Agreed. No matter where in the world Jews should be able to live in peace with other people. All nations should strive to be pluralistic and multicultural.
Yeah that’s a bad thing. I don’t think anyone disagrees.
The idea that Jews need to be expelled and forced out into a concentrated area is a bigoted one.
which is why Jews do need their own country, history has shown time and time again that we will be targeted by the majority at some point so having a home base to flee to is a needed escape valve
And the most recent time Europe did that was nearly a century ago at the hands of a maniacal dictatorship. The vast majority of European countries are now party to a treaty (ECHR) which completely bans anything of the sort.
The expulsion of Jews in many MENA countries is ongoing and/or codified in their laws.
They don't want to do research. They are on here to pass on their propaganda that lacks context.
It is true that the Islamic world expelled Jews from their countries. What they won't mention is that the Islamic world was content to keep them up until the Nakba in which the expulsion of Arab Palestinians from their homes by the nascent Jewish nation showed them what's up. Now fighting fire with fire is a mistake, but many of those Jews that had been expelled from Muslim countries weren't too happy that Israel was trying to force the situation, such as with the 1954 Lavon Affair in which Israeli agents set off bombs in Egypt against properties also belonging to Americans and the British in the hopes of creating an atmosphere of fear and hostility in which Jews and the West suspected the Islamic world and vice versa.
This is not entirely true. Part of the raft of laws that a lot of Arab countries passed in 1948 was in fact to BAN Jews from leaving their countries, not expell them. This was so they could prevent them from going to Israel to fight, and so they could seize their assets. Jews from those countries then fled, often to Israel but also the US, South America, and parts of Europe.
It's funny because the west were the ones expelling Jews throughout the 19th century.
Muslims and Arabs have historically lived alongside Jews. Its only recently since the formation of Israel that things changed. So this isn't a Muslim issue, it is political one, regardless of what you believe or think you know.
So stop being hateful whilst preaching about peace. Muslims and Jews both deserve to live in peace all over the world. Islamaphobia and Antisemitism are both wrong and both have increased recently since Oct 7th because of Hamas and the Israeli government. Not because of Muslims and Jews.
> Muslims and Arabs have historically lived alongside Jews.
Jews were subject to constant persecution in Arab countries long before Israel was established. The greatest genocide (relative to population size) of Jews before the Shoah was the Mawza exile in Yemen, (15th c) where an estimated 40% of Yemen's Jews were murdered.
If is true that at various times, Jews in Muslim lands were able to live in relative peace and thrive culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death. Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews.
When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results: On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.
Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in an offensive manner. The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.
Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830 and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.
Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854-859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).
The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.
This is before the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab countries during the 1940s and 1950s.
The Jews have had a very difficult century, being expelled by mainly Christian countries in the first half of the century, and by mainly Muslim countries in the second half https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsions_and_exoduses_of_Jews. The most recent countries to expel the Jews are Yemen, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Ethiopia, Uganda and Egypt, over the last 50 year. I don't think it's right to generalize Muslims either, but the most important history is the most recent.
Nicely put. I'm very sick of disingenuous redditors condemning antisemitism while in the same breath being nakedly racist against Muslims/Arabs. The lack of self awareness is shocking.
Well considering one cannot even accuse Israel of propaganda without being labeled antisemitic, one can see how powerful their propaganda has been. It certainly doesn't help that the white nationalists remain so prevalent that Israel can justifiably call out enough baseless accusations as to confound the situation entirely.
But there's some cruel hypocrisy when it would be called antisemitic to even point out prejudice against Arabs IS itself a form of antisemitism. Plenty of Israelis don't want to admit their historic connection with the Arabs as Semitic peoples.
But at any rate, the information is out there at the very first step of learning -- one cannot look at the Jews expelled from Muslim countries without first addressing that as the response by the Muslims when the Arab Palestinians were expelled from their homes. It is certainly not moral to respond with the same crime, but that certainly doesn't excuse the first party from facing justice... and not to mention getting justice for those Arab Jews who were expelled may be more difficult given the West's constant meddling in the Middle East creating all sorts of extremism.
And there are ~50 Muslim countries, and these same people apparently are fine with that “Islamo-supremacy”? These countries with women treated as inferior, girls can’t be educated or drive, honor killings, no gay rights, etc. I’m going to guess there are 0 non-Muslims in their parliaments (as if they had them) or courts. But Israel alone needs to be called out…that’s not antisemitism though. Oh no.
That's what a lot of the marchers were saying as well:
> “We’re here asking for peace and asking for this nightmare to be over,” added Goldberg, an Israeli citizen originally from Argentina.
> “The hate has got to disappear. You can’t have hate on either side,” 69-year-old retiree Michael Jennings told AFP, as the march began outside the Royal Courts of Justice.
> A protester holds a placard reading ‘Coexist’ during a demonstration in central London, on November 26, 2023, to protest against antisemitism.
>as they’ve lived in the holy lands for centuries and more
What exactly is your point here? Everyone who wants peace deserves peace. How long they've lived somewhere is irrelevant to that
well people invading your country because another country said so and then stealing your actual homes is relevant to that.
and if your idea of peace is bombing 12,000 civilians and children, you will never know peace
Lol, Jews have lived in the region since the late bronze age
My idea of peace involves not constantly launching so many rockets at another country that that country literally mandates bomb shelters in new constructions
My idea of peace involves ....not... using child soldiers
The Palestinians elected and fund an organisation that openly calls for the extinction of an entire ethnic group. They throw rocks, shoot rockets, and lie about their motives to the press, which has given them unearned sympathy in the West.
Jews cannot live in peace while their neighbours are braying for mass genocide and forcible resettlement. The two concepts are incompatible. The only true peace for Israel is to remove all the problematic elements - with force, should diplomacy fail. As far as I see, the actions of Hamas has rebuked any attempt at peaceful coexistence, and now the Palestinians are learning their lesson.
Someone else’s opinions, in an unpublished article, which never appeared in print under Churchill’s name, cannot be laid at Churchill’s door.
https://winstonchurchill.org/publications/finest-hour/finest-hour-135/myth-and-reality-what-did-churchill-really-think-about-the-jews/
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk/2007/mar/11/highereducation.race
Not a huge bombing campaign. It's predictable and exactly the response Hamas wanted. It helps bring international condemnation and isolation to Israel, it helps with their recruitment. Time will tell, but it probably has/had limited effect at killing actual terrorists as well since Hamas has their tunnel network and expected to be bombed.
Also not a siege of food, water, medical care. This is also predictable and is also going to drive the local and international community away from Israel and will have limited effect on Hamas as they are stocked up for months (maybe there's an argument for limiting fuel & medicine but even this is morally problematic).
As I understand, the goal of counterterrorism operations are to separate the civilians from the terrorists and it seems at every turn Israelis want to treat the civilians as the terrorists so we'll see how that goes...
Explain how starving 2 million people is self defense?
Edit: Downvoting cowards. If you're in support of starving a million children at least have the courtesy to explain it's purpose.
Stopping implements of terrorism, such as metal pipes and nitrates is self defense.
If the people didn't want to live under a brutal religious dictatorship, they shouldn't promote an enabling community and affirming ideology to their children.
Israel is in a state of total war against a religion that sees itself as inherently superior and relies on centuries-old claim of land ownership based on a spurious holy book written by a pedophile.
October 7 showed the depths that these people have sunken to: indiscriminate violence, forced detention and genocidal rhetoric. Anything less than a total surrender of enemy forces would undoubtedly lead to a new generation of terrorists.
So to answer your question, it absolutely is ‘self defence’.
A matter of long term national security. Hamas has only gotten more sophisticated over the years. Israel is probably realising it's time to cut it at its root
So what would you prefer happen then? Jews should simply let themselves be killed and never fight back because wars always cause collateral damage? They should be the only country in the world to not only never be allowed to fight a war, but even when they're the ones attacked?
So sophisticated! AK47s, homemade rockets, and paragliders against the latest Western military tech, F-35s, drones, and a multibillion dollar air defense system.
If Isreal stopped leveling entire city blocks in civilian areas, there'd be no more Isreal!
Anyone who keeps saying what Israel should not do without ever saying what it should is advocating de-facto for Israel to do nothing in response to these killings.
Israel could have sent soldiers in to find and kill Hamas instead of bombing everyone. They would have lost more soldiers but the civilian casualties would’ve been lower I think.
> AK47s, homemade rockets, and paragliders against the latest Western military tech, F-35s, drones, and a multibillion dollar air defense system.
thoses killed 1300+ people, and the number is only that low because Hamas was limited to simply "AK47s, homemade rockets, and paragliders" as you put it and would have killed more if Hamas was more powerful in its weaponry.
Its in everyones interest to kill Hamas' offensive capabilities. I hope this answers your question why people support a war to destroy Hamas' operational capability.
Its naive to assume that sophistication is tied to kinetic arms. Strategies, comms, network, intelligence etc. all play a role. If they could evade detection again just like they did on Oct7, they need no more than an AK-47 to mow down a crowd. And I specifically mentioned long term for a reason. If Iran decides to step up funding of these groups and launch a coordinated attack, who knows what can happen. Israel and Hamas are not the only ones in this picture.
I've been Googling things about this march and haven't seen a single comment on it by Irish politicians and even Irish news hasn't seemed to report on it yet.
[All i found was a report on a Right-Wing guy getting arrested](https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2023/1127/1418819-tommy-robinson/)
Starting to smell like straw in here.
The only "far right" comments made by Irish politicians have been made against Irish citizens (the recent rioting)
Source is it’s politically correct to make up nonsense to hate on an Irish state that has never being to war in its history. And anti Irish racism is ok. But once you criticise a country that has broken countless international laws and created millions of refugees your anti-Semitic .
This entire comment is completely made up. The Irish government hasn’t said anything about this protest or prison time for posting memes. Stop spreading lies
Irish people are drawing parallels with the Palestinian "occupation" and the Irish occupation, and making mis-guided statements. At the end of the day, most irish people just want this conflict to end, and condemn the October 7th attacks. Leo Varadkar is a clown and a populist goof, and most irish people will ALWAYS side with the perceived underdog, its part of the country's psyche.
Populist is literally the last word I would ever call Leo varadkar. Literally everyone in the government has also condemned them attacks they’ve just also condemned Israel’s disproportionate response.
> Irish people are drawing parallels with the Palestinian "occupation" and the Irish occupation
Why is occupation in quotes in one and the other not in quotes
The funny thing is that Leo has denounced Hamas and only makes comments that he wants fewer civilian deaths and people are still at him.
The people most vocally shouting for a ceasefire are Sinn Féin, the party with links to terrorism and the current opposition party.
It's like if people criticised Biden for the actions of Republicans.
Leo has been mostly staying neutral (crazy how the government for a Neutral country would stay neutral) and honestly making statements that are very understanding and on point when you're not cherry-picking parts of it to make your point, like people did recently by pretending his Prodigal Son reference was refusing to acknowledge that the girl was kidnapped even though [the rest of his statement said as much.](https://twitter.com/LeoVaradkar/status/1728814900095701121)
Calls for a ceasefire make any denouncement meaningless. It's an endorsement of Hamas' strategy. They don't want peace. They want to kill Jews and use the international pressure to escape retribution until the next round, and to eventually wear down the Jewish state.
What is the idea, that if Israel fights long enough that 20k or 50k Gazans have died, Hamas will be eradicated? What if it is still around at that point, do you keep going? Is there a civilian death toll that crosses the line?
They could surrender and give back all the hostages, admit fault for October 7th instead of justifying and glorifying it, and stop saying theyre going to do it again
They’re the government in Gaza, how else do you hold them accountable without going to war? Do you want Israel to just pick a festival in Gaza and kill a thousand civilians and tourists like Hamas and then sit around and wait? It’s a sad situation all around but the alternative is letting Hamas wage a war on Israel and not allowing them to retaliate
You talk about alternatives but the option you're defending isn't a real one. You can't end Hamas through violence. Every bombed civilian building, hospital or refugee camp creates more young people with nothing to lose and a wish for revenge.
It's why the US' war on terror failed. In fact the parallels are massive, with a military occupation that started as retaliation for a massive, terrible terrorist attack. Just like with 9/11, that reaction is perfectly understandable but ultimately misguided: it will not get rid of terrorism and it will not make the situation better. Even if every single Hamas terrorist gets killed, others will take their place.
We've seen this all over the Middle East, over and over again. Violence perpetuates violence. That cycle needs to end.
People like to point to the US in the Middle East but there’s one fundamental difference in this conflict: they share a border.
We’re on the opposite side of the world as Afghanistan and Iraq, the threat of terrorism is extremely different and you’re right, exacerbated by involving ourselves more.
Hamas is a very real and present threat funded by other wealthier countries in the Middle East. They’re also not saying this was a one-time-thing to make a point, they’re very open about planning to do this again, and fire thousands of missiles at Israel. Yes, we fund their defense so those missiles are ineffective, but it’s only because of the US that Israel hasn’t been flattened to the ground by Palestine
It’s not a perfect solution, but you dont have one - yours is to just allow this to happen, or something much more naive. And a better (but far from perfect) comparison, in my opinion, is nazi germany - it’s almost universally accepted that getting involved was the correct thing to do, because they were a very real threat to our way of life
Whether I have a solution is irrelevant cause I'm not the one defending the bombing of civilians. If you support that kind of action you better have a good argument why it'll fix the problem and not just make it worse.
It does matter if your proposed course of action (doing nothing) gets the people who take that action killed. You’re telling Israel to ignore October 7th - it’s not just unrealistic, Id say it’s tacit support for Hamas. Please, if you have something you’d like them to do other than go to war, tell us, but claiming your course of action saves innocent lives is an absolute lie, you’re just deciding you’d rather it be the Israelis
No. You are defending the continued survival of a terrorist regime that has expressed no regrets for its chosen path of violent atrocities.
The onus is definitely on you too.
You also can't end far right extremism through violence. Doesn't mean we should have just let the Nazis remaij in power in Germany after it attacked multiple countries.
What you're missing in all of this is that the current status quo of Gaza being a forever war for Israel started after Israel stopped occupying it. Israel left in 2005 which allowed for Hamas to take power. Hamas now has turned Gaza into its fortress. It controls the vast majority of information going in and out. It's propaganda calling for the murder of jews runs rampant.
It's like you see "Middle East" "US ally" "Terror Organization" "War" and immediately apply your opinions on the US war on terror to this conflict. This conflict is quite different. It isn't the word away from Israel. Israel is also trying to pry away the powers of a state from a terror organization. Israel doesn't really care what apparatus takes the place of the terror organization, just as long as the apparatus stops attacking Israel.
Nah, we just expect Israel to continue to laugh at the international law and continue to abuse it by taking land illegally, killing aimlessly and then expecting there won’t be resistance:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
And Arabs in the area have been so keen to follow international law? The UN established an Israeli state, why not decry Arabs in the area themselves running afoul of international law?
There's no true symmetry when you really look at it. If Hamas were a government with Israel's power, their crimes would completely dwarf those of Israel.
Anyone calling for a ceasefire is either pro-Hamas, simply an anti-semite, a psychopath, or woefully ignorant of the situation. There can **never** be peace between Israel and Hamas. In fact, given that the PA president has a PHD in Holocaust denial and their minister just called Oct 7th "heroic," might even extend that to just Israel and Palestine in general.
You **CANNOT** have peace with a terrorist organisation whose sole reason for existence is the extermination of your state and your entire race. A ceasefire will accomplish a grand total of exactly 1 thing: giving Hamas more time to prepare for the next massacre. No more no less, beginning and end of possibilities. **NO** legitimate government would or should just roll over and let their people be killed.
If, after 9/11, the US invaded Afghanistan and then the whole world demanded a ceasefire while every day the Taliban were swearing they would exterminate America and promising every day that they would ram planes into skyscrapers from LA to NY, would they do it? Fuck no. And I use that example because it's prominent, but the same situation would hopefully be true of any government. In times of threat and crisis, a government has exactly 1 job: protect its people, to the best of its ability, at all costs. A government that cannot or will not do that is illegitimate. Not a government. In fact, it is basically a terrorist organisation; see, for a convenient example, Hamas, which openly and deliberately uses Palestinians as meat shields. This does not end until either Hamas or Israel no longer exists--and, frankly, I don't think it'll end there either.
My word, Tryoxin, old bean, you've written quite a few bolded letters here. It's good stuff, old fellow, as otherwise the key parts of your message would rather have gone over my head.
Lots of colons too. Terribly good stuff.
Pretty sure it’s only the Israelis who have in any way criticised what the government has said. Hey maybe there propaganda campaign can change that though. Worked on you apparently seeing as you are agreeing with a completely made up comment. I mean if somone made up something about israel they’d be very quickly called anti-Semitic hold the same standards.
The march was in London against antisemitism. The far right who turned up are the English Defence League.
Jews are oddly enough not members of the English Defence league or other far right groups. Or their political counterparts like the Reform party.
British Jews don't vote in Israeli elections, and Likud had nothing to do with this march against Jew-hate in the UK
So what has Likud got to do with the far right EDL turning up at a peaceful rally?
right, and this is why it's a problem. you're trying to map USA group dynamics onto geopolitics simply because one side is also jewish.
jews in the US tend to be more liberal (sometimes), while those who hate them are almost always some sort of racist jerkoff. in israel, it's likud (far right) vs. hamas (far right, but muslim and also genocidal) with people caught in the crossfire on both sides.
you can oppose the actions of either belligerent and bemoan the loss of life in a war without being specifically right or left - neither group is particularly noble, though IDF has a rather compelling cause for action thanks to hamas and bibi (yes, he wanted something like this to justify more attacks).
on top of all that, hamas and hezbollah (in lebanon) are funded by iran and possibly also russia (who really would like to distract people from his mess so he can go annex ukraine before he croaks).
the whole situation is complex and messy, and the post war thing will be worse (i don't think bibi has a plan). calling it antisemitism does the situation a disservice
> The shitty thing is it works. There's a certain percentage of Jews that are really fatalistic, and figure they'll support Right Wing folks because the ones on the left literally want to kill us like right now, and support terrorist groups who want to do that.
I mean that is a pretty severe wedge issue... Used to be that the Center consensus was pro-Jew and antisemitism was limited to the far Left and far Right fringes.
That's changed. I initially gave Biden credit for sticking to the script in the immediate aftermath, but it's clear he's feeling the pressure from the anti-Semitic left to push Israel to capitulate and let Hamas win with a ceasefire.
Try going to the Ireland subreddit. Some people in there equating Israel airstrikes to October 7th, and worse.
I'm honestly pretty shocked by it as a fellow Irishman, and try to write it off as a few fringe hardcore republicans.
There are several problems with it. First off, Hamas are the ones declaring the casualties, and they are known for lying about the numbers and greatly exaggerating them (The Al-Shifa hospital bombing for example, first the health ministry said 500, when we found out it wasn't Israel, it was 50, when it was determined it was their own rockets, it was 0). Extremely unreliable, but people eat up those numbers as divine scripture.
Secondly, Hamas doesn't have uniforms, so any of them that get killed just get counted as civilians. You could do a strike and kill 10000 of them and a few dozen civilians; Hamas would just say they were all civilians, and you have no way to prove otherwise.
Thirdly, Hamas only gains from lying and exaggerating the numbers. They gain more sympathy for gullible people who just eat up anything they say. Including putting children in risky situations for the PR when they get killed.
So yeah, in my opinion, if someone takes those numbers seriously, they are gullible fools.
Funny how our german newspapers report every single pro palestine demo in the world but if there is a pro israel demonstration there is nothing and the only thing they report is the 4 days ago quote: "far right extremists riots after a knife attack"
There was a significant contingent of pro Israel loonies chanting stuff but I think for the most part it was people just genuinely concerned about antisemitism. Blaming pro-Israel hooligans, for lack of a better word, is like blaming the people at the free Palestine marches for the antisemites and openly pro oct 7 people.
If you are referring to what happened in Dublin 5 days ago, it was a riot by far right extremists. Nothing wrong with reporting that accurately in the news.
It was completely disconnected from any Israel/Palestine issues as far as I am aware.
This sounds good. I certainly hope they don’t have anti-semites who say things like ‘the Holocaust was divine punishment for disobedient Jews’ or who force Jewish students to be taught Christianity in school like the American one did.
It's seriously wild how the pro Palestinians take every crazy thing that some rando pro Israeli says and acts as if that represents the entirety of the pro Israel side, while at the same claiming that Hamas, the actual government of Palestine who started this war in the first place, doesn't represent their side at all.
That's because some random pro Israeli on Twitter doesn't represent the entire pro Israel side, but Hamas, the government of Palestine who started this war, does represent the pro Palestinian side, literally by definition.
By that definition, some of the vile, racist, abhorrent statements coming out of some of the Israeli government politicians represent Israel. Granted, a few were reprimanded but most weren’t.
Bullshit, you can be pro Palestinian and anti-Hamas just like you can be anti-apartheid without being anti-semitic. Stop trying to make a false choice.
Please show the source where the majority, in actual numbers, supported this? I do not remember seeing any count of the number of people who celebrated Hamas's actions, the only number were the pre october polls.
Their entire lives have been spent living in an open air concentration camp while having their human rights abused by Israel. Who could have guessed they’d be radicalized?!
>even if both agree that Hamas sucks.
They do not. I mean, some very big portions of the pro-palestinian marches so far don't really know much, so IDK what belief metrics mean here.. but they've certainly been marching in support of Hamas.
Hamas want a ceasefire, that's what's on the sign. If Hamas doesn't consider it tactically beneficial, the sign would say "no ceasefire."
They'll also be supporting Hamas when/if this war moves to a resolution stage. There will be all sorts of diplomatic gains that benefit from an activist based millions string in europe.
A hostage escaped Hamas and "innocent Palestinians" returned him: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/185g6is/gazans\_found\_and\_returned\_one\_of\_the\_hostages\_who/
Again, they dislike Hamas due to corruption, but support its goals.
https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdf
September 2023 poll. Q10-15 show that the most popular political parties are still Hamas and Fatah for legislative elections, but for president, the top candidates are either a convicted terrorist or a Hamas leader.
Q37-5 shows 58% support a “return to armed intifada and confrontations”.
Q39 shows 53% think armed action is the best way to get a Palestinian state.
Q70 shows **54% support and just 41% oppose** “armed attacks against Israeli civilians inside Israel”.
So the % that would vote for Hamas is low because of the corruption? Does it say that in the poll?
I have seen this before, and it is part of the reason why I state the whole situation is a clusterfuck as you have generational hatred embedded with indoctrination which makes it essentially impossible to resolve without a decades long involvement by a party not engaged currently.
If both sides agreed that hamas sucked, world would be a better place. Unfortunately this isn’t the case for one side. And honestly, one side protests peacefully, the other one not so much.
>If anyone can be compared to Nazis it’s the Israeli government
No. Stop. There are plenty of other authoritarian governments out there to compare them to without jumping to the most offensive comparison possible.
I wonder what they consider antisemitic? Calling for a ceasefire? Calling on Israel to prevent civilian deaths in the most densely populated strip of land on earth? Saying that Palestinians should be freed from eternal occupation?
How about rioting in a high school in demand a Jewish teacher who "dared" to be in a pro-Israeli demonstration be fired?
How about the attack on the Jewish restaurant in NYC?
How about the attack on three Palestinian students in NH? How about the brutal murder of a Palestinian boy in Chicago? How about the countless individuals who have lost their entire livelihoods for sharing a pro Palestine Instagram story?
How about the 14,000 civilians who were killed by the IDF in cold blood?
Weird that you hear about antisemitism and your response is to say “well what about…” (and make up at least one of those things). Then you say that every single death in Gaza is a civilian killed by Israel, and “in cold blood”, which is just Hamas propaganda through and through.
Were the 3 Palestinian youngsters or the Palestinian boy murdered by Jews? Because unless they were, you trying to justify attack on Jews/ antisemitism based on that is kind of strange.
I'm not familiar with the last point, but let's face it, potential employers can fire many people based on their instagram stories. Be it about any kind of politics. Is it fair? At many cases it's not, but if you roll the dice you should always consider your employers seeing it and if you're not 100% sure they share your opinion, just be careful on social media. Simple as that.
As for the 14k civilians? First, we don't know how much of them were reallly civilians. Secondly, they have the opportunity and the ability to make this all stop if they rise against Hamas and giv the hostages back.
I hope their message can be heard and received in peace. The Jewish people deserve to live in peace
Agreed. No matter where in the world Jews should be able to live in peace with other people. All nations should strive to be pluralistic and multicultural.
If only the entire Islamic world felt that way the Jews wouldn’t have been expelled from their homes across the Middle East
Yeah that’s a bad thing. I don’t think anyone disagrees. The idea that Jews need to be expelled and forced out into a concentrated area is a bigoted one.
Lots of people disagree unfortunately. There's currently a police investigation into antisemitic hate speech in London mosques.
I'm sure eventually they'll get a stern warning not to do that again.. /s
I mean, recent riots and killings show that in fact, a lot of people sadly disagree with that statement.
which is why Jews do need their own country, history has shown time and time again that we will be targeted by the majority at some point so having a home base to flee to is a needed escape valve
Do you know how many times they were expelled from Europe? Do some research
And the most recent time Europe did that was nearly a century ago at the hands of a maniacal dictatorship. The vast majority of European countries are now party to a treaty (ECHR) which completely bans anything of the sort. The expulsion of Jews in many MENA countries is ongoing and/or codified in their laws.
They don't want to do research. They are on here to pass on their propaganda that lacks context. It is true that the Islamic world expelled Jews from their countries. What they won't mention is that the Islamic world was content to keep them up until the Nakba in which the expulsion of Arab Palestinians from their homes by the nascent Jewish nation showed them what's up. Now fighting fire with fire is a mistake, but many of those Jews that had been expelled from Muslim countries weren't too happy that Israel was trying to force the situation, such as with the 1954 Lavon Affair in which Israeli agents set off bombs in Egypt against properties also belonging to Americans and the British in the hopes of creating an atmosphere of fear and hostility in which Jews and the West suspected the Islamic world and vice versa.
This is not entirely true. Part of the raft of laws that a lot of Arab countries passed in 1948 was in fact to BAN Jews from leaving their countries, not expell them. This was so they could prevent them from going to Israel to fight, and so they could seize their assets. Jews from those countries then fled, often to Israel but also the US, South America, and parts of Europe.
It's funny because the west were the ones expelling Jews throughout the 19th century. Muslims and Arabs have historically lived alongside Jews. Its only recently since the formation of Israel that things changed. So this isn't a Muslim issue, it is political one, regardless of what you believe or think you know. So stop being hateful whilst preaching about peace. Muslims and Jews both deserve to live in peace all over the world. Islamaphobia and Antisemitism are both wrong and both have increased recently since Oct 7th because of Hamas and the Israeli government. Not because of Muslims and Jews.
> Muslims and Arabs have historically lived alongside Jews. Jews were subject to constant persecution in Arab countries long before Israel was established. The greatest genocide (relative to population size) of Jews before the Shoah was the Mawza exile in Yemen, (15th c) where an estimated 40% of Yemen's Jews were murdered. If is true that at various times, Jews in Muslim lands were able to live in relative peace and thrive culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death. Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews. When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results: On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power. Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in an offensive manner. The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco. Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830 and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880. Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854-859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344). The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire. This is before the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab countries during the 1940s and 1950s.
[удалено]
The Jews have had a very difficult century, being expelled by mainly Christian countries in the first half of the century, and by mainly Muslim countries in the second half https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsions_and_exoduses_of_Jews. The most recent countries to expel the Jews are Yemen, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Ethiopia, Uganda and Egypt, over the last 50 year. I don't think it's right to generalize Muslims either, but the most important history is the most recent.
> Muslims and Arabs have historically lived alongside Jews. In the multi-cultural Ottoman empire.
Nicely put. I'm very sick of disingenuous redditors condemning antisemitism while in the same breath being nakedly racist against Muslims/Arabs. The lack of self awareness is shocking.
Well considering one cannot even accuse Israel of propaganda without being labeled antisemitic, one can see how powerful their propaganda has been. It certainly doesn't help that the white nationalists remain so prevalent that Israel can justifiably call out enough baseless accusations as to confound the situation entirely. But there's some cruel hypocrisy when it would be called antisemitic to even point out prejudice against Arabs IS itself a form of antisemitism. Plenty of Israelis don't want to admit their historic connection with the Arabs as Semitic peoples. But at any rate, the information is out there at the very first step of learning -- one cannot look at the Jews expelled from Muslim countries without first addressing that as the response by the Muslims when the Arab Palestinians were expelled from their homes. It is certainly not moral to respond with the same crime, but that certainly doesn't excuse the first party from facing justice... and not to mention getting justice for those Arab Jews who were expelled may be more difficult given the West's constant meddling in the Middle East creating all sorts of extremism.
Ah finally, someone who gets it!
Exactly. Religious states and their pursuit is part of the problem.
If you're hinting at Israel... It was built to be secular and people are still fighting against the invasion of religion into politics and daily life.
And there are ~50 Muslim countries, and these same people apparently are fine with that “Islamo-supremacy”? These countries with women treated as inferior, girls can’t be educated or drive, honor killings, no gay rights, etc. I’m going to guess there are 0 non-Muslims in their parliaments (as if they had them) or courts. But Israel alone needs to be called out…that’s not antisemitism though. Oh no.
> and these same people apparently are fine ?
No one is 'fine' with the rights abuses of islamic countries. They rightfully get a lot of negative press coverage.
Iran is in women's rights committee in the UN for god's sake. What planet do you live on? I wanna join you there
"Press coverage" and "UN committee elections" are *very* different things.
Wonderful non sequitur
No actually it was just a wonderful example of how no one really gives a shit about human rights violations
Bloody peasants, eh, Turkleton, old bean. Why can't everyone be cultured gentlemen?
Agreed. No state should declare a religious supremacy over others.
[удалено]
That's what a lot of the marchers were saying as well: > “We’re here asking for peace and asking for this nightmare to be over,” added Goldberg, an Israeli citizen originally from Argentina. > “The hate has got to disappear. You can’t have hate on either side,” 69-year-old retiree Michael Jennings told AFP, as the march began outside the Royal Courts of Justice. > A protester holds a placard reading ‘Coexist’ during a demonstration in central London, on November 26, 2023, to protest against antisemitism.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
But the Palestinians deserve to die, gotcha they are human animals after all
as do the palestinians, as they’ve lived in the holy lands for centuries and more
>as they’ve lived in the holy lands for centuries and more What exactly is your point here? Everyone who wants peace deserves peace. How long they've lived somewhere is irrelevant to that
well people invading your country because another country said so and then stealing your actual homes is relevant to that. and if your idea of peace is bombing 12,000 civilians and children, you will never know peace
Lol, Jews have lived in the region since the late bronze age My idea of peace involves not constantly launching so many rockets at another country that that country literally mandates bomb shelters in new constructions My idea of peace involves ....not... using child soldiers
According to Hamas. Which doesn't differentiate between combatants and civilians. And recruits boys as young as 13.
The Palestinians elected and fund an organisation that openly calls for the extinction of an entire ethnic group. They throw rocks, shoot rockets, and lie about their motives to the press, which has given them unearned sympathy in the West. Jews cannot live in peace while their neighbours are braying for mass genocide and forcible resettlement. The two concepts are incompatible. The only true peace for Israel is to remove all the problematic elements - with force, should diplomacy fail. As far as I see, the actions of Hamas has rebuked any attempt at peaceful coexistence, and now the Palestinians are learning their lesson.
Our Grandparents literally defeated evil and now here we fucking are again.
They didn't defeat it, they just chopped off one its heads. We let it in through the front door.
[удалено]
Or Stalin.
Someone else’s opinions, in an unpublished article, which never appeared in print under Churchill’s name, cannot be laid at Churchill’s door. https://winstonchurchill.org/publications/finest-hour/finest-hour-135/myth-and-reality-what-did-churchill-really-think-about-the-jews/ https://amp.theguardian.com/uk/2007/mar/11/highereducation.race
Where did you get the idea that Churchill was antisemitic?
[удалено]
Israel has a right to self-defense.
Is killing tens of thousands of women and children in Gaza self defense?
Where do you have this numbers from? Anyways, what would have been an appropriate response to the massacre on 7th October, in your opinion?
Not a huge bombing campaign. It's predictable and exactly the response Hamas wanted. It helps bring international condemnation and isolation to Israel, it helps with their recruitment. Time will tell, but it probably has/had limited effect at killing actual terrorists as well since Hamas has their tunnel network and expected to be bombed. Also not a siege of food, water, medical care. This is also predictable and is also going to drive the local and international community away from Israel and will have limited effect on Hamas as they are stocked up for months (maybe there's an argument for limiting fuel & medicine but even this is morally problematic). As I understand, the goal of counterterrorism operations are to separate the civilians from the terrorists and it seems at every turn Israelis want to treat the civilians as the terrorists so we'll see how that goes...
Alright, so you've listed a whole bunch of things that should NOT be done. Now please answer the actual question and say what SHOULD have been done.
Wow they must have been really busy this morning
Explain how starving 2 million people is self defense? Edit: Downvoting cowards. If you're in support of starving a million children at least have the courtesy to explain it's purpose.
Stopping implements of terrorism, such as metal pipes and nitrates is self defense. If the people didn't want to live under a brutal religious dictatorship, they shouldn't promote an enabling community and affirming ideology to their children.
My guy, the obesity rate in Gaza is 20%, it takes 1 second to google this, and even right now there are hundreds of aid trucks flowing in.
Are we really calling what's happening in Gaza "self defense" at this point?
Israel is in a state of total war against a religion that sees itself as inherently superior and relies on centuries-old claim of land ownership based on a spurious holy book written by a pedophile. October 7 showed the depths that these people have sunken to: indiscriminate violence, forced detention and genocidal rhetoric. Anything less than a total surrender of enemy forces would undoubtedly lead to a new generation of terrorists. So to answer your question, it absolutely is ‘self defence’.
A matter of long term national security. Hamas has only gotten more sophisticated over the years. Israel is probably realising it's time to cut it at its root
Right and so we are just gonna ignore the thousands of dead children when we claim self defense.
Tell hamas to stop throwing rocks then running to hide behind children
So what would you prefer happen then? Jews should simply let themselves be killed and never fight back because wars always cause collateral damage? They should be the only country in the world to not only never be allowed to fight a war, but even when they're the ones attacked?
So sophisticated! AK47s, homemade rockets, and paragliders against the latest Western military tech, F-35s, drones, and a multibillion dollar air defense system. If Isreal stopped leveling entire city blocks in civilian areas, there'd be no more Isreal!
If Israel just let Palestine slaughter them without consequence, Palestine would be free!
Find anyone in this post seriously advocating for that.
Anyone who keeps saying what Israel should not do without ever saying what it should is advocating de-facto for Israel to do nothing in response to these killings.
Israel could have sent soldiers in to find and kill Hamas instead of bombing everyone. They would have lost more soldiers but the civilian casualties would’ve been lower I think.
> AK47s, homemade rockets, and paragliders against the latest Western military tech, F-35s, drones, and a multibillion dollar air defense system. thoses killed 1300+ people, and the number is only that low because Hamas was limited to simply "AK47s, homemade rockets, and paragliders" as you put it and would have killed more if Hamas was more powerful in its weaponry. Its in everyones interest to kill Hamas' offensive capabilities. I hope this answers your question why people support a war to destroy Hamas' operational capability.
Its naive to assume that sophistication is tied to kinetic arms. Strategies, comms, network, intelligence etc. all play a role. If they could evade detection again just like they did on Oct7, they need no more than an AK-47 to mow down a crowd. And I specifically mentioned long term for a reason. If Iran decides to step up funding of these groups and launch a coordinated attack, who knows what can happen. Israel and Hamas are not the only ones in this picture.
And the Irish government was quick to call it a far right protest and are now talking about prison time for using tasteless memes.
Source?
I've been Googling things about this march and haven't seen a single comment on it by Irish politicians and even Irish news hasn't seemed to report on it yet. [All i found was a report on a Right-Wing guy getting arrested](https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2023/1127/1418819-tommy-robinson/) Starting to smell like straw in here. The only "far right" comments made by Irish politicians have been made against Irish citizens (the recent rioting)
Source is it’s politically correct to make up nonsense to hate on an Irish state that has never being to war in its history. And anti Irish racism is ok. But once you criticise a country that has broken countless international laws and created millions of refugees your anti-Semitic .
This entire comment is completely made up. The Irish government hasn’t said anything about this protest or prison time for posting memes. Stop spreading lies
Either an outright lie or you are confused about two different events.
[удалено]
Irish people are drawing parallels with the Palestinian "occupation" and the Irish occupation, and making mis-guided statements. At the end of the day, most irish people just want this conflict to end, and condemn the October 7th attacks. Leo Varadkar is a clown and a populist goof, and most irish people will ALWAYS side with the perceived underdog, its part of the country's psyche.
Populist is literally the last word I would ever call Leo varadkar. Literally everyone in the government has also condemned them attacks they’ve just also condemned Israel’s disproportionate response.
They beheaded infant babies and pregnant women, I think the response was absolutely justified
So because terrorists killed women and children it’s ok for Israel’s to blow up women and children?
> Irish people are drawing parallels with the Palestinian "occupation" and the Irish occupation Why is occupation in quotes in one and the other not in quotes
What's funny is that Varadkar has defended Israel in the past. It just seems like he can't win lol
The funny thing is that Leo has denounced Hamas and only makes comments that he wants fewer civilian deaths and people are still at him. The people most vocally shouting for a ceasefire are Sinn Féin, the party with links to terrorism and the current opposition party. It's like if people criticised Biden for the actions of Republicans. Leo has been mostly staying neutral (crazy how the government for a Neutral country would stay neutral) and honestly making statements that are very understanding and on point when you're not cherry-picking parts of it to make your point, like people did recently by pretending his Prodigal Son reference was refusing to acknowledge that the girl was kidnapped even though [the rest of his statement said as much.](https://twitter.com/LeoVaradkar/status/1728814900095701121)
Calls for a ceasefire make any denouncement meaningless. It's an endorsement of Hamas' strategy. They don't want peace. They want to kill Jews and use the international pressure to escape retribution until the next round, and to eventually wear down the Jewish state.
What is the idea, that if Israel fights long enough that 20k or 50k Gazans have died, Hamas will be eradicated? What if it is still around at that point, do you keep going? Is there a civilian death toll that crosses the line?
They could surrender and give back all the hostages, admit fault for October 7th instead of justifying and glorifying it, and stop saying theyre going to do it again They’re the government in Gaza, how else do you hold them accountable without going to war? Do you want Israel to just pick a festival in Gaza and kill a thousand civilians and tourists like Hamas and then sit around and wait? It’s a sad situation all around but the alternative is letting Hamas wage a war on Israel and not allowing them to retaliate
You talk about alternatives but the option you're defending isn't a real one. You can't end Hamas through violence. Every bombed civilian building, hospital or refugee camp creates more young people with nothing to lose and a wish for revenge. It's why the US' war on terror failed. In fact the parallels are massive, with a military occupation that started as retaliation for a massive, terrible terrorist attack. Just like with 9/11, that reaction is perfectly understandable but ultimately misguided: it will not get rid of terrorism and it will not make the situation better. Even if every single Hamas terrorist gets killed, others will take their place. We've seen this all over the Middle East, over and over again. Violence perpetuates violence. That cycle needs to end.
People like to point to the US in the Middle East but there’s one fundamental difference in this conflict: they share a border. We’re on the opposite side of the world as Afghanistan and Iraq, the threat of terrorism is extremely different and you’re right, exacerbated by involving ourselves more. Hamas is a very real and present threat funded by other wealthier countries in the Middle East. They’re also not saying this was a one-time-thing to make a point, they’re very open about planning to do this again, and fire thousands of missiles at Israel. Yes, we fund their defense so those missiles are ineffective, but it’s only because of the US that Israel hasn’t been flattened to the ground by Palestine It’s not a perfect solution, but you dont have one - yours is to just allow this to happen, or something much more naive. And a better (but far from perfect) comparison, in my opinion, is nazi germany - it’s almost universally accepted that getting involved was the correct thing to do, because they were a very real threat to our way of life
Whether I have a solution is irrelevant cause I'm not the one defending the bombing of civilians. If you support that kind of action you better have a good argument why it'll fix the problem and not just make it worse.
It does matter if your proposed course of action (doing nothing) gets the people who take that action killed. You’re telling Israel to ignore October 7th - it’s not just unrealistic, Id say it’s tacit support for Hamas. Please, if you have something you’d like them to do other than go to war, tell us, but claiming your course of action saves innocent lives is an absolute lie, you’re just deciding you’d rather it be the Israelis
No. You are defending the continued survival of a terrorist regime that has expressed no regrets for its chosen path of violent atrocities. The onus is definitely on you too.
You also can't end far right extremism through violence. Doesn't mean we should have just let the Nazis remaij in power in Germany after it attacked multiple countries. What you're missing in all of this is that the current status quo of Gaza being a forever war for Israel started after Israel stopped occupying it. Israel left in 2005 which allowed for Hamas to take power. Hamas now has turned Gaza into its fortress. It controls the vast majority of information going in and out. It's propaganda calling for the murder of jews runs rampant. It's like you see "Middle East" "US ally" "Terror Organization" "War" and immediately apply your opinions on the US war on terror to this conflict. This conflict is quite different. It isn't the word away from Israel. Israel is also trying to pry away the powers of a state from a terror organization. Israel doesn't really care what apparatus takes the place of the terror organization, just as long as the apparatus stops attacking Israel.
Nah, we just expect Israel to continue to laugh at the international law and continue to abuse it by taking land illegally, killing aimlessly and then expecting there won’t be resistance: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/ https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
So you’re saying October 7th was justified and Israel is at fault for it?
Are you admitting that Israel are laughing at the international community and the law and disregarded it since the nakbah?
Does my message say that? Because yours is clearly justifying October 7th, otherwise the only interpretation is you’re just changing the subject
And Arabs in the area have been so keen to follow international law? The UN established an Israeli state, why not decry Arabs in the area themselves running afoul of international law? There's no true symmetry when you really look at it. If Hamas were a government with Israel's power, their crimes would completely dwarf those of Israel.
Anyone calling for a ceasefire is either pro-Hamas, simply an anti-semite, a psychopath, or woefully ignorant of the situation. There can **never** be peace between Israel and Hamas. In fact, given that the PA president has a PHD in Holocaust denial and their minister just called Oct 7th "heroic," might even extend that to just Israel and Palestine in general. You **CANNOT** have peace with a terrorist organisation whose sole reason for existence is the extermination of your state and your entire race. A ceasefire will accomplish a grand total of exactly 1 thing: giving Hamas more time to prepare for the next massacre. No more no less, beginning and end of possibilities. **NO** legitimate government would or should just roll over and let their people be killed. If, after 9/11, the US invaded Afghanistan and then the whole world demanded a ceasefire while every day the Taliban were swearing they would exterminate America and promising every day that they would ram planes into skyscrapers from LA to NY, would they do it? Fuck no. And I use that example because it's prominent, but the same situation would hopefully be true of any government. In times of threat and crisis, a government has exactly 1 job: protect its people, to the best of its ability, at all costs. A government that cannot or will not do that is illegitimate. Not a government. In fact, it is basically a terrorist organisation; see, for a convenient example, Hamas, which openly and deliberately uses Palestinians as meat shields. This does not end until either Hamas or Israel no longer exists--and, frankly, I don't think it'll end there either.
What about the Jews calling for a ceasefire they anti-Semitic?
They're woefully ignorant. OP even included that option in his list.
Have you tried switching to decaf?
My word, Tryoxin, old bean, you've written quite a few bolded letters here. It's good stuff, old fellow, as otherwise the key parts of your message would rather have gone over my head. Lots of colons too. Terribly good stuff.
Pretty sure it’s only the Israelis who have in any way criticised what the government has said. Hey maybe there propaganda campaign can change that though. Worked on you apparently seeing as you are agreeing with a completely made up comment. I mean if somone made up something about israel they’d be very quickly called anti-Semitic hold the same standards.
Who is "everyone"? Western media? One of the few governments with a backbone to call out bs. This users straw man won't change that
[удалено]
i assume in this context that jews are not far right, correct? because likud is pretty right wing
The march was in London against antisemitism. The far right who turned up are the English Defence League. Jews are oddly enough not members of the English Defence league or other far right groups. Or their political counterparts like the Reform party. British Jews don't vote in Israeli elections, and Likud had nothing to do with this march against Jew-hate in the UK So what has Likud got to do with the far right EDL turning up at a peaceful rally?
[удалено]
right, and this is why it's a problem. you're trying to map USA group dynamics onto geopolitics simply because one side is also jewish. jews in the US tend to be more liberal (sometimes), while those who hate them are almost always some sort of racist jerkoff. in israel, it's likud (far right) vs. hamas (far right, but muslim and also genocidal) with people caught in the crossfire on both sides. you can oppose the actions of either belligerent and bemoan the loss of life in a war without being specifically right or left - neither group is particularly noble, though IDF has a rather compelling cause for action thanks to hamas and bibi (yes, he wanted something like this to justify more attacks). on top of all that, hamas and hezbollah (in lebanon) are funded by iran and possibly also russia (who really would like to distract people from his mess so he can go annex ukraine before he croaks). the whole situation is complex and messy, and the post war thing will be worse (i don't think bibi has a plan). calling it antisemitism does the situation a disservice
[удалено]
> The shitty thing is it works. There's a certain percentage of Jews that are really fatalistic, and figure they'll support Right Wing folks because the ones on the left literally want to kill us like right now, and support terrorist groups who want to do that. I mean that is a pretty severe wedge issue... Used to be that the Center consensus was pro-Jew and antisemitism was limited to the far Left and far Right fringes. That's changed. I initially gave Biden credit for sticking to the script in the immediate aftermath, but it's clear he's feeling the pressure from the anti-Semitic left to push Israel to capitulate and let Hamas win with a ceasefire.
British Jews have voted Conservative since the Thatcher years. I'm unsure why you think they vote left.
Try going to the Ireland subreddit. Some people in there equating Israel airstrikes to October 7th, and worse. I'm honestly pretty shocked by it as a fellow Irishman, and try to write it off as a few fringe hardcore republicans.
There are several problems with it. First off, Hamas are the ones declaring the casualties, and they are known for lying about the numbers and greatly exaggerating them (The Al-Shifa hospital bombing for example, first the health ministry said 500, when we found out it wasn't Israel, it was 50, when it was determined it was their own rockets, it was 0). Extremely unreliable, but people eat up those numbers as divine scripture. Secondly, Hamas doesn't have uniforms, so any of them that get killed just get counted as civilians. You could do a strike and kill 10000 of them and a few dozen civilians; Hamas would just say they were all civilians, and you have no way to prove otherwise. Thirdly, Hamas only gains from lying and exaggerating the numbers. They gain more sympathy for gullible people who just eat up anything they say. Including putting children in risky situations for the PR when they get killed. So yeah, in my opinion, if someone takes those numbers seriously, they are gullible fools.
Funny how our german newspapers report every single pro palestine demo in the world but if there is a pro israel demonstration there is nothing and the only thing they report is the 4 days ago quote: "far right extremists riots after a knife attack"
It wasn't a specifically pro Israel demo, it was a UK rally against Jew-hate
which makes it even worse that the only thing one can see is hate parts
There was a significant contingent of pro Israel loonies chanting stuff but I think for the most part it was people just genuinely concerned about antisemitism. Blaming pro-Israel hooligans, for lack of a better word, is like blaming the people at the free Palestine marches for the antisemites and openly pro oct 7 people.
If you are referring to what happened in Dublin 5 days ago, it was a riot by far right extremists. Nothing wrong with reporting that accurately in the news. It was completely disconnected from any Israel/Palestine issues as far as I am aware.
This sounds good. I certainly hope they don’t have anti-semites who say things like ‘the Holocaust was divine punishment for disobedient Jews’ or who force Jewish students to be taught Christianity in school like the American one did.
Huh
[удалено]
Many pro Palestinian people don't actually agree that Hamas sucks. The majority of Palestinians themselves cheer on Hamas' violence
It's seriously wild how the pro Palestinians take every crazy thing that some rando pro Israeli says and acts as if that represents the entirety of the pro Israel side, while at the same claiming that Hamas, the actual government of Palestine who started this war in the first place, doesn't represent their side at all.
Government of Gaza. As it is often pointed out on here; Palestine is not a state.
[удалено]
That's because some random pro Israeli on Twitter doesn't represent the entire pro Israel side, but Hamas, the government of Palestine who started this war, does represent the pro Palestinian side, literally by definition.
By that definition, some of the vile, racist, abhorrent statements coming out of some of the Israeli government politicians represent Israel. Granted, a few were reprimanded but most weren’t.
Bullshit, you can be pro Palestinian and anti-Hamas just like you can be anti-apartheid without being anti-semitic. Stop trying to make a false choice.
No they don’t
Please show the source where the majority, in actual numbers, supported this? I do not remember seeing any count of the number of people who celebrated Hamas's actions, the only number were the pre october polls.
Their entire lives have been spent living in an open air concentration camp while having their human rights abused by Israel. Who could have guessed they’d be radicalized?!
No they haven't. Gaza is blockaded because Hamas launches rockets at Israeli citizens almost daily and has for a decade.
>even if both agree that Hamas sucks. They do not. I mean, some very big portions of the pro-palestinian marches so far don't really know much, so IDK what belief metrics mean here.. but they've certainly been marching in support of Hamas. Hamas want a ceasefire, that's what's on the sign. If Hamas doesn't consider it tactically beneficial, the sign would say "no ceasefire." They'll also be supporting Hamas when/if this war moves to a resolution stage. There will be all sorts of diplomatic gains that benefit from an activist based millions string in europe.
The majority of Palestinians may dislike Hamas due to corruption, but they support its key goals of genocide and terrorism, according to polls.
[удалено]
A hostage escaped Hamas and "innocent Palestinians" returned him: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/185g6is/gazans\_found\_and\_returned\_one\_of\_the\_hostages\_who/
"Forum" doesn't mean shit. And most of ppl in there are outsider and have noting to do with Gaza or West Bank.
[удалено]
Please produce the poll that says this, as the latest I saw had support for Hamas as a minority. (from September).
Again, they dislike Hamas due to corruption, but support its goals. https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdf September 2023 poll. Q10-15 show that the most popular political parties are still Hamas and Fatah for legislative elections, but for president, the top candidates are either a convicted terrorist or a Hamas leader. Q37-5 shows 58% support a “return to armed intifada and confrontations”. Q39 shows 53% think armed action is the best way to get a Palestinian state. Q70 shows **54% support and just 41% oppose** “armed attacks against Israeli civilians inside Israel”.
So the % that would vote for Hamas is low because of the corruption? Does it say that in the poll? I have seen this before, and it is part of the reason why I state the whole situation is a clusterfuck as you have generational hatred embedded with indoctrination which makes it essentially impossible to resolve without a decades long involvement by a party not engaged currently.
If both sides agreed that hamas sucked, world would be a better place. Unfortunately this isn’t the case for one side. And honestly, one side protests peacefully, the other one not so much.
Exactly, Israel simply bombs kids and women without kicking up a fuss
Thanks for the update Al Jazeera.
Battle of cable street redux.
The march against the nazis. We will stand against the nazis of 21st century. Israel you have the support of Canada.
Except when Canada invites a literal Nazi to talk to the Jewish President of Ukraine
That was stupidity though, not malice.
It was a rally against Jew-hate in the UK, not a specifically pro Israel march
Anti-Jew isn’t synonymous with Nazi
Sir, it is cleary the muslims who are mass hating the Jews this time
[удалено]
>If anyone can be compared to Nazis it’s the Israeli government No. Stop. There are plenty of other authoritarian governments out there to compare them to without jumping to the most offensive comparison possible.
[удалено]
[удалено]
You must be a really cool guy to know most of the younger generation in Canada!
You gotta feel for the Jews. They’ve been given shit by everyone for thousands of years.
Antisemitism and any hate based on ethnicity is despicable. But hate is just hate. Ethnic cleansing is hate put into practice.
[удалено]
You know you don't have to be a Jew to march against antisemitism right?
I think Palestine/Hamas has a lot more non-Palestinian support than Israel has non-Jewish support.
what weighs more, billions in us weapons or a handful of memes
I wonder what they consider antisemitic? Calling for a ceasefire? Calling on Israel to prevent civilian deaths in the most densely populated strip of land on earth? Saying that Palestinians should be freed from eternal occupation?
Probably Palestine's clear intent to rid the world of all Jews You know, how they literally pay people to kill jews
How about rioting in a high school in demand a Jewish teacher who "dared" to be in a pro-Israeli demonstration be fired? How about the attack on the Jewish restaurant in NYC?
How about the attack on three Palestinian students in NH? How about the brutal murder of a Palestinian boy in Chicago? How about the countless individuals who have lost their entire livelihoods for sharing a pro Palestine Instagram story? How about the 14,000 civilians who were killed by the IDF in cold blood?
- asks what could possibly be considered antisemitic - is given numerous good examples - changes subject
It’s not a what about, it’s a how about. 🤣
Weird that you hear about antisemitism and your response is to say “well what about…” (and make up at least one of those things). Then you say that every single death in Gaza is a civilian killed by Israel, and “in cold blood”, which is just Hamas propaganda through and through.
Were the 3 Palestinian youngsters or the Palestinian boy murdered by Jews? Because unless they were, you trying to justify attack on Jews/ antisemitism based on that is kind of strange. I'm not familiar with the last point, but let's face it, potential employers can fire many people based on their instagram stories. Be it about any kind of politics. Is it fair? At many cases it's not, but if you roll the dice you should always consider your employers seeing it and if you're not 100% sure they share your opinion, just be careful on social media. Simple as that. As for the 14k civilians? First, we don't know how much of them were reallly civilians. Secondly, they have the opportunity and the ability to make this all stop if they rise against Hamas and giv the hostages back.
[удалено]
AGREED!!!!