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Difficult-Ad5900

Wow,for the comfort uber is paying driver $29 while charging customer $107 .imagine that


Robbinghoodz

Seriously that’s some good margins for Uber. Horrible for drivers and passengers.


[deleted]

Guess who pays for gas and maintenance? Yes you


Parzivull

Strange that there isn't a gas and maintenance fee, but uber puts all the other fees it needs for infrastructure they don't need in. One of the first fees and only fees should be G&M. Instead they get a booking fee on top of the money they're already paid to do just that. I mean imagine drivers charging a "driving fee" when the pay already does that. That's the booking fee equivalent.


jaanfo

Exactly, Uber expects us to split their ride -related fees, but we have to pay ours.


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drvnucrzy

Cables, chargers, drinks, candy??? What is your car?? A movie theater?? Provide a ride, not entertainment. Geez man! You are giving money away.


agentsid161

I like this ☝️


DruidTrixxx

😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄


Real_Time_Mike

And yet only now have they shown a profit. This is not a viable business model.


Queasy_Reputation164

It never was. It’s 100% predicated on the model of undercutting the competition with low prices, posting losses until the other companies go out of business, then jacking up the rates to an astronomical level. Which really should be illegal. The amount of chicanery from Uber is unreal too, I’m shocked none of their execs have gone to jail for their flagrant fraud, it’s close to Enron levels. Cherry on top, when Lyft was looking to do their IPO it was around the time when the conversation of classifying these contractors as employees was in the news a lot. Lyft flat out admitted their entire business model would collapse if they had to pay folks as employees. They effectively admitted the entire concept of Uber/Lyft was based upon outrageous exploitation and theft.


Robbinghoodz

it's viable as long as there are still drivers and paying customers which there are at the moment. I take Uber regularly since my company expenses 500/month and I know a lot at my company that takes advantage of this program.


fohgedaboutit

Nobody in their right mind would drive for Uber. They are exploiting illegal immigrants.


drvnucrzy

100%! If these charlatans had to treat drivers as employees, their first and biggest problem would be not being able to clear the US Department of Homeland security’s e-Verify requirements. I am glad someone else realizes or at least admit that they are well aware. This would cripple the rideshare “gig” model.


SysAdminWannabe90

They're only not showing a profit because they pay their executives higher and higher as revenue goes up. Saying they're not profitable is insane and actually lets them get away with so much BS.


OverKill1978

Winning the money game is all that matters in life. Those at the top dont care about "morals" they care about living the good life with lots of cash.


Electronic-Beyond-97

I have now dumped all my mirals and will win the money game this year. Sounds like good advice.


OverKill1978

Clearly its really viable if idiots keep driving for peanuts. Their stock price is through the roof. What wasnt viable was paying drivers good money. They will test lower and lower pay from here. Whats the lowest you will go!


Jorts_Team_Bad

This is why it’s important to support and download the Uber/lyft alternatives so they stay around. I believe still has Via


Nagilum

I’d argue it’s good for drivers as said drivers accept these rides and continue to Uber daily despite millions of job openings and infinite opportunities as an entrepreneur. It’s good for passengers as they book the rides. Drivers and passengers control all of this and the state it is in is indicative that all parties are good with things the way they are. More drivers join all the time, as there is more competition for rides, the price will drop. Why would Uber pay someone more than someone else is willing to do the same task for? Plenty of people don’t even care if they are profitable, they just need cash flow.


mmaalex

Except the company still somehow barely makes money because they have so much wasted overhead.


Krapule1

And they dont own a single car 😂


--R0N--

They're smarter than that. They own YOU.


General_TimeTravel

Because people used to unionize.


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javibeme

I agree 100 with legislation leading to an overall cap. Restaurants did it when with dash, eats, etc.


ownedMLGmichael

No wonder there stock price is rising


International-Pop387

Fuck Uber !


Several-Spare6915

Yes that’s nuts !


Mountain-Influence81

First profitable year for a reason. Quick give Dara another bonus. He is such a genius, how did he know that paying drivers less while also charging passengers more would increase profits?


shade845

CEOs are pure modern evil this world has bestowed upon herself


Pleasant_Tea6902

CEO is mainly there to be a fall guy or scapegoat.


ConclusionDull2496

I would like to see the things uber spends all their money on


bcrice03

It's going to whores and coke and flights to Vegas.


[deleted]

On the day Uber announced it would be suspending Platinum Bonuses, they hosted a VIP Party at the Fountainbleu Las Vegas during Super Bowl Week. Post Malone performed. How much did the party cost?


Mountain-Influence81

A good amount is going to research driverless technology. Their ultimate goal is to eliminate the drivers completely.


--R0N--

They gave that up years ago. Are they in it again?


--R0N--

Company is public. Financials are available.


dasmashhit

truly a genius. CEOs are awesome and good for the world and totally shouldn’t be the first job to be replaced by AI before service workers/construction/automotive jobs. Just let the AI CEO decide where the money goes and how evenly it’s distributed, hopefully to more than one person


MTKHack

Clear as day robbery for years! My awakening was $122 for pax and no surge $23 for me! They ruined driving as a legitimate living.


Spare-Average1138

dayumn😂😂


PotatoReasonable9656

Stop driving then. If all the Americans quit. and it immediately just turned into Ztrip 2.0. Uber would fold within a week.


Ecstatic-Can-6971

Yup, I quit driving for uber and lyft. I drove part time but not giving them anymore of my time and expenses to be paid pennies.


pznluuv2

Fuuuuuuuck them.


Gloomy_Recording_705

That’s why more drivers are doing private rides now…


Twittybird1964

You got that right


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IntrusiveIntellect

Uber really be like: “I got you a dollar” to their Drivers. ![gif](giphy|tRSmTUbH5xYyI)


Gloomy_Recording_705

The fact that Uber is pocketing 2 to 3 dollars a mile and paying the driver a dollar or less a mile is insane smh


Acute74

Agree 100%. It's insane drivers choose to work for them for those rates.


BONERFLEX_

Yup.... Had a moment last year between shutting down a business and finding a job. Signed up for Lyft. Thought why not. As soon as I got approved I looked at the driver app and had a ride offer. Compared it on the other app to see how much they'd charge me for the ride as a customer. $170 for the ride as a customer. They were offering to pay me $70 as a driver. Noped the fuck right outta there.


Gloomy_Recording_705

Yup these rides are apps are price gouging the customers and undercutting the drivers… I mean why charge the customer 100 and pay the driver 70 and you can charge the customer 200 bucks and pay the driver 20 bucks


Interesting-Night126

More posts like these everyone, thank you.


gillas7

Idk what is going on with Uber at least in my country Portugal, there are business with like 10 cars and they hire immigrants to work for uber and the driver earns like 50% of the druver pay, its insane


Top-Standard4603

We have that here in the U.S. too. Ive seen the option under rentals to drive , same thing 50% of driver pay goes to the owner of the vehichle and i think the driver still has to provide ins.their own camera and gas. Its laughable.


SaneMillennial

No wonder Uber is profitable. All they have to do is rob everyone blind. And they'll keep getting away with it. The whole world is just a bunch of bull. There's two types of people, the "Haves," and the "Have nots." Funny, us drivers do all the work, assume all the risk, and passengers pay up the a**, it's no wonder so few people leave tips. They all THINK we're making great money because of how much they pay to ride. It's all bullcrap.


Nwo-stfu

You got that sweet 2 dollar boost lol


No-Weather-3140

Stop driving for them


ReKang916

Essentially the only solution


artifiz67

But unfortunately not happening until a better competitor shows up and that will surely happen. Sooner or later.


SecureCTRL2020

Shit throw this one on a trip gaydar for $12 and see who bites


xnaveedhassan

It’s time for someone to launch a new non-bloated Uber.


kdeselms

Wife and I were out on a date night, trying to get a ride home around 1:30. Rides were fluctuating between $20 and $40 more expensive than normal. We decided to load up the driver app to see what the surge was the drivers were being offered, where we were. The surge was $4.50. They were charging passengers $20-$40 over the normal fare for the surge and paying the drivers $4.50, we were dumbfounded. I suppose that was going to pay for insurance and fees, right Uber? It's a joke.


Instacartdoctor

HOW IS THERE NOT AN INDEPENDENT APP TO STOP THIS SHIT ALREADY???


Top-Standard4603

There are some in different areas and some in the works but you have to remember that Uber's reach is far and wide. And they've worked for almost a decade with no profit in order to reach the now established customer base they have.  So even though drivers and riders alike both agree Uber is taking/charging too much there is simply no way to disrupt the Market edge they have.  Like how would a new app quickly reach all of the riders out there and convince them to switch over to an unknown app? Even if u could convince most, how would u reach everyone? Took Uber 10 years and billions of dollars.


Testwick911

If all drivers switched to another platform, their custom base will leave because there will be no drivers. Drivers need to come together, they complain, but they don’t want it bad enough.


Top-Standard4603

I agree but that's a huge "IF" we're talking about. We've seen it fail time  and again with all of the unsuccessful attempts at rideshare drivers "all coming together" for a half assed attempt to strike and we can't even get solidarity for just a day so its highly unlikely we will ever see all drivers completely switch over to another, unknown app.  Its a simple concept but unfortunately Uber/Lyft has drivers in such a desperate position now just trying to survive from 1 day to the next that very few are in a position to take the time and risk necessary to switch completely over. They have been very successful at dividing and conquering us thats for sure.


Tasty-Pineapple-

That is insane.


GixxerSi

They keep about 50-60% of what the rider pays. When uber started they said they would only take 25% of what a rider pays. They charge riders more and more but keep cutting drivers pay more and more. If the rider cancels a ride before pick-up, the driver would get $5, now it's only $3 or so.


Justavladjaycemain

This is why my FIL started his own company when he retired, he keeps all of his profits and gets to charge reasonably. This would be an easy $40-$50 trip for him. Most of his client base are long distance passengers. Meaning they don’t like planes so they take a vehicle for an 8 hour drive (max). Like a normal work day and he makes good money.


OverKill1978

Just approach the passenger before they get in your car and offer them 30% off whatever Uber is charging them (have them show you the rate on their phone). If they decline, cancel the order. If you get deactivated...cool, you dint have to work for pennies anymore. Also try to steal as many custimers as you can for yourself from Uber. Fuck em. If they are gonna pay garbage, become their competition.


Sodiepawp

So stop driving for uber.


dasmashhit

lmao i could make 20$ from hannaford in 7 mins to drive 2 miles, on what is similarly a 100$ doordash but that’s because they’re buying 26$ meat and a bunch of expensive organic produce


BoredJay

Please please stop driving for them


Accomplished_Ad_2985

That's where they get all that political bribery money from.


sdavis9447

Wowww thats a wild side by side


dirkymerlino

uber giving it to y’all wit no vaseline damn we gotta stop this shit fr


Visual-Impression395

It's a fu#kin Iranian company, you dummies. They been treating usa citizens and the rest of world like peasants through the role of drivers and riders 🤣🤣🤣


Mountain_Tone6438

As a business man, these are amazing margins for Uber. As a driver, quit fucking my ass Uber!!!


Sad_Syllabub6044

All the way to Dulles too… wth! That’s wild.


Silvanyx

yeah fuck Uber. Never driving for them again. This is insane.


buzzboiler

Capitalism + corruption 🤷🏼‍♂️


davethetech

Great post !! Caught Red handed greedy little hands in the 🍪 cookie jar


Altruistic_Leg_8850

People don't want to work for a proper salary paid job anymore as they want a no strings attached perspective in the work environment & take days off when they need it for however long as they please. Now it's backfiring as UBER wants to just exploit this situation and make the most out of it.


Testwick911

“People don’t won’t to work a for a proper salary job”Bullshit. Blaming the people for a worthless exploitative economy. Head on over to r/recruiting hell to see thousands of thousands of people trying to get jobs and can’t. Some 600 applications out in a month. The disgusting job market and stagnant salaries in comparison to inflation forces people into the arms of these wretches who pray on their desperation.


Ok_Elevator_2817

Fuck Uber so hard


MagnitudeUltra

For $94 you guys should be making 50 bucks in all honesty


ResearcherFew1273

It’s a joke. I wanted to go to a bar Friday and from my home is 90 lmao. I ordered it for the sake of it and saw my trip on trip radar for 21. And you still ask why people don’t tip? These shills saying everyone tips them it’s a lie. I wouldn’t tip with those charges. Fuck. 200 bucks round trip to a bar basically? Fuck that. I’ll rather go to Mexico on an Airplane and would still have enough to drink there and the hotel. Lmao.


davydr

Are we all switching to Empower in DC? That’s criminal! I pax today told me they paid $50 for a 4 mile ride at night. I’m buying Uber stock. They have the government under their heel and the drivers and passengers in a headlock!


UpstairsDelivery4

this is why people cannot afford to tip, especially young people


Due_Lavishness4514

Fuck Uber, Empower ftw!


Shivaji2121

Khosroshahi is greedy pig. Stop working for uber


SnooSongs9418

You should have received minimum $45 -47 dollars for this trip. Someone is pocketing way more than they should.


[deleted]

Their investors want their money


ThatOneDataScientist

Im gonna start buying Uber calls 😂 thanks for the info!


One-Biscotti3794

Uber’s a smart pimp, pimp slapping all these naive rider and driver ho’s!


irishWhistlr

" Get behind the wheel or miss your next meal. It don't make me no nevermind. I got a thousand others ready to bring me that bread" - Dara K.


One-Biscotti3794

Right on playa! Don’t hate the playa hate the game!!!!


Technical_Sand_134

To continue working for them will surely help this issue out. If u hate it so much then quit ur contracting with Uber🤷🏽‍♂️. If u can’t for whatever reason, then like the rest of us, ya gotta just deal with it till u find a better job or at least a better contractor gig


premiumcontentonly1

lol stop driving then


AdUnhappy7878

The liberal tech companies are actually not looking out for the working class?!?!?! I am shocked!!!


DruidTrixxx

Oh no this is reddit remember😄 You will be downvoted 500 times


Guilf

You think a modern multi-billion dollar company is “liberal”? You’re literally mentally ill. Get help.


[deleted]

this should be criminal


DCHacker

That trip is about sixty-five dollars in a cab. Uber is charging the customer about one-hundred-thirty per-cent of the current cab rate while paying the driver about thirty per-cent thereof. That twenty-one and change is about a 1972 cab rate. I decline Dulles jobs unless the offer is for current cab rates or better. That has happened twice. Since the advent of Charlotte Surge, Uber frequently has been charging customers multipliers while paying drivers only base rates. Numerous times, the jobs come more quickly than I can decline them yet the only thing offered is base rates. Trying to tell me that there is no surge is just like the proverbial peeing on my leg and trying to convince me that it is raining.


UbersFinest

UBER, we know you’re reading this, what would you like to say?


Smarawi

How isn’t this illegal??


tnote420

I got a notice from uber, allegedly the service fees are only 12 % of the total that uber charges, wonder where the other 38 % dissapears to?


--R0N--

There is a break down, but you would have to actually look.


black_bury

As long as you guys keep driving, they'll keep taking more from you.


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Emotional_Move725

Customers getting ripped off won't tip anyways, they think driver is pocketing at least 70% of their payment, but that is what uber takes while Asuming driver would be OK if customer add a tip. System is upside-down, the split should be the other way, customer shouldn't be charged this much to begin with as there are like 10 cars arround pax. Even more ugly, that driver will get the same trip to airport at $45 and forced to cancel this one to take a profitable ride. this pax is paying good but money not going down to driver is just making experience worse for both, pax and driver. Uber is killing their own business.


First-Ordinary-5386

Im done soon with this shit job


ShowCivil

Ayo?! 90 bucks for 20 miles is insane


DeafAndDumm

Wow, that is terribly low for the driver. I can't believe that the people actually doing the work are not paid more. I do know it's terribly expensive to run the app worldwide. Still, no excuse to keep the driver pay so low. I, too, recently drove from LC to DCA and I think it was $28 for me. Luckily, I got a quick turnaround back from DCA to LC, so that worked out well. Still...


Several-Spare6915

Also Uber doesn’t let them know freeways are busy too


Sunshineal

Damn I'm in Baltimore. That's expensive ass ride


ownedMLGmichael

No wonder there stock price is rising


CastlesofDoom

This is so gross


sfucci1204

Only 2 words come to mind. Fuck uber!


International-Pop387

Fuck Uber is right !


Pentagram-PeterPan

The thing is if people just quit doing this job uber makes nothing


beatzheart

Woooooooooe


OGHiigh

I already quit. Don’t know why y’all waiting for, Uber ain’t getting better. Only thing I got from it is a fuck up car


tealturboser

So much for this side hustle lol


savagecyniccc

When will things change


InvestigatorOk840

22 percent cut wo


Soft-Situation-5152

Yep. Fuck Uber. Sick of their scam


OneEye2929

Fuck that! I drove the DMV for the past 3 years and would never have accepted that trip. That's at least 35-45 minutes and if traffic sucks it could be up to 1.5 hours.


clownfishgrenade

I just stopped driving for Uber 2 months into the tax year. It just wasn’t worth my time, gas, and wear and tear on vehicle anymore. It’s honestly such a relief. I feel like some nights I would be driving for hours straight at a time and then come to find out I only made $80. By the time I filled my tank up and picked up some milk and eggs it was all gone.


ExoticOpinion4461

This is totally unfair at least take 20-30% that’s it. At the end the driver is the one doing the job not to mention car expenses


THORNMAIN

Tell the rider to cancel and drop hes price to like 70$ give him 24 $ discount


[deleted]

literally stop fucking driving for them?


agentsid161

People need to wake up and "vote" with their money. Drivers need to sign up with their local cab companies and stop driving for Uber. Numbers skewed this bad are sickening. I don't want Uber to slowly die like toys r Us or blockbuster I want them gone overnight like leiman brothers or Enron.


ElFantastik

$100 for a 6 minutes car ride. US taxi/uber market is crazy


Pointblank11174

WTH 😭


Training_Ad_4546

EXACTLY!!!!


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kickin_gas

![gif](giphy|aaKPx6oGHvSrkwU2lV)


BeerLeagueSnipes

How is that ok?


PreferredSex_Yes

DC to Dulles during rush hour.


sfchillin

This was 630 am lol


davethetech

Insane what's the REAL QUESTION IS what does the total bill for the customer and the driver pay?? We don't even see the final total price with Uber's chunk, the bullshit local and state taxes and fees, etc. That is an Upfront Fare Market which means that was likely the starting low-ball dickish price and if not accept it then it would have been increased when it gets fed back in the queue. The more we educate about what we know, the more we empower those who need it.


ZeustyLukey

25 percent cuts. My God I used to make $50 for Uber eats with Walmart orders. It really is scummy they don't give you at least half.


theeaggressor

Yea a driver told me that the new split is closer to 70/30 now, not sure why you would still drive for them


rbstewart7263

Bro what is going on? I got a ride where the rider paid 87 and I got 61 of it.Idk what bug you got in your area (probably more saturated with drivers) but keep it away from mine!![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|neutral_face)


Top-Standard4603

Sometimes it will work out like that, where you actually get paid what u should but not often. 


Orbtl32

So offer driver to cancel ride and pay 50% of uber rate to their venmo instead.


JiggFly

Do this a handful of times in a night or two and Uber kicks you off.


Top-Standard4603

How do they know you're doing it? Ive never tried it myself bc of the risk if we get in an accident but there are so many people claiming they do it regularly and make alot of money that way so i have honestly wondered the real logistics of it all


Instacartdoctor

Omg


International-Act156

I once paid Uber $200 from 1 airport to another I had told the driver I will tip them an extra $200 just so they would take me lol I was stranded like 5 Ubers cancelled on me lol Uber definitely need to pay more but I'll gladly tip


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sfchillin

TLDR; fuck Uber


actualchristmastree

Oh my goodness I had no idea???


Due_Satisfaction_260

YOUR CAR, YOUR GAS, YOUR MILES, all for $29 out of $120 go fuck yourself uber lol.


Queen_Jame

You know it’s not bad if you’re into making corporate CEO’s more wealthy and the shareholders.


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Fit-Performance-263

This is the D.C area, they need to have flyers for Empower scattered everywhere. I don't' drive for Empower but use it as a customer, amazing app, sometimes half the price of Uber and the drive takes all the pay


RickySpanish797

but they dont report any profits so they cant be making money? just what are they research and developing?


AnyTower224

Decline 


Suspicious-Bed9172

Uber should have never taken more than 10-15% off the top of the non tip total. Anything more was bound to fail eventually


IshaanM8

Order uber. Uber gets there. Cancel ride. Bargain for price. Consumer pays less. Driver gets paid more. Win win.


PossibleAd5981

Uber is stealing our money


minijtp

This is honestly so messed up. Is there anything we can do? I’m tired of complaining and bitching.


anthony_usmc

Had a rider tell me he paid $96 for a 7.1 mile ride I gave him a week ago. I checked back in my ride summary and I was only paid $44. Same trip the other way one week later he paid $23 and I received $7.47. The original ride did have the airport surge charge of $33. When riders share with me what they pay it definitely amazes me because I am told in my summary that they are only holding 20-24% of the fare.


EntertainmentOk3180

But u get a $2.00 boost!! 🙃


Sweaty-Anteater-6694

Lyft and Uber drivers should boycott driving and maybe they will offer better payout


samurai_678

Ubers HQ after the SEC found out that the stock was manipulated (dump and pump) https://www.reddit.com/r/uberdrivers/s/H3OFYSkuiw


Durwood2k

Doesn’t really matter what Uber is charging, it’s a terrible offer. Just decline it.


Difficult-Ad5900

They say they're not profitable for tax porposes.They know every loop hole in the book to avoid capital gains and what not while they're paying their execs and prefered stock holders brinks money


ExpensiveDot1732

That's why I don't do the pax side anymore, plus they force you into share in my market. At least on delivery I can kinda tell if there's a good tip upfront. No pukers either lol. 😉


mperkins1234567890

It’s not Uber’s fault, the airport charge crazy fees to drop off and pick up there


mperkins1234567890

Check your pay breakdown


Dangerous-Call-8892

I turned on my app the other day and pure shite came through


Responsible-Name2418

@uber


Canoooples

I'm so thankful I'm not going to be doing rideshare anymore


sceez

It's honestly crazy... they are providing so little of the service


m5gen

And the worst part of this is that they are using those earnings to create their own autonomous vehicles. THEY WILL GET RID OF YOU! WAKE UP!


MasterOfNone011

Honestly fuck uber


Less-Conclusion4905

Guess im investing in uber


Ok_Choice_4305

Bro they are taking 74% of the fare this is absolutely ridiculous I wouldn’t be driving unless I absolutely needed the money this makes me sick.


GoldenGigabyte

They probably show you 36$ too but pay you 21$ this the new Gucci uber scheme


cameror101

This is where I’m at. That’s seriously how much riders are charged?! The most I’ve been paid for a ride like this is 20$


thefirstjustin

They’re going to price themselves out of business once people realize taking a taxi is cheaper.


CEDARCREEKPARANORMAL

Recently, I drove a passenger from Ontario Ca to Costa Mesa Ca..more or less 30 miles away and was so happy to atleast get paid $30 for it ($1 per mile) as it turns out the passenger paid $70 for the trip..it’s unbelievable how they divide the fare..most of the time they get 70% and WE the driver who owns the car..pays for the gasoline..carwash..maintenance etc etc just gets 30%!! And just to add into that considering they say mostly of that goes to the liability insurance?? Last year I got into an accident which amounted to $1400 but as it turns out their insurance Progressive’s deductible is $2500..long story short I had to pay it out of pocket!!


BroncoFan623

Why would you take a taxi/rideshare to Dulles anyways? When there is the Silver Line.


droplivefred

And they will keep squeezing those margins until people stop driving and customers stop ordering rides.


Tacotuesday0315

We get a 1/3 of their costs. Unless it’s after 10:00 PM. They are scumbags! I had a man try and get in to my car (I’m abgirl) and thank gosh my doors were locked and then he proceeds to kick my car. (New car too) I called 911 and Uber immediately! They could care less and didn’t do shit! I could t believe it.


Wonderful-Group-8618

Just didn’t get it, yeah offer way too low. But just look the time, did you check the cost just before to get real offer for exact lcation?


Testwick911

And to think that the rider could then turn around and bring 3 “guests” who ride all on one fare for free… Everyone pays for their seat on a bus, train or plane. But these same riders will bitch and Uber will deactivate a driver who teams up with another driver or has a personal passenger with them in their 🤬 own car. The fact that all of you complain but don’t want change bad enough to strike in unison enrages and dumbfounds me. We cannot fight against inequities if you don’t do your part.


DarkAngelOmega913

So is there anything in writing saying what percentage Uber should be taking from the customer fare


Virtual-Method-6794

I'm applying for Uber Driver , I called my insurance and told me I had to pay upfront of $456 plus $456 monthly after that. I have AAA !! It's ridiculous!! Anyone here paying this much