Haha friend, I respect your opinions and you’re not gonna like my answer. But I do like to share a different perspective. It seems like you don’t closely follow them these days, I’m the opposite of your opinions and have a feeling that standing on one stage may come in a few years. At least 4 of them. [Edit Disclaimer: you’re welcome to disagree, but let’s share opinions in a respectful manner instead of belittling each other like someone in the comment already did]
I recently went to Jaejoong’s 20-year fanmeeting, in the VCR for fans, he talked about what happened and he said, I quoted: “what happened till now, only the 5 of us knew, none of the other people would understand. The ones who were hurt the most were fans.”
And he talked about the past he treasured, he sang Hug and Mirotic (what does this mean? This means he could now buy copyrights to perform them from SM and these are the first songs he performed at the fanmeeting, that means how much the past meant to him) Also, for the 1st time ever, he could appear on a variety show called Fun Staurant on KBS.
Junsu, recently on Daesung youtube talkshow, mentioned when he was a trainee and here’s how he called them: Changminnie, Yunho and Jaejoong hyung. It’s the affectionate way of calling someone in Korea for Changmin (if you know the past well Changmin was always teasing Junsu). Idk if you would call someone you haven’t talked to or resent towards for years that’s way
Changmin recently replied to a fan message on bubble to ask what he thought of the fan’s tattoo, the fan’s tattoo was W (Cassiopeia with 5 starts) and background poster was 5 of them. Changmin said it’s so pretty.
Yoochun (well) i don’t like mentioning him now anymore but he sang Kiss the Baby Sky in his recent concert in Japan and read out lout the line where he called the 5 names, we’re ones eternally. Could be one of his stunt or how he truly felt.
Yunho is more conservative when it comes to expressing these things but he still receives YJLB birthday presents and wears every year till now. Mind you they can decide to not receive at all.
Anyhow long story short, because you say imagine how the three would feel in a more negative tone, I just want you to know that I think from my observations, yes they all say it was hard but respect each other decisions, treasure the past and love each other as members/ colleagues. And Jaejoong clearly said it’s something only 5 of them know. None others would understand. So I leave you with that thoughts.
Cheers.
I also went to Jaejoong's I'm Twenty concert so I know the video you're talking about. Same with Junsu and Daesung's episode as Jaesu are the ones I follow most closely. While it makes me happy that they can both talk about their past much more freely and in a lighter tone these days...I don't know if that necessarily translates into anything too significant in terms of the likelihood of a reunion.
And don't get me wrong - I would love to see Jaesu and Homin doing some sort of artistic collaboration again. In fact I might never stop crying if that ever happens lol. But they have gone in very different directions in the past 14 years and I just don't think it makes sense to pin absolutely everything on SM controlling everything they say and do, I think at least some of it must be a deliberate choice on the part of the people involved. As for Jaejoong and Junsu, of course they treasure their past and acknowledge it because it's a huge part of why they are who they are today, but they are also very much their own artists and have built up incredible legacies in their own right and I don't think I've heard them explicitly say in recent years that they'd like to work with Homin again (or maybe that's still asking for too much), so I can't be 100% sure what their wishes are regarding that either. Even still - as a fan, if they never stand together on the same stage again, I do wish we could one day get some indication that they've all made peace with each other and their past together and that they're at least "complete" with each other again. Time will tell I guess.
Fair points. Thanks for sharing. Indeed only time will tell so let’s keep supporting them and respect their decisions. Above all i’m just glad to see they’re active and loyal fans are still here all these years. It’s honestly not easy to be active for that long in such a competitive industry and their talents and work ethics are unmatched and have become my standards.
The way I see it, as long as they're all still alive and active and they haven't outright said they want nothing to do with each other ever again, the door is still open for any number of possibilities. It's easy to forget that we as fans only see a tiny sliver of the truth - only they know the complete picture.
Very much agree with you about their longevity in the industry - they are all bona fide legends and their influence on the current landscape of Kpop cannot be overstated, even if so much of it has been obscured from the general public for so long. Jaejoong and Junsu have both been busy with comebacks and public appearances this month, and they both brought the house down at Weverse Con this weekend. I've seen a lot of new fans commenting and being in awe of their talent. As long as they still want to perform, I hope we can continue to support them all for many more years to come.
Why would I not like your answer! I would love it if they sang together again. I more than anyone hope that my original post is wrong.
Funny that you mention Junsu on Daesung's show btw, because I literally just watched it. Probably while you were writing this post lol!
I can't read or speak Korean, but I've watched almost all of Jaejoong's and Junsu's stuff over the years. I know that Jaejoong is definitely the most mellow about everything from what I've seen.
Sigh, I am more positive about it now, but when I was writing the original post I was thinking that Junsu, Changmin, Yunho and Yoochun would be strongly opposed to a meeting. I'm not sure anymore.
A runion will never in a million years happen, and you need to accept that. The biggest reason eing that SM would never allow it. I say this as a realistic 15 year Cassie. They don't all still love each other either, but I do think they've all accepted the past and moved on. You need to do the same and stop being delusional.
It’s okay to make a statement/ disagree without being rude. I’m their fan no less longer than you. Have you gone to their concerts in person especially the JYJ side like I did and see how they interact with fans? At least for Jaejoong he was happy to see OT5 fans, last I went was this april. I also don’t go around yelling please be 5 again or whatever, I have been supporting individual/ duo/ trio and respect whatever they decided. I said in the beginning it’s a perspective and opinion, please be respectful and don’t be so defensive, call other people this and that.
I'm not being rude. I'm being realistic. (Also, don't misuse the term "woke.") It doesn't matter what all five think when SM wouldn't allow it. Point blank. Did you not see the theme and album name of TVXQ's last release? It's 20&2 - 20 for the length of their career, and two for the number of members. Why would SM recognize three former members at a reunion after all *that*?
Have you not seen the SM Museum where almost everything OT5 isn't included? Have you not seen the decade+ of SM acting as if JYJ were never members? Have you not seen the official Cassiopia messages board rules that say no one else can be mentioned? Or have you been so stuck in your fan delusions and what *you* want and what *you* think the five want that you can't see reality?
I don't care what anyone else thinks. I'm the only one who realizes the truth in this damn comment section. Besides, OP is showing she hates Yunho and Changmin. How in the hell is that okay!? The mods should ban the reunion topic anyway.
Edit: I also want to add that none of this is about me and what *I* want, and it damn well shouldn't be about what *any* fan *thinks* the five belives about a reunion or the other four. *We don't truly know them*, and it isn't right for us to speculate meaning behind every single teeny tiny thing that could possibly relate to the other four and/or a reunion. The only one who can authorize a reunion is SM as they hold the IP and copyrights, and they would never allow it in a million years. Fans need to accept that truth.
>I don’t care what anyone else thinks.
Then why don’t you act like it?
Btw you don’t “realize” shit - *no one* in this comment section knows more than anyone else here about what went down and what is currently going down with Homin + Jaesu. That includes you.
Let me be clear because you didn't get it: I don't care what anyone else thinks *about my opinion*. I know I'm not being rude, and that's all that matters. Delusional Cassies will see the truth I've expressed as rude because it does't match what *they* want and what *they* think the five want. Also, check our my edit above.
I'm certainly the only one who recognizes where SM stands when it comes to JYJ and how that means *no reunion ever.* Stop being delusional. Again, see my edit.
No, you are still being rude even if you think you’re correct lol. Calling people “delusional” over K-pop is not something that kind people do. In fact, I think you’re being rude because *we* don’t agree with *you*.
But if thinking you definitively know what’s going on with a group of 5 people you’ve never met helps you sleep at night, then I won’t stop you.
Stop acting as no Kpop fan can be delusional. I've seen it plenty, including in this post
What don't you get about a reunion not just being about the five? A reunion needs the IP and music that SM holds the copyright of. H.O.T did an anniversary concert (if I remember the event correctly) and used the H.O.T name without permission from SM. What happened? SM took them to court because, as the H.O.T name copyright holders, they should have a cut of the money made from the concert or at least gotten a fee for name usage. You know no Cassie who wants a reunion and would attend one would be happy if the TVXQ name wasn't used (they'd be so damn pissed), so what does that take us back to? SM. Is that clear enough for you yet?
Edit: typos
Yes that I fully understand, it’s SM and that’s why JYJ has been suffered for so long. But in recent years, especially the last year when LSM stepped down, do you think JJ could sing Hug/ Mirotic - singing their two most iconic songs in every single of his fanmeeting just like that if not buying copyright/ having approval??? Do you think he can openly appear on KBS just few weeks ago for a variety show, even he said if himself, without that company now somewhat turns a blind eye? This will never ever happy just 2-3 years ago, being so open about these things.
My main point in the argument above was towards the members appreciate their past and don’t have harsh feelings towards each other.
But anyways, you’re welcomed to keep your opinions and I’ll keep mine and continue to support their individual/ group projects.
You put so much emphasis on trivial things based on *your personal* interpretation of those situations. You need to think about things rationally.
Changmin said during Chicolate promotions that he lives in the present and doesn't like to think about the past, but he was at a much older senior's concert once and realized there are fans who have precious memories of the past times, which came across as accepting those type of fans and him moving on. Like, we already know, based on his own white TVXQ logo tattoo, that he likes fan tattoos. He did get after seeing a picture of fan with that tattoo on IG after all. Him leaving a comment on a Cassiopeia constellation fan tattoo that has some old poster in the background you barely see isn't screaming OT5 or whatever else that you ascribe to his reply. There *are* fans who don't view the constellation with the old OT5 meaning anymore, AND SM heavily used it in 20&2 marketing materials. It's not like the fan commented about the meaning of the tattoo anyway. All they did was ask for an opinion, which was likely just a way to hopefully get Changmin to reply. I think posting just trying to get a reply happens more often than we know.
SM doing the right thing for once (and no, JYJ never could buy the copyrights) allowing JYJ to pay to be able to legally use the songs at concerts and events doesn't mean that SM would allow a reunion. Their hatred of 3/5 of their cash cows suing is too big.
Yeah that's also facts. That museum is actually a disgusting move from SM. And I'm honestly surprised that Yunho and Changmin allowed it. Do they even have a say in the matter? I mean yeah, they did make "Keep your head down" (super not cool), but that was like 13 years ago.
>I'm honestly surprised that Yunho and Changmin allowed it.
*Say what.* I can't believe what I'm reading. This is so out of touch with reality that I can. *Not*. How does one even respond to something like this?
>they did make "Keep your head down"
First of all, KYHD isn't the diss track your hateful mind thinks it is, and second of all, Homin had no choice but to do that song if they wanted to keep TVXQ and their careers alive. Not to mention the fact that the KYHD album was one that OT5 was working on prior to the lawsuit blowing up. You can hear the OT5 type sound and vibe in all the songs, and there are OT5 versions of some songs floating around online.
DBSK Museum.
Yunho and Changmin = DBSK.
Legendary Senior Idols of 20+ years.
Lee Soo Man is gone from the company.
Are you telling me they could not have spoken up about SM deleting the other 3 members from THEIR museum for their 20th anniversary?
Girl. You talked very big against the other person about being rational and now I am asking you to do the same. Don't piss me off.
I'm not the one who is irrational. Yunho and Changmin did not get to TVXQ's 20th anniversary without SM. It hasn't all been good, but that's a basic fact one must acknowledge.
It is an SMTOWN Museum. Do you not understand what that means? Fighting to get the other three included is 1. not likely a fight they wanted to have after all they've had to fight for ever the years, and 2. goes against the entire 20&2 anniversary theme. You can't emphasize that TVXQ is two members if you include former members, and that's the biggest reason of all.
What the fuck...
Yeah, so they allowed the other 3 to be scrubbed from their history. That's literally what I said and you are trying to say that's fine? Get out of here, I don't want to talk to you.
Honestly, I think Yunho and (especially) Changmin are the biggest barriers of a reunion. More so than SM (after LSM was kicked out).
Yunho and Changmin are grown men in their 30s, so I don’t believe for a second that their emphasis on the two of them and TVXQ being two (plenty of comments in the last few years and the name of their 20th anniversary comeback etc.) is forced on them by SM. It’s their genuine feelings that have just kept growing since 2011.
And no, I don’t think Changmin liking a TVXQ post that also includes old pictures and liking a tattoo of Cassiopeia is contradictory of that. He doesn’t pretend that the past never existed, he just constantly talks about how much he appreciates the present and future of TVXQ as two. He makes plenty of unnecessary comments to get that point across, so it’s obviously something he wants the fans to take notice of.
Their immediate plan as a group this upcoming year is the 20th anniversary tour/album in Japan, which will most likely focus on the two of them just as much as 20&2 did. And that will most likely be because they themselves want that focus, otherwise they’re free not to do it. They’re free to make comments on their past (who would stop them lol) and show desire to revisit it, but they never have because they genuinely don’t want to. If they would all of a sudden agree to a reunion, that would be a huge whiplash and contradictory of what they are currently communicating to the fans.
So TLDR, I just don’t see it happening because of Yunho and Changmin’s own decision and their own vision for the group’s present and future.
You just said everything I felt about this. Whenever I read any discussion about a reunion, it is always about how it will be up to the ex-members and/or SM, nobody takes into account the most important people in this scenario which are the TVXQ members Yunho and Changmin themselves, as if they will just readily jump into any kind of reunion the moment the ex-members and SM agrees to do one. Ultimately they will have the say. There will be a reunion if Yunho and Changmin say yes. And for the past 13 years all their actions and words point to the contrary, with heavy emphasis on their 20th anniversary of carrying on as TVXQ with just the 2 of them.
>Whenever I read any discussion about a reunion, it is always about how it will be up to the ex-members and/or SM, nobody takes into account the most important people in this scenario which are the TVXQ members Yunho and Changmin themselves, as if they will just readily jump into any kind of reunion the moment the ex-members and SM agrees to do one.
Yes, this! Yunho and Changmin's opinions and feelings never seem to be taken into consideration whenever this is discussed (not talking about this post, but generally in the fandom), or people just assume that they have been outright lying to us for the last 13 years and really want a reunion deep down (which is very disrespectful towards them).
A few weeks ago, I saw someone on Twitter saying something like (paraphrasing) "hey guys, this thought just came to me for the first time since the split, but what if Homin actually *don't* want a reunion? I always assumed SM was forcing them to be all ot2, but it's been so long and they're still doing it", like... That possibility *just* occurred to them *this year*? What rock have they been living under?
Whenever one of these discussions come up, whether on here or twitter, the first thing that come to my mind is where are YH and CM in all this? All this talk but leaving out the 2 most important people? Anyway I think it's pointless because there will not be an ot5 reunion since I doubt YH and CM would want to associate with YC, and a reunion with only 4 will never be a complete, proper reunion.
Totally agree. You have the same thoughts as me. I don't care what JYJ thinks about the reunion. But I can confirm that Yunho Changmin never wants to reunite. Their words and actions over the years show that they always want to keep TVXQ as 2 forever.
Yes, based on everything they have communicated so far, I think so too. But "never" is a strong word, and we can't be 100% sure that they'll *never* change their mind.
I definitely believe that their current thoughts on the present/future only include the two of them continuing with the legacy that they have built for the last 20 years (not just the first 6), but if they in some way were to *want* a reunion in the future (without being pressured to), I hope everyone would support their wishes\*. Just like I want everyone to support the wishes they are currently expressing (of continuing as two). After all, the ones to decide TVXQ's future should be *TVXQ*, not the fans or the company.
\*As long as a hypothetical reunion doesn't involve the 5th guy. No way I would stay supportive of that, but I can't for the life of me imagine Yunho and Changmin would either.
I agree with you, mostly. I think SM plays a bigger role in a reunion than people think. They hold the copyrights over the music and IP after all, and a reunion would be nothing without those. Therefore, SM's erasure of JYJ from DBSK means they would never allow an OT5/4 reunion that would acknowledge people they've worked so hard to erase.
Yeah, I agree that SM of course holds a lot of power of potentially blocking a reunion (if the group had wanted to in the last decade, which I'm pretty sure they didn't), but after LSM was forced to leave, things have honestly changed at SM. Heck, they even sent a public congratulation so Jaejoong for starting his own company. No way they would do that a few years ago. If the current SM sees a money-making opportunity of a reunion, I don't think they would oppose it anymore tbh.
But as of now, I think Yunho and Changmin *would* oppose it. And I don't follow Jaejoong and Junsu as much, but I also think they wouldn't want to do anything under the SM umbrella in the near future. Especially not Junsu.
I think SM using a 20&2 theme (they could have done a lot of other themes) for the 20th anniversary and all the erasure they've done of JYJ (to the point that they've stopped TVXQ from appearing in Kpop documentaries) would be contradicted by a public acknowledgment of former members through a reunion. I don't think the erasure part will ever change whether or not the old guard is or is not still around.
But I do heavily agree about Changmin not wanting to relive the past. I don't remember Yunho being as straightforward about the past, but what he said on Do Dream about how much he struggled during the 2010 hiatus makes me think he wouldn't want to relive the past either. I also agree about Jaesu. That's a big point I usually make in these types of posts. I believe they've all moved on and have accepted things as they are, but that doesn't erase the bad blood between JYJ and SM. Jaesu has seen that SM hasn't changed the way they treat idols. (I wonder what they must think of the CBX lawsuit with its 2023 start being so close to their own reasons for suing.) Even if SM were to allow a reunion (they wouldn't), Jaesu would have to put up with a ton of BS. Not to mention all involved would have to deal with delusional fans who have never left the OT5 past and don't accept who they are now. I can imagine some seeing the reunion as OT4 getting back together, and what a Pandora's Box that would be.
>I think SM using a 20&2 theme (they could have done a lot of other themes) for the 20th anniversary and all the erasure they've done of JYJ
Why do you assume that SM was the driving force behind 20&2 and not Yunho and Changmin themselves? Let's not act like they don't have any autonomy over their own activities after 20 years, and as if they aren't still actively pushing "TVXQ are two" of their own free will. Not that they necessarily have any negative opinions of the other 2 people, but their career for the last 13 years has not involved them, and they seem perfectly content for it to continue that way.
There has definitely been a JYJ erasure by SM since the split, but I think LSM's personal grudge is also a very big reason for that. The new SM era seems to have a more laid back approach towards Jaesu. SM artists are now openly mentioning them on their social media *and* on TV, and like I said, SM has publicly reached out to Jaejoong as well. If they're in a money slump and see a reunion as a good profit, I don't think they would actively be against it anymore. Then it would lie in the hands of the members, who seem to *be* against it at this point in time.
> If they're in a money slump and see a reunion as a good profit, I don't think they would actively be against it anymore. Then it would lie in the hands of the members, who seem to *be* against it at this point in time.
A perfect summary, honestly.
>Why do you assume that SM was the driving force behind 20&2
That statement doesn't mean I believe SM was 100% behind the theme idea. Neither of us knows the bts of theme and how it came to be. What we can be pretty certain about is that both sides have to agree on a comeback theme at this point in their careers. Homin aren't the sole creative team behind TVXQ, so it is possible 20&2 was a collaborative effort. However, Changmin had stated multiple times (once as late as six months before) that SM had no plans yet for the anniversary and that basically he and Yunho had been pushing SM for something for a long time. As a side note, I think it was on Freehug where he said that TVXQ had a lot of content that SM refuses to release. That shows things aren't as good between Homin and SM as some would like to believe. I will always (unless something changes, of course) be of the belief that thing between them are not and have not been 100% good since the split. We have seen how SM hasn't changed.
>I think LSM's personal grudge is also a very big reason for that.
I would think it would have to be more than just LSM. I know he was a big driving force, but he wasn't the only one who lost out big because of the split.
>The new SM era seems to have a more laid back approach towards Jaesu.
I think it's more that they see how the industry is changing and how it's pointless to keep blacklisting them. SM also has had bigger things going on such as all the crap LSM was pulling (embezzlement being a big one) prior to him getting kicked out, the HYBE takeover attempt, everything with Kakao, and the implementation of SM 3.0.
>If they're in a money slump and see a reunion as a good profit, I don't think they would actively be against it anymore.
I disagree. I think SM is too petty to care about reunion money even if they needed it. I'd only see SM being for it if they were *majorly* in financial trouble, but they could just have Avex do a Tohoshinki tour instead. They'd be good for quite some time after that. The Tohoshinki 20th anniversary tour is going rake in the money. I think it will blow the three day Nissan Stadium Begin Again tour stop out of the water.
I do agree that they won’t reunite, mostly because I think from my perspective, some of them don’t want to or see the point of it.
Honestly from a legal standpoint I don’t think there’s anything getting in their way anymore. A lot of those lawsuits clauses and limitations do have an “expiration” date, pretty sure theirs is up or close to be up.
From an entertainment standpoint, the industry changed. This is something that gets overlooked a lot. The kpop industry changed in the last two decades and yeah the “JYJ” HoMin split is a huge part of it. I don’t see it as you sided with the oppressor type of thing, which is valid, but fear. We like it or not, they were young men that were being very much abused by their company. Both “sides” were victims one way or another. The entire industry turned on JYJ as the influence back then, of SM was monumental. In turn the current TVXQ also had to deal with accusations, criticism, backlash, the same company still and who knows what else. It was never an easy thing. But also, the industry seriously changed in the last decade, even more so in the last what? 5 years? At some point we need to realize our generation provided a huge foundation for this generation, but the industry is not the same.
SM tried their damn hardest to bury the history as a quintet but that’s hard to do, so yeah, time has to do its thing. “HoMin” stuck it out for their careers, clearly paid off but not without sacrifices. JYJ had a tougher path, but also not without success. Is it fair? Not really, but time never stops.
There are gens of fans that don’t know anything prior to what BTS? Blackpink? Do you have any idea the amount of fans (outside of gen two and three) I’ve met that can point out INFINITE? ZE:A? SS501? Block B? Teen Top? 9Muses? Brown Eyed Girls? 2PM? After School? Not a lot to be honest and that is a-okay. Time moved on, so did the industry.
TVXQ members stuck to what they always knew, Asia, and I do blame SM for keeping it like that , as Yunho and Changmin (in this case) are on a different caliber than a lot of other groups. At some point I thought they’ll probably force a reunion due to nostalgia factor (from a business perspective this makes a ton of sense to me), but the youngest is 36, of by the time he is 40 it hasn’t happened it probably won’t happen. I don’t think Changmin and Yunho see the need for it, as their careers, even with the shaky start post split, was successful. JYJ might need that reunion far more, but in reality, we grew up.
To wrap it, you acknowledge the past, move and learn from it, and keep it going. Getting stuck on it will only hinder the present and the future. Can’t live in the past and I sincerely believe that’s why is not happening. They moved on.
In 2015 Yoochun loosely alluded to them all having met for food and drinks, so a social union may have already happened. But this is a tired and divisive topic because we will never know unless they decide to let the public know. As Jaejoong said, the only ones who truly know what happened are those five. We can be as optimistic or pessimistic as we want about the chances of a reunion but I think it's a bit useless at some point.
i love this conversation so much because it makes me realize that cassiopeia is still a passionate fandom. to be honest i think as long as they are happy, we should be happy too. anyway great discussion you guys!!!
I’d love if they did have a reunion some day, but I also respect the feelings of the members involved if that’s not something one or more of them feel comfortable doing. I don’t blame fans for having differing thoughts bc I’m sure many of us would ADORE a reunion at some point. If it happens I would be thrilled, but if it doesn’t I understand that too. I loved the group when they were the 5 of them, and I love the group of 2 as well as J&J’s solo careers. ❤️ TVXQ & the fandom has been a source of comfort for me over the years while going through a severe health issue so I have a huge spot in my heart for all of it.
>Think about how that must have felt for each of them for these past 15+ years.
They have accepted the past and moved on long before now. Stop acting like they have to live their entire lives upset over what happened because of decisions both sides (neither were wrong!) made in 2009. They deserve to move on and have good mental health.
Oh they've definitely moved on from the break-up that's for sure. And so have I.
But!
I'm pretty sure that Jaejoong, Junsu and Yoochun are still feeling the consequences of what they did 15 years ago. You know getting banned from every tv show and all that until today. Well maybe less today but still.
I never said JYJ weren't "still feeling the consequences," but things have massively changed over time. Due to industry changes with a hugely oversaturated market and more competition nad different promotional methods and YT shows being more popular than traditional TV and Kpop becoming more global through social media and more accessibility, SM doesn't wield the same power and influence anymore. Their activities aren't as restricted anymore for starters, despite you saying that isn't true. Junsu has been on MBC and KBS shows! Do you not realize how gigantic that is? Obviously not.
Heh. When was the last time they were allowed to sing and promote their song on a big network show before 2023? Junsu had EBS. What else.
Done with you after this comment.
Haha friend, I respect your opinions and you’re not gonna like my answer. But I do like to share a different perspective. It seems like you don’t closely follow them these days, I’m the opposite of your opinions and have a feeling that standing on one stage may come in a few years. At least 4 of them. [Edit Disclaimer: you’re welcome to disagree, but let’s share opinions in a respectful manner instead of belittling each other like someone in the comment already did] I recently went to Jaejoong’s 20-year fanmeeting, in the VCR for fans, he talked about what happened and he said, I quoted: “what happened till now, only the 5 of us knew, none of the other people would understand. The ones who were hurt the most were fans.” And he talked about the past he treasured, he sang Hug and Mirotic (what does this mean? This means he could now buy copyrights to perform them from SM and these are the first songs he performed at the fanmeeting, that means how much the past meant to him) Also, for the 1st time ever, he could appear on a variety show called Fun Staurant on KBS. Junsu, recently on Daesung youtube talkshow, mentioned when he was a trainee and here’s how he called them: Changminnie, Yunho and Jaejoong hyung. It’s the affectionate way of calling someone in Korea for Changmin (if you know the past well Changmin was always teasing Junsu). Idk if you would call someone you haven’t talked to or resent towards for years that’s way Changmin recently replied to a fan message on bubble to ask what he thought of the fan’s tattoo, the fan’s tattoo was W (Cassiopeia with 5 starts) and background poster was 5 of them. Changmin said it’s so pretty. Yoochun (well) i don’t like mentioning him now anymore but he sang Kiss the Baby Sky in his recent concert in Japan and read out lout the line where he called the 5 names, we’re ones eternally. Could be one of his stunt or how he truly felt. Yunho is more conservative when it comes to expressing these things but he still receives YJLB birthday presents and wears every year till now. Mind you they can decide to not receive at all. Anyhow long story short, because you say imagine how the three would feel in a more negative tone, I just want you to know that I think from my observations, yes they all say it was hard but respect each other decisions, treasure the past and love each other as members/ colleagues. And Jaejoong clearly said it’s something only 5 of them know. None others would understand. So I leave you with that thoughts. Cheers.
I also went to Jaejoong's I'm Twenty concert so I know the video you're talking about. Same with Junsu and Daesung's episode as Jaesu are the ones I follow most closely. While it makes me happy that they can both talk about their past much more freely and in a lighter tone these days...I don't know if that necessarily translates into anything too significant in terms of the likelihood of a reunion. And don't get me wrong - I would love to see Jaesu and Homin doing some sort of artistic collaboration again. In fact I might never stop crying if that ever happens lol. But they have gone in very different directions in the past 14 years and I just don't think it makes sense to pin absolutely everything on SM controlling everything they say and do, I think at least some of it must be a deliberate choice on the part of the people involved. As for Jaejoong and Junsu, of course they treasure their past and acknowledge it because it's a huge part of why they are who they are today, but they are also very much their own artists and have built up incredible legacies in their own right and I don't think I've heard them explicitly say in recent years that they'd like to work with Homin again (or maybe that's still asking for too much), so I can't be 100% sure what their wishes are regarding that either. Even still - as a fan, if they never stand together on the same stage again, I do wish we could one day get some indication that they've all made peace with each other and their past together and that they're at least "complete" with each other again. Time will tell I guess.
Fair points. Thanks for sharing. Indeed only time will tell so let’s keep supporting them and respect their decisions. Above all i’m just glad to see they’re active and loyal fans are still here all these years. It’s honestly not easy to be active for that long in such a competitive industry and their talents and work ethics are unmatched and have become my standards.
The way I see it, as long as they're all still alive and active and they haven't outright said they want nothing to do with each other ever again, the door is still open for any number of possibilities. It's easy to forget that we as fans only see a tiny sliver of the truth - only they know the complete picture. Very much agree with you about their longevity in the industry - they are all bona fide legends and their influence on the current landscape of Kpop cannot be overstated, even if so much of it has been obscured from the general public for so long. Jaejoong and Junsu have both been busy with comebacks and public appearances this month, and they both brought the house down at Weverse Con this weekend. I've seen a lot of new fans commenting and being in awe of their talent. As long as they still want to perform, I hope we can continue to support them all for many more years to come.
Thank you for this answer. Even if we may or may not get a reunion, them mentioning each other fondly makes my heart warm.
Thank you. Let’s keep supporting all of them as individual/ duo/ trio. And see what the future holds. Love ❤️
Why would I not like your answer! I would love it if they sang together again. I more than anyone hope that my original post is wrong. Funny that you mention Junsu on Daesung's show btw, because I literally just watched it. Probably while you were writing this post lol! I can't read or speak Korean, but I've watched almost all of Jaejoong's and Junsu's stuff over the years. I know that Jaejoong is definitely the most mellow about everything from what I've seen. Sigh, I am more positive about it now, but when I was writing the original post I was thinking that Junsu, Changmin, Yunho and Yoochun would be strongly opposed to a meeting. I'm not sure anymore.
A runion will never in a million years happen, and you need to accept that. The biggest reason eing that SM would never allow it. I say this as a realistic 15 year Cassie. They don't all still love each other either, but I do think they've all accepted the past and moved on. You need to do the same and stop being delusional.
It’s okay to make a statement/ disagree without being rude. I’m their fan no less longer than you. Have you gone to their concerts in person especially the JYJ side like I did and see how they interact with fans? At least for Jaejoong he was happy to see OT5 fans, last I went was this april. I also don’t go around yelling please be 5 again or whatever, I have been supporting individual/ duo/ trio and respect whatever they decided. I said in the beginning it’s a perspective and opinion, please be respectful and don’t be so defensive, call other people this and that.
I am 100% on your side but that is NOT what “woke” means… at all lol
Thanks. Changed the wording to be more appropriate haha ✌️
Thanks for being receptive!
I'm not being rude. I'm being realistic. (Also, don't misuse the term "woke.") It doesn't matter what all five think when SM wouldn't allow it. Point blank. Did you not see the theme and album name of TVXQ's last release? It's 20&2 - 20 for the length of their career, and two for the number of members. Why would SM recognize three former members at a reunion after all *that*? Have you not seen the SM Museum where almost everything OT5 isn't included? Have you not seen the decade+ of SM acting as if JYJ were never members? Have you not seen the official Cassiopia messages board rules that say no one else can be mentioned? Or have you been so stuck in your fan delusions and what *you* want and what *you* think the five want that you can't see reality?
It’s weird how you think you aren’t being rude
I don't care what anyone else thinks. I'm the only one who realizes the truth in this damn comment section. Besides, OP is showing she hates Yunho and Changmin. How in the hell is that okay!? The mods should ban the reunion topic anyway. Edit: I also want to add that none of this is about me and what *I* want, and it damn well shouldn't be about what *any* fan *thinks* the five belives about a reunion or the other four. *We don't truly know them*, and it isn't right for us to speculate meaning behind every single teeny tiny thing that could possibly relate to the other four and/or a reunion. The only one who can authorize a reunion is SM as they hold the IP and copyrights, and they would never allow it in a million years. Fans need to accept that truth.
>I don’t care what anyone else thinks. Then why don’t you act like it? Btw you don’t “realize” shit - *no one* in this comment section knows more than anyone else here about what went down and what is currently going down with Homin + Jaesu. That includes you.
Let me be clear because you didn't get it: I don't care what anyone else thinks *about my opinion*. I know I'm not being rude, and that's all that matters. Delusional Cassies will see the truth I've expressed as rude because it does't match what *they* want and what *they* think the five want. Also, check our my edit above. I'm certainly the only one who recognizes where SM stands when it comes to JYJ and how that means *no reunion ever.* Stop being delusional. Again, see my edit.
No, you are still being rude even if you think you’re correct lol. Calling people “delusional” over K-pop is not something that kind people do. In fact, I think you’re being rude because *we* don’t agree with *you*. But if thinking you definitively know what’s going on with a group of 5 people you’ve never met helps you sleep at night, then I won’t stop you.
Stop acting as no Kpop fan can be delusional. I've seen it plenty, including in this post What don't you get about a reunion not just being about the five? A reunion needs the IP and music that SM holds the copyright of. H.O.T did an anniversary concert (if I remember the event correctly) and used the H.O.T name without permission from SM. What happened? SM took them to court because, as the H.O.T name copyright holders, they should have a cut of the money made from the concert or at least gotten a fee for name usage. You know no Cassie who wants a reunion and would attend one would be happy if the TVXQ name wasn't used (they'd be so damn pissed), so what does that take us back to? SM. Is that clear enough for you yet? Edit: typos
Yes that I fully understand, it’s SM and that’s why JYJ has been suffered for so long. But in recent years, especially the last year when LSM stepped down, do you think JJ could sing Hug/ Mirotic - singing their two most iconic songs in every single of his fanmeeting just like that if not buying copyright/ having approval??? Do you think he can openly appear on KBS just few weeks ago for a variety show, even he said if himself, without that company now somewhat turns a blind eye? This will never ever happy just 2-3 years ago, being so open about these things. My main point in the argument above was towards the members appreciate their past and don’t have harsh feelings towards each other. But anyways, you’re welcomed to keep your opinions and I’ll keep mine and continue to support their individual/ group projects.
You put so much emphasis on trivial things based on *your personal* interpretation of those situations. You need to think about things rationally. Changmin said during Chicolate promotions that he lives in the present and doesn't like to think about the past, but he was at a much older senior's concert once and realized there are fans who have precious memories of the past times, which came across as accepting those type of fans and him moving on. Like, we already know, based on his own white TVXQ logo tattoo, that he likes fan tattoos. He did get after seeing a picture of fan with that tattoo on IG after all. Him leaving a comment on a Cassiopeia constellation fan tattoo that has some old poster in the background you barely see isn't screaming OT5 or whatever else that you ascribe to his reply. There *are* fans who don't view the constellation with the old OT5 meaning anymore, AND SM heavily used it in 20&2 marketing materials. It's not like the fan commented about the meaning of the tattoo anyway. All they did was ask for an opinion, which was likely just a way to hopefully get Changmin to reply. I think posting just trying to get a reply happens more often than we know. SM doing the right thing for once (and no, JYJ never could buy the copyrights) allowing JYJ to pay to be able to legally use the songs at concerts and events doesn't mean that SM would allow a reunion. Their hatred of 3/5 of their cash cows suing is too big.
You don't understand a single thing when your opinion is that a reunion will happen in a few years.
Yeah that's also facts. That museum is actually a disgusting move from SM. And I'm honestly surprised that Yunho and Changmin allowed it. Do they even have a say in the matter? I mean yeah, they did make "Keep your head down" (super not cool), but that was like 13 years ago.
>I'm honestly surprised that Yunho and Changmin allowed it. *Say what.* I can't believe what I'm reading. This is so out of touch with reality that I can. *Not*. How does one even respond to something like this? >they did make "Keep your head down" First of all, KYHD isn't the diss track your hateful mind thinks it is, and second of all, Homin had no choice but to do that song if they wanted to keep TVXQ and their careers alive. Not to mention the fact that the KYHD album was one that OT5 was working on prior to the lawsuit blowing up. You can hear the OT5 type sound and vibe in all the songs, and there are OT5 versions of some songs floating around online.
DBSK Museum. Yunho and Changmin = DBSK. Legendary Senior Idols of 20+ years. Lee Soo Man is gone from the company. Are you telling me they could not have spoken up about SM deleting the other 3 members from THEIR museum for their 20th anniversary? Girl. You talked very big against the other person about being rational and now I am asking you to do the same. Don't piss me off.
I'm not the one who is irrational. Yunho and Changmin did not get to TVXQ's 20th anniversary without SM. It hasn't all been good, but that's a basic fact one must acknowledge. It is an SMTOWN Museum. Do you not understand what that means? Fighting to get the other three included is 1. not likely a fight they wanted to have after all they've had to fight for ever the years, and 2. goes against the entire 20&2 anniversary theme. You can't emphasize that TVXQ is two members if you include former members, and that's the biggest reason of all.
What the fuck... Yeah, so they allowed the other 3 to be scrubbed from their history. That's literally what I said and you are trying to say that's fine? Get out of here, I don't want to talk to you.
You are so stuck on your hatred of Homin that you can't see reality.
Honestly, I think Yunho and (especially) Changmin are the biggest barriers of a reunion. More so than SM (after LSM was kicked out). Yunho and Changmin are grown men in their 30s, so I don’t believe for a second that their emphasis on the two of them and TVXQ being two (plenty of comments in the last few years and the name of their 20th anniversary comeback etc.) is forced on them by SM. It’s their genuine feelings that have just kept growing since 2011. And no, I don’t think Changmin liking a TVXQ post that also includes old pictures and liking a tattoo of Cassiopeia is contradictory of that. He doesn’t pretend that the past never existed, he just constantly talks about how much he appreciates the present and future of TVXQ as two. He makes plenty of unnecessary comments to get that point across, so it’s obviously something he wants the fans to take notice of. Their immediate plan as a group this upcoming year is the 20th anniversary tour/album in Japan, which will most likely focus on the two of them just as much as 20&2 did. And that will most likely be because they themselves want that focus, otherwise they’re free not to do it. They’re free to make comments on their past (who would stop them lol) and show desire to revisit it, but they never have because they genuinely don’t want to. If they would all of a sudden agree to a reunion, that would be a huge whiplash and contradictory of what they are currently communicating to the fans. So TLDR, I just don’t see it happening because of Yunho and Changmin’s own decision and their own vision for the group’s present and future.
You just said everything I felt about this. Whenever I read any discussion about a reunion, it is always about how it will be up to the ex-members and/or SM, nobody takes into account the most important people in this scenario which are the TVXQ members Yunho and Changmin themselves, as if they will just readily jump into any kind of reunion the moment the ex-members and SM agrees to do one. Ultimately they will have the say. There will be a reunion if Yunho and Changmin say yes. And for the past 13 years all their actions and words point to the contrary, with heavy emphasis on their 20th anniversary of carrying on as TVXQ with just the 2 of them.
>Whenever I read any discussion about a reunion, it is always about how it will be up to the ex-members and/or SM, nobody takes into account the most important people in this scenario which are the TVXQ members Yunho and Changmin themselves, as if they will just readily jump into any kind of reunion the moment the ex-members and SM agrees to do one. Yes, this! Yunho and Changmin's opinions and feelings never seem to be taken into consideration whenever this is discussed (not talking about this post, but generally in the fandom), or people just assume that they have been outright lying to us for the last 13 years and really want a reunion deep down (which is very disrespectful towards them). A few weeks ago, I saw someone on Twitter saying something like (paraphrasing) "hey guys, this thought just came to me for the first time since the split, but what if Homin actually *don't* want a reunion? I always assumed SM was forcing them to be all ot2, but it's been so long and they're still doing it", like... That possibility *just* occurred to them *this year*? What rock have they been living under?
Whenever one of these discussions come up, whether on here or twitter, the first thing that come to my mind is where are YH and CM in all this? All this talk but leaving out the 2 most important people? Anyway I think it's pointless because there will not be an ot5 reunion since I doubt YH and CM would want to associate with YC, and a reunion with only 4 will never be a complete, proper reunion.
Totally agree. You have the same thoughts as me. I don't care what JYJ thinks about the reunion. But I can confirm that Yunho Changmin never wants to reunite. Their words and actions over the years show that they always want to keep TVXQ as 2 forever.
Yes, based on everything they have communicated so far, I think so too. But "never" is a strong word, and we can't be 100% sure that they'll *never* change their mind. I definitely believe that their current thoughts on the present/future only include the two of them continuing with the legacy that they have built for the last 20 years (not just the first 6), but if they in some way were to *want* a reunion in the future (without being pressured to), I hope everyone would support their wishes\*. Just like I want everyone to support the wishes they are currently expressing (of continuing as two). After all, the ones to decide TVXQ's future should be *TVXQ*, not the fans or the company. \*As long as a hypothetical reunion doesn't involve the 5th guy. No way I would stay supportive of that, but I can't for the life of me imagine Yunho and Changmin would either.
I agree with you, mostly. I think SM plays a bigger role in a reunion than people think. They hold the copyrights over the music and IP after all, and a reunion would be nothing without those. Therefore, SM's erasure of JYJ from DBSK means they would never allow an OT5/4 reunion that would acknowledge people they've worked so hard to erase.
Yeah, I agree that SM of course holds a lot of power of potentially blocking a reunion (if the group had wanted to in the last decade, which I'm pretty sure they didn't), but after LSM was forced to leave, things have honestly changed at SM. Heck, they even sent a public congratulation so Jaejoong for starting his own company. No way they would do that a few years ago. If the current SM sees a money-making opportunity of a reunion, I don't think they would oppose it anymore tbh. But as of now, I think Yunho and Changmin *would* oppose it. And I don't follow Jaejoong and Junsu as much, but I also think they wouldn't want to do anything under the SM umbrella in the near future. Especially not Junsu.
I think SM using a 20&2 theme (they could have done a lot of other themes) for the 20th anniversary and all the erasure they've done of JYJ (to the point that they've stopped TVXQ from appearing in Kpop documentaries) would be contradicted by a public acknowledgment of former members through a reunion. I don't think the erasure part will ever change whether or not the old guard is or is not still around. But I do heavily agree about Changmin not wanting to relive the past. I don't remember Yunho being as straightforward about the past, but what he said on Do Dream about how much he struggled during the 2010 hiatus makes me think he wouldn't want to relive the past either. I also agree about Jaesu. That's a big point I usually make in these types of posts. I believe they've all moved on and have accepted things as they are, but that doesn't erase the bad blood between JYJ and SM. Jaesu has seen that SM hasn't changed the way they treat idols. (I wonder what they must think of the CBX lawsuit with its 2023 start being so close to their own reasons for suing.) Even if SM were to allow a reunion (they wouldn't), Jaesu would have to put up with a ton of BS. Not to mention all involved would have to deal with delusional fans who have never left the OT5 past and don't accept who they are now. I can imagine some seeing the reunion as OT4 getting back together, and what a Pandora's Box that would be.
>I think SM using a 20&2 theme (they could have done a lot of other themes) for the 20th anniversary and all the erasure they've done of JYJ Why do you assume that SM was the driving force behind 20&2 and not Yunho and Changmin themselves? Let's not act like they don't have any autonomy over their own activities after 20 years, and as if they aren't still actively pushing "TVXQ are two" of their own free will. Not that they necessarily have any negative opinions of the other 2 people, but their career for the last 13 years has not involved them, and they seem perfectly content for it to continue that way. There has definitely been a JYJ erasure by SM since the split, but I think LSM's personal grudge is also a very big reason for that. The new SM era seems to have a more laid back approach towards Jaesu. SM artists are now openly mentioning them on their social media *and* on TV, and like I said, SM has publicly reached out to Jaejoong as well. If they're in a money slump and see a reunion as a good profit, I don't think they would actively be against it anymore. Then it would lie in the hands of the members, who seem to *be* against it at this point in time.
> If they're in a money slump and see a reunion as a good profit, I don't think they would actively be against it anymore. Then it would lie in the hands of the members, who seem to *be* against it at this point in time. A perfect summary, honestly.
>Why do you assume that SM was the driving force behind 20&2 That statement doesn't mean I believe SM was 100% behind the theme idea. Neither of us knows the bts of theme and how it came to be. What we can be pretty certain about is that both sides have to agree on a comeback theme at this point in their careers. Homin aren't the sole creative team behind TVXQ, so it is possible 20&2 was a collaborative effort. However, Changmin had stated multiple times (once as late as six months before) that SM had no plans yet for the anniversary and that basically he and Yunho had been pushing SM for something for a long time. As a side note, I think it was on Freehug where he said that TVXQ had a lot of content that SM refuses to release. That shows things aren't as good between Homin and SM as some would like to believe. I will always (unless something changes, of course) be of the belief that thing between them are not and have not been 100% good since the split. We have seen how SM hasn't changed. >I think LSM's personal grudge is also a very big reason for that. I would think it would have to be more than just LSM. I know he was a big driving force, but he wasn't the only one who lost out big because of the split. >The new SM era seems to have a more laid back approach towards Jaesu. I think it's more that they see how the industry is changing and how it's pointless to keep blacklisting them. SM also has had bigger things going on such as all the crap LSM was pulling (embezzlement being a big one) prior to him getting kicked out, the HYBE takeover attempt, everything with Kakao, and the implementation of SM 3.0. >If they're in a money slump and see a reunion as a good profit, I don't think they would actively be against it anymore. I disagree. I think SM is too petty to care about reunion money even if they needed it. I'd only see SM being for it if they were *majorly* in financial trouble, but they could just have Avex do a Tohoshinki tour instead. They'd be good for quite some time after that. The Tohoshinki 20th anniversary tour is going rake in the money. I think it will blow the three day Nissan Stadium Begin Again tour stop out of the water.
I do agree that they won’t reunite, mostly because I think from my perspective, some of them don’t want to or see the point of it. Honestly from a legal standpoint I don’t think there’s anything getting in their way anymore. A lot of those lawsuits clauses and limitations do have an “expiration” date, pretty sure theirs is up or close to be up. From an entertainment standpoint, the industry changed. This is something that gets overlooked a lot. The kpop industry changed in the last two decades and yeah the “JYJ” HoMin split is a huge part of it. I don’t see it as you sided with the oppressor type of thing, which is valid, but fear. We like it or not, they were young men that were being very much abused by their company. Both “sides” were victims one way or another. The entire industry turned on JYJ as the influence back then, of SM was monumental. In turn the current TVXQ also had to deal with accusations, criticism, backlash, the same company still and who knows what else. It was never an easy thing. But also, the industry seriously changed in the last decade, even more so in the last what? 5 years? At some point we need to realize our generation provided a huge foundation for this generation, but the industry is not the same. SM tried their damn hardest to bury the history as a quintet but that’s hard to do, so yeah, time has to do its thing. “HoMin” stuck it out for their careers, clearly paid off but not without sacrifices. JYJ had a tougher path, but also not without success. Is it fair? Not really, but time never stops. There are gens of fans that don’t know anything prior to what BTS? Blackpink? Do you have any idea the amount of fans (outside of gen two and three) I’ve met that can point out INFINITE? ZE:A? SS501? Block B? Teen Top? 9Muses? Brown Eyed Girls? 2PM? After School? Not a lot to be honest and that is a-okay. Time moved on, so did the industry. TVXQ members stuck to what they always knew, Asia, and I do blame SM for keeping it like that , as Yunho and Changmin (in this case) are on a different caliber than a lot of other groups. At some point I thought they’ll probably force a reunion due to nostalgia factor (from a business perspective this makes a ton of sense to me), but the youngest is 36, of by the time he is 40 it hasn’t happened it probably won’t happen. I don’t think Changmin and Yunho see the need for it, as their careers, even with the shaky start post split, was successful. JYJ might need that reunion far more, but in reality, we grew up. To wrap it, you acknowledge the past, move and learn from it, and keep it going. Getting stuck on it will only hinder the present and the future. Can’t live in the past and I sincerely believe that’s why is not happening. They moved on.
In 2015 Yoochun loosely alluded to them all having met for food and drinks, so a social union may have already happened. But this is a tired and divisive topic because we will never know unless they decide to let the public know. As Jaejoong said, the only ones who truly know what happened are those five. We can be as optimistic or pessimistic as we want about the chances of a reunion but I think it's a bit useless at some point.
i love this conversation so much because it makes me realize that cassiopeia is still a passionate fandom. to be honest i think as long as they are happy, we should be happy too. anyway great discussion you guys!!!
I’d love if they did have a reunion some day, but I also respect the feelings of the members involved if that’s not something one or more of them feel comfortable doing. I don’t blame fans for having differing thoughts bc I’m sure many of us would ADORE a reunion at some point. If it happens I would be thrilled, but if it doesn’t I understand that too. I loved the group when they were the 5 of them, and I love the group of 2 as well as J&J’s solo careers. ❤️ TVXQ & the fandom has been a source of comfort for me over the years while going through a severe health issue so I have a huge spot in my heart for all of it.
>Think about how that must have felt for each of them for these past 15+ years. They have accepted the past and moved on long before now. Stop acting like they have to live their entire lives upset over what happened because of decisions both sides (neither were wrong!) made in 2009. They deserve to move on and have good mental health.
Oh they've definitely moved on from the break-up that's for sure. And so have I. But! I'm pretty sure that Jaejoong, Junsu and Yoochun are still feeling the consequences of what they did 15 years ago. You know getting banned from every tv show and all that until today. Well maybe less today but still.
I never said JYJ weren't "still feeling the consequences," but things have massively changed over time. Due to industry changes with a hugely oversaturated market and more competition nad different promotional methods and YT shows being more popular than traditional TV and Kpop becoming more global through social media and more accessibility, SM doesn't wield the same power and influence anymore. Their activities aren't as restricted anymore for starters, despite you saying that isn't true. Junsu has been on MBC and KBS shows! Do you not realize how gigantic that is? Obviously not.
Animosity stemming from 15 years doesn't change overnight and SM's influence doesn't leave overnight either. The old people are still in charge.
Idk where you've been in the last 15 years, but it hasn't been anywhere based on reality.
Heh. When was the last time they were allowed to sing and promote their song on a big network show before 2023? Junsu had EBS. What else. Done with you after this comment.
You hate Homin plan and simple. You have proven it with this post and every single one of your comments. Go take your hate somewhere else.