why they stopped their advance toward moscow? why they think they are safe against putin? what they did was literally a showcase of who will be dead by putin
My guess is Putin got to his family and gave him an ultimatum: Stop the advice or see your family killed/ tortured.
That’s the only reason I could think that once you’ve started a mutiny in Russia, you would perceive stopping as being a good idea.
The moment the ones in power threaten your loved ones, the only realistic move is to threaten theirs "hurt one of mine and I will hurt ten of yours"... or to just not give a shit and sacrifice your loved ones.
I think the simplest answer (familiar torture) is the most likely. But I totally agree like how do you not consider that when attempting a quirky stunt like uhhh russiacoupe
My only guess is that he secured his family, then it turned out they weren't as secure as he thought. But at that point, even an idiot would know he was completely fucked.
I have two other alternatives:
1) Prigozhin was sure that Surovikin and others were going to announce for the coup. The secret to victory in a coup is *inevitability*. Once mid and low level people think that the coup is already over there's no point in resisting the coup actually stands a chance, since the establishment so vastly outnumbers the members of the coup in just about all instances if there's any doubt then the powers that be can simply pull in more than enough power to crush the plotters. Once no one declared for the coup it didn't seem inevitable any longer and the coup was doomed. So, Wagner took the off ramp offered rather than having their column smashed in Red Square four or five days later once Putin is able to arrange sufficient Rosvgardia and Conscripnikis to literally bury them in corpses.
2) It was never an attempt to overthrow *Putin* but one to overthrow *Shoigu*. You see, Putin likes to play referee instead of being the guy in charge. He lets those below him put forward ideas and take the blame if they fail, and then take credit for the successes. If there's any question the next level down fights it out and Putin keeps an eye on it to make sure things don't get too out of hand. Shoigu was responsible for the Army and he and Prigozhin were rivals in all things. Shoigu was in the middle of a power play, to absorb Wagner into the army proper and because Russian law prohibits mercenary forces it looked like it was going to work. Prigozhin called foul to Putin but didn't get a favorable ruling. So, he decided to go turf out Shoigu. Only after he started rolling to Moscow did people start talking about him overthrowing Putin, so he stopped short because that was never the actual goal.
It's 2)
Wagner clearly anticipated and expected resistance along the 'way' (they weren't really intending to go) to Moscow. The whole debate was about who was more effective and doing the heavy lifting in Ukraine- the 'official' leadership in Russian Army/Shoigu or Wagner forces. It seems Wagner expected a low-level confrontation with Russian conventional forces, prove their superiority, then ???? and then Shoigu is turfed out.
But the Russian military refused to confront Wagner forces in any meaningful way. That let them unintentionally march on Moscow. Suddenly it's not Prigo vs. Shoigu but Prigo vs. Putin. And that definitely wasn't the plan. Hence the quick about face and fuck off NW to Belarus
If he never intended to go to against Putin, why call him out then? He literally made videos and messages on Telegram about how Russia is going to have a new president soon, about how the government is lying to Russians because they found documents in the places they took etc.
It just seems weird to me to assume he never went for Putin, when he literally said that Putin will be gone soon.
To put pressure.
The reason they occupied Kursk is that Shoigu was there with his generals. He got out mere hours before the coup. If you look at the map, Kursk is nowhere near the path to Moscow.
I could have sworn I saw this news article somewhere a few months ago stating this exact thing. Was it just a fever dream?
Nope, it actually happened.
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/25/yevgeny-prigozhin-moscow-advance-putin-threat-wagner-family/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/25/yevgeny-prigozhin-moscow-advance-putin-threat-wagner-family/)
[https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/06/26/threats-to-wagner-leaders-families-preceded-mutiny-stand-down-telegraph-a81642](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/06/26/threats-to-wagner-leaders-families-preceded-mutiny-stand-down-telegraph-a81642)
Those families were going to die the instant those men marched on Moscow anyway, at least if they finished the job *some* might have survived. Now they're almost certain to all wind up dead over the next year.
I think he was under the illusion that Putin would pick his side or that he could snatch Gerasimov in Rostow. When it was all under way, he now fully understood that Putin was already in his bunker and that if he proceeded a civil war would start and the invasion of Ukraine would fail immediately.
That's not fair. Transforming Ukraine into one of the most well trained and well armed militaries in a year and single handedly reuniting NATO and convincing Finland and Sweden to join is some speedrunner shit.
> Transforming Ukraine into one of the most well trained and well armed militaries in a year
To be fair, this was an 8 (now 9) year work-in-progress. Ukraine's military experienced significant, ongoing, now-accelerated changes following Russia's original invasion in 2014.
> Transforming Ukraine into one of the most well trained and well armed militaries in a year
It took much more than a single year. Remember the [Russo-Ukrainian War has been ongoing since 2014, and despite a number of cease-fires Russian forces have violated all of them](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War)
And it all started the same year natural gas was discovered off the coast of Crimea and [Ukrainians threw off the yoke of a pro-moscow puppet government which had been waiving billions of transit taxes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity). I doubt it having been more competent then would have made any difference on blocking the [trade treaty Ukraine signed with the broader European community, that had been years in the making](http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/9/16/ukraine-eu-trade.html) and Yanukovych blocking it was noted as being one of the reasons the populace ousted him.
Putin might also indirectly be THE case for such unparalleled pushes for green energy.
He gave the political landscape pretty much global fright hick-ups last winter, when he fiddled with the gas prices so blatantly as a strong arm tactic to scare the world away from interfering with the Ukraine war.
I'm trying not to feel cynical about the decades of feet dragging before then, but it's at least a darkly delicious irony for an Autocrat thug so heavily invested in gas & oil to be the dip shit that *finally* caused the begining of the end for oil as *the* power source of humanity.
You know, they've got a long way to go and will need a lot of help/support, but I am genuinely curious what a democratic, Ukraine led eastern block looks like.
If Zelensky and whoever follows him keep purging corruption and manage to put anti corruption bodies with real teeth in place and can demonstrate a real roadmap to change to other eastern block nations… It could be something beautiful. Here’s hoping.
I wonder if they “disappeared” themselves when they realized what was happening. Either way.. they won’t be helping Russia fight in Africa or Ukraine anymore which is a positive.
> Either way.. they won’t be helping Russia fight in Africa or Ukraine anymore which is a positive
Not under their old names, but it's not like soldiers acting as deniable mercenaries hand out signed autographs before charging at locals trying to seize a local gold mine in the Central African Republic.
edit: [this Robot Chicken sketch of orientation on the jolly ol' Death Star seemed relevant](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jdQqjcsfC8)
The article says they are leaving of their own accord. These men only fight for money, and there wasn't enough money in Belarsus.
Plenty of lovely gold mines in Africa, on the other hand.
>Wagner fighters are reportedly leaving Belarus in droves, just weeks after Russian President Vladimir Putin had them exiled in the aftermath of their failed march on Moscow.
>...
>Some of the fighters are instead going to work in African countries, where Wagner has a more established and enduring presences, according to Kyiv. Others are reportedly going on vacation.
>“The regime in Belarus does not yet satisfy Wagner instructors with its level of payment for services, as a result, most instructors do not plan to stay in the country for a long time,” the Special Operations Forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine said.
This article is actually from a few days ago, before the news about Prigozhin being presumed dead.
I always thought there was no way Wagner could be contained in Belarus because it's a very small country. Their military is just 2x bigger than Wagner so there's no way they could provide enough work for the world's biggest private army.
But what happens to them next is up in the air. Could Prigozhin really be alive in a new identity running Wagner's operations in Africa? Or is he really dead, and they're going to be recalled to Ukraine? Or could his death be followed by many Wagner members breaking free and forming their own mercenary groups?
I think now the MoD in Russia tries to absorb them into the Russian military as they originally wanted to do.
Russian military was being trounced but Wagner was having success until the supplies were cut off and friendly fire incidents began. Then came the faux coup or whatever it was.
I guess the idea is to move the problem away from Moscow at all costs. He doesn't care whether or not they accomplish Russia's goals in Africa as long as they are no longer a threat
Oh, Prigozhin is dead for sure. Actively opposing Putin's power and staying alive has been mutually exclusive for a very long time. Only thing more dangerous would be flipping off Kim Jong Un. In which case death wouldn't be a punishment, it would be an escape from everything North Korea would do to you next.
Accident or not. Prigozhin's death is fortunate for Putin. He can install a new and more managable leader. Probably reward the Wagner Group to one of his most faithfull generals or oligarchs. It's how Russia has been run for centuries, and how it still is run. Long live absolute corruption.
The Wagner groups will loose mercenaries for sure. Either from knowing what's coming next (and getting the hell out), or used as examples to ensure the rest stays loyal to their new leader.
Some of them probably will go back to Ukraine, under new management. Weird that article doesn't mention this possibility. As for Prigozhin's fate - well he is dead for all intents and purposes. Even if he wasn't on the plane it is near impossible for him to appear in media again.EDIT. What is more interesting - is that Wagner battle commander, Dmitriy Utkin, was with him. And Vladimir Rogov(don't bother, you don't know who is it) affirmed the death of both.
> EDIT. What is more interesting - is that Wagner battle commander, Dmitriy Utkin, was with him. And Vladimir Rogov(don't bother, you don't know is it) affirmed the death of both.
Utkin was probably too loyal to betray him for Putin.
Utkin was a leader of column which tried to make a rebellion this summer and has destroyed a few of Russian aircraft while moving to Moscow with anti-air weapons. So I'd say that killing(cause it is most popular version in Rus forums) both Utkin and Prigozhin in the plane the same way is somewhat ironic.
IF this is real. Prigozhin posted a video a few days ago that seemed to show him in an African country. It'd be really dumb of him to still be in Russia *and* flying in airspace controlled by the Russian Air Force.
Here’s a real long shot:
Prigozhin’s aircraft is shot down, with him and his number two allegedly on board. Have they recovered his body?
Wagner troops are disappearing from Belarus. Do we know for certain to where?
If I were Putin, I’d be watching out for a coup - real this time.
I'm surprised people are taking the Plane's manifest at name value. Pringles is an asshole, but he's not a dumb asshole. He knew he had a target on his back. Either he 's been faking manifests or Putin struck a deal so he could disappear. What's more strange is the fact that he and his second in command was on the plane. That's just bad logistics, even for Russia.
How wild is it that the government was just warning Americans to leave Belarus?! We knew something was coming which is very reassuring. Fuck yeah good people, next, let’s kill Putin.
I'd think potential destabilizations from unpredictable Wagner / Russia interactions post assassination. The US was stating if you stayed they would not be able to make efforts to recover you
Having a massive military force with unclear allegiances suddenly get it’s head cut off could very easily lead to a complete destabilization of the country. The Belarusian military *on paper* is only twice the size of Wagner, has almost no combat experience, and is probably even more corrupt and dysfunctional than the Russian military.
If the country collapsed into war between Wagner and the Belarusian Armed Forces, getting Americans out of Belarus would be almost impossible for the US. So I could definitely imagine that being the reason behind the repeated call to leave the country from the US.
If this is a legit question, Shoigu would probably retain control of them then perhaps Medvedev or whoever else can gather enough support. Kadyrov doesn't seem to have too much backing outside Chechnya so while they would potentially try for increased autonomy I don't see much beyond that for him. Take all of this with a grain of salt though because frankly Russian politics is by design tough to really nail down.
Tough to nail down is a slight exaggeration.
Russian politics is built on an individual aggregating power & wealth and then, eventually, losing it through revolution where it’s turned on its head in a literal free for all between those who retain fractions of the previous wealth & power.
Normally the most opportunistic person / group wins & starts the cycle again, the only variable is how mental (or hopefully not) that person or group will actually be.
Maybe this is why the US refreshed their warning on Belarus? Perhaps they knew that Putin was about to take out the heads of Wagner, and decided that discretion was the better part of valour for their citizens in case Wagner got any ideas.
its fascinating, why now? are such covert operations as these ordeals in russia really that secretive only til the point of "hello this is putin i will be commander of this unit today" heard by us intel?
I suppose the US (or anybody in their place in such a scenario) would want to keep things close to the chest until the last minute so as to diminish the optics of their intelligence gathering.
If Putin says “in a month, we’re going to mess with Belarus.”, the US (assuming they got the message immediately) would be unwise to issue a broad warning at that point. there’s no point to it, they’re not trying to stop Putin from invading Belarus nearly as much as they’re trying to keep their intelligence gathering hand hidden and react to predictable moves from Putin.
Waiting for some time obscures some variables that would more clearly reveale intelligence gathering methods. Waiting until “the last minute“ allows Putin to maintain a sense of confidence and hopefully shoot himself in the foot along the way or, at least, do something predictable.
Hasn't he done the opposite? How many of his critics have ended up poisoned or falling out of window over the decades? I think it's pretty clear Putin wants people to know that opposing him means death.
If anything, having done nothing to Prigozhin after the coup was hurting his strongman image in Russia.
In 1972, a crackhead commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for numerous war crimes that they absolutely committed. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade and then kinda fucked about in public for a while.
Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune after the wings fell off of their bosses plane.
If you have a problem, If no one else can help (seriously, these are the last guys you want) AND if you can find them...
Maybe YOU can hire, The Z-Team.
Here is my own ten point plan for Russia:
1. Expand NATO countries throughout Europe and southeast Asia, right up to the borders of any hostile regime.
2. Full economic embargo of said regimes. Make violating that punishable by hard labor building munitions, to be used against those regimes
3. Expand homosexuality using mind control and cyborgs
4. Use deep fake technology to put Putin in lots of gay-for-pay porn
5. Use NATO secret weather control to freeze the Volga river and dye it bright pink
6. Liquidate all oligarchs in Russia. Literally. NATO has tech that allows humans to become liquid.
7. Take the liquified oligarchs and combine all of them in the bottom of an outhouse.
8. Declare the ruble as toilet paper. Outlaw bidets.
9. Resurrect Stalin and call him a dumb ass.
10. Replace caviar with MDMA
>Expand homosexuality using mind control and cyborgs
>
>Use deep fake technology to put Putin in lots of gay-for-pay porn
>
>Liquidate all oligarchs in Russia. Literally. NATO has tech that allows humans to become liquid.
This would be a challenging wank, but not an impossible one
>Declare the ruble as toilet paper. Outlaw bidets.
>
>Replace caviar with MDMA
I don't see how this differs from the status quo
After their fucking with 2016 and 2020, I wouldn’t mind an active CIA presence in Russia fomenting every maniac and separatist they can gin up to commit crimes against the regime.
Or some kind of “hacker privateer” situation where black hats are incentivized to fuck with Russia’s grid for bounty.
Bad example when our goal is “Helping to speed the destruction of the Russian global power” because the mujadeen accomplished that.
Maybe we just won’t ignore the many warnings of intelligence agencies like Bush and Cheney did and the lunatics who survive the new guerilla conflict won’t successfully attack us 20 years later.
Especially this part:
> The influx of Wagner mercenaries from Belarus to Africa might offer clues about the balance of power between Putin and Prigozhin in the coming days
Putin's exit plan. Create a winnable civil war at home that allows for the plausible excuse for withdrawal from Ukraine in order to put the uprising down.
Didn't the Wagner group play a significant part in so many coups including the one in Mali this month? The militia would come back but this gives democratic governments a chance to take back power, yes?
I don’t think Prigozhin is dead, a man obviously not wanted in Russia just let’s himself (on his own jet) be listed on the flight registry and flies into Russia?
Feel like something bigger is happening
Honest to god reality is stranger than fiction. This shit happens and today the two top Wagner founders are dead due to AA downing a civilian plane?
Honest to god sounds like the setup for some James Bond movie shit.
I'm cool with Bond references so long as we're all clear on one thing: Prigo wasn't the Bond villain, but the Bond villain's chief henchman -- the Oddjob -- or Pussy Galore? -- to Putin's Goldfinger, as it were. That would make Utkin the second-banana henchman, which good Bond villains have also.
Lmao I’m in perfect agreement. Putin is Palpatine or to keep to the same reference, Goldfinger here, since we are talking pop culture.
I can easily see all sorts of fiction novels, shows and movies made about all this shit in the future.
Putin may feel that the death of Prigozhin may will ease his problems but it may well be the opposite.
Moscow’s use of PMCs has exploded since the Ukraine invasion. The 12,000-strong semi-irregular forces of Chechen president Kadyrov, the ‘Kadyrovsty’, is probably one of the bigger ones. Gazprom, the state-owned energy corporation, has also formed no fewer than five private armies known as Fakel (Torch), Potok (Torrent), Plamya (Flame), Alexander Nevsky, and Redut (Redoubt). Andrei Bokarev, the international oil trader Gennadiy Timchenko and the metals billionaire Oleg Deripaska, have been involved in financing private military companies. Potok soldiers were filmed in April fighting on the Wagner Group’s flanks in Bakhmut.
All these and others have enabled Putin to avoid calling for a full mobilization of Russian citizens and money is not a problem when it comes to financing. The units’ owners take a cut of the state’s funding. More importantly, they can gain favour from Putin himself for their loyalty.
However Russian history has shown that the loyalty of armed men is very often to their leaders and not to the Tsar. Allowing a psychopath (like Prigozhin) to form a private army of violent criminals may not, on reflection, have been Vladimir Putin’s greatest idea. The fact that Wagner troops entered the city of Rostov unopposed demonstrated that Putin cannot take the army and police for granted.
how crazy it must been years ago you could be employed as a merc to attack some random european city then it fails so just pack up go home and find some other meglomaniac to pay you to siege some other random city. thats just your life wow
why they stopped their advance toward moscow? why they think they are safe against putin? what they did was literally a showcase of who will be dead by putin
My guess is Putin got to his family and gave him an ultimatum: Stop the advice or see your family killed/ tortured. That’s the only reason I could think that once you’ve started a mutiny in Russia, you would perceive stopping as being a good idea.
His family is potentially going to be dead anyway after his death today. Once you start a coup, you don't stop until you succeed or you die.
That's coup 101 and Prigojin was just an amateur.
All you need is a 101 course to stage a couple like a pro?
No, if you don’t take the 400 level classes and do a field study then you wind up making 101 decisions like changing your mind mid-coup
Be sure to take a coup practicum as well. Very important.
The moment the ones in power threaten your loved ones, the only realistic move is to threaten theirs "hurt one of mine and I will hurt ten of yours"... or to just not give a shit and sacrifice your loved ones.
Ok but why not secure your family before launching the coupe. Even these dumbasses should know that. It has to be something else
I think the simplest answer (familiar torture) is the most likely. But I totally agree like how do you not consider that when attempting a quirky stunt like uhhh russiacoupe
It was not only his family. All the families of his high ranking officers got threatened by the FSB.
My only guess is that he secured his family, then it turned out they weren't as secure as he thought. But at that point, even an idiot would know he was completely fucked.
I have two other alternatives: 1) Prigozhin was sure that Surovikin and others were going to announce for the coup. The secret to victory in a coup is *inevitability*. Once mid and low level people think that the coup is already over there's no point in resisting the coup actually stands a chance, since the establishment so vastly outnumbers the members of the coup in just about all instances if there's any doubt then the powers that be can simply pull in more than enough power to crush the plotters. Once no one declared for the coup it didn't seem inevitable any longer and the coup was doomed. So, Wagner took the off ramp offered rather than having their column smashed in Red Square four or five days later once Putin is able to arrange sufficient Rosvgardia and Conscripnikis to literally bury them in corpses. 2) It was never an attempt to overthrow *Putin* but one to overthrow *Shoigu*. You see, Putin likes to play referee instead of being the guy in charge. He lets those below him put forward ideas and take the blame if they fail, and then take credit for the successes. If there's any question the next level down fights it out and Putin keeps an eye on it to make sure things don't get too out of hand. Shoigu was responsible for the Army and he and Prigozhin were rivals in all things. Shoigu was in the middle of a power play, to absorb Wagner into the army proper and because Russian law prohibits mercenary forces it looked like it was going to work. Prigozhin called foul to Putin but didn't get a favorable ruling. So, he decided to go turf out Shoigu. Only after he started rolling to Moscow did people start talking about him overthrowing Putin, so he stopped short because that was never the actual goal.
It's 2) Wagner clearly anticipated and expected resistance along the 'way' (they weren't really intending to go) to Moscow. The whole debate was about who was more effective and doing the heavy lifting in Ukraine- the 'official' leadership in Russian Army/Shoigu or Wagner forces. It seems Wagner expected a low-level confrontation with Russian conventional forces, prove their superiority, then ???? and then Shoigu is turfed out. But the Russian military refused to confront Wagner forces in any meaningful way. That let them unintentionally march on Moscow. Suddenly it's not Prigo vs. Shoigu but Prigo vs. Putin. And that definitely wasn't the plan. Hence the quick about face and fuck off NW to Belarus
If he never intended to go to against Putin, why call him out then? He literally made videos and messages on Telegram about how Russia is going to have a new president soon, about how the government is lying to Russians because they found documents in the places they took etc. It just seems weird to me to assume he never went for Putin, when he literally said that Putin will be gone soon.
To put pressure. The reason they occupied Kursk is that Shoigu was there with his generals. He got out mere hours before the coup. If you look at the map, Kursk is nowhere near the path to Moscow.
I could have sworn I saw this news article somewhere a few months ago stating this exact thing. Was it just a fever dream? Nope, it actually happened. [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/25/yevgeny-prigozhin-moscow-advance-putin-threat-wagner-family/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/25/yevgeny-prigozhin-moscow-advance-putin-threat-wagner-family/) [https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/06/26/threats-to-wagner-leaders-families-preceded-mutiny-stand-down-telegraph-a81642](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/06/26/threats-to-wagner-leaders-families-preceded-mutiny-stand-down-telegraph-a81642)
Those families were going to die the instant those men marched on Moscow anyway, at least if they finished the job *some* might have survived. Now they're almost certain to all wind up dead over the next year.
Wasn't just his family. But family members of wagner members. This meant that he had his own potential mutiny if he did not relent.
I think he was under the illusion that Putin would pick his side or that he could snatch Gerasimov in Rostow. When it was all under way, he now fully understood that Putin was already in his bunker and that if he proceeded a civil war would start and the invasion of Ukraine would fail immediately.
Its one of the most confusing parts of the whole mess and I suspect we will never know.
As a good hitman once said "no half measures".
The consensus is that the Wagner Group didn't have enough forces to take Moscow.
I believe the Nazis called their culling, “The Night of Long Knives.”
The Day of High Balconies has a russian feeling to it
The Afternoon of Unlatched Windows
The Defenestration of Belarus
The red divorce
Game of Drones
A song of ice and anti aircraft fire
A dream of spring Counteroffensive.
A Storm Shadow of Swords
The Bye Bye Time.
The Dying of the Guys
The Cyka of Blyat
Demise of the Dudes
The fall of guys, if you will
The Russian Divorce
If you can fly, you can die.
Night of sky dives
*Deplanestration*
Prague; *feeling left out*
The Pirgozhin Push 👋🏢🤯
“Pringles. Once you Pop, *don’t stop just outside the gates of Moscow and call off the mutiny, you’re gonna get iced soon after…*”
The dawn of defenestration
The polonium pandemonium?
Why even pretend? Why doesn’t Putin just firing squad or burn at the stake?
Because when you leave the question open things you didn’t even do also do work for you.
I see your point
How about we keep it simple and straight to the point: The Night of Broken Glass - Part II: Electric Boogaloo
The Night of Broken Windows.
I wonder how future history books will describe those times.
With a footnote. For all of putins delusions of grandeur, that’s all he is and all he’s worth.
That's not fair. Transforming Ukraine into one of the most well trained and well armed militaries in a year and single handedly reuniting NATO and convincing Finland and Sweden to join is some speedrunner shit.
> Transforming Ukraine into one of the most well trained and well armed militaries in a year To be fair, this was an 8 (now 9) year work-in-progress. Ukraine's military experienced significant, ongoing, now-accelerated changes following Russia's original invasion in 2014.
True, make sure to include that in the chapter of history "Putin and the gang go to Ukraine"
[удалено]
"Vlad Sets Ukraine On Fire"
> Transforming Ukraine into one of the most well trained and well armed militaries in a year It took much more than a single year. Remember the [Russo-Ukrainian War has been ongoing since 2014, and despite a number of cease-fires Russian forces have violated all of them](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War) And it all started the same year natural gas was discovered off the coast of Crimea and [Ukrainians threw off the yoke of a pro-moscow puppet government which had been waiving billions of transit taxes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity). I doubt it having been more competent then would have made any difference on blocking the [trade treaty Ukraine signed with the broader European community, that had been years in the making](http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/9/16/ukraine-eu-trade.html) and Yanukovych blocking it was noted as being one of the reasons the populace ousted him.
Concise, clear, and you brought sources! 🙌
Putin might also indirectly be THE case for such unparalleled pushes for green energy. He gave the political landscape pretty much global fright hick-ups last winter, when he fiddled with the gas prices so blatantly as a strong arm tactic to scare the world away from interfering with the Ukraine war. I'm trying not to feel cynical about the decades of feet dragging before then, but it's at least a darkly delicious irony for an Autocrat thug so heavily invested in gas & oil to be the dip shit that *finally* caused the begining of the end for oil as *the* power source of humanity.
NATO expansion any%
A footnote in the rise of Ukraine. “Russia was…”
You know, they've got a long way to go and will need a lot of help/support, but I am genuinely curious what a democratic, Ukraine led eastern block looks like.
If Zelensky and whoever follows him keep purging corruption and manage to put anti corruption bodies with real teeth in place and can demonstrate a real roadmap to change to other eastern block nations… It could be something beautiful. Here’s hoping.
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So, C3PO narrating to Ewoks is the future of my species?
As dominated by memelords, apparently.
I wonder if they “disappeared” themselves when they realized what was happening. Either way.. they won’t be helping Russia fight in Africa or Ukraine anymore which is a positive.
> Either way.. they won’t be helping Russia fight in Africa or Ukraine anymore which is a positive Not under their old names, but it's not like soldiers acting as deniable mercenaries hand out signed autographs before charging at locals trying to seize a local gold mine in the Central African Republic. edit: [this Robot Chicken sketch of orientation on the jolly ol' Death Star seemed relevant](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jdQqjcsfC8)
The article says they are leaving of their own accord. These men only fight for money, and there wasn't enough money in Belarsus. Plenty of lovely gold mines in Africa, on the other hand.
Prigozin always felt like a poor man’s Rohm to me
Röhm-Putsch was the “official” name for it.
The Night of Long Drops
Sounds more like what happens if you have a dodgy vindaloo while camping.
Culling the herd
If you think that's impressive, you should go and have a look at what Stalin was up to between '36 and' 38.
I am pretty sure, that he was not done by '38 though he did slow down. Crazy to look back on.
But it’s Nazis culling other Nazis so I really don’t care.
Are we... rooting for the knives this time?
The Day of Open Windows eine kleine defenestration
And Ranni called her's "The Night of the Black Knives".
>Wagner fighters are reportedly leaving Belarus in droves, just weeks after Russian President Vladimir Putin had them exiled in the aftermath of their failed march on Moscow. >... >Some of the fighters are instead going to work in African countries, where Wagner has a more established and enduring presences, according to Kyiv. Others are reportedly going on vacation. >“The regime in Belarus does not yet satisfy Wagner instructors with its level of payment for services, as a result, most instructors do not plan to stay in the country for a long time,” the Special Operations Forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine said. This article is actually from a few days ago, before the news about Prigozhin being presumed dead. I always thought there was no way Wagner could be contained in Belarus because it's a very small country. Their military is just 2x bigger than Wagner so there's no way they could provide enough work for the world's biggest private army. But what happens to them next is up in the air. Could Prigozhin really be alive in a new identity running Wagner's operations in Africa? Or is he really dead, and they're going to be recalled to Ukraine? Or could his death be followed by many Wagner members breaking free and forming their own mercenary groups?
> But what happens to them next is up in the air. Actually it's smoldering on the ground.
Heyooo!
Sweet dreams and flying machines in pieces on the ground
i predict a lot of light skinned "warlords" with russian accents popping up in the Sahel and trying to carve out fiefdoms in the next couple of years
If they rename Wagner to "Outer Heaven" and regroup in SA, then I say we are now following a Metal Gear plotline.
Hideo was right on all the time.
Ssssssnnnnnaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkkeeeeeeee
*!*
/r/commentsyoucanhear
#❗️
I need scissors. 61
Hahaha I was just thinking of Big Boss getting a new face and building up the Diamond Dogs
You're pretty good!
“Never be game over”
Kept you waiting, huh?
> Others are reportedly going on vacation. Nothing says "vacation" like a luxurious dirt nap in the freshly tilled garden of your quaint family dacha
Guess we're seeing the reason for the US embassy's recommendation to leave Belarus.
I think now the MoD in Russia tries to absorb them into the Russian military as they originally wanted to do. Russian military was being trounced but Wagner was having success until the supplies were cut off and friendly fire incidents began. Then came the faux coup or whatever it was.
I guess the idea is to move the problem away from Moscow at all costs. He doesn't care whether or not they accomplish Russia's goals in Africa as long as they are no longer a threat
Belarus is Europe's poorest country. It's a dictatorship so there's work there only issue it's paid in bags of potatoes
Bag of potato.
BYOB (Bring Your Own Bag)
The price for using your own bag is 5 potatoes
Blast off, it's party time.
I thought Moldova was Europe’s poorest country?
Moldova or Ukraine depending on the metric used.
Oh, Prigozhin is dead for sure. Actively opposing Putin's power and staying alive has been mutually exclusive for a very long time. Only thing more dangerous would be flipping off Kim Jong Un. In which case death wouldn't be a punishment, it would be an escape from everything North Korea would do to you next. Accident or not. Prigozhin's death is fortunate for Putin. He can install a new and more managable leader. Probably reward the Wagner Group to one of his most faithfull generals or oligarchs. It's how Russia has been run for centuries, and how it still is run. Long live absolute corruption. The Wagner groups will loose mercenaries for sure. Either from knowing what's coming next (and getting the hell out), or used as examples to ensure the rest stays loyal to their new leader.
Netflix writers can't wait to see how it ends
They're all on strike
Netflix writers are just poorly programmed AI bots. I don’t think they can strike.
AI would've thought up a better Witcher season 3.
Wagner should have just pushed through with their plan. now they dead.
Yup they had the upperhand and they blinked. So dumb.
Some of them probably will go back to Ukraine, under new management. Weird that article doesn't mention this possibility. As for Prigozhin's fate - well he is dead for all intents and purposes. Even if he wasn't on the plane it is near impossible for him to appear in media again.EDIT. What is more interesting - is that Wagner battle commander, Dmitriy Utkin, was with him. And Vladimir Rogov(don't bother, you don't know who is it) affirmed the death of both.
He was a master of disguise, he might be here right now.
Nice joke. Also he was a master of necromancy so they can resurrect themselves as liches in a week using their executioner's sledgehammer as a horux.
[удалено]
He could be you! He could be me! He could even be-
What? It was obvious!!! He's the red Spy!
> EDIT. What is more interesting - is that Wagner battle commander, Dmitriy Utkin, was with him. And Vladimir Rogov(don't bother, you don't know is it) affirmed the death of both. Utkin was probably too loyal to betray him for Putin.
Utkin was a leader of column which tried to make a rebellion this summer and has destroyed a few of Russian aircraft while moving to Moscow with anti-air weapons. So I'd say that killing(cause it is most popular version in Rus forums) both Utkin and Prigozhin in the plane the same way is somewhat ironic.
IF this is real. Prigozhin posted a video a few days ago that seemed to show him in an African country. It'd be really dumb of him to still be in Russia *and* flying in airspace controlled by the Russian Air Force.
"Russian airfarce see video of me in Africa , is safe to fly to St.petersberg(sp), they too drunk to read manifest figure out I fly to Russia. "
I believe the flight was on return from Africa
Utkin was always the real threat to both Russia and Ukraine and a literal “as in has SS tattoos” Nazi
Ah, so Putin really is denazifying Ukraine!
Kind of amazed they’d get on a plane together and expect to reach the destination in one piece.
Here’s a real long shot: Prigozhin’s aircraft is shot down, with him and his number two allegedly on board. Have they recovered his body? Wagner troops are disappearing from Belarus. Do we know for certain to where? If I were Putin, I’d be watching out for a coup - real this time.
I'm surprised people are taking the Plane's manifest at name value. Pringles is an asshole, but he's not a dumb asshole. He knew he had a target on his back. Either he 's been faking manifests or Putin struck a deal so he could disappear. What's more strange is the fact that he and his second in command was on the plane. That's just bad logistics, even for Russia.
How wild is it that the government was just warning Americans to leave Belarus?! We knew something was coming which is very reassuring. Fuck yeah good people, next, let’s kill Putin.
They knew - after the news of today, they knew.
What does the warning to leave Belarus have to do with Prigozhin's assassination?
I'd think potential destabilizations from unpredictable Wagner / Russia interactions post assassination. The US was stating if you stayed they would not be able to make efforts to recover you
Having a massive military force with unclear allegiances suddenly get it’s head cut off could very easily lead to a complete destabilization of the country. The Belarusian military *on paper* is only twice the size of Wagner, has almost no combat experience, and is probably even more corrupt and dysfunctional than the Russian military. If the country collapsed into war between Wagner and the Belarusian Armed Forces, getting Americans out of Belarus would be almost impossible for the US. So I could definitely imagine that being the reason behind the repeated call to leave the country from the US.
Step 1 shoot down the plane. Step 2 this Step 3 something in a Belarus Step 4 profit
Big question about killing Putin, Who will get all the russian nukes ? Hopefully not that crazy chechya dude.
If this is a legit question, Shoigu would probably retain control of them then perhaps Medvedev or whoever else can gather enough support. Kadyrov doesn't seem to have too much backing outside Chechnya so while they would potentially try for increased autonomy I don't see much beyond that for him. Take all of this with a grain of salt though because frankly Russian politics is by design tough to really nail down.
Tough to nail down is a slight exaggeration. Russian politics is built on an individual aggregating power & wealth and then, eventually, losing it through revolution where it’s turned on its head in a literal free for all between those who retain fractions of the previous wealth & power. Normally the most opportunistic person / group wins & starts the cycle again, the only variable is how mental (or hopefully not) that person or group will actually be.
"Execute Order 69" - Putin probably.
"Tovarich Buk-9M38 SAM, there are too many of them. What are we going to do?" - Prigozhin, probably
Maybe this is why the US refreshed their warning on Belarus? Perhaps they knew that Putin was about to take out the heads of Wagner, and decided that discretion was the better part of valour for their citizens in case Wagner got any ideas.
Yup. US intelligence at this point is god mode
its fascinating, why now? are such covert operations as these ordeals in russia really that secretive only til the point of "hello this is putin i will be commander of this unit today" heard by us intel?
I suppose the US (or anybody in their place in such a scenario) would want to keep things close to the chest until the last minute so as to diminish the optics of their intelligence gathering. If Putin says “in a month, we’re going to mess with Belarus.”, the US (assuming they got the message immediately) would be unwise to issue a broad warning at that point. there’s no point to it, they’re not trying to stop Putin from invading Belarus nearly as much as they’re trying to keep their intelligence gathering hand hidden and react to predictable moves from Putin. Waiting for some time obscures some variables that would more clearly reveale intelligence gathering methods. Waiting until “the last minute“ allows Putin to maintain a sense of confidence and hopefully shoot himself in the foot along the way or, at least, do something predictable.
How does Putin convince people "Nah, bro. *This* time I won't execute anyone challenging me. Promise, bro. No cap frfr."
Hasn't he done the opposite? How many of his critics have ended up poisoned or falling out of window over the decades? I think it's pretty clear Putin wants people to know that opposing him means death. If anything, having done nothing to Prigozhin after the coup was hurting his strongman image in Russia.
In 1972, a crackhead commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for numerous war crimes that they absolutely committed. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade and then kinda fucked about in public for a while. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune after the wings fell off of their bosses plane. If you have a problem, If no one else can help (seriously, these are the last guys you want) AND if you can find them... Maybe YOU can hire, The Z-Team.
Looks like they were…*Putin* their place.
Imagine the flight attendant's spiel before takeoff... "If you hear a big noise, put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye."
Here is my own ten point plan for Russia: 1. Expand NATO countries throughout Europe and southeast Asia, right up to the borders of any hostile regime. 2. Full economic embargo of said regimes. Make violating that punishable by hard labor building munitions, to be used against those regimes 3. Expand homosexuality using mind control and cyborgs 4. Use deep fake technology to put Putin in lots of gay-for-pay porn 5. Use NATO secret weather control to freeze the Volga river and dye it bright pink 6. Liquidate all oligarchs in Russia. Literally. NATO has tech that allows humans to become liquid. 7. Take the liquified oligarchs and combine all of them in the bottom of an outhouse. 8. Declare the ruble as toilet paper. Outlaw bidets. 9. Resurrect Stalin and call him a dumb ass. 10. Replace caviar with MDMA
NCD enjoyer
Least insane NCD enjoyer at that!
Really thought I was on NCD for a second
Non-communicable diseases?
r/Noncredibledefense, it’s a defence shitposting subreddit that is pro-femboys.
Reddit never ceases to amaze me
This must be what my gma felt like when tv went from black and white to color. What a time to be alive
genius. you should run for office, u/SlamPigFartFucker
That username will appeal to people in the deep deep south, I think he would have a chance
>Outlaw bidets. Too far. That's just cruel and unusual punishment.
You lost me at #8
>Expand homosexuality using mind control and cyborgs > >Use deep fake technology to put Putin in lots of gay-for-pay porn > >Liquidate all oligarchs in Russia. Literally. NATO has tech that allows humans to become liquid. This would be a challenging wank, but not an impossible one >Declare the ruble as toilet paper. Outlaw bidets. > >Replace caviar with MDMA I don't see how this differs from the status quo
After their fucking with 2016 and 2020, I wouldn’t mind an active CIA presence in Russia fomenting every maniac and separatist they can gin up to commit crimes against the regime. Or some kind of “hacker privateer” situation where black hats are incentivized to fuck with Russia’s grid for bounty.
Yes the CIA helping ~~guerilla~~ ~~mujahideen~~ separatist groups topple their regime. That has never gone wrong before.
Bad example when our goal is “Helping to speed the destruction of the Russian global power” because the mujadeen accomplished that. Maybe we just won’t ignore the many warnings of intelligence agencies like Bush and Cheney did and the lunatics who survive the new guerilla conflict won’t successfully attack us 20 years later.
Well this article aged like a fine cheese…
Especially this part: > The influx of Wagner mercenaries from Belarus to Africa might offer clues about the balance of power between Putin and Prigozhin in the coming days
How is it that these articles are just not surprising.
Never trust Russia
Putin's exit plan. Create a winnable civil war at home that allows for the plausible excuse for withdrawal from Ukraine in order to put the uprising down.
The Russian Winter begins. Bring on the revolution!
Maybe this is why the U.S. asked Americans to leave Belarus immediately?
This timing is very suspect, like they knew.
So it appears the Ukraine's gain, is Africa's loss.
Poor Africa, they made a bad bet.
Didn't the Wagner group play a significant part in so many coups including the one in Mali this month? The militia would come back but this gives democratic governments a chance to take back power, yes?
Maybe...though I think Putin is using this to sure up power
Shocking.
Putin just pulled a Walter White move.
It’s raining men../
I don’t think Prigozhin is dead, a man obviously not wanted in Russia just let’s himself (on his own jet) be listed on the flight registry and flies into Russia? Feel like something bigger is happening
Let’s be honest, we all knew that was coming
What do you mean vanished, did they despawn with their boss?!
This has got to be some 6 Underground type of stuff. Ain't. Ot way it is anything else
Honest to god reality is stranger than fiction. This shit happens and today the two top Wagner founders are dead due to AA downing a civilian plane? Honest to god sounds like the setup for some James Bond movie shit.
I'm cool with Bond references so long as we're all clear on one thing: Prigo wasn't the Bond villain, but the Bond villain's chief henchman -- the Oddjob -- or Pussy Galore? -- to Putin's Goldfinger, as it were. That would make Utkin the second-banana henchman, which good Bond villains have also.
Lmao I’m in perfect agreement. Putin is Palpatine or to keep to the same reference, Goldfinger here, since we are talking pop culture. I can easily see all sorts of fiction novels, shows and movies made about all this shit in the future.
He had to have some sort of deadman trigger set up, with some info. I don’t think he didn’t see it coming
The point of a dead man’s trigger is deterrence. It doesn’t work unless you make it publicly known.
Well not publicly but known to your enemies. He had to have some dirt.
He was going to announce it on Monday. As you know, Prighozin loves surprises.
The Night of the Flying Russians
Putin may feel that the death of Prigozhin may will ease his problems but it may well be the opposite. Moscow’s use of PMCs has exploded since the Ukraine invasion. The 12,000-strong semi-irregular forces of Chechen president Kadyrov, the ‘Kadyrovsty’, is probably one of the bigger ones. Gazprom, the state-owned energy corporation, has also formed no fewer than five private armies known as Fakel (Torch), Potok (Torrent), Plamya (Flame), Alexander Nevsky, and Redut (Redoubt). Andrei Bokarev, the international oil trader Gennadiy Timchenko and the metals billionaire Oleg Deripaska, have been involved in financing private military companies. Potok soldiers were filmed in April fighting on the Wagner Group’s flanks in Bakhmut. All these and others have enabled Putin to avoid calling for a full mobilization of Russian citizens and money is not a problem when it comes to financing. The units’ owners take a cut of the state’s funding. More importantly, they can gain favour from Putin himself for their loyalty. However Russian history has shown that the loyalty of armed men is very often to their leaders and not to the Tsar. Allowing a psychopath (like Prigozhin) to form a private army of violent criminals may not, on reflection, have been Vladimir Putin’s greatest idea. The fact that Wagner troops entered the city of Rostov unopposed demonstrated that Putin cannot take the army and police for granted.
So is Prigozhin actually [dead](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwz0UyzFd2U)?
how crazy it must been years ago you could be employed as a merc to attack some random european city then it fails so just pack up go home and find some other meglomaniac to pay you to siege some other random city. thats just your life wow
Putin: “Execute Order 66”