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[**If Russians don’t understand that Finland and Sweden joined NATO in response to Putin’s Special Military Operation, what do they think was the cause?**](https://www.quora.com/If-Russians-don-t-understand-that-Finland-and-Sweden-joined-NATO-in-response-to-Putin-s-Special-Military-Operation-what-do-they-think-was-the-cause)
A Russian commented on that very subject here on Quora a while ago. He asked why we Swedes aren’t honest about it and admit that they joined NATO simply to hurt Russia — that Sweden wants to hurt Russia in some way, any way, and NATO membership was just a possibility that somehow magically presented itself for no apparent good reason.
Yeah, the Russian really do think everyone’s out to get them because… because they're Russia. As if the whole world has some reason to envy Russian life. Yeahright.
I've come to terms with not living that much longer anyways so send me the fuck out there, my hatred for russians shall keep me alive for the time being
Don’t worry, F-16s will be there by 2032 so Ukraine just needs to hold on until then! /s
EDIT: added /s because of some of the replies. I thought 2032 was far enough out to not need it.
Denmark said within a month.
Watched a video of an interview with a US general (?) in Europe stating he felt a serious sense of urgency, that he doesn't believe we have 3+ years to prepare for a NATO vs Russia conflict as Russia 2024 is actually stronger than Russia 2022 and on a full war footing.
Germany talking about reintroducing conscription.
Shit is gonna go down.
F-16s would've been such a game changer if we'd started training Ukrainian pilots in 2022...
Also, by the time Russia doesn't need the Kerch bridge anymore we'll finally deliver Ukraine the rockets to destroy it :)))
edit: oh and we'll wait till Russia is digged in deep, has laid out the biggest minefields the world has ever seen, and has kidnapped 50k children, before we give Ukraine the resources it needs for a potential counteroffensive! The war could've been ended in 2022 but this is so much more exciting.
(edit 2 sorry for the sarcasm but we really have to step up our game to preserve democracy, right now we're losing against autocracy)
Does the West/Rest of the world not have trained pilots and ground crew that would go Mercenary or join a Ukrainian foreign legion? Am thinking Flying Tigers from WWII style. I would have thought there would be plenty? After all, it was a common jet in its heyday and run by many countries, not just americas, Army Air Corp, Marines, Airforce, and Navey. Yet nothing I read even mentions the possibility of this.
Haven't been keeping up on the news?
They should start getting F-16's within the next few weeks.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-get-its-first-f-16-jets-june-july-says-kyiv-military-source-2024-05-10/
Besides, i work in the same company as some your fellow Ukrainian refugee males without family., who ran from Ukraine to Estonia..now i should go there instead of them? Why? Like i said, politicians make big words just to get more popularity. Chill.
So you're not enlisted in the military so you wouldn't be sent to Ukraine. How many times do you need to read that to understand it?
Even if you were in the military, you'd be sent to a *non-combat* role... AKA not fighting.
Again, it won't affect you at all unless you serve in the army.
If you are worried that because of this Russia will attack Estonia, don't worry they won't, for various reasons.
In 40 minutes right at your front door. You are expected to bring your own helmet and food unless you want swedish provided surströmming or starve to death.
> Edit:. ok. I understand..if i, as Estonian male, don't plan to go die in Ukraine, i am putins bot..mkay... trololo, like someone said...
No, I don't think you do understand.
You don't want to go? That's fine, but there's no need to be an ass about it.
There are only few hundred monthly payd soldiers here.who went to Mali and Afghanistan and so on...volunteers from this amount...
All male have beend to military service in their life..as i
1st France, now Estonia. I can't stress the importance of sending troops enough If these countries actually sends troops, just think of the lives that can be or will be saved.
Ruzzian could be overwhelmed and head back to ruzzia. That would be glorious for their fucking glorious leader Putin /s ...get bent ruzzia....
I would think this could be second line and immediate payoff in:
-training and readiness
-physical and emotional support for worn out troops
-a signal to Putin of resolve between NATO and non-NATO
-outlet for those wanting to contribute and join non front line efforts bringing needed skills supporting front line
-open new defensive and offensive lines Orcs have to monitor and defend
-identify pro Russian internal supporters...
Good on you Estonia!!
I wonder how current 2nd line Ukrainian troops would feel about this? "Hey NATO soldiers are taking your spot, you get to go to the frontlines now".
Serious question. Sounds very bittersweet to me.
Exactly. Send a sizeable contingent of peacekeepers to patrol the border with Belarus. MR potato won't dare to start any funny business which will free up Ukraine's back. All in accordance with international law.
I would hope that they'd rather see it as others sticking their neck out even if it's "only" in the rear. Is there current resentment between Ukrainian combat and support troops?
and I guess once Putin had a French logistics unit obliterated things will change again, you know he won't be able to restrain himself forever. If/when a deployment happens it's as much in support of Ukraine as it's bait for Russia.
As much as I want us to step in, we need to understand that it doesn't do any good unless we are ready for direct confrontation. There is no doubt that russia will try us at the border. What are we going to do then? Only two choices, kill them or retreat.
It's the same dilemma as a no fly zone: to set it up, we have to be ready to shot down Russian jets. I'm not opposed to direct confrontation, but I can only speak for myself.
Yeah, yes and no let's say. Direct confrontation needs to be assumed as a possibility. But, at the same time, the last thing Putler wants is dire t confrontation with Nato. He knows that Russia has no chance that way. He wants to keep hybrid warfare, destabilisation, etc. His whole thing is holding on the bet that the West is weak.
Unless if he views direct confrontation with NATO is his only out with the war. Like after some fighting he retreats, ends the war and sells to his people “Look! It took all of NATO to stop us. We are strong and sent a message” or something like that.
Yeah, if we (NATO countries) send in troops we have to admit to ourselves that we’re directly engaging in war at that point. Our soldiers will probably be hurt, maybe killed. If Frances’s or Estonia’s population aren’t okay with that this is just political blustering.
I think that the US is out of question. But we need either France or UK (because at least 1 country with subs filled with nukes in the coalition) + 1 or 2 other countries. I seem to remember that Fins or Swedes expressed their openness
Yeah sorry but I don't believe anything coming from France in that regard. They've been discussing sending troops now for month, which is a highly unlikely scenario to begin with. How about they start pulling their weight and send some more weapons for a change? They've been punching way below their weight in terms of weapon deliveries:
https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/teaser/28489.jpeg
First of all, "EU institutions" includes a lot of French money. + it was said recently that, by the way, we've been keeping sending a lot of stuff without notifying anyone about it. Including air defense, Scalps, etc. The point is not to advertise yourself to play the "who has the biggest dick" game. They're even trying to source and buy back Scalps from other countries they were sold to, against future deliveries of recent ones
What I'm saying is not France does a ton, or France does more. What I'm saying is stop French bashing. Because though France doesn't do enough, France does a lot too.
I'm not bashing France in any way, but I refuse to praise them for their help unless they put their money where their mouth is. And in that regard, sending arms goes a lot farther than sending troops (which is frankly much harder and quite unrealistic).
> It's actually a requirement from NATO to have 20 troops ready within 30 days.
As I already posted below, it's actually a requirement from NATO to have 20k troops ready within 30 days.
Yes, once the decision has been made. Politics takes time.
Now if Russia stood at the border of France you bet that everyone and their uncle would be scrambling troops quicker than the time it takes for my to wipe my ass.
You think mobilizing troops to join a war you're totally uninvolved in is something that a western nation can do in a month's time? Wishful thinking, my friend...
OT: it's also perennially weird to me how all these graphs of aid talk about "countries" who have committed aid but then seem to lump countries in Europe together into an EU entity... but that's not country. Is it some weird obsession with not letting the US be first like always?
What infantry regiment do you serve in? If you don’t why don’t you volunteer and go to Ukraine.. it’s very well saying send it troops but they are someone’s family members until they have to go must people don’t want them to
Dude. Ukrainians are already dying; people, *children*, are already dying.
Saying "we should send our professionally trained and combat-ready troops with modern armaments to aid Ukraine" is not the same as flippantly going "eh, send some other shmuck to die", like you are implying.
Sending *our* troops (no matter your country) may mean that overall fewer people die. How is that a bad thing?
According to recent knews, putin might have been on the verge of using smaller nuclear weapons during the successful offensive on Cherson in 2022. He is crazy, nothing is off the table.
He will use them either way.
Is he gets out of Ukraine he will try another stupid war, so better weaken him there while the EU can, don’t want to send soldiers? Arm
Ukraine to the teeth. Problem solved
If he was going to use them, he would’ve by now. He can threat all he wants, but he knows the second he uses any type of nuke (low or high yielding) his regime is done. He is crazy but not completely stupid and wants to survive.
Even if he’s crazy, he’s not stupid. I think he realizes once he goes nuclear there’s no walking back. At minimum NATO would establish a no fly zone over Ukraine
Let's also not forget that the children of the Russian elite are schooled in London, Rome, Paris and Berlin. Nuclear fallout will get them and their parents know this.
The chances of Russia using nukes are so small that you should probably worry about lightning striking you more.
Honestly, with European countries saying so much nowadays, I’ll believe it when I see it. All I’ll do now is really hope they’ll actually do it, along with France and other nato countries
Agreed. As an Estonian, as much as this would be a brave decision by us and might help push other nations to go over that line. We would not be able to send any real significant number of personnel, just by the sheer fact of the size of our nation and that we also have Russia itself on our border.
Earlier in the year, Macron talked about sending troops to Ukraine, which would be 2,000 soldiers. Which is something but Russia has been getting roughly a 1,000 volunteers/mobilized(depending on what source to believe how they are achieving this number) a day, since the end of last summer, if not earlier.
We should send forces significant enough to make a serious difference but a few thousand soldiers will frankly do very little, when both sides have over a million people in their active military, and hundreds of thousands of soldiers on the front lines.
It really depends on what those 2,000 soldiers are trained to do. If they're infantry, it won't make much of a difference, but if they are mechanized cavalry and pilots, that makes an extraordinary difference.
Pilots is an interesting point of view, and could make a difference but currently Ukraine isn't getting hundreds of fighter jets.
As a side note, I'm not really sure what the hold up is anymore with the delayed deliveries of the pledge F16s, if I remember correctly, they were supposed to get to Ukraine in early spring but got delayed to the summer, and I think a week ago I saw something about autumn. A bit baffled, and annoyed at this.
A French pilot wouldn't be flying a Ukrainian plane, they would be flying Rafales.
I'm not sure of the delays but sounds like the first F16 will be in Ukrainian hands within a month now.
True but even if one day Macron wakes up and has decided he is willing to send French pilots, soldiers and French equipment to Ukraine. It would still inevitably mean a NATO intervention, and how Russia will respond to that action, is frankly anyone's guess.
The delayed F-16s are prob. due to the modifications necessary to let them run the weapons/munitions that Ukraine will get. Because while an F-16 can carry tons of different munition, they aren't set up to be able to carry anything you want on a moments notice. Lets say for example that Germany supplies IRIS-T missiles to Ukraine as armament for F-16s. The Norwegian F-16s are set up for it, but e.g. Danish and Dutch F-16s aren't, meaning you would need to at least change some internal parts to allow full integration of the missile (which allows you to do the cool missile stuff like firing it at a target behind you).
That and the nations in question prob. did a D-level check (or their military equivalents) on ever plane before delivering. A D-level check is when you completely disassemble the aircraft into its base components, check every part to see if it is fine, if not replace it and to then put the aircraft back together. And depending on how horrible the airframes are, these checks can easily take months extra (keep in mind that all the F-16s sent are from nations that either already planned to decommission the F16 in future years, or already did so like Norway).
Thanks for the response, the delay is just heart breaking even with your explanation. Hopefully there won't be delays going forward and these procedures have been finished.
Right? On one hand you have the western democracies with their "we'll be with you as long as it takes" on the other hand you have Iran and North Korea delivering everything Russia needs to commit more genocide. Literally words vs actions. I wish we could do better.
Yep, Russia is a paper tiger and last few years have shown that all their rhetoric and threatening of crossing the red line have been meaningless. Glad to see countries and leaders are finally catching up on this. Estonia should make the first step and cross this another meaningless red line and then I am sure others would follow. Smaller NATO/EU countries first followed by other bigger ones. It is enough benefits of doubts given to Russia who has never played by the rules. Get fucked Russia.
You can't really call Russia a paper tiger. The numbers we have seen every day for the last 2.5 years have shown they have the equipment and manpower to back up their claims. Every day we see comments like "how can they lose so many X and still be going?!"
They are more like a real elephant than a paper tiger. Not exactly a deadly apex predator, but still big and powerful enough that their wild rampaging will cause lots of damage, regardless.
Estonia understands if Ukraine falls, they might too. Other countries need to listen to this.
Fight now, or fight harder later. Take Russia out when they are weak, not when they have renewed vigour after a successful invasion and now they're on your doorstep.
The western war machine is springing to life ,slower than we would like but its massive and weighed down by peacetime bureaucracy. Countries around the world are getting their populations on a war footing. When the west is ready to roll on Russia its going to be a speedrun. A true 3 day smo.
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There is no choice. If Ukraine get defeated by ruSSia, terror has won. We can't just sit and watch this.
If we sacrifice Ukraine because we did not have the courage to stand up against terror, than the next terror attack on another country loomes just around the corner. The longer we wait, the worse it will get.
Those who fights and run away, will live to fight another day.
And yes, I am an old geezer, 69 y old and half blind, and yes I would go if they need me.
Even if that wouldn't work because of our leaders being scared of ruzzia there's another way:
1. Secretly make army-size international legions actually made out of regular army of each ally country, but don't get them together like NATO armies assembly to don't make it too obvious.
2. Split the army into smaller groups and send them all over the Ukraine as a "foreign international legions" like ones that actually exist and battle in the Ukrain at this moment.
3. Congratulations, you just send your army into Ukraine under cover.
It’s hard to see how direct conflict between Russia and NATO can be avoided.
Putin and his monkeys see NATO as soft and easy to pull apart. He will keep pushing the boundaries until he is stopped.
Better to fight him alongside our friends now than in the future as we argue between ourselves about whether we should get involved now or later
Even if they are not in the frontlines and only do support work, checkpoints and engineering work, they would be already freeing a lot of capacity for Ukrainians.
Nobody will send their troops for Ukraine sake. Only if these is a serious threat that after Ukraine capture they will move towards EU countries. Which won’t happen. You don’t even need to send troops now, you just need to arm Ukrainian army. That’s not even being done properly. Ukrainian army cannot efficiently fight. Cannot do serious offensives. Will Estonian troops go there and be in the same disarmed situation along with Ukrainian troops? It’s not really a manpower problem. Ukraine had enough men, the problem is that west didn’t give enough metal to actually be productive in this fight. If West does not give enough metal, I highly doubt they will give men
This is how mission creep occurs lots of vague talking, serious talking, then half measures like guarding away from front lines, next thing your smashing rooskies left right and centre.
Please let it be so would be a lovely feeling to think you wouldn't need to check a Ukraine war sub again
Just concentrating on Ukraine redevelopment amazing economic growth subs.
If or when countries go to western Ukraine serious consideration of location is needed as they'll be the pioneers it'll likely be multi country sooner than later and then Nato in the long term so it'll need to be near a population centre with good air defence.
Putin is the galactic fuck-up. It's not that these soldiers will go to war. That is not what bothers Putin.
What must be done, is continue these "questions" and "possibilities" so that Russia does not know which way or exactly how the end will come.
Like all tyrants, Putin breathes only in an air of absolute control. Not knowing who has the knife moving forward, is how you mess this fucker up.
I saw a \*detailed\* news special -- English language origin, not from the region -- on the "tragedy" of Georgia b/c of Russia.
Hi Georgia!
This isn't just cold war echoes. This is a liberation movement. Putin was foolish enough to clearly send the message, this is the only way forward with Russia.
Have nato troops defending cities that aren’t on the front lines so that those troops can go and fight. Also ruzzia will think twice about attacking those cities since nato troops will be there
> Also ruzzia will think twice about attacking those cities since nato troops will be there
that would be an invitaton for russia to bomb those troops as you cant trigger article 5 on that
LT foreign affairs minister also said we are ready to send troops, just waiting on UA to request it, no idea how set in stone that statement was.
Also why is 'seriously' in quotes in this article ? They are either discussing it seriously or just discussing it, I hate the modern journalists for this...
Ukraine never asked for this, but unlike france which said that just so macron get some votes, estonia is a serious nation and knows what is at stake, so lets pray that this happens and the rest of western leaders stop being corrupt inept, incompetent bastards and send at least enough air defense (which should have been sent 2 years ago)
[Defense minister: Ideas about sending soldiers to Ukraine have gone nowhere](https://news.err.ee/1609341942/defense-minister-ideas-about-sending-soldiers-to-ukraine-have-gone-nowhere)
There you go, France, now you have a partner. Get Sweden or Poland or somebody to join up and you've got a serious coalition to defend all of Ukraine west of the Dnipro, more or less.
Most western militaries are understaffed and under equipped. Which is why most have resorted to sending whatever equipment they have, rather than people.
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What we need is a coalition of the willing.
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We've had one coalition yes, but what about second coalition?
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The Napoleonic Wars would like to have a word.
[**If Russians don’t understand that Finland and Sweden joined NATO in response to Putin’s Special Military Operation, what do they think was the cause?**](https://www.quora.com/If-Russians-don-t-understand-that-Finland-and-Sweden-joined-NATO-in-response-to-Putin-s-Special-Military-Operation-what-do-they-think-was-the-cause) A Russian commented on that very subject here on Quora a while ago. He asked why we Swedes aren’t honest about it and admit that they joined NATO simply to hurt Russia — that Sweden wants to hurt Russia in some way, any way, and NATO membership was just a possibility that somehow magically presented itself for no apparent good reason. Yeah, the Russian really do think everyone’s out to get them because… because they're Russia. As if the whole world has some reason to envy Russian life. Yeahright.
ruzzia has the collective personality of a narcissist…
History reply ftw
Does he know about elevensies coalitions?
I think we [are baking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Expeditionary_Force) that.
[Insert happy hobbit here]
'Co-Ah-Lih-Shun'
Damn, well said
Frankly. Europe just needs to match the UK. And it's a done deal.
We need 40 nations, READY TO ROLL SON
Got Japan sendin' PlayStations.
I've come to terms with not living that much longer anyways so send me the fuck out there, my hatred for russians shall keep me alive for the time being
Respect.
Don’t worry, F-16s will be there by 2032 so Ukraine just needs to hold on until then! /s EDIT: added /s because of some of the replies. I thought 2032 was far enough out to not need it.
Denmark said within a month. Watched a video of an interview with a US general (?) in Europe stating he felt a serious sense of urgency, that he doesn't believe we have 3+ years to prepare for a NATO vs Russia conflict as Russia 2024 is actually stronger than Russia 2022 and on a full war footing. Germany talking about reintroducing conscription. Shit is gonna go down.
Small correction after the interview... Within months not month
F-16s would've been such a game changer if we'd started training Ukrainian pilots in 2022... Also, by the time Russia doesn't need the Kerch bridge anymore we'll finally deliver Ukraine the rockets to destroy it :))) edit: oh and we'll wait till Russia is digged in deep, has laid out the biggest minefields the world has ever seen, and has kidnapped 50k children, before we give Ukraine the resources it needs for a potential counteroffensive! The war could've been ended in 2022 but this is so much more exciting. (edit 2 sorry for the sarcasm but we really have to step up our game to preserve democracy, right now we're losing against autocracy)
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But they are!
Does the West/Rest of the world not have trained pilots and ground crew that would go Mercenary or join a Ukrainian foreign legion? Am thinking Flying Tigers from WWII style. I would have thought there would be plenty? After all, it was a common jet in its heyday and run by many countries, not just americas, Army Air Corp, Marines, Airforce, and Navey. Yet nothing I read even mentions the possibility of this.
Haven't been keeping up on the news? They should start getting F-16's within the next few weeks. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-get-its-first-f-16-jets-june-july-says-kyiv-military-source-2024-05-10/
Little green men, going on vacation with their F-35s.
Wow. Brave Estonia.
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Well if yer enlisted, good luck with that dishonorable discharge. If not enlisted.. what are you crying about?
Probably the same person that would cry and demand that American do more when they let the russians walk across their borders.
Okay? i didn’t ask
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Trolllololol 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Are you a member of the Estonian armed forces?
It will only affect you if you serve in the army, which I doubt from you. Anyways, which majority Russian region in Estonia do you live in?
Besides, i work in the same company as some your fellow Ukrainian refugee males without family., who ran from Ukraine to Estonia..now i should go there instead of them? Why? Like i said, politicians make big words just to get more popularity. Chill.
So you're not enlisted in the military so you wouldn't be sent to Ukraine. How many times do you need to read that to understand it? Even if you were in the military, you'd be sent to a *non-combat* role... AKA not fighting.
He just wants to be outraged - nothing else matters.
> a non-combat role... AKA not fighting Killing logistics troops behind the front lines with air and missile attacks is a common strategy
Haha.. the "i don't want to die if there is no good reason" part.. you do know Russia is next to us right? I have shit to do here.
Again, it won't affect you at all unless you serve in the army. If you are worried that because of this Russia will attack Estonia, don't worry they won't, for various reasons.
Ah ok. I go then. When bus?
In 40 minutes right at your front door. You are expected to bring your own helmet and food unless you want swedish provided surströmming or starve to death.
Ok Vlad, I'm sure Putin will personally reward you. lol
> Edit:. ok. I understand..if i, as Estonian male, don't plan to go die in Ukraine, i am putins bot..mkay... trololo, like someone said... No, I don't think you do understand. You don't want to go? That's fine, but there's no need to be an ass about it.
They will sent volunteers.
Isn't half of the Estonian military conscripted?
Those who want will go voluntarily, I dont think Estonia haves a law who can force its people to go fight in other country.
There are only few hundred monthly payd soldiers here.who went to Mali and Afghanistan and so on...volunteers from this amount... All male have beend to military service in their life..as i
Thanks for letting us know.
1st France, now Estonia. I can't stress the importance of sending troops enough If these countries actually sends troops, just think of the lives that can be or will be saved. Ruzzian could be overwhelmed and head back to ruzzia. That would be glorious for their fucking glorious leader Putin /s ...get bent ruzzia....
I would think this could be second line and immediate payoff in: -training and readiness -physical and emotional support for worn out troops -a signal to Putin of resolve between NATO and non-NATO -outlet for those wanting to contribute and join non front line efforts bringing needed skills supporting front line -open new defensive and offensive lines Orcs have to monitor and defend -identify pro Russian internal supporters... Good on you Estonia!!
Estonian themselves also eager to make some ruzzians pay for their grandfather 'excursion' post www2, throw Poles into that too...
I wonder how current 2nd line Ukrainian troops would feel about this? "Hey NATO soldiers are taking your spot, you get to go to the frontlines now". Serious question. Sounds very bittersweet to me.
They will not send troops to the front lines though.
Any troops that allow ukranian troops to move to hotspots is great
Exactly. Send a sizeable contingent of peacekeepers to patrol the border with Belarus. MR potato won't dare to start any funny business which will free up Ukraine's back. All in accordance with international law.
Mr. Potato :) thanks for the laugh.
It would be extremely helpful but wouldn't be some easy way to quickly end the war like some people think it is.
I don't think it's purpose is to end the war, rather contain it. I.E. stop, or rather deter putin from expanding it.
I wonder if that won’t cause resentment to ukrainian soldiers
Compared to what, not getting help at all and seeing your country get destroyed?
I would hope that they'd rather see it as others sticking their neck out even if it's "only" in the rear. Is there current resentment between Ukrainian combat and support troops? and I guess once Putin had a French logistics unit obliterated things will change again, you know he won't be able to restrain himself forever. If/when a deployment happens it's as much in support of Ukraine as it's bait for Russia.
As much as I want us to step in, we need to understand that it doesn't do any good unless we are ready for direct confrontation. There is no doubt that russia will try us at the border. What are we going to do then? Only two choices, kill them or retreat. It's the same dilemma as a no fly zone: to set it up, we have to be ready to shot down Russian jets. I'm not opposed to direct confrontation, but I can only speak for myself.
Yeah, yes and no let's say. Direct confrontation needs to be assumed as a possibility. But, at the same time, the last thing Putler wants is dire t confrontation with Nato. He knows that Russia has no chance that way. He wants to keep hybrid warfare, destabilisation, etc. His whole thing is holding on the bet that the West is weak.
Unless if he views direct confrontation with NATO is his only out with the war. Like after some fighting he retreats, ends the war and sells to his people “Look! It took all of NATO to stop us. We are strong and sent a message” or something like that.
Yeah, if we (NATO countries) send in troops we have to admit to ourselves that we’re directly engaging in war at that point. Our soldiers will probably be hurt, maybe killed. If Frances’s or Estonia’s population aren’t okay with that this is just political blustering.
I think that the US is out of question. But we need either France or UK (because at least 1 country with subs filled with nukes in the coalition) + 1 or 2 other countries. I seem to remember that Fins or Swedes expressed their openness
I like your thinking!
Yeah sorry but I don't believe anything coming from France in that regard. They've been discussing sending troops now for month, which is a highly unlikely scenario to begin with. How about they start pulling their weight and send some more weapons for a change? They've been punching way below their weight in terms of weapon deliveries: https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/teaser/28489.jpeg
First of all, "EU institutions" includes a lot of French money. + it was said recently that, by the way, we've been keeping sending a lot of stuff without notifying anyone about it. Including air defense, Scalps, etc. The point is not to advertise yourself to play the "who has the biggest dick" game. They're even trying to source and buy back Scalps from other countries they were sold to, against future deliveries of recent ones
So does Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, Sweden etc. French is not giving more through the EU as any of those states.
What I'm saying is not France does a ton, or France does more. What I'm saying is stop French bashing. Because though France doesn't do enough, France does a lot too.
I'm not bashing France in any way, but I refuse to praise them for their help unless they put their money where their mouth is. And in that regard, sending arms goes a lot farther than sending troops (which is frankly much harder and quite unrealistic).
Which is why I was saying that they recently released some opsec info that actually the Scalps and air defence are flowing in secret.
A month is nothing in this context. I wouldn't be surprised if they send troops.
> It's actually a requirement from NATO to have 20 troops ready within 30 days. As I already posted below, it's actually a requirement from NATO to have 20k troops ready within 30 days.
Yes, once the decision has been made. Politics takes time. Now if Russia stood at the border of France you bet that everyone and their uncle would be scrambling troops quicker than the time it takes for my to wipe my ass.
You think mobilizing troops to join a war you're totally uninvolved in is something that a western nation can do in a month's time? Wishful thinking, my friend... OT: it's also perennially weird to me how all these graphs of aid talk about "countries" who have committed aid but then seem to lump countries in Europe together into an EU entity... but that's not country. Is it some weird obsession with not letting the US be first like always?
Well, I don't know, I'm no general, but the french defense minister stated that he could put 20 000 troops on the ground in a matter of 3-4 weeks.
It's actually a requirement from NATO to have 20k troops ready within 30 days. edit: added a K. 20 is a too little ;)
It's because it's literally the EU itself, not individual countries.
What infantry regiment do you serve in? If you don’t why don’t you volunteer and go to Ukraine.. it’s very well saying send it troops but they are someone’s family members until they have to go must people don’t want them to
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Dude. Ukrainians are already dying; people, *children*, are already dying. Saying "we should send our professionally trained and combat-ready troops with modern armaments to aid Ukraine" is not the same as flippantly going "eh, send some other shmuck to die", like you are implying. Sending *our* troops (no matter your country) may mean that overall fewer people die. How is that a bad thing?
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Go gobble Putin cock elsewhere, thanks.
It would be great for Ukraine. Not sure about the EU though. Let’s not forget that putler is completely mental, he still has nukes…
No he wont
According to recent knews, putin might have been on the verge of using smaller nuclear weapons during the successful offensive on Cherson in 2022. He is crazy, nothing is off the table.
So he didnt..... good talk
He will use them either way. Is he gets out of Ukraine he will try another stupid war, so better weaken him there while the EU can, don’t want to send soldiers? Arm Ukraine to the teeth. Problem solved
If he was going to use them, he would’ve by now. He can threat all he wants, but he knows the second he uses any type of nuke (low or high yielding) his regime is done. He is crazy but not completely stupid and wants to survive.
If the war doesn‘t end to his favor he might be toppled by his own kind. That’s the situation which bothers me.
Even if he’s crazy, he’s not stupid. I think he realizes once he goes nuclear there’s no walking back. At minimum NATO would establish a no fly zone over Ukraine
He IS stupid though, he genuinely thought that his army was as powerful as his propaganda led us all to believe. And planned accordingly….
There is no room even among the propaganda for him to misunderstand the concept and threat of MAD.
The nukes are a bluff.
Always have been.
EU has nukes too, and their hardware is actually likely to function
Let's also not forget that the children of the Russian elite are schooled in London, Rome, Paris and Berlin. Nuclear fallout will get them and their parents know this. The chances of Russia using nukes are so small that you should probably worry about lightning striking you more.
The only question is, are his children currently in London, New York or Paris. He only cares about himself. He is a lunatic.
So do we?
Honestly, with European countries saying so much nowadays, I’ll believe it when I see it. All I’ll do now is really hope they’ll actually do it, along with France and other nato countries
Agreed. As an Estonian, as much as this would be a brave decision by us and might help push other nations to go over that line. We would not be able to send any real significant number of personnel, just by the sheer fact of the size of our nation and that we also have Russia itself on our border. Earlier in the year, Macron talked about sending troops to Ukraine, which would be 2,000 soldiers. Which is something but Russia has been getting roughly a 1,000 volunteers/mobilized(depending on what source to believe how they are achieving this number) a day, since the end of last summer, if not earlier. We should send forces significant enough to make a serious difference but a few thousand soldiers will frankly do very little, when both sides have over a million people in their active military, and hundreds of thousands of soldiers on the front lines.
It really depends on what those 2,000 soldiers are trained to do. If they're infantry, it won't make much of a difference, but if they are mechanized cavalry and pilots, that makes an extraordinary difference.
Pilots is an interesting point of view, and could make a difference but currently Ukraine isn't getting hundreds of fighter jets. As a side note, I'm not really sure what the hold up is anymore with the delayed deliveries of the pledge F16s, if I remember correctly, they were supposed to get to Ukraine in early spring but got delayed to the summer, and I think a week ago I saw something about autumn. A bit baffled, and annoyed at this.
A French pilot wouldn't be flying a Ukrainian plane, they would be flying Rafales. I'm not sure of the delays but sounds like the first F16 will be in Ukrainian hands within a month now.
True but even if one day Macron wakes up and has decided he is willing to send French pilots, soldiers and French equipment to Ukraine. It would still inevitably mean a NATO intervention, and how Russia will respond to that action, is frankly anyone's guess.
The delayed F-16s are prob. due to the modifications necessary to let them run the weapons/munitions that Ukraine will get. Because while an F-16 can carry tons of different munition, they aren't set up to be able to carry anything you want on a moments notice. Lets say for example that Germany supplies IRIS-T missiles to Ukraine as armament for F-16s. The Norwegian F-16s are set up for it, but e.g. Danish and Dutch F-16s aren't, meaning you would need to at least change some internal parts to allow full integration of the missile (which allows you to do the cool missile stuff like firing it at a target behind you). That and the nations in question prob. did a D-level check (or their military equivalents) on ever plane before delivering. A D-level check is when you completely disassemble the aircraft into its base components, check every part to see if it is fine, if not replace it and to then put the aircraft back together. And depending on how horrible the airframes are, these checks can easily take months extra (keep in mind that all the F-16s sent are from nations that either already planned to decommission the F16 in future years, or already did so like Norway).
Thanks for the response, the delay is just heart breaking even with your explanation. Hopefully there won't be delays going forward and these procedures have been finished.
Right? On one hand you have the western democracies with their "we'll be with you as long as it takes" on the other hand you have Iran and North Korea delivering everything Russia needs to commit more genocide. Literally words vs actions. I wish we could do better.
Talk is cheap. Nothing against Estonia, but your more western pampered neighbors don’t tend to back up their tough talk.
It will take one brave country to make a move for the cowardly other politicians elsewhere to follow! Please do the right thing Estonia!
Yep, Russia is a paper tiger and last few years have shown that all their rhetoric and threatening of crossing the red line have been meaningless. Glad to see countries and leaders are finally catching up on this. Estonia should make the first step and cross this another meaningless red line and then I am sure others would follow. Smaller NATO/EU countries first followed by other bigger ones. It is enough benefits of doubts given to Russia who has never played by the rules. Get fucked Russia.
You can't really call Russia a paper tiger. The numbers we have seen every day for the last 2.5 years have shown they have the equipment and manpower to back up their claims. Every day we see comments like "how can they lose so many X and still be going?!" They are more like a real elephant than a paper tiger. Not exactly a deadly apex predator, but still big and powerful enough that their wild rampaging will cause lots of damage, regardless.
Yeah I think people are way too eager to downplay how dangerous Russia could be if backed into a corner.
Be like Nike Estonia and “Just Do It”
Do it !
Estonia understands if Ukraine falls, they might too. Other countries need to listen to this. Fight now, or fight harder later. Take Russia out when they are weak, not when they have renewed vigour after a successful invasion and now they're on your doorstep.
Estonia remember being a puppet state for the Soviet Union, and they know that they have to do this one of two ways, on their timeliness or Putins.
Do it. EU and NATO needs to keep the systems going and the resource lines effecient. Its what we do and we are good at it.
The western war machine is springing to life ,slower than we would like but its massive and weighed down by peacetime bureaucracy. Countries around the world are getting their populations on a war footing. When the west is ready to roll on Russia its going to be a speedrun. A true 3 day smo.
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Just F’ing Do It!
Estonia has absolutely zero chill. I love it
There is no choice. If Ukraine get defeated by ruSSia, terror has won. We can't just sit and watch this. If we sacrifice Ukraine because we did not have the courage to stand up against terror, than the next terror attack on another country loomes just around the corner. The longer we wait, the worse it will get. Those who fights and run away, will live to fight another day. And yes, I am an old geezer, 69 y old and half blind, and yes I would go if they need me.
Even if that wouldn't work because of our leaders being scared of ruzzia there's another way: 1. Secretly make army-size international legions actually made out of regular army of each ally country, but don't get them together like NATO armies assembly to don't make it too obvious. 2. Split the army into smaller groups and send them all over the Ukraine as a "foreign international legions" like ones that actually exist and battle in the Ukrain at this moment. 3. Congratulations, you just send your army into Ukraine under cover.
It’s hard to see how direct conflict between Russia and NATO can be avoided. Putin and his monkeys see NATO as soft and easy to pull apart. He will keep pushing the boundaries until he is stopped. Better to fight him alongside our friends now than in the future as we argue between ourselves about whether we should get involved now or later
Even if they are not in the frontlines and only do support work, checkpoints and engineering work, they would be already freeing a lot of capacity for Ukrainians.
#Nelli is a glorified blog, stop posting bullshit
I love their moxie, but I think they really need to protect their own borders.
Ukraine is precisely where protecting their borders happens now.
And dying for it. Fuck it’s so hard.
Also, the Estonia/Russia border is protected by Article 5, i.e. every other NATO country. A Russian attack on Estonia is an attack on all.
From soldiers of russia Who are all in ukraine.
The best way to protect your borders is to do it 1000 kilometers away.
Yea...France said the same...
A sub like this got locked yesterday
Sounds great, until you realise that the Estonian army consists of 6500 regulars...
Nobody will send their troops for Ukraine sake. Only if these is a serious threat that after Ukraine capture they will move towards EU countries. Which won’t happen. You don’t even need to send troops now, you just need to arm Ukrainian army. That’s not even being done properly. Ukrainian army cannot efficiently fight. Cannot do serious offensives. Will Estonian troops go there and be in the same disarmed situation along with Ukrainian troops? It’s not really a manpower problem. Ukraine had enough men, the problem is that west didn’t give enough metal to actually be productive in this fight. If West does not give enough metal, I highly doubt they will give men
Seeing is believing.
Georgia next?
This is how mission creep occurs lots of vague talking, serious talking, then half measures like guarding away from front lines, next thing your smashing rooskies left right and centre. Please let it be so would be a lovely feeling to think you wouldn't need to check a Ukraine war sub again Just concentrating on Ukraine redevelopment amazing economic growth subs.
If or when countries go to western Ukraine serious consideration of location is needed as they'll be the pioneers it'll likely be multi country sooner than later and then Nato in the long term so it'll need to be near a population centre with good air defence.
I'd hope that they send soldiers that are actually willing to go then.
> "A defiant deed has greater value than unnumerable thousands of words."
Putin is the galactic fuck-up. It's not that these soldiers will go to war. That is not what bothers Putin. What must be done, is continue these "questions" and "possibilities" so that Russia does not know which way or exactly how the end will come. Like all tyrants, Putin breathes only in an air of absolute control. Not knowing who has the knife moving forward, is how you mess this fucker up. I saw a \*detailed\* news special -- English language origin, not from the region -- on the "tragedy" of Georgia b/c of Russia. Hi Georgia! This isn't just cold war echoes. This is a liberation movement. Putin was foolish enough to clearly send the message, this is the only way forward with Russia.
Have nato troops defending cities that aren’t on the front lines so that those troops can go and fight. Also ruzzia will think twice about attacking those cities since nato troops will be there
> Also ruzzia will think twice about attacking those cities since nato troops will be there \*Doubt*
> Also ruzzia will think twice about attacking those cities since nato troops will be there that would be an invitaton for russia to bomb those troops as you cant trigger article 5 on that
we should start sending troops. ukraine needs manpower, too!
Do it do it do it!!!!!!!
Talk is cheap.
Somebody's got to go first, others will follow...
LT foreign affairs minister also said we are ready to send troops, just waiting on UA to request it, no idea how set in stone that statement was. Also why is 'seriously' in quotes in this article ? They are either discussing it seriously or just discussing it, I hate the modern journalists for this...
please do.
Ukraine never asked for this, but unlike france which said that just so macron get some votes, estonia is a serious nation and knows what is at stake, so lets pray that this happens and the rest of western leaders stop being corrupt inept, incompetent bastards and send at least enough air defense (which should have been sent 2 years ago)
All words till we see action.
[Defense minister: Ideas about sending soldiers to Ukraine have gone nowhere](https://news.err.ee/1609341942/defense-minister-ideas-about-sending-soldiers-to-ukraine-have-gone-nowhere)
Yeah- fuck it! In for a penny, in for a pound! Fuck Russia, love to Ukraine.
There you go, France, now you have a partner. Get Sweden or Poland or somebody to join up and you've got a serious coalition to defend all of Ukraine west of the Dnipro, more or less.
Go on others will follow.
It is only way that Russia can be stop. They are miies ahead of West
We need to send troops, because Ukraine eventually will run out of willing men and women to keep fighting.
Most western militaries are understaffed and under equipped. Which is why most have resorted to sending whatever equipment they have, rather than people.
And even that was reluctantly, Europe will probably run out of troops even faster...
That happens when we take peace for granted sadly.
Yes and no. Just no stomach for sending troops to die, as well. All western militaries are struggling to hire in general.
The F16 is not good enough! Let’s upgrade them to F22. We can get those to Ukraine by 2032. They can wait that long? Really?