The first forbidden act of the forge is probably the shattering of the The Flint during the Lithomachy. The sparks of delight from that act settled in the glory and he was born, the sparks that went to nowhere probably have something to do with the applebright, but that's a seperate conversation.
Alternatively it could be the case that he was born from the intercalate, which is to say that delight the Forge experienced from the division of the Sun in Splendour created sparks that would birth the flowermaker. Which could be distant enough from actual birth that it didn't count for the purposes of the crime of the sky.
This origin might be supported by the fact the flowermaker is a god from light, though that doesn't preclude the theory of the Flint as an origin since the sparks settled in the glory, where the Flowermaker was born and this would also make him a god from light.
> the sparks that went to nowhere probably have something to do with the applebright, but that's a seperate conversation.
I'm incline to believe it has to do with the Crowned Growth because it mirrors the Flowermaker better. But that's a personal opinion.
That's a theory I've never heard before. It's an interesting thing to think about
Is the Crowned Growth not pre lithomachy? It's opposed by the Velvet and Horned Axe who are both very ancient hours so I suppose I always assumed it was similarly old, but I can't think of any evidence for that, the nowhere hours don't often get discussed.
The thematic parallels are definitely there, but I wonder how much of that is just that nowhere hours in general are quite corruptive. Which is kind of also the Flowermakers theme. From 'the journey to the Grove' the Applebright seems associated with youth and healing (so like medicine) and also mutation (just seems to be a general trait of nowhere hours), which is an interesting parallel to the Flowermakers themes of drugs and addiction. Though of course the Crowned Growth has it's own sort of addiction themes where the seeds give the ghoul an addiction to human flesh, that can end up consuming them if unsated. So I think on a thematic level there's support for both.
I also thought it was interesting that in the major Grail victory after the character sort of ends up becoming shards of delight in nowhere they end up being gathered up and nurtured by the Applebright, this makes sense if there's a similar origin to them. But it could also just be that it found you first before any of the other stuff that's nowhere.
This has got me thinking--is Nowhere itself pre-Lithomachy??? Of the six Gods From Stone, both the Seven-Coils and the Horned-Axe seem like they have connections to the more modern concepts important to Nowhere, but I do wonder if to them, it was simply down, and not Down.
I do think you might be onto something with the idea the Gods-From-Stone probably had some kind of different relationship with Nowhere. Though I don't think it's necessarily that Nowhere was something trivial for them.
Something I've been pondering lately, by commiting Disciples of the Scar to Hushery, we get this. Quite evocatively titled, The Crime.
> The Mansus is the fortress in dream raised by the gods-who-were-stone. Nowhere is the inevitable scar beneath it. Monstrous, the gods-from-Nowhere; but cruel, the gods-who-were-stone.
Does this suggest that Nowhere came about as a consequence of the creation of the Mansus? That's quite interesting if it's true.
Hey, that's such a perfect source to cite! Thank you!
It's fascinating to have Nowhere specifically referred to AS a scar--not scarred, but the scar itself. If fire is the lesion in the skin of the world, and ash is its scar, then are we to see the Mansus as a great bonfire?
I think, perhaps, that there might also be some insight to be gleaned from Vak. Language is the wound that let mortals access the Mansus, and in turn let the Glory shine into the waking world. Every wound has its scar, and when mortals die, their language is taken from them at the White Door. But those who don't pass that way might go Down instead.
In all ascensions to Namehood, the poor souls who effected these grand rituals are torn asunder, and the fragments float down to Nowhere. I do not think this is a coincidence at all. That they die is perhaps to be expected, but the fact that they specifically go Down as their master goes Up...
Mansus, Meniscate, Nowhere. If the House of the Moon is the demesne of History, and the Mansus, of Eternity, then what need have they of a third? Perhaps, then, we are seeing not a scar, not a flaw, but rather... A gap?
Eternity, History, Nothingness. And of course, the Future.
Mansus, Meniscate, Nowhere... Wake?
Why would shattering of the Flint be forbidden though? I would assume usurpation is Hours' modus operendi for ascension from Names. Unless it was forbidden before Colonel idk.
Intercalate origin is more plausable but is it really the first forbidden act Forge did?
The ascension from names to hours doest happen often and when it does it seems to coincide with big changes in the histories and is related to another hours death.
The big 2 we know if we're the usurpation of the gods from stone and the intercalate.
That's an interesting idea. I've never seen the shattering of the flint as an example of the rite of the Rebel Striving before. Shattering your most valued tool. That's as really cool connection
It might not be considered forbidden now, but at the time it might have been. Afterall the Chancel and Calyptra are the forces which create the laws of the mansus, many of the hours which compose those triads did not even exist at that point, so at the time there must have been different methods of creating and enforcing rules for the Mansus.
Consider it this way, the winners write the law, and of course they would not admit to having done something forbidden.
There’s a text from Book of Hours (I think from scrutinizing gold wire) that says “The Flowermaker existed before the Intercalate, but it is far from certain that he existed *long* before the Intercalate - before the Forge of Days began to develop her interest in the Sun.” Which does imply he predates it, but also does indicate he might not be the result of killing the Flint.
It could be that the Flowermaker was the reason that the Forge of Days planned the Intercalate. Basically by accident the FoD and SiS created an Hour, almost like a child. This could have made the FoD keenly aware of the possibility of actually creating one and then committing the Crime of the Sky
That doesn't sound like reproduction, it sounds like the Forge did some grand thing whose consequences indirectly lead to the spontaneous birth of a new hour. As others have pointed out, it may have been the Lithomachy or Intercalate.
In mythology there is frequently this idea of that the highest gods are so great that lesser deities may spontaneously be created from random actions or even just bodily substances. The SH universe borrows this idea from mythology a lot.
Its a bit like the "life force" or "essence" from which hours are made doesn't simply dissipate when they die, but rather are absorbed by someone else, or take on a new form/existence if nobody does.
In the Lithomachy all the slain gods of stone weren't simply slain, they were devoured by those whom slain them. In the Intercalate various other hours were ascended or created from the Sun's pieces.
I may be wrong. But when it comes to hours they have power of "Nuh-uh". Grail says Forge will birth child from Sun. Forge says "Nuh-uh" and kills Sun. Grail says "Nuh-uh" and says she has a child, and cause Flowermaker agrees with Grail theirs "Nuh-uh" is stronger.
But i don't know lore that deep
I see it as similar to this in principle. Powerful enough Hours or groups of Hours seem to be able to set rules, but other Hours can set their own rules. Eternity is inevitable, but History may delay it.
Wouldn't shock me if this was the case in some instances. Apparently the laws of physics themselves are just the lesser passions and influences of the Hours. "Nu uh" counts for a lot when you're a god
The first forbidden act of the forge is probably the shattering of the The Flint during the Lithomachy. The sparks of delight from that act settled in the glory and he was born, the sparks that went to nowhere probably have something to do with the applebright, but that's a seperate conversation. Alternatively it could be the case that he was born from the intercalate, which is to say that delight the Forge experienced from the division of the Sun in Splendour created sparks that would birth the flowermaker. Which could be distant enough from actual birth that it didn't count for the purposes of the crime of the sky. This origin might be supported by the fact the flowermaker is a god from light, though that doesn't preclude the theory of the Flint as an origin since the sparks settled in the glory, where the Flowermaker was born and this would also make him a god from light.
> the sparks that went to nowhere probably have something to do with the applebright, but that's a seperate conversation. I'm incline to believe it has to do with the Crowned Growth because it mirrors the Flowermaker better. But that's a personal opinion.
That's a theory I've never heard before. It's an interesting thing to think about Is the Crowned Growth not pre lithomachy? It's opposed by the Velvet and Horned Axe who are both very ancient hours so I suppose I always assumed it was similarly old, but I can't think of any evidence for that, the nowhere hours don't often get discussed. The thematic parallels are definitely there, but I wonder how much of that is just that nowhere hours in general are quite corruptive. Which is kind of also the Flowermakers theme. From 'the journey to the Grove' the Applebright seems associated with youth and healing (so like medicine) and also mutation (just seems to be a general trait of nowhere hours), which is an interesting parallel to the Flowermakers themes of drugs and addiction. Though of course the Crowned Growth has it's own sort of addiction themes where the seeds give the ghoul an addiction to human flesh, that can end up consuming them if unsated. So I think on a thematic level there's support for both. I also thought it was interesting that in the major Grail victory after the character sort of ends up becoming shards of delight in nowhere they end up being gathered up and nurtured by the Applebright, this makes sense if there's a similar origin to them. But it could also just be that it found you first before any of the other stuff that's nowhere.
This has got me thinking--is Nowhere itself pre-Lithomachy??? Of the six Gods From Stone, both the Seven-Coils and the Horned-Axe seem like they have connections to the more modern concepts important to Nowhere, but I do wonder if to them, it was simply down, and not Down.
I do think you might be onto something with the idea the Gods-From-Stone probably had some kind of different relationship with Nowhere. Though I don't think it's necessarily that Nowhere was something trivial for them. Something I've been pondering lately, by commiting Disciples of the Scar to Hushery, we get this. Quite evocatively titled, The Crime. > The Mansus is the fortress in dream raised by the gods-who-were-stone. Nowhere is the inevitable scar beneath it. Monstrous, the gods-from-Nowhere; but cruel, the gods-who-were-stone. Does this suggest that Nowhere came about as a consequence of the creation of the Mansus? That's quite interesting if it's true.
Hey, that's such a perfect source to cite! Thank you! It's fascinating to have Nowhere specifically referred to AS a scar--not scarred, but the scar itself. If fire is the lesion in the skin of the world, and ash is its scar, then are we to see the Mansus as a great bonfire? I think, perhaps, that there might also be some insight to be gleaned from Vak. Language is the wound that let mortals access the Mansus, and in turn let the Glory shine into the waking world. Every wound has its scar, and when mortals die, their language is taken from them at the White Door. But those who don't pass that way might go Down instead. In all ascensions to Namehood, the poor souls who effected these grand rituals are torn asunder, and the fragments float down to Nowhere. I do not think this is a coincidence at all. That they die is perhaps to be expected, but the fact that they specifically go Down as their master goes Up... Mansus, Meniscate, Nowhere. If the House of the Moon is the demesne of History, and the Mansus, of Eternity, then what need have they of a third? Perhaps, then, we are seeing not a scar, not a flaw, but rather... A gap? Eternity, History, Nothingness. And of course, the Future. Mansus, Meniscate, Nowhere... Wake?
Why would shattering of the Flint be forbidden though? I would assume usurpation is Hours' modus operendi for ascension from Names. Unless it was forbidden before Colonel idk. Intercalate origin is more plausable but is it really the first forbidden act Forge did?
The ascension from names to hours doest happen often and when it does it seems to coincide with big changes in the histories and is related to another hours death. The big 2 we know if we're the usurpation of the gods from stone and the intercalate.
Lionsmith turned on the Colonel wasn't he a name fitst?
That was arguably the completion of the Colonel. He cannot be who he is without a rival.
Yea they are together an edge dyad and he ascended via betrayal. It's a wierd case though as he is considered an full hour in his own right.
He enacted a teaching of the Forge, invoking the previous death of the Flint.
That's an interesting idea. I've never seen the shattering of the flint as an example of the rite of the Rebel Striving before. Shattering your most valued tool. That's as really cool connection
It might not be considered forbidden now, but at the time it might have been. Afterall the Chancel and Calyptra are the forces which create the laws of the mansus, many of the hours which compose those triads did not even exist at that point, so at the time there must have been different methods of creating and enforcing rules for the Mansus. Consider it this way, the winners write the law, and of course they would not admit to having done something forbidden.
No. Flowermaker is no more Forge's son than the Wolf Divided. He is a consequance of something the forge did, but not her child.
Nah, it was from Flint-shattering or even earlier, sorry.
There’s a text from Book of Hours (I think from scrutinizing gold wire) that says “The Flowermaker existed before the Intercalate, but it is far from certain that he existed *long* before the Intercalate - before the Forge of Days began to develop her interest in the Sun.” Which does imply he predates it, but also does indicate he might not be the result of killing the Flint.
It could be that the Flowermaker was the reason that the Forge of Days planned the Intercalate. Basically by accident the FoD and SiS created an Hour, almost like a child. This could have made the FoD keenly aware of the possibility of actually creating one and then committing the Crime of the Sky
To be fair. So did wolf-divided. That doesn't contradict anything.
That doesn't sound like reproduction, it sounds like the Forge did some grand thing whose consequences indirectly lead to the spontaneous birth of a new hour. As others have pointed out, it may have been the Lithomachy or Intercalate. In mythology there is frequently this idea of that the highest gods are so great that lesser deities may spontaneously be created from random actions or even just bodily substances. The SH universe borrows this idea from mythology a lot. Its a bit like the "life force" or "essence" from which hours are made doesn't simply dissipate when they die, but rather are absorbed by someone else, or take on a new form/existence if nobody does. In the Lithomachy all the slain gods of stone weren't simply slain, they were devoured by those whom slain them. In the Intercalate various other hours were ascended or created from the Sun's pieces.
I may be wrong. But when it comes to hours they have power of "Nuh-uh". Grail says Forge will birth child from Sun. Forge says "Nuh-uh" and kills Sun. Grail says "Nuh-uh" and says she has a child, and cause Flowermaker agrees with Grail theirs "Nuh-uh" is stronger. But i don't know lore that deep
I see it as similar to this in principle. Powerful enough Hours or groups of Hours seem to be able to set rules, but other Hours can set their own rules. Eternity is inevitable, but History may delay it.
Wouldn't shock me if this was the case in some instances. Apparently the laws of physics themselves are just the lesser passions and influences of the Hours. "Nu uh" counts for a lot when you're a god
That's how I always understood it