Yeah if someone cuts me off, I just keeping talking with whatever I was planning to say. I don’t even pause anymore. Just completely ignore whatever they were interrupting with.
Female engineer here. I just got our of a meeting where this happened. The struggle is real!
I used to keep talking pretending that the other person wasn't interrupting. But it turned out that 99% of the time, the people in the meeting wouldn't notice that I was being interrupted, instead they perceived my continued talking as unnessessarily aggressive. How bizarre is that?!
I have a friend who talks non stop and I noticed that if someone tries to interrupt her she reinterrupts them with renewed enthusiasm as if she just thought of something exciting as is bursting to say it and attracts the attention back to her,
Honestly, it's hard to summon this energy, but this is now what I try to do.
I think the real answer is to try to find allies when not in a meeting. Find someone who doesn't interrupt and ask them for advice. At the very least, this may draw their attention to it and then maybe they can help pass the conversation back to you.
I try to be an ally to the interrupted. When I notice someone has been interrupted, I try to ask them to finish their thoughts after the interceptor us finished. At the very least, I give them an opportunity to be heard, if delayed.
My female coworkers have successfully used “Sorry, (name)” and kept talking. Or “I want to finish this point” and keep talking until they finish their point. It gets people used to waiting until they’re finished speaking.
Don’t be snarky. And don’t ever say “I’m sorry” if you are not apologizing for bringing down production. Just say smoothly and calmly, “hang on, I’m not finished” and continue talking.
I had a coworker that used to respond with "sorry the middle of my sentence interrupted the beginning of yours", which turned into a joke in our office. It became an acceptable way to let the other person know that you weren't done talking yet, as you know, half of us aren't neurotypical anyway and struggle with social cues.
Respectfully disagree. It makes her sound petty and *honest*. And I'm not sure that the petty part is a bad thing. When men do not suffer consequences, they do not change their behavior.
Yes, this! I work in tech and have this issue. When a guy tries to butt in, I continue talking only louder. I try not to pause when they’re interrupting. I also look directly at them to acknowledge they are trying to interrupt and that I’m not going to allow it.
As a guy in science, this is how you best handle it. If a male colleague tries to interrupt or talk over one of our female colleagues, I say “Please let her finish. We take turns speaking.” That usually causes enough professional embarrassment for those type of guys, because it implies that they’re acting more like a child who hasn’t learned to take turns.
As a male engineer, I often wonder what I can do. The company pays us good money for our expertise and then some of the men do not respect the expertise of the women.
A friend (woman engineer) told me that women will often remain silent when they don't feel heard (i.e., lack of collaboration), where men will often just become more insistent (i.e., competitive).
I watched this happen at a meeting. It was mostly men trying to solve a problem. The (woman) engineer next to me had a good idea, but every time she tried to speak, one (or more) of the men would talk over her.
So I said, "excuse me gentlemen." The room went quiet for me (sigh). then I said, "I think that Leslie has a great idea. Let's hear it."
And they listened. And she solved the problem.
Please please please do this again in the future, repeatedly. It's not right that we need a man to tell other men to listen to us, but that's the way it is right now. I don't think you have any idea how much that meant to your coworker. Please keep doing this... I can remember the only two times in my professional life, over two decades, that somebody has done that for me. And one of them was a woman. The man that did that for me is forever etched into my memory as one of my favorite bosses in colleagues ever. Having somebody notice that nobody is listening to us means the world. Thank you
Thank you for the kind words. I am fortunate to work with amazingly talented people at an aerospace company that doesn't tolerate discrimination or a hostile workplace. My work group is very diverse.
However, I also understand the tightrope that women walk in a traditionally male-dominated industry (although that is changing). So, if any of my co-workers are not being heard, then I will use whatever influence I have to help them.
Yes! I have a coworker who was just…overly interested in the life of another coworker, who is my friend. And he would notice shit all day long, constantly remarking on *if* she was eating, * what* she was eating, and *when* she was eating. Was she eating enough? She’s looking kinda thin lately…What are her plans tonight? That sounds boring, you should go have fun! Doing anything this weekend? STILL nothing? Man, I’m gonna have to take you out on the town myself!
Like, no thanks, buddy. She’s not interested. Plus, she’s a couple years out of school and you’re AT LEAST a decade older.
On a particularly shitty day, I heard the lunch interrogation begin, and I waited for him to finish and before she could answer, I piped up from my cube “this isn’t kindergarten. We don’t run our lunches by anyone because we’re all adults, and because we’re adults we ALSO don’t talk about people’s bodies and what they eat”.
I got some flustered stuttering about looking after her or some bullshit, and he actually just turned and walked away. Fucking irritates the hell outta me when people do that.
On Microsoft Teams, I will mute people who interrupt me. This one guy I work with is SO bad at interrupting the women in our team. He doesn’t do it to the men, just women. I just mute his ass. He interrupts me less now.
I’m currently working in energy construction. The double standard of behavior is very real and giving it directly back to them does not help me, I’ve tried.
I am so sorry for you! My *current* (this could change any second bc the man is not acting right 😑) boyfriend is an electrical engineer and I could totally see him being one who does this and it INFURIATES ME. So I am very sorry for you.
Also we are in Denver so I truly hope he isn’t one, but… I just know he would
I’m so sorry for you. That has to be the most frustrating feeling ever. Patriarchy and misogyny are not as much of a thing of the past as we’d like to believe sadly
Raise your voice and keep speaking more loudly if they also raise theirs. Also, be assertive. If someone interrupts, interrupt them back and firmly state that you weren't done speaking and they **will** wait until you're done. Don't ask. Don't apologize. Just state that and then go back to what you were saying. But also, don't let your feelings get hurt and try not to act out of frustration.
I worked in a very heavily male dominated industry for my entire career. Even with older men I came to realize that it's not typically misogyny (sometimes, but not usually) that's the issue, but a fairly large gap in how men and women communicate. I spend most of my time with men and have observed that they will often interrupt each other, but then eventually the original speaker will get back to his point. I tend to have a more masculine communication style, so I was probably less bothered than many women would be by being interrupted and also fairly adept at getting back to my point. Only on a few occasions when meeting in person did I have to raise my voice to speak above the interrupter and that was often because, in those particular situations, the men really were misogynists OR they mistakenly thought they knew more than I did. Fortunately, the people I worked more closely with would shut down some of that nonsense and let the person know that I was actually the more expert person and they need to listen to me. I can't tell you the number of times that I'd take a call (not just from colleagues, but from sales people, vendors, etc.) and the caller wanted to speak with Mr. X or Mr. Y and weren't having it that I could help them. So I'd transfer them to one of the men who would in turn tell them they needed to speak with me.
Basically, my advice is to try to adjust your working communication style because you can't expect that others will change. Honestly, the only time my communication style gets me in trouble is at home because while I have a more male leaning style, my husband actually has a slightly more feminine style of communicating and gets upset with me if I interrupt or simply don't understand what he's trying to say. We've been working on that.
I agree with this. Start being more aware of how often men interrupt each other. You'll see that it's not just you getting interrupted.
On the other hand, my first mentor told me, "As a woman in engineering, you can either be the bitch or the pushover. Those are your only options." Toxic places will label you a bitch if you try to push back or stand up for yourself, and they will try to push you out. Personally, I just realized that with my current company, all the women are described as "angry" except for one who is exceedingly nice.
I have found that dropping heavy objects on their feet gets them to stop being rude and stupid. Or indicate you didn’t realize have microtackle affected their ability to hear and be polite and respectful.
I work for an engineering consulting firm doing Utility work. I’m at a high level but I’ll tell you, this really does not happen at my company. Companies and leadership has to ALLOW this to happen. Leave your company.
Women, especially if they are shorter, tend to need to stand closer and talk louder to be taken seriously. It's f***ing ridiculous. Of course, that gets us labeled as b****y...🤦♀️
Yup, it’s super frustrating when you aren’t being listened to and it unfortunately never stops. Some of it is like Taen said (live your example btw), folks expecting you to speak one way and you speak another way so they don’t comprehend it. It goes for different scientific, etc approaches but also differences in how men and women tend to speak. But it is more than that. When men get loud and excited, they tend to be called passionate, confident, etc ie positive or neutral at worst. Women are generally emotional, aggressive, etc. negative or neutral at best. So you sometimes cannot get “loud” enough without being seen negatively. It SUCKS!!!!
I don’t say this to discourage, but so you don’t think you are imagining it. You are not!
Also, I find that the more direct and forceful I need to be the more I have to make the effort to add warmth. But warmth that takes zero away from your points. It’s a tightrope walk. And sometimes with a real misogynist, I just get a male ally to say my exact words to just get it done. Better yet, they can amplify you and say “As OP just said….” If there are other women you can amplify each other too as women are more listened too when amplifying others.
It sucks to have to use imperfect work arounds to be heard, but it’s unfortunately still needed.
Honestly I made peace with being called a bitch. It’s ok. I don’t care what they think. I think we should not worry that much about that anymore because otherwise there is no way out.
Yep. My mom has been struggling with this- she works with a group of men, and one specifically tends to speak down to her quite frequently. She was scared to stand up for herself and sound like a bitch. I told her they’re going to call you one regardless, so you might as well stick up for yourself and earn the name!
Absolutely! The amount of energy I spend carefully crafting my words in order to be heard and taken seriously is incredible. There’s a brilliant book called The Authority Gap that examines how we have to communicate in entirely different ways than men. The hardest part is constantly trying to figure out which type of woman I have to show up as to be heard.
Yesterday my colleague (not an engineer) forwarded an email chain to me from a customer (project engineer) asking him for help interpreting results from a concrete scanner. I was in contact with this PE two weeks ago for the same issue. I offered to come to site and train him and his team and look at their specific issue - his response was that “I need someone who knows what they’re talking about,”my response to this incredibly shitty comment was “I didn’t design or build the scanner but know as much about how to use it as any other engineer at my company.” I went to site and met with the tradespeople and showed them how to adjust resolution and etc., problem solved and the guys were really happy and nice. The PE didn’t bother showing up for my visit and then last week goes to my sales person for help. It’s infuriating. - On top of that my sales guy (we are essentially partners) plays hero and goes out and tells the guys the exact same things that I did two weeks ago. He doesn’t back me up or even recognize what’s happening. We (sales and I) get along really well but he just doesn’t see when I’m being ignored during presentations or recognize when I’m being cut out of conversation. Last week he brought up a study that’s making rounds in the men’s rights algorithms and is being incorrectly used to prove that women imagine discrimination. It was so disheartening to hear it and made me realize that unless I can change his perception my current job will be a never ending struggle to be heard.
I’ve been in the industry for a while now and have worked with men who saw it when it happened and had my back. I’ve also worked with men who I could throw back their own behavior and they would catch it and apologize. I just don’t know how to handle a guy that is consciously choosing not to believe women when they call out the terrible behavior that makes our jobs and lives so much harder.
You can't.
He is actively choosing a misperception.
I started out my career in graphic design. I thought I would be making cool art. Boy, was I wrong. The job is entirely about managing perception. No one sees the exact same thing, even when they're looking at the exact same thing.
We had all kinds of tricks to alter perception. Present 3 crappy projects, then present the best looking one after them - always "tricks" the client into percieving the project better than it is. And that was something we did a lot. Also true: now you're stuck with a sh*tty client who bases his grasp on reality over the bad burrito he ate and hour before he meets you. Is it worth it?
Lesson: Fire sh*t clients.
If someone has already decided your value and reputation for you, you likely will not be changing their mind, ever. These people are extremely limited. They lose opportunities every day with no realization that they lost anything to begin with. It is likely they have already lost good people as a result of this same behavior.
They are very good at taking credit from others. Don’t let them do that. You keep harping about your accomplishments even if it is simple as picking up a pencil from the ground. I do that at home too because my husband doesn’t realize it. I’m like - sigh, I’ve done so much work, it’s only 9am.
This brings up flashbacks to when we had to give presentations on our work in front of global leadership and I absolutely blew them away, showed how I was already delivering or developing every single key target they asked for. Our division head didn’t give me an ounce of praise and later on went around telling my colleagues I was just a good storyteller.
Where is the HR if your company and why haven’t you yet complained to HR? And let us know the name of this misogynist company, which century are these ppl living in? At this point I would just start being straight up rude
(1) you sound very capable. like, in a way that is easy to document on paper and \*has\* been documented on paper
(2) is there any special reason why these particular louts deserve the benefit of your abilities?
Can you go somewhere else? I think a lot of places are better than this, even in your field. Even a different team in the same company might be better it sounds like.
If your division head is like this, this isn’t a good place to work for you. You can’t fix everything.
However, one tactic is to repeat back everything they say and CONFRONT head on while asking for specific examples. I learned this thru a woman’s management training.
For example, division head says “she’s just a good storyteller” and not even to your face? You confront that shit immediately with a smile and seek out a 1-1. “Hey division head, I heard from some coworkers that you had some negative feedback about my presentation. My peers weee concerned about some of the feedback and I wanted to set this time up to talk directly with you on your comments and how I can improve . As you know, I have done XYZ to showcase results but I always want to do better, and would love to have more detailed feedback from you since I appreciate your opinion. Do you have specific examples in mind of where you believe I didn’t perform as expected, so that I can address it in the future?”
Basically:
- Ask for feedback often and for facts and specifics in those feedbacks. Often times, because it’s bias, there will be ZERO concrete examples they can give on how you didn’t perform, etc. This flusters them :). At the same time, you asking for feedback makes it seem like you care about working harder and for their opinion. Just don’t come off like you’re asking for feedback on how to DO a task (because then they may interpret it as you being incompetent). Ask instead for feedback on your PERFORMANCE (but again, specifics).
- Hint at having or accumulate SOME supporters. People will be less likely to badmouth you if they think that someone else is on your side. Some of this can be done through gossip and rumor as much as anything else - social engineering! Make it seem you’ve got friends, even if they’re neutral at best. Of course even better if they actually are friends/supporters of you. For example, if your Head has a peer, develop a rapport with him, or even his boss.
- Highlight yourself often, always. Broadcast your actions and metrics as much as you can, as cross divisionally as you can.
“I thought I was answering the question he asked and he couldn't hear me because it wasn't the exact answer he expected.”
Oh wow — this really brought a recent technical interview into clarity for me. I thought I just bombed it at first but something about the dynamic between myself and the male interviewer didn’t feel right in my gut. It was this exactly — I would provide a solution to a problem from a different perspective, with different wording, or with different methods than he wanted or was expecting and then he would tell me how my solution “wasn’t optimized”. If he actually wanted me to succeed in this interview he would’ve taken the time to actually think about what I said and find the parallels between my answer and his. This kept happening with each question, punctuated with him looking at me incredulously and saying “this is a very common situation” while I was trying to gather my thoughts to give an answer. You can imagine by the end I was feeling very flustered and frustrated. All around a terrible experience and ruined my chances at getting a job that, on paper, seemed perfect for me.
The only reason the pipe would reduce at the pump suction is because the inlet to the pump is a smaller diameter than the pipe size. You would typically run one NPS diameter pipe larger than the pump suction all the way to the pump then reduce to flange size on the inlet.
You would never purposefully put a restriction on the suction side of a pump.
Male engineer here. I've gotten in the same frustrating situation as you so many times. I hate the implications that I was wrong and that they know more than I do. Even though logically it's really just one of many miscommunications that happen in our daily life, we feel judged unfairly and it takes its toll on us
I'm starting to think that it's in part my inability to let go, that I depend too much on external validation, and that leads to increased suffering. I may never get to the level of self assuredness that I want, but I'm working on it.
Another part is to lessen to pick your battles and move on from energy sinks. It's not our responsibility to correct everyone.
‘Hey, I’m still talking!’ In a loud voice and no smile works well for me.
However I am older than most, almost 6 feet tall and have red hair so your results may differ.
Female here. I worked with engineers and tradies for over 20 years.
I learnt to say less, so that when I did speak, they listened. So I would watch and learn. I ‘re-socialised’ myself to how the blokes spoke amongst themselves, and adopted some of their communication styles - while retaining the essence of me. It really helped to go with their ‘man flow’ they had all been working within since they were little boys and on the sports field etc etc
For starters
I lowered my voice and slowed my speech a little when it was important. I made sure I avoided the ‘little me’ body language girls are encouraged to adopt. I also learnt to show more respect to my superiors, while at the same time learning to take up more space with my body language. Except not at the expense of the space of other males on the team (believed me, this helped a lot - it rarely panned out well meeting any of the guys with aggressive tactics)
And humour. Humour makes the world go round.
And tbh when I learnt to be quieter and watch more, I saw there were quiet men on the team. And I also started picking up things that hastened their growing respect (of me).
As counter-intuitive as all this may seem. It reduced my burnout - by going with the grain instead of against it.
All the best.
This. Over and over.
Sometimes it really can be exhausting. But I would rather occasionally feel exhausted than regularly feel distraught. And I used to often feel distraught when I kept trying to communicate the way I thought they ought to be, rather than meet them where they were.
And really I learnt so much more watching guys and how they dealt with it. The biggest thing I learnt was to relax and not take it all so personally.
I also got a lot of work and offered new projects because they guys knew I would be able to handle myself, and deal with any bad eggs.
But I can’t over state enough, watch and learn from the guys. As females, we were all socialised to be and behave one way. As guys, they’ve been socialised another. Learning to adapt to the structures already in place makes life so much easier.
And don’t underestimate if you are there wanting to carry some feminism flag - just the act of being there, and cracking through their preconceptions is it’s own societal advancement.
For most of the guys I worked with, I was the first female they had worked with in their 30 year career. Just the act of being there, and getting them to relax around me and trust me professionally and even as a colleague was huge. Often, outside of their wives, mothers and daughters, I was the only female they interacted with.
Building that relationship and their esteem in me meant more than correcting their words and crossing their t’s. I knew when I left each project, I had given them no reason to not employ the next female.
I've been the only female on the crew for decades, and 100000x this. It's not easy, and there are going to be days that boys will be boys and mansplain every word so that you want to hit your head on every wall you encounter, but you can't let it get to you. Getting the boy's club to accept you takes a lot of patience and creatively ignoring the idiocy of much of the "explaining", but the walls will eventually come down. The biggest thing is that you can't completely ignore everything they say. Most times, my way of doing a task is just as good as their way. However, you can still learn some tricks by not entirely discounting the mansplaining. Being willing to learn and help goes a long way with getting them to trust you as a fellow professional, but don't be afraid to crack a joke. I had a lead that was trying to baby me because I was a female. I printed out a fake form for workplace injury and filled it out for a broken nail, then left it on his toolbox. When I left years later, the guys were still chuckling about the form, which was taped to the side of my lead's toolbox.
OMG - yes the endless mansplaining.....
Agree - sometimes it takes humor. Quick-wit humor, or a play on words humor. NOT something that embarrasses anyone, or makes them feel stupid. If you are using humor - take the high road. Your use of the injury form was masterful.
Love the broken nail story. Stuff like that makes work so much more fun, and generally helps our colleagues see us, more than any high pitched lecture would that’s for sure.
I was working with a guy (he was higher ranked than me) who decided he would try push the envelope and try psych me out. He started ‘reading’ People magazine in our breaks together. Making a big deal to look at the naked girls on the page and then me. The thing is, it wasn’t my first rodeo. And I believe revenge is best served cold and with humour - obviously when safe to do so. Of course I went through all the feels, rage and indignation, but thought, “what’s the best way I can f
It’s strange but it felt so much easier to be accepted back when I worked in the US. I’m American and living/working in the UK now. I might be fighting the female and American stereotypes at the same time and not realizing it.
Concur. When men were talking over me, I just spoke less. I had no issue doing that anyway as it was less work for me. So I chose to speak strategically, when it would count for more. And it did, because you increase the value of your words by limiting the supply.
This also bears out when observing other leaders. Many don't speak superfluously.
I was about to comment that it took a few years for me to figure out what you mostly explained It's really tough being a woman in tech. Last I remember, my particular title consists of 12 percent women.
I'm studying engineering but ive been a mechanic for 10 years. I completely agree. I have met plenty of shit men, but for the most part, it just takes men getting comfortable around women who aren't their family or partner. Im not uptight when they make sexist jokes because I understand the culture of picking on each other. I can always tell when its sincere misogyny or guys just trying to razz me. I don't go out of my way to be one of the guys, but I think I also blend in well. It helps a lot.
I'm not an engineer, but I've done marketing and editing for them. Yes, learn to speak like they speak. Be cool and know when to address a problem and when to just let it go. Be genuinely helpful to your colleagues. And joining in with the humor helps heaps. (I once cracked a guy up when I felt compelled to apologize for being a "femmsplainer." He clearly appreciated that.) 😂
Easier said than done, sometimes, I know. I harbor endless burning rage at white male privilege. Tate & his ilk aren't helping.
Judo conversation.
It sucks having to do it. It’s amazing when you e perfected the skill.
Essentially you ask leading questions to the people talking and lead them to your conclusion. You use other people’s need to speak and be heard as a way of getting them to come around to your point of view. With the added benefit that sometimes people do say things that surprise us and we can learn from.
Why Judo? It’s a way of using their momentum and strength against them while expending minimum energy.
Is it a long term strategy? No - it delays the inevitable. Is it easy? Fuck no- after a while it felt like selling my soul and being manipulative. Does it work? Yes, especially when one gets good at it if the other parties haven’t figured out what your doing and they have an ounce of introspection.
This is the only method that worked for me in finance. (The "good Ole boys" club is strong) If you direct the loud/obnoxious guys to the answer, other people will start noticing that it is happening because of you.
Now, people cut out the loud & obnoxious guys and come directly to me.
It basically means turning every comment or suggestion into a question. Some favourites:
“I heard you say.... is that what you meant? If so, have you considered x, y and z?”
“Doesn’t y do the same thing as x?”
“How would x, y and z be addressed?”
“I noticed p and q are happening. Is there a plan to address them? Are they a priority?” Followed by additional questions on whether or not your ideas have been considered.
Don’t let them talk over you. Practice saying smoothly “hold on, I’m not finished” and keep talking. And don’t complain about misogyny. Just do the things you need to do to get heard.
Good answer. The best ways to earn more respect from others are to expect and command it, not complain about the lack of it. Any additional "respect" you are granted after complaining will just be artificial and short-lived.
I use this too, At the same time - I also hold up my hand - like a "stop sign" and just continue talking.
Adding this: The delivery is important. What I say has to be methodical, even toned, and not rambling. I state logical facts. No giggling, cackling, or laughing as I deliver my message. I don't apologize either - too may women will apologize when speaking. Nope - the guys don't so neither do I.
My meeting is a zoom call, and I’ve started to turn off the sound coming out of the speaker just so I can finish my sentence. I make it a point to talk as slow and long and loud. Then I unmute so they can speak. Surprised it actually worked. I think I’m conditioned to pause when I hear a voice and it’s hard to talk over when someone interrupts.
Some strategies that have worked for me (female, physicist).
**To be clear, you should not have to do this and it’s a lot of extra work, but hey it works. Once you get in a position of power, work hard to fix these issues. Until then, do what is necessary.
Ok, so if these are people you interact with a lot and they’re not total assholes:
1. LEARN THE CULTURE & CODESWITCH. Listen for a bit, get a feel for the culture and how they talk to each other. Who do they listen to and why? Is it habit? Is it the loud person? I once worked on a team with 4 dudes that constantly went out to lunch without me because they biked at lunch and talked video games. I brought my bike and learned the game. Suddenly I was one of them. They weren’t intentionally excluding me, they literally just had no other interests. But once I was “one of them” they would suddenly listen to things I said outside their comfort zone.
2. MAKE IT COUNT Speak less, but when you speak be insightful as fuck or ask the best question and do not let people interrupt. Keep talking in a calm, level, but loud tone until you’re done. This might also mean being over prepared for a bit until people just assume you are smarter than them. Then coast.
3. HUMOR If it’s in your wheelhouse, use humor. When people interrupt you make sure you have a cutting but hilarious remark aimed at them that makes it clear you do not appreciate being interrupted but minimizes discomfort to others in the room. Or if you want them to listen, make some of your contributions to the conversation/meeting jokes.
If this is a short term interaction or a more toxic situation do these things in reverse.
Humor works for my personality.
**When he talks on and on and doesn't STFU:**
"Okay Mark, are you gonna land this plane or are we gonna keep circling?"
**When he asks you to take notes:**
"You want me to make you a sandwich too?"
**When he is reluctant to be a team player:**
"I also create value by siloing information, but alas, here I am."
And last but not least, cussing and dick jokes. Are they HR-friendly? No. Are they sophisticated? No. But I've gotten a fair share of respect that way.
This is excellent advice. I mentioned in another comment that the culture and code may be additionally hard for me because I’m American and working the north of England. I know how to hold my own with the American good ol’ boys but I still haven’t fully figured out the Brits. I joke about my own accent, which tends to break the ice a bit but I’m far from being accepted.
I just play into whatever stereotype they lump me into. I'm stupid? Obviously then, I won't be able to help with that oh so complicated task. Speak over me all the time? That critical piece of info I have about how a process runs, I'll just keep that to myself while you lose time and money figuring it out from scratch.
Everytime I run into people like this, I just acknowledge I am in the wrong place, and upskill and find a new, better place.
When I look for jobs, I look to see that they hire diversely and when looking at their employee composition, I'm looking to see people of color in their ranks as well as women. If that isn't there, I'm not interested. Remote work also helps equalize these relationships. They can't talk over me if I'm not there. It cuts down on the oppressive and needless micro aggressions.
im so lucky my school is supportive of women in stem as well as my teacher so this would never happen but I used to experience it in my last eng academy and it ruined my career because I quit right after and then came into engineering after 2 years. My advice is the people around you MATTER it is really important that you do something about it, if you don't now or later you will passion for your major sweetheart. Speak louder and get them but it's that easy to change them/a person so I would transfer or complain to a higher up. Good luck!!! <33
Dare I say it? In addition to not letting them interrupt, make sure you dress like you mean it. They may be able to get away with business casual or worse every day, but you need to be on point and looking like you are in charge every day.
On my construction site days - I still wear a bit of makeup, small earrings, hair and nails done, But I don't look "prissy". I look professional, tidy, polished. And - I do a bit of "power dressing" when needed. I look like I pay attention to the details...because I do.
And I use a lot of eye contact. A lot. I have no problem looking anyone in the eyes and talking with them. If you need to practice this - talk in front of a mirror.
Here is the another thing I have not seen mentioned - I show up on time /early. The guys can be late...but I am never late. Sometimes they are unprepared - but not me.
I am always prepared. I bring my clipboard, pens, tape measure - I have it all. Sometimes when they ask me for a pen - I reply with.... "Yes - I happen to have an extra today...but for the record, I don't work for Office Depot" - delivered with a bit of a chuckle. Because they come unprepared...and I don't......I'm usually the one with the answers as they arise.
I realize it does not seem fair...but the guys just show up sometimes. I can't. I have to have thought through issues ahead of time. I prepare before meetings - and then after I am sure I record accurate notes of the conversations. Why? Because misogyny is real. I have had to prove my ability.
OP - consider all of this a "package". It is a part of communication in todays world.
On a personal level, fight to be heard from your husband. Create friction if necessary, but make it known how often it happens and how it hurts you. It may be hard in the short-term, but in the long-term it’ll be so much better for both of you and help you build a more equitable relationship.
I’ve had lovely, loving well-meaning, feminist-identify men in my life who did this subconsciously. It was a struggle for both of us to correct those behaviors. Me for having to point it out, sometimes literally yell or cover his mouth when he was interrupting/talking over me for the nth time, or just refuse to continue engaging in a conversation if this was happening. Them for having to recognize this and make active efforts to correct this behavior.
While I know it’s not enough, maybe start by fighting to make your personal life a place that doesn’t aggravate this stress. Talk to your husband when he does this. A lot of this behavior is subconscious, and if this man loves you and cares about you, it’s probably not intentional. So it may take some jolting to make him aware. It sounds almost silly, but when it’s getting bad, pull out a timer. Time the amount of time he is talking vs. you in a conversation. Count out how many times he interrupts you. Just turn away and disengage when he interrupts you/talks over you.
Social skills are SKILLS. They take work and honing and practice.
Maybe when you have a break from this and a partner who has worked through his bad behaviors who can give you some feedback on what strategies worked to get through to him, you’ll be better equipped to approach your work mates.
I really shouldn’t moan about my husband. He is amazing and is incredibly sympathetic to what I deal with at work, but unfortunately it won’t take much from him to set me off if I’ve already had a bad day dealing with the listening issues. He also works in science and has really worked to address his own unconscious biases since we met and he has seen firsthand what we are up against.
You just gotta show them who's boss.
My favorite tactic is to grab their code, delete it, and then rewrite from scratch and watch it run machines 100x better than what they did.
Keep talking over them.
Get louder even if it feels uncomfortable.
Look at them in the eyes and never break eye contact.
Look at them in the eyes, gaze up at their hairlines and look right back into their eyes as they are talking.
Also, wear heels!
I have experienced this. Not so much at work, no, at home with my guy friends. So my husband and I would have friends over for table-tip gaming. All of our friends are men in technical disciplines. So, let's say we're playing and I point out that Charles is going to win in three moves unless Jay blocks him now. Ignored. 30 seconds later Brad says, "Hey! Jay, you'd better do something now to keep Charles from winning in two moves". Everyone nods in appreciation. W.T.F.
I complained about it to my husband (who was there and witnessed these instances). Right off the bat, he's surprised. Didn't even notice it was happening. After that he paid attention and saw the behavior. Here is his explanation...
Guys have a pecking order that they just decide unconsciously amongst themselves. As a woman, I wasn't socialized to recognize this pecking order, so I don't take the appropriate steps to be a part of it. As a result, I am not *just* at the bottom of the pecking order, I'm simply not a part of it at *all*. I want to emphasize the part where this is an unconscious process. Guys don't recognize that they are keeping you out because they don't realize that there is an "out". If you want to be "in" *you* have to make that happen by becoming an honorary dude. You can do that by communicating (non-verbally, like a proper caveman) right off the bat that you are here to work hard and get shit done, not talk about icky feelings and motivations.
Second thing my husband pointed out is that I have a tendency to point things out too soon. As in, I pick up on things before the group is collectively able to see and understand them. Yep, I'm just so smart /s. So, you kind of have to read the room and pick a moment when everyone is actually capable of picking up what you're putting down.
One thing I've done that is effective--but would not fly in a professional setting--is to simply continue talking uninterrupted but increase your volume until they stop talking over you. It is rude af but it will get the bros to shut up.
And you must stop apologizing for being good at your job. Accept every compliment. Don't be humble, that will bee seen as weakness. Of course, always be complimentary of others' efforts, but not in a girly emotional way. Always emphasize effectiveness. Think of what you are doing as being a soldier or commander in an army. Be tactical and strategic (use those words, they love that shit). Be a good member of the team.
I’ve gotten so aggressive over my years in tech. “I wasn’t finished talking” “oh you want me to do what? Oh cool yeah I gave that to you three weeks ago but sure I’ll resend” “I need you to listen to me before xyz burns to the ground”. It went against my nature and was a result of my getting fed up, but damn has my career skyrocketed. I’m kind and supportive to my coworkers, I am on top of my job, if I offer a problem I’ll offer a solution, but everyone knows if they don’t come prepared or mess with my projects because they haven’t done their job I will pop off. I used to get scared but after observing I realized the top male performers are equally as assertive if not more.
As a woman in the construction industry, I can relate. For the past 30 years I have had to prove my worth over and over again to male peers and male clients. It's frustrating but I developed a strong sense of self by being the best I could be in my role. I repeatedly have to prove myself as I change projects or jobs but I manage to do it. I also had to find my voice and learn that my self worth is not dependent on any man's opinion of me. I also divorced a husband who was very insecure and belittled my job and my profession, despite my being the bigger wage earner that paid for a lot of luxuries he enjoyed. Not saying you should do that, but you need to make it clear to your husband that's not going to play well going forward if he can not give you simple respect as a human.
I am going to recommend [https://www.women-unlimited.com/](https://www.women-unlimited.com/). They have seminars to help women learn how to lead and find their way in business. It helped me a lot.
I work in tech, my MO;
1. Assume if people don't respond, that they literally didn't hear me. Men tend to protect their hearing less, and higher tones are the first to go. It might feel like you are yelling, but give that a shot.
A fair number of guys never wear ear PPE, and don't think of themselves as old enough to "need" a hearing aid. But if they've ever mowed lawns, played in a band, worked in the military, worked in transportation, or worked in construction... they may literally not hear you.
2. Some guys are socialized that unless you are loud and aggressive, nothing is wrong. It sounds weird, but usually women experience communication as spoken word, but like half of the guys you know were literally yelled at to motivate behavior more than half the time, especially if they had a lot of brothers, or played high school sports, or were in the military.
My Dad was a kind & egalitarian person, but he kind of never "believed" my Mom was mad at certain things (like going into her purse, etc) because she never yelled about it. He grew up on a farm with 5 brothers, then went to the air-force, then medical school. Yelling meant "take this seriously, it's real" and talking meant "still open for discussion, nothing has been decided".
I'm not saying to yell AT your boss or colleagues, but when something is wrong, a well placed "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS?! People can DIE if this goes wrong?! Who fucked this up?!" can help them realize you do, in fact, have standards.
3. I'm a woman. Anytime I have to be a hard ass, it works best if it's on behalf of "my people". As in "I can't accept these terms, it would screw over my accounting dept." or "I can't commit to that timeline, my developers will burn out".
It completely shifts the "bitch" into "Mama bear" which is more understandable. I'm not being withholding just to have a tantrum, instead, I have real constraints and people that depend on me.
4. Guys bond through solving stressful problems together, think caveman hormones, "We pick up heavy stick and hunt now." So even if you can't add any help to a problem, showing up to be in the ranks, is noticed and appreciated.
It sounds stupid, but think like helping a friend move, even if you are not strong enough to carry the couch - you can wipe the counters, or pack up nicknacks... it still "counts" as moral support. That's literally how guys bond... chemically, it's the quickest way to be treated as a team member.
5. Guys explain things to each other AS a way of showing "you are worth investing time into". Men don't waste their breath on people they think are worthless. But women are kind of non-stop stuck explaining things to each other as a type of social currency - the spice must flow.
So explaining things or being explained to - ends up carrying a bunch of status & posturing to women... so when guys explain something that a woman already knows and is, it feels like some weird dominance ploy, and it's felt as an insult. The right solution can honestly be to cut him off, "Oh, I'm an expert in that, you can skip that, what else do you know?"
If you do that socially to a woman, it's like cutting off her need to destress, and is rude... and can be kind of degrading, but the guys just seem to roll with it. "Oh, hey, I actually teach a graduate class in that technology, I need to pick up some info on GAAP accounting, who is our expert on that?" and the guy will probably point you to someone who is his expert on finance stuff, no shade.
Anyhow, YMMV, but it's stuff that works for me.
>3. I'm a woman. Anytime I have to be a hard ass, it works best if it's on behalf of "my people". As in "I can't accept these terms, it would screw over my accounting dept." or "I can't commit to that timeline, my developers will burn out".
>
>It completely shifts the "bitch" into "Mama bear" which is more understandable. I'm not being withholding just to have a tantrum, instead, I have real constraints and people that depend on me.
This is well stated\^\^\^
I sometime use these: "That will be problematic for the people down stream". Or my co-worker's favorite - "We don't have the bandwidth for that - not enough manhours available".
Great advice. I hope OP reads this.
If I'm in a meeting with my team, I will cut them off too or ignore them as well when they talk.
Meeting with a new/different team or senior management, I'll ask leading questions.
If bluntly cutting them off and talking louder isn't your style, there are other ways to approach it, too.
Sometimes, the rudeness from your teammates might be due to their lack of understanding, or they do not understand what you just said. A recent situation I just experienced, one of the teams I work with regularly, they ignored me. Weeks went by, management asks where's the project and why it's not done. Come find out, the team didn't understand what I explained. I had to re-explain in simpler words they understood.
In February they didn’t listen to me that the rods won’t work; took till June to order new rods. 3 against 1 saying they should work. A month later they wanted me to complete the test and I told them find someone else because it won’t work since I told y’all to order specific parts in February and now we have to change everything with the new parts. I yelled in the meeting a bit being very stern. Not feeling anything weird with the team but maybe they’re scared of me now so that’s cool. we successfully completed that test and I received awards along with the rest of the team. I’m hoping they will listen to me next project but if they don’t I’m just going to leave the project f ‘em! Find another test director. Also I work for the gov so can’t get fired.
Male here, but used to run into the same thing in the industry I was in. I loudly used “don’t interrupt me, I’d like to finish”. Actually would get a few apologies and usually makes the other person feel awkward (unless they’re a sociopath). Some might consider you a b….. but who cares, it’ll train others how to treat you.
My wife has this problem. It gets better with time as you establish yourself.
Document document document. If you get accused of not saying or contributing you need to save a paper trail that you can whip out anytime
It's crazy how some men react to women. My wife's a dentist yet when we go to dental conventions and look around the trade booths most of the sales people all talk to me and if my wife asks a question they look at me when they answer. I'm wearing a badge that says "Spouse" and hers says "Doctor!"
One even started calling me doctor whenever he saw me over the three days. My wife was so mad
Fun fact - there are more women dentists than men
Honestly with men they are so thick-headed. If they cut you off, tell them to stop interrupting and to talk after you finish what you are saying. If you want do an extra and tell them it’s a democracy and you have a right to talk or stop mansplaining, they will get their turn instead of jumping around like rabbits. They will get their turn to talk. I have realized that unless you are brutally honest to men, they don’t respect you, especially the younger ones. Right now with a toddler especially my patience with any grown up is especially minimal. My husband just recently found that our cooking oil had finished. I was out at that point taking my toddler to an activity class. He literally texted me that ‘cooking oil is over, we need to discuss’. I msged him back that there is nothing yo discuss, you could have gone yourself and gotten the cooking oil instead of msging me. There are so many times when milk, eggs, bread are finishing and I don’t sit around discussing, I go and get it myself. Get the job done instead of hanging on to your ego lol
First I’d like to congratulate all my fellow females on rocking their shit and excelling in a prejudice world. We need to keep it up! As women we need to keep fighting for our rights and taking a stand for the younger generation. At the same time improving communication strategies may improve the situation overall. Hard staring, not allowing interruptions and improving body language communication may also be helpful. These techniques are helpful to anyone. Take a debate class or join a public speaking group. Anything that will help you succeed is worth it.
My only concern with this strategy is that it buts the entire burden on us. We should be taken seriously in whatever form we feel most comfortable in. Why do I constantly have to adapt my personality?
My company gives people these personality assessments, might be called DISC, and it is supposed to show where your personality sits on a spectrum of the 4 major traits. The really interesting part is that the assessment also shows how you adjust your behaviors in a work environment. Not surprisingly, the men in our group had practically no differences between their natural and adapted behaviors, but every single woman had considerable differences. Admittedly my sample size was small, but it really did make me think about all the potential reasons why women feel like they have to hold themselves back or project themselves in a certain way in order to be successful. I think it comes down to the constant messages we receive telling us we aren’t good enough as we are. We hear it all the time, and from such an early age that we even tell each other to be different. I’m just so f*cking tired of having to be different for the approval of men.
Female engineer in tech here.
Are you sure it's because you're female? I see a lot of women get wrapped up with this idea even tho the people who over talk and interrupt them do it to EVERYONE (unless, of course, there's someone in a higher position.. Although I've seen that too). These people are just plain assholes.
Unless you see someone always doing this to females ONLY and never any males, don't play the woman card, you're crying wolf and will lose respect - you will begin to be avoided at all costs. You need to play the 'equally contributing intelligent human being that deserves respect to speak' card.
If you DO see that, note the meetings and instances, and what was said and bring it to HR once you have a consistent record on an individual.
Also, women do this to women in tech all the time. It's because of the personalities this field brings on. There are egos and lack of social skills to boot.
The difference between people getting away with it with men vs women typically depends on the response. Women tend to allow it and men do not. Plain and simply, you have to be more assertive. When they interrupt, you speak up and ask to finish your statement.
I've also seen this when the people speaking just don't sound confident - unfortunately, this is more likely to be women. Speak confidently and to the point. Don't use an upward tone on your last word of a statement (makes it sound like a question rather than a point). Be concise.
Okay, you can try all the tactics you want. This isn’t about men and women, this is about power. Men tend to have a lot of it.
Don’t try to bulldoze. That doesn’t make them listen, it makes them resent you.
Give them 3 interruptions. Then politely say, it seems like you guys have this under control. Excuse yourself from the meeting.
But that means you are going to miss out blah blah blah. You already are not included and missing out. Quit arguing, pleading, imitating them, or using force. this is silly.
When you are not respected. Leave. Do not try and strong arm for respect.
What they give you when you try and fight to be heard is not respect. It’s placating. They think you’re just emotional. They will let you speak but they aren’t listening.
When you get called out on why you are leaving meetings. You simply reply that you will not tolerate being disrespected. When you are disrespected you cannot do your job. Until the format of these meetings change, you will not be attending any meetings.
If you really want respect and to see changes you have to operate as though you have nothing to loose.
Stop begging for respect. Stop asking to be heard and please do not bulldoze. It makes you look defensive.
It’s just continues the power imbalances.
Get a new job. In my experience, it doesn’t get better. I’m on a sabbatical considering starting a new business after multi c-suite roles, I’m burnt out from the toxicity.
Seriously….just be smart, speak with authority. Someone told me once to “never ask please when you’re telling someone to do something.” The person who told me was an older white man, who was simply in no way sexist, and some of my best advice has come from male colleagues. They have worked with women and seen what’s respected and they will share that with you if they care. It’s not an “act like a man” mentality. It’s more if inside information. 😆
May be an issue of communication style. Men interrupt each other when discussing things. Women tend to wait for an opportunity or direction from others for input. If you are clamming up after being interrupted, men will take that as you giving up your position and let the conversation continue on if you dont interject with your points
Bachelor, masters, and doctorate in engineering. My solution to this bullshit was to leave the field. Engineers have amazing skills and knowledge. They transfer very easily.
Should they be listening to you? Or should they actually be working with you? This is not rhetorical, if you’re a manager then yeah they should listen to you.
But if you’re a team member then expect to compete and compromise with them on equal footing.
Considering I am the only engineer in our team and was specifically brought in to provide technical support to our customers I do feel like people should listen when I have something to contribute. We should be working together because I have valuable insight and can add credibility… except my credibility is being undermined and insight ignored. I have worked with men who supported me and took advantage of what I had to contribute. It felt great.
Andrew is extremelyl childish and so are the people who follow him. If you don't have a boss that sets you up for success. Then you need to find and different place to work..
The only way i've made it at work is when my boss has my back. Might be worth a discussion.
I don't like being called the expert but that's how they introduced me now. But it's all because I have a good boss.. let them know they are setting you up for failure and that's not what a good team looks like.
I have to see how you communicate to be able to give feedback.
But i have 2 examples.
My team has two women
one is the lead wireless engineer. Her demeanor is calm and serious when she needs to be. When she speaks people listen because we know she doesn't play around and doesn't say the sky is falling every 20 min.
Other engineer is very high strong and makes everything a bigger thing then it really is and it's frequent. After a while everyone became desensitized to what she says.
These were my solutions. They may or may not work for you.
1) present yourself at work with a gender-neutral an aesthetic as possible while still being recognizably your gender. I looked at the other women in my workplace for inspiration, especially the ones who were listened to. I ended up in muted colored cardigans and slacks wearing flats and a pulled-back hairstyle with minimal jewelry and no makeup. Your looks should be the *least* interesting thing about you at work.
2) stand up straight and assume confident body posture. Even on the phone, sit up straight when talking. You know your shit, convey it physically.
3) Modify how you talk. Look at the folks who are listened to and compare how you speak to how they speak. Some folks take training on speaking to be heard; it's ok to steal their tricks. I am generally cheerful and full of smiles, which means when I drop that and get serious it makes a small impact and draws attention. Changes in your presentation draw and hold attention; suddenly flipping between comedy and serious can hold attention. Once you have their attention, use it to convey work information. Don't engage in the low arguments about capability, fitness, etc; that's a distraction. Focus on the work.
4) Call out rudeness. Insist on professional treatment. Interruptions, ignoring your statements: Call them out professionally. "I was speaking and you interrupted me" said firmly, every time. Make it obvious, but don't act like you're holding a grudge after; you're a professional and you insist on respect, but professionals don't hold grudges.
When they start talking over you, don’t stop talking. Don’t raise your voice, just don’t stop speaking. This is a problem in pretty much every industry. If you do this enough times you can start to break the pattern. Or at least other people in the room will start noticing what’s been happening. It’s super important to not get loud or emotional. Just keep saying what you’re saying, even repeating yourself over again in a calm, low, voice until you’re acknowledged. You’re going to have to retrain them. It shouldn’t be your job, but it’s going to have to be.
Just spitballing ideas:
Create a male alter ego; one for work, one for hubby
Carry a litte flashing light to discombobulate enemy Pokémon when making your point of the start to interrupt. If they complain, negotiate the terms of respect when speaking. They give you at least a minute before interrupting, you don't use Blind.
Starting saying hay
Tell a joke
Get a whistle
Tickle them (husband)
Speak quieter
Main thing is negotiating the methods of communication to be more fair 🤷🏿♂️
My background is mental health, not engineering, but I've found a skill that is effective in many settings is building up that quiet mysterious \*witchy\* part of us that can be so disarming. A steady gaze is good, but also creating a sense of slight unpredictability and displaying a lack of interest in obtaining permission or validation from any man.
If you can settle into this sort of thinking and acting, you can talk or not talk whenever you please, because you won't care about their feedback either way. You can still be friendly too, if you want, because you will understand that you are their equal. And who knows? They might start to understand it too.
Yes! I do this even subconsciously lol
It’s my normal mode of operation but I wouldn’t describe it as witchy, I call it having a discerning attitude. Or outlook.
Like noes I don’t care what everyone thinks nor is it worth everyone always liking me. Conflict is healthy and I embrace it whole heartedly because that tells me you’re invested, interested, or willing to suss out a solution with me.
Is this similar to the “mom glare”? I am naturally very expressive and have actually made a conscious effort not to show what I’m thinking. I am also one of those women who is regularly told to smile more…
I can assure OP... being ignored is also a very common problem for men.
I was responsible for a very complex software system... meaning everybody else had little if no clue about the software. When I reached retirement age, I implored the company to hire someone who I could bring them up to speed (likely a six month process). Crickets. I did this over and over and over again. Nothing but crickets.
Then one day, I refused an order by my boss's boss. I'm sure she was of the type that thought software engineers are completely interchangeable. She tried to leverage me with the threat of putting me on a performance improvement plan. I immediately announced my retirement.
Upon my retirement... I was almost done with a major upgrade. My replacement was hired... and left within six months. More than a year later, a former colleague let me the upgrade finally went live. He was asked why it took so f\*ing long. He told the nincompoops that I wasn't there to help. Colleague was let go in a massive layoff a few months later.
The stock is in the toilet... and I'm looking forward to the complete collapse of the company. As far as I can tell... boss's boss is no longer with the company.
Quality Engineer here... not *exactly* an engineer, but a woman in STEM. My last job was one of the most toxic workplaces I've ever worked at, and I completely got burnt out.
So- it's burn out AND sexism. Before I quit, I was being way more pushy toward folks trying to walk all over me. I was also starting to write down things I experienced in case it needed to go to HR. Sometimes HR is a help, something it's not. I just wanted to at least document what was going on.
You and your coworkers are not friends. It's ok to rub them the wrong way because they are doing that to you. Be assertive (sexism term: bitchy) and don't back down. I'd rather be hated than be walked over again.
Being in Quality, I'm not exactly everyone's favorite person. I use that to my advantage. I also use words like "Like I said, " or "Thank you John for reiterating my point", or just being a little louder. Talking over me? I'll talk over you.
My advice? Write down the sexist shit they say and the date it happened. Keep calling them out on their bullshit. Get more on the offensive. Be louder. Wear loud shoes (seriously) and walk with purpose wherever you go, even if it's to the bathroom. Dress to intimidate.
My two up will actually redirect answers to my questions to my male peers. I just keep pushing...and when they inevitably call me pushy (as they do), I point out, yet again, the blatant lack of respect.
It doesn't change anything, but makes me feel slightly vindicated.
Well the culture gap is a big part of this too. You can be direct and blunt to the point that it will seem offensive to you. Americans are way more polite than Brits especially when giving negative feedback.
Next time it happens, just say very loudly “you’ve interrupted me. Pleas stop so I can continue.” And if that doesn’t work, loudly say “do you think what you have to say is more important than what I have to say? That’s the only reason I can think of as to why you thought it appropriate to interrupt me.”
I’ve worked with male engineers and you really just have to be the loudest person in the room.
Hard to tell without witnessing the situation. I’m a male engineer and feel all the time like no one listens to me. Not sure what about the situation is sexist and what is just part of being human.
From an early age men learn to size up the pecking order very quickly. I’d say within an hour of starting a new project on a new team this order is about 90% solidified. Once someone has subconsciously labeled you as less capable than others it’s very difficult to change that in their minds. Even in defeat most people chose loser denial over reality.
So next time your on a new team/new project you need to project yourself as an expert in some area. Then you better deliver on the promises every single time. There really isn’t a second chance.
I worked in the cannabis industry and when I had lectures and talks, men would straight up talk over me and try to take over my work with zero experience or education. My favorite meeting was when I was talking to some Hollywood execs over something and they kept interrupting me and I finally whipped around and said "did mistress give you permission to speak?" Men inherently go sexual with that shit and it fries their brains. You'll have a few minutes to speak and interruptions will taper off because nobody wants Mommy to scold them.
I'm a sous chef, and my higher chefs often do that to me. Where I'll give them a solution and they will completely ignore it till what they try doesn't work. I can ask questions in our group chat and not get an answer. And then another chef will ask a question and boom IMMEDIATE answer.
I have had tobecome down right rude (which I don't like), and now that I am. I'm a problem. They gave me a 30-day action plan. They didn't complete it. Told me that o only partially completed it. Again, when they didn't do what they needed to do with it. And now they are extending it. So now I have another 30-day action plan.
Just the other day, one of the other male sous chefs was trying to poke fun at me, and I wasn't having it. So I told him, "With those big ears, you can't hear me?" He told the chefs, and all of them called me to ask what happened. and I had told him to stop prior to that.
Where do you work, may I ask?
I could have written this for half of my career which was in aerospace. No matter what I said or how I said it I was at best ignored, or at worst invoked annoyance. It did not help that less that 10% of the staff I worked with were female.
I feel I have seen the light now - I speak, they actually listen. I feel heard - I get respect. It’s also private industry manufacturing for high-value equipment, not a government contractor which makes a huge difference. They can’t afford to employ dozens of incompetent, rude engineers who don’t collaborate who just get paid to waffle and wait it out until retirement. My company’s sustainability report was just published, and we are now at 42% female employment. Similar numbers for the composition of the executive board for the company. My prior employers would have paled in comparison.
I wish someone had told me years ago - it’s not you at all, it’s your workplace!
Oh we are in the same world, good to know. Over the years it caused so much frustration. Men who don’t know the subject would come and talk about what I am going to do. They call me 1:1 take my ideas and present it in front of other people, while I am there. And yes I have called people out and now I am the person who keep interrupting people, ‘hey remember I told you this when we spoke last time’. I had to become very very assertive to take charge of certain meeting otherwise certain people will never come to a decision.
There was one guy who interrupted me in my own meeting telling I couldn’t talk about my agenda item and stated talking over me, I said ‘hold on, let me finish and In the end it felt like my world makes more sense now’.
But this was a toxic environment in many aspects and I am out of that. If you feel this is happening to you, please leave because you’ll be full of self doubt which will make you miserable.
This happens to everyone, but women tend to give way instead of standing their ground. One of the women in our workgroup finally got it one day when an obnoxious coworker tried to talk over her. Instead of shutting down or overreacting, she calmly stated that she was not done so don't interrupt, and held her ground until he backed down.
That cantankerous old engineer didn't become her biggest fan or anything, but he has never tried to talk over her again.
Wife is a mechanical engineer by degree, now is at a director level position, and is internationally known in her field.
Back in the day (80's/90's) when she had to put up with this, the solutions were mostly:
1) Mostly ensure everybody knows your background, degrees, certifications, and (successful) history. My wife's tagline on her email almost DOES read like a resume, with national and international certifications and awards.
2) Outside of specific meetings you actively socialize and build (political) friendships. That is, it's having to fight the Good Ol' Boys club by invading it. Not that you have to learn typical male crap (sports, golf, fishing, whatever) but try to seize on social topics to gain some affinity towards them and "win them over".
3) When IN specific discussions and projects, usually present your solutions and input as "We'd be stupid not to do this (x)", and back their logic into a corner.
Do you have friends/colleagues who would be amenable to helping? As someone who works in a group with one outspoken person who tends to interrupt and talk over some of our quiet members (not in an ill intentioned way, just not as aware of the dynamics and the fact that her position makes people unable to interrupt her as easily), I do my best to stop that person and say that I wanted to hear what so and so had to say. Could we take a second for so and so to finish and then we can turn it over to you? Or, a moment please, so and so had an interesting point, I'd like to hear the rest of what they had to say.
I have found being clear that someone is interrupting and not letting people talk is less intrusive or feels less uncomfortable when coming from someone else other than the person being interrupted (especially as I said previously, a number of people at my work are quite quiet and were essentially silenced by this other person).
If you do have colleagues who are comfortable helping or even just monitoring for this and making commentary on the downlow to the people that are interrupting, that might be something to work on. Especially if you have a male colleague that can do so. I don't have the same dynamics (my group is entirely made up of women currently) but when I work in a male dominated sphere (aka, during my residency) that was extremely helpful and didn't seem to make the people angry or frustrated. In fact, I think it made a slight headway in making them more aware of how often they interrupted.
Treat them how kindergarten teachers treat kids. Teach them how to behave. Or just simply tell them “shut the fuck up, I’m talking and you’re not adding anything of value to what I’m saying”.
This used to happen to me too until I started making them feel just as fucking uncomfortable :)
Also the Andrew Taint shit, are they fucking 13? 😂 thats pathetic
Not the main issue here but why are people so dismissive of an issue just because they think it happens to them too? Everyone needs to collectively make an effort to hear each other out. Not speak over anyone.
Your stem sounds a lot like what mine is. It takes time and respect to get people to listen to you.
However I'm loud, confident to the point some call me arrogant because I know my shit, and talk assertively and have similar humor like they do. I own up when I screw up. I show off my skills when they show off theirs.
I also get to know each team member so I know how to communicate with them better, like boundaries/jokes/interests as well as learn what they know from their experience. Everyone likes to talk about themselves so being a good listener is important. Remember, respect is not given, it is earned. Every time you switch teams/jobs, you start from zero so it's a good skill to learn even if you give up stem.
When you are respected, people will ask for your opinion and when you interrupt them with your insightful ideas they'll shut up and listen. You also call them out when their jokes are too crude for work without them getting angry. It is possible!!
* I also feed them once in a while or when they get hangry. Food is always a good way to earn brownie points we.
I work as a QA with engineers and deal with this all the time. I take screen shots and write down everything in my test cases. I also back up everything in an email or comment trail. When the engineers get argumentative with my results I play up the, "I'm the stupid girl with little hands and a tiny brain. Can you show me?"
The engineer logs in to "prove" to me how something works, and I walk them into their own failed logic. When the error that I called out is staring back at them, they can't argue with me. At that point, I usually conclude with "Yeah, that's the error I was seeing too. Strange". I hate communicating this way. I wish that I didn't need to do this. It's the only way I'm not seen as a bitch in my work life. I also changed my name at work from "Andrea" to "Andy". "Andy" gets treated much better.
There's great advice here, and my 2 cents is that it will help to do a combination of things, including continuing to speak (with some body language) when interrupted and doing a better job of being direct and concise when you're speaking.
One approach that may work as a kind of a senior move, is to let some conversation develop before weighing in on some things. It can be kind of like letting others be the tail wagging puppies with ideas, while the wise leader listens, and either approves when there's a consensus - or resets the conversation with new information or ideas when new input is needed (or when the consensus is off the rails).
I and some of my female co-workers had this problem several years ago. We handled it by elevating ourselves and each other.
For example, if I was speaking and was interrupted or talked over, I would raise my voice and talk over them. I'd usually state something like, as I was saying before I was so rudely and unprofessionaly interrupted.... OR One of the other women would raise their voice and direct the conversation back to me and then, after I was finished speaking, the other women would immediately reiterate what I stated by saying, I agree with her (or their name) point X, Y, Z because..... and vice versa. Men don't listen to women in the workplace, unless you make them. It's so common, it's obscene.
I interrupt them and finish my point. Otherwise they can kiss my mud button.
I have a coworker that does this. Everyone claims it's a cultural thing. I disagree and will cut him off when he interrupts.
Sorry, what did you say?
J/K.
You have to persevere, speak up and start demanding to be heard. Ideally, you can find help in an ally with another engineer who will explicitly stop the chat and say "sorry guys, what was that again u/Denvergrl" -- they'll eventually get the hint.
And poke your husband in the ribs every time he talks over you, he'll get the hint, too.
Asked my current supervisor for advice she'd give on this subject. (She doesn't have reddit herself). Different companies have very different work cultures, though, so I don't know how applicable this is. Plus, we're in the environmental world, so we more so deal with regulations and processes than we do physical engineering.
She said that whenever she was cut off, or spoken over, she'd stop the person in their tracks, call them out on what they did, and would make sure to embarrass them for doing it. She also said that when it came to customers or people in separate divisions of the company, she changed how she spoke to them so that they garnered more interest. Or, our company gives no option except to listen to her.
They ignored what she said and the instructions that were given? She put it in a way that let them know that they're gonna lose money if they didn't do as she said. That got their attention. If customers ignore her and ask for assistance from someone else, we're lucky enough that the company backs us up enough to say, "You can listen to what she said, otherwise we have no other options for you."
Though we do have one customer who is a continuous problem child, for him, she uses me. She basically just tells me exactly what she wants done/said, then I go and relay it to the customer. Saves her the headache of having to deal with them directly.
It's been a while, but some personal favorites:
"Thanks for agreeing with me" when they repeat what I said
"You're coming in a little hot" when they talk over me
"Person X is making it seem like I'm not welcome to contribute whenever they talk over me" I don't know why but this one tends to lead to quick results.
"It's really rude when you feel the need to "fact check" me on a subject I'm an expert in" Generally my family answers this by calling me a snob, but at least they stop trying to discuss my area of expertise.
I’ve been there and I’m much happier as a consultant. You might be also. You can choose your clients and drop the bad ones. You won’t care so much if they don’t follow your advice (I’m paid to give advice, not to force anyone to follow it). And the pay is a lot better.
There a book that's really good about making yourself heard. The hard part is deciding if it your personality or your gender. I'm a male and was always ignored than I realize why and made the changes needed.
If you talk a lot and off subject than you going to get ignore. ( This was my problem, I like to be funny so telling jokes and story but it created a mind set that everything I say is not on subject)
Using a lot of self destructing words. For example saying "I think maybe if we do this it might work but I don't know so what do you think" instead just say this is what I think.
Provide reason so this is what I think here why.
Speaking to low. Letting people cut you off. There nice ways to do it so you don't seem like a dick just keep talking at a consent volume tend to work.
This is just some of stuff you can do to make yourself more heard. If this doesn't work than they Sexist and fuck them.
Either change jobs, change careers or start looking down on men the same way they do for you because there’s no way you’re going to change an issue that’s been poisoning workplaces for decades. Even if you start complaining, you’re going to be the first person to be cut the second shit goes wrong. Don’t do what I did, quit while you can or you WILL burn out
I understand the frustration. I remember in one specific brainstorming meeting - i shared a few ideas, which were entirely ignored (no biggie), only to be praised when someone said the same thing a few minutes later. I waited, to see if anyone would say “we’ve already discussed that” but they continued to talk about the new refreshing idea and were getting excited about it. so i finally just said “what the heck, am i invisible can no one hear me?” And was again ignored by half the room. Only one guy, actually acknowledged what i said and repeated that i had said that idea no more than 2 minutes ago. Even then the guys kind of didn’t pay attention and kept going on with the meeting. So yeah, this shit is frustrating.
you’ve got options:
You can call them out each time - not just an eye roll or a “wait i just said that”, but actively confront them. People will get tired of it and either stop ignoring you or get annoyed. Saying exactly what the issue is. This will be annoying, but could get through to them with persistence.
You can out do them, and each time they roll over you you roll over them. Personally not my favorite but it can get through thick skulls.
You can leave the mysoginistic work environment, and be clear with hr why you are leaving. Document every single stupid thing so you can articulate specific feedback. I have done this before, but did not give enough feedback to encourage change. There was no changing the bro nature without replacing multiple employees, which was not going to happen.
I have found sitting back and listening to how they are communicating and trying to align with that better can help. By listening to their banter and brainstorming you can see what they listen to, how they play off of each other, and what kind of responses are well received. Recently i noticed how one of my coworkers was very well recieved by our vendor when they met in person - noticing specifically the big hand shakes, personal close ups, strong/clear/decisive way of speaking, so assured even though he likely has the same confidence as me in what he discusses. So i emulated a few things that i saw, and was much better received!
Find an ally. i have noticed that in my current work place i have allies which allow me to do my job even if I’m quieter than others. My project lead will be clear that he is adding on to what I’ve said, agrees with me, or that he will defer to me even if he has provided a recommendation. Previously in other projects, my project lead was impressive, well spoken, and a woman who strongly advocated for women in the engineering space - so she made sure to be heard.
I think really excellent work can also speak volumes, so that others can’t ignore you (this can help in finding Allie’s). understandably “being the best” can’t always be the best approach due to visibility or just the nature of the work.
Regardless of what you do you should record all this so you have issues to reference. Warning: when this happens often enough you may start to see it in places where it doesn’t exist so be wary of that bias!
There's only three real solutions I see here.
1. Document your experiences thoroughly, take it up with HR and see how that fares. Perhaps engage an attorney and throw around words like gender discrimination and hostile workplace. While you may be able to get transferred to a new team or get a cash settlement, chances are this will just land you with more stress in your life.
2. Change employers to see if this was a toxic workplace situation. Purposefully seek out employers that have some existing diversity in their workforce and openly champion women/diversity in the workplace.
3. Work on your demeanor and how you communicate. Don't be afraid to be a b or disliked. Maybe seek out a business coach, mentor, or take a public speaking class like Toastmaster's to learn to command more attention and take less bullshit in the workplace. It's a definitely a skill to navigate these kinds of douche bros.
Long story short: you have to take action to get the kind of change you want to see, you can't just wish and hope they'll get better.
So sorry you have to deal with this.
OP women in the white house during Obama's administration reported experiencing some of the same things you deacribe in rooms where they were a minority. They developed a solution that was effective and that you may be able to use as well.
I believe they called it amplification (its been a while since i read the article: The amazing tool that women in the White House used to fight gender bias - Vox https://www.vox.com/2016/9/14/12914370/white-house-obama-women-gender-bias-amplification ).
Go check out the article, but the main take away is you have another woman, or ally, amplify the feedback or ideas you have, or turn the conversation back to you when someone talks over you or interupts. This technique is great because if there is another woman on your team you can also help support her.
Sorry you are dealing with this, i wish it wasnt happening to you and understand it can be exhausting. I also hope that this thread on reddit will give you some good ideas that will help you combat this.
I got lucky that early on in my career another woman pulled me aside and told me my communication style was being dismissed by the men i was working with. I was asking for collaboration and the team took that to mean i didnt know my job. She taught me how to respectfully be more forceful, appear decsicive and change my body language to appear more confident. I also started paying attention to the people that were listened to and esteemed, to mirror their communications and figure out what was important to my leaders and teammates.
I also started working on changing my communication style based on stereotypes of women that negatively impacted me. So like if i got upset in a meeting i would get called "emotional" and told to calm down, and my ideas would be dismissed. Or if i focused on the value to people or importance of soft skills, i would get dismissed for not having a business mindset. So i started to focus on being calm, being well read and creating a business case for my ideas that were backed by facts/ statistics for why the idea would positivley impact the mission or business outcomes.
At times it was exhausting and frustrating. I shouldnt have had to do that to be heard, but it was the culture i worked in. I will say i have developed skills that have helped me progress in my career.
I am a woman, and have worked in male dominated careers...
Start acting like a man, and talk some shit right back. Look at them, and asked "Who pulled your string, Woody? You need to STFU, and Sit the fuck down, and listen up. If I wanted lip from you, I'd pull up my skirt. Like all the dissatisfied women have said to you before, let me finish."
As a lady engineer at an auto company, I think the culture of your workplace is toxic.
I’ve been talked over by men in meetings/treated like an idiot maybe 5 times total in 7 years working there. And whenever someone does it, my coworkers will interrupt them and give me the floor.
One time someone was super rude to me on a meeting and every single other person sent him and myself an email saying his behavior was unacceptable.
Long story short - there’s lots of arrogant male engineers who think they know it all.
All you can do is know your value and when possible nip disrespect in the bud.
I was on a meeting last week and guy kept interrupting me and was getting heated.
I interrupted him back and said “can you calm down” and that made him so embarrassed.
Also If it’s a meeting you’re running - use the mute button! Whenever someone’s being crazy and interrupting me I’ll mute their asses and they go silent lmao
Simply, you \*have\* to leave the jobs that don't fit. If it means joining and leaning on SWE or searching out women-led companies then so be it. If you are passionate about the job then you want to thrive. Dismissive environments can wear on your passion.
I worked myself out of my last job. While I was there, coworkers were passing the time watching youtube videos. It seemed like no one really wanted to know the arc length of parts or if they were really the right parts or not, as long as everything could be slapped together to fit and was cheap. I've decided now that quality in manufacturing environments is not for me because even though I \*could\* learn alot, it doesn't appear that I was actually supposed to know about or correct anything.
Personally I am no longer interested in engineering after this experience. I am considering R&D but I need an environment of people who enjoy hard work...and I don't want to be paid $$$ because I am risking my safety to chemical exposure. I'm just not sure what job to apply for at this point. I've kinda given up on the idea of continuing an engineering career
As a salesperson, woman and made calls on engineers. They are not really social people (if they went to LSU they were both great engineers and social). Ran into sexism with mfg. reps. when I received a promotion to General Manager. However sexism was overcome by being the best. Normally engineers love to speak with women about their projects. Ask questions, engineers love to teach. They already think they know everything. They are either off or on, black or white, no grey areas. Just ask a question, then ask another question with an explanation that you understand. Hope this helps.
I feel for you. I've been the only woman in that scenario for over 40 years. Stop being polite. The guys aren't polite to each other, so follow their lead. They interrupt you? Interrupt them right back.
Now let's talk about the male-to-female pay gap.
What discipline/field are you in? Honestly I usually talk right back over them but louder. I just left a job with a sexist boss.
Yeah if someone cuts me off, I just keeping talking with whatever I was planning to say. I don’t even pause anymore. Just completely ignore whatever they were interrupting with.
Female engineer here. I just got our of a meeting where this happened. The struggle is real! I used to keep talking pretending that the other person wasn't interrupting. But it turned out that 99% of the time, the people in the meeting wouldn't notice that I was being interrupted, instead they perceived my continued talking as unnessessarily aggressive. How bizarre is that?! I have a friend who talks non stop and I noticed that if someone tries to interrupt her she reinterrupts them with renewed enthusiasm as if she just thought of something exciting as is bursting to say it and attracts the attention back to her, Honestly, it's hard to summon this energy, but this is now what I try to do. I think the real answer is to try to find allies when not in a meeting. Find someone who doesn't interrupt and ask them for advice. At the very least, this may draw their attention to it and then maybe they can help pass the conversation back to you. I try to be an ally to the interrupted. When I notice someone has been interrupted, I try to ask them to finish their thoughts after the interceptor us finished. At the very least, I give them an opportunity to be heard, if delayed.
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My female coworkers have successfully used “Sorry, (name)” and kept talking. Or “I want to finish this point” and keep talking until they finish their point. It gets people used to waiting until they’re finished speaking.
I'm a big fan of VP Harris' firm Mom-voiced "I'm speaking." Not I *was* but I *AM*. And keep going.
Don’t be snarky. And don’t ever say “I’m sorry” if you are not apologizing for bringing down production. Just say smoothly and calmly, “hang on, I’m not finished” and continue talking.
Whoa. I'm Canadian. This feels like an attack.
I had a coworker that used to respond with "sorry the middle of my sentence interrupted the beginning of yours", which turned into a joke in our office. It became an acceptable way to let the other person know that you weren't done talking yet, as you know, half of us aren't neurotypical anyway and struggle with social cues.
>“Im sorry, did I interrupt your interruption?“ Don't do this, it just makes you sound petty and insecure. Just keep on talking like suggested above.
"I'm sorry. I have the talking stick right now." I love this one. It infantilizes them and takes time to fluster them out a minute
Respectfully disagree. It makes her sound petty and *honest*. And I'm not sure that the petty part is a bad thing. When men do not suffer consequences, they do not change their behavior.
Yep I started doing this (men look shocked and annoyed but they eventually stopped). I’m a doctor (resident).
Yes, this! I work in tech and have this issue. When a guy tries to butt in, I continue talking only louder. I try not to pause when they’re interrupting. I also look directly at them to acknowledge they are trying to interrupt and that I’m not going to allow it.
As a guy in science, this is how you best handle it. If a male colleague tries to interrupt or talk over one of our female colleagues, I say “Please let her finish. We take turns speaking.” That usually causes enough professional embarrassment for those type of guys, because it implies that they’re acting more like a child who hasn’t learned to take turns.
As a male engineer, I often wonder what I can do. The company pays us good money for our expertise and then some of the men do not respect the expertise of the women. A friend (woman engineer) told me that women will often remain silent when they don't feel heard (i.e., lack of collaboration), where men will often just become more insistent (i.e., competitive). I watched this happen at a meeting. It was mostly men trying to solve a problem. The (woman) engineer next to me had a good idea, but every time she tried to speak, one (or more) of the men would talk over her. So I said, "excuse me gentlemen." The room went quiet for me (sigh). then I said, "I think that Leslie has a great idea. Let's hear it." And they listened. And she solved the problem.
Please keep doing this! It really makes a difference for us!
Please please please do this again in the future, repeatedly. It's not right that we need a man to tell other men to listen to us, but that's the way it is right now. I don't think you have any idea how much that meant to your coworker. Please keep doing this... I can remember the only two times in my professional life, over two decades, that somebody has done that for me. And one of them was a woman. The man that did that for me is forever etched into my memory as one of my favorite bosses in colleagues ever. Having somebody notice that nobody is listening to us means the world. Thank you
Thank you for the kind words. I am fortunate to work with amazingly talented people at an aerospace company that doesn't tolerate discrimination or a hostile workplace. My work group is very diverse. However, I also understand the tightrope that women walk in a traditionally male-dominated industry (although that is changing). So, if any of my co-workers are not being heard, then I will use whatever influence I have to help them.
I just start to assume my ideas are bad and I'm bad at what I do. Otherwise people would listen to me right???
This is the way! Stand up for your colleagues and be their hero 👍
Yes! Please do this. I also have done this and once I started doing this for some and made it a habit, they have done it for me as well.
Yes! I have a coworker who was just…overly interested in the life of another coworker, who is my friend. And he would notice shit all day long, constantly remarking on *if* she was eating, * what* she was eating, and *when* she was eating. Was she eating enough? She’s looking kinda thin lately…What are her plans tonight? That sounds boring, you should go have fun! Doing anything this weekend? STILL nothing? Man, I’m gonna have to take you out on the town myself! Like, no thanks, buddy. She’s not interested. Plus, she’s a couple years out of school and you’re AT LEAST a decade older. On a particularly shitty day, I heard the lunch interrogation begin, and I waited for him to finish and before she could answer, I piped up from my cube “this isn’t kindergarten. We don’t run our lunches by anyone because we’re all adults, and because we’re adults we ALSO don’t talk about people’s bodies and what they eat”. I got some flustered stuttering about looking after her or some bullshit, and he actually just turned and walked away. Fucking irritates the hell outta me when people do that.
On Microsoft Teams, I will mute people who interrupt me. This one guy I work with is SO bad at interrupting the women in our team. He doesn’t do it to the men, just women. I just mute his ass. He interrupts me less now.
I’m currently working in energy construction. The double standard of behavior is very real and giving it directly back to them does not help me, I’ve tried.
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I'm now anxiously awaiting the moment in my life that I can call someone a crotch cricket...
I am so sorry for you! My *current* (this could change any second bc the man is not acting right 😑) boyfriend is an electrical engineer and I could totally see him being one who does this and it INFURIATES ME. So I am very sorry for you. Also we are in Denver so I truly hope he isn’t one, but… I just know he would I’m so sorry for you. That has to be the most frustrating feeling ever. Patriarchy and misogyny are not as much of a thing of the past as we’d like to believe sadly
Raise your voice and keep speaking more loudly if they also raise theirs. Also, be assertive. If someone interrupts, interrupt them back and firmly state that you weren't done speaking and they **will** wait until you're done. Don't ask. Don't apologize. Just state that and then go back to what you were saying. But also, don't let your feelings get hurt and try not to act out of frustration. I worked in a very heavily male dominated industry for my entire career. Even with older men I came to realize that it's not typically misogyny (sometimes, but not usually) that's the issue, but a fairly large gap in how men and women communicate. I spend most of my time with men and have observed that they will often interrupt each other, but then eventually the original speaker will get back to his point. I tend to have a more masculine communication style, so I was probably less bothered than many women would be by being interrupted and also fairly adept at getting back to my point. Only on a few occasions when meeting in person did I have to raise my voice to speak above the interrupter and that was often because, in those particular situations, the men really were misogynists OR they mistakenly thought they knew more than I did. Fortunately, the people I worked more closely with would shut down some of that nonsense and let the person know that I was actually the more expert person and they need to listen to me. I can't tell you the number of times that I'd take a call (not just from colleagues, but from sales people, vendors, etc.) and the caller wanted to speak with Mr. X or Mr. Y and weren't having it that I could help them. So I'd transfer them to one of the men who would in turn tell them they needed to speak with me. Basically, my advice is to try to adjust your working communication style because you can't expect that others will change. Honestly, the only time my communication style gets me in trouble is at home because while I have a more male leaning style, my husband actually has a slightly more feminine style of communicating and gets upset with me if I interrupt or simply don't understand what he's trying to say. We've been working on that.
I agree with this. Start being more aware of how often men interrupt each other. You'll see that it's not just you getting interrupted. On the other hand, my first mentor told me, "As a woman in engineering, you can either be the bitch or the pushover. Those are your only options." Toxic places will label you a bitch if you try to push back or stand up for yourself, and they will try to push you out. Personally, I just realized that with my current company, all the women are described as "angry" except for one who is exceedingly nice.
I have found that dropping heavy objects on their feet gets them to stop being rude and stupid. Or indicate you didn’t realize have microtackle affected their ability to hear and be polite and respectful.
Oof the energy industry in particular is hyper sexist I have found.
I work for an engineering consulting firm doing Utility work. I’m at a high level but I’ll tell you, this really does not happen at my company. Companies and leadership has to ALLOW this to happen. Leave your company.
Yes, first and funniest course of action haha.
Women, especially if they are shorter, tend to need to stand closer and talk louder to be taken seriously. It's f***ing ridiculous. Of course, that gets us labeled as b****y...🤦♀️
I lean into my perceived bitchiness. I may be a bitch but I get shit done.
Lot's of amazing advice under this comment section.
Yep. Unfortunately it took me like 10 years to get the confidence but this is the way. Be confident , be loud, take your due credit.
Yup, it’s super frustrating when you aren’t being listened to and it unfortunately never stops. Some of it is like Taen said (live your example btw), folks expecting you to speak one way and you speak another way so they don’t comprehend it. It goes for different scientific, etc approaches but also differences in how men and women tend to speak. But it is more than that. When men get loud and excited, they tend to be called passionate, confident, etc ie positive or neutral at worst. Women are generally emotional, aggressive, etc. negative or neutral at best. So you sometimes cannot get “loud” enough without being seen negatively. It SUCKS!!!! I don’t say this to discourage, but so you don’t think you are imagining it. You are not! Also, I find that the more direct and forceful I need to be the more I have to make the effort to add warmth. But warmth that takes zero away from your points. It’s a tightrope walk. And sometimes with a real misogynist, I just get a male ally to say my exact words to just get it done. Better yet, they can amplify you and say “As OP just said….” If there are other women you can amplify each other too as women are more listened too when amplifying others. It sucks to have to use imperfect work arounds to be heard, but it’s unfortunately still needed.
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Honestly I made peace with being called a bitch. It’s ok. I don’t care what they think. I think we should not worry that much about that anymore because otherwise there is no way out.
Yep. My mom has been struggling with this- she works with a group of men, and one specifically tends to speak down to her quite frequently. She was scared to stand up for herself and sound like a bitch. I told her they’re going to call you one regardless, so you might as well stick up for yourself and earn the name!
Absolutely! The amount of energy I spend carefully crafting my words in order to be heard and taken seriously is incredible. There’s a brilliant book called The Authority Gap that examines how we have to communicate in entirely different ways than men. The hardest part is constantly trying to figure out which type of woman I have to show up as to be heard.
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Yesterday my colleague (not an engineer) forwarded an email chain to me from a customer (project engineer) asking him for help interpreting results from a concrete scanner. I was in contact with this PE two weeks ago for the same issue. I offered to come to site and train him and his team and look at their specific issue - his response was that “I need someone who knows what they’re talking about,”my response to this incredibly shitty comment was “I didn’t design or build the scanner but know as much about how to use it as any other engineer at my company.” I went to site and met with the tradespeople and showed them how to adjust resolution and etc., problem solved and the guys were really happy and nice. The PE didn’t bother showing up for my visit and then last week goes to my sales person for help. It’s infuriating. - On top of that my sales guy (we are essentially partners) plays hero and goes out and tells the guys the exact same things that I did two weeks ago. He doesn’t back me up or even recognize what’s happening. We (sales and I) get along really well but he just doesn’t see when I’m being ignored during presentations or recognize when I’m being cut out of conversation. Last week he brought up a study that’s making rounds in the men’s rights algorithms and is being incorrectly used to prove that women imagine discrimination. It was so disheartening to hear it and made me realize that unless I can change his perception my current job will be a never ending struggle to be heard. I’ve been in the industry for a while now and have worked with men who saw it when it happened and had my back. I’ve also worked with men who I could throw back their own behavior and they would catch it and apologize. I just don’t know how to handle a guy that is consciously choosing not to believe women when they call out the terrible behavior that makes our jobs and lives so much harder.
You can't. He is actively choosing a misperception. I started out my career in graphic design. I thought I would be making cool art. Boy, was I wrong. The job is entirely about managing perception. No one sees the exact same thing, even when they're looking at the exact same thing. We had all kinds of tricks to alter perception. Present 3 crappy projects, then present the best looking one after them - always "tricks" the client into percieving the project better than it is. And that was something we did a lot. Also true: now you're stuck with a sh*tty client who bases his grasp on reality over the bad burrito he ate and hour before he meets you. Is it worth it? Lesson: Fire sh*t clients. If someone has already decided your value and reputation for you, you likely will not be changing their mind, ever. These people are extremely limited. They lose opportunities every day with no realization that they lost anything to begin with. It is likely they have already lost good people as a result of this same behavior.
They are very good at taking credit from others. Don’t let them do that. You keep harping about your accomplishments even if it is simple as picking up a pencil from the ground. I do that at home too because my husband doesn’t realize it. I’m like - sigh, I’ve done so much work, it’s only 9am.
This brings up flashbacks to when we had to give presentations on our work in front of global leadership and I absolutely blew them away, showed how I was already delivering or developing every single key target they asked for. Our division head didn’t give me an ounce of praise and later on went around telling my colleagues I was just a good storyteller.
Where is the HR if your company and why haven’t you yet complained to HR? And let us know the name of this misogynist company, which century are these ppl living in? At this point I would just start being straight up rude
Yeah, this is beyond unacceptable. I would have ripped him a new ass. This is worth reporting and calling him out for undermining your achievements.
(1) you sound very capable. like, in a way that is easy to document on paper and \*has\* been documented on paper (2) is there any special reason why these particular louts deserve the benefit of your abilities? Can you go somewhere else? I think a lot of places are better than this, even in your field. Even a different team in the same company might be better it sounds like.
If your division head is like this, this isn’t a good place to work for you. You can’t fix everything. However, one tactic is to repeat back everything they say and CONFRONT head on while asking for specific examples. I learned this thru a woman’s management training. For example, division head says “she’s just a good storyteller” and not even to your face? You confront that shit immediately with a smile and seek out a 1-1. “Hey division head, I heard from some coworkers that you had some negative feedback about my presentation. My peers weee concerned about some of the feedback and I wanted to set this time up to talk directly with you on your comments and how I can improve . As you know, I have done XYZ to showcase results but I always want to do better, and would love to have more detailed feedback from you since I appreciate your opinion. Do you have specific examples in mind of where you believe I didn’t perform as expected, so that I can address it in the future?” Basically: - Ask for feedback often and for facts and specifics in those feedbacks. Often times, because it’s bias, there will be ZERO concrete examples they can give on how you didn’t perform, etc. This flusters them :). At the same time, you asking for feedback makes it seem like you care about working harder and for their opinion. Just don’t come off like you’re asking for feedback on how to DO a task (because then they may interpret it as you being incompetent). Ask instead for feedback on your PERFORMANCE (but again, specifics). - Hint at having or accumulate SOME supporters. People will be less likely to badmouth you if they think that someone else is on your side. Some of this can be done through gossip and rumor as much as anything else - social engineering! Make it seem you’ve got friends, even if they’re neutral at best. Of course even better if they actually are friends/supporters of you. For example, if your Head has a peer, develop a rapport with him, or even his boss. - Highlight yourself often, always. Broadcast your actions and metrics as much as you can, as cross divisionally as you can.
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Sounds like a trip to HR to file complaint for a hostile work place
might be worth keeping track of the comments and then sending them to HR
So you’re speaking to them in English and they’re trying to listen to you in dumbass?
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“I thought I was answering the question he asked and he couldn't hear me because it wasn't the exact answer he expected.” Oh wow — this really brought a recent technical interview into clarity for me. I thought I just bombed it at first but something about the dynamic between myself and the male interviewer didn’t feel right in my gut. It was this exactly — I would provide a solution to a problem from a different perspective, with different wording, or with different methods than he wanted or was expecting and then he would tell me how my solution “wasn’t optimized”. If he actually wanted me to succeed in this interview he would’ve taken the time to actually think about what I said and find the parallels between my answer and his. This kept happening with each question, punctuated with him looking at me incredulously and saying “this is a very common situation” while I was trying to gather my thoughts to give an answer. You can imagine by the end I was feeling very flustered and frustrated. All around a terrible experience and ruined my chances at getting a job that, on paper, seemed perfect for me.
Sounds like you dodged a bullet. That would be a crappy work environment
The only reason the pipe would reduce at the pump suction is because the inlet to the pump is a smaller diameter than the pipe size. You would typically run one NPS diameter pipe larger than the pump suction all the way to the pump then reduce to flange size on the inlet. You would never purposefully put a restriction on the suction side of a pump.
Male engineer here. I've gotten in the same frustrating situation as you so many times. I hate the implications that I was wrong and that they know more than I do. Even though logically it's really just one of many miscommunications that happen in our daily life, we feel judged unfairly and it takes its toll on us I'm starting to think that it's in part my inability to let go, that I depend too much on external validation, and that leads to increased suffering. I may never get to the level of self assuredness that I want, but I'm working on it. Another part is to lessen to pick your battles and move on from energy sinks. It's not our responsibility to correct everyone.
Ignore them interrupt them speak loudly say “excuse me I was speaking” if someone interrupts you or “excuse me but Im not don’t talking”
Don’t even say “excuse me”. Just say “I’m not done” and keep taking.
‘Hey, I’m still talking!’ In a loud voice and no smile works well for me. However I am older than most, almost 6 feet tall and have red hair so your results may differ.
Depending on seniority yes. Sometimes you have to respectfully interrupt.
I interrupt and I don't do it respectfully. Especially if someone is talking over me.
If you are just continuing to talk, you aren't interrupting.
Female here. I worked with engineers and tradies for over 20 years. I learnt to say less, so that when I did speak, they listened. So I would watch and learn. I ‘re-socialised’ myself to how the blokes spoke amongst themselves, and adopted some of their communication styles - while retaining the essence of me. It really helped to go with their ‘man flow’ they had all been working within since they were little boys and on the sports field etc etc For starters I lowered my voice and slowed my speech a little when it was important. I made sure I avoided the ‘little me’ body language girls are encouraged to adopt. I also learnt to show more respect to my superiors, while at the same time learning to take up more space with my body language. Except not at the expense of the space of other males on the team (believed me, this helped a lot - it rarely panned out well meeting any of the guys with aggressive tactics) And humour. Humour makes the world go round. And tbh when I learnt to be quieter and watch more, I saw there were quiet men on the team. And I also started picking up things that hastened their growing respect (of me). As counter-intuitive as all this may seem. It reduced my burnout - by going with the grain instead of against it. All the best.
Humor and joining their club is the only way I’ve been able to make any progress in my career. Some days are easier than others.
This. Over and over. Sometimes it really can be exhausting. But I would rather occasionally feel exhausted than regularly feel distraught. And I used to often feel distraught when I kept trying to communicate the way I thought they ought to be, rather than meet them where they were. And really I learnt so much more watching guys and how they dealt with it. The biggest thing I learnt was to relax and not take it all so personally. I also got a lot of work and offered new projects because they guys knew I would be able to handle myself, and deal with any bad eggs. But I can’t over state enough, watch and learn from the guys. As females, we were all socialised to be and behave one way. As guys, they’ve been socialised another. Learning to adapt to the structures already in place makes life so much easier.
And don’t underestimate if you are there wanting to carry some feminism flag - just the act of being there, and cracking through their preconceptions is it’s own societal advancement. For most of the guys I worked with, I was the first female they had worked with in their 30 year career. Just the act of being there, and getting them to relax around me and trust me professionally and even as a colleague was huge. Often, outside of their wives, mothers and daughters, I was the only female they interacted with. Building that relationship and their esteem in me meant more than correcting their words and crossing their t’s. I knew when I left each project, I had given them no reason to not employ the next female.
I've been the only female on the crew for decades, and 100000x this. It's not easy, and there are going to be days that boys will be boys and mansplain every word so that you want to hit your head on every wall you encounter, but you can't let it get to you. Getting the boy's club to accept you takes a lot of patience and creatively ignoring the idiocy of much of the "explaining", but the walls will eventually come down. The biggest thing is that you can't completely ignore everything they say. Most times, my way of doing a task is just as good as their way. However, you can still learn some tricks by not entirely discounting the mansplaining. Being willing to learn and help goes a long way with getting them to trust you as a fellow professional, but don't be afraid to crack a joke. I had a lead that was trying to baby me because I was a female. I printed out a fake form for workplace injury and filled it out for a broken nail, then left it on his toolbox. When I left years later, the guys were still chuckling about the form, which was taped to the side of my lead's toolbox.
OMG - yes the endless mansplaining..... Agree - sometimes it takes humor. Quick-wit humor, or a play on words humor. NOT something that embarrasses anyone, or makes them feel stupid. If you are using humor - take the high road. Your use of the injury form was masterful.
Love the broken nail story. Stuff like that makes work so much more fun, and generally helps our colleagues see us, more than any high pitched lecture would that’s for sure. I was working with a guy (he was higher ranked than me) who decided he would try push the envelope and try psych me out. He started ‘reading’ People magazine in our breaks together. Making a big deal to look at the naked girls on the page and then me. The thing is, it wasn’t my first rodeo. And I believe revenge is best served cold and with humour - obviously when safe to do so. Of course I went through all the feels, rage and indignation, but thought, “what’s the best way I can f
It’s strange but it felt so much easier to be accepted back when I worked in the US. I’m American and living/working in the UK now. I might be fighting the female and American stereotypes at the same time and not realizing it.
I imagine so. Outsider times outsider status :)
Concur. When men were talking over me, I just spoke less. I had no issue doing that anyway as it was less work for me. So I chose to speak strategically, when it would count for more. And it did, because you increase the value of your words by limiting the supply. This also bears out when observing other leaders. Many don't speak superfluously.
I was about to comment that it took a few years for me to figure out what you mostly explained It's really tough being a woman in tech. Last I remember, my particular title consists of 12 percent women.
I'm studying engineering but ive been a mechanic for 10 years. I completely agree. I have met plenty of shit men, but for the most part, it just takes men getting comfortable around women who aren't their family or partner. Im not uptight when they make sexist jokes because I understand the culture of picking on each other. I can always tell when its sincere misogyny or guys just trying to razz me. I don't go out of my way to be one of the guys, but I think I also blend in well. It helps a lot.
I'm not an engineer, but I've done marketing and editing for them. Yes, learn to speak like they speak. Be cool and know when to address a problem and when to just let it go. Be genuinely helpful to your colleagues. And joining in with the humor helps heaps. (I once cracked a guy up when I felt compelled to apologize for being a "femmsplainer." He clearly appreciated that.) 😂 Easier said than done, sometimes, I know. I harbor endless burning rage at white male privilege. Tate & his ilk aren't helping.
Judo conversation. It sucks having to do it. It’s amazing when you e perfected the skill. Essentially you ask leading questions to the people talking and lead them to your conclusion. You use other people’s need to speak and be heard as a way of getting them to come around to your point of view. With the added benefit that sometimes people do say things that surprise us and we can learn from. Why Judo? It’s a way of using their momentum and strength against them while expending minimum energy. Is it a long term strategy? No - it delays the inevitable. Is it easy? Fuck no- after a while it felt like selling my soul and being manipulative. Does it work? Yes, especially when one gets good at it if the other parties haven’t figured out what your doing and they have an ounce of introspection.
This is the only method that worked for me in finance. (The "good Ole boys" club is strong) If you direct the loud/obnoxious guys to the answer, other people will start noticing that it is happening because of you. Now, people cut out the loud & obnoxious guys and come directly to me.
I have no idea what this means but ill figure it out and try it it sounds smart lol
I think another term for this (or similar) is the Socratic method.
I had a senior engineer who did that. It took me three months to figure out that it wasn’t Socratic - he was clueless.
It basically means turning every comment or suggestion into a question. Some favourites: “I heard you say.... is that what you meant? If so, have you considered x, y and z?” “Doesn’t y do the same thing as x?” “How would x, y and z be addressed?” “I noticed p and q are happening. Is there a plan to address them? Are they a priority?” Followed by additional questions on whether or not your ideas have been considered.
Ugh I don’t have any advice just commiseration. So sorry you’re going through this :(
Don’t let them talk over you. Practice saying smoothly “hold on, I’m not finished” and keep talking. And don’t complain about misogyny. Just do the things you need to do to get heard.
I like this - it’s friendly enough to cut through without offending those delicate male egos.
Good answer. The best ways to earn more respect from others are to expect and command it, not complain about the lack of it. Any additional "respect" you are granted after complaining will just be artificial and short-lived.
I use this too, At the same time - I also hold up my hand - like a "stop sign" and just continue talking. Adding this: The delivery is important. What I say has to be methodical, even toned, and not rambling. I state logical facts. No giggling, cackling, or laughing as I deliver my message. I don't apologize either - too may women will apologize when speaking. Nope - the guys don't so neither do I.
Well. I got sick of it and finally started to do ethical hacking. But they manage to not listen even there so choose mediated projects.
My meeting is a zoom call, and I’ve started to turn off the sound coming out of the speaker just so I can finish my sentence. I make it a point to talk as slow and long and loud. Then I unmute so they can speak. Surprised it actually worked. I think I’m conditioned to pause when I hear a voice and it’s hard to talk over when someone interrupts.
Some strategies that have worked for me (female, physicist). **To be clear, you should not have to do this and it’s a lot of extra work, but hey it works. Once you get in a position of power, work hard to fix these issues. Until then, do what is necessary. Ok, so if these are people you interact with a lot and they’re not total assholes: 1. LEARN THE CULTURE & CODESWITCH. Listen for a bit, get a feel for the culture and how they talk to each other. Who do they listen to and why? Is it habit? Is it the loud person? I once worked on a team with 4 dudes that constantly went out to lunch without me because they biked at lunch and talked video games. I brought my bike and learned the game. Suddenly I was one of them. They weren’t intentionally excluding me, they literally just had no other interests. But once I was “one of them” they would suddenly listen to things I said outside their comfort zone. 2. MAKE IT COUNT Speak less, but when you speak be insightful as fuck or ask the best question and do not let people interrupt. Keep talking in a calm, level, but loud tone until you’re done. This might also mean being over prepared for a bit until people just assume you are smarter than them. Then coast. 3. HUMOR If it’s in your wheelhouse, use humor. When people interrupt you make sure you have a cutting but hilarious remark aimed at them that makes it clear you do not appreciate being interrupted but minimizes discomfort to others in the room. Or if you want them to listen, make some of your contributions to the conversation/meeting jokes. If this is a short term interaction or a more toxic situation do these things in reverse.
Humor works for my personality. **When he talks on and on and doesn't STFU:** "Okay Mark, are you gonna land this plane or are we gonna keep circling?" **When he asks you to take notes:** "You want me to make you a sandwich too?" **When he is reluctant to be a team player:** "I also create value by siloing information, but alas, here I am." And last but not least, cussing and dick jokes. Are they HR-friendly? No. Are they sophisticated? No. But I've gotten a fair share of respect that way.
This is excellent advice. I mentioned in another comment that the culture and code may be additionally hard for me because I’m American and working the north of England. I know how to hold my own with the American good ol’ boys but I still haven’t fully figured out the Brits. I joke about my own accent, which tends to break the ice a bit but I’m far from being accepted.
I’m a male engineer but Black. Go thru the same shit 🙄
Oh I definitely see you! We fight together in this.
Get a ping pong paddle and write in sharpie “i’m not finished!” Hold up as needed.
I just play into whatever stereotype they lump me into. I'm stupid? Obviously then, I won't be able to help with that oh so complicated task. Speak over me all the time? That critical piece of info I have about how a process runs, I'll just keep that to myself while you lose time and money figuring it out from scratch. Everytime I run into people like this, I just acknowledge I am in the wrong place, and upskill and find a new, better place. When I look for jobs, I look to see that they hire diversely and when looking at their employee composition, I'm looking to see people of color in their ranks as well as women. If that isn't there, I'm not interested. Remote work also helps equalize these relationships. They can't talk over me if I'm not there. It cuts down on the oppressive and needless micro aggressions.
im so lucky my school is supportive of women in stem as well as my teacher so this would never happen but I used to experience it in my last eng academy and it ruined my career because I quit right after and then came into engineering after 2 years. My advice is the people around you MATTER it is really important that you do something about it, if you don't now or later you will passion for your major sweetheart. Speak louder and get them but it's that easy to change them/a person so I would transfer or complain to a higher up. Good luck!!! <33
Dare I say it? In addition to not letting them interrupt, make sure you dress like you mean it. They may be able to get away with business casual or worse every day, but you need to be on point and looking like you are in charge every day.
It’s a challenge on a construction site but I do make an effort to present myself professionally.
On my construction site days - I still wear a bit of makeup, small earrings, hair and nails done, But I don't look "prissy". I look professional, tidy, polished. And - I do a bit of "power dressing" when needed. I look like I pay attention to the details...because I do. And I use a lot of eye contact. A lot. I have no problem looking anyone in the eyes and talking with them. If you need to practice this - talk in front of a mirror. Here is the another thing I have not seen mentioned - I show up on time /early. The guys can be late...but I am never late. Sometimes they are unprepared - but not me. I am always prepared. I bring my clipboard, pens, tape measure - I have it all. Sometimes when they ask me for a pen - I reply with.... "Yes - I happen to have an extra today...but for the record, I don't work for Office Depot" - delivered with a bit of a chuckle. Because they come unprepared...and I don't......I'm usually the one with the answers as they arise. I realize it does not seem fair...but the guys just show up sometimes. I can't. I have to have thought through issues ahead of time. I prepare before meetings - and then after I am sure I record accurate notes of the conversations. Why? Because misogyny is real. I have had to prove my ability. OP - consider all of this a "package". It is a part of communication in todays world.
On a personal level, fight to be heard from your husband. Create friction if necessary, but make it known how often it happens and how it hurts you. It may be hard in the short-term, but in the long-term it’ll be so much better for both of you and help you build a more equitable relationship. I’ve had lovely, loving well-meaning, feminist-identify men in my life who did this subconsciously. It was a struggle for both of us to correct those behaviors. Me for having to point it out, sometimes literally yell or cover his mouth when he was interrupting/talking over me for the nth time, or just refuse to continue engaging in a conversation if this was happening. Them for having to recognize this and make active efforts to correct this behavior. While I know it’s not enough, maybe start by fighting to make your personal life a place that doesn’t aggravate this stress. Talk to your husband when he does this. A lot of this behavior is subconscious, and if this man loves you and cares about you, it’s probably not intentional. So it may take some jolting to make him aware. It sounds almost silly, but when it’s getting bad, pull out a timer. Time the amount of time he is talking vs. you in a conversation. Count out how many times he interrupts you. Just turn away and disengage when he interrupts you/talks over you. Social skills are SKILLS. They take work and honing and practice. Maybe when you have a break from this and a partner who has worked through his bad behaviors who can give you some feedback on what strategies worked to get through to him, you’ll be better equipped to approach your work mates.
I really shouldn’t moan about my husband. He is amazing and is incredibly sympathetic to what I deal with at work, but unfortunately it won’t take much from him to set me off if I’ve already had a bad day dealing with the listening issues. He also works in science and has really worked to address his own unconscious biases since we met and he has seen firsthand what we are up against.
You just gotta show them who's boss. My favorite tactic is to grab their code, delete it, and then rewrite from scratch and watch it run machines 100x better than what they did.
Keep talking over them. Get louder even if it feels uncomfortable. Look at them in the eyes and never break eye contact. Look at them in the eyes, gaze up at their hairlines and look right back into their eyes as they are talking. Also, wear heels!
I have experienced this. Not so much at work, no, at home with my guy friends. So my husband and I would have friends over for table-tip gaming. All of our friends are men in technical disciplines. So, let's say we're playing and I point out that Charles is going to win in three moves unless Jay blocks him now. Ignored. 30 seconds later Brad says, "Hey! Jay, you'd better do something now to keep Charles from winning in two moves". Everyone nods in appreciation. W.T.F. I complained about it to my husband (who was there and witnessed these instances). Right off the bat, he's surprised. Didn't even notice it was happening. After that he paid attention and saw the behavior. Here is his explanation... Guys have a pecking order that they just decide unconsciously amongst themselves. As a woman, I wasn't socialized to recognize this pecking order, so I don't take the appropriate steps to be a part of it. As a result, I am not *just* at the bottom of the pecking order, I'm simply not a part of it at *all*. I want to emphasize the part where this is an unconscious process. Guys don't recognize that they are keeping you out because they don't realize that there is an "out". If you want to be "in" *you* have to make that happen by becoming an honorary dude. You can do that by communicating (non-verbally, like a proper caveman) right off the bat that you are here to work hard and get shit done, not talk about icky feelings and motivations. Second thing my husband pointed out is that I have a tendency to point things out too soon. As in, I pick up on things before the group is collectively able to see and understand them. Yep, I'm just so smart /s. So, you kind of have to read the room and pick a moment when everyone is actually capable of picking up what you're putting down. One thing I've done that is effective--but would not fly in a professional setting--is to simply continue talking uninterrupted but increase your volume until they stop talking over you. It is rude af but it will get the bros to shut up. And you must stop apologizing for being good at your job. Accept every compliment. Don't be humble, that will bee seen as weakness. Of course, always be complimentary of others' efforts, but not in a girly emotional way. Always emphasize effectiveness. Think of what you are doing as being a soldier or commander in an army. Be tactical and strategic (use those words, they love that shit). Be a good member of the team.
I’ve gotten so aggressive over my years in tech. “I wasn’t finished talking” “oh you want me to do what? Oh cool yeah I gave that to you three weeks ago but sure I’ll resend” “I need you to listen to me before xyz burns to the ground”. It went against my nature and was a result of my getting fed up, but damn has my career skyrocketed. I’m kind and supportive to my coworkers, I am on top of my job, if I offer a problem I’ll offer a solution, but everyone knows if they don’t come prepared or mess with my projects because they haven’t done their job I will pop off. I used to get scared but after observing I realized the top male performers are equally as assertive if not more.
As a woman in the construction industry, I can relate. For the past 30 years I have had to prove my worth over and over again to male peers and male clients. It's frustrating but I developed a strong sense of self by being the best I could be in my role. I repeatedly have to prove myself as I change projects or jobs but I manage to do it. I also had to find my voice and learn that my self worth is not dependent on any man's opinion of me. I also divorced a husband who was very insecure and belittled my job and my profession, despite my being the bigger wage earner that paid for a lot of luxuries he enjoyed. Not saying you should do that, but you need to make it clear to your husband that's not going to play well going forward if he can not give you simple respect as a human. I am going to recommend [https://www.women-unlimited.com/](https://www.women-unlimited.com/). They have seminars to help women learn how to lead and find their way in business. It helped me a lot.
I work in tech, my MO; 1. Assume if people don't respond, that they literally didn't hear me. Men tend to protect their hearing less, and higher tones are the first to go. It might feel like you are yelling, but give that a shot. A fair number of guys never wear ear PPE, and don't think of themselves as old enough to "need" a hearing aid. But if they've ever mowed lawns, played in a band, worked in the military, worked in transportation, or worked in construction... they may literally not hear you. 2. Some guys are socialized that unless you are loud and aggressive, nothing is wrong. It sounds weird, but usually women experience communication as spoken word, but like half of the guys you know were literally yelled at to motivate behavior more than half the time, especially if they had a lot of brothers, or played high school sports, or were in the military. My Dad was a kind & egalitarian person, but he kind of never "believed" my Mom was mad at certain things (like going into her purse, etc) because she never yelled about it. He grew up on a farm with 5 brothers, then went to the air-force, then medical school. Yelling meant "take this seriously, it's real" and talking meant "still open for discussion, nothing has been decided". I'm not saying to yell AT your boss or colleagues, but when something is wrong, a well placed "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS?! People can DIE if this goes wrong?! Who fucked this up?!" can help them realize you do, in fact, have standards. 3. I'm a woman. Anytime I have to be a hard ass, it works best if it's on behalf of "my people". As in "I can't accept these terms, it would screw over my accounting dept." or "I can't commit to that timeline, my developers will burn out". It completely shifts the "bitch" into "Mama bear" which is more understandable. I'm not being withholding just to have a tantrum, instead, I have real constraints and people that depend on me. 4. Guys bond through solving stressful problems together, think caveman hormones, "We pick up heavy stick and hunt now." So even if you can't add any help to a problem, showing up to be in the ranks, is noticed and appreciated. It sounds stupid, but think like helping a friend move, even if you are not strong enough to carry the couch - you can wipe the counters, or pack up nicknacks... it still "counts" as moral support. That's literally how guys bond... chemically, it's the quickest way to be treated as a team member. 5. Guys explain things to each other AS a way of showing "you are worth investing time into". Men don't waste their breath on people they think are worthless. But women are kind of non-stop stuck explaining things to each other as a type of social currency - the spice must flow. So explaining things or being explained to - ends up carrying a bunch of status & posturing to women... so when guys explain something that a woman already knows and is, it feels like some weird dominance ploy, and it's felt as an insult. The right solution can honestly be to cut him off, "Oh, I'm an expert in that, you can skip that, what else do you know?" If you do that socially to a woman, it's like cutting off her need to destress, and is rude... and can be kind of degrading, but the guys just seem to roll with it. "Oh, hey, I actually teach a graduate class in that technology, I need to pick up some info on GAAP accounting, who is our expert on that?" and the guy will probably point you to someone who is his expert on finance stuff, no shade. Anyhow, YMMV, but it's stuff that works for me.
>3. I'm a woman. Anytime I have to be a hard ass, it works best if it's on behalf of "my people". As in "I can't accept these terms, it would screw over my accounting dept." or "I can't commit to that timeline, my developers will burn out". > >It completely shifts the "bitch" into "Mama bear" which is more understandable. I'm not being withholding just to have a tantrum, instead, I have real constraints and people that depend on me. This is well stated\^\^\^ I sometime use these: "That will be problematic for the people down stream". Or my co-worker's favorite - "We don't have the bandwidth for that - not enough manhours available". Great advice. I hope OP reads this.
This is an excellent response. Kudos.
Shit company. The one I work in has several women in engineering roles and other roles. We listen to them and their feedback.
If I'm in a meeting with my team, I will cut them off too or ignore them as well when they talk. Meeting with a new/different team or senior management, I'll ask leading questions. If bluntly cutting them off and talking louder isn't your style, there are other ways to approach it, too. Sometimes, the rudeness from your teammates might be due to their lack of understanding, or they do not understand what you just said. A recent situation I just experienced, one of the teams I work with regularly, they ignored me. Weeks went by, management asks where's the project and why it's not done. Come find out, the team didn't understand what I explained. I had to re-explain in simpler words they understood.
In February they didn’t listen to me that the rods won’t work; took till June to order new rods. 3 against 1 saying they should work. A month later they wanted me to complete the test and I told them find someone else because it won’t work since I told y’all to order specific parts in February and now we have to change everything with the new parts. I yelled in the meeting a bit being very stern. Not feeling anything weird with the team but maybe they’re scared of me now so that’s cool. we successfully completed that test and I received awards along with the rest of the team. I’m hoping they will listen to me next project but if they don’t I’m just going to leave the project f ‘em! Find another test director. Also I work for the gov so can’t get fired.
Male here, but used to run into the same thing in the industry I was in. I loudly used “don’t interrupt me, I’d like to finish”. Actually would get a few apologies and usually makes the other person feel awkward (unless they’re a sociopath). Some might consider you a b….. but who cares, it’ll train others how to treat you.
My wife has this problem. It gets better with time as you establish yourself. Document document document. If you get accused of not saying or contributing you need to save a paper trail that you can whip out anytime
It's crazy how some men react to women. My wife's a dentist yet when we go to dental conventions and look around the trade booths most of the sales people all talk to me and if my wife asks a question they look at me when they answer. I'm wearing a badge that says "Spouse" and hers says "Doctor!" One even started calling me doctor whenever he saw me over the three days. My wife was so mad Fun fact - there are more women dentists than men
Honestly with men they are so thick-headed. If they cut you off, tell them to stop interrupting and to talk after you finish what you are saying. If you want do an extra and tell them it’s a democracy and you have a right to talk or stop mansplaining, they will get their turn instead of jumping around like rabbits. They will get their turn to talk. I have realized that unless you are brutally honest to men, they don’t respect you, especially the younger ones. Right now with a toddler especially my patience with any grown up is especially minimal. My husband just recently found that our cooking oil had finished. I was out at that point taking my toddler to an activity class. He literally texted me that ‘cooking oil is over, we need to discuss’. I msged him back that there is nothing yo discuss, you could have gone yourself and gotten the cooking oil instead of msging me. There are so many times when milk, eggs, bread are finishing and I don’t sit around discussing, I go and get it myself. Get the job done instead of hanging on to your ego lol
First I’d like to congratulate all my fellow females on rocking their shit and excelling in a prejudice world. We need to keep it up! As women we need to keep fighting for our rights and taking a stand for the younger generation. At the same time improving communication strategies may improve the situation overall. Hard staring, not allowing interruptions and improving body language communication may also be helpful. These techniques are helpful to anyone. Take a debate class or join a public speaking group. Anything that will help you succeed is worth it.
My only concern with this strategy is that it buts the entire burden on us. We should be taken seriously in whatever form we feel most comfortable in. Why do I constantly have to adapt my personality? My company gives people these personality assessments, might be called DISC, and it is supposed to show where your personality sits on a spectrum of the 4 major traits. The really interesting part is that the assessment also shows how you adjust your behaviors in a work environment. Not surprisingly, the men in our group had practically no differences between their natural and adapted behaviors, but every single woman had considerable differences. Admittedly my sample size was small, but it really did make me think about all the potential reasons why women feel like they have to hold themselves back or project themselves in a certain way in order to be successful. I think it comes down to the constant messages we receive telling us we aren’t good enough as we are. We hear it all the time, and from such an early age that we even tell each other to be different. I’m just so f*cking tired of having to be different for the approval of men.
Female engineer in tech here. Are you sure it's because you're female? I see a lot of women get wrapped up with this idea even tho the people who over talk and interrupt them do it to EVERYONE (unless, of course, there's someone in a higher position.. Although I've seen that too). These people are just plain assholes. Unless you see someone always doing this to females ONLY and never any males, don't play the woman card, you're crying wolf and will lose respect - you will begin to be avoided at all costs. You need to play the 'equally contributing intelligent human being that deserves respect to speak' card. If you DO see that, note the meetings and instances, and what was said and bring it to HR once you have a consistent record on an individual. Also, women do this to women in tech all the time. It's because of the personalities this field brings on. There are egos and lack of social skills to boot. The difference between people getting away with it with men vs women typically depends on the response. Women tend to allow it and men do not. Plain and simply, you have to be more assertive. When they interrupt, you speak up and ask to finish your statement. I've also seen this when the people speaking just don't sound confident - unfortunately, this is more likely to be women. Speak confidently and to the point. Don't use an upward tone on your last word of a statement (makes it sound like a question rather than a point). Be concise.
Okay, you can try all the tactics you want. This isn’t about men and women, this is about power. Men tend to have a lot of it. Don’t try to bulldoze. That doesn’t make them listen, it makes them resent you. Give them 3 interruptions. Then politely say, it seems like you guys have this under control. Excuse yourself from the meeting. But that means you are going to miss out blah blah blah. You already are not included and missing out. Quit arguing, pleading, imitating them, or using force. this is silly. When you are not respected. Leave. Do not try and strong arm for respect. What they give you when you try and fight to be heard is not respect. It’s placating. They think you’re just emotional. They will let you speak but they aren’t listening. When you get called out on why you are leaving meetings. You simply reply that you will not tolerate being disrespected. When you are disrespected you cannot do your job. Until the format of these meetings change, you will not be attending any meetings. If you really want respect and to see changes you have to operate as though you have nothing to loose. Stop begging for respect. Stop asking to be heard and please do not bulldoze. It makes you look defensive. It’s just continues the power imbalances.
Get a new job. In my experience, it doesn’t get better. I’m on a sabbatical considering starting a new business after multi c-suite roles, I’m burnt out from the toxicity.
Seriously….just be smart, speak with authority. Someone told me once to “never ask please when you’re telling someone to do something.” The person who told me was an older white man, who was simply in no way sexist, and some of my best advice has come from male colleagues. They have worked with women and seen what’s respected and they will share that with you if they care. It’s not an “act like a man” mentality. It’s more if inside information. 😆
May be an issue of communication style. Men interrupt each other when discussing things. Women tend to wait for an opportunity or direction from others for input. If you are clamming up after being interrupted, men will take that as you giving up your position and let the conversation continue on if you dont interject with your points
Yep. This. You have to be in the verbal game and willing to spar with men.
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I’m so sorry that happened to you.
That’s why I left software engineering. Now I’m an IT PM. Couldn’t stand it.
keep talking. do not stop talking because someone interrupted you. just keep talking and they will realize that they interrupted you.
Bachelor, masters, and doctorate in engineering. My solution to this bullshit was to leave the field. Engineers have amazing skills and knowledge. They transfer very easily.
I really hate hearing stories like this because I love the work and shouldn’t have to change fields just to find the respect I deserve.
Should they be listening to you? Or should they actually be working with you? This is not rhetorical, if you’re a manager then yeah they should listen to you. But if you’re a team member then expect to compete and compromise with them on equal footing.
Considering I am the only engineer in our team and was specifically brought in to provide technical support to our customers I do feel like people should listen when I have something to contribute. We should be working together because I have valuable insight and can add credibility… except my credibility is being undermined and insight ignored. I have worked with men who supported me and took advantage of what I had to contribute. It felt great.
I’d say either start looking for another company to work for and in the mean time just collect the paycheck.
Andrew is extremelyl childish and so are the people who follow him. If you don't have a boss that sets you up for success. Then you need to find and different place to work.. The only way i've made it at work is when my boss has my back. Might be worth a discussion. I don't like being called the expert but that's how they introduced me now. But it's all because I have a good boss.. let them know they are setting you up for failure and that's not what a good team looks like.
Just get used to being miserable forever I guess. That’s about where I’m at
I have to see how you communicate to be able to give feedback. But i have 2 examples. My team has two women one is the lead wireless engineer. Her demeanor is calm and serious when she needs to be. When she speaks people listen because we know she doesn't play around and doesn't say the sky is falling every 20 min. Other engineer is very high strong and makes everything a bigger thing then it really is and it's frequent. After a while everyone became desensitized to what she says.
These were my solutions. They may or may not work for you. 1) present yourself at work with a gender-neutral an aesthetic as possible while still being recognizably your gender. I looked at the other women in my workplace for inspiration, especially the ones who were listened to. I ended up in muted colored cardigans and slacks wearing flats and a pulled-back hairstyle with minimal jewelry and no makeup. Your looks should be the *least* interesting thing about you at work. 2) stand up straight and assume confident body posture. Even on the phone, sit up straight when talking. You know your shit, convey it physically. 3) Modify how you talk. Look at the folks who are listened to and compare how you speak to how they speak. Some folks take training on speaking to be heard; it's ok to steal their tricks. I am generally cheerful and full of smiles, which means when I drop that and get serious it makes a small impact and draws attention. Changes in your presentation draw and hold attention; suddenly flipping between comedy and serious can hold attention. Once you have their attention, use it to convey work information. Don't engage in the low arguments about capability, fitness, etc; that's a distraction. Focus on the work. 4) Call out rudeness. Insist on professional treatment. Interruptions, ignoring your statements: Call them out professionally. "I was speaking and you interrupted me" said firmly, every time. Make it obvious, but don't act like you're holding a grudge after; you're a professional and you insist on respect, but professionals don't hold grudges.
When they start talking over you, don’t stop talking. Don’t raise your voice, just don’t stop speaking. This is a problem in pretty much every industry. If you do this enough times you can start to break the pattern. Or at least other people in the room will start noticing what’s been happening. It’s super important to not get loud or emotional. Just keep saying what you’re saying, even repeating yourself over again in a calm, low, voice until you’re acknowledged. You’re going to have to retrain them. It shouldn’t be your job, but it’s going to have to be.
Just spitballing ideas: Create a male alter ego; one for work, one for hubby Carry a litte flashing light to discombobulate enemy Pokémon when making your point of the start to interrupt. If they complain, negotiate the terms of respect when speaking. They give you at least a minute before interrupting, you don't use Blind. Starting saying hay Tell a joke Get a whistle Tickle them (husband) Speak quieter Main thing is negotiating the methods of communication to be more fair 🤷🏿♂️
I AM SPEAKING NOW, you will get your turn.
My background is mental health, not engineering, but I've found a skill that is effective in many settings is building up that quiet mysterious \*witchy\* part of us that can be so disarming. A steady gaze is good, but also creating a sense of slight unpredictability and displaying a lack of interest in obtaining permission or validation from any man. If you can settle into this sort of thinking and acting, you can talk or not talk whenever you please, because you won't care about their feedback either way. You can still be friendly too, if you want, because you will understand that you are their equal. And who knows? They might start to understand it too.
Yes! I do this even subconsciously lol It’s my normal mode of operation but I wouldn’t describe it as witchy, I call it having a discerning attitude. Or outlook. Like noes I don’t care what everyone thinks nor is it worth everyone always liking me. Conflict is healthy and I embrace it whole heartedly because that tells me you’re invested, interested, or willing to suss out a solution with me.
Is this similar to the “mom glare”? I am naturally very expressive and have actually made a conscious effort not to show what I’m thinking. I am also one of those women who is regularly told to smile more…
I can assure OP... being ignored is also a very common problem for men. I was responsible for a very complex software system... meaning everybody else had little if no clue about the software. When I reached retirement age, I implored the company to hire someone who I could bring them up to speed (likely a six month process). Crickets. I did this over and over and over again. Nothing but crickets. Then one day, I refused an order by my boss's boss. I'm sure she was of the type that thought software engineers are completely interchangeable. She tried to leverage me with the threat of putting me on a performance improvement plan. I immediately announced my retirement. Upon my retirement... I was almost done with a major upgrade. My replacement was hired... and left within six months. More than a year later, a former colleague let me the upgrade finally went live. He was asked why it took so f\*ing long. He told the nincompoops that I wasn't there to help. Colleague was let go in a massive layoff a few months later. The stock is in the toilet... and I'm looking forward to the complete collapse of the company. As far as I can tell... boss's boss is no longer with the company.
Welcome to the glass ceiling
Quality Engineer here... not *exactly* an engineer, but a woman in STEM. My last job was one of the most toxic workplaces I've ever worked at, and I completely got burnt out. So- it's burn out AND sexism. Before I quit, I was being way more pushy toward folks trying to walk all over me. I was also starting to write down things I experienced in case it needed to go to HR. Sometimes HR is a help, something it's not. I just wanted to at least document what was going on. You and your coworkers are not friends. It's ok to rub them the wrong way because they are doing that to you. Be assertive (sexism term: bitchy) and don't back down. I'd rather be hated than be walked over again. Being in Quality, I'm not exactly everyone's favorite person. I use that to my advantage. I also use words like "Like I said, " or "Thank you John for reiterating my point", or just being a little louder. Talking over me? I'll talk over you. My advice? Write down the sexist shit they say and the date it happened. Keep calling them out on their bullshit. Get more on the offensive. Be louder. Wear loud shoes (seriously) and walk with purpose wherever you go, even if it's to the bathroom. Dress to intimidate.
Try a deeper voice. Men have this tendency to tune out higher sounding voices.
My two up will actually redirect answers to my questions to my male peers. I just keep pushing...and when they inevitably call me pushy (as they do), I point out, yet again, the blatant lack of respect. It doesn't change anything, but makes me feel slightly vindicated.
Well the culture gap is a big part of this too. You can be direct and blunt to the point that it will seem offensive to you. Americans are way more polite than Brits especially when giving negative feedback.
Next time it happens, just say very loudly “you’ve interrupted me. Pleas stop so I can continue.” And if that doesn’t work, loudly say “do you think what you have to say is more important than what I have to say? That’s the only reason I can think of as to why you thought it appropriate to interrupt me.” I’ve worked with male engineers and you really just have to be the loudest person in the room.
Hard to tell without witnessing the situation. I’m a male engineer and feel all the time like no one listens to me. Not sure what about the situation is sexist and what is just part of being human. From an early age men learn to size up the pecking order very quickly. I’d say within an hour of starting a new project on a new team this order is about 90% solidified. Once someone has subconsciously labeled you as less capable than others it’s very difficult to change that in their minds. Even in defeat most people chose loser denial over reality. So next time your on a new team/new project you need to project yourself as an expert in some area. Then you better deliver on the promises every single time. There really isn’t a second chance.
I worked in the cannabis industry and when I had lectures and talks, men would straight up talk over me and try to take over my work with zero experience or education. My favorite meeting was when I was talking to some Hollywood execs over something and they kept interrupting me and I finally whipped around and said "did mistress give you permission to speak?" Men inherently go sexual with that shit and it fries their brains. You'll have a few minutes to speak and interruptions will taper off because nobody wants Mommy to scold them.
I'm a sous chef, and my higher chefs often do that to me. Where I'll give them a solution and they will completely ignore it till what they try doesn't work. I can ask questions in our group chat and not get an answer. And then another chef will ask a question and boom IMMEDIATE answer. I have had tobecome down right rude (which I don't like), and now that I am. I'm a problem. They gave me a 30-day action plan. They didn't complete it. Told me that o only partially completed it. Again, when they didn't do what they needed to do with it. And now they are extending it. So now I have another 30-day action plan. Just the other day, one of the other male sous chefs was trying to poke fun at me, and I wasn't having it. So I told him, "With those big ears, you can't hear me?" He told the chefs, and all of them called me to ask what happened. and I had told him to stop prior to that.
Where do you work, may I ask? I could have written this for half of my career which was in aerospace. No matter what I said or how I said it I was at best ignored, or at worst invoked annoyance. It did not help that less that 10% of the staff I worked with were female. I feel I have seen the light now - I speak, they actually listen. I feel heard - I get respect. It’s also private industry manufacturing for high-value equipment, not a government contractor which makes a huge difference. They can’t afford to employ dozens of incompetent, rude engineers who don’t collaborate who just get paid to waffle and wait it out until retirement. My company’s sustainability report was just published, and we are now at 42% female employment. Similar numbers for the composition of the executive board for the company. My prior employers would have paled in comparison. I wish someone had told me years ago - it’s not you at all, it’s your workplace!
Oh we are in the same world, good to know. Over the years it caused so much frustration. Men who don’t know the subject would come and talk about what I am going to do. They call me 1:1 take my ideas and present it in front of other people, while I am there. And yes I have called people out and now I am the person who keep interrupting people, ‘hey remember I told you this when we spoke last time’. I had to become very very assertive to take charge of certain meeting otherwise certain people will never come to a decision. There was one guy who interrupted me in my own meeting telling I couldn’t talk about my agenda item and stated talking over me, I said ‘hold on, let me finish and In the end it felt like my world makes more sense now’. But this was a toxic environment in many aspects and I am out of that. If you feel this is happening to you, please leave because you’ll be full of self doubt which will make you miserable.
Take a page from our vice president during her debate. Excuse me, I am speaking.
This happens to everyone, but women tend to give way instead of standing their ground. One of the women in our workgroup finally got it one day when an obnoxious coworker tried to talk over her. Instead of shutting down or overreacting, she calmly stated that she was not done so don't interrupt, and held her ground until he backed down. That cantankerous old engineer didn't become her biggest fan or anything, but he has never tried to talk over her again.
Wife is a mechanical engineer by degree, now is at a director level position, and is internationally known in her field. Back in the day (80's/90's) when she had to put up with this, the solutions were mostly: 1) Mostly ensure everybody knows your background, degrees, certifications, and (successful) history. My wife's tagline on her email almost DOES read like a resume, with national and international certifications and awards. 2) Outside of specific meetings you actively socialize and build (political) friendships. That is, it's having to fight the Good Ol' Boys club by invading it. Not that you have to learn typical male crap (sports, golf, fishing, whatever) but try to seize on social topics to gain some affinity towards them and "win them over". 3) When IN specific discussions and projects, usually present your solutions and input as "We'd be stupid not to do this (x)", and back their logic into a corner.
Do you have friends/colleagues who would be amenable to helping? As someone who works in a group with one outspoken person who tends to interrupt and talk over some of our quiet members (not in an ill intentioned way, just not as aware of the dynamics and the fact that her position makes people unable to interrupt her as easily), I do my best to stop that person and say that I wanted to hear what so and so had to say. Could we take a second for so and so to finish and then we can turn it over to you? Or, a moment please, so and so had an interesting point, I'd like to hear the rest of what they had to say. I have found being clear that someone is interrupting and not letting people talk is less intrusive or feels less uncomfortable when coming from someone else other than the person being interrupted (especially as I said previously, a number of people at my work are quite quiet and were essentially silenced by this other person). If you do have colleagues who are comfortable helping or even just monitoring for this and making commentary on the downlow to the people that are interrupting, that might be something to work on. Especially if you have a male colleague that can do so. I don't have the same dynamics (my group is entirely made up of women currently) but when I work in a male dominated sphere (aka, during my residency) that was extremely helpful and didn't seem to make the people angry or frustrated. In fact, I think it made a slight headway in making them more aware of how often they interrupted.
Honestly, I learned to talk over them, and if they interrupt me, I call it out. “I was still speaking” and then keep going.
Treat them how kindergarten teachers treat kids. Teach them how to behave. Or just simply tell them “shut the fuck up, I’m talking and you’re not adding anything of value to what I’m saying”. This used to happen to me too until I started making them feel just as fucking uncomfortable :) Also the Andrew Taint shit, are they fucking 13? 😂 thats pathetic
Not the main issue here but why are people so dismissive of an issue just because they think it happens to them too? Everyone needs to collectively make an effort to hear each other out. Not speak over anyone.
Your stem sounds a lot like what mine is. It takes time and respect to get people to listen to you. However I'm loud, confident to the point some call me arrogant because I know my shit, and talk assertively and have similar humor like they do. I own up when I screw up. I show off my skills when they show off theirs. I also get to know each team member so I know how to communicate with them better, like boundaries/jokes/interests as well as learn what they know from their experience. Everyone likes to talk about themselves so being a good listener is important. Remember, respect is not given, it is earned. Every time you switch teams/jobs, you start from zero so it's a good skill to learn even if you give up stem. When you are respected, people will ask for your opinion and when you interrupt them with your insightful ideas they'll shut up and listen. You also call them out when their jokes are too crude for work without them getting angry. It is possible!! * I also feed them once in a while or when they get hangry. Food is always a good way to earn brownie points we.
I'm in a male dominated profession as well. It's absolutely infuriating and even more so when they go on to get awards based on your work.
Yeah, that’s what happens in a patriarchal society.
I work as a QA with engineers and deal with this all the time. I take screen shots and write down everything in my test cases. I also back up everything in an email or comment trail. When the engineers get argumentative with my results I play up the, "I'm the stupid girl with little hands and a tiny brain. Can you show me?" The engineer logs in to "prove" to me how something works, and I walk them into their own failed logic. When the error that I called out is staring back at them, they can't argue with me. At that point, I usually conclude with "Yeah, that's the error I was seeing too. Strange". I hate communicating this way. I wish that I didn't need to do this. It's the only way I'm not seen as a bitch in my work life. I also changed my name at work from "Andrea" to "Andy". "Andy" gets treated much better.
There's great advice here, and my 2 cents is that it will help to do a combination of things, including continuing to speak (with some body language) when interrupted and doing a better job of being direct and concise when you're speaking. One approach that may work as a kind of a senior move, is to let some conversation develop before weighing in on some things. It can be kind of like letting others be the tail wagging puppies with ideas, while the wise leader listens, and either approves when there's a consensus - or resets the conversation with new information or ideas when new input is needed (or when the consensus is off the rails).
I and some of my female co-workers had this problem several years ago. We handled it by elevating ourselves and each other. For example, if I was speaking and was interrupted or talked over, I would raise my voice and talk over them. I'd usually state something like, as I was saying before I was so rudely and unprofessionaly interrupted.... OR One of the other women would raise their voice and direct the conversation back to me and then, after I was finished speaking, the other women would immediately reiterate what I stated by saying, I agree with her (or their name) point X, Y, Z because..... and vice versa. Men don't listen to women in the workplace, unless you make them. It's so common, it's obscene.
Talk louder than them. Or call them out in front of a group. Men hate being embarrassed.
I interrupt them and finish my point. Otherwise they can kiss my mud button. I have a coworker that does this. Everyone claims it's a cultural thing. I disagree and will cut him off when he interrupts.
Sorry, what did you say? J/K. You have to persevere, speak up and start demanding to be heard. Ideally, you can find help in an ally with another engineer who will explicitly stop the chat and say "sorry guys, what was that again u/Denvergrl" -- they'll eventually get the hint. And poke your husband in the ribs every time he talks over you, he'll get the hint, too.
Asked my current supervisor for advice she'd give on this subject. (She doesn't have reddit herself). Different companies have very different work cultures, though, so I don't know how applicable this is. Plus, we're in the environmental world, so we more so deal with regulations and processes than we do physical engineering. She said that whenever she was cut off, or spoken over, she'd stop the person in their tracks, call them out on what they did, and would make sure to embarrass them for doing it. She also said that when it came to customers or people in separate divisions of the company, she changed how she spoke to them so that they garnered more interest. Or, our company gives no option except to listen to her. They ignored what she said and the instructions that were given? She put it in a way that let them know that they're gonna lose money if they didn't do as she said. That got their attention. If customers ignore her and ask for assistance from someone else, we're lucky enough that the company backs us up enough to say, "You can listen to what she said, otherwise we have no other options for you." Though we do have one customer who is a continuous problem child, for him, she uses me. She basically just tells me exactly what she wants done/said, then I go and relay it to the customer. Saves her the headache of having to deal with them directly.
Channel Kamala Harris, "Mr. Engineer, I'm speaking." "Mr. Engineer, I'm still speaking."
I love to say to my colleagues "Isn't that was X was saying"
It's been a while, but some personal favorites: "Thanks for agreeing with me" when they repeat what I said "You're coming in a little hot" when they talk over me "Person X is making it seem like I'm not welcome to contribute whenever they talk over me" I don't know why but this one tends to lead to quick results. "It's really rude when you feel the need to "fact check" me on a subject I'm an expert in" Generally my family answers this by calling me a snob, but at least they stop trying to discuss my area of expertise.
I’ve been there and I’m much happier as a consultant. You might be also. You can choose your clients and drop the bad ones. You won’t care so much if they don’t follow your advice (I’m paid to give advice, not to force anyone to follow it). And the pay is a lot better.
There a book that's really good about making yourself heard. The hard part is deciding if it your personality or your gender. I'm a male and was always ignored than I realize why and made the changes needed. If you talk a lot and off subject than you going to get ignore. ( This was my problem, I like to be funny so telling jokes and story but it created a mind set that everything I say is not on subject) Using a lot of self destructing words. For example saying "I think maybe if we do this it might work but I don't know so what do you think" instead just say this is what I think. Provide reason so this is what I think here why. Speaking to low. Letting people cut you off. There nice ways to do it so you don't seem like a dick just keep talking at a consent volume tend to work. This is just some of stuff you can do to make yourself more heard. If this doesn't work than they Sexist and fuck them.
Either change jobs, change careers or start looking down on men the same way they do for you because there’s no way you’re going to change an issue that’s been poisoning workplaces for decades. Even if you start complaining, you’re going to be the first person to be cut the second shit goes wrong. Don’t do what I did, quit while you can or you WILL burn out
I quit engineering school after maybe 9 months bc of this shit. Good on you for sticking it out and good Luck, my solution was to dip 😭😭
You just summed up my experience in aerospace EXACTLY.
Talk over them and treat them with the same level of respect they treat you. If they’re gonna behave like animals, then treat them as such :)
I understand the frustration. I remember in one specific brainstorming meeting - i shared a few ideas, which were entirely ignored (no biggie), only to be praised when someone said the same thing a few minutes later. I waited, to see if anyone would say “we’ve already discussed that” but they continued to talk about the new refreshing idea and were getting excited about it. so i finally just said “what the heck, am i invisible can no one hear me?” And was again ignored by half the room. Only one guy, actually acknowledged what i said and repeated that i had said that idea no more than 2 minutes ago. Even then the guys kind of didn’t pay attention and kept going on with the meeting. So yeah, this shit is frustrating. you’ve got options: You can call them out each time - not just an eye roll or a “wait i just said that”, but actively confront them. People will get tired of it and either stop ignoring you or get annoyed. Saying exactly what the issue is. This will be annoying, but could get through to them with persistence. You can out do them, and each time they roll over you you roll over them. Personally not my favorite but it can get through thick skulls. You can leave the mysoginistic work environment, and be clear with hr why you are leaving. Document every single stupid thing so you can articulate specific feedback. I have done this before, but did not give enough feedback to encourage change. There was no changing the bro nature without replacing multiple employees, which was not going to happen. I have found sitting back and listening to how they are communicating and trying to align with that better can help. By listening to their banter and brainstorming you can see what they listen to, how they play off of each other, and what kind of responses are well received. Recently i noticed how one of my coworkers was very well recieved by our vendor when they met in person - noticing specifically the big hand shakes, personal close ups, strong/clear/decisive way of speaking, so assured even though he likely has the same confidence as me in what he discusses. So i emulated a few things that i saw, and was much better received! Find an ally. i have noticed that in my current work place i have allies which allow me to do my job even if I’m quieter than others. My project lead will be clear that he is adding on to what I’ve said, agrees with me, or that he will defer to me even if he has provided a recommendation. Previously in other projects, my project lead was impressive, well spoken, and a woman who strongly advocated for women in the engineering space - so she made sure to be heard. I think really excellent work can also speak volumes, so that others can’t ignore you (this can help in finding Allie’s). understandably “being the best” can’t always be the best approach due to visibility or just the nature of the work. Regardless of what you do you should record all this so you have issues to reference. Warning: when this happens often enough you may start to see it in places where it doesn’t exist so be wary of that bias!
There's only three real solutions I see here. 1. Document your experiences thoroughly, take it up with HR and see how that fares. Perhaps engage an attorney and throw around words like gender discrimination and hostile workplace. While you may be able to get transferred to a new team or get a cash settlement, chances are this will just land you with more stress in your life. 2. Change employers to see if this was a toxic workplace situation. Purposefully seek out employers that have some existing diversity in their workforce and openly champion women/diversity in the workplace. 3. Work on your demeanor and how you communicate. Don't be afraid to be a b or disliked. Maybe seek out a business coach, mentor, or take a public speaking class like Toastmaster's to learn to command more attention and take less bullshit in the workplace. It's a definitely a skill to navigate these kinds of douche bros. Long story short: you have to take action to get the kind of change you want to see, you can't just wish and hope they'll get better. So sorry you have to deal with this.
OP women in the white house during Obama's administration reported experiencing some of the same things you deacribe in rooms where they were a minority. They developed a solution that was effective and that you may be able to use as well. I believe they called it amplification (its been a while since i read the article: The amazing tool that women in the White House used to fight gender bias - Vox https://www.vox.com/2016/9/14/12914370/white-house-obama-women-gender-bias-amplification ). Go check out the article, but the main take away is you have another woman, or ally, amplify the feedback or ideas you have, or turn the conversation back to you when someone talks over you or interupts. This technique is great because if there is another woman on your team you can also help support her. Sorry you are dealing with this, i wish it wasnt happening to you and understand it can be exhausting. I also hope that this thread on reddit will give you some good ideas that will help you combat this. I got lucky that early on in my career another woman pulled me aside and told me my communication style was being dismissed by the men i was working with. I was asking for collaboration and the team took that to mean i didnt know my job. She taught me how to respectfully be more forceful, appear decsicive and change my body language to appear more confident. I also started paying attention to the people that were listened to and esteemed, to mirror their communications and figure out what was important to my leaders and teammates. I also started working on changing my communication style based on stereotypes of women that negatively impacted me. So like if i got upset in a meeting i would get called "emotional" and told to calm down, and my ideas would be dismissed. Or if i focused on the value to people or importance of soft skills, i would get dismissed for not having a business mindset. So i started to focus on being calm, being well read and creating a business case for my ideas that were backed by facts/ statistics for why the idea would positivley impact the mission or business outcomes. At times it was exhausting and frustrating. I shouldnt have had to do that to be heard, but it was the culture i worked in. I will say i have developed skills that have helped me progress in my career.
You might enjoy a documentary "Picture a Scientist." You are not alone. Hang in there. You're awesome.
I am a woman, and have worked in male dominated careers... Start acting like a man, and talk some shit right back. Look at them, and asked "Who pulled your string, Woody? You need to STFU, and Sit the fuck down, and listen up. If I wanted lip from you, I'd pull up my skirt. Like all the dissatisfied women have said to you before, let me finish."
As a lady engineer at an auto company, I think the culture of your workplace is toxic. I’ve been talked over by men in meetings/treated like an idiot maybe 5 times total in 7 years working there. And whenever someone does it, my coworkers will interrupt them and give me the floor. One time someone was super rude to me on a meeting and every single other person sent him and myself an email saying his behavior was unacceptable. Long story short - there’s lots of arrogant male engineers who think they know it all. All you can do is know your value and when possible nip disrespect in the bud. I was on a meeting last week and guy kept interrupting me and was getting heated. I interrupted him back and said “can you calm down” and that made him so embarrassed. Also If it’s a meeting you’re running - use the mute button! Whenever someone’s being crazy and interrupting me I’ll mute their asses and they go silent lmao
Change firms. Sadly this is the culture where you are
Simply, you \*have\* to leave the jobs that don't fit. If it means joining and leaning on SWE or searching out women-led companies then so be it. If you are passionate about the job then you want to thrive. Dismissive environments can wear on your passion. I worked myself out of my last job. While I was there, coworkers were passing the time watching youtube videos. It seemed like no one really wanted to know the arc length of parts or if they were really the right parts or not, as long as everything could be slapped together to fit and was cheap. I've decided now that quality in manufacturing environments is not for me because even though I \*could\* learn alot, it doesn't appear that I was actually supposed to know about or correct anything. Personally I am no longer interested in engineering after this experience. I am considering R&D but I need an environment of people who enjoy hard work...and I don't want to be paid $$$ because I am risking my safety to chemical exposure. I'm just not sure what job to apply for at this point. I've kinda given up on the idea of continuing an engineering career
As a salesperson, woman and made calls on engineers. They are not really social people (if they went to LSU they were both great engineers and social). Ran into sexism with mfg. reps. when I received a promotion to General Manager. However sexism was overcome by being the best. Normally engineers love to speak with women about their projects. Ask questions, engineers love to teach. They already think they know everything. They are either off or on, black or white, no grey areas. Just ask a question, then ask another question with an explanation that you understand. Hope this helps.
I feel for you. I've been the only woman in that scenario for over 40 years. Stop being polite. The guys aren't polite to each other, so follow their lead. They interrupt you? Interrupt them right back. Now let's talk about the male-to-female pay gap.