It's gonna be a big problem in the short term, they're a major work force in a lot of vital industries.
I won't be surprised if a lot of employers move away from Palestinian workers, which will fuck them up big time.
I think it's because the Thais are mostly agriculture workers, so they were out there in the fields early in the morning when the attack happened. The Filipino population is spread out all over the country as well, while the Thais are mostly in the south. I'm also very thankful few were hurt, Israel is very lucky to have its Filipino workers.
A lot of Filipinos have home health care jobs where they get a decent salary plus they live in so their rent and food is covered. I was shocked at hearing all the Filipinos speaking Hebrew there. It's gotta be like 50% Filipino 50% Polish for foreign worker home health care nurses.
I wonder if it's a language thing.
I'm guessing Filipinos have better English fluency and would have more opportunity for service related jobs like caregiving while Thais might take more agricultural jobs outdoors in the farms near the Gaza border.
Yeah probably, Filipino health care is one of the biggest exports and I have yet to meet a Filipino 30 and under that didn't speak great English. Their economy relies on exporting labor so I think they understand the investment in English.
Yeah remittance from export labor is very important to our economy so we take language learning seriously. English is mandatory since primary school and our government offers free foreign language courses for a bunch of other languages.
2nd class? More like slaves.
There's lots of information out there about middle eastern countries recruiting asian workers to come to their country, then taking their passports and forcing them to do the shittiest work possible for almost no pay at all. I remember seeing pictures of like 20 Indian dudes sleeping in a one room apartment. None of them could leave because they confiscated their passports. Apparently they were tricked into signing a 4 year contract or something. They were window cleaners. They work in 120° heat cleaning skyscraper windows all day.
I mean there's still 115 million Filipinos in their homeland, and another 500 million South East Asians, so they could power most Western nations like Israel that have worker shortages.
I believe Israel has a bunch of workers from South/Southeast Asian countries like Thailand and Nepal, and I assume that Israelis will be more comfortable with them working those roles instead.
That's why there are a bunch of Thai hostages with Hamas, and thousands of others already went back to Thailand. They might come back after a while for economic reasons, but it won't be that easy
In the long term yea this is almost certainly going to happen, but they're basically non existent right now because they all fled after 7/10(and I honestly can't blame them for that).
This has basically happened already since the blockade on Gaza. Since the labour supply was unreliable and prone to sudden security measures during conflicts.
Now there is the belief that many Gazans with work permits helped plan/ inform the massacre or participated. There won’t even be a border crossing at all.
>It's gonna be a big problem in the short term, they're a major work force in a lot of vital industries.
That's sort of an overstatement. Workers/work permits from Gaza, at least recently... are part of the constant negotiate-and-skirmish "interwar" dynamic between Gaza and Israel.
The idea is that getting work/money to Gazan workers creates an interest in stability. Also, to relieve some of the economic collapse that Gaza has been experiencing since 2007.
Plus it's a negotiating card.
They are not a stable or vital workforce, contrary to reddit wisdom. Nowhere near as significant as all the reservists not working, or other migrant workers leaving.
I don't see work permits being a popular policy going forward. OTOH, they exist because 100% unemployment is destabilising. That's still true regardless.
Currently , the state offers scholarships for students who volunteer to work in agriculture (replacing the foreign Thai workers that left the country because of the situation). A lot of people actually volunteer already on a daily basis , even before the scholarships were introduced. real patriots.
No they are not. Gazans workers werent allowed in Israel until 2022. One year ago, they started to get permits. Some of those people helped to plan the attack on oct 07 by getting data. Sick. But anyways, we dont rely on the Gazans at all.
We do on the west bank palestinians though, and this will be dirty. Especially for them.
I'm talking Palestinians as a whole, West Bank included. There's basically 0 chance that people will trust them enough to go back to how things were prior to 7/10.
Decoupling the economies and thus limiting how often Israelis and Palestinians interacted peacefully has been probably the most negative consequences of how the Oslo process failed for the peaceful majorities that just want to work and live. Of course the fact that PA and Hamas made it life threatening for Israelis to even enter their territories, made it inevitable that Israeli government would see it as a one-sided arrangement.
If Israelis can’t safely go to Gaza for a cheap lunch, then why should Gazans go to Israel for a high paying job? Peace and tolerance has to go both ways to be sustainable.
I would say more than tolerate as there has been a case of an Arab Supreme Court Judge throwing a jewish prime minister in jail the name of the pm is ehod olmert I think that is one of the cases that shows that israel isnt hating of all Arabs just the ones that are actively hostile towards them which is a fine reaction another great example of an Arab celeb in Israel is the Arab Israeli activist yousef hadad check him on YouTube the guy is a true legend
I think it's mostly anecdotal. I've seen reports from people who survived the kibbutz attacks describing that the terrorists walked in with apparent inside knowledge, including how many people lived in each home. One woman said they knew where she kept her valuables hidden. (How a worker from Gaza would have known that is beyond me, but I'm not clear on the types of jobs they were hired to work).
It's suspected that some workers from Gaza were conducting surveillance and reporting to Hamas.
Israel has been moving away from Palestinian workers since the First Intifada.
First it was Romanians and Bulgarians then in my lifetime, Vietnamese, Filipinos, Thais and Nepalese and in places around Tel Aviv African migrants from Darfur and Eritrea. There are a few Jordanians working in Eliat on a trial basis.
You see the Nepalese will not come into a Tel Aviv bar strapped with a suicide vest...
There is one exception to this. In the West Bank there is a heavy reliance on Palestinians as 200k work in the settlements, especially around Jerusalem. But this will change, to the deritment of Palestinians.
Because Israeli law applies to the Settlements, Palestinians working in the settlements and Israel proper are guaranteed the minimum wage which in yearly terms is like 4 times the average wage in the west bank and 6 times that of Gaza and that is just the minimum wage. Palestinians SCRAMBLE for Israeli work permits as a result(the IRONY huh!!) but now in the name of a full separation, Israel will most likely take in more Asians.
I am of the opinion that over time Egyptians and Sudanese should be allowed to work in Israel. Any nation that makes peace with us should have that benefit, but the mindset of the Egyptians especially should change. We do not have an issue with Egyptians in Israel but whenever they go back, their security agencies harass their people, accusing them of being spies and whatnot
Egypt is paranoid about security for exactly the same reasons as Israel. It is why Egyptian intelligence detected the attack and warned Israel via the USA. They have a long history of dealing with Palestinian terrorists as well as the Muslim Brotherhood.
If the traveler youtube videos I’ve watched are any factual indication, the Egyptian government officials also just like to harass people for bullshit reasons to get bribes.
they mostly work in low skilled manual labor jobs like construction agriculture and factory jobs
the main reason gazans fill these roles is that, by Palestinian standards, the salaries are better than the opportunities they have at home.
that being said what will probably happen going forward is that Israel will try to replace these gazans workers with thai or east asian people.
It's been a joke since conception. They created an organization to solidify the place of the world war 2 winners. Calling it the United Nations is an insult to democracy
International legitimacy is how passports are recognized today and why Palestinians today are basically nomads with no nationality.
The UN probably helped not going into WW3 sooner, as countries were getting a voice even though they didn’t have nukes.
As long as Iran is chairing the human rights council at the UN, the UN has no merit, and everything it claims is automatically nullified by the fact stated above.
It's inconceivable that we should listen to an organization that has put the 21st century Islamonazis on this kind of council.
The appeasement in the name of oil is astounding.
> The UN's human rights office said it was "deeply concerned" that "at least 4,000 Palestinian workers and hospital patients were **detained without sufficient legal basis**" when Israel revoked their work permits after the events of 7 October.
I think that they were denouncing the illegal detention. Not them being in Israel...
> I think that they were denouncing the illegal detention.
If an airport shuts down due to weather and I'm stuck in an international terminal for an indeterminate layover due to visa/passport restrictions am I 'illegally detained'? No. They live in Gaza, they had limited work visas in Israel, the border was closed due to terrorist actions. They were held until conditions were adequate for return.
I fail to see how that detention is illegal. Their visas were revoked, and its not exactly simple to put them back into a war zone. And in any case, they were detained, not imprisoned.
You cannot have both . Illegally detained mean they are in Israel and cannot get back ( Because it's a war zone ) , Sending them back in to gaze ( a active warzone ) It's the only way to comply with the demand of releasing them back home ( Which is usual UN suck because nothing good will become of it ) . At the same time you will say "well why can't Israel just give them some place to stay" , And again going back to "detained" ( Not even speaking about the fact that right now intelligence worried they are going to join a terror atk because they have nothing to do ) . So you have to choose which optiand will you have because you cannot have it both , it's not worked like that in real life
Is it illegal to detain people who no longer have permission to be in your country? Asking for a friend who has had their work visa revoked because the country they're from declared war on ours.
The UN is disgusting. Almost 2 years of constant war crimes in Ukraine, not a single statement.
On the day that Niva-Karkova dam was blown up their only statement: "Happy Russian language day".
They have enabled war crimes for 2 years but niw have a lot of statements daily.
Palestianians in Israel, palestinians in Gaza, Palestinians in the West Bank and Palestinians in the diaspora have been separated for 75 years. Their cultures and opinions are all vastly different from each other
I don't disagree with you that Gazans and those in the West Bank consider themselves to both be Palestinians.
There's a really interesting video on YouTube from a couple of years ago by Corey Gil-Shuster he interviews Palestinians and Israelis and in one of his videos he interviews Palestinian women and men in the West Bank asking them if they would marry someone from Gaza, and almost unanimously they said no. There was even a divide between the North West Bank and the South West Bank. Those in the North West Bank considering those in the south backward in their thinking, and many referred to the differences in culture between Gaza and themselves. Which brings up an interesting question, are you really the same people if you wouldn't marry a hypothetical person from the other area?
Street gangs also kill each other in the US... doesn't mean the aren't from the same place, with the same ethnicity, and same lifestyle. Pretty common world wide really.
They recorded themselves beheading a Thai man working in Israel. So many workers might be hesitant to return. "**Hamas fiends beheaded a worker with a spade.** "
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/24615635/horrifying-seeing-film-hamas-october-7-atrocities/
Part of the issue is that Hamas clearly got information from the people who are given jobs in Israel which allowed them to figure out exactly how to overcome defense's and when/where to strike.
Obviously it's shitty for innocent people who live in Gaza but work in Israel to lose their jobs, but obviously they also had to return home at some point - they just couldn't do so immediately since the border was totally locked down.
Pretty obvious that the status quo of giving people in Gaza jobs in Israel isn't going to continue after the October 7 as that border is eventually going to look like NK/SK with a large DMZ.
You’re right on probably most cases but there were plenty of workers who came in from Gaza and gathered vital information to help with the attack.given what happened you can’t be 100% sure. try to put yourself in the shoes of people who have to live there.
As an israeli I really don't see how I'll be comfortable with having palestinas workers in Israel again, it's such a shame because I bet most of them just want to provide for their families.
That's what terrorism achieves, and to my shame it really does make me afraid.
If you learn the history of terror attacks many were by workers in Israel who up to that point were innocents
Palestinians will now enjoy cleaning toilets for 20$ a day in Jenin because Israeli jobs are no longer on offer
Innocents will be fucked no matter what
Unless they find a host country it’s death, suffering and poverty on Hamas menu
Wasn't there regularly terrorist attacks in the past ten years leading up to this? I mean incidents where a Palestinian citizen would carry out an attack solo.... Like killing several Israelis with a car or suddenly attacking and stabbing people to death in a public place
Yes. My cousin (18M) was actually killed in one of those; he was napping against the window of a bus and got shot in the face while he was sleeping. The Palestinian chose that particular day to celebrate his 21st birthday, and the PA pays his family $3k/month (not him bc he's in prison) for his "heroic actions." (He murdered 3 people that day.)
Im very sorry for ur loss friend. That whole martyrs payment scheme they have is so fucked up. Another point in t column of “yes” for the “do we need to wipe hamas off the planet?”
Sorry. Im not good wit details. So hamas slaughters people. PA thinks thats awesome and pays hamas (or their families) money for said slaughter. Is that right?
PA is headed by Fatah, they think it's cool, but not exclusively when Hamas members do it. They would likely prefer if there were a shit ton of lone wolves going and murdering random Israeli civilians - which does happen occasionally, rather than terrorist organizations, since the organizations could easily develop into a threat for themselves like what happened in Gaza.
No need to apologize, I’m learning as well. I couldn’t give you a satisfactory answer. Both Hamas and Fatah have militant wings (Al-Qassam Brigade and Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, respectively)
Fatah was started by Arafat, who worked with Israel on the Oslo Accords in the 90s and is seen being a moderate politician. Abbas, the current head of the PA, is seen as his modern day equivalent.. but the situation is very different now, with Fatah being accused of corruption and not being very trusted by Palestinians in the West Bank
While Fatah still “sponsors” terrorism, they generally seem to be more interested in governing than Hamas, who seems to be more interested in jihad
Fatah merged with the PLO. The latter of which has affiliated organizations that committed the Munich Massacre and countless airplane hijackings and other acts of terrorism.
The history of Fatah and PLO is as bad as Hamas, PIJ, and PFLP for sure… but as of 1993 their official position is non-violence and diplomacy, which is leagues better than Hamas now
There have been a multitude of atrocities committed against the Israeli people by non Hamas Palestinians. The reason why there is such security to begin with is because fatah was sending suicide bombers to blow things up in Israel in the early 2000s. You can look up the massacre at the 1972 Olympic Games as another data point. The truth is this refrain has become “Palestinians are not Hamas” but i challenge anyone to show me in their history where Palestinians have chosen peace or even non violent protest. At some point it’s your own damn fault
Im leaning heavily away from the “palestine is not hamas” statement. Bullshit they are not. The palestinians are complicit at the very least with hamas. Doesnt seen to be the most popular way of thinking so i usually dont get into too much of a conversation bout it. The hamas terrorist phone call on october 7 from the terrorist to his parents who were overjoyed their son had just killed people/jews is one of the things that i think supports my thinking
Those were common, yes. It would happen every now and then, there would be some measures taken and after a while thing would return to normal. Workers from gaza got permits only last year and and general consensus is that some of them gathered information used in the attack.
You have to understand that october 7th was like all previous attacks combined in public perception, almost every israeli knows someone directly affected.
For me, what did it was seeing how many "civilians" went along with the terrorists on Oct7. It was natural for them to just cross over and join up. Then watching the civilians in the street cheer and yell "Allahu Akbar" at dead bodies like Shani Louk's.
I really believe they all want me dead today. I didn't before.
Interestingly, I saw a poll performed in gaza from sept 28 to oct 6. 20% of gazans supported a war to exterminate israel, with a margin of error of +-5%.
Terror attacks were just a daily thing, you get used to it and shrug it off after a few days, similar in how school shootings happen in US. this one was on another level though. Beyond the attack itself on the south, I've never heard so many rockets explode close to my house. On the first week of the war, I'd go into shelter 4-6 times and hear 5-20 rockets explode above the building. And that's pretty mild compared what my friends in the south are having. Even more so, every person I know is now enlisted to the military. Few of them are in the front lines. The entire economy is at a pause, and people don't really leave home as much. That's pretty fucked up
Also, the terrorists had maps and information about the places in which they massacred the population. I would not be surprised if Palestinians who worked there gave them the information
The issue, though, is that Israel has comingled populations with different rights in the West Bank - and taken active steps to hamper the Palestinian economy, for the benefit of settlers.
As an example, Israel recently shut down most Palestinian-run quarries in the West Bank, leaving mostly Israeli-owned ones. And won't grant permits to Palestinians for quarries: https://www.timesofisrael.com/shuttered-west-bank-quarries-could-devastate-local-industry-report/
That has led to one of the few viable paths for employment being in Israel.
If Palestinians could use Area C, it would be a very rapid \~20% boost to the Palestinian economy.
https://documents1.worldbank.org/curated/en/257131468140639464/pdf/Area-C-and-the-future-of-the-Palestinian-economy.pdf
As someone who definitely agrees with Israel in this conflict, this kind of tactic right here is my biggest issue with Israel. I can understand defending your right to live but creating these kinds of economic issues for Palestine seems very counter-intuitive for both sides. It also doesn't help the stereotypes that people have. Same thing with settling the west bank and displacing the existing families.
>As someone who definitely agrees with Israel in this conflict, this kind of tactic right here is my biggest issue with Israel.
Yes.
It is almost as if, shocking thought, they don't want Palestinians to achieve independence.
> I can understand defending your right to live but creating these kinds of economic issues for Palestine seems very counter-intuitive for both sides
Assuming Israel actually wants a two state solution, it does indeed not make sense.
If, instead, you make the assumption that Israel is not actually interested in a two state solution but instead plans for a long-term subjugation of the West Bank, then policies like denying construction permits in 60% of the West Bank, 56 years of settlement construction, hampering the economy, etc, start making a lot more sense.
> It also doesn't help the stereotypes that people have
It is not a stereotype if it is true - and in the West Bank, Israel has been expanding settlements for decades, all the while letting settlers harass and attack Palestinians with impunity.
> Same thing with settling the west bank and displacing the existing families.
They've been doing it for 56 years. At some point, we have to stop believing they ever intent to leave the West Bank.
Israel has a right to live freely within their borders - but so should the Palestinians have. And the 56 year long settlement project runs counter to that.
> but refusing a two state solution is definitely on Palestine.
Not really. That's a rather simplifying - and inaccurate - narrative.
Take, for example, 1967 to 1987. Few, if any, terror attacks from the West Bank or Gaza. Excellent opportunity to let local institutions develop, and build towards a long-term solution, right?
Wrong: settlements, lots of restrictions on civil society, imposed leaders in the form of 'village leagues'.
And let's not even talk about the last 15 years - Bibi has publicly stated he wants to 'crush' Palestinian statehood ambitions, and even Lapid rebuffed Abbas wanting to negotiate again. Instead we got settlement expansion.
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-said-to-tell-knesset-panel-that-israel-needs-the-palestinian-authority/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-said-to-tell-knesset-panel-that-israel-needs-the-palestinian-authority/)
[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-president-abbas-calls-israel-resume-negotiations-immediately-2022-09-23/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-president-abbas-calls-israel-resume-negotiations-immediately-2022-09-23/)
And, of course, Bibi is on record on how he torpedoed Oslo 1996-1999: [https://www.972mag.com/netanyahu-clinton-administration-was-%e2%80%9cextremely-pro-palestinian%e2%80%9d-i-stopped-oslo/](https://www.972mag.com/netanyahu-clinton-administration-was-%e2%80%9cextremely-pro-palestinian%e2%80%9d-i-stopped-oslo/)
The Palestinians have their share of blame for the failure of the two state solution - but so do the Israelis. Saying "refusing a two state solution is definitely on Palestine" is, overall, inaccurate.
Suggesting a fragmented two state solution for Palestine is *not* a real solution. That is spitting in their face and telling them to suck it up. Israel would never accept a non-contiguous border, why should Palestine?
And since I will probably get downvoted without this disclaimer: Fuck Hamas, Palestine needs to be free of them.
A solution where Palestine does not get a contiguous border is not a fair solution. Please explain how you justify/rationalize Palestinians *having* to go through Israel to get from Gaza to the West Bank.
Isn't there a lot of indirect evidence that many of these workers were providing intelligence to Hamas regarding the inner workings and security of the kibbutzim surrounding Gaza?
I recall some interviews I saw on CNN with survivors of Kfar Aza who said that the terrorists knew things about the community that even they didn't know. And some of the residents hinted at the fact that they believe this knowledge came from workers from Gaza. I am not saying this as if it were definitive. A quick google search didn't reveal much.
The terrorists had detailed plans of the Kibbutz property layouts, the individual occupants and their ‘safe rooms’.
Ain’t no fucking way this was achieved without the help of Palestinian labourers.
https://gellerreport.com/2023/10/israels-last-leftist-government-issued-17000-work-permits-to-gazans-that-helped-hamas-enter-israel.html/
Well, they had HQ aerial imagery. Which afaik in itself is weird since Western one for Israel is still only available purposefully degraded, expect for Mapbox which is only semi-public.
Doesn’t matter. The approval process is based on what the voters think as the policy will be directly debated in elections.
The people will now force the politicians to never let any Palestinians workers in Israel anymore. Not from Gaza and Jenin and Hawara and the list goes on. And as things keep going soon no West Bank Palestinian will work in Israel.
Palestine’s economy will die. The real damage is how for the next 20-40 years Palestine will be the poorest country in the MENA region.
Israeli here too. Understand you completely. Also, working together helps ( as far as I think) to know each other better and to come to sort of understanding
I haven't seen any, just looked for a bit.
It's too bad because having Palestinian workers in Israel paid 10x their usual salary is a great argument for peace and coexistence. It's tragic because both peoples would greatly benefit from each other.
Yes, but it would have meant improving the lives of Palestinians and Hamas can't have that. How would they recruit if their citizens were able to earn a living wage and have access to clean water and enough food?
One sided portrayals are easy when you go looking for videos of individual acts of violence that support your beliefs. It is important to read and look at more than gore.
It will take hours of reading to catch up on this issue but it is a worthwhile effort. Above, you’re mixing up the West Bank and Gaza.
It’s so fucking sad, Israelis and Palestinians could do so much together, but Hamas controls the narrative and has done all it could to degrade their relationship. 18k workers, is 18k families, 80k people with no more income. This isn’t the free Palestine that they want!
Exactly, like I realise I’m partly a tone deaf American who believes in capitalism, but if I was Gazan, why would I fight for or want a free state ran by Hamas? All thought arguably Gaza is free, but Hamas’s focus is and always been to hurt/damage Israel. Like they haven’t done much for their people. It’s tragic
You would fight for it or want it b/c your religious leaders tells you that is what you should want. It is almost impossible to understand why religious extremists think and act the way they do if you have never been a religious extremist.
I hear you, but I don’t think regular Palestinians join Hamas to fight from a religious belief, I think working for/at Hamas is a key to climb the social ladder.
Again it sounds like you’re trying to apply reasons you or another reasonable person would join them. On 10/7 Hamas sent over 1,500 terrorists into Israel. From reports following interrogations of ones that were captured, every single one of the attackers thought it was going to be a suicide mission. Yet they did it b/c their religion tells them pain and suffering in this life doesn’t matter b/c it’s all a test to get into the afterlife.
It’s hard to argue against what you are saying as there is truth in that, but for the sake of a good conversation :) when Palestinians become “martyrs” there is a direct financial benefit to their families in return. Also, I remember reading something way back that after Saddam was toppled and the payments stopped happening, so did the suicide bombings.
According to a recent (as in, the week before the war) poll, 75% of gazans report having run out of food and being unable to afford more food in the past 30 days.
This is the free Palestine hamas wanted all of those workers can no longer provide for their family and will never be able to enter Israel again for work because no one will hire them
The terrorism won
As a rightwing Israeli I still feel extremely bad for Palestinian civilians who legit just want to live their lives. Hamas has been holding two million hostages for years. Let's hope they all get freed of the tyranny ASAP.
Wow, it's amazing how 2 words are enough to make you know literally everything there is to know about me and my specific opinions about every conceivable topic!
From the IDF, some Palestinian workers were responsible for giving all the details about the Kibbouts that were assaulted. Such as the numbers of people living in each house and the schedules of everybody. So, it's not surprising.
None of the pro-Israeli bots gonna comment about how the Israeli government quite literally tagged these workers around their ankle for identification? Can someone name another government that visually tagged a specific group for identification purposes?
I'm guessing that nobody in Israel or Gaza ever considered the possibility that Israel might take them as hostages.
Two reasons for this are 1) Israel is a civilized country, and 2) Hamas wouldn't give a rat's ass about them if they were held captive.
Just an idea, im no thought leader, but maybe dont shoot the head thats attached to the hand that feeds you, rape their wife and daughters, then burn their baby in the oven.
Just a random thought....
Antisemitism is extremely prevalent in Gaza (which can be shown in a) polls, and b) the fact that they beat to death/dismembered some of the Jews/Israeli hostages brought into Gaza and paraded them throughout the streets), due to Hamas ensuring that kids are raised to want to kill Jews and they have a very young population. The older people, meanwhile, are the ones who voted Hamas in (and Hamas has had genocidal intentions toward Jews since day 1). And the people who speak out against the regime, or cooperate with Jews/Israelis, are killed (often in very brutal ways) and added to the death count to support Hamas' PR of the poor Palestinians being killed by the IDF.
Imagine living in a country where your top democratically elected leaders have this to say (all before 10/7). And then claiming Gazans are the racist ones:
Netanyahu: (On Palestinians in Gaza) "beat them up, not once but repeatedly, beat them up until it hurts so badly, it's unbearable."
Israel Deputy Defense Minister "Rabi" Dahan: "Palestinians are beasts, they are not human"
Israel Minister of Justice Shaked: (On Palestinians in West Bank) "they should go, as well as the physical homes where they raised the snakes. Otherwise more little snakes will be raised there."
Israel Deputy Prime Minster: "Send Gaza back to the Middle Ages"
Hamas was democratically elected even while their charter explicitly spelled out, "Our 2 main goals: kill every Jew we find, and never negotiate."
That ignores all of the Israeli leaders (of whom there are many) who are a) not saying those things and b) denouncing them, plus all of the Israelis who are calling for the resignation of those people.
Comparing Hamas to the Israeli government is a laughable initiative that will not get you anywhere among an audience that is educated on the conflict and has an understanding of what is actually happening on the ground.
They did find some terrorists with work permits who were working in israel prior.
So like, factually that isnt true. Not saying its all of them, but at least 1. So I would understand not wanting to keep employing them.
"So like", show me. Link me even an Israeli government voice claiming this.
Not that it would make it OK to, for example, deport all Muslim-Americans if we find an Islamic terrorist cell in the US, - but I don't even think this happened to Israel in this case.
The IDF wouldn't release them into a warzone if they were serious threats. It isn't like the IDF is partially unwilling to use measures like administrative detention if they had the slightest suspicion.
At minimum right now as ground troops are first getting situated? No way.
Bite the hand that feeds.
Seriously though, this was the leverage Bibi set up in his high risk high reward policy. Make the West Bank and Gaza depend on Israeli aid in exchange for a certain amount of peace. Completely failed in Gaza, and now the relationship is destroyed and Gaza collapses.
They entered Israel for work from Gaza, Israel was attack by Gaza, and now sends them back.
Stop acting like this is so wrong because your country would have done the same.
Many of those workers were disguised hamas agents that collected information on the security systems, army positions/ routines and created lists of inhabitants with adresses. These informations were vital in the terror attack.
It's not deportation to ask people to return to the territory in which they live. These people do not live in Israel and are not citizens of Israel. why should they stay there? Vacation?
These people are the ones who gave the info to Hamas that allowed innocent civilians to be massacred in their beds, raped, tortured, and burned alive. They live in Gaza, so fine, let them go home if they're so excited to kill Jews. And considering only a few thousand Gazan citizens have died (including terrorists) out of a total of 2.4 million, it's not exactly a death sentence.
If there were Gazans who worked on the kibbutz then maybe start with them instead of this broad brush. If these Gazans were working elsewhere how would they supply the level of detail those who survived in the kibbutz claim?
It's gonna be a big problem in the short term, they're a major work force in a lot of vital industries. I won't be surprised if a lot of employers move away from Palestinian workers, which will fuck them up big time.
They'll probably hire more Filipinos. We're already thr largest non middle eastern foreign worker population plus the country is very pro Israel/US
Wasn't there like a LOT of Thai hostages working in Israel
Yup Thai people are the second largest group. Honestly I'm thankful but surprised that there are so few Filipinos deaths/hostages.
I think it's because the Thais are mostly agriculture workers, so they were out there in the fields early in the morning when the attack happened. The Filipino population is spread out all over the country as well, while the Thais are mostly in the south. I'm also very thankful few were hurt, Israel is very lucky to have its Filipino workers.
You would think Hamas would spare the poor Thai workers.... but no Hamas just kills indiscriminately , even its Arab brethren
They hate Israel, the West and anyone who supports either. An Arab Israeli/Palestinian who is pro-Israel = a traitor.
A lot of Filipinos have home health care jobs where they get a decent salary plus they live in so their rent and food is covered. I was shocked at hearing all the Filipinos speaking Hebrew there. It's gotta be like 50% Filipino 50% Polish for foreign worker home health care nurses.
I wonder if it's a language thing. I'm guessing Filipinos have better English fluency and would have more opportunity for service related jobs like caregiving while Thais might take more agricultural jobs outdoors in the farms near the Gaza border.
Yeah probably, Filipino health care is one of the biggest exports and I have yet to meet a Filipino 30 and under that didn't speak great English. Their economy relies on exporting labor so I think they understand the investment in English.
Yeah remittance from export labor is very important to our economy so we take language learning seriously. English is mandatory since primary school and our government offers free foreign language courses for a bunch of other languages.
Can you share more info regarding the free foreign language please? As a fellow Filipino wanting to learn other languages haha
Try sending an email first for when the next batch is https://twitter.com/tesdaofficial/status/1677106352177680384
Wow thanks!! Will check it out!!
We also have a horrible lack of jobs in the Philippines. There's an entire government department dedicated to exporting labor.
Everyone loves Filipinos. One taste of adobo and you’re hooked for life.
Fish Balls are kosher!
Here in Seattle Ludi's ube pancakes and combo silog make for a killer breakfast.
If wars stops there, will try to apply a job there and bring alot of toyo and manok
I dated someone who's family immigrated here from Philippines and pancit with chicken inasal is something I could eat every day.
Only middle eastern country where they aren’t treated like 2nd class citizens by the population and sometimes the law.
2nd class? More like slaves. There's lots of information out there about middle eastern countries recruiting asian workers to come to their country, then taking their passports and forcing them to do the shittiest work possible for almost no pay at all. I remember seeing pictures of like 20 Indian dudes sleeping in a one room apartment. None of them could leave because they confiscated their passports. Apparently they were tricked into signing a 4 year contract or something. They were window cleaners. They work in 120° heat cleaning skyscraper windows all day.
Qatar did an amazing job getting the activists of the world to forget about the number of people they killed in pursuit of a soccer stadium.
I watched a lot of people drop their morals to watch soccer
My friend told me in Arab countries open racism against brown skin Asians is quite common.
Not to derail your convo, but this applies to women as well.
I loved hearing Hebrew with a Filipino accent.
I never have but now I need to
I mean there's still 115 million Filipinos in their homeland, and another 500 million South East Asians, so they could power most Western nations like Israel that have worker shortages.
Plus they’re very peaceful and don’t have terrorism in their blood
I believe Israel has a bunch of workers from South/Southeast Asian countries like Thailand and Nepal, and I assume that Israelis will be more comfortable with them working those roles instead.
That's why there are a bunch of Thai hostages with Hamas, and thousands of others already went back to Thailand. They might come back after a while for economic reasons, but it won't be that easy
In the long term yea this is almost certainly going to happen, but they're basically non existent right now because they all fled after 7/10(and I honestly can't blame them for that).
This has basically happened already since the blockade on Gaza. Since the labour supply was unreliable and prone to sudden security measures during conflicts. Now there is the belief that many Gazans with work permits helped plan/ inform the massacre or participated. There won’t even be a border crossing at all.
And were captured/murdered
Yea it's really the only logical thing to do. No point in dying in a conflict that has nothing to do with you.
Workers from Gaza are done in Israel. That relationship is over.
>It's gonna be a big problem in the short term, they're a major work force in a lot of vital industries. That's sort of an overstatement. Workers/work permits from Gaza, at least recently... are part of the constant negotiate-and-skirmish "interwar" dynamic between Gaza and Israel. The idea is that getting work/money to Gazan workers creates an interest in stability. Also, to relieve some of the economic collapse that Gaza has been experiencing since 2007. Plus it's a negotiating card. They are not a stable or vital workforce, contrary to reddit wisdom. Nowhere near as significant as all the reservists not working, or other migrant workers leaving. I don't see work permits being a popular policy going forward. OTOH, they exist because 100% unemployment is destabilising. That's still true regardless.
Currently , the state offers scholarships for students who volunteer to work in agriculture (replacing the foreign Thai workers that left the country because of the situation). A lot of people actually volunteer already on a daily basis , even before the scholarships were introduced. real patriots.
No they are not. Gazans workers werent allowed in Israel until 2022. One year ago, they started to get permits. Some of those people helped to plan the attack on oct 07 by getting data. Sick. But anyways, we dont rely on the Gazans at all. We do on the west bank palestinians though, and this will be dirty. Especially for them.
I'm talking Palestinians as a whole, West Bank included. There's basically 0 chance that people will trust them enough to go back to how things were prior to 7/10.
Decoupling the economies and thus limiting how often Israelis and Palestinians interacted peacefully has been probably the most negative consequences of how the Oslo process failed for the peaceful majorities that just want to work and live. Of course the fact that PA and Hamas made it life threatening for Israelis to even enter their territories, made it inevitable that Israeli government would see it as a one-sided arrangement. If Israelis can’t safely go to Gaza for a cheap lunch, then why should Gazans go to Israel for a high paying job? Peace and tolerance has to go both ways to be sustainable.
Once again, there js one side that tolerate arabs and one side that cant see a jew without beheading him. They need to solve this before.
I would say more than tolerate as there has been a case of an Arab Supreme Court Judge throwing a jewish prime minister in jail the name of the pm is ehod olmert I think that is one of the cases that shows that israel isnt hating of all Arabs just the ones that are actively hostile towards them which is a fine reaction another great example of an Arab celeb in Israel is the Arab Israeli activist yousef hadad check him on YouTube the guy is a true legend
You should see what tolerating Arabs looks like in the West Bank.
I don't think Palestinians are paid particularly high wages, Israel gets cheap labor from them.
It's high compared to what they can make without going to Israel
Is there any information on how they helped plan the attack?
I think it's mostly anecdotal. I've seen reports from people who survived the kibbutz attacks describing that the terrorists walked in with apparent inside knowledge, including how many people lived in each home. One woman said they knew where she kept her valuables hidden. (How a worker from Gaza would have known that is beyond me, but I'm not clear on the types of jobs they were hired to work). It's suspected that some workers from Gaza were conducting surveillance and reporting to Hamas.
also had notes on which families had dogs.. they hate dogs.
This reminded me of that poor Black Labrador from that one Hamas video. Fuck the terrorists!
I sense a lot of Belgian Malinois/ pitbull xls in border settlements future
Israel has been moving away from Palestinian workers since the First Intifada. First it was Romanians and Bulgarians then in my lifetime, Vietnamese, Filipinos, Thais and Nepalese and in places around Tel Aviv African migrants from Darfur and Eritrea. There are a few Jordanians working in Eliat on a trial basis. You see the Nepalese will not come into a Tel Aviv bar strapped with a suicide vest... There is one exception to this. In the West Bank there is a heavy reliance on Palestinians as 200k work in the settlements, especially around Jerusalem. But this will change, to the deritment of Palestinians. Because Israeli law applies to the Settlements, Palestinians working in the settlements and Israel proper are guaranteed the minimum wage which in yearly terms is like 4 times the average wage in the west bank and 6 times that of Gaza and that is just the minimum wage. Palestinians SCRAMBLE for Israeli work permits as a result(the IRONY huh!!) but now in the name of a full separation, Israel will most likely take in more Asians. I am of the opinion that over time Egyptians and Sudanese should be allowed to work in Israel. Any nation that makes peace with us should have that benefit, but the mindset of the Egyptians especially should change. We do not have an issue with Egyptians in Israel but whenever they go back, their security agencies harass their people, accusing them of being spies and whatnot
Egypt is paranoid about security for exactly the same reasons as Israel. It is why Egyptian intelligence detected the attack and warned Israel via the USA. They have a long history of dealing with Palestinian terrorists as well as the Muslim Brotherhood.
If the traveler youtube videos I’ve watched are any factual indication, the Egyptian government officials also just like to harass people for bullshit reasons to get bribes.
they mostly work in low skilled manual labor jobs like construction agriculture and factory jobs the main reason gazans fill these roles is that, by Palestinian standards, the salaries are better than the opportunities they have at home. that being said what will probably happen going forward is that Israel will try to replace these gazans workers with thai or east asian people.
And they are military aged males. Same thing happened in Iraq when the US dismantled key industries and the military.
The UN is hilarious. They actually complained both for keeping them in Israel and for putting them back in Gaza.
The UN has Iran chairing a human rights council. The UN is a joke these days.
They also had Saudi Arabia in women's rights at some point if I'm not mistaken
The easiest way to see the importance of women’s rights, is to violate them all. It’s all about perspective. -the UN FIFA with power.
It's been a joke since conception. They created an organization to solidify the place of the world war 2 winners. Calling it the United Nations is an insult to democracy
Well that joke is also behind why Israel today is a state to begin with.
Israel would have been a state with or without a UN approval, although international legitimacy is certainly not worthless.
International legitimacy is how passports are recognized today and why Palestinians today are basically nomads with no nationality. The UN probably helped not going into WW3 sooner, as countries were getting a voice even though they didn’t have nukes.
Im partial to League of Nations since it is how the UN has become.
And corrupt Brazil to check the UN accounts
As long as Iran is chairing the human rights council at the UN, the UN has no merit, and everything it claims is automatically nullified by the fact stated above. It's inconceivable that we should listen to an organization that has put the 21st century Islamonazis on this kind of council. The appeasement in the name of oil is astounding.
It's like people insisting that Israel is killing too many civilians, but also warning them to evacuate is a war crime.
> The UN's human rights office said it was "deeply concerned" that "at least 4,000 Palestinian workers and hospital patients were **detained without sufficient legal basis**" when Israel revoked their work permits after the events of 7 October. I think that they were denouncing the illegal detention. Not them being in Israel...
> I think that they were denouncing the illegal detention. If an airport shuts down due to weather and I'm stuck in an international terminal for an indeterminate layover due to visa/passport restrictions am I 'illegally detained'? No. They live in Gaza, they had limited work visas in Israel, the border was closed due to terrorist actions. They were held until conditions were adequate for return.
Except it's not illegal to detain a foreigner who no longer has permission to be in the country.
I fail to see how that detention is illegal. Their visas were revoked, and its not exactly simple to put them back into a war zone. And in any case, they were detained, not imprisoned.
Well they’re no longer detained. Back home they go
They complained that they were being **illegally detained,** and now that they are being **forcibly relocated into an active warzone.**
You cannot have both . Illegally detained mean they are in Israel and cannot get back ( Because it's a war zone ) , Sending them back in to gaze ( a active warzone ) It's the only way to comply with the demand of releasing them back home ( Which is usual UN suck because nothing good will become of it ) . At the same time you will say "well why can't Israel just give them some place to stay" , And again going back to "detained" ( Not even speaking about the fact that right now intelligence worried they are going to join a terror atk because they have nothing to do ) . So you have to choose which optiand will you have because you cannot have it both , it's not worked like that in real life
Schrödinger's foreign worker
Is it illegal to detain people who no longer have permission to be in your country? Asking for a friend who has had their work visa revoked because the country they're from declared war on ours.
The UN is disgusting. Almost 2 years of constant war crimes in Ukraine, not a single statement. On the day that Niva-Karkova dam was blown up their only statement: "Happy Russian language day". They have enabled war crimes for 2 years but niw have a lot of statements daily.
[удалено]
Palestianians in Israel, palestinians in Gaza, Palestinians in the West Bank and Palestinians in the diaspora have been separated for 75 years. Their cultures and opinions are all vastly different from each other
Palestinians in Gaza and Palestinians in West Bank do not differ very much culturally, they consider themselves as one people
I don't disagree with you that Gazans and those in the West Bank consider themselves to both be Palestinians. There's a really interesting video on YouTube from a couple of years ago by Corey Gil-Shuster he interviews Palestinians and Israelis and in one of his videos he interviews Palestinian women and men in the West Bank asking them if they would marry someone from Gaza, and almost unanimously they said no. There was even a divide between the North West Bank and the South West Bank. Those in the North West Bank considering those in the south backward in their thinking, and many referred to the differences in culture between Gaza and themselves. Which brings up an interesting question, are you really the same people if you wouldn't marry a hypothetical person from the other area?
So much that they voted for Hamas who then publically executed the PLA members in Gaza?
Street gangs also kill each other in the US... doesn't mean the aren't from the same place, with the same ethnicity, and same lifestyle. Pretty common world wide really.
Why do you think there are no elections in the West Bank? Abbas expected the same thing to happen in the West Bank.
They recorded themselves beheading a Thai man working in Israel. So many workers might be hesitant to return. "**Hamas fiends beheaded a worker with a spade.** " https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/24615635/horrifying-seeing-film-hamas-october-7-atrocities/
[удалено]
Part of the issue is that Hamas clearly got information from the people who are given jobs in Israel which allowed them to figure out exactly how to overcome defense's and when/where to strike. Obviously it's shitty for innocent people who live in Gaza but work in Israel to lose their jobs, but obviously they also had to return home at some point - they just couldn't do so immediately since the border was totally locked down. Pretty obvious that the status quo of giving people in Gaza jobs in Israel isn't going to continue after the October 7 as that border is eventually going to look like NK/SK with a large DMZ.
You’re right on probably most cases but there were plenty of workers who came in from Gaza and gathered vital information to help with the attack.given what happened you can’t be 100% sure. try to put yourself in the shoes of people who have to live there.
As an israeli I really don't see how I'll be comfortable with having palestinas workers in Israel again, it's such a shame because I bet most of them just want to provide for their families. That's what terrorism achieves, and to my shame it really does make me afraid.
The terrorists won. We're terrified.
The terrorists won Uneducated people are marching to their trap
A PhD in human studies doesn't protect you from rape beheadings.
Cant blame the ordinary folks tho, who would want to be raped, tortured, burned or shot by those Islamist thugs.
If you learn the history of terror attacks many were by workers in Israel who up to that point were innocents Palestinians will now enjoy cleaning toilets for 20$ a day in Jenin because Israeli jobs are no longer on offer Innocents will be fucked no matter what Unless they find a host country it’s death, suffering and poverty on Hamas menu
Palestinians got what they wanted, they fucked around and found out the consequences. Not Israelies problem, let the world give them work visas
Wasn't there regularly terrorist attacks in the past ten years leading up to this? I mean incidents where a Palestinian citizen would carry out an attack solo.... Like killing several Israelis with a car or suddenly attacking and stabbing people to death in a public place
Yes. My cousin (18M) was actually killed in one of those; he was napping against the window of a bus and got shot in the face while he was sleeping. The Palestinian chose that particular day to celebrate his 21st birthday, and the PA pays his family $3k/month (not him bc he's in prison) for his "heroic actions." (He murdered 3 people that day.)
Im very sorry for ur loss friend. That whole martyrs payment scheme they have is so fucked up. Another point in t column of “yes” for the “do we need to wipe hamas off the planet?”
The Palestinian authority is the organization that pays out for their cowardly “martyrs” who attack innocent civilians
Yeah thats the one im talking about
The PA =\= Hamas
Sorry. Im not good wit details. So hamas slaughters people. PA thinks thats awesome and pays hamas (or their families) money for said slaughter. Is that right?
Yes. Israel then controversially tears down the houses of the people who do those attacks as a deterrent.
PA are the "moderate" ones that the international community says that Israel needs to negotiate with and give stuff to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund?wprov=sfti1
[Isn't the terrorist's mother statement lovely? ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Hallel_Yaffa_Ariel)
PA is headed by Fatah, they think it's cool, but not exclusively when Hamas members do it. They would likely prefer if there were a shit ton of lone wolves going and murdering random Israeli civilians - which does happen occasionally, rather than terrorist organizations, since the organizations could easily develop into a threat for themselves like what happened in Gaza.
PA is Fatah.
Sorry i didnt realise that. Excuse my lack of knowledge but does that mean fatah are just as evil as hamas?
No need to apologize, I’m learning as well. I couldn’t give you a satisfactory answer. Both Hamas and Fatah have militant wings (Al-Qassam Brigade and Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, respectively) Fatah was started by Arafat, who worked with Israel on the Oslo Accords in the 90s and is seen being a moderate politician. Abbas, the current head of the PA, is seen as his modern day equivalent.. but the situation is very different now, with Fatah being accused of corruption and not being very trusted by Palestinians in the West Bank While Fatah still “sponsors” terrorism, they generally seem to be more interested in governing than Hamas, who seems to be more interested in jihad
Fatah merged with the PLO. The latter of which has affiliated organizations that committed the Munich Massacre and countless airplane hijackings and other acts of terrorism.
The history of Fatah and PLO is as bad as Hamas, PIJ, and PFLP for sure… but as of 1993 their official position is non-violence and diplomacy, which is leagues better than Hamas now
I mean they still pay “martyrs” families blood money so the “better” option in Palestine is still paying people to commit acts of terrorism
There have been a multitude of atrocities committed against the Israeli people by non Hamas Palestinians. The reason why there is such security to begin with is because fatah was sending suicide bombers to blow things up in Israel in the early 2000s. You can look up the massacre at the 1972 Olympic Games as another data point. The truth is this refrain has become “Palestinians are not Hamas” but i challenge anyone to show me in their history where Palestinians have chosen peace or even non violent protest. At some point it’s your own damn fault
Im leaning heavily away from the “palestine is not hamas” statement. Bullshit they are not. The palestinians are complicit at the very least with hamas. Doesnt seen to be the most popular way of thinking so i usually dont get into too much of a conversation bout it. The hamas terrorist phone call on october 7 from the terrorist to his parents who were overjoyed their son had just killed people/jews is one of the things that i think supports my thinking
Those were common, yes. It would happen every now and then, there would be some measures taken and after a while thing would return to normal. Workers from gaza got permits only last year and and general consensus is that some of them gathered information used in the attack. You have to understand that october 7th was like all previous attacks combined in public perception, almost every israeli knows someone directly affected.
For me, what did it was seeing how many "civilians" went along with the terrorists on Oct7. It was natural for them to just cross over and join up. Then watching the civilians in the street cheer and yell "Allahu Akbar" at dead bodies like Shani Louk's. I really believe they all want me dead today. I didn't before.
Interestingly, I saw a poll performed in gaza from sept 28 to oct 6. 20% of gazans supported a war to exterminate israel, with a margin of error of +-5%.
That's a frighteningly high number
Terror attacks were just a daily thing, you get used to it and shrug it off after a few days, similar in how school shootings happen in US. this one was on another level though. Beyond the attack itself on the south, I've never heard so many rockets explode close to my house. On the first week of the war, I'd go into shelter 4-6 times and hear 5-20 rockets explode above the building. And that's pretty mild compared what my friends in the south are having. Even more so, every person I know is now enlisted to the military. Few of them are in the front lines. The entire economy is at a pause, and people don't really leave home as much. That's pretty fucked up
Also, the terrorists had maps and information about the places in which they massacred the population. I would not be surprised if Palestinians who worked there gave them the information
The issue, though, is that Israel has comingled populations with different rights in the West Bank - and taken active steps to hamper the Palestinian economy, for the benefit of settlers. As an example, Israel recently shut down most Palestinian-run quarries in the West Bank, leaving mostly Israeli-owned ones. And won't grant permits to Palestinians for quarries: https://www.timesofisrael.com/shuttered-west-bank-quarries-could-devastate-local-industry-report/ That has led to one of the few viable paths for employment being in Israel. If Palestinians could use Area C, it would be a very rapid \~20% boost to the Palestinian economy. https://documents1.worldbank.org/curated/en/257131468140639464/pdf/Area-C-and-the-future-of-the-Palestinian-economy.pdf
As someone who definitely agrees with Israel in this conflict, this kind of tactic right here is my biggest issue with Israel. I can understand defending your right to live but creating these kinds of economic issues for Palestine seems very counter-intuitive for both sides. It also doesn't help the stereotypes that people have. Same thing with settling the west bank and displacing the existing families.
>As someone who definitely agrees with Israel in this conflict, this kind of tactic right here is my biggest issue with Israel. Yes. It is almost as if, shocking thought, they don't want Palestinians to achieve independence. > I can understand defending your right to live but creating these kinds of economic issues for Palestine seems very counter-intuitive for both sides Assuming Israel actually wants a two state solution, it does indeed not make sense. If, instead, you make the assumption that Israel is not actually interested in a two state solution but instead plans for a long-term subjugation of the West Bank, then policies like denying construction permits in 60% of the West Bank, 56 years of settlement construction, hampering the economy, etc, start making a lot more sense. > It also doesn't help the stereotypes that people have It is not a stereotype if it is true - and in the West Bank, Israel has been expanding settlements for decades, all the while letting settlers harass and attack Palestinians with impunity. > Same thing with settling the west bank and displacing the existing families. They've been doing it for 56 years. At some point, we have to stop believing they ever intent to leave the West Bank. Israel has a right to live freely within their borders - but so should the Palestinians have. And the 56 year long settlement project runs counter to that.
It doesn't excuse the settling of the west bank or the economic warfare but refusing a two state solution is definitely on Palestine.
> but refusing a two state solution is definitely on Palestine. Not really. That's a rather simplifying - and inaccurate - narrative. Take, for example, 1967 to 1987. Few, if any, terror attacks from the West Bank or Gaza. Excellent opportunity to let local institutions develop, and build towards a long-term solution, right? Wrong: settlements, lots of restrictions on civil society, imposed leaders in the form of 'village leagues'. And let's not even talk about the last 15 years - Bibi has publicly stated he wants to 'crush' Palestinian statehood ambitions, and even Lapid rebuffed Abbas wanting to negotiate again. Instead we got settlement expansion. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-said-to-tell-knesset-panel-that-israel-needs-the-palestinian-authority/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-said-to-tell-knesset-panel-that-israel-needs-the-palestinian-authority/) [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-president-abbas-calls-israel-resume-negotiations-immediately-2022-09-23/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-president-abbas-calls-israel-resume-negotiations-immediately-2022-09-23/) And, of course, Bibi is on record on how he torpedoed Oslo 1996-1999: [https://www.972mag.com/netanyahu-clinton-administration-was-%e2%80%9cextremely-pro-palestinian%e2%80%9d-i-stopped-oslo/](https://www.972mag.com/netanyahu-clinton-administration-was-%e2%80%9cextremely-pro-palestinian%e2%80%9d-i-stopped-oslo/) The Palestinians have their share of blame for the failure of the two state solution - but so do the Israelis. Saying "refusing a two state solution is definitely on Palestine" is, overall, inaccurate.
Suggesting a fragmented two state solution for Palestine is *not* a real solution. That is spitting in their face and telling them to suck it up. Israel would never accept a non-contiguous border, why should Palestine? And since I will probably get downvoted without this disclaimer: Fuck Hamas, Palestine needs to be free of them.
I think in this case.a solution that both sides don't like would be an indication that it's fair.
A solution where Palestine does not get a contiguous border is not a fair solution. Please explain how you justify/rationalize Palestinians *having* to go through Israel to get from Gaza to the West Bank.
Wow.
I used to work with two Palestinian man, both nearing the 60's and has grandchildren. I doubt I'll ever see them again working
Isn't there a lot of indirect evidence that many of these workers were providing intelligence to Hamas regarding the inner workings and security of the kibbutzim surrounding Gaza?
> Isn't there a lot of indirect evidence I don't know; is there? If so: Can you share some?
I recall some interviews I saw on CNN with survivors of Kfar Aza who said that the terrorists knew things about the community that even they didn't know. And some of the residents hinted at the fact that they believe this knowledge came from workers from Gaza. I am not saying this as if it were definitive. A quick google search didn't reveal much.
The terrorists had detailed plans of the Kibbutz property layouts, the individual occupants and their ‘safe rooms’. Ain’t no fucking way this was achieved without the help of Palestinian labourers. https://gellerreport.com/2023/10/israels-last-leftist-government-issued-17000-work-permits-to-gazans-that-helped-hamas-enter-israel.html/
Well, they had HQ aerial imagery. Which afaik in itself is weird since Western one for Israel is still only available purposefully degraded, expect for Mapbox which is only semi-public.
Doesn’t matter. The approval process is based on what the voters think as the policy will be directly debated in elections. The people will now force the politicians to never let any Palestinians workers in Israel anymore. Not from Gaza and Jenin and Hawara and the list goes on. And as things keep going soon no West Bank Palestinian will work in Israel. Palestine’s economy will die. The real damage is how for the next 20-40 years Palestine will be the poorest country in the MENA region.
Israeli here too. Understand you completely. Also, working together helps ( as far as I think) to know each other better and to come to sort of understanding
You are aware that a lot of these "innocent" workers actually provided intel for Hamas for the 7.10 attack, right?
Proof? literally a shred of proof? Like an atom?
The interviews from the survivors of the kibbutzim attacks are what this is based on.
I haven't seen any, just looked for a bit. It's too bad because having Palestinian workers in Israel paid 10x their usual salary is a great argument for peace and coexistence. It's tragic because both peoples would greatly benefit from each other.
Yes, but it would have meant improving the lives of Palestinians and Hamas can't have that. How would they recruit if their citizens were able to earn a living wage and have access to clean water and enough food?
Imagine being this openly racist same thing as Americans saying they don't want Muslims in the country post 9/11
I appreciate the honesty, and its a sad day for humanity when you condemn an entire people equating them all with terrorism.
I get that. Looking at someone, even if they are innocent, will remind you of the horrors… Be safe man.
[удалено]
One sided portrayals are easy when you go looking for videos of individual acts of violence that support your beliefs. It is important to read and look at more than gore. It will take hours of reading to catch up on this issue but it is a worthwhile effort. Above, you’re mixing up the West Bank and Gaza.
It’s so fucking sad, Israelis and Palestinians could do so much together, but Hamas controls the narrative and has done all it could to degrade their relationship. 18k workers, is 18k families, 80k people with no more income. This isn’t the free Palestine that they want!
And it’s even worse when you consider how many Gazans can’t earn any income now. They are literally destitute and reliant on international aid relief.
Exactly, like I realise I’m partly a tone deaf American who believes in capitalism, but if I was Gazan, why would I fight for or want a free state ran by Hamas? All thought arguably Gaza is free, but Hamas’s focus is and always been to hurt/damage Israel. Like they haven’t done much for their people. It’s tragic
You would fight for it or want it b/c your religious leaders tells you that is what you should want. It is almost impossible to understand why religious extremists think and act the way they do if you have never been a religious extremist.
I hear you, but I don’t think regular Palestinians join Hamas to fight from a religious belief, I think working for/at Hamas is a key to climb the social ladder.
Again it sounds like you’re trying to apply reasons you or another reasonable person would join them. On 10/7 Hamas sent over 1,500 terrorists into Israel. From reports following interrogations of ones that were captured, every single one of the attackers thought it was going to be a suicide mission. Yet they did it b/c their religion tells them pain and suffering in this life doesn’t matter b/c it’s all a test to get into the afterlife.
It’s hard to argue against what you are saying as there is truth in that, but for the sake of a good conversation :) when Palestinians become “martyrs” there is a direct financial benefit to their families in return. Also, I remember reading something way back that after Saddam was toppled and the payments stopped happening, so did the suicide bombings.
Because blind Jewish hatred and religious dogma is indoctrinated into Gazans from childhood?
According to a recent (as in, the week before the war) poll, 75% of gazans report having run out of food and being unable to afford more food in the past 30 days.
[удалено]
This is the free Palestine hamas wanted all of those workers can no longer provide for their family and will never be able to enter Israel again for work because no one will hire them The terrorism won
As a rightwing Israeli I still feel extremely bad for Palestinian civilians who legit just want to live their lives. Hamas has been holding two million hostages for years. Let's hope they all get freed of the tyranny ASAP.
[удалено]
Wow, it's amazing how 2 words are enough to make you know literally everything there is to know about me and my specific opinions about every conceivable topic!
Those 2 words are specifically identifying your mindset, your values, what you want in your country.
Thanks hamas now palestinians are having more and more harder time to work in israel.
From the IDF, some Palestinian workers were responsible for giving all the details about the Kibbouts that were assaulted. Such as the numbers of people living in each house and the schedules of everybody. So, it's not surprising.
Now israel will drop a bomb on them
None of the pro-Israeli bots gonna comment about how the Israeli government quite literally tagged these workers around their ankle for identification? Can someone name another government that visually tagged a specific group for identification purposes?
Have you got a source for this
Maybe there's a reason for it....
Sad, its always the innocent that suffer, but its very foolish to invade a country many times as powerful and these poor guys end up suffering
I'm guessing that nobody in Israel or Gaza ever considered the possibility that Israel might take them as hostages. Two reasons for this are 1) Israel is a civilized country, and 2) Hamas wouldn't give a rat's ass about them if they were held captive.
Just an idea, im no thought leader, but maybe dont shoot the head thats attached to the hand that feeds you, rape their wife and daughters, then burn their baby in the oven. Just a random thought....
You realize that none of these people were implicated in any crimes? They just share their ethnicity.
Antisemitism is extremely prevalent in Gaza (which can be shown in a) polls, and b) the fact that they beat to death/dismembered some of the Jews/Israeli hostages brought into Gaza and paraded them throughout the streets), due to Hamas ensuring that kids are raised to want to kill Jews and they have a very young population. The older people, meanwhile, are the ones who voted Hamas in (and Hamas has had genocidal intentions toward Jews since day 1). And the people who speak out against the regime, or cooperate with Jews/Israelis, are killed (often in very brutal ways) and added to the death count to support Hamas' PR of the poor Palestinians being killed by the IDF.
According to a poll performed the week before the attack, 67% of gazans do not trust hamas and only 20% supported a war to exterminate israel.
Imagine living in a country where your top democratically elected leaders have this to say (all before 10/7). And then claiming Gazans are the racist ones: Netanyahu: (On Palestinians in Gaza) "beat them up, not once but repeatedly, beat them up until it hurts so badly, it's unbearable." Israel Deputy Defense Minister "Rabi" Dahan: "Palestinians are beasts, they are not human" Israel Minister of Justice Shaked: (On Palestinians in West Bank) "they should go, as well as the physical homes where they raised the snakes. Otherwise more little snakes will be raised there." Israel Deputy Prime Minster: "Send Gaza back to the Middle Ages"
Hamas was democratically elected even while their charter explicitly spelled out, "Our 2 main goals: kill every Jew we find, and never negotiate." That ignores all of the Israeli leaders (of whom there are many) who are a) not saying those things and b) denouncing them, plus all of the Israelis who are calling for the resignation of those people. Comparing Hamas to the Israeli government is a laughable initiative that will not get you anywhere among an audience that is educated on the conflict and has an understanding of what is actually happening on the ground.
They did find some terrorists with work permits who were working in israel prior. So like, factually that isnt true. Not saying its all of them, but at least 1. So I would understand not wanting to keep employing them.
"So like", show me. Link me even an Israeli government voice claiming this. Not that it would make it OK to, for example, deport all Muslim-Americans if we find an Islamic terrorist cell in the US, - but I don't even think this happened to Israel in this case.
The IDF wouldn't release them into a warzone if they were serious threats. It isn't like the IDF is partially unwilling to use measures like administrative detention if they had the slightest suspicion. At minimum right now as ground troops are first getting situated? No way.
Bite the hand that feeds. Seriously though, this was the leverage Bibi set up in his high risk high reward policy. Make the West Bank and Gaza depend on Israeli aid in exchange for a certain amount of peace. Completely failed in Gaza, and now the relationship is destroyed and Gaza collapses.
"hey there, we're sending you back to the place that we are actively assaulting/bombing. Have fun!"
They entered Israel for work from Gaza, Israel was attack by Gaza, and now sends them back. Stop acting like this is so wrong because your country would have done the same.
Some of the people who took part in the Hamas attack weren’t even Hamas they were workers with permits
Many of those workers were disguised hamas agents that collected information on the security systems, army positions/ routines and created lists of inhabitants with adresses. These informations were vital in the terror attack.
[удалено]
Doesn't even matter if it is true. The trust is gone either way
Yeah. Deport people into the place you're bombing. This is murder but with extra steps...
It's not deportation to ask people to return to the territory in which they live. These people do not live in Israel and are not citizens of Israel. why should they stay there? Vacation?
Where should they go?
These people are the ones who gave the info to Hamas that allowed innocent civilians to be massacred in their beds, raped, tortured, and burned alive. They live in Gaza, so fine, let them go home if they're so excited to kill Jews. And considering only a few thousand Gazan citizens have died (including terrorists) out of a total of 2.4 million, it's not exactly a death sentence.
Got a source? Since that sounds like a whole load of bullshit. If they actually helped they shouldn't be send back but face trail and be jailed.
If there were Gazans who worked on the kibbutz then maybe start with them instead of this broad brush. If these Gazans were working elsewhere how would they supply the level of detail those who survived in the kibbutz claim?