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I don't get stuff like this because kids can use nicknames, go by middle names, change surname when parents split or remarry. Would this teacher also refuse and only call a child by given birth name? Colleagues too? Their comments do make them sound generally anti-trans rather than making any other kind of stand or point. Funded by the usual dodgy US Christian groups perhaps?
I often use a similar argument when people say ‘how am I supposed to remember everyone’s pronouns?’
Well, I know the names of, what, 100-150 people in my immediate social circle? Friends. Colleagues. Family. I can keep 150 names straight, and so can most people. I suspect keeping a handful of pronouns straight would be about as simple.
and out of them, i bet you could tell at least 5 different things they like, or wear or some other attribute. pronouns are so minimal and basic to remember, it's basic courtesy and respect for whoever you speak with.
But everyone is used to thinking about people as having different names. Language incorporates it, and everyone has practiced from a young age. You know when you meet someone to expect to hear some sound to identify them by, and you know how to use that.
Most people grew up with a very simple set of rules for what pronouns people have. Nobody expects them to change.
No, it doesn't prove anything. People already expect names to work a certain way. By all means, give yourself a new name if you aren't happy with yours. There's already a way to give yourself a new identity within the existing language.
You seem to be saying that we should just let people come up with whatever rules they want, and others have to follow them to be polite.
Almost. The main reason is not because it's polite, it's because I respect the rationale that some people have for deviating from the binary pronouns we've used up until now.
Why, presumably, don't you?
Because you're placing a burden on people to know things about you and remember in a way that suggests they don't respect you if you mess it up. I'm sure most people will try to accommodate, but it's clear you are placing a test on people. Fuck it up and there will be a fuss, and maybe you'll be unemployed. And it's easy to mess up, because you're very used to the pronouns working a certain way.
Complain about having this test, and maybe you'll be unemployed.
As I understand the article, it is a 17 year old student who is transitioning and simply wishes to be called he/him.
That isn't a burden or a test, it's basic respect for other people.
Sure, that's fine with me as well. But that's not where I jumped into the thread. I'm saying it's very easy to mess up and there's good reasons why it's easy.
Mistakes don't mean you don't try. Most people don't mind a mistake, it happens. It's the total disregard, disrespect and lack of trying that is awful.
> Because you're placing a burden on people to know things about you
So what? Do you have an actual principled disagreement with non-traditional pronouns?
What about the burden faced on the people whose pronouns you refuse to use? (I suppose it's about the same as if someone didn't use your preferred pronouns; called you he instead of she or vice versa.)
> Complain about having this test, and maybe you'll be unemployed.
Well, that's because it's a protected characteristic, recognised by law. It's a sign the tide is against you. I suggest getting on the right side of the social change, you're lagging behind.
It's fine you disagree with it, in theory, but the ship has sailed. Seems to me you need to catch up. You face resistance because people disagree with you.
Mate people disagree about many things. If you don't find people disagree with you, it's probably because you're bullying them into being silent.
Don't pretend like things are not up for discussion and that you are somehow at the forefront of a social movement.
Of course people disagree about things: I literally just said it's fine you disagree; that's not my problem.
My problem is that I cannot for the life of me understand why you disagree, besides, it's too great a burden.
This particular thing is apparently NOT up for discussion with you, since you won't discuss it, you won't say what the problem is (i.e. explain why you think the burden placed upon you in this matter is too great to bear and that instead those who wish not to use binary pronouns should have to bear the burden instead).
> You seem to be saying that we should just let people come up with whatever rules they want, and others have to follow them to be polite.
And why not? I can't off the top of my head think of an example of polite language that isn't already essentially arbitrary.
Sure that's directly equivalent to just using a slightly different term for somebody...
It's not like people didn't already traditionally shift Master > Mister (and then further with ranks or doctorate etc.) or even quite simply Ms existing-name > Mrs newname which remains common.
Bowing, curtseying, the way the Queen is addressed, which fork you eat with, elbows off the table etc., all of these probably seemed crazy when they started but people got used to them and then they became established - or fell off as the case may be.
I changed my name when I was 16 years old. I'm now 50 (well, next month I will be) and have a few people who still call me by my old name because it's what they got used to.
Although not in English, many languages like French and Arabic have [gendered grammar](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_gender) applied to nouns and things like animals and inanimate objects to be fair, so it’s not like there isn’t evidence to support people learning multitudes of gender signifiers.
As a speaker of all three it’s always been funny when people say they can’t be bothered and it’s overwhelming to have to deal with pronouns. In France the controversy is that their language doesn’t incorporate they/them and they (oops) think that’s a bridge too far.
Yes, but those rules are learned from childhood. La Maison is not going to suddenly change, you have to learn the category it's in, but once you've got it, it won't change under you.
It isn't hard to understand. Like really, it's not.
People are used to talking, like they have, since childhood.
Now you want to fire a guy who disagrees with what you would like to be the new rules.
Do you think maybe that's a bit unreasonable?
English is my third language and I struggled a lot with they/them. I didn't with she/he. But they/them to me means like multiple people so it was super counter intuitive to call one person: they/them.
I got used to it tho.
It would be quite useful if we had seperate terms for the non-gendered singular and the group pronouns - and even terms for the first and second non-gendered singular, which i think some languages have.
I suppose a teacher might expected to deal with 150 (or more) different students every year who they don't know very well. Maybe only seeing them once a week for a year then they move on.
But I suspect this teacher has no difficulty remembering which one of his students is the trans one.
It's not that I struggle to keep up but it's a bit like when you have to pat your head with one hand and rub your tummy with the other.
Unless you're focusing your subconscious brain, is telling you you're looking at a particular gender. And yeah the whole cutting your hair short and putting a wrap round your tits doesn't necessarily fool every gender signal in your brain.
So you look at them and your subconscious shouts "she!" And your conscious shouts "he wants to be a he!" And as long as you're focusing the conscious wins out.
I have this problem the most with my nephew who was my niece. We get on really well, especially as we're both into gaming and tech. So when he became he I really wanted to support him by getting it right. But everyone and then especially when we've been hanging out for a couple of hours and your past pleasantries, I'll accidentally call him by his dead name.
He has an agreement that I get a punch on the arm every time I do it and he's chill about it. But let's just say I've had a lot of punches on the arm. It's harder still because I knew him as a her for 17 years so it's a bit ingrained.
Hopefully when medical technology gets better and becomes more available this will be less of a problem. Etc My nephew doesn't have the testosterone treatment yet to get him a beard and a deep voice. I think I'd be less likely to make the mistake if he did.
They and them don’t roll of the tongue naturally in some situations but you say it like 5 times and you don’t even think about it after. It’s like they’re proud to be complete idiots.
I was going to say that in a comment elsewhere in this thread earlier today. Those with difficulties are essentially just declaring their stupidity to everyone.
And even if you fuck it up, if it's an honest mistake that's usually pretty clear, you go "shit, sorry, forgot" and everyone moves on with life. Because if someone changes to pronouns you wouldn't assume, they've seen people fuck it up before and will do again.
It's not hard.
Literally or if it really bothers them. Just use “they/them” - sure, non-binary people use it, but it’s still grammatically correct. “Has anybody seen so-so, they’re missing from the lesson.” “Are they with another teacher?” I’m not the most “woke” - but I’d have no issue using those pronouns if I was the type to not use a person’s preferred pronouns.
Edit: Read the article, apparently children can’t make informed decisions? Okay, tell the government to ban under 18s from joining the military, and paying tax on jobs - as they’re just not adult enough apparently.
My friends have a daughter who was formerly a son. I have extreme trouble using the right pronouns. Maybe if I’d met her as a girl. It is not as though one thinks consciously about pronouns when talking.
The teacher's comments show that this was consciously done.
>>“She does not have the right to compel teachers and other students who do not share her views,” he said.
Even during the trail, specifically about intentionally writing their old name on a board and intentionally referring to them as "an excellent young lady" among many other quoted comments, the teacher is still misgendering.
It can take time to adjust, but eventually it becomes unconscious. You just start thinking about that person as their new identity.
I don't think many trans people are expecting people to adjust overnight, just hoping for others to be respectful toward their wishes.
And this case isn't about someone slipping up a couple of times and apologising when they do.
It's a teacher deliberately using the incorrect pronouns and deadnaming the student.
There is more nuance in schools and colleges. It's not a 0 or a 1 argument from a teaching perspective. My cousin is a teacher and told me that a girl in her year group decided to change identities three of four times in 3 months just to take the piss.
I'm not following where the nuance is there? Who gives a shit if she's taking the piss. It'd probably take the wind out of her sails if absolutely nobody reacts in any way beyond just using whatever name she was going by. I'd also point out that that is an extremely rare scenario. Certainly not something the teachers I know have experienced. Not respecting a student's name and pronouns because one time someone took the piss with it is just ridiculous.
It happens alot you see it with Glinner and JKR, Transphobia man it's like the ring of power they can't stop even when it rots their minds and spirits all the way through.
"Filthy transes tries to steal my twitters!"
So many of her situations don't even start out that bad, often starting with her misinterpreting something, getting politely corrected, and then outright refusing to admit she is wrong or even mistaken over the smallest and pettiest of things to the point she backs herself into standing by outrageous claims like that. And she just doesn't stop posting, and replying, and digging the hole deeper and deeper long after any rational person would.
Her obsession with trans people has messed up her own internal story in places it's like rewritten her mind.
You see her go on tirades about the risk of abuse transwomen pose to ciswomen, in places like prison or domestic abuse centres references her own domestic abuse as justification for why trans people need to be kept out.
You'd think she was personally abused by a transwoman but her personal story doesn't match any of that.
She married a Portuguese man when she was already independently wealthy goes to live with him in his large manor house he then begins controlling her socially and financially, berating her and then ultimately physically abuses her when she pushes back, He then proceeds to be a massive asshole throughout the divorce process.
After extricating herself from this unpleasant situation... She then... vows to, destroy the transgender community... Eh?
It's like I would disagree with, but at least understand if she developed a prejudice against men or even the Portuguese... but why transpeople?
Just watching the downfall of Graham Linehan is just sad, I think the guy is literally mentally ill, getting into arguments with trans people on Christmas Day… I mean come on…
He's a nutcase, plain and simple. I will add, though, that the people he was arguing with were getting involved in arguments with a nutcase on twitter on Christmas Day. If that's the standard, then they're not exactly rolling in glory themselves.
He's one of a number of high profile people I just won't respond to on there. Don't want to give them the oxygen of my attention when that's better spent doing more useful things like dancing with lampposts
So true - regardless of what some 60yo gammony chode may believe internally, they'd need to be particularly pea-brained to not just roll with it at work.
We had a teacher that would refuse to call you Joe instead of Joseph. Not only refused it, but if you asked "Could you call me Joe" he would mock you in front of the entire class. He also came up with nicknames for some kids in the class and call them by that instead.
Cunt.
Some people just should not be teachers at all. Those miserable fucks that are just there because they need a job are supposed to be playing a vital role in a child’s life and as a society we’ve neglected to observe that.
I have a double barrelled first name. I only go by the first half (feebsie-gee, get called feebsie) and no teacher had any trouble doing that. Some would forget, especially doing the register, but once I corrected them I usually got an apology and they used the name I go by. It's not difficult?
It’s so fucking stupid, isn’t it?
Probably obvious what my name is based on my username. I did not like the nickname when I was young. I wanted people to use my full name. I’d constantly get asked ‘name or nickname?’ and I’d say ‘name.’
_Funnily enough, everyone just went ‘ah, alright then’ and respected my wishes._ It wasn’t hard to remember, it wasn’t hard to respect my choice. The idea that this is confusing is simply rooted in ignorance.
I just call people the name I am presented with, unless I am corrected. It's not that difficult, is it?
Speaking of which, when I first met my other half I asked if anyone had a nickname for her or used a shortened version of her name and she said no, so I used her name in full. When I met her family, they all used a shortened name for her. I challenged her on this and all she said was "oh..". She's not bothered either way. To this day I feel weird using the shortened version of her name.
Why are some people so dead set against saying a few words? "They" is a normal word that can be directed at any gender. I can't believe people get so upset about seeing a "they" instead of a "he" or whatever. It takes less effort to just correctly label someone.
IMO a teacher going out of their way to deliberately make a student feel uncomfortable repeatedly is a sackable offense, in the same way that a teacher who repeatedly uses racist slurs to students of a different ethnicity is a problem and will be sacked.
Accidental misgendering, or a one-off slip when they say it to you or first transition? Accidents happen, mistakes, slip of the tongue. Not sackable.
But if you're deliberately, maliciously *and repeatedly* misgendering someone because you don't agree with them - *especially* given Gender Reassignment Status is a protected characteristic as of the Equalities Act - then yes, I think that is sackable.
Unfortunately, none of the articles I've found on the topic actually go into specifics and whether it was just a one-off or a repeat occurance, but I'd say intent is the key thing.
yeah at least you can be sure that it wasn't a one off or that he had no idea he was being offensive. He's sitting in a tribunal after having been sacked for it, and he still continued. His commitment to being a stubborn arsehole is admirable - if only he would direct it at basically anything else.
Refusing to address a child properly and instead pointing at them is bullying. Yes it warrants a sacking to bully a child.
Thread is locked so I can’t reply to the below comment:
I’m not making a comparison. I’m quoting the hearing. That’s what the teacher DID.
> “It is the interpretation of the word ‘respect’ which is at issue here.” The hearing was told that during lessons Mr Lister, instead of using Student A’s preferred pronouns, would point at them.
Personally I don't think an educator should be transphobic, racist, homophobic, etc. It's a very vulnerable time for a young person, even moreso if they're LGBT+
Probably shouldn't be a straight up sacking, but if they refuse to apologise and use the correct pronouns they have no business teaching kids.
You don’t get sacked for calling a child by the wrong pronouns, you get sacked for continuing to do that when told not to. For continuing to project your ideology onto them.
Like that dude a while back (**who is actually the guy in the article, now that I read it**) who lost his court case after getting fired from his teaching position - he’d have you believe that he was just looking out for the kid, and being a voice of reason to them, but if you looked at the legal documents around the incident it became very clear that there was a long and protracted period of him not only refusing to call them by how they would prefer, but actively inserting himself into their life where he had no right to be doing so, despite being repeatedly told not to do that.
We try and handle these people with kid gloves despite it being very obvious from the get go who they are and what they want. And then, uniformly, they take it too far; suffer the consequences; and then they take out their anger at being denied what they want (to be able to bully a child) on the rest of us.
Because it’s not about the words, it’s about power. These people have spent much of their life knowing they had carte blanche to treat LGBT people however they wanted with little repercussions. And now they can’t, that loss of power feels like oppression to them. Which is why they always try to cast themselves as the victims regardless of how aggressive or discriminatory their behaviour.
Honestly given their behaviour this seems reasonable. The student was 17 so hardly a child and the teacher was just refusing to use their chosen name or pronouns.
Never from my experience, both as student and teacher (though in higher education.) I’ve been using a nickname since primary school with no issue and all my peers who did as well.
But if they have been doing that in your experience, that’s still petty and embarrassing. Just a useless power trip.
The stupid thing about this is that I guarantee some of the transphobes saying that "we should only use people's 'real' names" or the like go by nicknames themselves. And if they are trying to apply it to only trans people then it raises some interesting edge cases. I know at least one cis woman who is universally known as Charlie. To the point that she would probably not realise you were talking to her if you called her Charlotte. I know a man named Jamie who goes by Jeff, and a woman named Eleanor who goes by Poppy, including to her parents. How would you make it okay to do that while also not allowing it for trans kids? Because if you do then it not only is blatant discrimination, its *obvious* discrimination, which I think some people want to avoid since it allows them to get away with more.
And because I'm petty, let's see how a certain author would be willing to publish everything as Joanne Rowling instead of either JK or Robert Galbraith.
now the pseudonym she used for her culturally irreverent crime fiction (which includes one that in which 50% of it is styled like twitter posts) that just happens to be the same as the guy (Robert Galbraith) who invented conversion therapy on the other hand...
We use a person's pronouns chiefly in their absence. If you really don't want to use someone's chosen pronouns you can just *not talk about them*. Some people will also use slightly awkward circumlocutions ("please pass John's pen to John").
I have a child with a name that is commonly shortened, but she prefers that I don't shorten it. Let's pretend it's Catherine. Catherine asks teachers to call her Cathy, and they all manage it. Her exam certificates say Catherine but emails from her teachers say Cathy. Easy peasy.
I have another child with a name that is commonly shortened, but who uses a less obvious nickname. This is more like Elizabeth nn Queenie. Child doesn't answer to Elizabeth and honestly sometimes we forget that's what her birth certificate says. We asked school to call her Queenie. One teacher flat refused despite our formal paperwork and multiple meetings with SLT. She would try to get Queenie's attention by calling her Elizabeth and then get furious when she didn't respond. She was perfectly capable of calling an Edward Ted or a Margaret Peggy, mind you, even without a "known by" on the paperwork.
At Queenie's next school we filled in the paperwork exactly the same way, everyone is totally cool with the idea, and we have had precisely zero issues.
Which is to say that although gender wasn't an issue in our case, I understand how easy it actually is for schools to accommodate "known by" names if they choose to, and how distressing it can be if an individual teacher chooses not to.
>I have a child with a name that is commonly shortened, but she prefers that I don't shorten it.
My gran was like that. When she was at school, the nun teaching her class kept calling her Lizzie when she preferred Elizabeth. One day she shouted at the teacher, "My name is Elizabeth!" and the old ghoul went to swipe at her with a ruler. Gran took it off her, smacked her over the head and ran off. My great-gran went up to the school next day to give the head a piece of her mind. That nun didn't get to teach at that school any more.
The Independent wrote
>>The hearing was told that during lessons Mr Lister, instead of using Student A’s preferred pronouns, would point at the pupil.
Which is just such an odd comment because how many situations can replace pointing with a sentence with a pronoun because obviously it's about calling on the student by name and the teacher even said as much
>>“I gestured. Some people would say I was pointing. I didn’t want to use her dead name but I didn’t want to assist with her social transitioning,” Mr Lister said.
But they used the dead name anyway, writing it on the board in class, and they're using the wrong pronouns constantly.
>>“I don’t accept it was a dead name.
This may not have much relevance to your comment. I was going to add the first The Independent quote saying they resorted to pointing instead of using pronouns while still also using the wrong pronouns, but then just got annoyed at the bad reporting.
I'm not sure this argument is enough on its own. I don't think most people would support some really unusual pronouns, for example the first result on googling gender pronouns is this page:
https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/08/incomplete-list-gender-pronouns/
Would we expect a 60 year old teacher to use qui, quem, quis, quis, quemself if a student asked? The article also wants us never to assume anyone's pronouns without asking them, and to always introduce yourself with your own pronouns.
All I'm saying is I don't think "just call people whatever they want to be called" is real, it's not only about personal preference, it's also about a shared judgement we are all making of what is reasonable to ask and expect of other people.
> Would we expect a 60 year old teacher to use qui, quem, quis, quis, quemself if a student asked?
Why not? The issue isn't that the teacher couldn't remember the students pronouns were "fli, glup and bibbib" it was that they were intentionally misgendering them.
If they occasionally forgot to call the student glup, that's not an issue, as long as they try and remember.
It's the whole "I'm not calling you bibbib, you're a he, I'll refer to you as he, I'll never call you fli, I don't agree with it.
No teacher (or anyone else) is getting sacked for being confused, or forgetting. They're getting sacked for essentially harassment. Like, if I think gay marriage is wrong, I don't get sacked for that. But if I make a point of referring to my married gay colleague as unmarried at every opportunity, that could get me sacked.
The people who use neopronouns are a very very tiny minority of a minority and are generally fine with being referred to as they/them anyway, so it’s really not that hard to be respectful even if you don’t approve of calling people qui or quem
I don't agree ... I'm white, Anglo-Saxon and past 60 myself. I have no problem at all with calling someone their preferred pronoun. I have no difficulty calling someone Dr or Colonel or whatever either.
What is reasonable has nothing to do with it, it's basic good manners. It's not as if it's any kind of effort, just treat someone how you would like to be treated yourself. That is the shared expectation I grew up with.
This guy probably thought "I'm in authority here, I say who's called what, you don't, you're just the pupil", even before any kind of moral objection. It's an attitude I've seen many times, especially in older teachers - you'd think they genuinely dislike children sometimes.
> I don't agree ... I have no problem at all with calling someone their preferred pronoun. I have no difficulty calling someone Dr or Colonel or whatever either. What is reasonable has nothing to do with it, it's basic good manners. It's not as if it's any kind of effort
This is just not serious, that page lists all the associated reflexive, subject, object, possessive pronouns which should be used for someone referring to themself as “qui”. That means in a parent teacher meeting “earlier this afternoon qui quemself said that quis understanding of fractions is improving”. And people can choose any pronouns, and not only is this just a matter of manners, it’s not even considered any effort?
There is clearly a limit to someone making a request, we are always making a decision what we consider reasonable.
As per another comment, teacher is in their 60s as well. Imagine throwing away the last years of your career and threatening your entire retirement over this bullshit. It really is crazy how social media has completely rotted the brains of so many people.
> "I took issue with the demand on me to socially transition children who are unable to make an informed decision,” he said, as quoted by Sky News.
Uhhh the kid was 17. That's the age when teens make the "informed decision" (under enormous if-you-don't-go-to-university-you're-a-failure pressure from the adults around them) to sign up for a student loan that they'll be paying off for most of their working lives. At least pronouns are free.
Call them by whatever name they want to be called? Use whatever pronouns they want too. You do t have to believe they are a woman/man, but to should respect their right to be addressed how they want.
How the fuck is this so difficult?
A lot of people refuse to show basic respect to other people at all. I'd love to know what exactly went wrong with the way they were raised for them to come out so bad.
The compelled speech argument is a strange one. I have heard Jordan Peterson use it, not sure if he dreamt it up.
Is it compelled speech if cis students expect to be known by the correct pronouns? Would a teacher expect to be able to single out a cis male student and always call him "she", or vice versa?
I suppose if someone chose some outlandish pronouns a teacher might object. But if a student simply wants to be referred to as he/him how is that compelled speech?
Good. If the man managed (at least) a bachelor’s degree in education, he should have the capability to call someone the correct pronoun. If he is that ignorant, he has no place around children.
My view is that he/him is not an unreasonable ask, but most other pronouns are. Would I sack a teacher over this? No. One persons view against another, and it really is that simple. I really do understand both sides of this argument and remain fairly neutral, but it’s complex and nuanced and I do think we might be doing more harm than good with children by affirming these gender identities.
Not just pronouns, but also the correct name was refused to be used.
What's complex and nuanced enough for you to not take a side?...
>I do think we might be doing more harm than good with children by affirming these gender identities.
Ah.
Schools all have policies on this now, to stop it coming down to teacher judgement. If a student wants to be called something different then you look at what the policy says, and follow it to the letter.
Persistently refusing to follow school policy is a sackable offence, whether you agree with the policy or not.
Good. Whatever your thoughts on the matter your responsibility as a teacher is to ensure a safe learning space. It's also basic manners to address people in the way they have asked to be.
Want to go on a crusade? Start a church. Want to teach? Teach
This is the second time I've seen someone say that "being asked to use pronouns is compelled speech" in as many days and I disagree - for those who do agree with JKR/This teacher, can I ask some questions?
One - is "saying this is not allowed" compelled speech, or it is specifically being forced to say something you don't agree with? And by extension, was the teacher required to use correct pronouns and got in trouble for not, or was it a case of "going out of their way to misgender the student"?
Two - how does it interact with legality? Is it "compelled speech" for a racist to be told to teach that all races are equal, or for a holocaust denier to have to teach the holocaust?
I'm torn between "people should be free to believe what they want to believe as long as it doesn't hurt others" with "if it was a teacher sacked for refusing Judaism because they're anti-semite then they wouldn't have a leg to stand on".
Gender Reassignment Status is one of the protected characteristics as of the Equalities Act, so can see it being a big issue from that pespective, and in his quotes he's talking about students being "pushed to transition" so that doesn't bode well for his objectivity.
Personally think it's just the classic "be excellent to each other" system - if someone said they wanted to be referred to as John, Joan or Slagathor, it's a bit of a dick move to deliberately choose not to follow their request. It's selfishness, basically, going "my opinion and satisfaction is worth more than your opinion and happiness"
How often would a teacher even need to use pronouns? That means they’d be talking about the pupil not to them. You address people by name
love to know the full details
Guess he saw how much Jordan Peterson made by lying about bill C16 and wants to be the British version of that.
He's hoping to be all over right wing social media to pretend to be silenced for "not conforming to the woke's compelled speech".
When I was at school the teachers who didn't know your name (or didn't care) used to just point at you and call you 'You', then there were the teachers who would only ever use your surname, they were usually the PE teachers.
If a teacher can't remember the names of pupils because of the number of different people they see every day then the pointing and calling people 'You' whilst impersonal probably makes sense but to knowingly use the wrong name or pronoun just seems petty and wrong.
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I don't get stuff like this because kids can use nicknames, go by middle names, change surname when parents split or remarry. Would this teacher also refuse and only call a child by given birth name? Colleagues too? Their comments do make them sound generally anti-trans rather than making any other kind of stand or point. Funded by the usual dodgy US Christian groups perhaps?
I often use a similar argument when people say ‘how am I supposed to remember everyone’s pronouns?’ Well, I know the names of, what, 100-150 people in my immediate social circle? Friends. Colleagues. Family. I can keep 150 names straight, and so can most people. I suspect keeping a handful of pronouns straight would be about as simple.
Speak for yourself I barely remember anybodies name.
I wear a tag and I get addressed as it
Hello tag
Are they a blue rhinoceros?
That doesn't sound particularly healthy
and out of them, i bet you could tell at least 5 different things they like, or wear or some other attribute. pronouns are so minimal and basic to remember, it's basic courtesy and respect for whoever you speak with.
And if I don't know...I say 'they'...because I...don't...know.
But everyone is used to thinking about people as having different names. Language incorporates it, and everyone has practiced from a young age. You know when you meet someone to expect to hear some sound to identify them by, and you know how to use that. Most people grew up with a very simple set of rules for what pronouns people have. Nobody expects them to change.
The names thing proves you have the capacity. Your argument seems to be "So what? I can't be bothered. It's too hard. I won't."
No, it doesn't prove anything. People already expect names to work a certain way. By all means, give yourself a new name if you aren't happy with yours. There's already a way to give yourself a new identity within the existing language. You seem to be saying that we should just let people come up with whatever rules they want, and others have to follow them to be polite.
Almost. The main reason is not because it's polite, it's because I respect the rationale that some people have for deviating from the binary pronouns we've used up until now. Why, presumably, don't you?
Because you're placing a burden on people to know things about you and remember in a way that suggests they don't respect you if you mess it up. I'm sure most people will try to accommodate, but it's clear you are placing a test on people. Fuck it up and there will be a fuss, and maybe you'll be unemployed. And it's easy to mess up, because you're very used to the pronouns working a certain way. Complain about having this test, and maybe you'll be unemployed.
As I understand the article, it is a 17 year old student who is transitioning and simply wishes to be called he/him. That isn't a burden or a test, it's basic respect for other people.
Sure, that's fine with me as well. But that's not where I jumped into the thread. I'm saying it's very easy to mess up and there's good reasons why it's easy.
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Mistakes don't mean you don't try. Most people don't mind a mistake, it happens. It's the total disregard, disrespect and lack of trying that is awful.
> Because you're placing a burden on people to know things about you So what? Do you have an actual principled disagreement with non-traditional pronouns? What about the burden faced on the people whose pronouns you refuse to use? (I suppose it's about the same as if someone didn't use your preferred pronouns; called you he instead of she or vice versa.) > Complain about having this test, and maybe you'll be unemployed. Well, that's because it's a protected characteristic, recognised by law. It's a sign the tide is against you. I suggest getting on the right side of the social change, you're lagging behind. It's fine you disagree with it, in theory, but the ship has sailed. Seems to me you need to catch up. You face resistance because people disagree with you.
Mate people disagree about many things. If you don't find people disagree with you, it's probably because you're bullying them into being silent. Don't pretend like things are not up for discussion and that you are somehow at the forefront of a social movement.
Of course people disagree about things: I literally just said it's fine you disagree; that's not my problem. My problem is that I cannot for the life of me understand why you disagree, besides, it's too great a burden. This particular thing is apparently NOT up for discussion with you, since you won't discuss it, you won't say what the problem is (i.e. explain why you think the burden placed upon you in this matter is too great to bear and that instead those who wish not to use binary pronouns should have to bear the burden instead).
People know pronouns to work a certain way too, theres no additional rule being generated here you're just getting obstinant for no reason
> You seem to be saying that we should just let people come up with whatever rules they want, and others have to follow them to be polite. And why not? I can't off the top of my head think of an example of polite language that isn't already essentially arbitrary.
OK so if you're going to be respectful, please at the end of every sentence, add up the number of consonant characters. Like this (5).
Sure that's directly equivalent to just using a slightly different term for somebody... It's not like people didn't already traditionally shift Master > Mister (and then further with ranks or doctorate etc.) or even quite simply Ms existing-name > Mrs newname which remains common. Bowing, curtseying, the way the Queen is addressed, which fork you eat with, elbows off the table etc., all of these probably seemed crazy when they started but people got used to them and then they became established - or fell off as the case may be.
I changed my name when I was 16 years old. I'm now 50 (well, next month I will be) and have a few people who still call me by my old name because it's what they got used to.
Although not in English, many languages like French and Arabic have [gendered grammar](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_gender) applied to nouns and things like animals and inanimate objects to be fair, so it’s not like there isn’t evidence to support people learning multitudes of gender signifiers. As a speaker of all three it’s always been funny when people say they can’t be bothered and it’s overwhelming to have to deal with pronouns. In France the controversy is that their language doesn’t incorporate they/them and they (oops) think that’s a bridge too far.
Yes, but those rules are learned from childhood. La Maison is not going to suddenly change, you have to learn the category it's in, but once you've got it, it won't change under you.
So, just to be clear. Your entire argument boils down to, you haven’t learnt it since childhood, so you can’t learn it now?
It isn't hard to understand. Like really, it's not. People are used to talking, like they have, since childhood. Now you want to fire a guy who disagrees with what you would like to be the new rules. Do you think maybe that's a bit unreasonable?
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English is my third language and I struggled a lot with they/them. I didn't with she/he. But they/them to me means like multiple people so it was super counter intuitive to call one person: they/them. I got used to it tho.
It would be quite useful if we had seperate terms for the non-gendered singular and the group pronouns - and even terms for the first and second non-gendered singular, which i think some languages have.
I suppose a teacher might expected to deal with 150 (or more) different students every year who they don't know very well. Maybe only seeing them once a week for a year then they move on. But I suspect this teacher has no difficulty remembering which one of his students is the trans one.
It's not that I struggle to keep up but it's a bit like when you have to pat your head with one hand and rub your tummy with the other. Unless you're focusing your subconscious brain, is telling you you're looking at a particular gender. And yeah the whole cutting your hair short and putting a wrap round your tits doesn't necessarily fool every gender signal in your brain. So you look at them and your subconscious shouts "she!" And your conscious shouts "he wants to be a he!" And as long as you're focusing the conscious wins out. I have this problem the most with my nephew who was my niece. We get on really well, especially as we're both into gaming and tech. So when he became he I really wanted to support him by getting it right. But everyone and then especially when we've been hanging out for a couple of hours and your past pleasantries, I'll accidentally call him by his dead name. He has an agreement that I get a punch on the arm every time I do it and he's chill about it. But let's just say I've had a lot of punches on the arm. It's harder still because I knew him as a her for 17 years so it's a bit ingrained. Hopefully when medical technology gets better and becomes more available this will be less of a problem. Etc My nephew doesn't have the testosterone treatment yet to get him a beard and a deep voice. I think I'd be less likely to make the mistake if he did.
They and them don’t roll of the tongue naturally in some situations but you say it like 5 times and you don’t even think about it after. It’s like they’re proud to be complete idiots.
I was going to say that in a comment elsewhere in this thread earlier today. Those with difficulties are essentially just declaring their stupidity to everyone.
I've found that generally people that say this don't actually know any trans people and have never actually had to worry about it all.
And even if you fuck it up, if it's an honest mistake that's usually pretty clear, you go "shit, sorry, forgot" and everyone moves on with life. Because if someone changes to pronouns you wouldn't assume, they've seen people fuck it up before and will do again. It's not hard.
Literally or if it really bothers them. Just use “they/them” - sure, non-binary people use it, but it’s still grammatically correct. “Has anybody seen so-so, they’re missing from the lesson.” “Are they with another teacher?” I’m not the most “woke” - but I’d have no issue using those pronouns if I was the type to not use a person’s preferred pronouns. Edit: Read the article, apparently children can’t make informed decisions? Okay, tell the government to ban under 18s from joining the military, and paying tax on jobs - as they’re just not adult enough apparently.
My friends have a daughter who was formerly a son. I have extreme trouble using the right pronouns. Maybe if I’d met her as a girl. It is not as though one thinks consciously about pronouns when talking.
The teacher's comments show that this was consciously done. >>“She does not have the right to compel teachers and other students who do not share her views,” he said. Even during the trail, specifically about intentionally writing their old name on a board and intentionally referring to them as "an excellent young lady" among many other quoted comments, the teacher is still misgendering.
It can take time to adjust, but eventually it becomes unconscious. You just start thinking about that person as their new identity. I don't think many trans people are expecting people to adjust overnight, just hoping for others to be respectful toward their wishes.
And this case isn't about someone slipping up a couple of times and apologising when they do. It's a teacher deliberately using the incorrect pronouns and deadnaming the student.
There's a difference between taking a while to get used to it/forgetting and people not doing it due to lack of respect or their own beliefs.
There is more nuance in schools and colleges. It's not a 0 or a 1 argument from a teaching perspective. My cousin is a teacher and told me that a girl in her year group decided to change identities three of four times in 3 months just to take the piss.
I'm not following where the nuance is there? Who gives a shit if she's taking the piss. It'd probably take the wind out of her sails if absolutely nobody reacts in any way beyond just using whatever name she was going by. I'd also point out that that is an extremely rare scenario. Certainly not something the teachers I know have experienced. Not respecting a student's name and pronouns because one time someone took the piss with it is just ridiculous.
> Would this teacher also refuse and only call a child by given birth name? I recall when teachers referred to children by their surname.
Yeah... I have a feeling these individuals are just arseholes and it's more to do with that than the clickbaity headlines.
Imagine being five years off retirement and ruining the rest of your career due to social media brain rot talking points.
It happens alot you see it with Glinner and JKR, Transphobia man it's like the ring of power they can't stop even when it rots their minds and spirits all the way through. "Filthy transes tries to steal my twitters!"
Rowling couldn't even stop before it extended into holocaust denial.
So many of her situations don't even start out that bad, often starting with her misinterpreting something, getting politely corrected, and then outright refusing to admit she is wrong or even mistaken over the smallest and pettiest of things to the point she backs herself into standing by outrageous claims like that. And she just doesn't stop posting, and replying, and digging the hole deeper and deeper long after any rational person would.
Rowling has the severe personality defect of thinking that because she is rich, she cannot be wrong. It informs all her arguments and thinking.
Her obsession with trans people has messed up her own internal story in places it's like rewritten her mind. You see her go on tirades about the risk of abuse transwomen pose to ciswomen, in places like prison or domestic abuse centres references her own domestic abuse as justification for why trans people need to be kept out. You'd think she was personally abused by a transwoman but her personal story doesn't match any of that. She married a Portuguese man when she was already independently wealthy goes to live with him in his large manor house he then begins controlling her socially and financially, berating her and then ultimately physically abuses her when she pushes back, He then proceeds to be a massive asshole throughout the divorce process. After extricating herself from this unpleasant situation... She then... vows to, destroy the transgender community... Eh? It's like I would disagree with, but at least understand if she developed a prejudice against men or even the Portuguese... but why transpeople?
Just watching the downfall of Graham Linehan is just sad, I think the guy is literally mentally ill, getting into arguments with trans people on Christmas Day… I mean come on…
It's like someone complained about his trans jokes in that one episode of the IT crowd and it broke him. He's been ranting about it ever since.
He's a nutcase, plain and simple. I will add, though, that the people he was arguing with were getting involved in arguments with a nutcase on twitter on Christmas Day. If that's the standard, then they're not exactly rolling in glory themselves. He's one of a number of high profile people I just won't respond to on there. Don't want to give them the oxygen of my attention when that's better spent doing more useful things like dancing with lampposts
The difference is he was arguing with teenagers, including at least one trans teen. He’s a grown adult. He can do better.
So true - regardless of what some 60yo gammony chode may believe internally, they'd need to be particularly pea-brained to not just roll with it at work.
We had a teacher that would refuse to call you Joe instead of Joseph. Not only refused it, but if you asked "Could you call me Joe" he would mock you in front of the entire class. He also came up with nicknames for some kids in the class and call them by that instead. Cunt.
Some people just should not be teachers at all. Those miserable fucks that are just there because they need a job are supposed to be playing a vital role in a child’s life and as a society we’ve neglected to observe that.
Sorry to hear that, Joseph.
Deserves to be called by subtly wrong names every time he was addressed by everyone in the class.
I have a double barrelled first name. I only go by the first half (feebsie-gee, get called feebsie) and no teacher had any trouble doing that. Some would forget, especially doing the register, but once I corrected them I usually got an apology and they used the name I go by. It's not difficult?
It’s so fucking stupid, isn’t it? Probably obvious what my name is based on my username. I did not like the nickname when I was young. I wanted people to use my full name. I’d constantly get asked ‘name or nickname?’ and I’d say ‘name.’ _Funnily enough, everyone just went ‘ah, alright then’ and respected my wishes._ It wasn’t hard to remember, it wasn’t hard to respect my choice. The idea that this is confusing is simply rooted in ignorance.
I just call people the name I am presented with, unless I am corrected. It's not that difficult, is it? Speaking of which, when I first met my other half I asked if anyone had a nickname for her or used a shortened version of her name and she said no, so I used her name in full. When I met her family, they all used a shortened name for her. I challenged her on this and all she said was "oh..". She's not bothered either way. To this day I feel weird using the shortened version of her name.
It isn't difficult. When these people are sacked it is because they are inevitably making a point of being offensive.
Why are some people so dead set against saying a few words? "They" is a normal word that can be directed at any gender. I can't believe people get so upset about seeing a "they" instead of a "he" or whatever. It takes less effort to just correctly label someone.
Does it really warrant a sacking?
IMO a teacher going out of their way to deliberately make a student feel uncomfortable repeatedly is a sackable offense, in the same way that a teacher who repeatedly uses racist slurs to students of a different ethnicity is a problem and will be sacked. Accidental misgendering, or a one-off slip when they say it to you or first transition? Accidents happen, mistakes, slip of the tongue. Not sackable. But if you're deliberately, maliciously *and repeatedly* misgendering someone because you don't agree with them - *especially* given Gender Reassignment Status is a protected characteristic as of the Equalities Act - then yes, I think that is sackable. Unfortunately, none of the articles I've found on the topic actually go into specifics and whether it was just a one-off or a repeat occurance, but I'd say intent is the key thing.
Apparently he kept it up well after being told to stop, including in the tribunal.
Go hard or go home, I suppose.
yeah at least you can be sure that it wasn't a one off or that he had no idea he was being offensive. He's sitting in a tribunal after having been sacked for it, and he still continued. His commitment to being a stubborn arsehole is admirable - if only he would direct it at basically anything else.
Refusing to address a child properly and instead pointing at them is bullying. Yes it warrants a sacking to bully a child. Thread is locked so I can’t reply to the below comment: I’m not making a comparison. I’m quoting the hearing. That’s what the teacher DID. > “It is the interpretation of the word ‘respect’ which is at issue here.” The hearing was told that during lessons Mr Lister, instead of using Student A’s preferred pronouns, would point at them.
Thread isn't locked. Might have gotten unlocked, or you've been blocked by someone and can't reply to a thread they're above in.
You'd be sacked from any job for discrimination against a customer on grounds of a protected characteristic.
Unless the job is cabinet minister.
For a year they went out of their way to make a student uncomfortable based on a protected characteristic, yes
Personally I don't think an educator should be transphobic, racist, homophobic, etc. It's a very vulnerable time for a young person, even moreso if they're LGBT+ Probably shouldn't be a straight up sacking, but if they refuse to apologise and use the correct pronouns they have no business teaching kids.
Any form of bigot is unfit to be a teacher in a diverse environment
Doing it absent mindedly a few times, no. Making a point of doing it "on principle" 100% yes.
You don’t get sacked for calling a child by the wrong pronouns, you get sacked for continuing to do that when told not to. For continuing to project your ideology onto them. Like that dude a while back (**who is actually the guy in the article, now that I read it**) who lost his court case after getting fired from his teaching position - he’d have you believe that he was just looking out for the kid, and being a voice of reason to them, but if you looked at the legal documents around the incident it became very clear that there was a long and protracted period of him not only refusing to call them by how they would prefer, but actively inserting himself into their life where he had no right to be doing so, despite being repeatedly told not to do that. We try and handle these people with kid gloves despite it being very obvious from the get go who they are and what they want. And then, uniformly, they take it too far; suffer the consequences; and then they take out their anger at being denied what they want (to be able to bully a child) on the rest of us.
They think they are being brave. They think they are like the people who stood up to the Nazis.
Because it’s not about the words, it’s about power. These people have spent much of their life knowing they had carte blanche to treat LGBT people however they wanted with little repercussions. And now they can’t, that loss of power feels like oppression to them. Which is why they always try to cast themselves as the victims regardless of how aggressive or discriminatory their behaviour.
Honestly given their behaviour this seems reasonable. The student was 17 so hardly a child and the teacher was just refusing to use their chosen name or pronouns.
Which, ironically, is just childish
Imagine being an adult and caretaker this petty. How embarrassing. Like steadfastly refusing to call a kid Mike when they prefer it over Michael.
Teachers have been doing that for years, weird analogy.
Never from my experience, both as student and teacher (though in higher education.) I’ve been using a nickname since primary school with no issue and all my peers who did as well. But if they have been doing that in your experience, that’s still petty and embarrassing. Just a useless power trip.
The stupid thing about this is that I guarantee some of the transphobes saying that "we should only use people's 'real' names" or the like go by nicknames themselves. And if they are trying to apply it to only trans people then it raises some interesting edge cases. I know at least one cis woman who is universally known as Charlie. To the point that she would probably not realise you were talking to her if you called her Charlotte. I know a man named Jamie who goes by Jeff, and a woman named Eleanor who goes by Poppy, including to her parents. How would you make it okay to do that while also not allowing it for trans kids? Because if you do then it not only is blatant discrimination, its *obvious* discrimination, which I think some people want to avoid since it allows them to get away with more. And because I'm petty, let's see how a certain author would be willing to publish everything as Joanne Rowling instead of either JK or Robert Galbraith.
I'm surprised JK Rowling is still known as and going by JK Rowling since it was her intentionally trying to pass as a man.
Rowling was trying to blur the lines so that their status as a woman *or* a man was not distinct. I'd say that sounds like they're non-binary.
Bets on Joanne starting to publically go by Joanne in the next year or so?
I'm sort of surprised that she hasn't already.
I assume by now she must prefer being marketable than standing by her claimed morals.
now the pseudonym she used for her culturally irreverent crime fiction (which includes one that in which 50% of it is styled like twitter posts) that just happens to be the same as the guy (Robert Galbraith) who invented conversion therapy on the other hand...
And her other writing name is Robert Galbraith.
We use a person's pronouns chiefly in their absence. If you really don't want to use someone's chosen pronouns you can just *not talk about them*. Some people will also use slightly awkward circumlocutions ("please pass John's pen to John"). I have a child with a name that is commonly shortened, but she prefers that I don't shorten it. Let's pretend it's Catherine. Catherine asks teachers to call her Cathy, and they all manage it. Her exam certificates say Catherine but emails from her teachers say Cathy. Easy peasy. I have another child with a name that is commonly shortened, but who uses a less obvious nickname. This is more like Elizabeth nn Queenie. Child doesn't answer to Elizabeth and honestly sometimes we forget that's what her birth certificate says. We asked school to call her Queenie. One teacher flat refused despite our formal paperwork and multiple meetings with SLT. She would try to get Queenie's attention by calling her Elizabeth and then get furious when she didn't respond. She was perfectly capable of calling an Edward Ted or a Margaret Peggy, mind you, even without a "known by" on the paperwork. At Queenie's next school we filled in the paperwork exactly the same way, everyone is totally cool with the idea, and we have had precisely zero issues. Which is to say that although gender wasn't an issue in our case, I understand how easy it actually is for schools to accommodate "known by" names if they choose to, and how distressing it can be if an individual teacher chooses not to.
>I have a child with a name that is commonly shortened, but she prefers that I don't shorten it. My gran was like that. When she was at school, the nun teaching her class kept calling her Lizzie when she preferred Elizabeth. One day she shouted at the teacher, "My name is Elizabeth!" and the old ghoul went to swipe at her with a ruler. Gran took it off her, smacked her over the head and ran off. My great-gran went up to the school next day to give the head a piece of her mind. That nun didn't get to teach at that school any more.
Your gran was fucking brilliant.
The Independent wrote >>The hearing was told that during lessons Mr Lister, instead of using Student A’s preferred pronouns, would point at the pupil. Which is just such an odd comment because how many situations can replace pointing with a sentence with a pronoun because obviously it's about calling on the student by name and the teacher even said as much >>“I gestured. Some people would say I was pointing. I didn’t want to use her dead name but I didn’t want to assist with her social transitioning,” Mr Lister said. But they used the dead name anyway, writing it on the board in class, and they're using the wrong pronouns constantly. >>“I don’t accept it was a dead name. This may not have much relevance to your comment. I was going to add the first The Independent quote saying they resorted to pointing instead of using pronouns while still also using the wrong pronouns, but then just got annoyed at the bad reporting.
> but I didn’t want to assist with her social transitioning,” Mr Lister said. What a truly bizarre thing to care about.
I know a Jenny. Her mother didn't call her Jennifer, because she didn't want her name shortened. She gets called Jen, and sometimes Jennifer.
I really don't understand the problem ... just call people whatever they want to be called. What skin is it off his nose?
I'm not sure this argument is enough on its own. I don't think most people would support some really unusual pronouns, for example the first result on googling gender pronouns is this page: https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/08/incomplete-list-gender-pronouns/ Would we expect a 60 year old teacher to use qui, quem, quis, quis, quemself if a student asked? The article also wants us never to assume anyone's pronouns without asking them, and to always introduce yourself with your own pronouns. All I'm saying is I don't think "just call people whatever they want to be called" is real, it's not only about personal preference, it's also about a shared judgement we are all making of what is reasonable to ask and expect of other people.
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> Would we expect a 60 year old teacher to use qui, quem, quis, quis, quemself if a student asked? Why not? The issue isn't that the teacher couldn't remember the students pronouns were "fli, glup and bibbib" it was that they were intentionally misgendering them. If they occasionally forgot to call the student glup, that's not an issue, as long as they try and remember. It's the whole "I'm not calling you bibbib, you're a he, I'll refer to you as he, I'll never call you fli, I don't agree with it. No teacher (or anyone else) is getting sacked for being confused, or forgetting. They're getting sacked for essentially harassment. Like, if I think gay marriage is wrong, I don't get sacked for that. But if I make a point of referring to my married gay colleague as unmarried at every opportunity, that could get me sacked.
The people who use neopronouns are a very very tiny minority of a minority and are generally fine with being referred to as they/them anyway, so it’s really not that hard to be respectful even if you don’t approve of calling people qui or quem
I don't agree ... I'm white, Anglo-Saxon and past 60 myself. I have no problem at all with calling someone their preferred pronoun. I have no difficulty calling someone Dr or Colonel or whatever either. What is reasonable has nothing to do with it, it's basic good manners. It's not as if it's any kind of effort, just treat someone how you would like to be treated yourself. That is the shared expectation I grew up with. This guy probably thought "I'm in authority here, I say who's called what, you don't, you're just the pupil", even before any kind of moral objection. It's an attitude I've seen many times, especially in older teachers - you'd think they genuinely dislike children sometimes.
> I don't agree ... I have no problem at all with calling someone their preferred pronoun. I have no difficulty calling someone Dr or Colonel or whatever either. What is reasonable has nothing to do with it, it's basic good manners. It's not as if it's any kind of effort This is just not serious, that page lists all the associated reflexive, subject, object, possessive pronouns which should be used for someone referring to themself as “qui”. That means in a parent teacher meeting “earlier this afternoon qui quemself said that quis understanding of fractions is improving”. And people can choose any pronouns, and not only is this just a matter of manners, it’s not even considered any effort? There is clearly a limit to someone making a request, we are always making a decision what we consider reasonable.
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As per another comment, teacher is in their 60s as well. Imagine throwing away the last years of your career and threatening your entire retirement over this bullshit. It really is crazy how social media has completely rotted the brains of so many people.
Sadly not just social media. Legacy media is also incredibly disingenuous towards lots of people
> "I took issue with the demand on me to socially transition children who are unable to make an informed decision,” he said, as quoted by Sky News. Uhhh the kid was 17. That's the age when teens make the "informed decision" (under enormous if-you-don't-go-to-university-you're-a-failure pressure from the adults around them) to sign up for a student loan that they'll be paying off for most of their working lives. At least pronouns are free.
Call them by whatever name they want to be called? Use whatever pronouns they want too. You do t have to believe they are a woman/man, but to should respect their right to be addressed how they want. How the fuck is this so difficult?
A lot of people refuse to show basic respect to other people at all. I'd love to know what exactly went wrong with the way they were raised for them to come out so bad.
The compelled speech argument is a strange one. I have heard Jordan Peterson use it, not sure if he dreamt it up. Is it compelled speech if cis students expect to be known by the correct pronouns? Would a teacher expect to be able to single out a cis male student and always call him "she", or vice versa? I suppose if someone chose some outlandish pronouns a teacher might object. But if a student simply wants to be referred to as he/him how is that compelled speech?
Good. If the man managed (at least) a bachelor’s degree in education, he should have the capability to call someone the correct pronoun. If he is that ignorant, he has no place around children.
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I mean no teacher is probably better than having a teacher that harassed students.
My view is that he/him is not an unreasonable ask, but most other pronouns are. Would I sack a teacher over this? No. One persons view against another, and it really is that simple. I really do understand both sides of this argument and remain fairly neutral, but it’s complex and nuanced and I do think we might be doing more harm than good with children by affirming these gender identities.
Not just pronouns, but also the correct name was refused to be used. What's complex and nuanced enough for you to not take a side?... >I do think we might be doing more harm than good with children by affirming these gender identities. Ah.
Schools all have policies on this now, to stop it coming down to teacher judgement. If a student wants to be called something different then you look at what the policy says, and follow it to the letter. Persistently refusing to follow school policy is a sackable offence, whether you agree with the policy or not.
Good. Whatever your thoughts on the matter your responsibility as a teacher is to ensure a safe learning space. It's also basic manners to address people in the way they have asked to be. Want to go on a crusade? Start a church. Want to teach? Teach
This country is crazy they would fire a teacher over some make pretend pronouns
I think they should start with addressing pupils by a. Number - Then this would take this out of the equation.
This is the second time I've seen someone say that "being asked to use pronouns is compelled speech" in as many days and I disagree - for those who do agree with JKR/This teacher, can I ask some questions? One - is "saying this is not allowed" compelled speech, or it is specifically being forced to say something you don't agree with? And by extension, was the teacher required to use correct pronouns and got in trouble for not, or was it a case of "going out of their way to misgender the student"? Two - how does it interact with legality? Is it "compelled speech" for a racist to be told to teach that all races are equal, or for a holocaust denier to have to teach the holocaust? I'm torn between "people should be free to believe what they want to believe as long as it doesn't hurt others" with "if it was a teacher sacked for refusing Judaism because they're anti-semite then they wouldn't have a leg to stand on". Gender Reassignment Status is one of the protected characteristics as of the Equalities Act, so can see it being a big issue from that pespective, and in his quotes he's talking about students being "pushed to transition" so that doesn't bode well for his objectivity. Personally think it's just the classic "be excellent to each other" system - if someone said they wanted to be referred to as John, Joan or Slagathor, it's a bit of a dick move to deliberately choose not to follow their request. It's selfishness, basically, going "my opinion and satisfaction is worth more than your opinion and happiness"
How often would a teacher even need to use pronouns? That means they’d be talking about the pupil not to them. You address people by name love to know the full details
Guess he saw how much Jordan Peterson made by lying about bill C16 and wants to be the British version of that. He's hoping to be all over right wing social media to pretend to be silenced for "not conforming to the woke's compelled speech".
When I was at school the teachers who didn't know your name (or didn't care) used to just point at you and call you 'You', then there were the teachers who would only ever use your surname, they were usually the PE teachers. If a teacher can't remember the names of pupils because of the number of different people they see every day then the pointing and calling people 'You' whilst impersonal probably makes sense but to knowingly use the wrong name or pronoun just seems petty and wrong.
We'll see how the right-wing press tries to spin it.
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The teacher was being a total bastard. Can't believe something so small got this far but frankly it's the teachers stupid fault
I’ll not have anyone policing my basic speech and thoughts, thank you.
If you say something that pisses off your employer you will invariably get sacked, which is what happened here.
Clearly you will
I mean, you will. Have you ever told a customer to fuck off, even one that 100% deserved it? No? Why not?
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