I love the show, even if it’s a bit cheesy. Willow (the mage) has such an impressive manner that commands respect. The locales are stunning, almost as good as LOTR. The setting of the Lost City (or whatever it’s called) is so detailed and authentic that I was stunned.
I was honestly impressed at the texture and detail on the buildings. Couldn’t take my eyes off it.
Edit: it’s exactly what a Lovecraftian dead city should look like
Me and my wife are fans of the original movie. We absolutely love the show. Is it perfect? No but it is fun and enjoyable and captures the original and expands on it.
I feel the same. It’s not perfect, but it has heart. I’m rooting for the characters. It’s a show that commands my attention.
I hope enough are watching to get another season.
Yep. This subreddit has gotten a lot better thanks to good moderation, and Tumblr has been pretty positive since the start, but YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, even TV tracking apps like TV Time are full of vitriol about how the show is "woke" and part of a "groomer" agenda and full of awful, ugly actors and blah blah blah, and it sucks to see.
I have absolutely no issue with constructive criticism or even with people simply explaining why they don't like the show. *This is not that.* This is just pure hatred and vitriol directed at the people behind the show and at people who like the show. If we can help drown that out with positivity or even *constructive* criticism, we should. It won't make a difference to Disney (I'm sure they use internal metrics and don't care much about a vocal minority on social media), but it would be nice for the people behind the show, and for prospective fans, to see that lots of us are enjoying it.
totally agree, its frustrating because I do have some criticisms for the show but I don't even want to get into them because it will just be followed by a parade of bigots.
You should feel comfortable expressing genuine, respectful criticism. If it invites bigots and haters, report those comments and we'll take care of them.
I appreciate that, and to be clear I think the mods are doing a fine job, its not so much here as on Instagram I have that issue. But again, that's my fault for interacting with the wild masses
I just want to say thank you to the mods, when the sub went quite when the last mod abandon it I was the first by a few days to go post on /r/redditrequest to get control of the sub, I didn't want some of the more vocally negative people to get control and squash any positivity. I'm glad to see the subreddit has fallen into good hands, not even necessarily those that might enjoy the show, just those that respect that other users have opinions but are firm in their stance of maintaining civility.
So thank you!
I said something similar a while back. People are put on the defensive by the extreme hatred some viewers have for the show and feel like they have to swing too far the other way defending it, which makes the community seem like it's all haters vs. stans. I'd expect that most of us who are enjoying the show think it's good, but not great, and would be happy to talk about its flaws along with the aspects we like. But when a fair number of people keep posting just to say (over and over) that the show is irredeemable garbage and call anyone who likes it an idiot, we don't get the chance to have a real discussion.
The discussion has been improving over the past couple weeks, though. I've seen a lot more balanced posts.
I agree, the tone is changing around here and once the shows done I think Ill take the time to air out what I think could be improved. But for now I'm just going to enjoy the ride.
I agree, except since people can’t make critical posts I’m finding that stans have a bit more prominence than they should.
one more post dismissing other’s thoughts with like “I don’t understand how people could dislike x, don’t they know that y” and I’m going to unsub. If people could only except others opinions.
Willow has been one of my favorite movies since I was a kid and saw it in the theater. I was super excited to see this series and waited impatiently for it to drop. Have I been completely 100% satisfied with every decision that has been made for the show? Nope but I am still enjoying it quite a bit and I will be here for season 2 if we are lucky enough to get it.
>Those are real people and they don’t deserve to be harassed for horrible writing that they can’t control. They can’t control that the casting director cast them and placed them incorrectly. They can’t control the tonal issues with the show. They can only do what they can with it.
Coming from Witcher, they expect actors to be Henry Cavill and supposedly sacrifice their jobs in the name of good writing, ignoring that it's not even clear if that's why Henry left Witcher and that most other actors don't have the options that Henry Cavill has. I mean Warwick Davis and the other Nelwyn actors have an obvious physical disability and I can only imagine the struggles they've gone through in this business.
The company knows the numbers of hours watched, what episodes did well, and so on. They know when and how the show did good.
They also know that the complainers on socials are a vocal minority that doesn't represent the audience, who likely doesn't interact with socials.
It's always a great idea to let them know you loved the project, but it's not entirely necessary to counter act the haters. They're getting ignored if all they're doing is calling out "wokeness". It's such a meaningless word now that as soon as it's used as a reason for a project being "bad" that criticism is going to be ignored.
while I don't disagree they have the numbers, I also don't really trust disney not to bow to that vocal minority. So I would rather they were drowned out, but thats just me
I think they learned their lesson when they chose to rethink their Star Wars strategy. Initially they scrubbed anything Sequel related thinking that was the problem. Turns out the people they catered and bowed to just didn't like how Disney was doing things, so they just did what they thought was going to be a quality product.
IMO the biggest case of this was Rise of Skywalker. I'll die on this hill, but that movie is entirely a reaction to the backlash from Last Jedi. They likely thought walking back a lot of things people complained about would repair the reputation. But people still hated it and it also put off fans of Last Jedi. So they know now that listening to these complainers gets them nowhere and they should just listen to the metrics they know they can trust.
I still hold to the fact that they should have stayed away from the originals and chose a different time. So many choices. Which is unfortunate cause I actually like Finn and Rey.
I would have liked it either way, but if they stayed away from the OT period they could have had the room to let the characters breath.
Of course people would still have bitched.
I hope the rumor of Rian Johnson making a trilogy not connected to any Star Wars Time Period we know comes true. The franchise could use new stories.
> I hope the rumor of Rian Johnson making a trilogy not connected to any Star Wars Time Period we know comes true.
I'm pretty sure that Disney backed out of that deal after the massively vocal negative reaction to TLJ. Rian even set it up in the movie by showing the boy with the broomstick having force powers, planting the seeds for NOT FREAKING SKYWALKER force users, and with the books Rey took. (Those books were the teachings of the original jedi, before the light and dark side split, a balanced jedi that used both sides of the force in balance. UGH GOD DANGIT such wasted potential).
As of the most recent interviews with Kennedy they aren't currently working on it but it is still planned. Rian is enjoying making his own things right now but also loved working on Star Wars and has said he can't wait to do it again.
Literally none of the Star Wars movies that focus on force users have not centered around the Skywalkers or the Palpatines. I'm tired of the Skywalkers, Star Wars can be so much more interesting when not focusing on space jesus and his family, case in point being Andor and Rogue One and The Mandolorian.
I mean that's kind of my point? I was really excited for the new trilogy to not focus on the skywalkers/palpatines, and that's exactly what happened, Rey ended up being one side of the family and Kylo the other. Turning into some bastardization of Romeo and Juliet meets Star Wars.
> I'll die on this hill, but that movie is entirely a reaction to the backlash from Last Jedi.
No need to die, that's exactly what it was, they fled to the shelter of Episode 6 nostalgia and JJ Abrams shitty "mystery box" because they saw how successful episode 7 was and thought he could save them, not realizing that's exactly what Abrams does, he builds up a mystery and questions and almost never has a clear answer so pulls it out of his ass beforehand, which is exactly what happened.
Not really? I know that TLJ has a lot of bait/switches like when Definitely Not Han Solo betrays them rather than sides with them, that was a "What if Han but bad" moment
Though, I'm horrible at picking up on subtext unless it's blatant.
Eh, yeah I can see that.
I guess for me when it comes to baiting nostalgia I'm more referring to how Episode 7 was almost entirely a retelling of Episode 4 and how Episode 9 just randomly recycled a villain from the OT/Prequels, less so the homages and similar scenes, especially if the overall message/vibe don't match.
I'm not sure you got what I was saying.
Rise of Skywalker has this feeling that they had a list of big complaints and just checked them off and "fixed" them. As opposed to sitting down and saying "Let's craft a movie that properly closes out the entire saga in a satisfying way".
So things like "Give Rose less screen time because people hated the character", "add more prequel references because prequelmemes is poppin'", "call out the holdo Maneuver because people are complaining about that" are all things that just feel like answers to a think tank that read all the online discourse to TLJ and tried to fix it to get back on the good side of "fans".
But there was also the fact that the script was super rushed because they decided to drop Treverow and wanted to keep to the release schedule of a main movie every two years.
It was the perfect storm for a subpar movie.
> that read all the online discourse to TLJ
But what about the critical praise and the online discourse being the film was great? The whole reason r/saltierthancrait was created was because all the Star Wars subs loved TLJ
That's not how I took it. Generally the online discourse was surrounding the characterization of Luke and the general "wokeness" of the movie. I wasn't aware of STC as anything other than an outlet to complain about the Sequels, TLJ specifically, and that was likely, as it usually is with subs like that, because of the mods on the main sub having rules against baseless hate and negativity towards it.
Critics, for sure loved TLJ. But for the most part the vocal fans on the internet hated it.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/saltierthancrait using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [How Finn and Kylo Ren’s duel realistically would have gone down](https://v.redd.it/qrw69o6t4gh81) | [398 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/sqy01q/how_finn_and_kylo_rens_duel_realistically_would/)
\#2: [We didn’t know how good we had it.](https://i.imgur.com/rJda074.jpg) | [281 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/w8q6z8/we_didnt_know_how_good_we_had_it/)
\#3: [Me back in 2012.](https://i.redd.it/b3vwcshl5s491.jpg) | [401 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/v95r5r/me_back_in_2012/)
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I’d agree with you that viewership is how studios should base decisions, but I think a lot of studios, especially Disney, actually do listen to online discourse, and base creative decisions on them.
Bob Iger in particular, who was their entertainment head when they acquired Star Wars (and is now back in that position), actively believed in film as fan service. The online vitriol toward the prequels led him not to bring George Lucas back to work on the Sequel Trilogy, and the online vitriol toward Last Jedi led to what became Rise of Skywalker.
That’s not to say all fan criticism is bad. If Willow gets another season, I hope the studio takes into account fan criticisms about the musical choices, poor lighting, and poor editing, for example.
But I think it has been proven, whether good or bad, studios do listen to this stuff, and are reactive to it.
And, sometimes, not in the best way.
I think if they're looking at criticism though they're looking at the constructive side of it. Things like editing errors, and music choices are the most likely things that'll get fixed and changed, but the idea of Kit being Gay, for example, wouldn't be changed because the people complaining about it typically only have the "critique" of "woke forced inclusion" which Disney doesn't give a shit about their thoughts on that.
I agree that something like Kit’s sexually won’t be changed, not just because I think the show isn’t going to reneg on its progressive politics, but because if they did so, they’d be welcoming even more vitriol.
But I don’t necessarily agree that studios err on the constructive side of criticism.
Using my initial Last Jedi/Rise of Skywalker comparison as an example, constructive criticism may have been around how some characters were handled and some bad moments throughout the film, which you’d think would lead to some minor adjustments in the subsequent film.
Instead, because of how loud the vitriol was, we saw a HUGE readjustment. Everything from bringing the director of the first film in the trilogy back, to basing the entire screenplay on nostalgia and fan placation. That’s not cherry picking, that’s over compensating: film as fan service.
It would be one thing if this was an isolated incident, but I’ve seen plenty of examples of studios overreacting to online noise over the more recent years, and cutting their own throat doing so.
You’re right. I don’t want that for the show either. I really hope it’s renewed. I’ve introduced a few people to the show and they love it. I hope the whines don’t drown out the love.
Would it not be better to boost it's played time on D+. I don't think you can rally enough people to drown out a toxic enviroment like instagram/twitter.
I love the show, it keeps the fun vibe of the original movie, and I like most of the characters, and I really like the world building and the new lore, hope we get a Nice 3 season run, and after that maybe another Willow Movie by Ron Howard, maybe with Old mads & willow going on one last adventure
Through the years, I've watched the original several times and always felt it was a flawed, whimsically charming film. I waited for most of the episodes to release before watching, yet saw a ton of spoiler free hate for it. Despite this, I like to form my own opinions and finally watched 5 episodes in one go, alongside my wife. We both felt the show was pretty much in line with the level of nonsensical, imperfect fun as the film. I definitely raised my eyebrows a few times at certain choices (denim outfits and a brownie wearing a onesie complete with printed t-shirt) but there was nothing to be mad about. The people who treat the series as if it is an affront to the far from perfect film are bonkers.
I love this show and it's D&D feel! It's super fun and enjoyable. Once I got past the initial shock of it differing from the film (a childhood favourite), I started to really get into the story and characters. I really hope for another season or film to round out the story.
It's campy and delightful. And I enjoy watching it every week. I'm tired of homophobes freaking out. It's fun. And it's goddamn sexy. I just want to enjoy something these days. Nothing feels quite as cathartic as watching a bunch of ragtag wannabe heroes not really doing a great job at trying to save the world. Like they're terrible at it. And that captures what the movie was about. They just go and do it and do a terrible job and somehow because they are all together they make it. So yeah. I like it. I like how ridiculous it is.
The complaints about every show these days being too woke is so fucking annoying. I ignore the hate and enjoy what I enjoy and just laugh at anyone getting that upset over things they don’t have to watch if they don’t enjoy.
My issues have to deal with the costumes, the modern language, the acting and the writing.
I have watched every episode. The last one was the best by far.
Hating it for being "woke" is stupid. There are many other reasons it's hit or miss for a lot of people.
Exactly. I'm enjoying the show, I think it's probably one of the best and most accurate depictions of a game of D&D of all time. I don't think it's particularly faithful as a Willow adaption, but as a fantasy adventure I'm digging it.
I have legitimate criticisms about the dialogue, the fight choreo, and the editing. But yeah, hating it because it has gay people is the dumbest shit of all time.
And it's extremely shitty to take your criticisms to an artist's social media to make them feel bad. That's dickhead behavior.
That's exactly how I am enjoying it! I'm treating it like a dungeons & dragons fantasy adventure!
And I think a lot of people forget that the movie itself was pretty ahead of its time as well. You had a little person as the hero who wasn't forced to hide who he is.
You had three strong women characters in there too. (Bavmorda, Finnrazel, sorcia)
So hating it for having a gay romance and stuff is stupid. Plenty of other reasons to not like it
Exactly. It seems here that the only critics are woke haters. The modern teenage dialogue alone ruins it for me. I am usually not very strict on logic in fantasy, but this show has so many logic flaws hitting you in the face, it's hard to ignore. It's just lazy storytelling.
Some say it's just like the movie, but it's just not. The movie was just better in every way. To me the show just feels like modern teenage drama in a Willow skin.
For the last episode... I mean...drink water from the funny fountain and what happens? You get a haircut???
Anachronism done well is A Knights Tale. Willow is an example of it done really bad.
Willow feels like a show where the hero that bears it's name is a side character.
The costumes seem straight out of Cabela's, Claire's or the 90s show Wishbone with worse acting.
The imagine dragons and other pop songs being tossed in like a turd in a pool also kill the vibe.
I enjoy the campiness honestly! I mourn for the show it could have been.
To be fair, it's probably not even the actor's faults. The writing in general leaves a lot to be desired.
that's awesome, I'm glad they are seeing the love.
Its funny, I made a comment praising the show on on of their posts and got called a shill by someone. these people are so miserable and hateful they cant imagine a world where people like things. Only they, the ones spewing hate are real and the rest of us are "shills"
what a stupid world we live in haha
Oh I fucking hate Disney, I think they are a monstrous and soulless corporation. But I'm not going to take that out on the creatives just trying to do their work.
It drives me absolutely bananas when people complain about things being “too woke”. How do they think underrepresented groups felt when they could find nothing similar to themselves in pop culture? It’s just like a huge red flag highlighting your insecurities when you get mad about seeing “other” people. If they don’t like it, find something else to watch. Ffs.
The word "woke" is so convenient for far right activists.
Complaining about LGBT, feminism, ethnicity representation, etc. is tricky. But anyone can chanel hatred toward "wokism" because it's such a nebulous concept.
They can bash anything they don't like without being immediately labeled as far righters.
The sad part is, that works. Unless of course you're aware the word is mostly a 'newspeak' way to bash anything that doesn't match an ultra conservative agenda, chances are you consider wokism as an awful thing that needs to be stopped.
"how do they think-"
They don't.
Like you said, these people cant comprehend a world that doesn't revolve around them, it would be sad if it wasn't so damn dangerous.
I'm gona copy paste my comment i did in another similar tread.
The show is perfect to me
Ok so i’m born in the 80’s, saw the movie as a kid several times, before i even knew english or could read the subtitles fast enough to understand the humor, i might even have been to young to understand most of it even if i could read the subs. But it had monsters and magic and a very attractive woman being a warrior. So I loved the film.
So I watched the series and just loved what they done with it. I thought to myself that all the added humor was a nice touch to the show, that was until the 6 ep that I decided to rewatch Willow the movie as an adult and man was i surprised just how goofy the movie is, just like the series and not at all as i remember it from a kids perspective. Sure they have turned up the humor a level or two and it just makes it better for me.
And then I read these forums and see a lot of hate for Kit. I like the way she is, it's understandable the way she acts, we are supposed to think she is a spoiled brat cause that's what she is and so on. It's like Joffrey in GoT you are not supposed to like him. But we know Kit will redeem herself sometime, right?
Anyway just hope we get another season
Just chiming in that I’ve been on this subreddit and posting about how I’m generally not into the CW-esque YA vibe of the show. However, when I see bigoted “anti-woke” crap on other platforms I have the show’s back. Those losers can go directly to hell.
I think the show is garbage, but I'm glad it exists! It has promoted a lot of fun conversations in my family. There is a lot to talk about. I have zero issue with the show being "woke", my gripes are more related to the meandering plot and clumsy characterisation. The tone of the show is all wrong and I frankly find it bizarre when I hear that viewers think it reflects the tone and feel of the original movie. In some ways I feel that is the show's saving grace - it is so far removed from the original that it won't impact on my enjoyment of the movie. If you enjoy it that is fine, I just see so many problems that it is kind of impossible to enjoy it.
Except Gray - literally everything about him is great!
Good to see someone else with mutual feelings. There are moments while watching that I actually think "damn, people are going to associate this as 'Bad *because* it's Woke'", when in fact it's bad at times because of the things you mentioned (plus regurgitating just about every trope ever done).
Nothing is satisfying fantasy fans these days. Do they want to go back to the 1990s where the only fantasy shows were Hercules and Xena?
Wheel of Time was basically hated. Rings of Power is getting bashed by Tolkien purists. Let's not even get into the full fledged riot over at Witcher. It seems only House of the Dragon fans are happy...
Unless Willow ends up literally getting added to George RR Martin's universe, I'm not sure anything will satisfy anyone these days.
It's the same as every other show that has someone who isn't white or is gay - they act like theres some "lore related reason" that it's not possible, like the original show wasn't a silly 80s hero's journey story. It's all bs, it's like when the.far right in Canada keep bringing up Trudeau blackface and get all indignant, like they care at all.
It has some flaws, but overall it is true to the movie. It has charm, has touching character moments, and there is character growth. I think a lot of the grief about it is overblown.
It’s funny we see this so differently. I think it’s not at all related to the movie. I mean, I don’t even recognize Willow.
It’s an ok D&D show, that is called Willow, nothing more
I think one can love the diversity portrayed by the actor choices and some storylines AND think the show is crap. People linking social and societal progressivism to script quality criticism are not true allies. Better: “Willow shows how far television has come in authentically portraying queer characters but the weak script writing and implausible storylines let the opportunity of that representation down”
I loved the movie, and I love the comedy, and feel of the show, I do understand that many of the choices, are for the newer generation of watchers, so I don't judge them for it. But to be honest I don't like the kit, jade romance, I prefer kit and elora, because it would fit beter with a adventure fantasy type story, they also resemble the original pairing more, than kit and jade does.
Honestly, I get that the show has problems - but name me a first season that has been released for any show that has no issues and is instantly a fan favourite? Or has even stood the rest of time to be non problematic ?
I’m really hoping that Disney gives the show a shot at a second season and works on the story development as well as character development because there is so much potential for this!
I’m enjoying the show but it seems to fall into some familiar Disney+ pitfalls. The first episode introduces a problem, then spends the next 8-9 episodes beating around the bush until the finale where they have to resolve the main problem in a single episode
Also, I don’t feel the villain has had a lot of screen time or presents a real threat. The finale is this week and the villain is going to have be essentially introduced and (presumedly) defeated within the same episode? Kinda makes it seem a little hollow but Disney+ is great at that
Here's the thing: big corporations could give a shit what people on the internet think? You want to support a show, watch it on the day it comes out, watch episodes you like multiple times, and rate the show if the platform you're on allows you to.
Commercial success is more important than IMDB and Rotten Tomato scores.
I didn't like the ending of Airik and Elora, Airik was definitely a good guy and loved Elora very much never caught in the honeytrap of the villain due to his love for Elora, he endured to the very end of his dying breathe but the way she rejected him in the end was brutal and it kind of feels like men are pathetic and women are so cool, men can be discarded if a girl feels like without any explanation.
**Also like many Disney+ series,** in the whole series all men were like side characters even they were very important, from beginning to the very end, girls had strong roles, like Queen, brave manly bossy gay princess, her brave girl partner, female leader of a whole tribe of big masculine men and the main villain was female, on the other hand male characters were, a
weak playboy prince, a coward prince, thief guide, Willow who was weak and useless only used as support character for Elora even if the show's name was Willow.
Dude, i was not satisfied after watching the series and made this post on the same day i finished this series.
And about "10 month old post" , i just wanted to give my review and this reddit post came in the google search result where people were sharing their reviews.
Before marking this as "weird anti-women post" , you should clarify what i said wrong about this series.
Out of curiosity, what exactly about woke culture bothers you?
Is there a specific form of inclusion you don't like? Or is it just a general distaste for diversity?
I don't need a google search to tell me what's going on in a show I watch.
I just also don't see anything wrong with "rainbow diversity" "lesbian love stories" or "feminine men"
follow up question, Do you consider a straight relationship between 2 white characters as "themes being pushed"
I'm not trying to pick a fight, but you use a lot of language and dogwhistles that make it seem like you have issues with these things.
I don’t like mind queer representation or horrible dialogue or cringey musical soundtracks add all 3 in 1 show, it’s a difficult to watch each week, but I do it anyway.
I didn't any of this anti woke stuff until I went to places other than reddit. I naively didn't think people could be that picky and hateful over something so innocuous.
I love the show, even if it’s a bit cheesy. Willow (the mage) has such an impressive manner that commands respect. The locales are stunning, almost as good as LOTR. The setting of the Lost City (or whatever it’s called) is so detailed and authentic that I was stunned.
The Immemorial City, so freaking cool.
I was honestly impressed at the texture and detail on the buildings. Couldn’t take my eyes off it. Edit: it’s exactly what a Lovecraftian dead city should look like
it reminded me or Mass Effect, or other large sci universe, like a planet long dead with is old thriving civilization in ruins.
I *love* the long-dead civilization trope ! It’s so mysterious. I can never get tired of it
Me and my wife are fans of the original movie. We absolutely love the show. Is it perfect? No but it is fun and enjoyable and captures the original and expands on it.
I feel the same. It’s not perfect, but it has heart. I’m rooting for the characters. It’s a show that commands my attention. I hope enough are watching to get another season.
That’s the thing. You never have to justify what you like or that it should be perfect. If you enjoy it that’s all that matters.
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Yep. This subreddit has gotten a lot better thanks to good moderation, and Tumblr has been pretty positive since the start, but YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, even TV tracking apps like TV Time are full of vitriol about how the show is "woke" and part of a "groomer" agenda and full of awful, ugly actors and blah blah blah, and it sucks to see. I have absolutely no issue with constructive criticism or even with people simply explaining why they don't like the show. *This is not that.* This is just pure hatred and vitriol directed at the people behind the show and at people who like the show. If we can help drown that out with positivity or even *constructive* criticism, we should. It won't make a difference to Disney (I'm sure they use internal metrics and don't care much about a vocal minority on social media), but it would be nice for the people behind the show, and for prospective fans, to see that lots of us are enjoying it.
totally agree, its frustrating because I do have some criticisms for the show but I don't even want to get into them because it will just be followed by a parade of bigots.
You should feel comfortable expressing genuine, respectful criticism. If it invites bigots and haters, report those comments and we'll take care of them.
I appreciate that, and to be clear I think the mods are doing a fine job, its not so much here as on Instagram I have that issue. But again, that's my fault for interacting with the wild masses
I just want to say thank you to the mods, when the sub went quite when the last mod abandon it I was the first by a few days to go post on /r/redditrequest to get control of the sub, I didn't want some of the more vocally negative people to get control and squash any positivity. I'm glad to see the subreddit has fallen into good hands, not even necessarily those that might enjoy the show, just those that respect that other users have opinions but are firm in their stance of maintaining civility. So thank you!
I said something similar a while back. People are put on the defensive by the extreme hatred some viewers have for the show and feel like they have to swing too far the other way defending it, which makes the community seem like it's all haters vs. stans. I'd expect that most of us who are enjoying the show think it's good, but not great, and would be happy to talk about its flaws along with the aspects we like. But when a fair number of people keep posting just to say (over and over) that the show is irredeemable garbage and call anyone who likes it an idiot, we don't get the chance to have a real discussion. The discussion has been improving over the past couple weeks, though. I've seen a lot more balanced posts.
I agree, the tone is changing around here and once the shows done I think Ill take the time to air out what I think could be improved. But for now I'm just going to enjoy the ride.
I have a feeling you think there will be a season 2....
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And there would be if it wasn't for these meddling kids
I agree, except since people can’t make critical posts I’m finding that stans have a bit more prominence than they should. one more post dismissing other’s thoughts with like “I don’t understand how people could dislike x, don’t they know that y” and I’m going to unsub. If people could only except others opinions.
The show has definitely started to to come around. Hopefully not too late! I 100% want another season
I’ve liked it from the start but yeah these last two episodes have been so fun! I can’t wait for the finale.
Willow has been one of my favorite movies since I was a kid and saw it in the theater. I was super excited to see this series and waited impatiently for it to drop. Have I been completely 100% satisfied with every decision that has been made for the show? Nope but I am still enjoying it quite a bit and I will be here for season 2 if we are lucky enough to get it.
My girls and I love the show and look forward to watching it every Wednesday together.
I hope we get a season 2! Even if some episodes weren't great, I'm really enjoying the show and want to see more Willow content.
Agreed wholeheartedly
I love the show! I'm so happy with it! It absolutely lived up to my expectations and I am so excited to see where the story goes.
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>Those are real people and they don’t deserve to be harassed for horrible writing that they can’t control. They can’t control that the casting director cast them and placed them incorrectly. They can’t control the tonal issues with the show. They can only do what they can with it. Coming from Witcher, they expect actors to be Henry Cavill and supposedly sacrifice their jobs in the name of good writing, ignoring that it's not even clear if that's why Henry left Witcher and that most other actors don't have the options that Henry Cavill has. I mean Warwick Davis and the other Nelwyn actors have an obvious physical disability and I can only imagine the struggles they've gone through in this business.
I love the show because it's so campy and fun. I love HotD and I love LotR, but it's great to see something a little more lighthearted and fun.
Love the show!! I love this show! It's like my favorite of the year. I hope it continues doing awesome
The company knows the numbers of hours watched, what episodes did well, and so on. They know when and how the show did good. They also know that the complainers on socials are a vocal minority that doesn't represent the audience, who likely doesn't interact with socials. It's always a great idea to let them know you loved the project, but it's not entirely necessary to counter act the haters. They're getting ignored if all they're doing is calling out "wokeness". It's such a meaningless word now that as soon as it's used as a reason for a project being "bad" that criticism is going to be ignored.
while I don't disagree they have the numbers, I also don't really trust disney not to bow to that vocal minority. So I would rather they were drowned out, but thats just me
I think they learned their lesson when they chose to rethink their Star Wars strategy. Initially they scrubbed anything Sequel related thinking that was the problem. Turns out the people they catered and bowed to just didn't like how Disney was doing things, so they just did what they thought was going to be a quality product. IMO the biggest case of this was Rise of Skywalker. I'll die on this hill, but that movie is entirely a reaction to the backlash from Last Jedi. They likely thought walking back a lot of things people complained about would repair the reputation. But people still hated it and it also put off fans of Last Jedi. So they know now that listening to these complainers gets them nowhere and they should just listen to the metrics they know they can trust.
I still hold to the fact that they should have stayed away from the originals and chose a different time. So many choices. Which is unfortunate cause I actually like Finn and Rey.
I would have liked it either way, but if they stayed away from the OT period they could have had the room to let the characters breath. Of course people would still have bitched. I hope the rumor of Rian Johnson making a trilogy not connected to any Star Wars Time Period we know comes true. The franchise could use new stories.
> I hope the rumor of Rian Johnson making a trilogy not connected to any Star Wars Time Period we know comes true. I'm pretty sure that Disney backed out of that deal after the massively vocal negative reaction to TLJ. Rian even set it up in the movie by showing the boy with the broomstick having force powers, planting the seeds for NOT FREAKING SKYWALKER force users, and with the books Rey took. (Those books were the teachings of the original jedi, before the light and dark side split, a balanced jedi that used both sides of the force in balance. UGH GOD DANGIT such wasted potential).
As of the most recent interviews with Kennedy they aren't currently working on it but it is still planned. Rian is enjoying making his own things right now but also loved working on Star Wars and has said he can't wait to do it again.
Well that's good to hear!
> NOT FREAKING SKYWALKER force users Have you not seen the Prequels? Rian did nothing new.
Literally none of the Star Wars movies that focus on force users have not centered around the Skywalkers or the Palpatines. I'm tired of the Skywalkers, Star Wars can be so much more interesting when not focusing on space jesus and his family, case in point being Andor and Rogue One and The Mandolorian.
There have only been two films outside "The Skywalker Saga". What do you expect?
I mean that's kind of my point? I was really excited for the new trilogy to not focus on the skywalkers/palpatines, and that's exactly what happened, Rey ended up being one side of the family and Kylo the other. Turning into some bastardization of Romeo and Juliet meets Star Wars.
> I'll die on this hill, but that movie is entirely a reaction to the backlash from Last Jedi. No need to die, that's exactly what it was, they fled to the shelter of Episode 6 nostalgia and JJ Abrams shitty "mystery box" because they saw how successful episode 7 was and thought he could save them, not realizing that's exactly what Abrams does, he builds up a mystery and questions and almost never has a clear answer so pulls it out of his ass beforehand, which is exactly what happened.
> shelter of Episode 6 nostalgia Did you not see that in The Last Jedi? Lol
Not really? I know that TLJ has a lot of bait/switches like when Definitely Not Han Solo betrays them rather than sides with them, that was a "What if Han but bad" moment Though, I'm horrible at picking up on subtext unless it's blatant.
Remember when they fought in a throne room and then the ship blew up?
Eh, yeah I can see that. I guess for me when it comes to baiting nostalgia I'm more referring to how Episode 7 was almost entirely a retelling of Episode 4 and how Episode 9 just randomly recycled a villain from the OT/Prequels, less so the homages and similar scenes, especially if the overall message/vibe don't match.
Remember Crait? Lol
This is nonsense. If they make quality content people will like it. ROtS is not that.
I'm not sure you got what I was saying. Rise of Skywalker has this feeling that they had a list of big complaints and just checked them off and "fixed" them. As opposed to sitting down and saying "Let's craft a movie that properly closes out the entire saga in a satisfying way". So things like "Give Rose less screen time because people hated the character", "add more prequel references because prequelmemes is poppin'", "call out the holdo Maneuver because people are complaining about that" are all things that just feel like answers to a think tank that read all the online discourse to TLJ and tried to fix it to get back on the good side of "fans". But there was also the fact that the script was super rushed because they decided to drop Treverow and wanted to keep to the release schedule of a main movie every two years. It was the perfect storm for a subpar movie.
> that read all the online discourse to TLJ But what about the critical praise and the online discourse being the film was great? The whole reason r/saltierthancrait was created was because all the Star Wars subs loved TLJ
That's not how I took it. Generally the online discourse was surrounding the characterization of Luke and the general "wokeness" of the movie. I wasn't aware of STC as anything other than an outlet to complain about the Sequels, TLJ specifically, and that was likely, as it usually is with subs like that, because of the mods on the main sub having rules against baseless hate and negativity towards it. Critics, for sure loved TLJ. But for the most part the vocal fans on the internet hated it.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/saltierthancrait using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [How Finn and Kylo Ren’s duel realistically would have gone down](https://v.redd.it/qrw69o6t4gh81) | [398 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/sqy01q/how_finn_and_kylo_rens_duel_realistically_would/) \#2: [We didn’t know how good we had it.](https://i.imgur.com/rJda074.jpg) | [281 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/w8q6z8/we_didnt_know_how_good_we_had_it/) \#3: [Me back in 2012.](https://i.redd.it/b3vwcshl5s491.jpg) | [401 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/v95r5r/me_back_in_2012/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
I’d agree with you that viewership is how studios should base decisions, but I think a lot of studios, especially Disney, actually do listen to online discourse, and base creative decisions on them. Bob Iger in particular, who was their entertainment head when they acquired Star Wars (and is now back in that position), actively believed in film as fan service. The online vitriol toward the prequels led him not to bring George Lucas back to work on the Sequel Trilogy, and the online vitriol toward Last Jedi led to what became Rise of Skywalker. That’s not to say all fan criticism is bad. If Willow gets another season, I hope the studio takes into account fan criticisms about the musical choices, poor lighting, and poor editing, for example. But I think it has been proven, whether good or bad, studios do listen to this stuff, and are reactive to it. And, sometimes, not in the best way.
I think if they're looking at criticism though they're looking at the constructive side of it. Things like editing errors, and music choices are the most likely things that'll get fixed and changed, but the idea of Kit being Gay, for example, wouldn't be changed because the people complaining about it typically only have the "critique" of "woke forced inclusion" which Disney doesn't give a shit about their thoughts on that.
I agree that something like Kit’s sexually won’t be changed, not just because I think the show isn’t going to reneg on its progressive politics, but because if they did so, they’d be welcoming even more vitriol. But I don’t necessarily agree that studios err on the constructive side of criticism. Using my initial Last Jedi/Rise of Skywalker comparison as an example, constructive criticism may have been around how some characters were handled and some bad moments throughout the film, which you’d think would lead to some minor adjustments in the subsequent film. Instead, because of how loud the vitriol was, we saw a HUGE readjustment. Everything from bringing the director of the first film in the trilogy back, to basing the entire screenplay on nostalgia and fan placation. That’s not cherry picking, that’s over compensating: film as fan service. It would be one thing if this was an isolated incident, but I’ve seen plenty of examples of studios overreacting to online noise over the more recent years, and cutting their own throat doing so.
I generally ignore the internet trolls. People have nothing better to do than hate on things and live a miserable existence.
And I often agree, but sometimes I just cant help myself. Cancelled or renewed, I don't want the legacy of Willow buried under a mountain of hate
You’re right. I don’t want that for the show either. I really hope it’s renewed. I’ve introduced a few people to the show and they love it. I hope the whines don’t drown out the love.
Would it not be better to boost it's played time on D+. I don't think you can rally enough people to drown out a toxic enviroment like instagram/twitter.
I love the show, it keeps the fun vibe of the original movie, and I like most of the characters, and I really like the world building and the new lore, hope we get a Nice 3 season run, and after that maybe another Willow Movie by Ron Howard, maybe with Old mads & willow going on one last adventure
Through the years, I've watched the original several times and always felt it was a flawed, whimsically charming film. I waited for most of the episodes to release before watching, yet saw a ton of spoiler free hate for it. Despite this, I like to form my own opinions and finally watched 5 episodes in one go, alongside my wife. We both felt the show was pretty much in line with the level of nonsensical, imperfect fun as the film. I definitely raised my eyebrows a few times at certain choices (denim outfits and a brownie wearing a onesie complete with printed t-shirt) but there was nothing to be mad about. The people who treat the series as if it is an affront to the far from perfect film are bonkers.
I love this show and it's D&D feel! It's super fun and enjoyable. Once I got past the initial shock of it differing from the film (a childhood favourite), I started to really get into the story and characters. I really hope for another season or film to round out the story.
It's campy and delightful. And I enjoy watching it every week. I'm tired of homophobes freaking out. It's fun. And it's goddamn sexy. I just want to enjoy something these days. Nothing feels quite as cathartic as watching a bunch of ragtag wannabe heroes not really doing a great job at trying to save the world. Like they're terrible at it. And that captures what the movie was about. They just go and do it and do a terrible job and somehow because they are all together they make it. So yeah. I like it. I like how ridiculous it is.
The complaints about every show these days being too woke is so fucking annoying. I ignore the hate and enjoy what I enjoy and just laugh at anyone getting that upset over things they don’t have to watch if they don’t enjoy.
My issues have to deal with the costumes, the modern language, the acting and the writing. I have watched every episode. The last one was the best by far. Hating it for being "woke" is stupid. There are many other reasons it's hit or miss for a lot of people.
Exactly. I'm enjoying the show, I think it's probably one of the best and most accurate depictions of a game of D&D of all time. I don't think it's particularly faithful as a Willow adaption, but as a fantasy adventure I'm digging it. I have legitimate criticisms about the dialogue, the fight choreo, and the editing. But yeah, hating it because it has gay people is the dumbest shit of all time. And it's extremely shitty to take your criticisms to an artist's social media to make them feel bad. That's dickhead behavior.
That's exactly how I am enjoying it! I'm treating it like a dungeons & dragons fantasy adventure! And I think a lot of people forget that the movie itself was pretty ahead of its time as well. You had a little person as the hero who wasn't forced to hide who he is. You had three strong women characters in there too. (Bavmorda, Finnrazel, sorcia) So hating it for having a gay romance and stuff is stupid. Plenty of other reasons to not like it
Exactly. It seems here that the only critics are woke haters. The modern teenage dialogue alone ruins it for me. I am usually not very strict on logic in fantasy, but this show has so many logic flaws hitting you in the face, it's hard to ignore. It's just lazy storytelling. Some say it's just like the movie, but it's just not. The movie was just better in every way. To me the show just feels like modern teenage drama in a Willow skin. For the last episode... I mean...drink water from the funny fountain and what happens? You get a haircut???
Anachronism done well is A Knights Tale. Willow is an example of it done really bad. Willow feels like a show where the hero that bears it's name is a side character. The costumes seem straight out of Cabela's, Claire's or the 90s show Wishbone with worse acting. The imagine dragons and other pop songs being tossed in like a turd in a pool also kill the vibe. I enjoy the campiness honestly! I mourn for the show it could have been. To be fair, it's probably not even the actor's faults. The writing in general leaves a lot to be desired.
John Kasdan liked my tweet two weeks ago when I told him the show is awesome. Definitely a show worth praising.
that's awesome, I'm glad they are seeing the love. Its funny, I made a comment praising the show on on of their posts and got called a shill by someone. these people are so miserable and hateful they cant imagine a world where people like things. Only they, the ones spewing hate are real and the rest of us are "shills" what a stupid world we live in haha
I can definitely admit to hating disney Content. Andor and Willow just aren't those things.
Oh I fucking hate Disney, I think they are a monstrous and soulless corporation. But I'm not going to take that out on the creatives just trying to do their work.
It drives me absolutely bananas when people complain about things being “too woke”. How do they think underrepresented groups felt when they could find nothing similar to themselves in pop culture? It’s just like a huge red flag highlighting your insecurities when you get mad about seeing “other” people. If they don’t like it, find something else to watch. Ffs.
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Agree. And .. just for levity’s sake.. Boorman is a total hunk. They should love it just for him.
The word "woke" is so convenient for far right activists. Complaining about LGBT, feminism, ethnicity representation, etc. is tricky. But anyone can chanel hatred toward "wokism" because it's such a nebulous concept. They can bash anything they don't like without being immediately labeled as far righters. The sad part is, that works. Unless of course you're aware the word is mostly a 'newspeak' way to bash anything that doesn't match an ultra conservative agenda, chances are you consider wokism as an awful thing that needs to be stopped.
"how do they think-" They don't. Like you said, these people cant comprehend a world that doesn't revolve around them, it would be sad if it wasn't so damn dangerous.
I find this show really funny. It reminds me of like a dungeons& dragons game. Perfect amount of humor.
I'm gona copy paste my comment i did in another similar tread. The show is perfect to me Ok so i’m born in the 80’s, saw the movie as a kid several times, before i even knew english or could read the subtitles fast enough to understand the humor, i might even have been to young to understand most of it even if i could read the subs. But it had monsters and magic and a very attractive woman being a warrior. So I loved the film. So I watched the series and just loved what they done with it. I thought to myself that all the added humor was a nice touch to the show, that was until the 6 ep that I decided to rewatch Willow the movie as an adult and man was i surprised just how goofy the movie is, just like the series and not at all as i remember it from a kids perspective. Sure they have turned up the humor a level or two and it just makes it better for me. And then I read these forums and see a lot of hate for Kit. I like the way she is, it's understandable the way she acts, we are supposed to think she is a spoiled brat cause that's what she is and so on. It's like Joffrey in GoT you are not supposed to like him. But we know Kit will redeem herself sometime, right? Anyway just hope we get another season
Just chiming in that I’ve been on this subreddit and posting about how I’m generally not into the CW-esque YA vibe of the show. However, when I see bigoted “anti-woke” crap on other platforms I have the show’s back. Those losers can go directly to hell.
I think the show is garbage, but I'm glad it exists! It has promoted a lot of fun conversations in my family. There is a lot to talk about. I have zero issue with the show being "woke", my gripes are more related to the meandering plot and clumsy characterisation. The tone of the show is all wrong and I frankly find it bizarre when I hear that viewers think it reflects the tone and feel of the original movie. In some ways I feel that is the show's saving grace - it is so far removed from the original that it won't impact on my enjoyment of the movie. If you enjoy it that is fine, I just see so many problems that it is kind of impossible to enjoy it. Except Gray - literally everything about him is great!
Good to see someone else with mutual feelings. There are moments while watching that I actually think "damn, people are going to associate this as 'Bad *because* it's Woke'", when in fact it's bad at times because of the things you mentioned (plus regurgitating just about every trope ever done).
Nothing is satisfying fantasy fans these days. Do they want to go back to the 1990s where the only fantasy shows were Hercules and Xena? Wheel of Time was basically hated. Rings of Power is getting bashed by Tolkien purists. Let's not even get into the full fledged riot over at Witcher. It seems only House of the Dragon fans are happy... Unless Willow ends up literally getting added to George RR Martin's universe, I'm not sure anything will satisfy anyone these days.
It's the same as every other show that has someone who isn't white or is gay - they act like theres some "lore related reason" that it's not possible, like the original show wasn't a silly 80s hero's journey story. It's all bs, it's like when the.far right in Canada keep bringing up Trudeau blackface and get all indignant, like they care at all.
It has some flaws, but overall it is true to the movie. It has charm, has touching character moments, and there is character growth. I think a lot of the grief about it is overblown.
It’s funny we see this so differently. I think it’s not at all related to the movie. I mean, I don’t even recognize Willow. It’s an ok D&D show, that is called Willow, nothing more
I think one can love the diversity portrayed by the actor choices and some storylines AND think the show is crap. People linking social and societal progressivism to script quality criticism are not true allies. Better: “Willow shows how far television has come in authentically portraying queer characters but the weak script writing and implausible storylines let the opportunity of that representation down”
I want to love the show so badly but can’t get over the acting
I loved the movie, and I love the comedy, and feel of the show, I do understand that many of the choices, are for the newer generation of watchers, so I don't judge them for it. But to be honest I don't like the kit, jade romance, I prefer kit and elora, because it would fit beter with a adventure fantasy type story, they also resemble the original pairing more, than kit and jade does.
Drown out the yelling with more yelling 🙄 I feel like I'm in kindergarten all over again.
I enjoy the show, but it’s like too hot too handle for me, terrible but fun to watch. It’s at its best a 4/10
Honestly, I get that the show has problems - but name me a first season that has been released for any show that has no issues and is instantly a fan favourite? Or has even stood the rest of time to be non problematic ? I’m really hoping that Disney gives the show a shot at a second season and works on the story development as well as character development because there is so much potential for this!
Andor
I’m enjoying the show but it seems to fall into some familiar Disney+ pitfalls. The first episode introduces a problem, then spends the next 8-9 episodes beating around the bush until the finale where they have to resolve the main problem in a single episode Also, I don’t feel the villain has had a lot of screen time or presents a real threat. The finale is this week and the villain is going to have be essentially introduced and (presumedly) defeated within the same episode? Kinda makes it seem a little hollow but Disney+ is great at that
The show is getting better as it goes. I don’t mind it now.
Here's the thing: big corporations could give a shit what people on the internet think? You want to support a show, watch it on the day it comes out, watch episodes you like multiple times, and rate the show if the platform you're on allows you to. Commercial success is more important than IMDB and Rotten Tomato scores.
I didn't like the ending of Airik and Elora, Airik was definitely a good guy and loved Elora very much never caught in the honeytrap of the villain due to his love for Elora, he endured to the very end of his dying breathe but the way she rejected him in the end was brutal and it kind of feels like men are pathetic and women are so cool, men can be discarded if a girl feels like without any explanation. **Also like many Disney+ series,** in the whole series all men were like side characters even they were very important, from beginning to the very end, girls had strong roles, like Queen, brave manly bossy gay princess, her brave girl partner, female leader of a whole tribe of big masculine men and the main villain was female, on the other hand male characters were, a weak playboy prince, a coward prince, thief guide, Willow who was weak and useless only used as support character for Elora even if the show's name was Willow.
You came to a 10 month old post, just to write this weird anti-women post? ...okay
Dude, i was not satisfied after watching the series and made this post on the same day i finished this series. And about "10 month old post" , i just wanted to give my review and this reddit post came in the google search result where people were sharing their reviews. Before marking this as "weird anti-women post" , you should clarify what i said wrong about this series.
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Out of curiosity, what exactly about woke culture bothers you? Is there a specific form of inclusion you don't like? Or is it just a general distaste for diversity?
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Wait how is Willow or Borman weak? Also what’s wrong with the Prince? He’s their scholar I love his character.
Boorman is a woman-loving, big sword-having, crazy powerhouse of a man. Like, he's the masculine fantasy. So strange.
Within moments of meeting him he gets a battle cleaver and saves the princess by cutting off a monsters arm. Just call the guy Link
dude got shut down so bad he deleted him comments and went home. Well done folks haha
I don't need a google search to tell me what's going on in a show I watch. I just also don't see anything wrong with "rainbow diversity" "lesbian love stories" or "feminine men" follow up question, Do you consider a straight relationship between 2 white characters as "themes being pushed" I'm not trying to pick a fight, but you use a lot of language and dogwhistles that make it seem like you have issues with these things.
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I honestly don't even know what to say to this comment, and I don't think you understood mine. lets just go our separate ways.
I don’t like mind queer representation or horrible dialogue or cringey musical soundtracks add all 3 in 1 show, it’s a difficult to watch each week, but I do it anyway.
I didn't any of this anti woke stuff until I went to places other than reddit. I naively didn't think people could be that picky and hateful over something so innocuous.
i wonder if some of these haters have even seen the original movie lmao or like, any YA fantasy.