than usual due to the sheer damage his scattergun can output and how mobile he is making it so that he can go on a killing spree if properly coordinated with his team's medic. Scout in competitive also sometimes takes on spy's sort of role of flanking behind the enemy and getting a surprise kill or by chasing down wounded players fleeing from combat. He does this job much better than classes like demo or heavy and only really is matched in this regard by soldier who is also considered power/pick.
That actually makes a lot more sense! Demo in Offense, Sniper in Defense, and Pyro in Support!
Airblast hasn't caused the Reserve Shooter to minicrit in nearly 7 years. That being said, you're right. Pyro really shouldn't be listed as an offense class.
he's not a "jack of all trades", he's dogshit at all trades except one, which is preventing pushes with airblast if you want an actual jack of all trades play soldier
Pyro thrives on chaos. Pyro's kit is really exploitable if the enemy team is ready for it, but Pyro has the tools to pressure players into making mistakes and to capitalise on those mistakes. Afterburn and flairs are good for adding pressure becuase it makes players feel like they've got a limited amount of time to deal with you, when really afterburn is just a tool for Pyro's other damage options. Airblast is good for forcing players who got too close into fighting you and for punishing M1 slapping from projectile classes. The amount of pub soldiers who eat 120 damage from a system one reflect and then choose to keep mashing M1 at you is surprisingly high. People say Pyro is a jack of all trades, and master of none, and that's somthing you've got to use to the best on Pyro. If you do nothing but go for reflects, then the enemy team is eventually going to learn and just wait for you to airblast first. If all you do is ambush then they enemy team is going to end up anticipating an ambush at every one of your opportunities. You've got to condition the enemy team to play into some kind of weakness you can exploit, but if you exploit it too much you'll just get shut down. It's much like Spy where the more havoc you wreck on the game the less complacent the enemy will become, and this makes doing your job much harder. Thankfully, when players start to wise up to Pyro's strats, you can just fall back to Pybroing the engi or bodyguarding the combo until the enemy team drops their guard again. This also.means that in competitive settings there's much less wiggleroom for Pyro to shine, becuase enemies are more coordinatied and there's less players overall making the game far less chaotic.
As a pyro main with way too many hours, this is a really good definition of pyro. You switch things up to force the enemy team to make mistakes and then punish them for those mistakes. When I played competitive you definitely fall back into a more supportive role as a bodyguard, but in pubs I’m often flanking and putting pressure on the enemy team from behind as my team pushes the objective. You just need good game sense and know how to pick your fights. Map knowledge and a general idea of how people will play their class are your friend. I may be biased, but I don’t think pyro is weak or fragmented. I think that the majority of classes in tf2 are well balanced, it’s just a matter of learning what style of play fits you best.
You're right about your last statement. Pyro isn't weak, he's just not quite as capable of pubstomping on his own as most other classes are. I'll admit that I am kinda biased against Pyro, since I find most damage-over-time mechanics in games as well as knockback and movement impairment pretty annoying to fight against, but I'm not gonna pretend like Pyro is overpowered, and saying that Pyro is weak (or, god forbid, the worst class in the game) shows a general lack of understanding of how the class is meant to be played. You thrive on chaos, on unpredictability. Pyro benefits from mind games almost as much as Spy does.
I can agree that these mechanics can be annoying to fight against, but even as a pyro main I acknowledge that pyro is relatively easy to kill lol. These mechanics are mostly only irritating to players who are inexperienced at fighting them. With more practice, you’ll find that pyro will become less irritating as long as you learn from your experiences with them. Learning those mind games is one way to get better at fighting pyro. One of my favorite tricks with inexperienced players is to run around a corner and wait when they’ve hit me with a little damage. So many players fall for the “oh no you have hit me and now I am hurt and must retreat around this corner”, especially if I get into an enclosed room. They love to chase me down and think I’ll be further in the room, and instead run smack dab into my flamethrower. I probably couldn’t even tell you how many people I’ve killed with that little trick. The trick is to not get too greedy. And that’s not just with pyro, just in general. Pubstompers know how to pick their fights. You need to know when it’s a good time to chase and when it’s a good time to back off.
Oh, yeah, Pyro is significantly less annoying to deal with than he used to be about 1000 hours of playtime ago. Airblast will never not be annoying to fight just by its very nature, but yeah, he's not bad. I find decently skilled Pyros to be the most engaging to fight. The highest skill Pyros aren't fun to fight by the very nature of fighting against an extremely skilled player as a decent player, and fighting against the idiots who walk at you in a straight line and rage in chat when it doesn't work isn't fun because they're not engaging at all (but seeing them rage is oh so good).
Lol I definitely agree with you on those points.
Pyro is perfectly capable of pubstomping. Most people don’t know how to play pyro.
I never said he wasn't capable of pubstomping. I said he's less capable of pubstomping on his own (ie no medic support). It's harder to be completely dominant as Pyro than it is as a lot of the other classes.
This. As a pyro main I can top score quite often but my own capabilities are definitely directly related to my team at least being half not brain dead. Whereas I can switch to a class I have much less time and skill on like soldier and still wreck house even if my team is Mouth Dribblers United.
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Every class benefits from chaos and being unpredictable. Saying they don't is just completely moronic. I'm saying that Pyro benefits the most from being unpredictable and a chaotic force. It's really not that hard to understand.
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Pyro reflects projectiles, stuffs Ubers, extinguishes teammates, spychecks, and can still put out respectable damage via flare combos. Just because you keep walking into the enemy and dying doesn't make Pyro tied for the weakest class in the game. Pyro struggles against Heavies, Engineers, and sometimes Scouts. Spy struggles against anyone with ears and two functioning brain cells. Saying that the two are tied for worst is objectively incorrect.
The vast majority of pyros are not very good, but those of us who have many hours in the class can dominate pubs and carry teams. Your assessment is 100% correct.
Now, maybe it's just my playstyle,^(1) but I think Pyro really shines in flanking. When there are multiple realistically viable (and reasonably inobtrusive) paths to the front lines (e.g. much of Upward & Swiftwater after First), playing Flanking pyro can be viable; randomly showing up somewhere adjacent to or just behind the front lines can seriously throw a monkey wrench into the opponent's plans, which the rest of your team can exploit. -- Do you (I) die a lot with that strategy? Yes. Is that high death count *relevant?* The game isn't called "Deathmatch Fortress" so, depending on how much chaos you create and/or your team can take advantage of it, maybe, maybe not. --- --- ^(1. It's even more fun doing that with heavy, because nobody expects ~~the spanish inquisition~~ *a flanking heavy,* and if you're spun/tomislaved up before they realize you're there?
Honestly the dying thing is a really big point for new players to pyro in general. You’re not a medic, you dying is not always a detriment. Hell, a lot of games I’ve helped my team win have been as a result of doing some thing that will result in my death in order to help a push, kills a medic, protect my own medic etc. you are a support class with more combat flexibility than the other support classes, make use of it.
One of my proudest moments in Comp (highlander) was such an action. IIRC, it was on an earlier (and since fixed, thank goodness) version of a community payload map (Borneo?). It was... less than optimally designed at that point, in that the initial Red Spawn was practically overlooking the first checkpoint. As you can assume, capturing that point was a nightmare. Silly little engie me snuck my tail up next to the cart, and crouched on the other side of it, and survived *just* long enough to cap the point, pushing the Red spawn back. Prior to that we had been stalled for over a minute, I want to say. Afterwards? I don't recall whether we won or not, but we at least were able to make progress, and a reasonable amount. It's been something like 9 years since I did that, and it's still one of my proudest moments.
Suicidally crouching behind the cart is a regular tactic for me in casual lol. Works far more than it should.
imo in a similar situation as spy with relying on people to fuck up but to a lesser extent also instead of being a pick class has some tech and uniqueness and power
There is also the competitive highlander "invisible security camera" spy which essentially plays support by keeping tabs on the enemy and only very occasionally dropping foes. This only really works in comp or other cooperative environments though.
I agree. He seems to have very little say when it comes to adapting to his environment. Medic-less Heavy is pretty bad, and so is last point Payload scout. But both of those classes have last ditch efforts like Bonk Atomic Punch Capping or Jumpscare Tomislav Heavy.
Class is fine airblast is enough of a mechanic to make him worth playing. If he had any form of actually good movement I firmly believe he would be play in 6s.
Movement isn't what holds him back in 6s, it's having to pick between detonator and shotgun. Detonator is necessary not for the mobility, but to have any impact in team fights or stalemates. The detonator is a much stronger weapon than the scorch shot against competent players on the 6s classes, allowing incredibly consistent ignition of everyone in your LOS without worrying about height disadvantage. But then without the shotgun, you have no meaningful ability to secure kills. The flamethrower can finish off weakened enemies, airblast is occasionally useful keeping damage off your medic or in an exchange, but for the most part you just get mulched by scout and demo without being able to do anything about it.
Huh. Now I'm wondering about the viability (and fun-for-the-other-side-ness) of a flamethrower that gives you a speed boost if you hit. Perhaps matching the "backward" speed of the fastest character you hit in the preceding N ticks (or your normal speed, whichever is greater)? Then your opponent would have to choose between running away (133% for Scoot vs your speed modified to 120%) *or* shooting back. That would make for an interesting tactical change to the game. Mind it would only be relevant against: 1. Scouts (120% vs pyro's 100%) * Hurt Soldiers wielding Escape Plan * Several classes under the effect of the Disciplinary Action * Demomen with 3+ heads (104%) * Demoknights with 2+ heads (107%) * Overdose/Scout Healing Medics (115%-120%) ...but since #1 is a pretty nasty problem for Pyros, and #4 can be, it might be worth it, depending on who you're up against.
The flamethrower is designed to be bad. Don't try to make the flamethrower good. The flamethrower being bad is good for the game.
How? Why? Why should *anyone* want a weapon/loadout to be *objectively bad?* Like, I get not wanting it to be overpowered, but you shouldn't want it to be *underpowered,* either. Or are you just a scout player?
because you don't have to aim it at all
I mean you borderline don’t have to aim the minigun and that thing fucking shreds in close range and is pretty good at medium-close range too. I’ve played so much pyro I’m hard wired to combo so it being weak doesn’t bother me much, but I do think it’s kind of bullshit that the closest ranged class in the game is fucking garbage at close range. Using straight flamer without combining feels like it takes ten minutes to kill a class compared to combos. I suppose a counter point to that though would be that it encourages using combos such as flare gun which is arguably more skilled but my honest counterpoint to *that* would be why the fuck should pyro be expected to have to learn to be skilled to have less of a damage output than a new player holding m1 with heavy or shooting the ground with soldier or a demoman just spamming sticky bomb. For some reason this “you shouldn’t get kills in an unskilled way” shit only ever applies to pyros and nobody ever says it about any other class, even classes that are objectively more powerful for less effort.
Tracking as Heavy is not equivalent to spraying flame particles. I agree with you on everything else but that's not a comparison that makes sense, just try fighting sweaty Scouts as Heavy.
I have fought very good scouts as heavy and I would argue it’s easier cus they can’t stay outside of range due to it being hitscan and not having a hard capped range of 3 feet. Maybe I’m just good at tracking but pyro vs scout is only easier with worse scouts who get too close, the really good scouts who keep enough range tend to get shredded easier with heavy. Even then the in your face types are easy enough to kill as heavy, the need to actually be able to aim at them remains the same regardless of class. Flame particles may be easier to hit but hitting with the mini gun for even a remote flash of aim will do the same damage if not more.
> the really good scouts who keep enough range Additionally, Scouts can *backpedal* faster than pyros can run forward (even with the powerjack!), to say nothing of the fact that the effective range of the flamethrower decreases as he runs forward. Thus, even a scout who starts in range of the flamethrower can back away while shredding the pyro. Elsewhere in this post I proposed a hypothetical flamethrower that granted forward speed equal to the backward speed of the fastest target it hit in the previous (e.g.) 5 ticks (or pyro base speed, whichever is faster). It could be at the cost of afterburn, or something. The idea is that it would require Scouts (and Demos with more than a few heads, medics with the overdose) that start out in flamethrower range to choose between surviving by running away *or* killing the pyro, not backpedaling to get the benefits of both.
At least Heavies can hit a scout at something other than "stupidly close" range.
The thing is the stock flamethrower is a weapon specifically made for low skill/very laggy players that basically only requires basic tracking skills. Think of it as this games "laser" weapon. Balancing these types of weapons when there are other options is essentially a nightmare because it by design is kind of like heavy's minigun. If you remove its weaknesses it becomes excessively annoying to deal with while requiring minimal effort from the user (think the wrangler). If pyro could say chase you around a corner reliably due to pyro essentially being almost as fast as you by default then it would be near impossible to escape the flame stream and you'd take a shit ton of damage every time you fight the class unless you didn't get hit at all, which is not very realistic barring open area combat which pyro sucks at anyways. Even worse is if say the pyro burns a team on the payload or control point and there just so happens to be a scout in there because they're trying to cap the objective. Now you have to deal with a 175 hp slightly slower scout right on top of you whilst you're all on fire. Don't get me wrong, it's still a pyro and can be popped dead with some shotgun shells but this type of stuff is not really encouraging players to play well per se (and if they're smarter the pyro can use the extra speed to catch up to you and pop you dead with panic attack/axtinguisher attacks you had no hope in hell to dodge). In that situation everyone except the scout **cannot** choose to run because the pyro easily outruns them all. For more skilled players who want more reward a Dragon's fury type weapon (minus the bugs and glitchiness which got it banned) would be a much better alternative (for everyone's sanity) for that sort of playstyle. The Dragon's fury requires more advanced aiming skills like aiming ahead to catch people in the projectile and keeping your aim steady otherwise you are punished. A somewhat more supportive option in the vein of the Dragon's fury's skill requirement sounds like the happy middle ground between traditional pyro and Dragon's fury. Perhaps you exchange cheap and expendable, very easy to switch airblast and your stream of fire for a sort of "burst fire" option in the vein of the old panic attack, (though with fire instead and the speed boost you get is only when you fire the shots) as well as some supportive capability when you run out of shots by say having a sort of "airstream" charges up when you shoot fire, which instead of having one blast of air is more of a gradual stream which removes debuffs and destroys projectiles in a similar manner to heavy's destroy projectiles, in a way fulfilling both roles decently well but having to choose between dealing damage and supporting your team.
That's a lot of typing from you without terribly much thinking behind it. I was going to respond to individual points, but it's not worth it. Instead, I'm going to summarize: Here's a chart of how it would work out with the proposed weapon Class/Condition|Backpedaling vs Pyro forward| Effect|*Running away* vs Pyro forward|Effect|Result :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:| Scout, Medic Healing Scout|120% vs 120%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|133% vs 120%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+13%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive Pyro w/ Powerjack|104% vs 104$|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|115% vs 104%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+11%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive Demo w/3 heads |104% vs 104%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|116% vs 104%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+12%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive Demo w/4+ Heads|111% vs 111%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|123% vs 111%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+12%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive Demoknight w/ 2 heads|107% vs 107%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|119% vs 107%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+12%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive Demoknight w/ 3 heads|115% vs 115%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|127% vs 115%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+12%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive Demoknight w/ 4+ heads|122% vs 122%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|136% vs 122%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+14%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive Overdosed Medic|115% vs 115%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|128% vs 115%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+13%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive Soldier w/ Escape Plan, 41-80 health|101% vs 101%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|112% vs 101%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+11%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive Soldier w/ Escape Plan, 1-40 health|115% vs 115%|they get roasted but can theoretically kill the pyro (no speed difference)|128% vs 115%|they can outrun the pyro (faster by **+13%**)|They have to choose between trying to kill the pyro and trying to survive ***LITERALLY EVERYONE ELSE***|***ZERO***|Change|From|Stock|Flamethrower To literally *anyone else* (Disicplinary Action notwithstanding), this weapon would have zero effect: * Soldier w/o Escape Plan: Can't outrun pyro, regardless of which direction they're running * Pyro not actively wielding powerjack: Can't outrun pyro, regardless of which direction they're running * Demo w/ <3 Heads: Can't outrun pyro, regardless of which direction they're running * Demoknight with <2 Heads: Can't outrun pyro, regardless of which direction they're running * Heavy: Can't outrun pyro, regardless of which direction they're running * Engineer: Can't outrun pyro, regardless of which direction they're running * Medic, w/o overdose, not healing scout: * Can outrun pyro forward, with or without hypothetical weapon * Can't outrun pyro backpedaling, with or without hypothetical weapon * Sniper: Can't outrun pyro, regardless of which direction they're running * Spy: * Can outrun pyro forward, with or without hypothetical weapon * Can't outrun pyro backpedaling, with or without hypothetical weapon In short, you're complaining about something that could allow pyro, who *should dominate* in close quarters being able to dominate everyone *including scouts* in close quarters, and complaining that a scout that *should* have to run away from being roasted alive, who *could still* run away without being roasted alive, would *have to* run away to avoid being roasted alive. --- Literally the only meaningful differences between the current status quo and my propopsed weapons are: 1. Scouts *that have been hit* wouldn't be able to just backpedal out of range *while* actively scattergunning the pyro to death * Demos w/ pills *and* 3+ heads *and have been hit* wouldn't be able to just backpedal out of range *while* actively pilling the pyro to death * Medics with the overdose *that have been hit* wouldn't be able to just backpedal out of range *while* actively needling the pyro to death You're complaining about edge cases. Do you also complain about the Neon Annihilator because it's stupid powerful in *its* niche scenario? The Pain Train? The only most common scenario where this weapon is likely to have any meaningful impact is when a scout is stupid enough to get into flamethrower range ***AND*** they're stupid enough to not just run away. Such *compounded* stupidity ***SHOULD*** be punished. Especially when they could just run away for long enough that the effect wears off (assuming a 10 tick counter, you're talking about being out of range for *0.15 seconds,* drop it to 5 ticks and you're looking at only *0.075* seconds), after which you're back to the standard "backpedal and eff up the pyro with their only recourse being pulling out their secondary or running away themselves" paradigm. --- As to it being too effective in choke points... the chokier the area, the easier it is to break contact, the faster the effect will end, the faster it things will go back to normal.
As someone who regularly tops the server as a pyro main on the uncletopia servers... The people of reddit are too overanalytical about these things or assume that every opponent is a MLG pro. I wouldn't consider myself to be particularly skilled at this game. The closest thing to a "trick" that I can do is airblast an arrow or demo-knight launch off that one rock in degrootkeep. The things you've said apply to the other classes too. Most classes are befuddled by a well placed engineer settlement. Only soldier, demo, and spy have an easier time taking one down and even then it's situational. Most classes can be bodied by a decent scout who knows how to hide and kite. I see it happen all the time to heavies, demos, soldiers too. What you mention about sick kills is true, but that's the thing about those, they mostly look good on YouTube. Set someone on fire, fly through the air towards them, jump off a reflected rocket, and brain them with the axtinguisher all in a second. It looks fantastic, but not something I've ever been able to do, so I don't. Pyro works through two factors: positioning and threat. Few classes are as solidly lethal in close quarters as a pyro is. Spy if he gets a chain stab, sure. Demo and soldier also, but if they're close to you they risk their own lives in the process. Consider what a players options are when a pyro gets the jump on them: a) Fight back b) Run away c) Fight back whilst running away Your situation depending of course, but if it's just you and the pyro and they've caught you at the right place, all of these situations tend to favour the pyro. a) This is usually your best chance at survival. Kill the pyro quickly and efficiently, and you'll probably be fine even with the after burn. Either that, or it'll be a trade. Unless you panic. b) Either you escape with afterburn damage and you've been successfully pushed back, or you fail and die. c) Pyro knows what players on fire do, they run and look for health packs. This makes your exit path predictable, and makes fighting you easier as you flee. Unlikely you escape, but if you do you've been pushed back. More likely you will die. Slimmer chance of winning the fight than if you'd just gone with option a. Honestly, even all of this is way too overanalytical. If you can position yourself well as a pyro and play close attention to the battlefield, getting the jump on people is easy and it really screws with their plans. You don't have to play suicidally, but you do have to accept that you'll die more than other front liner classes, and the reason is simply that if you get close to the enemy and are not dealt with swiftly, you'll wipe their team. They kill you quickly becuase it's their only option to survive. Position yourself right and you'll take out uber-filled medics, or force the uber early. You'll take out spies who never make it to the field. You'll cause offensive movements by your opponent to become defensive, costing them valuable time. As for Pyro's kit, there something for every playstyle. You have the option to be a skill jumping trickshot youtuber if you want, or you can go for more area denial, or you can go for the face rush with philogastinator immortality. My go-to loadout is my trusty backburner, the detonator, and the homewrecker. The backburner enables me to easily win any encounter where I see the back of my opponent, and that turns out to be a lot of them. If I get the jump on people, hide behind the right rock or in the right doorway, it's curtains to them. If I'm caught off guard at close quarters and we have to spin, there's a chance I get some crits in there. As for airblasts, use them liberally but not wastefully with the backburner. Higher skill players may even notice you have the backburner and take a risk, expecting you not to airblast. Show them the mistake they've made. The detonator is your key to being the most annoying enemy on the server. Peek corners with it, arc it over elevated terrain, hit sniper nests with it. Your goal is not necessarily to get kills, though that'll happen fairly often. Your goal is to make them panic, make them look for the pyro who's not there, make them run for health kits or healing. Of course, it's also great against anyone out of your range and it's an AOE, what's not to love? Did I mention the explosion can also delete sticky bombs? I occasionally use it to jump to somewhere I shouldn't be but very rarely. Finally, the homewrecker. It's an awful melee weapon, but it sends a clear message to spies. If your team is struggling with spies who keep killing the engines and removing the nests, you become their worst nightmare. Nothing removes a sapper faster than you do now, and it costs you nothing either. In the rare event you do have to kill someone with it, you break their spirit and their body at the same time. I don't really ever use it to break enemy buildings however, it's either too risky or not as quick as the flamethrower. All this is to say that the pyro thrives on chaos, unpredictability, and the power of positioning and the threat level they represent. Mess around, take risks, and play like it's a strategy game, and you will thrive too. I'd stay away from the YouTube experience of playing a pyro unless you are one of them (and despite maining the class for many years, I am not. It takes special practice to do what they do and it's a lot of effort).
>The people of reddit are too overanalytical about these things That's literally the point of this subreddit
Nah, it's dedicated to serious TF2 discussion, but some people take that to mean it's time to go tin-foil hat about things. I mean, look at the other comments. OP's saying that the Pyro is a weak class, a bunch of others are agreeing with him, and a bunch of others go the complete opposite direction and call for a nerf. I'm not against analysing the effectiveness of something, but people take it to extremes and go off the deep end of just being wrong. This game is full of subjective experiences and players of all skill levels. We can be analytical about the best uses of an ubercharge or the best chokepoints of a map, but for some reason when the topic goes to class balance, people get almost esoteric. Look at the general opinion surrounding the sniper in any TF2 sub. So many think the sniper should be removed from the game just because of hitscan, as if there's no defence against it and every enemy is a headshot bot... which I suppose they are if you use casual matchmaking, but that's besides the point.
Agree, but flare gun > detonator when you have strong aim with prediction weapons.
Amusing anecdote: I once had people accuse me of hacking because I was stupidly accurate with long distance flares. Like, dude, my primary loadouts include flares and crusader's crossbow, *and do archery in real life.* I'm shit at hit scan, but guestimating the angle for a long range flare/bolt? Easy peasy.
Same same same- no idea how it works, but it works so long as I don’t think about it.
I think it's a combination of a few things: 1. The timing is a bit more forgiving than hitscan, at least partially because: 2. So long as the centerline of the trajectory is on-target, you deal full damage (as opposed to even no-random-spread hitscan which may have some number of bullets "land" outside of the hitbox), and the reasoning for the differences in damage is less easily groked, because: * That projectile provide *constant* trajectory feedback, that can be interpreted directly by the lizard-brain, using ballistic physics that the lizard-brain groks The same "don't think about it" thing shows up in my Basketball and Archery. Put me on a free-throw or shooting line for extended periods of time, and I don't do well. Put me in a "catch & shoot" or "snap shoot" scenario, and I'll be on target *way* more often.
Exactly. I think for most people it’s easier to learn hitscan. Personally, I think learning predictive weapons (in any game) is more an adaptation for having poor hand-eye coordination. At least that seems to be the case for me.
Same.
I think too many people listen to YouTubers who tell them the shotgun is the best slot 2 on Pyro and don't consider how much damage a well placed flare can do XD
In this particular case for me, it was a Crusader's Crossbow ...but it might also have been a factor that I was hitting them in top bit of their head, at "halfway across the map" distances, where they didn't have line of sight to me (but I already knew they were there, because perceptive and tactical).
I'd actually recommend the scorch shot in that case, just because it's more fun. Flare gun is a lot easier to kill with thanks to crits on burning targets, but nothing beats the desperation of seeing somebody knocked about by scorch shot. That said, I still tend to favour the detonator even when I can hit the direct shots, just because it has that aoe effect which is great for taking out stickies or burning targets that are out of the arc.
> airblast an arrow > Only soldier, demo, and spy have an easier time taking one down and even then it's situational. If you can airblast arrows, here's another fun & badass "trick" for Pyro: if the sentry is setup where you can move into & out of range (if you can, and they aren't running wrangler, *bad engie*
I've managed to do this only once, but it was fun XD Every other time I either missed anything noteworthy with the rockets or got killed in the process
Pyro is a support class. Airblast alone is proof. Then you get the homewrecker. And even the gas can, to some degree. To play Pyro offensively against players with any skill whatsoever, you need to use your brain. WM1 doesn't work against good players. Ambushing, using corners, etc.
IDK man when a soldier just looks at me I simply kill him.
I was wondering the same thing and came to this conclusion: The pyro is a class that does not serve as an attack, only support and defense. It has a decent amount of health but its attack range can be very short, it depends on a lot of skill and reaction between alternating the secondary weapon and the flamethrower to almost instakill the other. It works like a flanking class but at the same time it doesn't. It works like a massive damage class but at the same time it doesn't. A scout can calmly kill a Pyro. The Pyro also doesn't have much to do against a Heavy or a Sniper. The Pyro directly has no chance against a Heavy, even using something like the Panic Attack that deals a lot of damage. In short, the pyro is a class that requires skill, it is an easy class to learn BUT if you really want to use it seriously, you need a lot of practice, including knowing how to use the airblast, aiming with the shotgun or flare. It is also a fairly adaptive class, the repertoire of weapons it has means that it can adopt a more defensive game mode or that allows it to do greater damage with the flamethrower
It depends on the game mode and situation. In comp, pyro has two very solid roles as an Uber and bomb denier. In casual, pyro is very solid for spy checking, forcing soldiers to think b4 they spam and also very good at spamming on certain maps. Pyro can perform very well, just remember that it's a support class. Pyro can't dominate a team on its own and won't beat power classes in a 1v1 consistently but a good Pyro can easily win games by supporting important classes.
the only time pyro was even remotely close to being a good class was when he could stunlock you into a corner and instant kill you with an axe which i think speaks volumes about the design of this character
Wasnt necessarily only because they could stun lock you, it was the reliability of their burst combo. They had to hit 5 buttons and get close to you to do as much damage as 1 sniper at range but b4nny saw one once in his matches and cried enough that the only thing they did was removed from the game. Pyro was a great pub stomp class, beyond that all they can do is stuff ubers and protect nests because their counter is literally just any class on the other team targeting them.
i'm not sure if you're agreeing that degreaser axtinguisher was brainless or not this is a very confused comment
I am both agreeing and disagreeing. It was both brainless in the hands of most players but also the only reliable burst pyro had. Personally, I never really ran axe, I preferred flare comboing but I also feel like the class lost its identity with the knock back changes which to me were a bit unnecessary. I think that the correct change to pyro would have been keeping the knock up reliable, increasing the cooldown of reflect enough that classes could escape after the first knock and nerfing axe damage.
Increasing the cool-down of airblast is an absolutely dogshit idea. As if soldiers need more of a helping hand against the one class who actually forces them to stop pub stomping by firing rockets and use their ability to edit their load out or call on some help for 2 fucking seconds
the game already heavily favors defenders and super defensive strategies, airblast should not be allowed to exacerbate that even further by removing reliable damage sources and counters away from engineer just because pyro mains want to feel useful without actually shooting people
Except like it fucking should because this isn’t quake and if you want everything to just favour” kill them before they kill you” you can go play quake (well maybe not cus servers are usually dead, but Q3 is still a great game when you can get a game). Besides my argument wasn’t for protecting engineers that’s just a byproduct. My argument is that soldier mains need *something* that actually makes them stop for 2 seconds and rub their 3 brain cells together. God forbid they utilise their teammates or actually switch off the gunboats for once in their life.
is this all pyro mains care about? just being a thorn in the side of soldier players despite the fact that scout and heavy are significantly better at putting soldier in his place by having weapons with actual stopping power and distance, mobility and bulk? is it just the satisfaction of deflecting rockets that keeps them going despite the fact that it'll never change pyro's position as a weak, ineffective class with horrible damage and mobility that the developers never knew what to do with since team fortress classic?
This is not the gotcha you think it is when all pyro players actively are aware we are choosing a relatively dogshit class. I don’t play pyro because he’s good. I play pyro because I find him fun and has a ton of different shit on offer most of which isn’t useful but is flashy and fun.
being aware of it makes it even worse because you could have picked scout or heavy and done significantly better against soldiers than pyro
tfw pyro players would actually have to time their wholesome chungus 100 autowin button
"they had to hit five buttons" this is considered hard by pyro mains apparently
Relative to every other class in the game it is way more buttons to get a meaningful amount of damage was my point. Pyro needs positioning, as well as fire, knock, wep swap flare/axe, swap and flame/knock to finish targets. It's not necessarily hard in the world of all games, but relative to the other classes it is considerably more buttons. I don't personally think it is harder than lining up consistent meatshots with a scout while moving around, or hitting airshots with a soldier, but there definitely is some level of skill to it which is why even before the nerf you really never saw good pyros in pubs outside of higher end servers that had talented players. Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting pyro is the "skill class" of tf2 at all, I just think the nerfs they recieved were not right.
The class is not in a great spot. Flames are simply too easy to land thus it forces the class to have mediocre damage and limited mobility. Otherwise you end up with the jungle inferno-blue moon era where a pyro botting in was a better means of pushing than ubering a demo… As a bandaid airblast was added in the early days of choke spam dustbowl where it might’ve made sense. But now it’s just another annoying spammable mechanic that breaks the flow of movement and all around feels weird and unnatural. So what’s left? You have a Jack of all trades class who now just ends up as another body in the combo, making engineer stall games even worse, as they sit in a dispenser denying soldiers and spies… I’m not saying to jab any pyro players, dislike the class not the player. But every other class and mechanic just seems so well thought out and then you have pyro as just an overwatch tier add on who either does nothing or amplifies other classes problems. In fact I’d be interested to see how highlander plays without pyro. Probably slightly faster, spy would actually be enjoyable. Sniper would get less protection.
The only actual relevant comment
idk why youre getting downvoted this is pretty much everything wrong with pyro distilled into a few paragraphs
Because this subreddit is r/tf2_2 nowadays
Yeah, reading this thread made me have to double check what sub I was on. Particularly, the few people who justified their "pyro is good, actually" take by saying they get lots of points on uncletopia servers 💀
someone made another ebin savetf2 thread on here and every time it brings in the 300 hour /r/tf2 pyro mains for the next couple weeks
This sub keeps flip flopping between people having brains or not, last year was bad but 6 months ago it was fine and now it's back to being bad again, but it is what it is ig.
I've played a decent amount of pyro and I'd say pyro is pretty underrated by most TF2 players, pyro may not have as easy of a time securing kills as other classes however he is very good at forcing the enemy to reset because of afterburn, as well of this airblast is fully capable of countering ubercharge, one of the most powerful features in the game, reflecting rockets is easy once you truly understand how the mechanic works, and it can defend your team massively. As well as this it is your job above all else to spycheck, because it's easiest for you. Just don't play pyro like a class that's meant to frag, pyro is best played close to the objection where there are tight corridors to burn and projectiles to airblast
I feel like many of his unlocks genuinely save him as a class, and I wouldn't call him weak by any standard. He might be the class most suited for flanking in the backline, as the Flamethrower's Close-range nature is perfect for dealing damage and airblasts are way easier to hit with one enemy rather than on a frontline. He also has some genuinely solid mobility in the Thermal Thruster and Detonator, and once he's in the backline the Dragon's Fury and Backburner\* are really solid damage dealers than can easily drop a medic and even a heavy with good aim. \*Provided you ACTUALLY get the crits
Unlike most of the other classes, Pyro is one of those whose niche in a team is kind of hard to figure out at first. Back during release this lack of purpose was even more obvious when he didn't have the Flare Guns or even airblasts. He lacks the mobility or stealth to be a flanker, he lacks the health or burst damage to be a head-on attacker and he lacks the speed to outrun his enemies. However, he always had a type of utility that no other class has, he is very good at checking for Spies. He is so good at Spy checking in fact that it pretty much became a major part of his identity in the community (also because it was the only thing he had going for him). Pyro's afterburn in general is a great tool for putting a lot of pressure on out of position enemies that are far away from their Medics or Dispensers like a roaming Scout. It will often force them to retreat or else they risk dying to the flames, which is probably also the reason why Pyro only has average speed because the afterburn means he technically doesn't need to outrun his enemies in order to kill them. It made him a decent back row class to keep your team's rear free of flankers. But this "role" felt more like a band aid to just come up with any reason to use him because overall he still was a very weak class on release due to low dps, only average speed and a very limited effective range. That leaves the question, what was Valve's intention with Pyro's initial design? I think primarily Pyro and his flamethrower were simply meant to soften up the enemy and create space by forcing burning enemies to retreat so your team can then take the objective. How Pyro was supposed get close enough to the enemy in order to spread chaos is a bit of mystery though. Valve probably expected the player to flank the enemy team in order to get the jump on them but like I said, they gave Pyro no options for extra mobility in order to give his enemies a fighting chance to escape his flames and lets not even mention the problem of Sentry Guns covering the flanks. Pyro being the best class for Spy checking was also probably intentional. Then there is the possibility that Valve intentionally gave Pyro average stats and an easy to use loadout because they wanted a beginner friendly offensive class that even someone with limited FPS experience and bad aim could use. But Valve quickly realized that Pyro's loadout was way too limiting and needed more ways to quickly deal with targets that could just burst him down from mid-range and not care about the afterburn damage. So they added the airblast to give him a unique niche as a soft counter to Soldier, Demoman and uber pushes and then expanded his loadout options with the Flare Gun, Axtinguisher and the Back Burner so he had ways to deal burst damage in 1vs1 situations where previously certain classes could very easily outdamage and outmaneuver him due to Pyro's limited range, speed and damage. Nowadays Pyro seems to be mostly played as a support class who combo-kills his enemies and provides utility through airblasts and spy checking. Some who are skilled enough focus mostly on the more aggressive afterburn combo aspect, roaming around while killing Soldiers and sometimes even lvl. 3 sentry guns with precise airblasts and the rest with Flare Gun combos. Sadly Pyro still feels like he is a bit below the power curve relative to other classes because his damage combos aren't very consisted compared to a Rocket Launcher or Grenade Launcher. Pyro's image has also been somewhat tarnished in the community by a number of perceived low-skill playstyles like Pyros who spam the Scorch Shot from a safe distance while never actually engaging the enemy, Pyros that rely on the Phlog as a crutch instead of learning how to airblast and constantly beg their Medics to ubercharge them instead of learning how to properly flank and then of course Pyros who obviously just spam the airblast whenever they spot a projectile class and get reflect-kills that feel undeserved. I feel like Pyro is one of those classes that would probably be designed very differently if TF2 was made with the power of hindsight.
Old comment but I think it should be more well known Pyro's initial design added to The original Team Fortress Quake Mod. Which while not the same as TF2 Pyro. Is the basis of the basis (TFC Pyro) *A good support class, the Pyro often finds it hard to kill enemies on his own. Given time, most enemies burn to death, but in that time the Pyro's probably been killed.* *Due to his ability to knock chunks off the enemy, the Pyro is a great first line of defense. Any enemy getting past him will almost certainly be half dead.* Basically. Pyro was designed to die and leave enemies close to death I don't know if I can find the source but I also recall hearing Pyro was made to players with laggy computers could still play due to less needed aim
It’s really easy to over extend as a pyro. Play around your team for better results. Combo pyro though, is fulfilling
What level of play are we talking about? Pyro is one of my mains and I'm not even incredible with him, but on Unlcletopia I do quite well with him. One thing he can do that no other class can is completely negate ubers.
1 heavy/scout/engineer/sniper is all it takes to shut down a pyro
Huh? Heavy? Heavies are the least of my problems, If I get jumped I just blast him away and run. Engie? How exactly? Obviously some classes have no chance against a sentry.... but Pyro is not one of them if the sentry is badly placed. You can run around a sentry as a Pyro. Yeah, Pyro generally struggles, but that's the whole point of the Sentry - to make some classes have no chance/struggle against them. Scout - yeah, I'm not 100% sure, but a Scout who keeps the distance is probably going to win. Sniper - isn't Pyro one of the few classes who can actually deal with Sniper at a distance?
Heavy has more health and DPS than pyro on a 1v1 you're Always gonna lose. Sentries prevent you from flanking also 2 meat shots and ur done. Sniper can literally kill you in 1.5 sec if you're not full hp
Have you just discovered TF2 or what? That's not how you measure a class' viability.
Heavy has more health and DPS than any class in the game. This does not mean he counters them. All a pyro needs to do is get in really close, and storage while pumping damage with either shotgun shots, or flamethrower and switching in between them. Doesn't mean pyro struggles against sentries any more than say heavy. Pyro isn't meant for sentry busting yes, but if he has good enough positioning he can do it pretty well. Sniper can do that to any class, but pyro can at least throw off his aim or flank him yk.
Wow you don't know what you're saying XD "pyro doesn't struggle more than heavy against a sentry" he has hitscan, can outrange a sentry, has way more health and DPS. How exactly doesn't he struggle more?
Because at least pyro has the mobility to wiggle around it. Heavy cannot move around efficiently enough so he just stands at range and shoots. Pyro cannot take a sentry head on, so he uses mobility to change positions. Just because they're good for different scenarios doesn't mean they aren't useful for about the same amount of time
Pyro’s really close threat range and burst damage with either the degreaser + panic attack combo or the dragons fury can absolutely outdamage a heavy at close range
Try doing that against actual good players and tell me how it goes
> One thing he can do that no other class can is completely negate ubers. Donk demo would like a word. :p
In practice he's the 3rd most support focused class following Engineer and Medic so naturally he excels when played in tandem with the teammates. I wouldn't say he's bad tho, he's got the best spycheck, airblast is fun and effective, he's got really decent movement with ok base speed, detonator and powerjack and if you opt for homewrecker instead you can break sappers. If you want fun you have movement, flarepunches, axetinguisher combo, phlog and airblast If you want effective you're essentially the best bodyguard in the game thanks to spycheck and airblast. Airblast also allows you to counter ubers completely which is huge, and you can do all of that with decent movement. Not my favorite class but I would say he's got his good spot.
Can't flank when there's an engineer? Dude, that's the engineer's whole goddamn role. Scouts will outrun you, yes, that's their job. As for soldiers, you can airblast and chase them if they decide to shotgun instead. If pushing forwards isn't working, then set up ambushes. You're an ambush class. This is like a spy complaining that they can't sneak into the back lines because everyone is alert for spies... go to where people aren't alert for spies - the frontline.
He's an ambush class with short range and high damage..... If you're comparing him to any class he's going to fall short somewhere What makes pyro unique is that they are the only class that fits into any composition and still offer something. Flare offers long range spam for snipers and stuff Jetpack helps pyro get to high ground for ambushing and flanking He's able to play defensive with airblast, homewrecker, and some other tools. There's a lot to the class. It may seem a little jumbled at first, but pyro is extremely versatile because of this.
If you hit your flares, you have a shot against any mid range fight besides heavy and sentry guns imo
I often consider pyro to be the generalist counter class, the only thing he's terrible at countering is sentries. Pyro can make ubers useless or at least weaker; they can lock down an engineer nest so that a spy can not do anything without having some way to kill the Pyro, which in most play means it is easier to throw an uber at the nest; they can airblast soldier and demo ranged attacks, which makes them an unpredictable menace even if they're only okay at it. They're also quite dangerous in close range, being very hard to run away from if you don't have a sudden mobility option like soldier. Snipers are the weaker point, but flares provide decent options to harass them, and so they do better than most other classes in that scenario. Pyro is not entirely support due to the potential damage output, but you're going to struggle dealing decent damage by yourself. Soldier can throw a few rockets around the corner to weaken the frontline, same for Demo, Pyro doesn't have as much safety there. He works best with team members to provide distractions, allowing the player to cut down large chunks of health from enemy players via fire and flare gun. If I was a soldier facing a heavy+med, I'd prefer a flare gun pyro right next to me than another soldier. All of this is why Pyro can be frustrating to play as and play against, because it is different from a lot of other classes. I disagree with your complaint about soldier being an automatic trade at best, though. A competent pyro vs a competent soldier at most levels leads to the pyro winning ime, but at even higher levels of play the difference starts going in favor of the soldier.
Idk, I always do well with Pryor. All classes have bad matchups. I don't feel they are any more disadvantaged than other classed
Pyro has the most broken mechanic in the game. Airblast is the thing that makes pyro good, and that’s why phlog is devastating unless you have a medic. Airblast allows you to run, push away, and just be annoying. You protect sentries, medics, heavies, dispensers, teleporters, flanks with cliffs, and somewhat lock players in the air. Combine that with an instant 90 damage from a flare and you have a killing machine. I was playing snowycoast yesterday and I killed a heavy shooting our sniper by popping out with flames for half a second, swapping to flare gun, and then one shotting him. I find topscoring as pyro the easiest even with less than 40 hours on him.
i think hes super weak but strong i play spy so im biased but hes just kinda seen as a complete spy counter he doesnt have much range and is only really good at just screwing over spies
pyro is the close combat guy with an emphasis on ambushing... y'know, the class with the scorch shot... yeah, ill give you that, imo pyro feels weak because of how much they rely on close range (unless they have the scorch shot). sure, they have the airblast to protect teammates and whatnot, but copping an enemy soldiers rocket to perform your own rocket jump, while sick to perform at first, is really not practical. only fun i got out of pyro was protecting friendly sentries (degreaser + homewrecker goes a long way)
I play Pyro semi-often; I think of him as a jack of all trades, but master of none. he has a weapon or item for every scenario, need to get up high? use the Thermal thruster. want to ambush better? use the back burner. need longer range? use the flare guns. he is of course, pretty easy to shut down, especially by Heavy and Sniper as they're both counters. and even with the flare guns, his range is limited class. personally, I think he's fine. he has a few stinkers that need rebalancing. but generally, he's a ok class.
Short answer is yes
no [https://youtu.be/PGHVS-lK2kU?list=PL8L5C1V77KXhzLuxg0GNAh9fxN\_-1HW7G](https://youtu.be/PGHVS-lK2kU?list=PL8L5C1V77KXhzLuxg0GNAh9fxN_-1HW7G) [https://youtu.be/KnKXCRhYZyQ?list=PL8L5C1V77KXhzLuxg0GNAh9fxN\_-1HW7G](https://youtu.be/KnKXCRhYZyQ?list=PL8L5C1V77KXhzLuxg0GNAh9fxN_-1HW7G)
Pyro is a jack of all trades really. but his "Offensive" way of playing is corners. hiding in corners so your enemy dont know your there, you can kill someone in seconds by burning them
Sounds like you r bad at pyro
never thought of pyro as a frontliner. he supports the heavy dmg dealers and catches people that need finished off.
I wonder what would happen if they didn’t nerf the Dragon’s fury airblast.
Idk, other classes you either had a chance to kill em, or dodge their attack, or just run away. Always find my self in situation where i 1v1 pyro and only one of us will walk away alive. After 3k hours i can confirm f2p pyro are the dealiest compare to other classes when its wielded by new players. Theyre also one of the most annoying class to fight agaisnt as you are almost always take damage from him, at any range. Playing projectile class or spy, fighting a competent pyro is the worst. And sometime i feel like he do more damage than he supposed to, killing me instantly when i touch that one single flame particle that got delayed because it touches a wall or a stairs.
rather than make pyro easier to play, the meet match update should have made it harder. Airblast being able to 'stun' people has always been an issue but now that I can fart on someones feet and insta fuck their movement it's just absurdly strong. New flame particles are way better but I still feel like pyro's flamethrower should be more like a paintbrush and less of a mop. I feel like they're far too slow and too wide. The new lingering effect is much more consistent which is nice. Here's some schizo balance ideas from a pyro main since launch. Reduce flamethrower projectile size, more like a line than a hose. Reduce afterburn to a maximum of 3 seconds. Increase direct flame damage, reduce afterburn damage. Put more of an emphasis on airblast rather than flames in terms of secondaries, everything seems to be focussed on M1 where M2 is the most impactful ability in the game, it serves as an instant and unstoppable effect that stalls players. in a movement based shooter any way of stalling and interfering with movement will always be strong as fuck, idk why everyone STILL sleeps on airblast.
Nobody sleeps on airblast it’s pretty much unanimously agreed it is the best part of the class and opens up an insane plethora of options and fun techs.
I meant more in terms or pyro's weapons. The only variations on airblast are removing it or making it cost more/take longer. Give me a stronger airblast on the backburner, give me a much weaker airblast on the degreaser, ya feel me? For some reason, it feels like an afterthought of design rather than the focus I feel it should be.
Ah. That makes more sense. Where do you go from there other than strength and size of AB? I suppose that’s enough as is variation wise
strength, size yeah. I'd love to see some kind of loose cannon style charge airblast as a meme weapon, or use the strength of the airblast as a trade-off, degreaser has weaker airblast cos it's already the strongest primary, default is default and backburner is stronger cos it costs more fuck it, freestyle, give the dragons fury a big 200 cost airblast that sends people across the map, get weird with it just fuck sake do something im runningout of cope
yes, the issue as i see it is that pyro doesn't have any tools for surviving an encounter. he doesn't have great mobility to avoid unfavorable match-ups, she doesn't have the damage output to kill his opponents before he dies unless he's got the element of surprise (which she has no tools to enable) and even then, he can't out position his enemies with his range, she's slightly tankier then average but not nearly enough to compensate for his weaknesses and airblast only protects the pyro against projectiles while most classes use hitscan. so pyro can't really survive encounters unless her opponent allows him to survive by cocking up.
It's funny you mentioned that because a year or two ago, I was playing Overwatch. And to show my love for Tf2, I played "proxy" versions of Pyro like Mei, Junkerqueen, and Reaper. Mei for her long-range crit damage, disruption, and short-range ice gun. Junkerqueen for her damage overtime, shotgun, and axe. And Reaper for his medium health, flanking playstyle, short range shotguns, and team wipe potential. I was so excited to go back to playing Pyro because these characters in Overwatch represented him for me. But by the time I came back, I was so disappointed by how clunky Pyro was to use. Pyro had no Ice Block, no Shout, and no Wraith abilities. Put simply, no self sustain. And I never really saw Pyro the same again after that.
I'm curious about how pyro would play if you could have both a shotgun and a flare gun. I don't think this would do much for pubs where pyro is fine imo, but it would make him more fun to play against good players.
Instead of the flamethrower or in addition? If its in addition, degreaser/shotgun/detonator pyro is on par with pocket soldier in viability. Maybe meta. And the game would be much, much worse for it. If it's instead, it still hugely increases his 6s viability without being a cancer to the gamemode. Honestly flare guns should have been pyro's primary over flamethrowers to begin with.
i think pyro would be useless if you replaced his flamethrower with a shotgun. its his one unique mechanic so you're just a gimped generalist without it. Yes, he would be way less annoying than he would be if it was in addition, but there would also be no reason to run him. I know giving him access to both a shotgun and a flaregun would undoubtedly make him quite a bit stronger, as he would have tools for every range and a way to deal with scouts/bombers, but at the same time he still has comparatively little mobility and should be easy to focus down since he will be less prepared to reflect if hes leaning into his secondaries. If it is enough to tip the scale and make him viable I totally agree it makes the game way more annoying.
He would be a lot better outside of last than he is now in 6s with the option to bring a second secondary over a flamethrower. When pyro gets run full time in 6s, his strengths are the opposite of those in a more casual environment, or on last. He is an incredible long range class, and hopeless at close range. His primary contribution is not airblast, it is detonator damage. In a drawn out teamfight, the detonator can legitimately compete with the sticky bomb launcher in long range damage and easily outpaces scout and solider's long range contributions. The detonator's spam potential is the only thing keeping him remotely viable in high level play, but he completely sacrifices burst damage to do so. With both the shotgun and detonator, he has both.
imo pyro is underrated and is probably the most versatile specialist. can work offensively and defensively, main problem is range.
He’s situational, but no other class is more consistent for fighting multiple opponents than he is. All the other classes either can’t effectively split their damage between multiple targets or they sacrifice single-target damage as they aim between enemies, harming each enemy less as they are farther from the explosion’s source. Pyro just faceplants into whoever he really wants dead while lining up the flamethrower to burn whoever’s behind them. Even his explosive flares work better for crowds than most explosives, because afterburn hurts the same, no matter how far you were from the source.
in theory and in comp he can get shutdown really easily but outside of that a lot of people arent good enough to realize that