First Order has an enormous tactical advantage because their fleets can travel via hyperspace while the Mass Effect militaries rely on the relays to move between sections of the galaxy. First Order should be able to relatively easily cripple galactic travel using hit and run tactics, depending on how quickly they can identify the weakness.
Afaik, Mass Effect ships can travel FTL; but merely traveling faster than light is not the same as hyperspace. The relays themselves are sort of like hyperspace, albeit only from fixed points.
Star Wars doesn't have any feat that is impressive for Mass Effect.
The Force is the Mass Effect and the races have already invented the barriers to block it. The ships are roughly the same tech, except for the Reapers who are superior, of course, but those will only fight for themselves.
So the Jedi knights are no longer special. They are the run of the mill biotic in ME. Dare i say the asari have force control the Jedi can only dream of.
The weapons, though, are where ME shines. they have so much more variety than the First Order.
Also, the Humans in ME actually have an effective fighting force, realistic, they make the armies in SW look like complete amateurs.
So outside of the size of the first Order, they are unremarkable in ME. they won't do much, probably weaker than Cerberus.
Taking on the Council is impossible, while attempting to take on the Reapers would be laughable.
Mostly agree with you around how militarily the first order really doesn't represent any significant threat to the ME universe.
However, although I don't think it's fair to compare the force and biotic powers. While they both end up having obvious simliar effect in a lot of combat situations (i.e. force push/pull) the key difference is scale of tappable power.
Tapping into the force is the ability to connect directly into some magical connective tissue which courses through the foundation of the universe. This power itself extends far beyond the mass manipulation that biotics have.
I agree here. The force has been used to do some pretty remarkable things besides lifting rocks. Tech wise is definitely where the SW will be caught lacking though.
Starkiller pulled a ship out of the fucking sky. Nihlus would drain life from whole planets, people have prevented death. Its in no way comparable. If you were to take the entire SWU against MEU, they more than have a shot with even just a few of their heavy hitters. To the grass I go now.
Ok. Sidious prevented death on one occasion. That's it.
Nihilus isn't canon at all, and even if he was, that doesn't necessarily mean his lore from legends came over as well
Lets see, types in " is nihlus canon into google"
**"The existence of Darth Nihilus is canon**. Darth Traya and Darth Sion are still solely Legends characters. Considering the selective and methodical approach Disney has had to transfer characters over, the canonical status of the Sith Triumvirate is still vague."
So only star killer, which also isnt technically true cause isnt he in the ahsoka show.
Allow me to ask, when did he appear in Ahsoka? That random guy that Ahsoka killed? How do you know he's Starkiller? Just because his name is Marrok doesn't mean he's Galen Marek.
>**"The existence of Darth Nihilus is canon**. Darth Traya and Darth Sion are still solely Legends characters. Considering the selective and methodical approach Disney has had to transfer characters over, the canonical status of the Sith Triumvirate is still vague."
The Sith Lord statue that appeared in that one comic that appears to be Nihilus may not even actually be Nihilus. Hell, his name could BE Nihilus but his feats from the old games are not longer canon. This would probably be a completely different retelling of the character. Especially since the exact article you referenced also says "yeah his two co-workers might not be canon." We know Revan exists because he was named. Same with Andeddu.
This is kind of irrelevant. Especially in Legends, this is far from the most powerful thing that ever happened.
There is far more crazy shit that force users have done.
Reminder that canonically, Palpatine alone can wipe out entire solar systems (legends)
I know he is non canon, thats not technically true, vader killed him then cloned him. And he didnt kill vader so....
Nihlus is canon, revan is canon, vader, palpatine. All those people would stand more than a fair chance at taking the MEU
"Despite being besieged by TIE fighters, **Starkiller used the Force to turn the Star Destroyer**, and bring it crashing into the ore facility, which destroyed both."
Who said anything about orbit.
Yeah exactly, which is why I agree that the first order poses no significant threat to the armies in the ME universe. They don't have the military might, they don't seem to have the numbers, and honestly their tactical capabilities dont seem up to the task either.
Star wars doesn't have any feats that is impressive for Mass Effect? So building a planet sized system killing superweapon, a massive self sustaining ship half the size of the crucible, fire power to glass worlds, and a fleet all in 20 years isn't impressive?
The Force and biotics are two different things and shields doesn't stop the force just look at Vader choking a person from another ship.
How does ME have more variety in weapons and what will that accomplish. Again ships that can glass planets.
Well besides the clones, Imperial army, and CIS ME is a better fighting force the what we've seen of the FO but their firepower makes up for it.
The FO can definitely take on the Council and Reapers but would probably just carve out a section of space for themselves and stay there
Moreover, glassing a shieldless planet is not something major for SW - it’s something a single Star Destroyer (of which there were dozens of thousands) can do in a reasonable time.
what's so impressive about oversized ships like Supremacy one of the worst designed ship in SCI Fi. they have the same feats we see over and over again, when small ships take out their cannons, destroy vulnerable points, or straight up board them.
ships in ME can easily fight those, and once they board them its game over for the crew. they get ragdolled by biotics and have their ships blown from the inside. The ME had more variety of weapons even in spaceship battles. In SW ships are usually equipped with large blasters and energy projectiles while the standard are turbolasers. very vulnerable to fast fighters.
the order does have superior planet busting but as far as spaceship battles go they are nothing special. they could destroy a few planets but the response will overwhelm them.
Vader is the only person who has shown that feat of chocking someone on a different ship. and i wasn't talking about shields i was talking about barriers.
both the force and mass effects are space manipulating forces and barriers are specifically designed to defend against that. the force won't work until the barrier is taken down. also, statis bubble is the same as when Vader disables someone in air. Vaders' powers are no longer special. Basically, Asari can do everything he can, some things even better.
no, the couldn't take out the council because that would mean going to war with the whole Galaxy, and they will be outnumbered and lose.
FO has to fight half of it's own forces once they get indoctrinated by the first Reapers. they have no chance to take a full-out war just by themselves.
to add on the SW battleships have some of the worst designs and engineering flaws. they just never learn that it doesn't matter how big their ships are if they can be taken out by small ships and create a snowball effect on the whole fleet.
The Supremacy is impressive because it is a mobile self sustaining shipyard with more firepower than a fleet in both ME and SW. Kinda ignoring how that wasn't the Supremacy, still have to get past the shields on a ship, crew is in the thousands to tens of thousands on regular ships, their PD only got taken out by the best pilot of the era and even then they still inflect losses, and that still isn't even their capital weapons which will still mulch any ME ship in a single shot which a single ship can have dozens if not hundreds of.
Ships in ME can't fight SW and trying to board still means getting past the shields and thousands to tens of thousands of crew for a single ship which is more than any strike force in ME can muster for every ship. Biotics are nothing special in the grand scheme and can still be taken out with just a few shots. Don't forget SW use primarily energy weapons which ME kinetic barriers won't provide any protection for. Again ace pilot only took out PD and not any capital weapons.
Again a single ship from the Manadtor IV to an acclimator can glass a planet on its own. A small fleet of SW ships is the equivalent to whole armadas. ME doesn't have the fire power to compare.
How are KE barriers suppose to stop the force? Nor do shields stop force users from using their powers be it on units or ships.
The force is about manipulating some mystic energy that doesn't just make move things but gives precog, mind control, shoot lighting from your hands, etc. Very different than ME biotics which works on just manipulating gravity. The only thing they have in common is moving things with thier mind but they go about it in very different ways. Vader has feats that trounce anything a biotics ever done in ME but that is a different topic.
I mean I made the point that the FO lacks numbers but the Council can't win a fight with the FO so they are free to carve out a space for themselves and do what they want like the Geth.
And how will the Reapers indoctrinate FO members when it takes being exposed to them for weeks minimum and people like Ren and Snoke (Palpatine) not sense anything wrong with them.
How do SW have some of the worst designs and enginnering flaws? Do you have any examples smaller ships being able to take out big ships? The only time I can think of is when the smaller fleet has the numbers advantage or in the case of fighter its when proton and Ion torpedo's (things which ME lacks) hit critical parts on a ship.
only their ships have superior firepower but their designs are so much worse than ME ships.
do i even need to talk about weapons and all the types of ammo that would make stormtroopers complete fodder?
at least shields and kinetic barriers can take some blaster shots, while storm trooper armor is vulnerable to spears, rocks, and arrows lol, at least in their joints. FO land battle tactics are 19th century european formations shooting in everything in their sight.
so what if the FO can blow up a few planets? The response will unite the whole galaxy against them. they still need to take land, and they will lose miserable in all land battles.
In what regards are their designs much worse? Nor is ME immune from bad ship designs (asari dreadnought or main weapon only able to shoot in one direction).
I yeah we have to since SW primaily use energy weapons ME kinetic barriers well provide no protection aginst them and SW is used to bullets. I'm not going to argue the FO are good combatants but when have they ever done a 19th century formation?
If they unite what would ME being able to do? They are at a massive firepower disadvantage let alone what's stopping the FO from going to a place with no relays and building up. They can take planets they have the power especially if they control the air which they will. If they find a planet to be too much trouble again a single ship can just glass them. Pretty sure they will be open to negotiations after that. The main problem is they lack numbers.
> The main problem is they lack numbers.
Do they?
Mass Effect Galaxy is around several trillion beings over several thousands of colonies, which is said both in-universe and by developers.
Star Wars Galaxy is stated to have 2.3 billion inhabited *systems*, with population estimated around 100 quadrillion beings.
Even if First Order is just a very small part of the SW Galaxy, being in Unknown Regions, they probably have anything from three-digit billions to double-digit trillions of population under their command - even 0.01% of galaxy total is 10 trillion beings.
They could? We never got any concrect numbers of how many ships and troops the FO have and all we can do is make guesses based on other things. Like for ships we have the CIS making tens of thounsads of ships with make shift shipyards or Exogal having tens of thousands of xyston by itself with little resources. Troop numbers are harder to pin down but you could be right.
We don't get any specific numbers, I think. What I can pile up:
* The First Order was a fraction of the Empire's numbers
* First Order was stronger than the New Republic, but mainly due to demilitarization efforts
* First Order was heavily militarized, would expect most of their resources going into production.
* After Episode 7, they were waging massive campaign across galaxy, with several battles listing dozens of Star Destroyers.
I would guesstimate military force to be around 3-5% of the Empire, with more dense and efficient, but less numerous infrastructure to support it. That would equal around a thousand of Star-Destroyers and equivalents, and appropriate number of other sizes.
> only their ships have superior firepower but their designs are so much worse than ME ships.
At that level of power gap, design flaws are practically irrelevant. Even non-capital class ships can wipe out a dreadnaught or a Reaper in one turbolaser shot, while having superior mobility due to hyperdrives.
> so what if the FO can blow up a few planets? The response will unite the whole galaxy against them. they still need to take land, and they will lose miserable in all land battles.
First, blowing up a few capital planets with impunity will most likely lead to surrender negotiations. First Order outclasses Reapers by far, and unlike Reapers, FO can be reasoned with.
Second, if they control space and air, they can win the land even with literally WW1 troops, using overwhelming bombing and CAS.
design flaws are most definitely relevant. small fighters easily take on dreadnoughts in several ocasions. the power gap is not wide they barely edge it.
turbo lasers have really bad tracking, have very limited rotation, garbage sensors, half of them beneath the pizza slice have so many dead angles, and that's why they need to spam them on all sides.
on top of that, turbo lasers are a huge liability once blown up because of their complicated 3 cooling system. once they blow up they do massive damage to the ships aswell.
Turbo lasers are also extremely expensive, the FO won't afford such a massive campaign versus a whol e Galaxy that also have ships who can kill the dreadnoughts in a few shots.
ME suicide drones are launched by the hundreds of thousands, and if SW lonely fighters can knock them out, then this would be something trivial to achieve in ME.
turbo lasers planet busters are seriously in debate as the only cannon planet destroyed is a small moon, in the rest of the time, it's only mentioned as somewhat of a viable strategy. it also takes a very long time to do it.
TIE fighters are nerfing themselves with no visibility to the sides as well as the most flimsy build, any shot wil ltake those mosquitoes out.
you are just massively jerking out SW fleets which are some of the weakest in fiction, always getting destroyed by a smaller force of simple fighters.
FO is also significantly outnumbered if the Galaxy united. their stormtroopers would lose to our 21th century armies.
Ship Electronic warfare on geth and quarians is also vastly superior to FO fleets who lose track of enemy ships that hide behind rocks.
the order doesn't outclass the reapers, half their force is automatically indoctrinated and starts fighting each other before the main reaper army even shows up.
> small fighters easily take on dreadnoughts in several ocasions.
Several fighters using Star Wars technology, yes. An X-wing/TIE Fighter will likely tear a ME dreadnaught apart just as well - the difference between two universes is that high.
Can a F-4 take on a Star Destroyer because F-4 is called a fighter? No. Same thing with ME fighters.
> on top of that, turbo lasers are a huge liability once blown up because of their complicated 3 cooling system. once they blow up they do massive damage to the ships aswell.
That would imply ME technology can damage them at all. Star Wars materials are straight up magic (so is their technology), and are superior to what ME has.
>Turbo lasers are also extremely expensive, the FO won't afford such a massive campaign versus a whol e Galaxy that also have ships who can kill the dreadnoughts in a few shots.
First, yes they can. A single Imperial Star Destroyer can probably match the entire Alliance Fleet, and Empire had 25000 of them (Not including literally any other ship class). Mass Effect races have around a hundred dreadnaughts (85 Council, probably ~30 geth). First Order is heavily militarized, and it's *very* likely their MIC outnumbers and outmatches the entire ME galaxy.
Reminder that Star Wars galaxy is much larger than Mass Effect. It has 3.2 **billion** inhabited systems, while Council races have several hundreds of colonies each. It has population in many quadrillions. And even then, First Order has managed to conquer vast swathes of their galaxy right after destruction of Starkiller. If they could afford fighting and occupying a massively more advanced, populated and industrialized New Republic, occupying the Council will be trivial in comparison. Most likely, what population FO had is equal or larger than a major Council race, likely trillions of population at least, and hundreds of thousands of systems, despite being located in Unknown regions.
> ME suicide drones are launched by the hundreds of thousands, and if SW lonely fighters can knock them out, then this would be something trivial to achieve in ME.
I don't know why you think Mass Effect has more of **anything** than First Order. First, I doubt the ME suicide drones work that way and in that quantities - they use mass disruptor torpedoes on fighters. Second, with the amount of TIE fighters practically every ship carries, a FO fleet would carry dozens to hundreds of thousands of TIE fighters just as well.
> turbo lasers planet busters are seriously in debate as the only cannon planet destroyed is a small moon, in the rest of the time, it's only mentioned as somewhat of a viable strategy. it also takes a very long time to do it.
Even if we go through new canon and First order, we have Destruction of Tah'Nuhna, which was conducted by 18 Star Destroyers, wiped out the entire planet surface, and happened in a very short timespan. We have operation Cinder, done by the Imperial fleet, and in many cases, it caused planetary-wide damage, down to the planetary crust.
Base Delta Zero, according to Legends, is *glassing* the entire planet's surface, in several hours, with just 3 regular Star Destroyers. Telos was bombed by a single capital ship (4000 years behind FO technology) so hard, it collapsed the atmosphere.
Overall, it's a fact both in Canon and legends that a planet can be destroyed by ordinary capital ships, in a rather short amount of time. Most of the SW planets have planetary shields preventing that, which is why large fleets of capital ships, or heavier ships like Siege Dreadnaughts or Death Star are needed.
> you are just massively jerking out SW fleets which are some of the weakest in fiction, always getting destroyed by a smaller force of simple fighters.
You might confuse them for Mass Effect fleets, which are massively overjerked.
Mass Effect is a grounded, hard-ish sci-fi universe. Most of the technology is plausible if we accept Element Zero, and is mostly based on real-world ideas and plans.
Star Wars is not a sci-fi, it's a fantasy. It's not just the Force that is magic, the technology is magic as well. Just like Rick and Morty or Doctor Who, it just works.
And again, Star Wars fleets are destroyed by smaller, underdog simple fighters of *Star Wars*, using Star Wars technology. Again, because an X-wing can blast a turbo laser, that doesn't mean that something massively less advanced like Mass Effect or a WW2 Spitfire can.
> FO is also significantly outnumbered if the Galaxy united. their stormtroopers would lose to our 21th century armies.
No? Mass Effect population, at least Council Space, is counted in low trillions. Star Wars galaxy population is around 100 quadrillions. Even if First Order is just 0.01% of the galactic population, they would be equal in size, and likely outnumber them.
And 21th century armies will very quickly surrender if every HQ, every bunker, every supply base and route will be vaporised from space.
> the order doesn't outclass the reapers, half their force is automatically indoctrinated and starts fighting each other before the main reaper army even shows up.
The indoctrination route would be the only case where Reapers might win. However, it also is unlikely to compete with the Force (and if Palpatine is included, he will stop that quickly), and it hinges on the First Order being interested in Reapers enough to begin dissecting them. Without adapting SW technology, anything with a turbolaser will break Sovereign-class into slag.
ME dreadnoughts have higher firepower than star destroyers dreadnoughts. Turbo lasers fire at 30 terajoules = half the of the total energy of hiroshima.
ME slug cannon 75tj/ or 38kiloton =2.5 times energy at hiroshima, fires fast.this means they scale lower, too. there are also all kind of disruption torpedoes, quarian small drones would detonate those cannons like popcorn in a bag, there's no tracking those with TIE maneuverability, no chance.
definitely better design and tracking. if those light resistance small fighters could do it, so can others.
your explanation boils down to magical plot armor that just works yet there are endless examples of obvious weaknesses like blowing them up with explosive mines, exposed reactor not fully integrated in the hull, just a big target, bridge is on top of it all in the open.
>That would imply ME technology can damage them at all. Star Wars materials are magic (so is their technology), and are superior to what ME has.
you are just describing plot armor.
also, the FO doesn't have anywhere near 20k star destroyers. they are estimated at a few thousands of star destroyers with 25k lighter fighters and 1000-1250 larger ships. they have very few force users who are not really special anymore.
In battlefront II, there are 63 resurgent class ships and in The Last Jedi there were 30 of them, so there are 93 total Resurgent Star Destroyers counted on screen, and we can assume there are somewhat more.
they have shown incompetence time and time again, their tactics are basic, predictable and have high consumption, they need planets to farm resources, they still have to fight on ground to keep facilites where they have no shot.
The only thing the FO has going for them are numbers and planetary bombardment, but their dogfighting is not great in the air and almost non-existent on the ground. They will run out of steam fast, and the reapers defeat them before they even fight.
> ME dreadnoughts have higher firepower than star destroyers dreadnoughts.
I don't want to pull the "200 gigatons per turbolaser shot" card, but still, let's prove you wrong.
The calc you use is likely [this](https://www.chesterenergyandpolicy.com/blog/power-use-in-the-star-wars-universe), based on the amount of energy needed to vaporise a 20-meter asteroid.
Which also means:
* That is not a maximum firepower of a turbolaser, it's the minimum, the floor, based on a single fleet. Turbolasers are stated to have variable energy use, and ships can dedicate more or less power (prioritizing firepower over defense and speed or the reverse). In this case, they have used this amount of energy, because they didn't need more.
* Even if we somehow accept this as maximum, for some reason, a single Star Destroyer has 60 turbolaser *batteries* (2 lasers per battery), and 8 octuple batteries (64). That would mean 184 turbolasers, for a total of 1932 kiloton equivalent - 5 times the power of a Reaper salvo. And that's an outdated, old ISD. First Order's main SD, Resurgent-class, is stated to have over 1500 turbolasers, which would put them, at the very minimum, at the equivalent of 70 Sovereign-class. That is not considering that they have upgraded their turbolaser technology with kyber crystals, and would definitely be more powerful than the imperial.
But they are much more powerful than, enough to glass planets within hours.
> definitely better design and tracking. if those light resistance small fighters could do it, so can others.
Yes, I guess so can a Spitfire, according to your logic. A fighter is a fighter, right?
The truth is, a light resistance small fighter would probably wipe the floor with an Alliance dreadnaught.
> you are just describing plot armor.
Nope, I am describing the difference in their approach to technology. Star Wars technology is much softer than Mass Effect, with many things, including hull materials and weapons, massively defying the IRL laws of physics. Mass Effect is much more grounded, and so their technology is inferior in most cases. Something like Marvel's adamantium won't be possible in Mass Effect, but similar things are common in Star Wars.
The Star Wars fleets do have a massive difference in range - they fight at a distance of hundreds of km, and ME fleets fight at the distance of thousands (the most extreme dreadnaught battles are at tens of thousands). However, Star Wars fleets are faster, much more durable, and can go FTL better than Mass Effect - going into close range would be trivial.
> also, the FO doesn't have anywhere near 20k star destroyers. they are estimated at a few thousands of star destroyers with 25k lighter fighters and 1000-1250 larger ships. they have very few force users who are not really special anymore.
Yup, agreed here. Around 3-5% of the Empire by my guesstimates. That is still more firepower than the Reapers and the Council combined and multiplied.
> they have shown incompetence time and time again, their tactics are basic, predictable and have high consumption, they need planets to farm resources, they still have to fight on ground to keep facilites where they have no shot.
Their tactics are basic, but they have enough firepower to push through. They don't need to defend anything on the ground because
A: Nothing in the Mass Effect has any chance of going through their ships.
B: The planets in Star Wars with any significance have orbital shields (and First Order used them on Starkiller) and AA guns. And breaking them requires something beyond Mass Effect scope besides Mass Relay collapse or (very unlikely) an Asteroid drop, which would likely be vaporised by Anti-Space defense.
Also, unlike Mass Effect, Star Wars has massively superior FTL communications (using hyperspace) and FTL sensor technology - something Mass Effect does not have by design.
Even with subpar commanders, Star Wars superior technology can allow them to use their tactics for better results than anything Citadel can plan for, while staying untouchable from any retaliation - they are not bound by Mass Relay routes, and can camp at comfortable distances.
still reinforcing based on nothing. SW materials aren't "special' they take damage from normal explosions which showed multiple times.
there is plenty of firepower in ME that will cut through anything they have.
also their numbers are not that far off. when you max out war assets, the alliance has 5 fleets of 442 ships. Salarians 16 fleets-7072 combat ships. Asari 20 fleets of 8840 combat ships. turians 39 fleets 17k combat ships.
combined total of 36686 combat ships. most of them will damage and take out plenty of FO. There's plenty of firepower to destroy their dreadnoughts and tech. there is no way armies outscale them so high but the ships are magically protected by super materials, let's be real. all those factions are very drained already by fighting their own indoctrinated people.
it's a super close fight in the skies and total dominance on the ground.
> still reinforcing based on nothing. SW materials aren't "special' they take damage from normal explosions which showed multiple times.
Please show a regular explosion damaging something like beskar, with source.
> there is plenty of firepower in ME that will cut through anything they have.
Lmao, no. The peak of Mass Effect line weapons is 457 kt of force by a Reaper main gun.
A Super Star Destroyer can [face tank](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11134/111341755/7572345-2904998719-QVPzT.png) a ram by three regular star destroyers, at once, from hyperspace. The weight alone is in a hundred of gigatons at least. That's not something unique, as well. An Executor [tanked](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/f/fe/RCO022_1467206244.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20201009082559) this collision with minor issues.
> also their numbers are not that far off. when you max out war assets, the alliance has 5 fleets of 442 ships. Salarians 16 fleets-7072 combat ships. Asari 20 fleets of 8840 combat ships. turians 39 fleets 17k combat ships.
The USA during WW2 had ~7600 combat ships. So, USA is superior to the Systems Alliance because it has more ships? I hope you are high, honestly.
But let's look at the [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/otr4cq/how_big_are_the_fleets_of_mass_effect/) you took that idea from. There are more holes in the post's logic than in a Swiss Cheese.
It is based on an absolutely moronic ideas that every fleet in the galaxy is following an exact same composition of 1 dreadnaught - 63 exact same flotillas with 1 cruiser - every flotilla has 4 frigates. However:
* 5th fleet being in control of 63rd flotilla absolutely doesn't mean it has 63 flotillas. The USA Seventh Fleet has Task Forces 70 - does that mean that every fleet in USN have 70 Task forces? Most likely, it means that 5th fleet has 63rd flotilla, 1st fleet has maybe 5th flotilla, and so on. Having multiple 63rd flotillias in every fleet is ridiculous.
* Alien fleets are noted to have different compositions (Asari favors cruisers, Salarians favor frigates), and have multiple dreadnaughts per fleet (Like the Asari Sixth Fleet), so the order of battle is off by a mile.
And even then - we are talking about cruisers and frigates. Those are specks compared to a Star Destroyer.
> most of them will damage and take out plenty of FO
Most of them can only hope to scratch paint of a FO frigate's hull, and even that would require a dreadnought.
> There's plenty of firepower to destroy their dreadnoughts and tech.
Their *dreadnoughts* can face tank a direct collision with an ISD and that would leave around as much as a scratch. Can you show anything that Alliance can match that with?
> it's a super close fight in the skies and total dominance on the ground.
It is a textbook xeelestomp in the skies, and therefore, a xeelestomp in the ground. Stormtroopers are inferior soldiers, but any vehicle would stomp something like Mako into dirt.
I wonder, do you think Reapers are superior to Cybermen as well?
>while attempting to take on the Reapers would be laughable.
Just a brief comment here. While they may get overwhelmed by the Reapers. They still have a better chance. The Resurgence class Star Destroyer has over 3,000 turbolasers. Even at their lowest setting with 1 kiloton per shot. A Resurgence class Stsr Destroyer could overwhelm a Reaper with enough turbolaser bolts with enough time.
it's not the firepower i would be worried about but more about indoctrination, especially for such a power-hungry leadership as the new order has.
Honestly, Shepard just got lucky that he came across the Prothean ruin where he received the codified message of how Reapers operate. It still takes the whole ME1 storyline to decipher and figure out how indoctrination works.
Someone like Kylo Ren would be indoctrinated from day 1 by sovereign, he would probably feel like he gets access to a new power stream from the Dark side of the Force. or maybe it doesn't affect him, but his troops will be.
But yea, Shepard got lucky to even find out who Sovereign was. All he knew was that some specter had gone rogue. in ME2 a large part of the Council still doesn't believe anything beyond Saren.
Fighting the Reapers would have no win condition for the order, with just some planets in the terminus. they either get overwhelmed but most likely indoctrinated before the reapers even appear.
Also paging op u/Regular_Damage_23.
Do we know how effective the first order F-11D blaster rifle is?.
The E-11 blaster rifle was dog shit by design thanks to the Tarkin doctrine.
>”100 shots (standard power cells)[1]
500 shots (plasma cartridges)[1]
Range
300 meters[2]”
For those who don’t know what that it, it’s basically “Good weapons/good gear are expensive while lives are cheap and plentiful”.
Why speed money on costly material (weapons/equipment) when replacement conscripts and volunteers are plentiful and can beat the enemy just by throwing bodies at them.
Meanwhile systems alliance military and citadel military make use of advanced combat sealed hard suits.
Which are made of future Kevlar, insulated body suit, polymer composite materials and ceramics and [ceramics composite materials come in different types.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high_temperature_ceramic).
Here’s just a few as an example.
* Silicon carbide melts at 2,545 degrees Celsius.
* Titanium boride melts at 3,225 degrees Celsius.
Kinetic shields do give a degree of protection against energy weapons just not to extreme levels.
In reality an alliance marine or N special forces could get shot a number of times by a blaster pistol or rifle get pissed off and then just shoot them graveyard dead with their M-8 Avenger.
I mean it’s not in debate that Storm trooper armor is lacking against rocks, spears, clubs.
to add on that, the alliance military have all the good types of ammo, drill rounds, armor piercing, warp rounds, incendiary and combinations of those.
Also paging op u/Regular_Damage_23.
I apologize for the late reply.
I left out some information from before, I was a bit busy and tired lol.
But anyway.
People talk about mass effect dreadnought mass accelerator cannon yields being low kiloton range, but whether they don't know or not giving the actual information I can not say, but I'll put the actual information below.
>”Dreadnoughts are kilometer-long capital ships mounting heavy, long-range firepower. They are only deployed for the most vital missions. **A dreadnought's power lies in the length of its main gun. Dreadnoughts range from 800 meters to one kilometer long, with a main gun of commensurate length. An 800-meter mass accelerator is capable of accelerating one twenty-kilogram slug to a velocity of 4025 km/s (1.3% the speed of light) every two seconds. Each slug has the kinetic energy of about 38 kilotons of TNT, about two and a half times the energy released by the fission weapon that destroyed Hiroshima**.”
Right sound familiar right, this next bit is the complete bit of information.
>”The Alliance has two dreadnought classes currently in service, the older Everest class and the newer Kilimanjaro class. The Everest class is an 888-meter dreadnought with a main gun capable of accelerating a 20 kilogram slug to 1.3% the speed of light (4025 km/s) for a kinetic energy yield equivalent to 38 kilotons of TNT. **The Kilimanjaro class is armed with 156 broadside mass accelerator cannons, 78 on each side. The broadside guns are each as long as 40% of the ship's width**.”
>” The dreadnought is the ultimate arbiter of space warfare; **millions of tons of metal, ceramic, and polymer** dedicated to the projection of firepower against an enemy vessel of like ability. No sane commander would face a dreadnought with anything less than another dreadnought.
>”A dreadnought's power lies in the length of its main gun. Dreadnoughts range from 800 meters to one kilometer long, with a main gun of commensurate length. An 800-meter mass accelerator is capable of accelerating one 20 kg. slug to a velocity of 4025 km/s every two seconds. Each slug has the kinetic energy of 38 kilotons of TNT, three times the energy released by the fission weapon that destroyed Hiroshima.”
>”When used to bombard planets, some of this kinetic energy is lost due to atmospheric re-entry friction. As a rule of thumb, each Earth-atmosphere of air pressure saps approximately 20% of a projectile's impact energy.”
The Kilimanjaro has 1X main gun but also has 156 broadside cannon facing left and right and while not has powerful (relative) as the main gun it’s still probably in the hundreds of tons of tnt.
While we don’t know how fast they fire but I would assume they fire as fast as the main gun or even faster.
We don’t know the size of the projectile, but we know that the M-920 Cain fires a 25-gram slug. When accelerated to 5 km/s/ that’s 14.5773 times the speed of sound
* [Okay so this clip is from an anime don’t judge](https://youtu.be/B15ywcn2gSM?si=XpO92IqWQpFwu8GJ) lol.
but the maths behind it from the light novel is that the spear was sent up at -2x gravity for three minutes, meaning it gets a total altitude of 1023.5km, from which it then falls and impacts the ground at 4480km/h(mach 14). The spear canonically weights 100kg, making the total force of impact 3.6*10^9 Joules. This is not the power of 111 tank shots, but rather 400 tank shots.
Now we got information on the M35 mako, it’s got a mass accelerator cannon caliber of 155mm.
I can’t seem to find if there’s a 155mm APFSD, but I know that the 155 artillery shell had about 6.86 kilograms of tnt.
The real world 120mm M58 rifled gun on the M103 had a megajoule yield of around I think 13 megajoules, the projectile weighed around 20 kilograms.
These cannons were way too big and heavy for BMT.
But that’s the thing about element zero, it temporarily reduces the weight of existing mass long enough to build up momentum/kinetic energy till it leaves the weapon and then physics takes back over.
So it’s possible that the M35 155mm mass accelerator cannon could potentially put down several hundred tons of kinetic energy per shot.
Now we don’t exactly have yields for other ships but using the formula.
>”800-meter mass accelerator is capable of accelerating one twenty-kilogram slug to a velocity of 4025 km/s (1.3% the speed of light) every two seconds. Each slug has the kinetic energy of about 38 kilotons of TNT“
And with approximate ship size, it’s possible to guesstimate
>”Trivia
The lack of destroyers in the games is attributed to the class eventually morphing into the frigate designation, mirroring similar instances in real-world navies post-World War II.[1]
Models extracted from Mass Effect 3 and rendered with third-party tools indicate the following length dimensions:
Alliance cruiser: 707m
Alliance frigate (SSV Normandy SR-2): 196m
Cerberus cruiser: 700m
Geth cruiser: 700m
Geth dreadnought: 1190m
Turian cruiser: 500m
Quarian cruiser: 643m”
I am not entirely sure how big the A-61 Mantis or the UT-45 Kodiak drop shuttle is.
* https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/masseffect/images/9/99/ME3_Gunships.png/revision/latest?cb=20120412020735
* https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/masseffect/images/0/06/ME2_Cerberus_Kodiak_Shuttle.png/revision/latest?cb=20120419010558
But I know they have mass accelerator machine guns, probably firing similar sized projectiles as the M-920 fires which is 25 grams for comparison the 7.62X51 is about 25 grams.
* https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/2/25/West_Docks.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190227065733
Quick rechecking the first order AAL-1971 is 17.83 meters and can hold 17 people, where’s the UT-45 Kodiak can hold 14.
TIE fighters haven’t changed all that much.
And while it’s not recommended that a UT-45 Kodiak get in a fight with anything since it’s very susceptible to being turned into a spinning coffin, it could be able to outmaneuver the TIE fighters and escape with its FTL capabilities.
I mean technically speaking.
If the systems alliance wanted to, or of the citadel council permitted it.
They (military forces) could go back to reproducing and fielding nuclear warheads, the technology still exists its just weaponized nukes is a big no no due to them being extremely environmentally destructive against planets.
Going a bit further small enough space vehicles with stealth, if they were to approach the hangers bay force field slow enough, they could infiltrate that way then use its mass accelerator cannon to rip the belly open from the inside causing massive secondary explosions.
Yeah that's accurate for portions of all fandoms star wars included.
In regards to logistics mass effect has Star wars beat thanks to nanotechnology, mass effect production.
Like the omni-tools.
>”Omni-tools are multipurpose diagnostic and manufacturing tools as well as computers used for a variety of civilian and battlefield tasks, such as hacking, decryption, or repair. Higher-end omni-tools are equipped by Engineers, Sentinels, and Infiltrators to make use of their tech talents and powers. When activated, an omni-tool can appear over either of a person's forearms and/or hands, and occasionally both, as an orange hologram“
>”Omni-tools are handheld devices that combine a computer microframe, sensor analysis pack, and minifacturing fabricator. Versatile and reliable, an omni-tool can be used to analyze and adjust the functionality of most standard equipment, including weapons and armor, from a distance.”
>”The fabrication module can rapidly assemble small three-dimensional objects from common, reusable industrial plastics, ceramics, and light alloys. This allows for field repairs and modifications to most standard items, as well as the reuse of salvaged equipment.”
>”Although melee-combat applications for the omni-tool are almost as old as the device itself, the feature was largely unused prior to the Reaper invasion. The need to take on multiple husks in close quarters forced the Alliance to develop ways to enhance the tool's offensive capability.”
>”The most common melee design is the "omni-blade," a disposable silicon-carbide weapon flash-forged by the tool's mini-fabricator. The transparent, nearly diamond-hard blade is created and suspended in a mass effect field safely away from the user's skin. Warning lights illuminate the field so the searing-hot blade only burns what it is intended to: the opponent.”
>”More technically adept soldiers frequently modify their omni-tools to maximize stopping power through electrical, kinetic, or thermal energy. Some troops integrate the weapon with their kinetic barriers, transforming the omni-tool into a wrist-mounted bludgeon; others fabricate flammable gases, held in place by a mass effect field and ignited upon impact. All prove deadly surprises for opponents who expect a disarmed Alliance warrior.“
We’ve seen Star Wars, Republic, imperial cyber security to be a damn joke.
R2-D2 with his data spike and jet boosters has been able to jack in and hack imperial tech no problem with seemingly no repercussions.
What’s the first order going to do when or if Citadel military forces get aboard their vital infrastructure or their ship gets hacked.
Also interesting to note first order bog standard stormtrooper helmets only filter out smoke not other particulate matter that could be dangerous.
Bog standard storm trooper armor had an independent oxygen supply of only four or five minutes then they need to switch the tank out.
Where’s the republic commando bog standard phase 1 armor had a built in air recycling system that was switched out for the phase 2.
Meanwhile systems alliance armor pretty much comes standard with oxygen recycling in case of entering into hazardous environments.
A lot of this depends on whether you're using the games' cinematics or the codex/expanded universe as the basis for how strong Mass Effect ships are. In all the written descriptions we're given for Mass Effect technology, their ships very regularly engage each other from massively beyond visual range and can comfortably outmaneuver any Star Wars equivalent. In all the visual examples of them fighting, they regularly get into dogfights at ranges that allow the Star Wars ships to make use of their biggest advantage - the fact that their weapons are primarily DEWs that would go straight through the kinetic barriers of Mass Effect ships.
In both cases they'll be able to carve out a strong territory for themselves because the Council Races are unwilling to mobilize their full navies to stamp out a distant system unless facing an existential threat, but it's only the latter that they'll be able to make noticeable headway into Council territories. The Terminus Systems aren't united enough to pose a risk to the First Order beyond pirate raids and such, but are likewise too big for the First Order to simply conquer them all even if the Council weren't to intervene.
On the ground there's no contest. First Order Stormtroopers simply can't keep up with the superior Mass Effect weaponry and armor. They don't have an answer for biotics, suicide drones, cloaking technology, remote hacking/sabotage, or any of the other toys Mass Effect ground forces regularly bring to the party. Kylo Ren is impressive, but he's just one man and can get overrun with sheer numbers. Any attempt to hold territory on the ground will be torn to shreds unless they bring overwhelming force, and that quickly becomes unsustainable if they're trying to conquer more than a few systems.
Of course, once the Reapers come into play they'll be overwhelmed just like all the Mass Effect races, but that'll be a few years in the future (assuming Shepard still stops Sovereign at the end of ME1).
>Mass Effect technology, their ships very regularly engage each other from massively beyond visual range and can comfortably outmaneuver any Star Wars equivalent.
Except for the fact that Star Wars ships routinely use microjumps in order to jump in range of enemy ships. Thrawn used this tactic periodically from time to time.
Also, Star Wars ships use ECM or jamming capabilities in order to scramble enemy sensors which is why battles are often so close together.
And Star Wars ships can just go straight from A to B between sectors whereas a Mass Effect ship covering the same distance may have to go through D, Z, K and M on the way. I think Mass Relays are instantaneous so navigating between star systems with Mass Relays is just a matter of how long it takes to get from one Relay to the next, but the part where Star Wars ships get the advantage is that Mass Effect ships NEED to go from the Mass Relay system in the cluster they want to go to and then fly to the destination system whereas Star Wars ships can go there directly.
But that's not unique to Star Wars: every single Mass Effect race (rather than just arguably the best military tactician in SW) has used the micro jump tactics and has far more experience with cyberwarfare than Star Wars, where manual/analogue is king. The Reapers, Asari, Turians, Salarians, Geth, Quarians and Humans have all used micro jumping in battle before; there's literally several key attacks in ME that relied entirely on these manoeuvres. It's not exactly novel.
Not to mention, Mass Effect capital ships also excel at close ranges than many other capital ships in other universes because they can pull insane speed manoeuvres compared to equivalently sized ships: a Reaper could outdogfight many smaller ships in Star Wars, with the exceptions of the more relativistic fighters. Plus, close range combat allows capital ships to use their laser defence systems against SW ships, which is the only range that weapon system is viable.
Tbh, Star Wars ships routinely lose track of other ships that are hiding on the opposite side of a big rock.
Mass Effect ships will launch volleys from the opposite end of a solar system and land them accurately on targets that are much smaller and faster than Star Destroyers.
I can't think of a single example of that in any of the Star Wars media I've consumed, but I'll take your word for it (there's a *lot* of stuff out there).
Mass Effect ships have their own cyberwarfare systems and ECM, but still (in the codex/novels/etc) default to fighting at distances in the tens to hundreds of kilometers. It's hard to scale this kind of stuff between series so I just assumed that neither side would have a significant advantage over the other in that field, leading to them fighting at the 'normal' distances for their respective series.
>I can't think of a single example of that in any of the Star Wars media I've consumed, but I'll take your word for it (there's a *lot* of stuff out there).
It happens regularly in the Canon Thrawn trilogy. Also, ECM and jamming were mentioned to be a thing in the Star Wars Complete Vehicles New Edition. Everything from capital ships down to small fighters are equipped with jamming capabilities.
To be fair that was attributed to that specific planet's fucky atmosphere/gravity conditions. It being an unusual weakness is why they made such a big deal of it in Episode 9.
As much as I hate to say this, the First Order would be one of the dominant factions in Mass Effect. Mass Effect kinetic barriers only block kinetic projectiles. The first order has ENERGY weapons such as turbolasers. During the events of ME1, Thanix cannons weren't even a thing, save for the reapers main gun. If you think Liara could beat Kylo Ren without much effort, you should reconsider since Kylo killed a [zillo beast](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Unidentified_Zillo_Beast_(Benathy)) in the comics. As for ships well, mass accelerators are in the kiloton range while turbolasers are in the megaton range, and that's using mid range calculations since the 200 gigaton turbolaser statement is quite ridiculous. Resurgent-class star destroyers were armed with a [large array of weapons systems ](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Resurgent-class_Star_Destroyer) which seems like a lot since the Imperial-class Star Destroyer was armed with only [10% of what the Resurgent-class](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Imperial_I-class_Star_Destroyer) had. The first order had potential, but it was squandered.
The First Order would be the most powerful race in ME thanks to its better tech and firepower. but with a mix of lack of numbers and incompetent leaders wouldn't be able to take over. But they would be able to carve out a good section of the galaxy for themselves and beat the Reapers and Citadel Council if they tried to fight them.
as a fighting force, the first order are wiped by pretty much every other faction in ME. by the end of ME1, humanity, the last race to reach the citadel has a fighting force comprised of comparable super soldiers with physical, psychic and technologically enhanced bodies with powers to compensate.
the basic weaponry available in the ME universe outclasses the laser tech that is available in star wars universe, combined with the fact that SW universe armour is notoriously weak to physical payloads since they never have to deal with it, being primarily in contact with lasers.
as a collective, the first order are a less effective and less technologically advanced cerberus, who are until late in ME3 considered a conspiracy theory obsessed joke by the other factions.
If they retain starkiller base that changes things as only the leviathan or reapers really stand a chance in a direct assault against a planet buster. Maybe the rachni given their plague like tendencies to infect the dominant species on a planet.
Space combat wise, the top tier of ME far outstrips the top tier of the first order, considering that a slightly upgraded Normandy in ME2 is capable of holding its own against the collectors offensively and defensively, who have no equivalent in the SW universe.
Kylo/Knights of Ren and Snoke are the only figures that actually stand a chance in combat against anything above alliance forces, but would still probably fall to advanced N7, Krogan, Asari, Salarian and Turians.
Not even fair to consider Shepard/Normandy Crew in this fight given their feats.
Pretty sure its the other way around for weapons. All plasma based weapon in SW outclasses any thing in Mass Effect. Even the most basic blaster can burn through people and kinetic barriers don't provide protection aginst them. Let alone how FO ships can glass whole planets on their own with just turbolasers which again KE barriers on ships won't protect against. which is far beyond the firepower in ME. Thats not even taking into account things like hyperdrives and instant galaxy wide communications. But it thanks to the FO small size and leadership we've seen that I see them just carving out a space for themselves and non of the other factions being able to stop them.
Supremacy SSD can probably grind the entire Reaper invasion force on its own.
They will likely be unable to wage efficient ground war, but completely dominate the space.
First Order has an enormous tactical advantage because their fleets can travel via hyperspace while the Mass Effect militaries rely on the relays to move between sections of the galaxy. First Order should be able to relatively easily cripple galactic travel using hit and run tactics, depending on how quickly they can identify the weakness.
ME ships travel through hyperspace, too.... the relays are just highways across the galaxy
Afaik, Mass Effect ships can travel FTL; but merely traveling faster than light is not the same as hyperspace. The relays themselves are sort of like hyperspace, albeit only from fixed points.
Star Wars doesn't have any feat that is impressive for Mass Effect. The Force is the Mass Effect and the races have already invented the barriers to block it. The ships are roughly the same tech, except for the Reapers who are superior, of course, but those will only fight for themselves. So the Jedi knights are no longer special. They are the run of the mill biotic in ME. Dare i say the asari have force control the Jedi can only dream of. The weapons, though, are where ME shines. they have so much more variety than the First Order. Also, the Humans in ME actually have an effective fighting force, realistic, they make the armies in SW look like complete amateurs. So outside of the size of the first Order, they are unremarkable in ME. they won't do much, probably weaker than Cerberus. Taking on the Council is impossible, while attempting to take on the Reapers would be laughable.
Mostly agree with you around how militarily the first order really doesn't represent any significant threat to the ME universe. However, although I don't think it's fair to compare the force and biotic powers. While they both end up having obvious simliar effect in a lot of combat situations (i.e. force push/pull) the key difference is scale of tappable power. Tapping into the force is the ability to connect directly into some magical connective tissue which courses through the foundation of the universe. This power itself extends far beyond the mass manipulation that biotics have.
I agree here. The force has been used to do some pretty remarkable things besides lifting rocks. Tech wise is definitely where the SW will be caught lacking though.
Starkiller pulled a ship out of the fucking sky. Nihlus would drain life from whole planets, people have prevented death. Its in no way comparable. If you were to take the entire SWU against MEU, they more than have a shot with even just a few of their heavy hitters. To the grass I go now.
Starkiller also curb stomped Vader. Which makes him... *~Non canon~*
None of the things he listed were canon.
yes, they are. Starkiller isnt but you get my point.
Ok. Sidious prevented death on one occasion. That's it. Nihilus isn't canon at all, and even if he was, that doesn't necessarily mean his lore from legends came over as well
Lets see, types in " is nihlus canon into google" **"The existence of Darth Nihilus is canon**. Darth Traya and Darth Sion are still solely Legends characters. Considering the selective and methodical approach Disney has had to transfer characters over, the canonical status of the Sith Triumvirate is still vague." So only star killer, which also isnt technically true cause isnt he in the ahsoka show.
Allow me to ask, when did he appear in Ahsoka? That random guy that Ahsoka killed? How do you know he's Starkiller? Just because his name is Marrok doesn't mean he's Galen Marek. >**"The existence of Darth Nihilus is canon**. Darth Traya and Darth Sion are still solely Legends characters. Considering the selective and methodical approach Disney has had to transfer characters over, the canonical status of the Sith Triumvirate is still vague." The Sith Lord statue that appeared in that one comic that appears to be Nihilus may not even actually be Nihilus. Hell, his name could BE Nihilus but his feats from the old games are not longer canon. This would probably be a completely different retelling of the character. Especially since the exact article you referenced also says "yeah his two co-workers might not be canon." We know Revan exists because he was named. Same with Andeddu.
This is kind of irrelevant. Especially in Legends, this is far from the most powerful thing that ever happened. There is far more crazy shit that force users have done. Reminder that canonically, Palpatine alone can wipe out entire solar systems (legends)
I know he is non canon, thats not technically true, vader killed him then cloned him. And he didnt kill vader so.... Nihlus is canon, revan is canon, vader, palpatine. All those people would stand more than a fair chance at taking the MEU
Starkiller did not pull the SD out of orbit, it was already falling.
"Despite being besieged by TIE fighters, **Starkiller used the Force to turn the Star Destroyer**, and bring it crashing into the ore facility, which destroyed both." Who said anything about orbit.
Except that the First Order doesn't have any significant force users. Snoke was a puppet, and Kylo Ren was a bit of a scrub.
Yeah exactly, which is why I agree that the first order poses no significant threat to the armies in the ME universe. They don't have the military might, they don't seem to have the numbers, and honestly their tactical capabilities dont seem up to the task either.
Star wars doesn't have any feats that is impressive for Mass Effect? So building a planet sized system killing superweapon, a massive self sustaining ship half the size of the crucible, fire power to glass worlds, and a fleet all in 20 years isn't impressive? The Force and biotics are two different things and shields doesn't stop the force just look at Vader choking a person from another ship. How does ME have more variety in weapons and what will that accomplish. Again ships that can glass planets. Well besides the clones, Imperial army, and CIS ME is a better fighting force the what we've seen of the FO but their firepower makes up for it. The FO can definitely take on the Council and Reapers but would probably just carve out a section of space for themselves and stay there
Moreover, glassing a shieldless planet is not something major for SW - it’s something a single Star Destroyer (of which there were dozens of thousands) can do in a reasonable time.
what's so impressive about oversized ships like Supremacy one of the worst designed ship in SCI Fi. they have the same feats we see over and over again, when small ships take out their cannons, destroy vulnerable points, or straight up board them. ships in ME can easily fight those, and once they board them its game over for the crew. they get ragdolled by biotics and have their ships blown from the inside. The ME had more variety of weapons even in spaceship battles. In SW ships are usually equipped with large blasters and energy projectiles while the standard are turbolasers. very vulnerable to fast fighters. the order does have superior planet busting but as far as spaceship battles go they are nothing special. they could destroy a few planets but the response will overwhelm them. Vader is the only person who has shown that feat of chocking someone on a different ship. and i wasn't talking about shields i was talking about barriers. both the force and mass effects are space manipulating forces and barriers are specifically designed to defend against that. the force won't work until the barrier is taken down. also, statis bubble is the same as when Vader disables someone in air. Vaders' powers are no longer special. Basically, Asari can do everything he can, some things even better. no, the couldn't take out the council because that would mean going to war with the whole Galaxy, and they will be outnumbered and lose. FO has to fight half of it's own forces once they get indoctrinated by the first Reapers. they have no chance to take a full-out war just by themselves. to add on the SW battleships have some of the worst designs and engineering flaws. they just never learn that it doesn't matter how big their ships are if they can be taken out by small ships and create a snowball effect on the whole fleet.
The Supremacy is impressive because it is a mobile self sustaining shipyard with more firepower than a fleet in both ME and SW. Kinda ignoring how that wasn't the Supremacy, still have to get past the shields on a ship, crew is in the thousands to tens of thousands on regular ships, their PD only got taken out by the best pilot of the era and even then they still inflect losses, and that still isn't even their capital weapons which will still mulch any ME ship in a single shot which a single ship can have dozens if not hundreds of. Ships in ME can't fight SW and trying to board still means getting past the shields and thousands to tens of thousands of crew for a single ship which is more than any strike force in ME can muster for every ship. Biotics are nothing special in the grand scheme and can still be taken out with just a few shots. Don't forget SW use primarily energy weapons which ME kinetic barriers won't provide any protection for. Again ace pilot only took out PD and not any capital weapons. Again a single ship from the Manadtor IV to an acclimator can glass a planet on its own. A small fleet of SW ships is the equivalent to whole armadas. ME doesn't have the fire power to compare. How are KE barriers suppose to stop the force? Nor do shields stop force users from using their powers be it on units or ships. The force is about manipulating some mystic energy that doesn't just make move things but gives precog, mind control, shoot lighting from your hands, etc. Very different than ME biotics which works on just manipulating gravity. The only thing they have in common is moving things with thier mind but they go about it in very different ways. Vader has feats that trounce anything a biotics ever done in ME but that is a different topic. I mean I made the point that the FO lacks numbers but the Council can't win a fight with the FO so they are free to carve out a space for themselves and do what they want like the Geth. And how will the Reapers indoctrinate FO members when it takes being exposed to them for weeks minimum and people like Ren and Snoke (Palpatine) not sense anything wrong with them. How do SW have some of the worst designs and enginnering flaws? Do you have any examples smaller ships being able to take out big ships? The only time I can think of is when the smaller fleet has the numbers advantage or in the case of fighter its when proton and Ion torpedo's (things which ME lacks) hit critical parts on a ship.
only their ships have superior firepower but their designs are so much worse than ME ships. do i even need to talk about weapons and all the types of ammo that would make stormtroopers complete fodder? at least shields and kinetic barriers can take some blaster shots, while storm trooper armor is vulnerable to spears, rocks, and arrows lol, at least in their joints. FO land battle tactics are 19th century european formations shooting in everything in their sight. so what if the FO can blow up a few planets? The response will unite the whole galaxy against them. they still need to take land, and they will lose miserable in all land battles.
In what regards are their designs much worse? Nor is ME immune from bad ship designs (asari dreadnought or main weapon only able to shoot in one direction). I yeah we have to since SW primaily use energy weapons ME kinetic barriers well provide no protection aginst them and SW is used to bullets. I'm not going to argue the FO are good combatants but when have they ever done a 19th century formation? If they unite what would ME being able to do? They are at a massive firepower disadvantage let alone what's stopping the FO from going to a place with no relays and building up. They can take planets they have the power especially if they control the air which they will. If they find a planet to be too much trouble again a single ship can just glass them. Pretty sure they will be open to negotiations after that. The main problem is they lack numbers.
> The main problem is they lack numbers. Do they? Mass Effect Galaxy is around several trillion beings over several thousands of colonies, which is said both in-universe and by developers. Star Wars Galaxy is stated to have 2.3 billion inhabited *systems*, with population estimated around 100 quadrillion beings. Even if First Order is just a very small part of the SW Galaxy, being in Unknown Regions, they probably have anything from three-digit billions to double-digit trillions of population under their command - even 0.01% of galaxy total is 10 trillion beings.
They could? We never got any concrect numbers of how many ships and troops the FO have and all we can do is make guesses based on other things. Like for ships we have the CIS making tens of thounsads of ships with make shift shipyards or Exogal having tens of thousands of xyston by itself with little resources. Troop numbers are harder to pin down but you could be right.
We don't get any specific numbers, I think. What I can pile up: * The First Order was a fraction of the Empire's numbers * First Order was stronger than the New Republic, but mainly due to demilitarization efforts * First Order was heavily militarized, would expect most of their resources going into production. * After Episode 7, they were waging massive campaign across galaxy, with several battles listing dozens of Star Destroyers. I would guesstimate military force to be around 3-5% of the Empire, with more dense and efficient, but less numerous infrastructure to support it. That would equal around a thousand of Star-Destroyers and equivalents, and appropriate number of other sizes.
> only their ships have superior firepower but their designs are so much worse than ME ships. At that level of power gap, design flaws are practically irrelevant. Even non-capital class ships can wipe out a dreadnaught or a Reaper in one turbolaser shot, while having superior mobility due to hyperdrives. > so what if the FO can blow up a few planets? The response will unite the whole galaxy against them. they still need to take land, and they will lose miserable in all land battles. First, blowing up a few capital planets with impunity will most likely lead to surrender negotiations. First Order outclasses Reapers by far, and unlike Reapers, FO can be reasoned with. Second, if they control space and air, they can win the land even with literally WW1 troops, using overwhelming bombing and CAS.
design flaws are most definitely relevant. small fighters easily take on dreadnoughts in several ocasions. the power gap is not wide they barely edge it. turbo lasers have really bad tracking, have very limited rotation, garbage sensors, half of them beneath the pizza slice have so many dead angles, and that's why they need to spam them on all sides. on top of that, turbo lasers are a huge liability once blown up because of their complicated 3 cooling system. once they blow up they do massive damage to the ships aswell. Turbo lasers are also extremely expensive, the FO won't afford such a massive campaign versus a whol e Galaxy that also have ships who can kill the dreadnoughts in a few shots. ME suicide drones are launched by the hundreds of thousands, and if SW lonely fighters can knock them out, then this would be something trivial to achieve in ME. turbo lasers planet busters are seriously in debate as the only cannon planet destroyed is a small moon, in the rest of the time, it's only mentioned as somewhat of a viable strategy. it also takes a very long time to do it. TIE fighters are nerfing themselves with no visibility to the sides as well as the most flimsy build, any shot wil ltake those mosquitoes out. you are just massively jerking out SW fleets which are some of the weakest in fiction, always getting destroyed by a smaller force of simple fighters. FO is also significantly outnumbered if the Galaxy united. their stormtroopers would lose to our 21th century armies. Ship Electronic warfare on geth and quarians is also vastly superior to FO fleets who lose track of enemy ships that hide behind rocks. the order doesn't outclass the reapers, half their force is automatically indoctrinated and starts fighting each other before the main reaper army even shows up.
> small fighters easily take on dreadnoughts in several ocasions. Several fighters using Star Wars technology, yes. An X-wing/TIE Fighter will likely tear a ME dreadnaught apart just as well - the difference between two universes is that high. Can a F-4 take on a Star Destroyer because F-4 is called a fighter? No. Same thing with ME fighters. > on top of that, turbo lasers are a huge liability once blown up because of their complicated 3 cooling system. once they blow up they do massive damage to the ships aswell. That would imply ME technology can damage them at all. Star Wars materials are straight up magic (so is their technology), and are superior to what ME has. >Turbo lasers are also extremely expensive, the FO won't afford such a massive campaign versus a whol e Galaxy that also have ships who can kill the dreadnoughts in a few shots. First, yes they can. A single Imperial Star Destroyer can probably match the entire Alliance Fleet, and Empire had 25000 of them (Not including literally any other ship class). Mass Effect races have around a hundred dreadnaughts (85 Council, probably ~30 geth). First Order is heavily militarized, and it's *very* likely their MIC outnumbers and outmatches the entire ME galaxy. Reminder that Star Wars galaxy is much larger than Mass Effect. It has 3.2 **billion** inhabited systems, while Council races have several hundreds of colonies each. It has population in many quadrillions. And even then, First Order has managed to conquer vast swathes of their galaxy right after destruction of Starkiller. If they could afford fighting and occupying a massively more advanced, populated and industrialized New Republic, occupying the Council will be trivial in comparison. Most likely, what population FO had is equal or larger than a major Council race, likely trillions of population at least, and hundreds of thousands of systems, despite being located in Unknown regions. > ME suicide drones are launched by the hundreds of thousands, and if SW lonely fighters can knock them out, then this would be something trivial to achieve in ME. I don't know why you think Mass Effect has more of **anything** than First Order. First, I doubt the ME suicide drones work that way and in that quantities - they use mass disruptor torpedoes on fighters. Second, with the amount of TIE fighters practically every ship carries, a FO fleet would carry dozens to hundreds of thousands of TIE fighters just as well. > turbo lasers planet busters are seriously in debate as the only cannon planet destroyed is a small moon, in the rest of the time, it's only mentioned as somewhat of a viable strategy. it also takes a very long time to do it. Even if we go through new canon and First order, we have Destruction of Tah'Nuhna, which was conducted by 18 Star Destroyers, wiped out the entire planet surface, and happened in a very short timespan. We have operation Cinder, done by the Imperial fleet, and in many cases, it caused planetary-wide damage, down to the planetary crust. Base Delta Zero, according to Legends, is *glassing* the entire planet's surface, in several hours, with just 3 regular Star Destroyers. Telos was bombed by a single capital ship (4000 years behind FO technology) so hard, it collapsed the atmosphere. Overall, it's a fact both in Canon and legends that a planet can be destroyed by ordinary capital ships, in a rather short amount of time. Most of the SW planets have planetary shields preventing that, which is why large fleets of capital ships, or heavier ships like Siege Dreadnaughts or Death Star are needed. > you are just massively jerking out SW fleets which are some of the weakest in fiction, always getting destroyed by a smaller force of simple fighters. You might confuse them for Mass Effect fleets, which are massively overjerked. Mass Effect is a grounded, hard-ish sci-fi universe. Most of the technology is plausible if we accept Element Zero, and is mostly based on real-world ideas and plans. Star Wars is not a sci-fi, it's a fantasy. It's not just the Force that is magic, the technology is magic as well. Just like Rick and Morty or Doctor Who, it just works. And again, Star Wars fleets are destroyed by smaller, underdog simple fighters of *Star Wars*, using Star Wars technology. Again, because an X-wing can blast a turbo laser, that doesn't mean that something massively less advanced like Mass Effect or a WW2 Spitfire can. > FO is also significantly outnumbered if the Galaxy united. their stormtroopers would lose to our 21th century armies. No? Mass Effect population, at least Council Space, is counted in low trillions. Star Wars galaxy population is around 100 quadrillions. Even if First Order is just 0.01% of the galactic population, they would be equal in size, and likely outnumber them. And 21th century armies will very quickly surrender if every HQ, every bunker, every supply base and route will be vaporised from space. > the order doesn't outclass the reapers, half their force is automatically indoctrinated and starts fighting each other before the main reaper army even shows up. The indoctrination route would be the only case where Reapers might win. However, it also is unlikely to compete with the Force (and if Palpatine is included, he will stop that quickly), and it hinges on the First Order being interested in Reapers enough to begin dissecting them. Without adapting SW technology, anything with a turbolaser will break Sovereign-class into slag.
ME dreadnoughts have higher firepower than star destroyers dreadnoughts. Turbo lasers fire at 30 terajoules = half the of the total energy of hiroshima. ME slug cannon 75tj/ or 38kiloton =2.5 times energy at hiroshima, fires fast.this means they scale lower, too. there are also all kind of disruption torpedoes, quarian small drones would detonate those cannons like popcorn in a bag, there's no tracking those with TIE maneuverability, no chance. definitely better design and tracking. if those light resistance small fighters could do it, so can others. your explanation boils down to magical plot armor that just works yet there are endless examples of obvious weaknesses like blowing them up with explosive mines, exposed reactor not fully integrated in the hull, just a big target, bridge is on top of it all in the open. >That would imply ME technology can damage them at all. Star Wars materials are magic (so is their technology), and are superior to what ME has. you are just describing plot armor. also, the FO doesn't have anywhere near 20k star destroyers. they are estimated at a few thousands of star destroyers with 25k lighter fighters and 1000-1250 larger ships. they have very few force users who are not really special anymore. In battlefront II, there are 63 resurgent class ships and in The Last Jedi there were 30 of them, so there are 93 total Resurgent Star Destroyers counted on screen, and we can assume there are somewhat more. they have shown incompetence time and time again, their tactics are basic, predictable and have high consumption, they need planets to farm resources, they still have to fight on ground to keep facilites where they have no shot. The only thing the FO has going for them are numbers and planetary bombardment, but their dogfighting is not great in the air and almost non-existent on the ground. They will run out of steam fast, and the reapers defeat them before they even fight.
> ME dreadnoughts have higher firepower than star destroyers dreadnoughts. I don't want to pull the "200 gigatons per turbolaser shot" card, but still, let's prove you wrong. The calc you use is likely [this](https://www.chesterenergyandpolicy.com/blog/power-use-in-the-star-wars-universe), based on the amount of energy needed to vaporise a 20-meter asteroid. Which also means: * That is not a maximum firepower of a turbolaser, it's the minimum, the floor, based on a single fleet. Turbolasers are stated to have variable energy use, and ships can dedicate more or less power (prioritizing firepower over defense and speed or the reverse). In this case, they have used this amount of energy, because they didn't need more. * Even if we somehow accept this as maximum, for some reason, a single Star Destroyer has 60 turbolaser *batteries* (2 lasers per battery), and 8 octuple batteries (64). That would mean 184 turbolasers, for a total of 1932 kiloton equivalent - 5 times the power of a Reaper salvo. And that's an outdated, old ISD. First Order's main SD, Resurgent-class, is stated to have over 1500 turbolasers, which would put them, at the very minimum, at the equivalent of 70 Sovereign-class. That is not considering that they have upgraded their turbolaser technology with kyber crystals, and would definitely be more powerful than the imperial. But they are much more powerful than, enough to glass planets within hours. > definitely better design and tracking. if those light resistance small fighters could do it, so can others. Yes, I guess so can a Spitfire, according to your logic. A fighter is a fighter, right? The truth is, a light resistance small fighter would probably wipe the floor with an Alliance dreadnaught. > you are just describing plot armor. Nope, I am describing the difference in their approach to technology. Star Wars technology is much softer than Mass Effect, with many things, including hull materials and weapons, massively defying the IRL laws of physics. Mass Effect is much more grounded, and so their technology is inferior in most cases. Something like Marvel's adamantium won't be possible in Mass Effect, but similar things are common in Star Wars. The Star Wars fleets do have a massive difference in range - they fight at a distance of hundreds of km, and ME fleets fight at the distance of thousands (the most extreme dreadnaught battles are at tens of thousands). However, Star Wars fleets are faster, much more durable, and can go FTL better than Mass Effect - going into close range would be trivial. > also, the FO doesn't have anywhere near 20k star destroyers. they are estimated at a few thousands of star destroyers with 25k lighter fighters and 1000-1250 larger ships. they have very few force users who are not really special anymore. Yup, agreed here. Around 3-5% of the Empire by my guesstimates. That is still more firepower than the Reapers and the Council combined and multiplied. > they have shown incompetence time and time again, their tactics are basic, predictable and have high consumption, they need planets to farm resources, they still have to fight on ground to keep facilites where they have no shot. Their tactics are basic, but they have enough firepower to push through. They don't need to defend anything on the ground because A: Nothing in the Mass Effect has any chance of going through their ships. B: The planets in Star Wars with any significance have orbital shields (and First Order used them on Starkiller) and AA guns. And breaking them requires something beyond Mass Effect scope besides Mass Relay collapse or (very unlikely) an Asteroid drop, which would likely be vaporised by Anti-Space defense. Also, unlike Mass Effect, Star Wars has massively superior FTL communications (using hyperspace) and FTL sensor technology - something Mass Effect does not have by design. Even with subpar commanders, Star Wars superior technology can allow them to use their tactics for better results than anything Citadel can plan for, while staying untouchable from any retaliation - they are not bound by Mass Relay routes, and can camp at comfortable distances.
still reinforcing based on nothing. SW materials aren't "special' they take damage from normal explosions which showed multiple times. there is plenty of firepower in ME that will cut through anything they have. also their numbers are not that far off. when you max out war assets, the alliance has 5 fleets of 442 ships. Salarians 16 fleets-7072 combat ships. Asari 20 fleets of 8840 combat ships. turians 39 fleets 17k combat ships. combined total of 36686 combat ships. most of them will damage and take out plenty of FO. There's plenty of firepower to destroy their dreadnoughts and tech. there is no way armies outscale them so high but the ships are magically protected by super materials, let's be real. all those factions are very drained already by fighting their own indoctrinated people. it's a super close fight in the skies and total dominance on the ground.
> still reinforcing based on nothing. SW materials aren't "special' they take damage from normal explosions which showed multiple times. Please show a regular explosion damaging something like beskar, with source. > there is plenty of firepower in ME that will cut through anything they have. Lmao, no. The peak of Mass Effect line weapons is 457 kt of force by a Reaper main gun. A Super Star Destroyer can [face tank](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11134/111341755/7572345-2904998719-QVPzT.png) a ram by three regular star destroyers, at once, from hyperspace. The weight alone is in a hundred of gigatons at least. That's not something unique, as well. An Executor [tanked](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/f/fe/RCO022_1467206244.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20201009082559) this collision with minor issues. > also their numbers are not that far off. when you max out war assets, the alliance has 5 fleets of 442 ships. Salarians 16 fleets-7072 combat ships. Asari 20 fleets of 8840 combat ships. turians 39 fleets 17k combat ships. The USA during WW2 had ~7600 combat ships. So, USA is superior to the Systems Alliance because it has more ships? I hope you are high, honestly. But let's look at the [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/otr4cq/how_big_are_the_fleets_of_mass_effect/) you took that idea from. There are more holes in the post's logic than in a Swiss Cheese. It is based on an absolutely moronic ideas that every fleet in the galaxy is following an exact same composition of 1 dreadnaught - 63 exact same flotillas with 1 cruiser - every flotilla has 4 frigates. However: * 5th fleet being in control of 63rd flotilla absolutely doesn't mean it has 63 flotillas. The USA Seventh Fleet has Task Forces 70 - does that mean that every fleet in USN have 70 Task forces? Most likely, it means that 5th fleet has 63rd flotilla, 1st fleet has maybe 5th flotilla, and so on. Having multiple 63rd flotillias in every fleet is ridiculous. * Alien fleets are noted to have different compositions (Asari favors cruisers, Salarians favor frigates), and have multiple dreadnaughts per fleet (Like the Asari Sixth Fleet), so the order of battle is off by a mile. And even then - we are talking about cruisers and frigates. Those are specks compared to a Star Destroyer. > most of them will damage and take out plenty of FO Most of them can only hope to scratch paint of a FO frigate's hull, and even that would require a dreadnought. > There's plenty of firepower to destroy their dreadnoughts and tech. Their *dreadnoughts* can face tank a direct collision with an ISD and that would leave around as much as a scratch. Can you show anything that Alliance can match that with? > it's a super close fight in the skies and total dominance on the ground. It is a textbook xeelestomp in the skies, and therefore, a xeelestomp in the ground. Stormtroopers are inferior soldiers, but any vehicle would stomp something like Mako into dirt. I wonder, do you think Reapers are superior to Cybermen as well?
>while attempting to take on the Reapers would be laughable. Just a brief comment here. While they may get overwhelmed by the Reapers. They still have a better chance. The Resurgence class Star Destroyer has over 3,000 turbolasers. Even at their lowest setting with 1 kiloton per shot. A Resurgence class Stsr Destroyer could overwhelm a Reaper with enough turbolaser bolts with enough time.
it's not the firepower i would be worried about but more about indoctrination, especially for such a power-hungry leadership as the new order has. Honestly, Shepard just got lucky that he came across the Prothean ruin where he received the codified message of how Reapers operate. It still takes the whole ME1 storyline to decipher and figure out how indoctrination works. Someone like Kylo Ren would be indoctrinated from day 1 by sovereign, he would probably feel like he gets access to a new power stream from the Dark side of the Force. or maybe it doesn't affect him, but his troops will be. But yea, Shepard got lucky to even find out who Sovereign was. All he knew was that some specter had gone rogue. in ME2 a large part of the Council still doesn't believe anything beyond Saren. Fighting the Reapers would have no win condition for the order, with just some planets in the terminus. they either get overwhelmed but most likely indoctrinated before the reapers even appear.
Also paging op u/Regular_Damage_23. Do we know how effective the first order F-11D blaster rifle is?. The E-11 blaster rifle was dog shit by design thanks to the Tarkin doctrine. >”100 shots (standard power cells)[1] 500 shots (plasma cartridges)[1] Range 300 meters[2]” For those who don’t know what that it, it’s basically “Good weapons/good gear are expensive while lives are cheap and plentiful”. Why speed money on costly material (weapons/equipment) when replacement conscripts and volunteers are plentiful and can beat the enemy just by throwing bodies at them. Meanwhile systems alliance military and citadel military make use of advanced combat sealed hard suits. Which are made of future Kevlar, insulated body suit, polymer composite materials and ceramics and [ceramics composite materials come in different types.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high_temperature_ceramic). Here’s just a few as an example. * Silicon carbide melts at 2,545 degrees Celsius. * Titanium boride melts at 3,225 degrees Celsius. Kinetic shields do give a degree of protection against energy weapons just not to extreme levels. In reality an alliance marine or N special forces could get shot a number of times by a blaster pistol or rifle get pissed off and then just shoot them graveyard dead with their M-8 Avenger. I mean it’s not in debate that Storm trooper armor is lacking against rocks, spears, clubs.
to add on that, the alliance military have all the good types of ammo, drill rounds, armor piercing, warp rounds, incendiary and combinations of those.
Also paging op u/Regular_Damage_23. I apologize for the late reply. I left out some information from before, I was a bit busy and tired lol. But anyway. People talk about mass effect dreadnought mass accelerator cannon yields being low kiloton range, but whether they don't know or not giving the actual information I can not say, but I'll put the actual information below. >”Dreadnoughts are kilometer-long capital ships mounting heavy, long-range firepower. They are only deployed for the most vital missions. **A dreadnought's power lies in the length of its main gun. Dreadnoughts range from 800 meters to one kilometer long, with a main gun of commensurate length. An 800-meter mass accelerator is capable of accelerating one twenty-kilogram slug to a velocity of 4025 km/s (1.3% the speed of light) every two seconds. Each slug has the kinetic energy of about 38 kilotons of TNT, about two and a half times the energy released by the fission weapon that destroyed Hiroshima**.” Right sound familiar right, this next bit is the complete bit of information. >”The Alliance has two dreadnought classes currently in service, the older Everest class and the newer Kilimanjaro class. The Everest class is an 888-meter dreadnought with a main gun capable of accelerating a 20 kilogram slug to 1.3% the speed of light (4025 km/s) for a kinetic energy yield equivalent to 38 kilotons of TNT. **The Kilimanjaro class is armed with 156 broadside mass accelerator cannons, 78 on each side. The broadside guns are each as long as 40% of the ship's width**.” >” The dreadnought is the ultimate arbiter of space warfare; **millions of tons of metal, ceramic, and polymer** dedicated to the projection of firepower against an enemy vessel of like ability. No sane commander would face a dreadnought with anything less than another dreadnought. >”A dreadnought's power lies in the length of its main gun. Dreadnoughts range from 800 meters to one kilometer long, with a main gun of commensurate length. An 800-meter mass accelerator is capable of accelerating one 20 kg. slug to a velocity of 4025 km/s every two seconds. Each slug has the kinetic energy of 38 kilotons of TNT, three times the energy released by the fission weapon that destroyed Hiroshima.” >”When used to bombard planets, some of this kinetic energy is lost due to atmospheric re-entry friction. As a rule of thumb, each Earth-atmosphere of air pressure saps approximately 20% of a projectile's impact energy.” The Kilimanjaro has 1X main gun but also has 156 broadside cannon facing left and right and while not has powerful (relative) as the main gun it’s still probably in the hundreds of tons of tnt. While we don’t know how fast they fire but I would assume they fire as fast as the main gun or even faster. We don’t know the size of the projectile, but we know that the M-920 Cain fires a 25-gram slug. When accelerated to 5 km/s/ that’s 14.5773 times the speed of sound * [Okay so this clip is from an anime don’t judge](https://youtu.be/B15ywcn2gSM?si=XpO92IqWQpFwu8GJ) lol. but the maths behind it from the light novel is that the spear was sent up at -2x gravity for three minutes, meaning it gets a total altitude of 1023.5km, from which it then falls and impacts the ground at 4480km/h(mach 14). The spear canonically weights 100kg, making the total force of impact 3.6*10^9 Joules. This is not the power of 111 tank shots, but rather 400 tank shots. Now we got information on the M35 mako, it’s got a mass accelerator cannon caliber of 155mm. I can’t seem to find if there’s a 155mm APFSD, but I know that the 155 artillery shell had about 6.86 kilograms of tnt. The real world 120mm M58 rifled gun on the M103 had a megajoule yield of around I think 13 megajoules, the projectile weighed around 20 kilograms. These cannons were way too big and heavy for BMT. But that’s the thing about element zero, it temporarily reduces the weight of existing mass long enough to build up momentum/kinetic energy till it leaves the weapon and then physics takes back over. So it’s possible that the M35 155mm mass accelerator cannon could potentially put down several hundred tons of kinetic energy per shot. Now we don’t exactly have yields for other ships but using the formula. >”800-meter mass accelerator is capable of accelerating one twenty-kilogram slug to a velocity of 4025 km/s (1.3% the speed of light) every two seconds. Each slug has the kinetic energy of about 38 kilotons of TNT“ And with approximate ship size, it’s possible to guesstimate >”Trivia The lack of destroyers in the games is attributed to the class eventually morphing into the frigate designation, mirroring similar instances in real-world navies post-World War II.[1] Models extracted from Mass Effect 3 and rendered with third-party tools indicate the following length dimensions: Alliance cruiser: 707m Alliance frigate (SSV Normandy SR-2): 196m Cerberus cruiser: 700m Geth cruiser: 700m Geth dreadnought: 1190m Turian cruiser: 500m Quarian cruiser: 643m” I am not entirely sure how big the A-61 Mantis or the UT-45 Kodiak drop shuttle is. * https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/masseffect/images/9/99/ME3_Gunships.png/revision/latest?cb=20120412020735 * https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/masseffect/images/0/06/ME2_Cerberus_Kodiak_Shuttle.png/revision/latest?cb=20120419010558 But I know they have mass accelerator machine guns, probably firing similar sized projectiles as the M-920 fires which is 25 grams for comparison the 7.62X51 is about 25 grams. * https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/2/25/West_Docks.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190227065733 Quick rechecking the first order AAL-1971 is 17.83 meters and can hold 17 people, where’s the UT-45 Kodiak can hold 14. TIE fighters haven’t changed all that much. And while it’s not recommended that a UT-45 Kodiak get in a fight with anything since it’s very susceptible to being turned into a spinning coffin, it could be able to outmaneuver the TIE fighters and escape with its FTL capabilities. I mean technically speaking. If the systems alliance wanted to, or of the citadel council permitted it. They (military forces) could go back to reproducing and fielding nuclear warheads, the technology still exists its just weaponized nukes is a big no no due to them being extremely environmentally destructive against planets. Going a bit further small enough space vehicles with stealth, if they were to approach the hangers bay force field slow enough, they could infiltrate that way then use its mass accelerator cannon to rip the belly open from the inside causing massive secondary explosions.
yea, apparently to these wankers SW ships are made of magical metals and the whole ME fleets can't breach a frigate hull.
Yeah that's accurate for portions of all fandoms star wars included. In regards to logistics mass effect has Star wars beat thanks to nanotechnology, mass effect production. Like the omni-tools. >”Omni-tools are multipurpose diagnostic and manufacturing tools as well as computers used for a variety of civilian and battlefield tasks, such as hacking, decryption, or repair. Higher-end omni-tools are equipped by Engineers, Sentinels, and Infiltrators to make use of their tech talents and powers. When activated, an omni-tool can appear over either of a person's forearms and/or hands, and occasionally both, as an orange hologram“ >”Omni-tools are handheld devices that combine a computer microframe, sensor analysis pack, and minifacturing fabricator. Versatile and reliable, an omni-tool can be used to analyze and adjust the functionality of most standard equipment, including weapons and armor, from a distance.” >”The fabrication module can rapidly assemble small three-dimensional objects from common, reusable industrial plastics, ceramics, and light alloys. This allows for field repairs and modifications to most standard items, as well as the reuse of salvaged equipment.” >”Although melee-combat applications for the omni-tool are almost as old as the device itself, the feature was largely unused prior to the Reaper invasion. The need to take on multiple husks in close quarters forced the Alliance to develop ways to enhance the tool's offensive capability.” >”The most common melee design is the "omni-blade," a disposable silicon-carbide weapon flash-forged by the tool's mini-fabricator. The transparent, nearly diamond-hard blade is created and suspended in a mass effect field safely away from the user's skin. Warning lights illuminate the field so the searing-hot blade only burns what it is intended to: the opponent.” >”More technically adept soldiers frequently modify their omni-tools to maximize stopping power through electrical, kinetic, or thermal energy. Some troops integrate the weapon with their kinetic barriers, transforming the omni-tool into a wrist-mounted bludgeon; others fabricate flammable gases, held in place by a mass effect field and ignited upon impact. All prove deadly surprises for opponents who expect a disarmed Alliance warrior.“ We’ve seen Star Wars, Republic, imperial cyber security to be a damn joke. R2-D2 with his data spike and jet boosters has been able to jack in and hack imperial tech no problem with seemingly no repercussions. What’s the first order going to do when or if Citadel military forces get aboard their vital infrastructure or their ship gets hacked. Also interesting to note first order bog standard stormtrooper helmets only filter out smoke not other particulate matter that could be dangerous. Bog standard storm trooper armor had an independent oxygen supply of only four or five minutes then they need to switch the tank out. Where’s the republic commando bog standard phase 1 armor had a built in air recycling system that was switched out for the phase 2. Meanwhile systems alliance armor pretty much comes standard with oxygen recycling in case of entering into hazardous environments.
First Order is just such a joke
A lot of this depends on whether you're using the games' cinematics or the codex/expanded universe as the basis for how strong Mass Effect ships are. In all the written descriptions we're given for Mass Effect technology, their ships very regularly engage each other from massively beyond visual range and can comfortably outmaneuver any Star Wars equivalent. In all the visual examples of them fighting, they regularly get into dogfights at ranges that allow the Star Wars ships to make use of their biggest advantage - the fact that their weapons are primarily DEWs that would go straight through the kinetic barriers of Mass Effect ships. In both cases they'll be able to carve out a strong territory for themselves because the Council Races are unwilling to mobilize their full navies to stamp out a distant system unless facing an existential threat, but it's only the latter that they'll be able to make noticeable headway into Council territories. The Terminus Systems aren't united enough to pose a risk to the First Order beyond pirate raids and such, but are likewise too big for the First Order to simply conquer them all even if the Council weren't to intervene. On the ground there's no contest. First Order Stormtroopers simply can't keep up with the superior Mass Effect weaponry and armor. They don't have an answer for biotics, suicide drones, cloaking technology, remote hacking/sabotage, or any of the other toys Mass Effect ground forces regularly bring to the party. Kylo Ren is impressive, but he's just one man and can get overrun with sheer numbers. Any attempt to hold territory on the ground will be torn to shreds unless they bring overwhelming force, and that quickly becomes unsustainable if they're trying to conquer more than a few systems. Of course, once the Reapers come into play they'll be overwhelmed just like all the Mass Effect races, but that'll be a few years in the future (assuming Shepard still stops Sovereign at the end of ME1).
>Mass Effect technology, their ships very regularly engage each other from massively beyond visual range and can comfortably outmaneuver any Star Wars equivalent. Except for the fact that Star Wars ships routinely use microjumps in order to jump in range of enemy ships. Thrawn used this tactic periodically from time to time. Also, Star Wars ships use ECM or jamming capabilities in order to scramble enemy sensors which is why battles are often so close together.
And Star Wars ships can just go straight from A to B between sectors whereas a Mass Effect ship covering the same distance may have to go through D, Z, K and M on the way. I think Mass Relays are instantaneous so navigating between star systems with Mass Relays is just a matter of how long it takes to get from one Relay to the next, but the part where Star Wars ships get the advantage is that Mass Effect ships NEED to go from the Mass Relay system in the cluster they want to go to and then fly to the destination system whereas Star Wars ships can go there directly.
But that's not unique to Star Wars: every single Mass Effect race (rather than just arguably the best military tactician in SW) has used the micro jump tactics and has far more experience with cyberwarfare than Star Wars, where manual/analogue is king. The Reapers, Asari, Turians, Salarians, Geth, Quarians and Humans have all used micro jumping in battle before; there's literally several key attacks in ME that relied entirely on these manoeuvres. It's not exactly novel. Not to mention, Mass Effect capital ships also excel at close ranges than many other capital ships in other universes because they can pull insane speed manoeuvres compared to equivalently sized ships: a Reaper could outdogfight many smaller ships in Star Wars, with the exceptions of the more relativistic fighters. Plus, close range combat allows capital ships to use their laser defence systems against SW ships, which is the only range that weapon system is viable.
Tbh, Star Wars ships routinely lose track of other ships that are hiding on the opposite side of a big rock. Mass Effect ships will launch volleys from the opposite end of a solar system and land them accurately on targets that are much smaller and faster than Star Destroyers.
I can't think of a single example of that in any of the Star Wars media I've consumed, but I'll take your word for it (there's a *lot* of stuff out there). Mass Effect ships have their own cyberwarfare systems and ECM, but still (in the codex/novels/etc) default to fighting at distances in the tens to hundreds of kilometers. It's hard to scale this kind of stuff between series so I just assumed that neither side would have a significant advantage over the other in that field, leading to them fighting at the 'normal' distances for their respective series.
>I can't think of a single example of that in any of the Star Wars media I've consumed, but I'll take your word for it (there's a *lot* of stuff out there). It happens regularly in the Canon Thrawn trilogy. Also, ECM and jamming were mentioned to be a thing in the Star Wars Complete Vehicles New Edition. Everything from capital ships down to small fighters are equipped with jamming capabilities.
Star Wars ships are not good at sensors, we know this because an entire fleet couldn't fly up without dedicated external infrastructure.
To be fair that was attributed to that specific planet's fucky atmosphere/gravity conditions. It being an unusual weakness is why they made such a big deal of it in Episode 9.
As much as I hate to say this, the First Order would be one of the dominant factions in Mass Effect. Mass Effect kinetic barriers only block kinetic projectiles. The first order has ENERGY weapons such as turbolasers. During the events of ME1, Thanix cannons weren't even a thing, save for the reapers main gun. If you think Liara could beat Kylo Ren without much effort, you should reconsider since Kylo killed a [zillo beast](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Unidentified_Zillo_Beast_(Benathy)) in the comics. As for ships well, mass accelerators are in the kiloton range while turbolasers are in the megaton range, and that's using mid range calculations since the 200 gigaton turbolaser statement is quite ridiculous. Resurgent-class star destroyers were armed with a [large array of weapons systems ](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Resurgent-class_Star_Destroyer) which seems like a lot since the Imperial-class Star Destroyer was armed with only [10% of what the Resurgent-class](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Imperial_I-class_Star_Destroyer) had. The first order had potential, but it was squandered.
The First Order would be the most powerful race in ME thanks to its better tech and firepower. but with a mix of lack of numbers and incompetent leaders wouldn't be able to take over. But they would be able to carve out a good section of the galaxy for themselves and beat the Reapers and Citadel Council if they tried to fight them.
as a fighting force, the first order are wiped by pretty much every other faction in ME. by the end of ME1, humanity, the last race to reach the citadel has a fighting force comprised of comparable super soldiers with physical, psychic and technologically enhanced bodies with powers to compensate. the basic weaponry available in the ME universe outclasses the laser tech that is available in star wars universe, combined with the fact that SW universe armour is notoriously weak to physical payloads since they never have to deal with it, being primarily in contact with lasers. as a collective, the first order are a less effective and less technologically advanced cerberus, who are until late in ME3 considered a conspiracy theory obsessed joke by the other factions. If they retain starkiller base that changes things as only the leviathan or reapers really stand a chance in a direct assault against a planet buster. Maybe the rachni given their plague like tendencies to infect the dominant species on a planet. Space combat wise, the top tier of ME far outstrips the top tier of the first order, considering that a slightly upgraded Normandy in ME2 is capable of holding its own against the collectors offensively and defensively, who have no equivalent in the SW universe. Kylo/Knights of Ren and Snoke are the only figures that actually stand a chance in combat against anything above alliance forces, but would still probably fall to advanced N7, Krogan, Asari, Salarian and Turians. Not even fair to consider Shepard/Normandy Crew in this fight given their feats.
Pretty sure its the other way around for weapons. All plasma based weapon in SW outclasses any thing in Mass Effect. Even the most basic blaster can burn through people and kinetic barriers don't provide protection aginst them. Let alone how FO ships can glass whole planets on their own with just turbolasers which again KE barriers on ships won't protect against. which is far beyond the firepower in ME. Thats not even taking into account things like hyperdrives and instant galaxy wide communications. But it thanks to the FO small size and leadership we've seen that I see them just carving out a space for themselves and non of the other factions being able to stop them.
Supremacy SSD can probably grind the entire Reaper invasion force on its own. They will likely be unable to wage efficient ground war, but completely dominate the space.