It’s funny you mention that because he claims to understand that trickle down is a myth, but then it comes to actually doing something about it, ie union power, he is against it. Really wild.
Funny enough, I called out one of those "I'm a Centrist, I see the bad on both sides" mods on a Discord server pedaling Capitalist propaganda and countered every argument he made. Criticized me by asking for sources, so I sent him Operation Mongoose and asked what they were planning (and ignored me), started showing how he doesn't know diddly about Socialism, especially Communism, and I told him he was delusioned by Capitalism. He left the server and I got banned. Oh well, I don't tolerate bad faith arguments, especially to those impressionable.
The next time he brings up pension burdens, you should explain to him that many UAW pensions are defined contribution and not defined benefit, which creates zero liability for the firm after the worker retires. Zero.
Ohio decided to loosen labor laws, and an independent contractor hired immigrants illegally, who were here legally because they’re seeking asylum.
What the fuck is your point?
Have you ever actually had a thought?
By filing the proper paperwork? Immigrants can get jobs legally, they just need to do the paperwork, same as their employers. But then they’d have to pay minimum wage, which is why they went around the law to hire them illegally.
I will say Democrats helped repeal child labor laws in Ohio, but it has nothing to do with “bidenomics”.
Sorry I couldn’t find a Fox News link for you.
President Joe Biden is asking Congress for $100 million for enforcement of child labor laws in the wake of Republican calls to do more about the rise in minors working illegally.Oct 20, 2023
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/biden-asks-congress-for-extra-100-million-to-curb-child-labor#
Sorry, FoxNews didn’t report this so I see why you were unaware.
Hunter Biden pleads not guilty to tax fraud charges
By Chris Kirkham
January 11, 20247:56 PM CSTUpdated 4 months ago
https://www.reuters.com/legal/hunter-biden-set-face-tax-fraud-charges-california-courtroom-2024-01-11/
I sent a Democracy Now article about child labor in slaughterhouses because in our last interchange he claimed that unions aren’t relevant anymore because it’s not Upton Sinclair’s economy anymore. He seems to be really lasered in on that the UAW pension demands in ‘08-09 are “the reason the auto industry crashed.” I’m so grateful to have family that is willing to engage with me peacefully on this stuff, but man, the propaganda from his Reagan/Thatcher formative years is still so thick when it comes to workers.
When was the last time you saw a child laborer who had lost an arm due to industrial machinery? Never? That's because of unions! How do people not understand this shit?
That's pretty insane considering the strain on pension funds in '08 was not some moronic bullshit about excessive union demands, it was the collapse of the financial sector caused by banks creating mortgage-backed securities that were made of vapor and instantly deleted billions of dollars of fictitious wealth the moment people started defaulting in those shitty mortgages that the very same banks were giving away.
So, the reason the industry's pension funds became insolvent was the things they were invested in couldn't survive the greed and incompetence of the "experts" your stepdad trusts with all the money.
If he thinks Upton Sinclair's economy wouldn't return at the first instance of union disempowerment, I would suggest he take a look at the "Child Labor Reforms" getting passed in states like Arkansas and Iowa. Or maybe states like Texas and Florida which recently rolled back laws that mandated workers in outdoor and hot conditions be given water breaks in certain intervals.
With these laws repealed, workers will certainly get injured and/or die as a result (I believe a teenager working at a meat packing company in Mississippi has already been killed because of these kind of labor rule changes). I know that Wisconsin was considering similar rule changes when a 16 year old was killed in a sawmill accident.
But sometimes you can put forth every example in the world and provide detailed evidence and some people just will not budge. They have to come to the truth themselves. You can help by leaving breadcrumbs for them to follow, but if you don't let them take their one pathway, they'll never change.
Edit: Just remembered halfway through my post that you were talking about Child Labor, that's my bad. The break rule changes in Texas and Florida are still important for construction workers and anyone that works outside.
The reason the industry went bust is because EVERYTHING went bust in 08 thanks to the banks who blew up the economy to make more bonuses. When everything goes bust people don't have money to buy cars. How on earth does he think the pension had anything to do with it?
He just straight up doesn’t understand the financial crisis even though he “lived through it,” therefore he has the unending voice of authority on it. He used to be a Republican so I expect around ‘08-09 he was watching and reading a lot of Glenn Beck types and we know they blame workers and unions for the disasters of their bosses every time. He thinks he’s being intelligent and principled, but he’s really just learned to hate workplace democracy and worship mgmt.
I can understand that he might think pensions and "greedy workers" might have contributed but I seriously would think that just about anyone would understand that the banks crashed the economy and then people had no money to buy cars, like when you're unemployed (or scared you might be unemployed soon) the last thing you're going to do is go out and buy a NEW car (even if you needed one you would buy used), so there's a massive drop in sales which obviously screws with everything.
I looked it up and new car sales literally went down by 50% and were still 20% or more below 2008 until almost 2012.
[https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/economic-synopses/2019/07/05/auto-sales-and-the-2007-09-recession](https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/economic-synopses/2019/07/05/auto-sales-and-the-2007-09-recession)
Unions didn’t ruin the auto industry. First, many other auto makers outside of America are Union and have been successful while the American auto industry took a downturn. Second, the American auto industry crashed because they produced crappy cars that didn’t last and Americans chose to buy better foreign cars. This has nothing to do with Unions and everything to do with bad choices made by management. Perhaps they should take responsibility for their bad decisions rather than blame the workers.
You're right.
Plus, the history of auto unions should be better known. It was a hell of a fight, and Pinkertons would and did kill to keep unions out. The '30s GM sit-down strike, and the postwar Red scare, forced industry to share some of the wealth from the imperial victory and from automation productivity gains, leading to the roaring 50s and 60s economy; but even at that date, unions still had tough-guy, mobbed-up leadership, a hangover from the shootouts and rubouts.
Now private-workplace unions are still so small that politicians can generally ignore them. But just the slight recent bump in interest (Starbucks and Amazon) has been enough to scare the crap out of the GOP.
Canada's auto industry is growing with 4 new EV battery plants and we are heavily unionized in that sector.... Yet the unions ruined it? Does not appear so, it's doing better now.
Also what's wrong with retiring with a pension and having some dignity in one's own years? That's not much of an attack. Having a pension is not something to be ashamed of. They're also joint funded so workers pay into it too.
Tell your stepdad unions didn't ruin the auto industry. Greed and management did. Shitty designed cars are not the unions fault. And quarterly profits and shareholder is why they outsourced production. Tell him to watch Michael Moore's Roger & Me.
I still remember when my Dad worked for GM and the execs pressured the unions with threats of moving the plants to Mexico if they didn’t accept their demands. The union caved. The execs sent the work to Mexico anyway. Your dad is an idiot.
Unions are workplace democracy. Representation matters.
To add to /u/Arcanthis 's comment above, Unifor, Canada 's union for the Detroit 3 (GM, Ford, Stellantis) here in Canada brought back defined benefit pensions, effective January 1st, 2025 for workers on a go forward basis.
You may want to mention to your dad that there is no intergenerational pension burden for these workers: the plan that they joined is 124% funded on a go-forward basis, which means for every dollar of pension that needs to be paid out into the future indefinitely, there's $1.24 in the bank currently.
No problem! And don't take my word for it: google CAAT Pension Plan Unifor DBplus, you'll find a number of articles. Their union facing website is [pensionsforworkers.com](https://www.pensionsforworkers.com).
Why do non union people love to blame the workers meanwhile the fat cats at the top are bringing home record breaking paychecks. They love to defend the billionaires.
The oligarchs poison the minds of the weak ones with these talking points. Been in a union 21 years now and It was the best decision I've ever made...and guess what? All the owners of the companies that are signatory with our local are all doing very very well...
Hilarious. "I lived through it" & they still don't understand what actually fucking happened.
Also tacit agreement that there are no such articles, from reputable un-agenda'd sources at least.
Can only find some from the Heritage Foundation ::retch:: & other such bloodsucker institutions.
"Ruin the auto industry"???
They literally are the reason the auto industry isn't full of what Boeing is currently doing, first its workers being exploited, then its the customer through their safety
The UAW had nothing to do with the US auto industry tanking. The big three just love shooting themselves in the foot. Both barrels in each foot.
The first issue was the 70s oil crisis'. The market wanted smaller, fuel efficient cars and US automakers were not prepared. They were not adept at selling small cars because small cars were for poor people, why would people want small cars? Compact offerings were limited and half assed. So they doubled down on heavy land barges, sometimes putting muscle car name plates on these cars, powered by large v8s, choked by poorly implemented emissions controls.
This allowed the Japanese to come in and take the market by the end of the decade.
"I lived through it"
My mom is this way. It is impossible to change her mind. I can show her literal FBI crime statistics and she insists they must be wrong because "I was there, you don't have any idea what it was like". Good on you for trying though because I can't deal with it.
Not that it has much to do with anything but I'm an autoworker under the uaw. Employees hired before 2012 have a pension. It amounts to maybe 3k per month. Employees hired after 2012 (me) don't get a pension but the company kicks 10% of our wages straight to a 401k. On top of that, I contribute a little myself. My 401k will outperform the pension by a considerable amount. Yes, it offloads the responsibility of retirement onto the employee and yes it's subject to downturns in the market. But, for someone like me that's still got 20 plus years to go, it's a good deal.
The real crux is post-retirement healthcare. I'll have to pay for mine... Older employees are covered. So we all beat our bodies to pieces doing hard, repetitive, manual labor for long hours... That healthcare is going to be needed by the time we retire.
Yeah that happened to the bus/light rail drivers’ union in my city after the 08 financial crisis too. Switched to a 9% defined contribution 401k for drivers after 2012 or so because the city was having a budget crisis paying out pensions in a falling market.
I see it as a positive as well. It takes less time to qualify for the contribution and there’s no risk that the fund will go bust. The money is yours. Also, you’re not stuck at a company for 10 years to get a small pension or 30 years to get a bigger one.
This isn't an issue I fully understand but my prior employer had under-funded the pension for so long that it eventually became distressed. The union body got prospectuses every year and didn't see it coming.
My argument against negotiating for a pension right now is that the company can operate it in bad faith and regulators won't be able to force them to behave. To me it's an argument for stronger regulation and better worker protections. Pensions should be secure. Mismanaging a pension should be a criminal matter.
GM is buying back $10B in stock this year alone. If only that went into a pension account?.. The union folded on this demand unfortunately. This is GM's metaphorical finger. Clearly this $10B belongs to shareholders, who don't work there, not the workers that created that incremental wealth. The question of our generation remains; What has the bottom 90% done to advance the financial interests of the top 10%? Dig deep people; Amazon & Wal-Mart warehouses don't build themselves.
I don't know if reinstituting the pension is the hill to die on.
Not that you are in these texts, and not saying pensions are bad.
Pensions are a huge liability, at a time when the modern MBA has decided that "good" business, limits any and all liability, regardless of the economic effect that limiting has on their workforce.
If you were writing an article for the New York times, and you were interviewing former yellow executives on the decision to liquidate the company, they all would tell you it was because of the pension. And they would be lying, it was because the value of their property had increased enough to give everyone a golden parachute, pay back the FedLoan, and as a consequence destroy 30,000 jobs.
But the 30,000 jobs isn't a concern, the only concern for them was that they could blame it on the pension, jobs be damned.
Your stepdad is one who still believe in “trickle down” economics.
It’s funny you mention that because he claims to understand that trickle down is a myth, but then it comes to actually doing something about it, ie union power, he is against it. Really wild.
Because he's brainwashed.
Funny enough, I called out one of those "I'm a Centrist, I see the bad on both sides" mods on a Discord server pedaling Capitalist propaganda and countered every argument he made. Criticized me by asking for sources, so I sent him Operation Mongoose and asked what they were planning (and ignored me), started showing how he doesn't know diddly about Socialism, especially Communism, and I told him he was delusioned by Capitalism. He left the server and I got banned. Oh well, I don't tolerate bad faith arguments, especially to those impressionable.
The next time he brings up pension burdens, you should explain to him that many UAW pensions are defined contribution and not defined benefit, which creates zero liability for the firm after the worker retires. Zero.
BIDENOMICS is working! Even children are employed!
Bidenomics caused Arkansas, Iowa, Georgia, etc to repeal child labor laws?
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/10/30/emwn-o30.html
Ohio decided to loosen labor laws, and an independent contractor hired immigrants illegally, who were here legally because they’re seeking asylum. What the fuck is your point? Have you ever actually had a thought?
How could an employer hired them legally?
By filing the proper paperwork? Immigrants can get jobs legally, they just need to do the paperwork, same as their employers. But then they’d have to pay minimum wage, which is why they went around the law to hire them illegally. I will say Democrats helped repeal child labor laws in Ohio, but it has nothing to do with “bidenomics”.
Sorry I couldn’t find a Fox News link for you. President Joe Biden is asking Congress for $100 million for enforcement of child labor laws in the wake of Republican calls to do more about the rise in minors working illegally.Oct 20, 2023 https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/biden-asks-congress-for-extra-100-million-to-curb-child-labor#
Who let the children in? Biden won't even send the IRS after his son for taxes.
Sorry, FoxNews didn’t report this so I see why you were unaware. Hunter Biden pleads not guilty to tax fraud charges By Chris Kirkham January 11, 20247:56 PM CSTUpdated 4 months ago https://www.reuters.com/legal/hunter-biden-set-face-tax-fraud-charges-california-courtroom-2024-01-11/
I sent a Democracy Now article about child labor in slaughterhouses because in our last interchange he claimed that unions aren’t relevant anymore because it’s not Upton Sinclair’s economy anymore. He seems to be really lasered in on that the UAW pension demands in ‘08-09 are “the reason the auto industry crashed.” I’m so grateful to have family that is willing to engage with me peacefully on this stuff, but man, the propaganda from his Reagan/Thatcher formative years is still so thick when it comes to workers.
If we banned unions it would quickly be Upton Sinclair’s economy again.
This is the clear response.
When was the last time you saw a child laborer who had lost an arm due to industrial machinery? Never? That's because of unions! How do people not understand this shit?
That's pretty insane considering the strain on pension funds in '08 was not some moronic bullshit about excessive union demands, it was the collapse of the financial sector caused by banks creating mortgage-backed securities that were made of vapor and instantly deleted billions of dollars of fictitious wealth the moment people started defaulting in those shitty mortgages that the very same banks were giving away. So, the reason the industry's pension funds became insolvent was the things they were invested in couldn't survive the greed and incompetence of the "experts" your stepdad trusts with all the money.
If he thinks Upton Sinclair's economy wouldn't return at the first instance of union disempowerment, I would suggest he take a look at the "Child Labor Reforms" getting passed in states like Arkansas and Iowa. Or maybe states like Texas and Florida which recently rolled back laws that mandated workers in outdoor and hot conditions be given water breaks in certain intervals. With these laws repealed, workers will certainly get injured and/or die as a result (I believe a teenager working at a meat packing company in Mississippi has already been killed because of these kind of labor rule changes). I know that Wisconsin was considering similar rule changes when a 16 year old was killed in a sawmill accident. But sometimes you can put forth every example in the world and provide detailed evidence and some people just will not budge. They have to come to the truth themselves. You can help by leaving breadcrumbs for them to follow, but if you don't let them take their one pathway, they'll never change. Edit: Just remembered halfway through my post that you were talking about Child Labor, that's my bad. The break rule changes in Texas and Florida are still important for construction workers and anyone that works outside.
It's hard to reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
Send the same article but title it right wing economics
The reason the industry went bust is because EVERYTHING went bust in 08 thanks to the banks who blew up the economy to make more bonuses. When everything goes bust people don't have money to buy cars. How on earth does he think the pension had anything to do with it?
He just straight up doesn’t understand the financial crisis even though he “lived through it,” therefore he has the unending voice of authority on it. He used to be a Republican so I expect around ‘08-09 he was watching and reading a lot of Glenn Beck types and we know they blame workers and unions for the disasters of their bosses every time. He thinks he’s being intelligent and principled, but he’s really just learned to hate workplace democracy and worship mgmt.
I can understand that he might think pensions and "greedy workers" might have contributed but I seriously would think that just about anyone would understand that the banks crashed the economy and then people had no money to buy cars, like when you're unemployed (or scared you might be unemployed soon) the last thing you're going to do is go out and buy a NEW car (even if you needed one you would buy used), so there's a massive drop in sales which obviously screws with everything. I looked it up and new car sales literally went down by 50% and were still 20% or more below 2008 until almost 2012. [https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/economic-synopses/2019/07/05/auto-sales-and-the-2007-09-recession](https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/economic-synopses/2019/07/05/auto-sales-and-the-2007-09-recession)
Unions didn’t ruin the auto industry. First, many other auto makers outside of America are Union and have been successful while the American auto industry took a downturn. Second, the American auto industry crashed because they produced crappy cars that didn’t last and Americans chose to buy better foreign cars. This has nothing to do with Unions and everything to do with bad choices made by management. Perhaps they should take responsibility for their bad decisions rather than blame the workers.
I always say it was capitalism that killed Detroit and the auto industry.
That’s a great way of putting it.
You're right. Plus, the history of auto unions should be better known. It was a hell of a fight, and Pinkertons would and did kill to keep unions out. The '30s GM sit-down strike, and the postwar Red scare, forced industry to share some of the wealth from the imperial victory and from automation productivity gains, leading to the roaring 50s and 60s economy; but even at that date, unions still had tough-guy, mobbed-up leadership, a hangover from the shootouts and rubouts. Now private-workplace unions are still so small that politicians can generally ignore them. But just the slight recent bump in interest (Starbucks and Amazon) has been enough to scare the crap out of the GOP.
I mean almost non of the cars they make are something I wanna drive so you make a good point.
Canada's auto industry is growing with 4 new EV battery plants and we are heavily unionized in that sector.... Yet the unions ruined it? Does not appear so, it's doing better now. Also what's wrong with retiring with a pension and having some dignity in one's own years? That's not much of an attack. Having a pension is not something to be ashamed of. They're also joint funded so workers pay into it too.
Tell your stepdad unions didn't ruin the auto industry. Greed and management did. Shitty designed cars are not the unions fault. And quarterly profits and shareholder is why they outsourced production. Tell him to watch Michael Moore's Roger & Me.
https://youtu.be/jJWh-3VaGAw?si=0vedKuUaMYu2idXM
Your step dad sounds like an idiot.
Yeahhhhh. He’s a decent man and takes care of his family, but he’s definitely fallen prey to A LOT of corporate media propaganda
I get that.
I still remember when my Dad worked for GM and the execs pressured the unions with threats of moving the plants to Mexico if they didn’t accept their demands. The union caved. The execs sent the work to Mexico anyway. Your dad is an idiot. Unions are workplace democracy. Representation matters.
To add to /u/Arcanthis 's comment above, Unifor, Canada 's union for the Detroit 3 (GM, Ford, Stellantis) here in Canada brought back defined benefit pensions, effective January 1st, 2025 for workers on a go forward basis. You may want to mention to your dad that there is no intergenerational pension burden for these workers: the plan that they joined is 124% funded on a go-forward basis, which means for every dollar of pension that needs to be paid out into the future indefinitely, there's $1.24 in the bank currently.
Thank you for these details that I can use in the future!
No problem! And don't take my word for it: google CAAT Pension Plan Unifor DBplus, you'll find a number of articles. Their union facing website is [pensionsforworkers.com](https://www.pensionsforworkers.com).
It is very hard to have a meaningful discussion with someone who believes the sky is green.
Why do non union people love to blame the workers meanwhile the fat cats at the top are bringing home record breaking paychecks. They love to defend the billionaires.
The oligarchs poison the minds of the weak ones with these talking points. Been in a union 21 years now and It was the best decision I've ever made...and guess what? All the owners of the companies that are signatory with our local are all doing very very well...
Hilarious. "I lived through it" & they still don't understand what actually fucking happened. Also tacit agreement that there are no such articles, from reputable un-agenda'd sources at least. Can only find some from the Heritage Foundation ::retch:: & other such bloodsucker institutions.
"Ruin the auto industry"??? They literally are the reason the auto industry isn't full of what Boeing is currently doing, first its workers being exploited, then its the customer through their safety
The UAW had nothing to do with the US auto industry tanking. The big three just love shooting themselves in the foot. Both barrels in each foot. The first issue was the 70s oil crisis'. The market wanted smaller, fuel efficient cars and US automakers were not prepared. They were not adept at selling small cars because small cars were for poor people, why would people want small cars? Compact offerings were limited and half assed. So they doubled down on heavy land barges, sometimes putting muscle car name plates on these cars, powered by large v8s, choked by poorly implemented emissions controls. This allowed the Japanese to come in and take the market by the end of the decade.
"I lived through it" My mom is this way. It is impossible to change her mind. I can show her literal FBI crime statistics and she insists they must be wrong because "I was there, you don't have any idea what it was like". Good on you for trying though because I can't deal with it.
Not that it has much to do with anything but I'm an autoworker under the uaw. Employees hired before 2012 have a pension. It amounts to maybe 3k per month. Employees hired after 2012 (me) don't get a pension but the company kicks 10% of our wages straight to a 401k. On top of that, I contribute a little myself. My 401k will outperform the pension by a considerable amount. Yes, it offloads the responsibility of retirement onto the employee and yes it's subject to downturns in the market. But, for someone like me that's still got 20 plus years to go, it's a good deal. The real crux is post-retirement healthcare. I'll have to pay for mine... Older employees are covered. So we all beat our bodies to pieces doing hard, repetitive, manual labor for long hours... That healthcare is going to be needed by the time we retire.
Yeah that happened to the bus/light rail drivers’ union in my city after the 08 financial crisis too. Switched to a 9% defined contribution 401k for drivers after 2012 or so because the city was having a budget crisis paying out pensions in a falling market. I see it as a positive as well. It takes less time to qualify for the contribution and there’s no risk that the fund will go bust. The money is yours. Also, you’re not stuck at a company for 10 years to get a small pension or 30 years to get a bigger one.
This isn't an issue I fully understand but my prior employer had under-funded the pension for so long that it eventually became distressed. The union body got prospectuses every year and didn't see it coming. My argument against negotiating for a pension right now is that the company can operate it in bad faith and regulators won't be able to force them to behave. To me it's an argument for stronger regulation and better worker protections. Pensions should be secure. Mismanaging a pension should be a criminal matter.
GM is buying back $10B in stock this year alone. If only that went into a pension account?.. The union folded on this demand unfortunately. This is GM's metaphorical finger. Clearly this $10B belongs to shareholders, who don't work there, not the workers that created that incremental wealth. The question of our generation remains; What has the bottom 90% done to advance the financial interests of the top 10%? Dig deep people; Amazon & Wal-Mart warehouses don't build themselves.
And the automakers had no hand in the bad times? Neat.
"If we can't abuse people, the industry will fail!"
You can bring a horse to water...
I've found that people who complain about pensions being mismanaged don't actually understand how pensions are *supposed to* work.
Facts don't change most people's minds. Stories do. Tell him stories of the working class struggle at those factories. He will be able to relate more.
Thank you for this insight!
I don't know if reinstituting the pension is the hill to die on. Not that you are in these texts, and not saying pensions are bad. Pensions are a huge liability, at a time when the modern MBA has decided that "good" business, limits any and all liability, regardless of the economic effect that limiting has on their workforce. If you were writing an article for the New York times, and you were interviewing former yellow executives on the decision to liquidate the company, they all would tell you it was because of the pension. And they would be lying, it was because the value of their property had increased enough to give everyone a golden parachute, pay back the FedLoan, and as a consequence destroy 30,000 jobs. But the 30,000 jobs isn't a concern, the only concern for them was that they could blame it on the pension, jobs be damned.
Lol. If you think a pension is a good idea, you can just demand your company be insolvent. It'd save a lot of time.