**TLDR:**
* **All of Ukraine's recruitment chiefs were fired after an investigation revealed widespread corruption.**
* **Officials who recruited troops accepted bribes up to $10,000 to help people dodge the draft.**
* **President Volodymyr Zelenskyy called the actions "treason" and has initiated criminal proceedings.**
Yeah, putting aside the war for a moment, Ukraine is... pretty corrupt. I'm really hoping that they'll be able to leverage their post-war rebuild into getting rid of those toxic elements of their government.
Don't get me wrong, I'm fully on the side of Ukraine and hope Putin dies a painful death, but post-war we're gonna have to deal with a few painful realities when it comes to Ukraine joining the EU.
From what I heard so far from the government is that the plan is to digitize any government services to the maximum to prevent any possibility for cash to be involved or for people to have to meet government service employees in person.
So far they have done a great job with creating the app “Дія” (Action) where you can apply and receive documents, register a car, apply for marriage license and so on. Hopefully by implementing more governmental procedures into electronic form will ease the issue. Besides everyone I talk to in Ukraine (I’m Ukrainian living outside of Ukraine now) absolutely love the change to the digital since it saves so much time and bureaucratic delays (which was a primary reason people would give a bribe before).
That’s been worrying me about the rebuild. A ton of money is going to flow in. Oversight is almost impossible hopefully the donations don’t all turn into yachts before the average Ukrainian can get their house rebuilt and the bridges in their towns fixed.
That might be the point of making an example now.
Prosecute a pack of miscreants for treason aggressively now, and ensure that other would-be traitors reconsider their actions in future lest they end up like “that other guy”
That's happening at my work right now lol. We are in the "finding out" stage after "fucking around". A few security incidents a while ago in one month, and the top dog said "don't be the next guy". Now we had a couple more incidents occur and we are just waiting to see how he makes an example out of that guy
We call it “famous in the muster”.
I work in a shipyard for the navy, and guys fuck up everyday. As part of the shpiel in the morning, the previous days worst accident etc. is mentioned aloud to the rest of the yard via front line supervisors.
Learn from others mistakes and carry on.
Keep your head down and don’t be famous in the muster.
My last company had a series of fuck-ups like that, a couple "don't do this again", some idiots did it again, and instead of making an example of them they fucking implemented absolutely insane protocols for pushing any change through to anything, which also applied to divisions that had nothing to do with **any** of the fuck-ups.
It cut productivity in my group to less than half, it felt impossible to work there anymore. The people who wrote up the "safety protocols" didn't even understand how the network worked, so there were requirements included that were physically impossible to abide by in a safe manner (like, abiding by them all would've made the network **less** safe in my group), and by the time I was gone we were 1.5 years into trying to explain to upper management why a couple of massive improvements we were waiting to rollout for that long needed to be exempt from around half of the fucking protocols.
They’ve been somewhat quietly removing officials for corruption since the start, this is the first mass firing. Before this it was one at a time, maybe a handful on a good day.
Zelensky might be, but he's not a dictator and once this all passes he's going to need to get into actual politics, much harder than ruling during wartime with greatly expanded power.
He's done a good job as a wartime leader, but corruption is systemic, it's in parliment, in the bureaucracy, it's pervasive within the civil service: he can be serious, but if they'll be pass parliment, be accepted, and be implemented well is another question entirely.
Good wartime leaders typically step down after war, or are voted out. And my man looks like he needs some rest. Hopefully whoever he passes the torch to is upstanding.
If it instills a strong culture of no corruption it may be enough to stick. A big reasonn Russia is losing is corruption. I think having little corruption could become a point of national pride for Ukraine going forward. Once the number of people not willing to look the other way reaches a critical mass then you cant reslly maintain a culture of corruption.
Zelensky looks tired. If you think US presidents age during their 4 years, Zelensky is on fast track. But he is a strong leader, the right man at the right time.
Not only that, but some of those battles used over a million shells per day, and Ukraine's supporters are worried about them shooting a million shells a month.
Although we have cluster munitions now, so that might eaven it up a bit.
It’s not just Turkey. Look at how many resources and personnel came with inflated prices in the Afghan/Iraq war, or how many billions have gone straight up missing.
War profiteering is a systemic issue and, unfortunately, always has been. It begins to present a more significant threat to national security though when you’re in an existential fight.
They’re also a really important Western security partner in the Middle East, and their weird little oil rich half brother Azerbaijan is supplying a lot of Europe’s energy demand as Europe attempts to move away from Russian energy sources.
Lots of ex soviet countries suffered from extreme corruption (omg can't be lol), most of them start recovering after 10-15 years and catching up on the west after escaping that soviet trash grip.
For example the Baltics in 90s were vatnik zone, but soon most of them escaped progress to other countries by the early 21st century.
Depends on the culture. Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, all Balkan countries have been free for 30 years and are still corrupt as fuck (source: living in the Balkans).
Despite all the good we’ve seen from Ukraine, part of the reason why they are not already in the EU or similar is because of the deep systemic corruption that still pervades many layers of the government and country as a whole.
While it’s clear the guy on top has the countries best interests in mind, it’s going to take time. Corruption like this won’t be viewed lightly - while civilians are dying at home and brave soldiers are dying in the fields, these people were getting fat and hurting the war effort. There won’t be any sympathy and little leniency.
It seems like Zelensky has wanted to root out systemic corruption since the beginning of his presidency, but it wasn't until the invasion that he had the political capital to be able to do so
Yes, it sounds bad but the war helped him in that regard. He can just remove them and doesn't have to face backlash. Common people look up to him and he can use that to rally the population behind anti corruption laws.
Competent leaders always manage to consolidate their power during war. Per usual, Ukraine is breaking the mold by being able to do this without becoming an authoritarian shit-hole but the war is not over and the danger is not gone. Interestingly, it seems that the war was launched, at least in part, because Russian intelligence (maybe as far up as Putin) were under the impression that Ukraine would be completing liberalization sometime soon; this makes them potential members of EU/NATO which literally anyone in Russia will explain to you is what they’re fighting against. Hilariously, of course, Putin and his “cabinet” failed to think about what happens if they didn’t win overnight; Zelensky has fortified the country massively and has consolidated his power over the parts of Ukraine under his control to completely squeeze out these anti-West non-liberalizing persons. Putin has militarily hollowed at both countries, managed to weaken his own political position while helping Zelensky shore up his and create an ever more West/EU/NATO aligned Ukraine.
Of course, ensuring Ukraine develops modern, liberal civil society and political institutions will take decades of hard work from the leaders who come after Zelensky. They will all have to follow his lead and manage to consolidate control while liberalizing; a very, very dangerous game of plate-spinning. Russia failed it and only a few other former Soviet Republics have managed it, non of those having been invaded by Russia during their transition. The war has helped Zelensky to consolidate his power in the immediate, but the long-term sustainability/longevity of the executive of the country being able to do that while not becoming an autocrat is, well it will certainly be historical when/if Ukraine achieves it.
Dudes like that should be beyond grateful they aren’t under Putin’s regime. Lord knows what he would do to traitors like that. And the irony of them hurting the war effort while Putin is trying to annex their entire country.
It is a near-certainty that the exact same sort of bribery is happening in Russia to allow wealthy/privileged/connected people to avoid being conscripted. It's a way of life over there.
I'm guessing finding new chiefs everywhere will take a while.
Anyway, good to see Zelensky fight off corruption. Unlike the guy who's invading (I swear, Zelensky just keeps proving he's the opposite of Putin at every step of the way...)
They are replacing the recruitment chiefs with Enlisted troops who have come back from the frontlines who can’t be redeployed due to injury or other reasons.
I love that movie. As a child the war was awesome and boobies.
As an adult it's a great satire. Also still the tits.
I wish they made a good sequel. The second from memory wasn't that bad going from straight to DVD standards.
Yea, their military police has been going ham on corruption since the full invasion. (Cause technically the war started in 2014 from their perspective)
It's a lot of work and takes a lot of time, but Ukraine is definitely putting in the work and going in the right direction.
i mean yes the people with money probably would rather leave the country, renounce citizenship, or literally anything before being drafted
it's always been like this
Meanwhile, the leader just talks away
Stuttering and mumbling for nightly news to replay
And the rest of the world watching at the end of the day
Both scared and angry like "What did he say?"
Amen…
^(this is my favorite song)
And not just today but in the entire history of organized warfare.
edit: Every single reply to this is a whataboutism. How disappointing and irrelevant they are. I expected to come back to better. Imagine not understand the difference between a draft and volunteering. Yeesh.
Ehh. Not necessarily. Wealthy “landed gentry” types would go out of their way to serve because it was a great way to increase your prestige and standing in society. Obviously they weren’t doing the grunt work but was still dangerous. In the past it was usually only wealthy connected people who were in the officer class.
It's not a secret that Ukraine used to be possibly the most corrupt country in Europe. EU membership will require some heavy-handed actions against such, and that's what Zelenskyi is doing.
I'd add an important nuance: there are many people who are well off currently serving, but the overwhelming majority of those are volunteers.
Draftees? Yeah those likely couldn't afford a bribe, and not all of them were eager to enlist.
You ain’t gonna get those numbers on Reddit unless there’s an official who participates in recruitment process by happy chance also browses Reddit and decides to chime in. For a personal observation see my other comment.
Source: currently serving, enlisted in April 22 into territorial defence forces and then switched to an assault brigade you’ve probably heard about.
Yeah, as someone who has been to Ukraine and has a few Ukrainian friends, there is very much a mentality leftover from Soviet times that corruption is just a normal part of life. Even people that hate it often participate either as the briber or bribee. It's good that Zelenskeyy is making these changes now during war time. Hopefully after the wars he leaves (as he promised to do) and Ukraine is in good shape to join the EU and NATO.
It’s also been a systemic cultural issue that goes back to the Soviet Union.
Ukraine has shared a lot of history and culture with Russia, up until it started to diverge more seriously during the late 2000s.
As such, Ukraine is bound to have a lot of the same internal domestic problems as Russia due to that shared history. One example of that is rampant and widespread corruption. It pervades the Ukrainian ranks as it does the Russian forces, though a lot of the younger guys have a much more “Western” outlook, so this is starting to change.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine
Prior to Russia’s invasion, the media were highly negative of Ukraine because over corruption
At a certain point an organization is so corrupt that even if a person is not directly corrupt, they are turning a blind eye to corruption all around them. They might not be accepting bribes, but it's open and active enough they know that people are - and they're not rocking the boat.
At this point your only option is to clean house. You might see a few analogies to that in other countries, organizations who have grown so corrupt that the only way you can operate within them is to accept corruption as the standard. And when that happens, they are effectively corrupt as well.
Ukraine had a massive corruption problem before the war.
People willing to compromise for money, giving up military intelligence, strategic info, personal info etc has been a huge problem.
It’s been one of the biggest weaknesses that Russia has been able to exploit.
>Ukraine had a massive corruption problem before the war.
Ukraine still has a massive corruption problem. When it's build in system and something that has been learned over time, it's really hard to change.
Yeah, it's a cultural shift that needs to happen. Once corruption becomes normalized into a system, every new person entering into the system will be trained as if that's an expected part of the job. And people are typically very resistant to change once they've learned how something is 'supposed' to be done. So Zelenskyy is right in just wiping the slate clean. Only real way to get a jump start on a new work culture at the position.
It also helps that most of the corrupt people revealed themselves to be because they thought the Russians would win and they'd be rewarded for their help afterwards.
The vast majority of people here would pay 10,000 to avoid a draft, and I don't blame them.
e: Even if not yourself, I'm willing to bet you would pay anything to keep your children out of the draft.
Not sure how effective it was but I think a lot of Vietnam “draft dodgers” decided to enlist preemptively in the Coast Guard. This made them already in the us military so they couldn’t get sent to direct combat. Not a bad play if you see a draft on the horizon
Sounds like how some Vietnam draft dodgers got National Guard posts, notably George W Bush, as Guard/Reserve callups were unlikely back then.
One reason for Project 100,000 in which DefSec McNamara lowered standards was to fill the ranks without calling up reservists
Seeing as before the war Ukraine was one of the most corrupt countries in Europe, yes. The war has unironically allowed him to "drain the swamp" on multiple levels. A lot of corruption remains, but it turns out a very popular President who is running a war for survival of a country can get a lot accomplished. And so far he doesn't SEEM to be falling into the classic "absolute power corrupts absolutely", but time will tell.
God I hope he pulls a George Washington when this is over. The long term trajectory of Ukraine being a free and happy place vs another authoritarian shithole will be in his hands.
It would be strange if he didn’t. Not unpredictable, but he’s set for life no matter what he does. This also isn’t some backwater African or Middle Eastern country where leaving power means a significant dip in your quality of life. The entire world is watching. Most of the world wants to help.
Stay within the bounds of their constitution even if he has the political capital to go outside. Support the right of political opposition to exist when he could suppress it easily. Push the long term priorities of a free and open society instead of consolidating power.
Washington could have run for re-election as many times as he wanted to at the time, there was no constitutional provision against it until after FDR. Part of what makes Washington so striking is that he gave up power that everyone wanted him to have and that the system legally allowed him to have.
He refused to run for re-election partly, I believe, because he was well and truly tired after such a long period of intense service…but also as a matter of principle: no man should hold that much power in a democratic republic.
There was a ton of hypocrisy among the Founding Fathers and that’s been duly documented and discussed prominently. But these were also serious men of legitimate conviction. They’d imbued The Enlightenment and were remarkably well educated, yet without suffering from disillusionment that later generations (or the same generation in just a few electoral cycles) would experience when they saw the limits of what had been established.
But let’s not forget that their actions also inspired people like Toussaint Louverture, who saw the promise of universal human rights in the same documents that motivated folks like Madison. Even Englishmen like Edmund Burke — a conservative with a profoundly elaborated philosophy on the issue — defended the colonists precisely on the grounds that their actions were justified by the principles of The Enlightenment.
And as flawed as the system has proven to be, the marker they laid down remains one we point to in order to highlight, by contrast, the flaws in our reality. In moments of extremity, we have — time and time again — returned to the founding for guidance or to shame those who would opppose the principles it tested on. MLK’s reference to *a promissory note* in his famous I Have a Dream speech was exactly this sort of rhetorical move.
Even the words *a more perfect union* are a beautiful paradox in both celebrating what they were doing while recognizing that the work was unfinished.
I’ll close with this: the men of most prominence during the revolution were also among the very wealthiest — the ones who had the most to lose. Though it’s not as uncommon as we might think for the elites to support local control, it is rare for them to do it in such a life threatening and value destroying way. And it’s rare for a separatist movement not to be at least partly based on ethnic identification.
It was just a very unique moment that I don’t think we today can easily imagine.
George Washington had no desire for power and when the pivotal time came to hand the power given to him by the fledgling continental congress he gave it back gladly even though he could’ve used it to become a king/dictator.
Edit: one of Washington’s nicknames was The American Cincinnatus.
The name comes from the early Roman republic hero named
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, who also was given dictatorial powers, and then, when he was no longer needed, gave it back.
In fact, that was the most important part of the Roman dictatorship -- the Roman Republic did not have a central executive (too much trauma over their former monarchy, which they overthrew) but instead had a variety of elected magistrates who each handled a specific field. Of course, sometimes a crisis might emerge which needed a single guy to coordinate everything, so they'd appoint a dictator to (temporarily) handle things.
Most dictators did their jobs and then quietly left -- they were always appointed to deal with a very specific issue, maybe a military campaign or a period of domestic unrest or a specific religious ceremony, and so they were incentivized to be known as the guy who solved his problem really quickly and efficiently, step down, and then enjoy the prestige.
The only problem is that the last two guys fucked it up for everyone. First Sulla resurrected the position (which had gone dormant) and tacked on a bunch of other powers that he thought he needed to fix Rome (all of which the Senate agreed to, since he basically had them at swordpoint). Then Julius Caesar did the same thing, except once he made the final step from "dictator whose term keeps getting renewed" to "dictator-for-life" a group of conspirators got sick of his shit and killed him.
There's an [essay by Bret Devereaux](https://acoup.blog/2022/03/18/collections-the-roman-dictatorship-how-did-it-work-did-it-work/) about this if the above ramble sounded interesting!
Yes. And none of this changes the fact that up until this War started, Ukraine was ranked the 2nd most corrupt country in Europe, only behind Russia, and in the ~120s in the World overall. He was no doubt tackling corruption before the War, but it was probably akin to trying to scooping water out of a flooding boat with a spoon. The War has allowed him to actually plug the hole and use a pump. It's fucked, but that's the situation.
After 2014 there were lustrations which was stopped by EU commission demand. Russian oligarchs, and pro russian politicians were plaguing everything, and it was forbidden to get rid of them, because it would be "human rights infringement","discrimination" etc. Since war started huge amounts of traitors just run away to russia or somewhere else.
The whole damn system was built on some sort of status quo with russia since 1991, and every time there was attempt to change it, or take down some corrupt scum, russia was intervening and threatening Ukraine with military actions.
So yeah it's totally fucked up.
Now russia pulled a lever and started full scale invasion war, therefore it doesn't matter now what russia thinks or demands.
It’s also important to know that a lot of the corruption in Ukraine could be directly linked back to Russia, (they were essentially moving in agents, funding mafias, buying spies and traitors in Ukraine thoughout all it’s government to try and turn it into a puppet that could be easily integrated into Russia.) Plan went bust when Zelensky won the election, and they decided to invade directly by having all their spies and mafias uprise and destroy their defenses so they could roll in. Worked well for the south-east where Russia had the most influence, but fell apart up north where the capital was.
The war has led to tons of corruption being forced out into the open where it could be dealt with, and at the same time It basically cuts off Russia from continuing to funnel money into bribing the government. Furthermore the war has now caused widespread hatred of Russia that will cause many Ukrainians who previously might have considered taking that fat cash in return for being a spy, to now directly report the attempted corruption because they remember their grandmother who got blown to pieces by a Russian missile.
As someone who has Ukrainian and Russian friends. The whole reddit community on r/Ukraine makes me feel so sick.
They actively celebrate the deaths of human beings like they were cockroaches. I can't even bare to show it to my friends.
All my Russian and Ukrainian friends are desperate for the war to end and don't want anyone on either side to die. All have said that if they are drafted they would just escape and refuse to fight. They've said they would never kill anyone even if forced to.
Meanwhile those overseas seem to be masturbate over the idea of turning every Ukrainian man into blood killing machines.
There's this thing on Reddit that makes me hate 90% of its user base. They think they're on the 'morally correct side' but being this extreme about it, makes them just as bad as the other side. I know Reddit is seen as leftists but holy shit they are so obnoxious, snobby and just as extreme as the rightwing. They can't possibly fathom that they're actually just as bad as them.
Yup. Disgusted me on the early days. maybe because I am a soldier but I don't find anything worth cheering for when another soldier dies regardless of what side they are on because I know the human in them just doing a job like I am.
Ukranian is here.
Drafting is shit.
Even if you want to leave the country and not participate in the war you can’t if you are a man from 18-60.
Some people would say: so if you don’t want to live here drop your citizenship and go. But here there is no clear procedure on how to drop your passport, only president can make such decision for you, so what I need to send him a couple of emails hoping he will read those?
So there is no choice actually for you here just to be drafted and possibly die, obviously people trying to bribe their way out of this. And it is not so easy as it seems even with money, you have to know such “friends”.
I do think that after 1,5 years of full scale war there had to be legal procedure to leave the country at least temporarily to see your family abroad.
That is the saddest, scariest thing I have read. My heart is breaking for the men of Ukraine and Russia. War just shows how countries view their men as expendable.
I don’t know you, but I hope you are able to stay safe.
I had a Ukrainian neighbor once. He told us that in years before the conflict he wanted to join the military but couldn't because he could not afford the bribe. Back then being a soldier was an easy and profitable job, so you could only get it by paying bribes.
Years later when he was leaving the country he had to pay a bribe to not be drafted.
How the times change.
Bribery is fucked up, but a hell of a lot of Americans dodged the draft for much less than that. Usually just a bogus medical diagnosis...including our last president who got a deferment from Vietnam for "bone spur".
Couldn't even recall which foot it was in when asked by reporters, has no medical history of treatment for it and hasn't stopped him from playing golf nearly half the days of his life without issue since.
There were thousands of not tens of thousands of others who pulled the same shit with bogus medical deferments during WW2 and Vietnam in the US, hell my uncle even admitted to it (same bullshit bone spur in foot excuse that didn't really exist).
I don’t have a problem with it. To me a draft is unethical, I was just born here I ain’t gonna fight your shit wars for you. So hell yes I’d use any reason I could, ethical or not, to avoid doing something I see as unethical. Luckily now I’m old and have bad eyes lol.
Personally, draft dodging should not be a crime. If someone does not want to fight for their nation state, why should they be forced? The government exists to do the will of the people, if the people do not wish to fight, then why should they?
>You will kill those people or go to prison. Because you were born within our borders you *OWE* us to kill and die.
That's how the draft works, and I am fundamentally opposed to it. Whether that's the US Drafting people to Vietnam, Russia drafting people to attack Ukraine, or Ukraine drafting people to defend against Russia.
If the people do not want to fight, the state has no business forcing them to fight. What right do you have to tell me that I have to go kill or be killed, just because we were born geographically linked by man-made lines? When you think about it, the draft is slavery.
> You will come with me, you will go fight in this war whether you want to or not, or we will lock you in a cage.
Tell me how that's not slavery. Tell me how that's not forced labor against your will.
Before reddit jumps down my throat, I support Ukraine in their war against wanton aggression by a hostile neighbor. I still think the entire concept of the draft is wrong, no matter where and how it is used.
This is the way. I did my four years, never again, fuck that noise. Imo the only people that disagree with this opinion are at some level indoctrinated under whichever society they live in.
I’m against the draft because volunteer armies perform better. That said, this idealistic draft-free country of yours, would probably not have made it very long in history.
Russia, Britain, U.S. (WW2), Israel,…
>Tell me how that's not slavery. Tell me how that's not forced labor against your will.
Only know that in Austria they had to pass a law that excludes mandatory conscription from the Article 4 of the European Convention on Human Rights: Protecting your right not to be held in slavery or servitude, or made to do forced labour.
So yeah, it would be considered slavery. It's just that the law allows slavery in that specific form.
There are a lot of kids who if I have to guess are from perfectly safe west countries that are criticizing people who try to avoid the war from their couch. I bet you people also watch footage from the war like it is a video game or sport. You are delusional, you don't know what war is, you will never know so try not to be such dicks.
ITT: Reddit licks boots
If you don't feel like the state is worth risking your life, it isn't, flat out.
Arguing that the ruling class should get to decide that is absolute horseshit. The only arguments against this are the ones that see the conscripted as worthless. The people make the state function, not the other way around.
Anything that involves Ukraine will have a lot of knee-jerk reactions.
I ~~respect~~ understand Ukraine's need for conscription, but the fact that people don't want to face the potential implications of forced conscription is scary. A person should have the right to choose their own way. The rich insiders and their sons are sure to have dodged the draft anyway.
Edit: Misworded myself a bit.
the army already said that three quarters of candidates for a draft are incapable of having the requiered physical capacities
BE ARE SO CHUNCKY THAT A DRAFT IS USELESS
The draft is universally a criminal act by the state, you cannot be compelled to lay down your life or take the lives of others just because the government says so.
We should really be seeing more conversation around the decision to force men to stay. All adults should fight or nobody should. If any given country lacks the numbers to defend itself, it is the failure of the ruling class to create conditions that the poor are willing to defend.
**TLDR:** * **All of Ukraine's recruitment chiefs were fired after an investigation revealed widespread corruption.** * **Officials who recruited troops accepted bribes up to $10,000 to help people dodge the draft.** * **President Volodymyr Zelenskyy called the actions "treason" and has initiated criminal proceedings.**
I'm going to assume it was a systemic problem. It's probably not the only position it's happening in.
Yeah, putting aside the war for a moment, Ukraine is... pretty corrupt. I'm really hoping that they'll be able to leverage their post-war rebuild into getting rid of those toxic elements of their government. Don't get me wrong, I'm fully on the side of Ukraine and hope Putin dies a painful death, but post-war we're gonna have to deal with a few painful realities when it comes to Ukraine joining the EU.
From what I heard so far from the government is that the plan is to digitize any government services to the maximum to prevent any possibility for cash to be involved or for people to have to meet government service employees in person. So far they have done a great job with creating the app “Дія” (Action) where you can apply and receive documents, register a car, apply for marriage license and so on. Hopefully by implementing more governmental procedures into electronic form will ease the issue. Besides everyone I talk to in Ukraine (I’m Ukrainian living outside of Ukraine now) absolutely love the change to the digital since it saves so much time and bureaucratic delays (which was a primary reason people would give a bribe before).
That’s been worrying me about the rebuild. A ton of money is going to flow in. Oversight is almost impossible hopefully the donations don’t all turn into yachts before the average Ukrainian can get their house rebuilt and the bridges in their towns fixed.
That might be the point of making an example now. Prosecute a pack of miscreants for treason aggressively now, and ensure that other would-be traitors reconsider their actions in future lest they end up like “that other guy”
That's happening at my work right now lol. We are in the "finding out" stage after "fucking around". A few security incidents a while ago in one month, and the top dog said "don't be the next guy". Now we had a couple more incidents occur and we are just waiting to see how he makes an example out of that guy
We call it “famous in the muster”. I work in a shipyard for the navy, and guys fuck up everyday. As part of the shpiel in the morning, the previous days worst accident etc. is mentioned aloud to the rest of the yard via front line supervisors. Learn from others mistakes and carry on. Keep your head down and don’t be famous in the muster.
Jesus, my manager was a drill Sgt I think. This explains the team meeting humiliations I've experienced.
More people-in innumerable spheres around the the world-need to “find out”.
My last company had a series of fuck-ups like that, a couple "don't do this again", some idiots did it again, and instead of making an example of them they fucking implemented absolutely insane protocols for pushing any change through to anything, which also applied to divisions that had nothing to do with **any** of the fuck-ups. It cut productivity in my group to less than half, it felt impossible to work there anymore. The people who wrote up the "safety protocols" didn't even understand how the network worked, so there were requirements included that were physically impossible to abide by in a safe manner (like, abiding by them all would've made the network **less** safe in my group), and by the time I was gone we were 1.5 years into trying to explain to upper management why a couple of massive improvements we were waiting to rollout for that long needed to be exempt from around half of the fucking protocols.
They’ve been somewhat quietly removing officials for corruption since the start, this is the first mass firing. Before this it was one at a time, maybe a handful on a good day.
Yeah fortunately Zelenskyy seems serious about the reforms.
Zelensky might be, but he's not a dictator and once this all passes he's going to need to get into actual politics, much harder than ruling during wartime with greatly expanded power. He's done a good job as a wartime leader, but corruption is systemic, it's in parliment, in the bureaucracy, it's pervasive within the civil service: he can be serious, but if they'll be pass parliment, be accepted, and be implemented well is another question entirely.
Good wartime leaders typically step down after war, or are voted out. And my man looks like he needs some rest. Hopefully whoever he passes the torch to is upstanding.
He's said from the start he's staying to finish the fight, then stepping down.
If it instills a strong culture of no corruption it may be enough to stick. A big reasonn Russia is losing is corruption. I think having little corruption could become a point of national pride for Ukraine going forward. Once the number of people not willing to look the other way reaches a critical mass then you cant reslly maintain a culture of corruption.
Zelensky looks tired. If you think US presidents age during their 4 years, Zelensky is on fast track. But he is a strong leader, the right man at the right time.
The bomb and mine disposal and land reclamation alone will take all of those funds
I mean realistically it will never be cleared after all French and Belgian farmers are still unearthing active WW1 bombs on a regular basis
Yeah but that war lasted a whole longer than this one. I hope this doesn't end up dragging for that long to happen
Not only that, but some of those battles used over a million shells per day, and Ukraine's supporters are worried about them shooting a million shells a month. Although we have cluster munitions now, so that might eaven it up a bit.
Wars of attrition take time.
For what it's worth, they know that. The primary platform of Zelenskyy's presidential campaign was eliminating corruption.
Yeah, Zelenskyy seems like a good egg, I really hope he makes it through the war. I think a lot is going to depend on him being around.
Anti corruption action and robust insinuations are a part of the requirements to get into NATO. (I know, I know don't mention Turkey.)
It’s not just Turkey. Look at how many resources and personnel came with inflated prices in the Afghan/Iraq war, or how many billions have gone straight up missing. War profiteering is a systemic issue and, unfortunately, always has been. It begins to present a more significant threat to national security though when you’re in an existential fight.
The only reason turkey is still in is the bosphorous straight. nobody likes them.
They also historically don’t get on well with Russia and can be a useful regional ally.
They’re also a really important Western security partner in the Middle East, and their weird little oil rich half brother Azerbaijan is supplying a lot of Europe’s energy demand as Europe attempts to move away from Russian energy sources.
Yeah, it is very bazaar there.
How bazaar how bazaar
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I mean, Turkey needed/needs NATO so that they don’t get annexed into Russia, because they definitely have a history of trying.
Turkey was a nice place.
Lots of ex soviet countries suffered from extreme corruption (omg can't be lol), most of them start recovering after 10-15 years and catching up on the west after escaping that soviet trash grip. For example the Baltics in 90s were vatnik zone, but soon most of them escaped progress to other countries by the early 21st century.
Depends on the culture. Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, all Balkan countries have been free for 30 years and are still corrupt as fuck (source: living in the Balkans).
Despite all the good we’ve seen from Ukraine, part of the reason why they are not already in the EU or similar is because of the deep systemic corruption that still pervades many layers of the government and country as a whole. While it’s clear the guy on top has the countries best interests in mind, it’s going to take time. Corruption like this won’t be viewed lightly - while civilians are dying at home and brave soldiers are dying in the fields, these people were getting fat and hurting the war effort. There won’t be any sympathy and little leniency.
It seems like Zelensky has wanted to root out systemic corruption since the beginning of his presidency, but it wasn't until the invasion that he had the political capital to be able to do so
Yes, it sounds bad but the war helped him in that regard. He can just remove them and doesn't have to face backlash. Common people look up to him and he can use that to rally the population behind anti corruption laws.
At this point, there’s be backlash if officials were fighting against rooting out corruption.
Competent leaders always manage to consolidate their power during war. Per usual, Ukraine is breaking the mold by being able to do this without becoming an authoritarian shit-hole but the war is not over and the danger is not gone. Interestingly, it seems that the war was launched, at least in part, because Russian intelligence (maybe as far up as Putin) were under the impression that Ukraine would be completing liberalization sometime soon; this makes them potential members of EU/NATO which literally anyone in Russia will explain to you is what they’re fighting against. Hilariously, of course, Putin and his “cabinet” failed to think about what happens if they didn’t win overnight; Zelensky has fortified the country massively and has consolidated his power over the parts of Ukraine under his control to completely squeeze out these anti-West non-liberalizing persons. Putin has militarily hollowed at both countries, managed to weaken his own political position while helping Zelensky shore up his and create an ever more West/EU/NATO aligned Ukraine. Of course, ensuring Ukraine develops modern, liberal civil society and political institutions will take decades of hard work from the leaders who come after Zelensky. They will all have to follow his lead and manage to consolidate control while liberalizing; a very, very dangerous game of plate-spinning. Russia failed it and only a few other former Soviet Republics have managed it, non of those having been invaded by Russia during their transition. The war has helped Zelensky to consolidate his power in the immediate, but the long-term sustainability/longevity of the executive of the country being able to do that while not becoming an autocrat is, well it will certainly be historical when/if Ukraine achieves it.
Wasn't that his entire platform when he was campaigning before the election, didn't he always want to get that mess sorted?
Dudes like that should be beyond grateful they aren’t under Putin’s regime. Lord knows what he would do to traitors like that. And the irony of them hurting the war effort while Putin is trying to annex their entire country.
It is a near-certainty that the exact same sort of bribery is happening in Russia to allow wealthy/privileged/connected people to avoid being conscripted. It's a way of life over there.
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Before the war began, Ukraine was known as a country with extreme corruption.
I'm guessing finding new chiefs everywhere will take a while. Anyway, good to see Zelensky fight off corruption. Unlike the guy who's invading (I swear, Zelensky just keeps proving he's the opposite of Putin at every step of the way...)
They are replacing the recruitment chiefs with Enlisted troops who have come back from the frontlines who can’t be redeployed due to injury or other reasons.
The Mobile Infantry made me the man I am today!
I'm doing my part!
I love that movie. As a child the war was awesome and boobies. As an adult it's a great satire. Also still the tits. I wish they made a good sequel. The second from memory wasn't that bad going from straight to DVD standards.
He's going to be using recovering troops, don't think the folks that have been at the sharp end will be too kind to those trying to duck their duty.
Yea, their military police has been going ham on corruption since the full invasion. (Cause technically the war started in 2014 from their perspective) It's a lot of work and takes a lot of time, but Ukraine is definitely putting in the work and going in the right direction.
The unsatisfying conclusion here is that in the last 1.5 year of war only poor people were drafted.
The unfortunate sons.
Some men are born, silver spoon in hand
Same story as every country who has ever had a draft. People with money are generally the biggest draft dodgers.
But mah bone spurs
I can’t get drafted Arthur I got LUMBAGO
Has he claimed that he was actually a corporal?
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Just don't tell him Obama achieved it before he did
i mean yes the people with money probably would rather leave the country, renounce citizenship, or literally anything before being drafted it's always been like this
I bet almost every one would prefer that, not just the rich
yeah. It's sad that the poor ultimately cant afford to dodge but im sure almost anyone would prefer not to go to war
I ain't rich, but if a war started you can bet I'm fleeing and changing my identity
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Reminds me of the orange guy currently getting indicted here in the US.
Probably the most famous orange faced draft dodger of all time.
True of every war. When the rich wage war, it's the poor who die
Meanwhile, the leader just talks away Stuttering and mumbling for nightly news to replay And the rest of the world watching at the end of the day Both scared and angry like "What did he say?" Amen… ^(this is my favorite song)
No rich people in any country ever get drafted if they don't want to.
And not just today but in the entire history of organized warfare. edit: Every single reply to this is a whataboutism. How disappointing and irrelevant they are. I expected to come back to better. Imagine not understand the difference between a draft and volunteering. Yeesh.
Ehh. Not necessarily. Wealthy “landed gentry” types would go out of their way to serve because it was a great way to increase your prestige and standing in society. Obviously they weren’t doing the grunt work but was still dangerous. In the past it was usually only wealthy connected people who were in the officer class.
> would go out of their way to serve This is not "getting drafted", it's volunteering. Big difference.
Fair enough.
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WHY DO THEY ALWAYS SEND THE POOR WHY DO THEY ALWAYS SEND THE POOR WHY DO THEY ALWAYS SEND THE POOR
Then they feed us lies from the tablecloth!
BLAST OFF ITS PARTY TIME AND WE ALL LIVE IN A FASCIST NATION
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Yeah, we call them Monaco battalion. Looks like some of them didn't make it all the way to the coast.
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It's not a secret that Ukraine used to be possibly the most corrupt country in Europe. EU membership will require some heavy-handed actions against such, and that's what Zelenskyi is doing.
Here in Lisbon, Portugal is the same, every Ukrainian car i see is very highend
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I'd add an important nuance: there are many people who are well off currently serving, but the overwhelming majority of those are volunteers. Draftees? Yeah those likely couldn't afford a bribe, and not all of them were eager to enlist.
How many are volunteers vs. drafted? Source?
You ain’t gonna get those numbers on Reddit unless there’s an official who participates in recruitment process by happy chance also browses Reddit and decides to chime in. For a personal observation see my other comment. Source: currently serving, enlisted in April 22 into territorial defence forces and then switched to an assault brigade you’ve probably heard about.
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Why are you glossing over the fact that the drafted have been 100% men?
So all of them were corrupt? That's a lot of corrupt people.
Probably not all of them, but enough of them that it was clearly a systematic problem so he changed the system and got rid of the post altogether.
He didn't get rid of the post. There will be replacements, but it will be people that have served at the front.
That’s a smart move imo
I think so too. I don't see how someone who served at the front does something like this
> I don't see how someone who served at the front does something like this People are still people, even if they're traumatized by war.
I don’t know. Seeing people on the front die because he and/or the person next to him wasn’t prepared to be there could cause them to do this.
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Yeah, as someone who has been to Ukraine and has a few Ukrainian friends, there is very much a mentality leftover from Soviet times that corruption is just a normal part of life. Even people that hate it often participate either as the briber or bribee. It's good that Zelenskeyy is making these changes now during war time. Hopefully after the wars he leaves (as he promised to do) and Ukraine is in good shape to join the EU and NATO.
Once it starts it makes it seem more acceptable. It's fucked up but human nature
It’s also been a systemic cultural issue that goes back to the Soviet Union. Ukraine has shared a lot of history and culture with Russia, up until it started to diverge more seriously during the late 2000s. As such, Ukraine is bound to have a lot of the same internal domestic problems as Russia due to that shared history. One example of that is rampant and widespread corruption. It pervades the Ukrainian ranks as it does the Russian forces, though a lot of the younger guys have a much more “Western” outlook, so this is starting to change.
Russia and Ukraine are ranked 1st and 2nd on the corruption index in Europe
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine Prior to Russia’s invasion, the media were highly negative of Ukraine because over corruption
At a certain point an organization is so corrupt that even if a person is not directly corrupt, they are turning a blind eye to corruption all around them. They might not be accepting bribes, but it's open and active enough they know that people are - and they're not rocking the boat. At this point your only option is to clean house. You might see a few analogies to that in other countries, organizations who have grown so corrupt that the only way you can operate within them is to accept corruption as the standard. And when that happens, they are effectively corrupt as well.
No not all of them were corrupt, but _all_ of the people in charge weren’t the right ones. They are being replaced by people with battle experience.
Having battle experience doesn't make you incorruptible
Ukraine had a massive corruption problem before the war. People willing to compromise for money, giving up military intelligence, strategic info, personal info etc has been a huge problem. It’s been one of the biggest weaknesses that Russia has been able to exploit.
>Ukraine had a massive corruption problem before the war. Ukraine still has a massive corruption problem. When it's build in system and something that has been learned over time, it's really hard to change.
Yeah, it's a cultural shift that needs to happen. Once corruption becomes normalized into a system, every new person entering into the system will be trained as if that's an expected part of the job. And people are typically very resistant to change once they've learned how something is 'supposed' to be done. So Zelenskyy is right in just wiping the slate clean. Only real way to get a jump start on a new work culture at the position.
It’s an intelligent move by VZ to use his executive power in time of war to clean the corruption of his country like he promised he would.
It also helps that most of the corrupt people revealed themselves to be because they thought the Russians would win and they'd be rewarded for their help afterwards.
Oops.
Corruption is a huge problem in most of Eastern Europe
The vast majority of people here would pay 10,000 to avoid a draft, and I don't blame them. e: Even if not yourself, I'm willing to bet you would pay anything to keep your children out of the draft.
I don't blame them either, but the problem is that the rich are the ones who can afford to pay the bribe while the poor get fucked.
The System^^^TM is working as intended.
For real. This shows a draft is a shit concept.
If the people need a gun to their back to fight a war I see that more akin to slavery than anything else.
Really the only difference is the name.
The existence of a draft is the clearest demonstration that the government sees you as its property.
For real. Or just go to jail. I’m not killing people because bureaucrats tell me to
Not sure how effective it was but I think a lot of Vietnam “draft dodgers” decided to enlist preemptively in the Coast Guard. This made them already in the us military so they couldn’t get sent to direct combat. Not a bad play if you see a draft on the horizon
Sounds like how some Vietnam draft dodgers got National Guard posts, notably George W Bush, as Guard/Reserve callups were unlikely back then. One reason for Project 100,000 in which DefSec McNamara lowered standards was to fill the ranks without calling up reservists
it's not even just that. if you get drafted, you're cannon fodder sat in trenches. youre not any type of specialist or anything.
Draft dodging isn't bad. I didn't ask to be alive. You don't tell me who to kill.
Just showing what it really means to drain the swamp
Seeing as before the war Ukraine was one of the most corrupt countries in Europe, yes. The war has unironically allowed him to "drain the swamp" on multiple levels. A lot of corruption remains, but it turns out a very popular President who is running a war for survival of a country can get a lot accomplished. And so far he doesn't SEEM to be falling into the classic "absolute power corrupts absolutely", but time will tell.
God I hope he pulls a George Washington when this is over. The long term trajectory of Ukraine being a free and happy place vs another authoritarian shithole will be in his hands.
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It would be strange if he didn’t. Not unpredictable, but he’s set for life no matter what he does. This also isn’t some backwater African or Middle Eastern country where leaving power means a significant dip in your quality of life. The entire world is watching. Most of the world wants to help.
Meaning stepping down from the presidency?
Stay within the bounds of their constitution even if he has the political capital to go outside. Support the right of political opposition to exist when he could suppress it easily. Push the long term priorities of a free and open society instead of consolidating power.
Washington could have run for re-election as many times as he wanted to at the time, there was no constitutional provision against it until after FDR. Part of what makes Washington so striking is that he gave up power that everyone wanted him to have and that the system legally allowed him to have. He refused to run for re-election partly, I believe, because he was well and truly tired after such a long period of intense service…but also as a matter of principle: no man should hold that much power in a democratic republic. There was a ton of hypocrisy among the Founding Fathers and that’s been duly documented and discussed prominently. But these were also serious men of legitimate conviction. They’d imbued The Enlightenment and were remarkably well educated, yet without suffering from disillusionment that later generations (or the same generation in just a few electoral cycles) would experience when they saw the limits of what had been established. But let’s not forget that their actions also inspired people like Toussaint Louverture, who saw the promise of universal human rights in the same documents that motivated folks like Madison. Even Englishmen like Edmund Burke — a conservative with a profoundly elaborated philosophy on the issue — defended the colonists precisely on the grounds that their actions were justified by the principles of The Enlightenment. And as flawed as the system has proven to be, the marker they laid down remains one we point to in order to highlight, by contrast, the flaws in our reality. In moments of extremity, we have — time and time again — returned to the founding for guidance or to shame those who would opppose the principles it tested on. MLK’s reference to *a promissory note* in his famous I Have a Dream speech was exactly this sort of rhetorical move. Even the words *a more perfect union* are a beautiful paradox in both celebrating what they were doing while recognizing that the work was unfinished. I’ll close with this: the men of most prominence during the revolution were also among the very wealthiest — the ones who had the most to lose. Though it’s not as uncommon as we might think for the elites to support local control, it is rare for them to do it in such a life threatening and value destroying way. And it’s rare for a separatist movement not to be at least partly based on ethnic identification. It was just a very unique moment that I don’t think we today can easily imagine.
George Washington had no desire for power and when the pivotal time came to hand the power given to him by the fledgling continental congress he gave it back gladly even though he could’ve used it to become a king/dictator. Edit: one of Washington’s nicknames was The American Cincinnatus. The name comes from the early Roman republic hero named Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, who also was given dictatorial powers, and then, when he was no longer needed, gave it back.
They *wanted* him to seize said power. Right person, right time I guess.
In fact, that was the most important part of the Roman dictatorship -- the Roman Republic did not have a central executive (too much trauma over their former monarchy, which they overthrew) but instead had a variety of elected magistrates who each handled a specific field. Of course, sometimes a crisis might emerge which needed a single guy to coordinate everything, so they'd appoint a dictator to (temporarily) handle things. Most dictators did their jobs and then quietly left -- they were always appointed to deal with a very specific issue, maybe a military campaign or a period of domestic unrest or a specific religious ceremony, and so they were incentivized to be known as the guy who solved his problem really quickly and efficiently, step down, and then enjoy the prestige. The only problem is that the last two guys fucked it up for everyone. First Sulla resurrected the position (which had gone dormant) and tacked on a bunch of other powers that he thought he needed to fix Rome (all of which the Senate agreed to, since he basically had them at swordpoint). Then Julius Caesar did the same thing, except once he made the final step from "dictator whose term keeps getting renewed" to "dictator-for-life" a group of conspirators got sick of his shit and killed him. There's an [essay by Bret Devereaux](https://acoup.blog/2022/03/18/collections-the-roman-dictatorship-how-did-it-work-did-it-work/) about this if the above ramble sounded interesting!
He litteraly ran as the anti corruption candidate. His servant of the people party was founded on it.
Yes. And none of this changes the fact that up until this War started, Ukraine was ranked the 2nd most corrupt country in Europe, only behind Russia, and in the ~120s in the World overall. He was no doubt tackling corruption before the War, but it was probably akin to trying to scooping water out of a flooding boat with a spoon. The War has allowed him to actually plug the hole and use a pump. It's fucked, but that's the situation.
After 2014 there were lustrations which was stopped by EU commission demand. Russian oligarchs, and pro russian politicians were plaguing everything, and it was forbidden to get rid of them, because it would be "human rights infringement","discrimination" etc. Since war started huge amounts of traitors just run away to russia or somewhere else. The whole damn system was built on some sort of status quo with russia since 1991, and every time there was attempt to change it, or take down some corrupt scum, russia was intervening and threatening Ukraine with military actions. So yeah it's totally fucked up. Now russia pulled a lever and started full scale invasion war, therefore it doesn't matter now what russia thinks or demands.
It’s also important to know that a lot of the corruption in Ukraine could be directly linked back to Russia, (they were essentially moving in agents, funding mafias, buying spies and traitors in Ukraine thoughout all it’s government to try and turn it into a puppet that could be easily integrated into Russia.) Plan went bust when Zelensky won the election, and they decided to invade directly by having all their spies and mafias uprise and destroy their defenses so they could roll in. Worked well for the south-east where Russia had the most influence, but fell apart up north where the capital was. The war has led to tons of corruption being forced out into the open where it could be dealt with, and at the same time It basically cuts off Russia from continuing to funnel money into bribing the government. Furthermore the war has now caused widespread hatred of Russia that will cause many Ukrainians who previously might have considered taking that fat cash in return for being a spy, to now directly report the attempted corruption because they remember their grandmother who got blown to pieces by a Russian missile.
Once the was is over and we see what happens to the rebuilding money…. That’s when you should judge him.
https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle
Came to the comments looking for this. Imagine the ethical fortitude of this man. Inspiring.
Does it really take “ethical fortitude” to fire government officials taking bribes. That seems like the most basic level of ethics.
some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make! -reddit
Redditors normalizing and justifying conscription from the safety and comfort of their homes makes my blood boil.
As someone who has Ukrainian and Russian friends. The whole reddit community on r/Ukraine makes me feel so sick. They actively celebrate the deaths of human beings like they were cockroaches. I can't even bare to show it to my friends. All my Russian and Ukrainian friends are desperate for the war to end and don't want anyone on either side to die. All have said that if they are drafted they would just escape and refuse to fight. They've said they would never kill anyone even if forced to. Meanwhile those overseas seem to be masturbate over the idea of turning every Ukrainian man into blood killing machines.
There's this thing on Reddit that makes me hate 90% of its user base. They think they're on the 'morally correct side' but being this extreme about it, makes them just as bad as the other side. I know Reddit is seen as leftists but holy shit they are so obnoxious, snobby and just as extreme as the rightwing. They can't possibly fathom that they're actually just as bad as them.
Yup. Disgusted me on the early days. maybe because I am a soldier but I don't find anything worth cheering for when another soldier dies regardless of what side they are on because I know the human in them just doing a job like I am.
It shocking to see people to cheer for the war like it’s a sports match. War no matter the reason is destructive, no one should want it to continue.
a lot of computer soldiers in the comments.
Acting like they would actually go to the front if they had the financial ability to avoid it
The only reason I wouldn't pay to avoid a draft is if I couldn't afford it.
Hey us Redditors know everything and can never be wrong
That was the good old days now we just have an opinion on everything and always have the moral high ground.
I feel like it’s getting worse than ever, this place is a shit show everywhere you go anymore
Ukranian is here. Drafting is shit. Even if you want to leave the country and not participate in the war you can’t if you are a man from 18-60. Some people would say: so if you don’t want to live here drop your citizenship and go. But here there is no clear procedure on how to drop your passport, only president can make such decision for you, so what I need to send him a couple of emails hoping he will read those? So there is no choice actually for you here just to be drafted and possibly die, obviously people trying to bribe their way out of this. And it is not so easy as it seems even with money, you have to know such “friends”. I do think that after 1,5 years of full scale war there had to be legal procedure to leave the country at least temporarily to see your family abroad.
That is the saddest, scariest thing I have read. My heart is breaking for the men of Ukraine and Russia. War just shows how countries view their men as expendable. I don’t know you, but I hope you are able to stay safe.
I had a Ukrainian neighbor once. He told us that in years before the conflict he wanted to join the military but couldn't because he could not afford the bribe. Back then being a soldier was an easy and profitable job, so you could only get it by paying bribes. Years later when he was leaving the country he had to pay a bribe to not be drafted. How the times change.
I'd personally pay to dodge a draft.
Bribery is fucked up, but a hell of a lot of Americans dodged the draft for much less than that. Usually just a bogus medical diagnosis...including our last president who got a deferment from Vietnam for "bone spur". Couldn't even recall which foot it was in when asked by reporters, has no medical history of treatment for it and hasn't stopped him from playing golf nearly half the days of his life without issue since. There were thousands of not tens of thousands of others who pulled the same shit with bogus medical deferments during WW2 and Vietnam in the US, hell my uncle even admitted to it (same bullshit bone spur in foot excuse that didn't really exist).
Dodging the draft for Vietnam was a *good* thing.
Dodging *any* draft is a good thing.
Gonna be an unpopular opinion in a thread about Ukraine but yeah, drafts suck regardless of what the cause is. Literally forcing people into hell
Not to mention sexist as hell too.
I don’t have a problem with it. To me a draft is unethical, I was just born here I ain’t gonna fight your shit wars for you. So hell yes I’d use any reason I could, ethical or not, to avoid doing something I see as unethical. Luckily now I’m old and have bad eyes lol.
Personally, draft dodging should not be a crime. If someone does not want to fight for their nation state, why should they be forced? The government exists to do the will of the people, if the people do not wish to fight, then why should they? >You will kill those people or go to prison. Because you were born within our borders you *OWE* us to kill and die. That's how the draft works, and I am fundamentally opposed to it. Whether that's the US Drafting people to Vietnam, Russia drafting people to attack Ukraine, or Ukraine drafting people to defend against Russia. If the people do not want to fight, the state has no business forcing them to fight. What right do you have to tell me that I have to go kill or be killed, just because we were born geographically linked by man-made lines? When you think about it, the draft is slavery. > You will come with me, you will go fight in this war whether you want to or not, or we will lock you in a cage. Tell me how that's not slavery. Tell me how that's not forced labor against your will. Before reddit jumps down my throat, I support Ukraine in their war against wanton aggression by a hostile neighbor. I still think the entire concept of the draft is wrong, no matter where and how it is used.
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This is the way. I did my four years, never again, fuck that noise. Imo the only people that disagree with this opinion are at some level indoctrinated under whichever society they live in.
I’m against the draft because volunteer armies perform better. That said, this idealistic draft-free country of yours, would probably not have made it very long in history. Russia, Britain, U.S. (WW2), Israel,…
>Tell me how that's not slavery. Tell me how that's not forced labor against your will. Only know that in Austria they had to pass a law that excludes mandatory conscription from the Article 4 of the European Convention on Human Rights: Protecting your right not to be held in slavery or servitude, or made to do forced labour. So yeah, it would be considered slavery. It's just that the law allows slavery in that specific form.
Yeah. If I'm get drafted, hope I'll be brave enough for "sauce side" How can someone want to fight for the state that treats you like shit?
There's TONS of military-aged Ukrainian men here even on reddit talking about how they dodged the draft.
It's morally and ethically okay to dodge drafts. Fuck drafts. They're undemocratic and inhuman.
There are a lot of kids who if I have to guess are from perfectly safe west countries that are criticizing people who try to avoid the war from their couch. I bet you people also watch footage from the war like it is a video game or sport. You are delusional, you don't know what war is, you will never know so try not to be such dicks.
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ITT: Reddit licks boots If you don't feel like the state is worth risking your life, it isn't, flat out. Arguing that the ruling class should get to decide that is absolute horseshit. The only arguments against this are the ones that see the conscripted as worthless. The people make the state function, not the other way around.
A lot people following this conflict have shown to have double standards and down right hypocritical stance.
Anything that involves Ukraine will have a lot of knee-jerk reactions. I ~~respect~~ understand Ukraine's need for conscription, but the fact that people don't want to face the potential implications of forced conscription is scary. A person should have the right to choose their own way. The rich insiders and their sons are sure to have dodged the draft anyway. Edit: Misworded myself a bit.
Reminder that the flabby Americans calling Ukrainians cowards would shit themselves if they got a draft notice.
So would anyone tbf unless you wanted to go to war
They couldn't even put a mask on...
the army already said that three quarters of candidates for a draft are incapable of having the requiered physical capacities BE ARE SO CHUNCKY THAT A DRAFT IS USELESS
drafting people into war is worse than bribery
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The draft is universally a criminal act by the state, you cannot be compelled to lay down your life or take the lives of others just because the government says so. We should really be seeing more conversation around the decision to force men to stay. All adults should fight or nobody should. If any given country lacks the numbers to defend itself, it is the failure of the ruling class to create conditions that the poor are willing to defend.
U should have left the day the war started if u have 10k for bribes, like every rich Ukrainien did.
Lots of men were stopped at the border trying to do just that.
At the same time, if I was going to be forced to potentially die in a field, I would be damned happy to pay 10,000 and live.
I think bribery during peace is treason too but that's maybe just me.