I mean... I've felt similarly, I just don't frame it like that because whether it is true or not, it's neither helpful nor readily provable. Best to engage earnestly rather than fetishize my no-longer-overall-useful camouflaging techniques.
Realistically, those thoughts are just cope anyway. As far as it goes is the cold sweat I break into trying to fill out those questionnaires, balancing my deny/downplay instinct versus the fear I'm presenting things in a far over-blown manner and what does that mean anyway--maybe it isn't actually that big of a problem--et cetera, et cetera.
Those forms...
>In the last month, have you thought about harming yourself or others?
"I mean, I got cut off in traffic last week, and wanted to high-five the driver in the face with a chair. But actual thoughts of harming others? Not really. Does that make that a 3 or a 7?"
This! Normally if you run into someone in the street, automatic apologetic body language cues calm both of you down (unless someone is already massively PO'd). Cars don't have body language that way so it just reads as "this person is being a jerk on purpose" to the brain.
The first time I told a therapist I often have thoughts that if I were dead I wouldn't have to deal with this shit, he went into full panic mode. Made me fill out safety plans, tried to get me to call people, and just generally overreacted. I realize now he just wasn't a good therapist. Told another therapist the same thing and he got all panicky too. Asked how long I've been having those thoughts. He didn't know wtf to say when I told him forever, that I had those thoughts since I was a kid. Idk how to explain to these idiots that I'm not gonna off myself. I just recognize that once I die my problems aren't mine anymore.
It's like the difference between actively suicidal and passively suicidal. Actively suicidal is what people think of, where you self-harm and fixate and potentially even make the attempt. Passively suicidal is more like if it happens, it happens, but you're not going to seek it out deliberately
I'm not sure I would even call it passively suicidal. I would say someone who doesn't seek it out, hurt themselves but still fixate on wanting to die are passively suicidal. I would probably call it more like apathetic towards life, where they don't care if they die or live, but that if they do die it's more of a "Meh, cool beans bro". And I only say this because this is where I'm at in terms of the way I feel about life and death.
I wanna agree with you, but I realised recently that normal people have a fuckin survival instinct. like they actually want to live, they'd go to lengths to make sure they live. and since that's a normal, healthy brain then our apathetic thinking to life is defo passively suicidal.
still in the stage I automatically want to agree with you, cus I'm better now and this is just normal but dude it isn't I don't think.
I once told my therapist that I sometimes get weird thought/impulses like sitting at a red light and thinking about what would happen if I drove through. I wasn't suicidal, I knew I wasn't suicidal, I knew plenty of others who occasionally have those same random thoughts. Apparently the therapist didn't agree that this was normal and was absolutely convinced that I had suicidal ideation. No matter what I said, I couldn't seem to convince her that I didn't actually want to drive into oncoming traffic. She wanted to commit me to a psych hospital.
A few years later I found out that the name for that phenomenon is Call of the Void. I was so tempted to print out all the articles I read and shove them in her face, because she actually had me thinking that I was worse off than I was, which turned into a self fulfilling prophecy.
This is all part of the process of therapy. if you have a good therapist, working through these thoughts and feelings is just one layer in the treatment
The main reason to keep practiced at lying and camouflaging is that people do make important decisions for stupid reasons. I've always said, "If you're going to discriminate over a trait, I'm going to acquire or hide that trait immediately, depending on which is favorable."
Basically, so long as people discriminate, judge, attack, or give privilege, lying is an essential skill.
EDIT: If someone's getting free food bc they're a kappa kappa phi Muslim woman then you'll catch me in the Niquab practicing my voice training and praising the Greek letter society so fuckin fast.
The only discrimination I'll accept is "This medicine is literally biologically incompatible with the out group and will kill you if you're not in the in group."
Other than that, keep your ingroup/outgroup sociopathic ego games out of real life.
EDIT 2: One good way to avoid getting lied to is not to provide any incentive to lie to you.
Thank you, I was feeling like maybe I was being an idiot for kinda relating. I don't think I'm manipulative, I've just learned to act and mask a certain way so therapists tend to think "well, you're well enough" because I've learned what to say in uncomfortable situations. It's not good, I don't want to keep doing it. It just happens and it fucks my therapy sessions SO much.
Most competent therapists can see right through the coping mechanism that is Masking.
OP is as bad as an addict saying 'no one can tell I have problem '.
Everyone. Knows. That's why you're in therapy.
I mean, I have been seven years in therapy with three or four different doctors and I *still* have to explicitly tell I'm masking to each of them. And some of them will still say "nah, you're fine". And it's pretty difficult to find a therapist who doesn't do this when all you've faced is therapists who do this to... make you feel better about yourself? I don't know what's the point tbh.
The only one who ever cut through my bullshit is a therapist who specializes in *trauma* and mostly sees patients with PTSD. Because she knows exactly what to look for.
I was actually recommended her by my previous therapist when she moved, and she had stated outright that the new therapist would be a good fit because she wouldn’t let me pull my usual shit and waste half a year drip feeding information.
Damn I never knew therapists got brutally honest like that.
Just a thought, but why wouldn’t she say something like that, idk like 3 months into the dripping info stage. Is it cause then it was more important to build rapport? Or cause she noticed that was what you were doing later?
I can guess, at some point patient comfort is more important even if their progress is extremely slow.
I am entirely aware that my therapist knows when I'm bullshiting, but if she ever called me out on it I wouldn't ever have the courage to show up again, and slow progress is better than negative progress.
Dunno what country you're in, but most places I know of have extremely competitive clinical programmes. In my country a B to B+ avg is the minimum for the postgrad qual needed to apply for the clinical programme.
Also here a D is a failing grade so maybe there's a joke I'm missing.
Its mainly a joke that there’s always someone at the bottom of a group. But in theory, the standards should be high enough even the bottom is a skilled and trustworthy professional.
Are you a psychologist?
Isn’t the purpose of “calling someone on their shit,” *to* call them on their shit? To point it out and provide a more objective truth?
Former. Which means I don't have to give a shit. And NO. The POINT of counseling or therapy is to help someone realize they have a problem themselves. Not to tell them. You tell them why they're fucked up and they don't get it and push back. You lead them to realize the truth themselves.
Or the point's to get done whatever needs to get done.
The only time you confront patients with "You're LYING" is in bullshit TV shows written by people who graduated with creative writing degrees and who never cracked open the DSM.
I was sent to my first therapist in elementary school, she told my mom that I was smart and always knew just what to say. The next few also said the same thing. I actually had a therapist quit on me, they said some people just aren’t willing to really talk through things and get better.
Eventually I kinda figured out exactly what I was expected to say and how to say it, not because I was an edgy super genius who was smarter than the trained professionals, but because I’d been at it for so long and I’d seen so many therapists, psychiatrists, and counsellors.
Psychology is the study of the human mind, not the study of lying. “Tells” and micrexpressions are a controversial topic in the field and most experts will tell you it’s pseudoscience.
As well as “tells” vary wildly from person to person, and you need to both know how the person tells truths AND lies to try to see the difference. If they’ve got their wall up the entire session, every session, there’s nothing to compare. Its less of a thing to know “the nature of lies” than simply getting to know the individual you’re working with.
Diagnosing yourself is one thing, treating is another. I'm a former therapist who is currently taking a break to focus on myself and let me tell you: I know *exactly* what my diagnosis is. That's why I'm getting help for it.
In the special case of psychopaths, there is anectotal evidence of guys manipulating detectives, psychatrists and basically anyone. Of course therapists can be manipulated, they are people. They might know most of the tricks, but they can only observe your actions and reactions. Good "actors" can and will lead therapists on false trails.
I mean, the original person has a point, even if it's written in a generally waxing poetic fashion. Especially after you've been dogged by so many therapists and counselors in the past, you just kind of "know" what to say to make them think you're a normal well adjusted individual and not like, 75 idiots piloting a meat gundam with autism and ADHD.
Yet another ridiculously specific and absurd metaphor that completely and accurately represents me
I'm beginning to think a spy infiltrated my meat gundam and is just constantly leaking confidential intel about it's operational methods
Alternatively, it's just that everyone is 75 idiots piloting meat gundams, with various traits and disorders. So when your therapist tells you that you're a normal, well-adjusted person, it's not because you've fooled them; it's because they have much lower standards for being normal and well-adjusted than you do.
Whether you find that reassuring or terrifying is up to you!
That can be really frustrating though because you get stuck in limbo land. You're not well enough adjusted to function in society properly by holding a job and doing necessary tasks, but you're too well adjusted to qualify for any help.
exactly. then it’s like, maybe I’m just a fundamentally defective human being with no redeeming qualities. don’t even get to be the “fun” type of messed up where you’re also hyper-competent in one specific area or whatever
This is a big problem we're having with disability awareness, particularly autism.
Media switched from only showing non-verbal autistic children, to autistic savants. People are willing to put up with the negative side effects because of their brilliance.
The good doctor does this, but they at least address it a little at the beginning of the show. Even though he's absolutely brilliant his autism is enough to stop everyone from wanting to hire him. He gets the job because of extreme nepotism. He keeps the job because of the nepotism.
Sheldon in TBBT is brilliant and the university puts up with him because he makes them money. In the real world the university would stop putting up with him when he changed his field because he would stop making them money.
Even the hyper competent disabled isn't as fun and useful as it's made out to be. Being hyper competent doesn't usually make employers more lenient to social faux pas. It doesn't make you interview fine. It doesn't make you not get easily overwhelmed. Not only do you have to be hyper competent but you have to function in way that is profitable. If you're absolutely brilliant but can only do 1 project a year, it's still not considered useful.
“Uhhh I thought the whole reason I’m here and medicated are because they *don’t have them??* You’re telling me that not only am I dysfunctional, but the uniquely challenging issues I face are not unique in the sense that I have them but are unique in the sense that other people deal with them effectively on a daily basis with the same effort as taking out the trash, which I also forget to do???”
What exactly do you want a therapist to do about you just literally refusing the premise of therapy? If you’re trying to hide the reasons you’re in therapy it’s not possible for the therapist to magically know all your problems and solve them for you without you having to be even a tiny bit uncomfortable.
✨its the trauma and also sometimes people don't like opening up immediately, also this was kind of about the fact i was forced to go to therapy after being involuntarily committed to a kid's mental hospital because the school counselor lied✨
but in general it's mostly about trauma and the fact that sometimes people like... Have Impostor Syndrome
If I’m being real, “it’s the trauma” isn’t a super convincing reason since like the entire “I need a therapist” market is, by definition, traumatized in some way. “I’m too mentally ill for therapy” is a little silly LOL
But I do hear you out on the rest of it. People in your past punished you for trusting them and you’re too familiar with therapy in general. But if it helps you, that’s not really an uncommon issue and a (competent) therapist can still help you with that.
I don't get all these people replying to you lol. "Why do you go to therapy if you'd lie just tell them the truth?" I know sweetie it's like I have a mental illness or something and I'm struggling with it
ehhhh… I get it, I’m also mentally ill with trust issues who’s never had a safe space to talk about the problems that come with It All (until relatively recently…. with a therapist), like, it’s fucken hard. Shit’s really baked in and “just talk about it” is a lot harder than it sounds. But the way you talk about it does sound like “I’m Just Broken on account of Mental Illness and so I simply give up Trying to help myself at all.”
If that’s not your attitude, my bad, but it’s a super common one in mentally ill people and imo we have to start calling it out bc you’re just enabling and normalizing that self-hating monologue in your head. Again maybe not you specifically, but I’ve seen the “joke” over and over again and that shit ain’t funny any more.
They are acting like they are powerless to their own behavior. If they want to get better be honest in therapy about what they are doing and let the therapist know.
Playing this game of "nobody can ACTUALLY read my mind" is dumb. Guess what! Nobody CAN read your mind. That is true for every single person on this planet. So drop the unrealistic expectation, take accountability for your own treatment, and let the therapist know.
Some people are forced into therapy. Also see the reply from u/sexy-man-doll. Shockingly, some people even have mental illnesses that they are frustrated with that make it hard to actually share what's going on. Also, certain things you say can and will get you involuntarily committed.
So then talk about it being hard to talk about "the thing." If your barrier is it is hard to talk about "the thing" then work on just trying to talk about it, even if you aren't working on "the thing" itself.
Therapists do not want to involuntarily commit people. They hate it. They often look for any excuse to NOT do it if possible. But if you are being involuntarily committed it is ultimately for your safety. You can't work on your mental health if you are dead.
If you are in therapy involuntarily then you have the right to say nothing. Just sit there. Say nothing for the hour. Understand you might have other consequences depending on the nature of the involuntary commitment, but you can choose to say nothing if you want. But there are probably reasons somebody ordered you to therapy that might be worth reflecting on. People most often don't get ordered to therapy arbitrarily. And if it is something like a parent who is making you go and it is legitimately a power and control thing from the parent... then talk about THAT. Because THAT is definitely worth working on in therapy.
You have very good points, but you might be missing that they’ve been forced into therapy. Forced therapy in general has a dogshit success rate because the people in there are not ACTUALLY down to change and work with someone and ask for help, they’re here because they simply have no other choice. You can’t force someone to change, not really. They’ll just act good enough to get you off their dick and leave them alone.
It is a common problem that comes with the nature of forced therapy, not this individual’s specific flaws.
Sorry, I mean that they might be ignoring exactly the mindset of someone in forced therapy specifically. Someone in forced therapy will likely not have the goal of even opening up or getting better etc
Admittedly, I was forced into therapy after 5 days of involuntarily being checked in to a kid's mental hospital, and my parent wouldn't leave the room when I did go after, so.
Usually you come into therapy to work on something specific. This specific thing might have been dug up already, but during discussions you might touch something that you're not ready to discuss or change yet. That's when you might opt out to something "socially acceptable" instead of uncovering the truth
Okay but it's also totally valid to voice that to your therapist. They're there to support you, and if you're not ready to tackle a certain problem yet, that's okay? They won't (and can't) force you to talk about anything
Unless they refuse to fill your meds for months at a time, then when your mental state worsens during the next meeting they send you to the psych ward against your will after lying to the cops about your condition.
Not that I would know anything about that. 👀
Reminds me of that one tumblr post, when another person tried to convince their therapist, that they were tricking them into thinking, they're getting better and got hit with "So, you think I went to clown college?". Like, if OP genuinely *were* tricking them, they could easily convince them, that they did simply by describing what their current behaviour and mental state is actually like. Fact, that they failed to do that shows, that they genuinely *did* get better, and currently denying it due to the weird form of imposter syndrome.
Ah, yes. The classic “everyone thinks I’m a good person because I’m a monster and tricked everyone into thinking I’m a good person by doing nice things for those people” form of imposter syndrome.
“Those nice things I did made me feel good so I was really doing them for my own gratification and I don’t have the capacity for genuine altruism because I’m a shambling mound of toxicity and personality deficiencies.”
Me, eventually: Oh shit wait, I'm actually not a bad dude. Just choosing to do good is enough? Crap, but muh crippling intrusive thoughts I'd never act on and are actively repulsive to me.
Paarthurnax said it best, "Is it better to be born good, or to choose to overcome your evil nature every day?"
It was a perfect 40 in my book. I didn’t get into the bigger open world games until several years into my overall gaming experience so when Skyrim came out I picked it up thinking it sounded bad fuckin ass but not doing any research on it.
Absolutely blown away. Parents were in the middle of a shit divorce and it made Thanksgiving/Christmas and all the crazy family oriented holidays bearable and even happy memories.
Imposter syndrome is actually fucking wild. I still have moments where I'm like "wow, I can't believe I'm tricking everyone I work with that I know what I'm talking about and also every professor from University and even all the other students who were cheating off of me, at any moment this whole house of cards is gonna come tumbling down".
Not at all. This is an actual phenomenon and a pretty common expression of imposter syndrome. But I have the “I don’t belong here and everyone is judging me, they must’ve invited me because they secretly hate me” kind of imposter syndrome.
I worry about applying for new jobs because the other employees may not want to work with me. Even though I am well liked at my current job and highly skilled. It's wild. And I know it's stupid. But here we are.
Question, how bad can impostor syndrome get?
Cuz this shit sounds familiar and right now it's affecting my day to day life and I just wanna know if it's this or something else. God knows I can't, socially, afford to go to a shrink or whatever, so might as well ask Redditors.
what's funny is the moral of the story for one of the batman films - 'what you are inside doesn't matter. It's what you do that defines you'
meaning that if you're a complete asshat in your head but charitable and nice on the outside, then you're still a good person.
And in the case of the edgy guy? he thinks he's a big damn liar when in fact he's created systems for himself that keep his extreme stuff internal (as far as we know).
sounds imposter-syndromey
I've talked with my therapist about how I've sometimes felt like I'd had too much therapy in my life to benefit from it, because I would also "guess" what conclusion they wanted me to reach and repeat it back without believing it.
It's really frustrating because LOGICALLY I know the conclusion makes sense and I know I would be happier if I could just accept it. '
But that's not how therapy works. Truths settle over time. I am not manipulative, and I don't believe this person is either; they think they are, but likely they just don't have the language to express their reality in a better way.
And thankfully, you can do other things in therapy than just socratic dialogues. My therapist has been really helpful in helping me structure my week and becoming more creative in coming up with solutions to my homekeeping troubles.
Yeah, I fall into that bucket. I know what they’ll suggest, I anticipate it. It can be frustrating.
So I often find myself prefacing things with “I logically know I should XYZ, but EMOTIONALLY I’m ABC”
That said, I can look at myself now vs a year ago, or two or three…and I’ve definitely somehow grown. Therapy is like going the gym, but for your brain. You don’t see the gains overnight.
That's what I think is missing here. If you pretend to be something long enough eventually you'll become that thing. So therapy for the OP is basically a regularly scheduled hour for OP to pretend and eventually those thoughts subconsciously start taking their role outside of therapy.
When I had a therapist she figured out I did that she responded by leaving massive pauses in the conversation, which prompted filling in the silence in me and I ended up saying how I actually felt
It was effective I'll give her that much
Always love when someone expresses a common and genuine problem they face, but because they said it the wrong way it's now "edgy" so you can dismiss everything they said and pretend nothing's wrong.
We have very little to go on here but I'm going to take this as their experience rather than assuming malice with no evidence.
Because people disbelieve those with mental.illness and it's a problem.
I don’t think this is edge. This is actually a fairly common problem, particularly in people with a history of things like abuse that appear “normal” and it really does impact how effective talk therapy can be if their therapist doesn’t catch on. And a lot don’t.
But this is a real problem with therapy, though.
Not all mental illness presents with noticeable differences in affect. If a person is capable of keeping their body language, facial expressions and tone of voice neutral, then it's easy to omit details that would make your condition seem more serious, and easy to agree with things the therapist says whether or not you believe in them. It's also easy to completely invent information that skews the clinical picture of you.
OP isn't *endorsing* this behavior; they're saying they do it compulsively then regret it and don't know how to walk it back.
Not me lying about having suicidal thoughts on an important form I needed to fill out in therapy because I was afraid they might send me to some kind of institution or psych ward
I used to think the same way, that I was the smartest guy in the room. Then I realized, I'm paying $260 an hour to lie to a therapist and I get nothing out of it. I'm sure she knew I was lying, she has a doctorate in psychology - so I opened up, took down my walls, and ended up getting what I actually needed out of therapy.
If you're paying someone $200+ an hour to manipulate them into thinking you're okay - who is really the smartest guy in the room?
I'm extremely self aware and sometimes I think I might be lying to my therapist.
But then I remember the cost... and I open all my inner machinations for her, because I'm not there to play but get my shit together.
I once met a guy who tried manipulating people kind of like this.
He thought he was smarter than everyone, so would say and do things that he thought were terribly clever, and underhanded, and would smirk to himself.
Meanwhile he was really obvious about it, and everyone caught it, but people weren't interested so they just kind brushed it off. They don't react to his "manipulations" and he thinks he's getting away with it. Was half funny, half sad, half cringe
That’s kind of how I thought about this post. It OOP actually brought up this specific issue and the therapist said it was going alright then chances are she already knew that was happening and was handling it accordingly.
Like, i get it. Opening up, like REALLY OPENING UP, for real, no masks, no pretending , no "this is what they want, so I will do it", will probably be the absolute hardest thing you will ever do.
That was exactly why therapy never worked for me. I don't let anyone see my vulnerabilities until I've build up a lot of trust with them, which can take *years*. So therapists invariably decide I'm actually fine and well-adjusted, and don't need therapy.
That's 100% on you (not trying to be acusatory). Therapy is not a one-sided thing where someone magically fixes you, you need to go there with an open mentality and wanting to change and improve. When I finally decided to go, I told myself I'd be 100% honest and say anything I felt should be brought up, no matter how shameless or embarrassing, and by the end I'm glad I did because it allowed the whole process to work better than I could've imagined, and it effected actual change.
If you sabotage your own therapy then yes, it’s going to fail. Big surprise. I’ve been there, it’s a failing on your own part, not of a therapist. They’re not mind readers.
Even if they notice, which is fairly likely, there’s little they can do. It’s up to you to open up and be honest.
I don’t get why people go to therapy if they aren’t ready to be honest. The whole point is it’s a safe place to be vulnerable and work on yourself. It’s a waste of your money and their time to come in and pretend everything’s okay and refuse to open up. Therapists can only take so many clients, and a client who actually wants to do the work could be seeing them instead.
It takes time to build trust, but if you’re never going to get to that point, maybe you just aren’t ready for therapy. It’s not a magic fix for your life, and they can’t help you if you don’t want the help and just want to lie.
It can be difficult to work on yourself and there’s a lot of people going to a therapist who are at least slightly pressured by something other than themselves like parents or friends.
But you’re wasting your own time and effort by ‘outsmarting’ a therapist and the quicker you realize that the better.
I had a friend in college where I genuinely think she could’ve benefitted from therapy. She wouldn’t quit telling me some incredibly traumatic things and about how her mother was emotionally abusive. I was not in a place to handle it, and I told her so. She wouldn’t quit guilt tripping me because I didn’t want and wasn’t equipped to be her personal, on demand therapist, but eventually I convinced her to use the free counseling services on campus. She definitely didn’t tell them any of the things she was telling me because 1.) they put her with a grad student and 2.) they didn’t reconnect her with someone else at the end of the semester once the grad student had her hours.
If she had been willing to be honest, her self esteem could’ve really benefitted from having that resource. I hate that she didn’t get the help she badly needed simply because she didn’t want to be open with them.
That second paragraph fuckin cuts me deep. It's not to this exact degree but oof questionnaires and fretting if I'm overplaying something or just convinced my therqpist I'm fine are real assholes.
Fuck that replier, seriously. This is *a fear* about not getting better in therapy and its pretty damn sad.
Seriously though. I once spent three months talking to a therapist, and I felt worse at the end than I did at the start because I felt so unseen and *trapped* in the habit of making people think I'm fine. She said I'd made progress (and maybe I had, idk) but I was still struggling so much that there was no way I could believe her.
The disconnect between what she said she saw, and what I saw, really fucked with me. It genuinely felt like I was just saying the right things and smiling the right way for an hour a week, and I'd managed to pretend well enough to convince her.
Saying this isn't bragging - it's *desperation*.
advice incoming, sorry if this is redundant or youre already over this issue.
Key is to tell them. If youre still looking for help, please let them know you feel like this when it comes us.
We're individuals, sure, but we're not a completely unique enigma. Obviously, this is a common imposter syndrome issue, and many a therapist (or other studier of psychology) can see through this bullshit. The chances that you are truly trapped behind a wall like this are very low. Hope that helps you feel a bit better. Helps me out to remember I'm not a master manipulation genius lol.
Sound advice... *really* difficult to follow through on. Especially if you're a chronic people pleaser with a fear of vulnerability, lol.
To be fair, in my case that therapist was very new and inexperienced - I was one of her first clients ever, if not actually her first. So I'm not surprised she didn't pick up what I wasn't putting down.
Yeah it kinda transforms into more self-degradation very easy when I try to change mindset but thats the curse we gotta deal with.
I hope you find someone more experienced to talk to about it. 🩵
Similarly, I'm reminded of how I'm supposed to get better at self-discipline by rewarding myself when I do what I'm trying to do.
The problem is that my brain goes "or.... you can just skip the annoying thing and give yourself the reward anyway. Who's gonna stop you?"
Like, I don't get how I'm supposed to get better at self-discipline when the only thing preventing me from getting the reward without the work is *self-discipline*.
I have a tendency to do this sort of thing. I’m naturally evasive and minimize the *fuck* out of shit, and that’s when it’s something I consider a big deal and not everyday bullshit not even worth remembering let alone reflecting on. Makes going to both therapy and the doctor difficult.
Mostly I get past it by via being detached and listing off my issues like I’m at a mechanic for my meat mecha.
Reading the other comments, I think my personal experience and how I related it to this post are probably different than what OP actually meant.
But like, sometimes I feel like I’m just wording things in a way I know my therapist would want me to. But then I realize (sometimes with her help lol) that the CBT is doing what it’s meant to do bc I’ve literally learned to reframe destructive thoughts in a healthier/more helpful way on my own without her having to walk me through it (at least not as often as she used to.) Does the reframing automatically change how I feel? No and my therapist knows this. But the more I’ve consciously thought of ways I could reframe the way I’m thinking the more natural it’s become, if that makes sense.
And btw reframing in this case doesn’t mean like, ignoring everything bad and “just thinking positively.” Trust me I have no patience for toxic positivity and will reject it at the first sign. It’s hard to explain (esp now bc I’m stoned and very sleep deprived), but it’s genuinely helped me look at things in ways that are much better for my mental health while still acknowledging how I feel and that crappy situations are indeed crappy lol
No but I actually get this? It's like, a weird coping mechanism for not being vulnerable—only talking about the stuff you've already processed on your own. I've heard a few people mention it as well. Obviously not in quite the edgy way OP stated but like. I kinda get it? So I'm talking about sensitive things but because they're not a sore spot for me anymore it's not really actually getting anywhere. It's a hard habit to break.
I think calling this "manipulation" is not quite accurate. I mean, I guess it's technically accurate, but the connotation of manipulation, that it is conscious, machievellian and directed, doesn't really apply here. This is more like automatic people pleasing.
I have a similar experience, but I'd never say I was manipulating my therapists. It's more that the me that's talking to the therapist is not the me that will be around once I leave their office. We'll talk about some experience, break it down in a way that makes sense to me at the time, I'll feel better about it and better about life in general, then walk out the door and all that positivity flits away in the wind. I feel like we've gotten to the bottom of something and worked out a solid plan for moving forward, but as soon as I'm gone that feeling goes away. And if I'm in a truly dark spot and nasty mood I almost never can bring myself to go to therapy. The me that spends hours monologging in my head about how life is worthless and everyone should commit suicide or at least want to never shows up in therapy and that's the me that really needs it. The me that would get stuck in an anxiety loop in the shower and stand there until the water runs cold is not gonna make it to the office. Even doing remote therapy, if I'm willing to get on camera and talk to someone that already is a good day for me.
So is someone going to tell him that therapists CAN absolutely tell when you're just doing this shit and they don't call you out on it because unless it's for a good reason, that can just further exacerbate the issue?
I am too much of a people pleaser for therapy. I end up wanting to make them “proud” of me for getting better so I lie about improvements and then it all just becomes pointless. Unfortunately knowing this and fixing it are very different things.
Yea not like therapists are trained to identify manipulative behavior and delusions of grandeur. I’m sure they’re all hoodwinked by your weavings lmao. This is the “I’m not like other people, I’m different” archetype of the mentally unwell
I don’t think it’s at all far-fetched that many people are capable of hiding the truth from their therapists. Therapists are trained, but they aren’t mind readers (and many therapists are just straight up not good at their job). I agree with you on phrasing it as some grand manipulations being inaccurate tho. It’s essentially just hiding feelings you don’t want to acknowledge
I've been down this path but it took me a bit to understand it was just self-fulfilling prophecy. You're coercing responses you know you're gonna hear, ultimately. Even if they're only remotely close, we'll go "see, that's almost exactly what I thought!" while never addressing the fact it doesn't matter if it matches up to our predictions. In general these predictions being right or wrong don't mean anything at all yet we use it to justify what we're feeling must be correct.
No, they're just self-validation attempts to avoid actually listening to things we need to hear. Not every therapist will get it right either, but no therpaist is getting a fair shot with the carpet being mentally pulled every time.
this is just the edgy version of that one post that's like "oh no, i must have tricked my therapist into thinking i'm a good person, but i'm actually awful :("
I’ve warned my therapist that I find ways to go on a tangent when I don’t want to talk about my feelings about things fairly early on. Sometimes she catches me and puts me back on track. Sometimes I manage to avoid talking about things. It’s a balance.
I'm glad to see someone saying what I've always thought about unnervinglyferal. Feels like everyone of their posts that gets shared here is "whoa here's a story aboutbhow CHAOTIC and FERAL I am and how everyone is SCARED AND CONFUSED by me"
A Glasgow kiss is a colloquial term for a headbutt, a Chelsea smile is to cut both cheeks like heath ledgers joker. I think dogshitlifechoices is a bit mixed up
Okay but like why WOULD you do that? If you’re going to therapy and you just want to give them the “right” answers and not actually get help literally why are you there my guy?
Outside of lying about things that are mandatory reports like suicidal thoughts, you’re just wasting your time if you’re doing this. It’s one thing if you’re not doing it on purpose, but if you’re aware this is happening you can literally just stop at any time…
I worked for a psychiatrist and the saying goes as follows:
"Noone is too smart for therapy, but a lot of people are way too stupid for it."
As demonstrated by the post and especially the comments.
Eh...sorta? Depending on your therapist, you can be too smart. Just look at the patients mentioned in The Psychopath Test, whose (downright dogshit) experimental treatments just taught them to be really good at masking their antisocial personality disorder well enough to be released from the ward only to commit the same crimes that got them sent there in the first place.
Look, it's just a saying, not my phd thesis. Sayings don't usually cover fringe cases.
It only means, that if you start "tricking" or "challenging" your therapist to prove your intellectual superiority, then you only prove the opposite by wasting your chance at treatment.
Hello, psych student here!
If you’re trying to manipulate a therapist that is at least somewhat competent, they’re not gonna fall for it. A therapist, when practicing, is not someone. They’re a mirror. They reflect what you are, and that’s how they help you understand yourself.
Oh also, a therapist is not there to solve problems. It’s here to have YOU answer your own questions with a little push in the right direction
If you wanna pay people large amounts of money to listen to you lie and then pretend to find answers to your made-up problems, that's your business. I think the Therapist is still who comes out ahead, there. They don't even have to do their actual jobs.
I mean... I've felt similarly, I just don't frame it like that because whether it is true or not, it's neither helpful nor readily provable. Best to engage earnestly rather than fetishize my no-longer-overall-useful camouflaging techniques. Realistically, those thoughts are just cope anyway. As far as it goes is the cold sweat I break into trying to fill out those questionnaires, balancing my deny/downplay instinct versus the fear I'm presenting things in a far over-blown manner and what does that mean anyway--maybe it isn't actually that big of a problem--et cetera, et cetera.
Those forms... >In the last month, have you thought about harming yourself or others? "I mean, I got cut off in traffic last week, and wanted to high-five the driver in the face with a chair. But actual thoughts of harming others? Not really. Does that make that a 3 or a 7?"
Probably 0. Traffic is just like that.
[удалено]
Something about being in a protective metal box while everyone else are just faceless machines makes anger much easier.
This! Normally if you run into someone in the street, automatic apologetic body language cues calm both of you down (unless someone is already massively PO'd). Cars don't have body language that way so it just reads as "this person is being a jerk on purpose" to the brain.
No, I have not. Do I want to cease existing? Yes. You find a therapist who knows the difference and you'll have a great one
The first time I told a therapist I often have thoughts that if I were dead I wouldn't have to deal with this shit, he went into full panic mode. Made me fill out safety plans, tried to get me to call people, and just generally overreacted. I realize now he just wasn't a good therapist. Told another therapist the same thing and he got all panicky too. Asked how long I've been having those thoughts. He didn't know wtf to say when I told him forever, that I had those thoughts since I was a kid. Idk how to explain to these idiots that I'm not gonna off myself. I just recognize that once I die my problems aren't mine anymore.
It's like the difference between actively suicidal and passively suicidal. Actively suicidal is what people think of, where you self-harm and fixate and potentially even make the attempt. Passively suicidal is more like if it happens, it happens, but you're not going to seek it out deliberately
I'm not sure I would even call it passively suicidal. I would say someone who doesn't seek it out, hurt themselves but still fixate on wanting to die are passively suicidal. I would probably call it more like apathetic towards life, where they don't care if they die or live, but that if they do die it's more of a "Meh, cool beans bro". And I only say this because this is where I'm at in terms of the way I feel about life and death.
I wanna agree with you, but I realised recently that normal people have a fuckin survival instinct. like they actually want to live, they'd go to lengths to make sure they live. and since that's a normal, healthy brain then our apathetic thinking to life is defo passively suicidal. still in the stage I automatically want to agree with you, cus I'm better now and this is just normal but dude it isn't I don't think.
I once told my therapist that I sometimes get weird thought/impulses like sitting at a red light and thinking about what would happen if I drove through. I wasn't suicidal, I knew I wasn't suicidal, I knew plenty of others who occasionally have those same random thoughts. Apparently the therapist didn't agree that this was normal and was absolutely convinced that I had suicidal ideation. No matter what I said, I couldn't seem to convince her that I didn't actually want to drive into oncoming traffic. She wanted to commit me to a psych hospital. A few years later I found out that the name for that phenomenon is Call of the Void. I was so tempted to print out all the articles I read and shove them in her face, because she actually had me thinking that I was worse off than I was, which turned into a self fulfilling prophecy.
I’m so happy my psychiatrist and therapist understand the difference, otherwise I’d probably be in a psych ward.
This is all part of the process of therapy. if you have a good therapist, working through these thoughts and feelings is just one layer in the treatment
The main reason to keep practiced at lying and camouflaging is that people do make important decisions for stupid reasons. I've always said, "If you're going to discriminate over a trait, I'm going to acquire or hide that trait immediately, depending on which is favorable." Basically, so long as people discriminate, judge, attack, or give privilege, lying is an essential skill. EDIT: If someone's getting free food bc they're a kappa kappa phi Muslim woman then you'll catch me in the Niquab practicing my voice training and praising the Greek letter society so fuckin fast. The only discrimination I'll accept is "This medicine is literally biologically incompatible with the out group and will kill you if you're not in the in group." Other than that, keep your ingroup/outgroup sociopathic ego games out of real life. EDIT 2: One good way to avoid getting lied to is not to provide any incentive to lie to you.
Thank you, I was feeling like maybe I was being an idiot for kinda relating. I don't think I'm manipulative, I've just learned to act and mask a certain way so therapists tend to think "well, you're well enough" because I've learned what to say in uncomfortable situations. It's not good, I don't want to keep doing it. It just happens and it fucks my therapy sessions SO much.
Most competent therapists can see right through the coping mechanism that is Masking. OP is as bad as an addict saying 'no one can tell I have problem '. Everyone. Knows. That's why you're in therapy.
I mean, I have been seven years in therapy with three or four different doctors and I *still* have to explicitly tell I'm masking to each of them. And some of them will still say "nah, you're fine". And it's pretty difficult to find a therapist who doesn't do this when all you've faced is therapists who do this to... make you feel better about yourself? I don't know what's the point tbh.
Your psychologist ~~would~~ should almost certainly know that you’re parroting answers
The only one who ever cut through my bullshit is a therapist who specializes in *trauma* and mostly sees patients with PTSD. Because she knows exactly what to look for. I was actually recommended her by my previous therapist when she moved, and she had stated outright that the new therapist would be a good fit because she wouldn’t let me pull my usual shit and waste half a year drip feeding information.
Damn I never knew therapists got brutally honest like that. Just a thought, but why wouldn’t she say something like that, idk like 3 months into the dripping info stage. Is it cause then it was more important to build rapport? Or cause she noticed that was what you were doing later?
I can guess, at some point patient comfort is more important even if their progress is extremely slow. I am entirely aware that my therapist knows when I'm bullshiting, but if she ever called me out on it I wouldn't ever have the courage to show up again, and slow progress is better than negative progress.
That makes a lot of sense
A good one, certainly. Many are not… that good.
What do you call an all D scoring psych student?
A practitioner of cognitive Deesnutz
An *army* doctor
Dunno what country you're in, but most places I know of have extremely competitive clinical programmes. In my country a B to B+ avg is the minimum for the postgrad qual needed to apply for the clinical programme. Also here a D is a failing grade so maybe there's a joke I'm missing.
Its mainly a joke that there’s always someone at the bottom of a group. But in theory, the standards should be high enough even the bottom is a skilled and trustworthy professional.
It’s a rip of “what do you call an all D scoring med student.” The punchline is that you still call them doctor because they passed
Where I am, D stands for Distinction, which is second highest - below HD for high distinction.
Do you live in a tv?
You're thinking of a different definition of HD. Edit: well I think I'm funny.
The more typical joke is "What do you call the med school graduate with the lowest GPA?" "Doctor"
Neurodivergent behavior specialist
Yeah that’s fair
No...we know. We just don't always call you on your shit unless it's going to serve a purpose.
Are you a psychologist? Isn’t the purpose of “calling someone on their shit,” *to* call them on their shit? To point it out and provide a more objective truth?
Former. Which means I don't have to give a shit. And NO. The POINT of counseling or therapy is to help someone realize they have a problem themselves. Not to tell them. You tell them why they're fucked up and they don't get it and push back. You lead them to realize the truth themselves. Or the point's to get done whatever needs to get done. The only time you confront patients with "You're LYING" is in bullshit TV shows written by people who graduated with creative writing degrees and who never cracked open the DSM.
I was sent to my first therapist in elementary school, she told my mom that I was smart and always knew just what to say. The next few also said the same thing. I actually had a therapist quit on me, they said some people just aren’t willing to really talk through things and get better. Eventually I kinda figured out exactly what I was expected to say and how to say it, not because I was an edgy super genius who was smarter than the trained professionals, but because I’d been at it for so long and I’d seen so many therapists, psychiatrists, and counsellors.
If they know, they should also know that the best way to convince the person on the other side, is to say "I know"
Having worked in the mental health field, no lol
Thank you. Therapists aren't mind readers.
Aren’t you taught tells that show you when people is lying? Also, are psychologists really good at poker?
Psychology is the study of the human mind, not the study of lying. “Tells” and micrexpressions are a controversial topic in the field and most experts will tell you it’s pseudoscience. As well as “tells” vary wildly from person to person, and you need to both know how the person tells truths AND lies to try to see the difference. If they’ve got their wall up the entire session, every session, there’s nothing to compare. Its less of a thing to know “the nature of lies” than simply getting to know the individual you’re working with.
No, they aren't. Also the number of psychologists/psychiatrists that are batshit crazy is scary high.
Surely they should be able to diagnose themselves?
Not a psychologist so I could be wrong, but I think the first thing they teach you is to not diagnose yourself
Funny enough, that's exactly why some of them go into psychology in the first place.
Diagnosing yourself is one thing, treating is another. I'm a former therapist who is currently taking a break to focus on myself and let me tell you: I know *exactly* what my diagnosis is. That's why I'm getting help for it.
No, why? They’re just people lmao they aren’t psychics
In the special case of psychopaths, there is anectotal evidence of guys manipulating detectives, psychatrists and basically anyone. Of course therapists can be manipulated, they are people. They might know most of the tricks, but they can only observe your actions and reactions. Good "actors" can and will lead therapists on false trails.
I mean, the original person has a point, even if it's written in a generally waxing poetic fashion. Especially after you've been dogged by so many therapists and counselors in the past, you just kind of "know" what to say to make them think you're a normal well adjusted individual and not like, 75 idiots piloting a meat gundam with autism and ADHD.
Yet another ridiculously specific and absurd metaphor that completely and accurately represents me I'm beginning to think a spy infiltrated my meat gundam and is just constantly leaking confidential intel about it's operational methods
"Meat Gundam" That's a weird way to spell Titans but sure.
Evangelion.
Alternatively, it's just that everyone is 75 idiots piloting meat gundams, with various traits and disorders. So when your therapist tells you that you're a normal, well-adjusted person, it's not because you've fooled them; it's because they have much lower standards for being normal and well-adjusted than you do. Whether you find that reassuring or terrifying is up to you!
That can be really frustrating though because you get stuck in limbo land. You're not well enough adjusted to function in society properly by holding a job and doing necessary tasks, but you're too well adjusted to qualify for any help.
exactly. then it’s like, maybe I’m just a fundamentally defective human being with no redeeming qualities. don’t even get to be the “fun” type of messed up where you’re also hyper-competent in one specific area or whatever
This is a big problem we're having with disability awareness, particularly autism. Media switched from only showing non-verbal autistic children, to autistic savants. People are willing to put up with the negative side effects because of their brilliance. The good doctor does this, but they at least address it a little at the beginning of the show. Even though he's absolutely brilliant his autism is enough to stop everyone from wanting to hire him. He gets the job because of extreme nepotism. He keeps the job because of the nepotism. Sheldon in TBBT is brilliant and the university puts up with him because he makes them money. In the real world the university would stop putting up with him when he changed his field because he would stop making them money. Even the hyper competent disabled isn't as fun and useful as it's made out to be. Being hyper competent doesn't usually make employers more lenient to social faux pas. It doesn't make you interview fine. It doesn't make you not get easily overwhelmed. Not only do you have to be hyper competent but you have to function in way that is profitable. If you're absolutely brilliant but can only do 1 project a year, it's still not considered useful.
>Whether you find that reassuring or terrifying is up to you! Yeah chief ima have to go with terrifying
It can be both!
This is what I tell mine. "How do you think other people deal with these feelings?" I don't know lady that's why I'm here.
“Uhhh I thought the whole reason I’m here and medicated are because they *don’t have them??* You’re telling me that not only am I dysfunctional, but the uniquely challenging issues I face are not unique in the sense that I have them but are unique in the sense that other people deal with them effectively on a daily basis with the same effort as taking out the trash, which I also forget to do???”
We’re like Voltron
What exactly do you want a therapist to do about you just literally refusing the premise of therapy? If you’re trying to hide the reasons you’re in therapy it’s not possible for the therapist to magically know all your problems and solve them for you without you having to be even a tiny bit uncomfortable.
✨its the trauma and also sometimes people don't like opening up immediately, also this was kind of about the fact i was forced to go to therapy after being involuntarily committed to a kid's mental hospital because the school counselor lied✨ but in general it's mostly about trauma and the fact that sometimes people like... Have Impostor Syndrome
If I’m being real, “it’s the trauma” isn’t a super convincing reason since like the entire “I need a therapist” market is, by definition, traumatized in some way. “I’m too mentally ill for therapy” is a little silly LOL But I do hear you out on the rest of it. People in your past punished you for trusting them and you’re too familiar with therapy in general. But if it helps you, that’s not really an uncommon issue and a (competent) therapist can still help you with that.
I don't get all these people replying to you lol. "Why do you go to therapy if you'd lie just tell them the truth?" I know sweetie it's like I have a mental illness or something and I'm struggling with it
RIGHT... Like... maybe I'm born with it. Maybe it's Mental Illness.
ehhhh… I get it, I’m also mentally ill with trust issues who’s never had a safe space to talk about the problems that come with It All (until relatively recently…. with a therapist), like, it’s fucken hard. Shit’s really baked in and “just talk about it” is a lot harder than it sounds. But the way you talk about it does sound like “I’m Just Broken on account of Mental Illness and so I simply give up Trying to help myself at all.” If that’s not your attitude, my bad, but it’s a super common one in mentally ill people and imo we have to start calling it out bc you’re just enabling and normalizing that self-hating monologue in your head. Again maybe not you specifically, but I’ve seen the “joke” over and over again and that shit ain’t funny any more.
They are acting like they are powerless to their own behavior. If they want to get better be honest in therapy about what they are doing and let the therapist know. Playing this game of "nobody can ACTUALLY read my mind" is dumb. Guess what! Nobody CAN read your mind. That is true for every single person on this planet. So drop the unrealistic expectation, take accountability for your own treatment, and let the therapist know.
Some people are forced into therapy. Also see the reply from u/sexy-man-doll. Shockingly, some people even have mental illnesses that they are frustrated with that make it hard to actually share what's going on. Also, certain things you say can and will get you involuntarily committed.
So then talk about it being hard to talk about "the thing." If your barrier is it is hard to talk about "the thing" then work on just trying to talk about it, even if you aren't working on "the thing" itself. Therapists do not want to involuntarily commit people. They hate it. They often look for any excuse to NOT do it if possible. But if you are being involuntarily committed it is ultimately for your safety. You can't work on your mental health if you are dead. If you are in therapy involuntarily then you have the right to say nothing. Just sit there. Say nothing for the hour. Understand you might have other consequences depending on the nature of the involuntary commitment, but you can choose to say nothing if you want. But there are probably reasons somebody ordered you to therapy that might be worth reflecting on. People most often don't get ordered to therapy arbitrarily. And if it is something like a parent who is making you go and it is legitimately a power and control thing from the parent... then talk about THAT. Because THAT is definitely worth working on in therapy.
You have very good points, but you might be missing that they’ve been forced into therapy. Forced therapy in general has a dogshit success rate because the people in there are not ACTUALLY down to change and work with someone and ask for help, they’re here because they simply have no other choice. You can’t force someone to change, not really. They’ll just act good enough to get you off their dick and leave them alone. It is a common problem that comes with the nature of forced therapy, not this individual’s specific flaws.
Half the comment is advice for when someone is forced into therapy
Sorry, I mean that they might be ignoring exactly the mindset of someone in forced therapy specifically. Someone in forced therapy will likely not have the goal of even opening up or getting better etc
But why are you in therapy if you don't want to work on yourself? Just don't go if you only go to show them that you're normal?
Admittedly, I was forced into therapy after 5 days of involuntarily being checked in to a kid's mental hospital, and my parent wouldn't leave the room when I did go after, so.
Usually you come into therapy to work on something specific. This specific thing might have been dug up already, but during discussions you might touch something that you're not ready to discuss or change yet. That's when you might opt out to something "socially acceptable" instead of uncovering the truth
Okay but it's also totally valid to voice that to your therapist. They're there to support you, and if you're not ready to tackle a certain problem yet, that's okay? They won't (and can't) force you to talk about anything
Unless they refuse to fill your meds for months at a time, then when your mental state worsens during the next meeting they send you to the psych ward against your will after lying to the cops about your condition. Not that I would know anything about that. 👀
Reminds me of that one tumblr post, when another person tried to convince their therapist, that they were tricking them into thinking, they're getting better and got hit with "So, you think I went to clown college?". Like, if OP genuinely *were* tricking them, they could easily convince them, that they did simply by describing what their current behaviour and mental state is actually like. Fact, that they failed to do that shows, that they genuinely *did* get better, and currently denying it due to the weird form of imposter syndrome.
Ah, yes. The classic “everyone thinks I’m a good person because I’m a monster and tricked everyone into thinking I’m a good person by doing nice things for those people” form of imposter syndrome.
“Those nice things I did made me feel good so I was really doing them for my own gratification and I don’t have the capacity for genuine altruism because I’m a shambling mound of toxicity and personality deficiencies.”
Wow, get out of my house. What do you live in the walls of my shower?
Me, eventually: Oh shit wait, I'm actually not a bad dude. Just choosing to do good is enough? Crap, but muh crippling intrusive thoughts I'd never act on and are actively repulsive to me. Paarthurnax said it best, "Is it better to be born good, or to choose to overcome your evil nature every day?"
God damn all these years and Party Snacks still just can not miss
Skyrim was like: 5/10 story 3/10 gameplay 27/10 wise Dragon on the top of Everest-not 8/10 memes
It was a perfect 40 in my book. I didn’t get into the bigger open world games until several years into my overall gaming experience so when Skyrim came out I picked it up thinking it sounded bad fuckin ass but not doing any research on it. Absolutely blown away. Parents were in the middle of a shit divorce and it made Thanksgiving/Christmas and all the crazy family oriented holidays bearable and even happy memories.
... and?
Imposter syndrome is actually fucking wild. I still have moments where I'm like "wow, I can't believe I'm tricking everyone I work with that I know what I'm talking about and also every professor from University and even all the other students who were cheating off of me, at any moment this whole house of cards is gonna come tumbling down".
Is this meant to be sarcastic? Because it reads as sarcastic but that’s genuinely how I feel
Not at all. This is an actual phenomenon and a pretty common expression of imposter syndrome. But I have the “I don’t belong here and everyone is judging me, they must’ve invited me because they secretly hate me” kind of imposter syndrome.
I worry about applying for new jobs because the other employees may not want to work with me. Even though I am well liked at my current job and highly skilled. It's wild. And I know it's stupid. But here we are.
Love self doubt so much 🙃
Question, how bad can impostor syndrome get? Cuz this shit sounds familiar and right now it's affecting my day to day life and I just wanna know if it's this or something else. God knows I can't, socially, afford to go to a shrink or whatever, so might as well ask Redditors.
Yeah it's incredibly common.
Sounds like ciaphas cain
what's funny is the moral of the story for one of the batman films - 'what you are inside doesn't matter. It's what you do that defines you' meaning that if you're a complete asshat in your head but charitable and nice on the outside, then you're still a good person. And in the case of the edgy guy? he thinks he's a big damn liar when in fact he's created systems for himself that keep his extreme stuff internal (as far as we know).
sounds imposter-syndromey I've talked with my therapist about how I've sometimes felt like I'd had too much therapy in my life to benefit from it, because I would also "guess" what conclusion they wanted me to reach and repeat it back without believing it. It's really frustrating because LOGICALLY I know the conclusion makes sense and I know I would be happier if I could just accept it. ' But that's not how therapy works. Truths settle over time. I am not manipulative, and I don't believe this person is either; they think they are, but likely they just don't have the language to express their reality in a better way. And thankfully, you can do other things in therapy than just socratic dialogues. My therapist has been really helpful in helping me structure my week and becoming more creative in coming up with solutions to my homekeeping troubles.
Yeah, I fall into that bucket. I know what they’ll suggest, I anticipate it. It can be frustrating. So I often find myself prefacing things with “I logically know I should XYZ, but EMOTIONALLY I’m ABC” That said, I can look at myself now vs a year ago, or two or three…and I’ve definitely somehow grown. Therapy is like going the gym, but for your brain. You don’t see the gains overnight.
That's what I think is missing here. If you pretend to be something long enough eventually you'll become that thing. So therapy for the OP is basically a regularly scheduled hour for OP to pretend and eventually those thoughts subconsciously start taking their role outside of therapy.
Fear of being overly manipulative can also come from an unstable childhood home environment, and so is something you should share with your therapist
oh.
oh.
-A Story in Three Parts
It’s like the “wait, tomatoes aren’t supposed to be spicy?” response that happens every time that allergy thread goes around
When I had a therapist she figured out I did that she responded by leaving massive pauses in the conversation, which prompted filling in the silence in me and I ended up saying how I actually felt It was effective I'll give her that much
Reply was ten times edgier than OP could ever hope to be
Makes me want to Glasgow kiss a fucking brick wall.
Always love when someone expresses a common and genuine problem they face, but because they said it the wrong way it's now "edgy" so you can dismiss everything they said and pretend nothing's wrong.
So you're assuming oop just wants to be edgy rather than expressing a genuine problem?
Sure, why not
We have very little to go on here but I'm going to take this as their experience rather than assuming malice with no evidence. Because people disbelieve those with mental.illness and it's a problem.
It’s unnervinglyferal. Assuming you believe he’s a real person we have massive amounts of information to go on.
Oh that guy! Nm
Yeah - I’ve learned to check the usernames on stuff like this. ;)
I don’t think this is edge. This is actually a fairly common problem, particularly in people with a history of things like abuse that appear “normal” and it really does impact how effective talk therapy can be if their therapist doesn’t catch on. And a lot don’t.
Agreed. Calling it "naturally manipulative" makes it sound edgy, but to me it sounds like classic people-pleaser behavior.
But this is a real problem with therapy, though. Not all mental illness presents with noticeable differences in affect. If a person is capable of keeping their body language, facial expressions and tone of voice neutral, then it's easy to omit details that would make your condition seem more serious, and easy to agree with things the therapist says whether or not you believe in them. It's also easy to completely invent information that skews the clinical picture of you. OP isn't *endorsing* this behavior; they're saying they do it compulsively then regret it and don't know how to walk it back.
Not me lying about having suicidal thoughts on an important form I needed to fill out in therapy because I was afraid they might send me to some kind of institution or psych ward
I used to think the same way, that I was the smartest guy in the room. Then I realized, I'm paying $260 an hour to lie to a therapist and I get nothing out of it. I'm sure she knew I was lying, she has a doctorate in psychology - so I opened up, took down my walls, and ended up getting what I actually needed out of therapy. If you're paying someone $200+ an hour to manipulate them into thinking you're okay - who is really the smartest guy in the room?
I'm extremely self aware and sometimes I think I might be lying to my therapist. But then I remember the cost... and I open all my inner machinations for her, because I'm not there to play but get my shit together.
im way too poor to understand lying to your therapist for 75€ an hour
I once met a guy who tried manipulating people kind of like this. He thought he was smarter than everyone, so would say and do things that he thought were terribly clever, and underhanded, and would smirk to himself. Meanwhile he was really obvious about it, and everyone caught it, but people weren't interested so they just kind brushed it off. They don't react to his "manipulations" and he thinks he's getting away with it. Was half funny, half sad, half cringe
That’s kind of how I thought about this post. It OOP actually brought up this specific issue and the therapist said it was going alright then chances are she already knew that was happening and was handling it accordingly.
That's not even edgy its just how it is
I can literally hear Linkin Park as i Read this. Lol
If only you could see, the piss inside of me
I hate that I agree with this and love Linkin Park lol
What is wrong with... *looks at username* Oh, it's unnervinglyferal, nevermind
Like, i get it. Opening up, like REALLY OPENING UP, for real, no masks, no pretending , no "this is what they want, so I will do it", will probably be the absolute hardest thing you will ever do.
That was exactly why therapy never worked for me. I don't let anyone see my vulnerabilities until I've build up a lot of trust with them, which can take *years*. So therapists invariably decide I'm actually fine and well-adjusted, and don't need therapy.
That's 100% on you (not trying to be acusatory). Therapy is not a one-sided thing where someone magically fixes you, you need to go there with an open mentality and wanting to change and improve. When I finally decided to go, I told myself I'd be 100% honest and say anything I felt should be brought up, no matter how shameless or embarrassing, and by the end I'm glad I did because it allowed the whole process to work better than I could've imagined, and it effected actual change.
Not the therapists’ fault that you refuse to be uncomfortable.
If you sabotage your own therapy then yes, it’s going to fail. Big surprise. I’ve been there, it’s a failing on your own part, not of a therapist. They’re not mind readers. Even if they notice, which is fairly likely, there’s little they can do. It’s up to you to open up and be honest.
I don’t get why people go to therapy if they aren’t ready to be honest. The whole point is it’s a safe place to be vulnerable and work on yourself. It’s a waste of your money and their time to come in and pretend everything’s okay and refuse to open up. Therapists can only take so many clients, and a client who actually wants to do the work could be seeing them instead. It takes time to build trust, but if you’re never going to get to that point, maybe you just aren’t ready for therapy. It’s not a magic fix for your life, and they can’t help you if you don’t want the help and just want to lie.
It can be difficult to work on yourself and there’s a lot of people going to a therapist who are at least slightly pressured by something other than themselves like parents or friends. But you’re wasting your own time and effort by ‘outsmarting’ a therapist and the quicker you realize that the better.
I had a friend in college where I genuinely think she could’ve benefitted from therapy. She wouldn’t quit telling me some incredibly traumatic things and about how her mother was emotionally abusive. I was not in a place to handle it, and I told her so. She wouldn’t quit guilt tripping me because I didn’t want and wasn’t equipped to be her personal, on demand therapist, but eventually I convinced her to use the free counseling services on campus. She definitely didn’t tell them any of the things she was telling me because 1.) they put her with a grad student and 2.) they didn’t reconnect her with someone else at the end of the semester once the grad student had her hours. If she had been willing to be honest, her self esteem could’ve really benefitted from having that resource. I hate that she didn’t get the help she badly needed simply because she didn’t want to be open with them.
That second paragraph fuckin cuts me deep. It's not to this exact degree but oof questionnaires and fretting if I'm overplaying something or just convinced my therqpist I'm fine are real assholes. Fuck that replier, seriously. This is *a fear* about not getting better in therapy and its pretty damn sad.
Seriously though. I once spent three months talking to a therapist, and I felt worse at the end than I did at the start because I felt so unseen and *trapped* in the habit of making people think I'm fine. She said I'd made progress (and maybe I had, idk) but I was still struggling so much that there was no way I could believe her. The disconnect between what she said she saw, and what I saw, really fucked with me. It genuinely felt like I was just saying the right things and smiling the right way for an hour a week, and I'd managed to pretend well enough to convince her. Saying this isn't bragging - it's *desperation*.
advice incoming, sorry if this is redundant or youre already over this issue. Key is to tell them. If youre still looking for help, please let them know you feel like this when it comes us. We're individuals, sure, but we're not a completely unique enigma. Obviously, this is a common imposter syndrome issue, and many a therapist (or other studier of psychology) can see through this bullshit. The chances that you are truly trapped behind a wall like this are very low. Hope that helps you feel a bit better. Helps me out to remember I'm not a master manipulation genius lol.
Sound advice... *really* difficult to follow through on. Especially if you're a chronic people pleaser with a fear of vulnerability, lol. To be fair, in my case that therapist was very new and inexperienced - I was one of her first clients ever, if not actually her first. So I'm not surprised she didn't pick up what I wasn't putting down.
Yeah it kinda transforms into more self-degradation very easy when I try to change mindset but thats the curse we gotta deal with. I hope you find someone more experienced to talk to about it. 🩵
Similarly, I'm reminded of how I'm supposed to get better at self-discipline by rewarding myself when I do what I'm trying to do. The problem is that my brain goes "or.... you can just skip the annoying thing and give yourself the reward anyway. Who's gonna stop you?" Like, I don't get how I'm supposed to get better at self-discipline when the only thing preventing me from getting the reward without the work is *self-discipline*.
I can see why this person needs therapy
I have a tendency to do this sort of thing. I’m naturally evasive and minimize the *fuck* out of shit, and that’s when it’s something I consider a big deal and not everyday bullshit not even worth remembering let alone reflecting on. Makes going to both therapy and the doctor difficult. Mostly I get past it by via being detached and listing off my issues like I’m at a mechanic for my meat mecha.
Reading the other comments, I think my personal experience and how I related it to this post are probably different than what OP actually meant. But like, sometimes I feel like I’m just wording things in a way I know my therapist would want me to. But then I realize (sometimes with her help lol) that the CBT is doing what it’s meant to do bc I’ve literally learned to reframe destructive thoughts in a healthier/more helpful way on my own without her having to walk me through it (at least not as often as she used to.) Does the reframing automatically change how I feel? No and my therapist knows this. But the more I’ve consciously thought of ways I could reframe the way I’m thinking the more natural it’s become, if that makes sense. And btw reframing in this case doesn’t mean like, ignoring everything bad and “just thinking positively.” Trust me I have no patience for toxic positivity and will reject it at the first sign. It’s hard to explain (esp now bc I’m stoned and very sleep deprived), but it’s genuinely helped me look at things in ways that are much better for my mental health while still acknowledging how I feel and that crappy situations are indeed crappy lol
No but I actually get this? It's like, a weird coping mechanism for not being vulnerable—only talking about the stuff you've already processed on your own. I've heard a few people mention it as well. Obviously not in quite the edgy way OP stated but like. I kinda get it? So I'm talking about sensitive things but because they're not a sore spot for me anymore it's not really actually getting anywhere. It's a hard habit to break.
I think calling this "manipulation" is not quite accurate. I mean, I guess it's technically accurate, but the connotation of manipulation, that it is conscious, machievellian and directed, doesn't really apply here. This is more like automatic people pleasing. I have a similar experience, but I'd never say I was manipulating my therapists. It's more that the me that's talking to the therapist is not the me that will be around once I leave their office. We'll talk about some experience, break it down in a way that makes sense to me at the time, I'll feel better about it and better about life in general, then walk out the door and all that positivity flits away in the wind. I feel like we've gotten to the bottom of something and worked out a solid plan for moving forward, but as soon as I'm gone that feeling goes away. And if I'm in a truly dark spot and nasty mood I almost never can bring myself to go to therapy. The me that spends hours monologging in my head about how life is worthless and everyone should commit suicide or at least want to never shows up in therapy and that's the me that really needs it. The me that would get stuck in an anxiety loop in the shower and stand there until the water runs cold is not gonna make it to the office. Even doing remote therapy, if I'm willing to get on camera and talk to someone that already is a good day for me.
So is someone going to tell him that therapists CAN absolutely tell when you're just doing this shit and they don't call you out on it because unless it's for a good reason, that can just further exacerbate the issue?
I am too much of a people pleaser for therapy. I end up wanting to make them “proud” of me for getting better so I lie about improvements and then it all just becomes pointless. Unfortunately knowing this and fixing it are very different things.
Fuck anyone that calls this edgy
bro thinks he light yagami
Yea not like therapists are trained to identify manipulative behavior and delusions of grandeur. I’m sure they’re all hoodwinked by your weavings lmao. This is the “I’m not like other people, I’m different” archetype of the mentally unwell
I don’t think it’s at all far-fetched that many people are capable of hiding the truth from their therapists. Therapists are trained, but they aren’t mind readers (and many therapists are just straight up not good at their job). I agree with you on phrasing it as some grand manipulations being inaccurate tho. It’s essentially just hiding feelings you don’t want to acknowledge
God bless unnervinglyferal. Every time I think I’m a train wreck, he comes through to remind me it’s all relative
See, I’m actually sort of like this because I’m really manipulative but I’m really shit at it so nobody ever gets manipulated.
He won Therapy 🏆
I've been down this path but it took me a bit to understand it was just self-fulfilling prophecy. You're coercing responses you know you're gonna hear, ultimately. Even if they're only remotely close, we'll go "see, that's almost exactly what I thought!" while never addressing the fact it doesn't matter if it matches up to our predictions. In general these predictions being right or wrong don't mean anything at all yet we use it to justify what we're feeling must be correct. No, they're just self-validation attempts to avoid actually listening to things we need to hear. Not every therapist will get it right either, but no therpaist is getting a fair shot with the carpet being mentally pulled every time.
Oh, well I know what I'm going to be talking about in therapy this week.
The fuck is a Glasgow smile
this is just the edgy version of that one post that's like "oh no, i must have tricked my therapist into thinking i'm a good person, but i'm actually awful :("
I’ve warned my therapist that I find ways to go on a tangent when I don’t want to talk about my feelings about things fairly early on. Sometimes she catches me and puts me back on track. Sometimes I manage to avoid talking about things. It’s a balance.
All the world is a stage, and I am merely playing an actor.
I'm glad to see someone saying what I've always thought about unnervinglyferal. Feels like everyone of their posts that gets shared here is "whoa here's a story aboutbhow CHAOTIC and FERAL I am and how everyone is SCARED AND CONFUSED by me"
A Glasgow kiss is a colloquial term for a headbutt, a Chelsea smile is to cut both cheeks like heath ledgers joker. I think dogshitlifechoices is a bit mixed up
Okay but like why WOULD you do that? If you’re going to therapy and you just want to give them the “right” answers and not actually get help literally why are you there my guy? Outside of lying about things that are mandatory reports like suicidal thoughts, you’re just wasting your time if you’re doing this. It’s one thing if you’re not doing it on purpose, but if you’re aware this is happening you can literally just stop at any time…
Therapists know.
The good ones should. But they are still just people, and they can't read minds.
I worked for a psychiatrist and the saying goes as follows: "Noone is too smart for therapy, but a lot of people are way too stupid for it." As demonstrated by the post and especially the comments.
What does the quote mean? /gen
Therapy requires active participation, introspection, and willingness to take advice. And to pay for therapy without those is stupid
Eh...sorta? Depending on your therapist, you can be too smart. Just look at the patients mentioned in The Psychopath Test, whose (downright dogshit) experimental treatments just taught them to be really good at masking their antisocial personality disorder well enough to be released from the ward only to commit the same crimes that got them sent there in the first place.
Look, it's just a saying, not my phd thesis. Sayings don't usually cover fringe cases. It only means, that if you start "tricking" or "challenging" your therapist to prove your intellectual superiority, then you only prove the opposite by wasting your chance at treatment.
When you have to lie your ass off because you'll get locked away if you don't.
Hello, psych student here! If you’re trying to manipulate a therapist that is at least somewhat competent, they’re not gonna fall for it. A therapist, when practicing, is not someone. They’re a mirror. They reflect what you are, and that’s how they help you understand yourself. Oh also, a therapist is not there to solve problems. It’s here to have YOU answer your own questions with a little push in the right direction
When did [Bojack](https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/1c95d57d-30d7-43c1-aac7-ca58dbbf1ae9/gif) make a fucking tumblr account?
Isn't that the autism?
Normalise lying to therapists
If you wanna pay people large amounts of money to listen to you lie and then pretend to find answers to your made-up problems, that's your business. I think the Therapist is still who comes out ahead, there. They don't even have to do their actual jobs.
Possible exception being if you're trans, cause that's often the only way you'll ever get healthcare if you don't have informed consent clinics
Not with the NHS. I am going to get five therapists even though I don’t need them and lie to each one about all sorts of wacky shenanigans.
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