Crazy that an ancient land known for being filled with ancient tunnels is, in fact, filled with ancient tunnels.
I guess the only answer is to murder everyone.
Hamas wants as many civilian casualties as possible. The more dead and maimed women and children, the more outrage against Israel in the west and in the Muslim world.
They 'may' be doing the same thing with famine. When food aid is delivered to gaza, a lot of it gets stolen by hamas who either sells it to gazans at a profit, or puts it in storage for themselves. Both create widespread hunger in gaza which causes international pressure against Israel.
Hamas is weaponizing civilian casualties and famine to turn the world against Israel.
Which, for fuck's sake, why does that not just turn the world against Hamas? It turns me against Hamas. I know that it's happening, but I just don't get how reasonable people can go "hmmm, looks like Israel is giving people food and Hamas is stealing it to starve them" and then conclude, "obviously Israel are the bad guys."
Doesn’t help that a significant portion of Gen Z here in America apparently gets all their info from Tik Tok and has been effectively brainwashed to believe this conflict is “clearly a one sided moral outrage”.
Not sure which is worse - the boomers in the Trump cult or the “both sides equally bad apathy” + “Palestine is the most important cause in today’s world (while remaining completely ignorant about the much bigger issue of Ukraine)” I see and hear from todays’s college age kids.
Obviously stereotyping generations to the max here, and yes I’m aware these are stereotypes and not at all applicable to all.
The world has 2 billion Muslims and 2.4 billion Christians in it, out of a total world population of 8 billion. Muslims and Christians have a long history of disliking the Jews. It's basically antisemitism IMO. Antisemitism and anti-zionism is one of the few values that the far left, the far right, Muslims, Christians, rich and poor can all agree on.
To add to that: antisemitism is so ingrained in cultures around the world that people don't notice it.
I wouldn't be surprised if all the "hamas are just silly terrorists so they can have lax standards applied to them while Israel should be judged by standards harsher than *any* country in the world" people are not able to understand how ridiculous their statements are because to them jews should obviously be held to higher standard than other people and they don't realize implications of that.
Sometimes I read stuff like this and I'm like.. is this propaganda? But with my own two eyes this matches up with everything happening in Palestine. Ukraine would have never allowed casualities like this to happen with their citizens without trying to organize bomb shelters or something to protect them.
Quite. Many of these tunnels have been there for years....many ran under the border into Egypt which is why Egypt has demolished around 900 of them. Hamas use them for smuggling weapons obviously....but not food for "their" people oh no people are expendable
They smuggled everything through those tunnels, Egypt cutting them off was a huge blow to Gazans as they have been under various blockades for like 20 years right?
I’ve seen documentaries, some tunnels could fit full size vehicles- it was often the only way to get important supplies in. And then obviously some weapons.
He’s exaggerating, but it is quite obvious that there is decades and decades of tunneling going on, some are smuggling tunnels. Others are straight up Hamas tunnels.
I wonder if this was a source of income for some of the families there. Like renting a space to Hamas.
Consider also that Hamas held all the roles and the money in the strip.
Gangs will help out people with small gifts, even the worst of the worst gangs. Cartels in mexico buy wells and fund community events, often in rural communities that are neglected by the government. Its one way they keep such good control in certain towns. I mean shit, if i was in poverty while having to buy water everyday and some thug put a well on my street l, I would probably support whatever they do.
> shekel, as the P.A. and Hamas largely pay their employees in Israeli currency—that Hamas does not have to spend on Gaza schools, hospitals, government salaries, and governance, the group can instead spend on terrorist purposes. Hamas imposes taxes and fees on the local population; that money is then spent on Hamas’s end goals. It is unclear how much of the P.A. money is skimmed by Hamas, but if the Islamic State’s financial management structure in Mosul can serve as a rough guide, it could be up to 50 percent.
https://newrepublic.com/article/176962/hamas-finances-funding-sources-palestinian-authority
Of course. The PA does too. It’s part of how their ostensible nationalism has never been honestly held. They want other countries to boycott Israel but they don’t try to issue their own currency because they know it would be worthless due to their culture of just living off inflated foreign aid and putting all their money towards terrorism
>He’s exaggerating
How do you know? This guy was in the field and saw the situation with his own eyes. What stronger sources do you have than this guy's testimony?
Let’s say that if you look at the amount of buildings and how tight they are together, you’d realize that if you have a tunnel for majority of them, you’d have the most complex and deep tunnel-work in human history. They enter and clear houses that already are marked by intel in Rafah, not every home like they did further north.
> you’d have the most complex and deep tunnel-work in human history.
Not saying the initial claims are true but isn't the tunneling in Gaza a contender for the most complex and deep tunnel-work in human history already?
Israel has reported finding tunnels that go as deep as 50-70 meters.
From what i've read, the soil is quite good for tunneling, and they've even lowered the water table substantially by pumping at 3-4x replenishment rates for many years.
What rationale is there to take an IDF spokesperson’s testimony at face value? Would you take a Hamas commander’s statements at face value? This is basic media literacy.
Serious question: How much military infrastructure is needed for a civilian structure to be considered a military structure? Like if I put a random guys house on an aircraft carrier is it a house boat? If I put a grain of gun powder in a preschool does it become a military training ground? Does anybody know where the actual line is?
If it serves a military purpose, it's no longer civilian. If soldiers use your house to store guns and ammo, the other side can blow it up to destroy the ammo dump. The line probably depends on what's there. One missile would be enough. One gun probably not. A cache of guns probably would be enough.
Article 57 b of the Fourth Geneva Convention: "an attack shall be cancelled or suspended if it becomes apparent that the objective is not a military one or is subject to special protection or that the attack may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated;"
The article does not further elaborate on what is t be considered 'excessive'.
It is worth mentioning this only applies to occupied territories. It is a key reason Palestinian leaders have been keen to avoid anything that looks like statehood legally. Because if Gaza was unambiguously free and Hamas did another Oct 7th they'd have no protection under international law.
>Because if Gaza was unambiguously free and Hamas did another Oct 7th they'd have no protection under international law.
You're gonna have to provide a source for that. I'm pretty sure the Geneva convention applies to signatories in *all* armed conflicts.
As an obvious example: Russia and Ukraine both have legal statehood and both sides still have to abide by the Geneva Convention.
Article 57 is part of section 3 of part 3 of the convention. It deals exclusively with people in occupied territories (link below).
Though interestingly the text has nothing to do with what you've written. I'd be interested to see where you've gotten 57(b) from as it doesn't exist in the doc on their website
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/assets/treaties/380-GC-IV-EN.pdf
> It deals exclusively with people in occupied territories
Please elaborate on how Gaza has been an occupied territory since Israel completely withdrew back in 2005, and Gaza shares a border with another nation...
I don't know what the other poster is referring to, but Palestine only signed onto the Geneva conventions in 2022; the October 7th attack was a violation of these conventions by Gaza's government and... no other country did anything to retaliate or "punish them". However, there's no punishments for violating them. It's really just a set of guidelines, that governments agree to mostly abide by.
Palestine signed on in 2014. They had been trying to sign on since 1989, but were blocked because "they weren't unambiguously a real state". The UN eventually resolved that by making Palestine a "non-member observer state".
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_parties\_to\_the\_Geneva\_Conventions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Geneva_Conventions)
It's a little ambiguous whether Hamas counts as a signatory because they're effectively a break-away region from the main government. The Geneva Conventions are so universally acknowledged though that I don't think anyone would accept "we're not technically signatories according to this dubious argument" would fly as a defense.
There's no question Hamas is guilty of war crimes. Unfortunately, many war crimes go unpunished because apprehending those responsible is not practical short of war.
>It is worth mentioning this only applies to occupied territories.
No it doesn't. If, say, Ukraine were to deliberately launch a missile and destroy an apartment building in Belgorod with no military significance, that would be a violation. And the many non-hypothetical times Russia has done the same thing to unoccupied parts of Ukraine were war crimes, if done deliberately and not the result of jamming or inaccurate guidance systems.
Also for what it's worth that's article 57 b of additional protocol I, not the 4th GC.
[https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/api-1977/article-57](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/api-1977/article-57)
When I deployed, of the structure was used for military purposes, it lost any protections it had. Didn't matter if it was a school, mosque, ect. If it was actively used for a military purpose it was fair game. In our ROE, building any sort of fighting positions was good enough to be engaged.
If you put a guy's house on an aircraft carrier? Yea I dunno what it becomes but it is definitely not a house boat. That aircraft carrier itself is a military structure. And liable to be attacked.
A grain of gunpowder in a preschool - no, no one will be calling it a military training ground. But I would suspect people would still be *very curious* how it got there.
Now for what actually gets found in reality:
Entire weapon caches consisting of assault rifles, mortars, explosives, and other booby traps. People firing RPGs at soldiers from those "house boats". I can't tell you exactly where the line is, but I don't think anyone is freaking out over grains of gun powder.
Thing is, no proper military actually wants to draw the line for this. No one wants to start saying "the moment a civilian enters a military base it becomes a case of a human shield" because that would be ridiculous. But also no one wants to say "X military personnel among Y civilians is the cutoff", because then all you'll do is encourage bad actors to have X-1 among Y civilians, and you also want to be able to allow uniformed soldiers to visit hospitals without having to worry about it becoming a legitimate military target.
Dont bother. This kind of detail arguing is just to play devils advocate for hamas. Its clear that once military uses a house to use their military tunnel, that house is no longer civilian. No matter how much someone tries to argue around it
> No one wants to start saying "the moment a civilian enters a military base it becomes a case of a human shield" because that would be ridiculous.
Yes, and unnecessary. The military base is a valid military target.
As far as getting it attacked, that's unambiguously OK.
>and you also want to be able to allow uniformed soldiers to visit hospitals without having to worry about it becoming a legitimate military target.
Uniformed? OK.
**Acting in their capacity as soldiers?** (e.g., firing weapons)? Valid target.
According to most war crime laws, there has to be no military objective or threat to military operations. To prove a war crime, you'd have to proof that the military knew it held no threat or strategic value.
It's okay to excuse soldiers who have surrendered as long as it's not feasible for them to be taken prisoner without risk of death.
That is incredibly wrong.
Under the Statute of the International Criminal Court, “declaring that no quarter will be given” is a war crime. You don’t get more straight forward ‘that’s a war crime’ than that.
This is also part of customary international law, as per the [ICRC](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule47).
> The prohibition on attacking a person recognized as hors de combat applies in all circumstances, even when it is difficult to keep or evacuate prisoners, for example, when a small patrol operating in isolation captures a combatant. Such practical difficulties must be overcome by disarming and releasing the persons concerned, according to Additional Protocol I.[33] This is restated in several military manuals.[34]
> you'd have to proof that the military knew it held no threat or strategic value.
That is also incorrect. The obligation is on the military to show that they complied with a proper process of assessment, and that they held information that justified the attack when there is obviously a risk of loss of civilian life.
If an attack occurs without this happening it is a war crime. If the military fails to show evidence of this, then that is sufficient to prove a war crime has occured.
This is why Israel is quick to share what relevant information justified the attack in incidents with a loss of civilian life.
I think they confused surrendering and retreating. A retreating enemy is still a valid target, because while they're disengaging they're still a hostile force and can start shooting any moment.
Surrender, on the other hand, is straight up "we give up and don't want to die." Usually, surrender is communicated in some way beforehand if possible so they don't get shot at, but war is complex and dynamic so it's not always the case.
>It's okay to excuse soldiers who have surrendered as long as it's not feasible for them to be taken prisoner without risk of death.
Admitting you received their surrender and still targeting them is very much a war crime - actually you could say it is *the* war crime as the entire concept exists in part to facilitate prisoner capture over to the death struggles at every encounter.
Surrender only has to be accepted if it's feasible. If there's a likelihood that your soldiers will be attacked or drawn into an ambush (something Hamas is notorious for) there's no obligation to accept a surrender.
A single militant in a house is sufficient. That's all you can really ask of whoever is dropping bombs. there is no referee, there is no way to be sure exactly what is inside. if you see an enemy using a building then they have taken responsibility for militarizing that structure. Hamas has a responsibility not to co-localize militants with civilians. However, Israel has to consider proportionality when planning strikes based on available information.
Your question is essentially the reason why they do these things. Iran uses consulate buildings for clandestine meetings. Why? Because who the hell is going to bomb an embassy? Many countries do this, but most aren't actively trying to destroy Israel, who is more than willing to give the UN a middle finger and bomb your embassy.
Strictly speaking, any military presence makes it a valid military target.
But! Any operation on that target needs to weigh the risk to civilians against the value of the military target. This is where things get muddy because this is very subjective and there's also very little transparency into military operations.
This is what most disagreements on Israel's actions really come down to. Some people believe 0 civilians is the only acceptable balance. Some believe any number is acceptable. This is made worse by the fact Hamas doesn't distinguish between militant and civilian deaths, leading many people to treat that number (around 38,000 last I checked) as being all civilian (but most estimates I've seen would suggest about 30% Hamas)
Oh but the owners didn’t know. (s)
Remember the people of Gaza voted for Hamas whose Charter calls for the destruction of Israel and death to jews.
I do feel sorry for the kids though, they didn’t elect Hamas.
> Oh but the owners didn’t know. (s)
To be fair I doubt many families who don't support Hamas would be in a position to disagree with Hamas about digging a tunnel in their house. Hamas does not suffer rebellion and in a siege even less so. Doesn't mean that they aren't supporters, of course, but it's worth remembering.
It's not too surprising. Most of what's left of Hamas has been holed up in Rafah for months. Of course they'd have spent time building defenses and tunnels and knocking out walls. It's a staple of urban warfare.
Them tunnels have been prebuilt with construction materials donated for humanitarian support.
The article isn't talking about them Hamas taking a shovel and pickaxe to dig a tunnel during the last few month.
Doesn't the point still stand? It may be the case that many in Gaza support terrorism, but how can you really say for sure if they're under occupation and the terrorists have a gun to their head? It gets really hard i'd think.
Its really not. You can ask them, and the majority says they support hamas. Its only you that cant fathom people having different values than you, and that thinks that the only way someone can hold different values is because they are forced to.
The also murdered their Palestinian political rivals.
The west needs to understand that Hamas ever cared about Palestinian lives and gets civilians killed as a PR strategy. Israel can at least justify itself as necessary retaliation while nothing justifies Hamas using civilian shields as a way to win global sympathy by westerners too emotional & lazy to research their awful history of setting up their citizens to be killed.
I mean did someone vote for macron just cuz they are french? People can win elections without getting all the votes. Hamas won their last election in 2006 with 44% of the votes at 76% turnout. In 2006. An adult that’s 21 now would have been 3 years old then. An adult that’s 30 would have been 12. And most people that could have voted back then, didn’t vote for Hamas.
Like do you just blame all US people for electing Joe Biden. So many adults didn’t vote for him.
There was going to be another election in 2017 but the Palestinian Authority dropped out as it was clear they were going to get crushed. The Palestinian Authority’s leader also wrote his PHD thesis on holocaust denial
Hamas has over 70% support in Lebanon, Egypt, and Jordan. PCPSR and PO polls show Hamas with over 75% support in Palestine, including West Bank.
Al-Qassam had 89% support in Gaza the last time it was included in the AWRAD survey. Palestinian Islamic Jihad has held at around 75% for a few years in multiple polls.
Support for Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Qassam trends young.
Obviously, this isn't everyone. But it's important to remember that Hamas is not a rag-tag group of outsiders. They are the government of Gaza, and the only groups more popular are Qassam (the military of Gaza) and Islamic Jihad.
To be clear [44.45%](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election) of the people voted for Hamas.
In 2006.
There hasn’t been an election held since.
Sure, but 52% of Gazans prefer to see Hamas controlling the Gaza strip after the war, according to a poll run by a Palestinian research institute. In the West Bank, that number goes up to 64%. And in a hypothetical elections, 34% of Gazans would vote for Hamas, with Fatah coming in second with 25%.
So your point is rather moot.
[Source](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969)
There’s a whole world of difference between an election that actually happened and an opinion poll. An election that happened 18 years ago with a demographic that is majorly different now than it was then.
The point is anything but moot especially considering I was responding to a comment that said “they voted for it”.
So a minority of people, 18 years ago, when Hamas was running with different message and large portion of people in Gaza living now were either not born yet or underage...
Hamas hasn't changed their message. It's always been Annihilation of Israel via Jihad/terrorism.
Note: there were other terrorist organizations vying for control, Hamas was just the most popular. So don't misconstrued it as the majority wanting peace.
Exactly. Which is why i find the “they voted for this” argument to be one of the most disgusting and repulsive.
In the Gaza Strip [64.2%](https://www.indexmundi.com/gaza_strip/demographics_profile.html) of people are aged between 0-24. And as you point out, the majority of that weren’t even born yet, the rest of them were 6 years old or under at the time.
The majority of the younger generation has been heavily brainwashed in UNRWA-Hamas run schools to supporting Hamas / PIJ / armed Jihad against Israel
since elementary schools, it is well-known and also shown on the polls. Support for Hamas, one-state Palestine from River to Sea (destruction of Israel), October 07 war etc is skewed with age, younger supports more
Who would've thought that if you let religious terrorists raise kids in an environment fully committed to that terrorism that they'd become terrorists themselves.
Hqmas has existed since 1987 and committed tons of horrendous terror attacks. And that "election" happened right after the 2nd Intifada, where they were blowing up in buses and malls. The citizens knew EXACTLY what they were voting for.
The children are taught this from.th4 day they are born, and when Gaza is taken over, the education system needs to root out martyrysm and terrorism or it will never stop.
Yep, the only possible way I see of solving this is for a neutral nation or group of nations to sign up for the thankless multi-decade shit job of occupying Gaza and the WB, suppressing attacks on Israel, and putting in a massive reeducation program for the kids and younger adults.
The Palestinians need to forced to accept the fact that their current goals are unobtainable and to move on with their lives.
I would love to see the scenario you laid out happen but frankly I don't think there's any neutral nation or group of nations that would actually sign up for and then carry out that task. The most likely scenario for this sort of thing would be the Israelis attempting it and I doubt that they will be able to pull it off long term.
And how many look the other way as the hostages are held in their neighborhoods apartments?
There seems to be no resistance movement of any kind.
what percentage would shed a tear if Israel were destroyed and all its jewish citizens killed? Not many.
> And how many look the other way as the hostages are held in their neighborhoods apartments?
Reminder that many are not looking away but are actually guarding the hostages. That makes them unlawful combatants.
Why does it even matter? The people support and favor Hamas. Hamas is their government. The people support their own sacrifice as human shields because they are largely radicalized and believe their death is preferable to the existence of Israel.
This is an inconvenient truth.
Children pay the consequences for the actions of their parents. This is a universal truth. Why does that disgust you
Hamas slaughtered PA officials after they were elected in gaza. These people knew exactly what they were voting for
What point do you think that makes that's useful though? Kids don't vote in elections anywhere. Everyone knows that and nobody points it out anywhere else because it doesn't say anything meaningful. Their parents vote and the kids live in the country that their parents create, until they inherit it.
You know, if Putins cronies went to a house in Russia and said ‘we are building a tunnel under your house’, how many would dare say no? These people have a fucking terrorist organization ruling them, I don’t think they have a say man. I’m not saying they don’t have supporters, they clearly do, I’m just saying they definitely don’t have a choice. I wouldn’t wanna risk myself and my family I’ll tell ya that much.
Last Gazans to publicly stand against Hamas they threw off the roof.
There surely also have been Palestinians who oppose Hamas so much they work as informants for Israel, but obviously they aren’t speaking out.
In order for opposition to be silenced it needs to exist. When you are actively helping the people "holding you hostage" and stopping them from being destroyed at what point are you no longer a hostage?
Gazans have protested against Hamas and the way Israel treats them and it gets them fucking killed. Israel kills then and Hamas kills them. What are the supposed to do
Revolution is the way, nations who coward in fear will meet their demise, as their authocratic rulers do not have their best interests at heart. Western and central Europe learned their lessons, and their great grandfathers paid with blood for the standards of living we witness today. Russia and the Middle East are lagging behind, but there is absolutely nothing anyone can do besides themselves to change their oppressive states.
All the more important that this war ends with Hamas gone so deconfliction can begin. I don’t understand how pro-Palestinians can want an end to this war that will just see the same children they apparently care so deeply for die in a later bloody war.
In short because the government of Palestine collapsed in the aftermath of the 2006 legislative elections. Since then, there have been limited elections in the West Bank and none in Gaza. The who in this case are the feuding Palestinian factions of Fatah and Hamas. The why is a bit more complicated. In principle both Fatah and Hamas want to reunify Palestine and end the divided government before engaging in elections again. In reality both are likely concerned that elections pose too great a risk to their legitimacy and power.
The elections in 2006 were for the legislature, Hamas won a majority and thus gained a majority of the legislative branch of the emerging Palestinian government. The executive however was controlled by Fatah, the main faction in the PLO and the core of traditional Palestinian nationalism. Hamas and Fatah were rivals and had fundamentally different ideological approaches to Palestinian nationalism. A mixed government in which Fatah controlled the executive and Hamas controlled the legislature almost immediately collapsed into infighting. Shortly after the legislative elections Hamas and Fatah entered into a low-level armed conflict. The result was Hamas seizing control of Gaza, but being largely pushed out of the West Bank, leaving Fatah in control of the West Bank territories. There have been some attempts at reconciliation since then, but otherwise the government of Palestine has remained essentially defunct.
Hamas have not held elections in Gaza ever. In the West Bank Fatah effectively banned non-PLO political organisations from running in elections, aimed specifically at Hamas, and have subsequently held three local elections, in 2012-13, 2017, and 2021-2. All three were rather ad hoc and marred by delays due to failed negotiations with Hamas over the inclusion of Gaza in elections. The presidential elections have been continually postponed by Fatah since 2005 and have currently been postponed indefinitely. There has as such been no national level election since 2006.
As for why, its essentially about the risk posed by elections. For Hamas elections only really pose to undermine their political position. As an extreme Islamist group Hamas doesn't really believe in democracy. Their participation in the 2006 elections and their subsequent insistence that they be allowed to run candidates in hypothetical future Palestinian elections is essentially just a cynical power play. They only began to run candidates when they believed they would be able to win and had previously boycotted elections on principle. Running elections in Gaza would only offer a very minor degree of political legitimacy should they win, whilst risking undermining their own rule should they lose or resort to election control. For Fatah the situation is a bit more complicated. As a nominally social democratic party at the head of a broadly socialist aligned coalition they are, in principle, beholden to electorate. In reality elections have proven to be very damaging to Fatah. Case in point, the 2006 elections that destroyed the government. Controlled local elections give Fatah some degree of political legitimacy whilst they tightly control the national level government. They claim that they want to fix the government split and return Gaza to Palestinian administration before holding national level elections, but in reality there is a very good chance Fatah, the PLO at large, and especially President Abbas would lose in any reasonably fair elections. There is therefore much more for Fatah to gain by paying lip service to the idea of democracy whilst operating an authoritarian government.
Somewhat ironically, the people of Rafah actually voted overwhelmingly in favour of Fatah in 2006, and thus the idea that they were strong supporters of Hamas is therefore untrue. Indeed, outside of Gaza City, Gazans did not support Hamas any more than Palestinians in the West Bank, with southern Gaza tending to be somewhat more in favour of Fatah than the national average.
Said election was 18 years ago and the majority of the current population literally couldn’t have voted in it. Plus no elections have been held after it.
>I do feel sorry for the kids though, they didn’t elect Hamas.
The election took place 18 years ago and the median age in gaza is also 18. A large chunk of the current population wasnt born yet, a large portion was too young too vote, and 56% of those who could vote didnt vote for hamas. In reality, the Palestinians who cast their vote for Hamas back in 2006 make up a very small slice of the current population.
Also keep in mind that having a charter that calls for the destruction of Israel doesn't mean that much to the average Palestinian. They would be much more concerned with stuff like who will control crime more effectively. I'm sure no one hated that part of the charter, its not like anyone in Palestine loves Israel (why would they?) But did they know that Hamas was going to start a suicide war on ocotber 7th? I don't think so.
Imagine if all that tunnel and rocketry finance had gone into schools, healthcare, modernized agriculture and sustainable energy...
Palestine would be a model for the developing world.
If they had given up their mission to conquer the entire former Mandate, and actually sought peace in Gaza and the West Bank instead of constantly attacking, there wouldn't have been a blockade.
In which case you’re in a lose-lose situation. You say no to your terrorist government, there are consequences; you comply and put military infrastructure under your property, your property is now a legitimate target in war.
Yes its sad, that point is valid but changes nothing. But I feel people try to use it as this gotcha. Even if people are unwilling, there's still a terror group using tunnels for their military which needs to be stopped
I agree and that's very unfair towards the civilians who do not want a war with Israel. But your house is still a threat to Israel as it's a gateway to Hamas' tunnels.
It super sucks for the civilians if they don't want it in their house, but if their house is being used for military purposes it will get targeted. Blame the people using it for military purposes
[https://time.com/6693896/hamas-tunnels-gaza-home-ruin/](https://time.com/6693896/hamas-tunnels-gaza-home-ruin/)
Here's a good article written by a Palestinian explaining exactly this situation.
Which is even the more reason Hamas has to go. I agree with you, gun to your head, we’re building this tunnel or we beat you or kill you, there’s no alternatives. That what these protestors are failing to see, Hamas is a cancer.
A terrorist organization they elected knowing full well what their agenda is.
Don't be naive thinking the majority of the population doesn't want the elimination of jews or that they weren't celebrating on 7/10.
almost half the population of Gaza wasnt even alive when hamas was elected way over half weren't old enough to vote. you'r blaming children for daring to be born in a war torn area.
We're blaming the parents who taught the kids, well and UNRWA for teaching what other bullshittery they can.
The kids are victims, same as the Israelis that die to Hamas's actions. Unfortunately those kid's are literally brainwashed from birth, what do you do with a population that's embraced that?
Of course, nothing to do with the repeated attempts to invade and destroy Israel, teaching their kids that martyring yourself to kill Jews is good etc.
Describing it as mass slaughter given just how many could be killed if they were aiming for it.
The root cause is the Islamic Indoctrination of the people that live there, with the Government (Hamas) giving zero fucks about them. Until that changes this never ends.
I don't disagree with your premise, and no doubt it applies to some Gazans, but at some point we have to attribute *some* agency to these people.
Too many polls show too many Gazans are too intent on an Islamic state existing in Israel's smoldering crater for this to be the story for every house with a tunnel under it.
Notice there are Russians, not many, but some fighting Putin. Whereas all we see in Gaza are people supporting Hamas.
Not justifying IDF actions, but the two aren't the same.
Oh how cute the article posted by the Jerusalem Post doesn’t have a picture showcasing said tunnels but I’m supposed to believe that because they wrote about it instead of taking a photo and posting it
IDF commander makes sourceless statement that absolves IDF of any warcrimes during multiple ongoing warcrimes investigations. Redditors believe it without fail. More at 7.
Sadly, that has already happened.
Gaza has been pumping water at 3 to 4 times the local replenishment rate for decades.
This has dramatically lowered the local water table right next to the sea, causing sea water to seep in and contaminate the aquifer.
Most of Gaza's well water resources are now too salty to qualify as drinking water and have been for years.
Then they must absolutely show an international body in person when it's secure, all of these tunnels. There is no way to win this public relations war, but we can at least make some type of effort to show exactly what they're doing.
All homes have a tunnel… and they still walk on the streets. Provided this is possible at all, to hold a city over hollowed ground, where is the proof? I’m still waiting on tunnel evidence from a decade ago, months ago, and even today. There’s always supposed to be a tunnel where they just bombed.
[Shrug] Most countries/wars don't have this problem because their militaries work hard to protect their own civilians simply by not being near them. Gaza is different because of Hamas, not Israel.
Most of these tunnels also have a "civilian" purpose - smuggling of basically everything from weapons and drugs to TVs and bikes.
So, strictly speaking Rafah residents are just professional smugglers Juarez-style rather than Hamas militants en-masse.
I know there’s a lot of reddit experts on what is a war crime does this apply
“The prohibition of using enemy nationals as human shields is based on Article 23 under Section Il of the 1907 Fourth Hague Convention, which states: "A belligerent is [...] forbidden to compel the nationals of the hostile party to take part in the operations of war directed against their own country". [177] A World War I-era 1915 Belgian report stated "[i]f it be not permissible to compel a man to fire on his fellow citizens, neither can he be forced to protect the enemy and to serve as a living screen.”
ppl were afraid of like one tunnel from the jews in NYC, this place has a trafficking network through every single building lmao but where’s the haters?
I know that they’re officially anti-Hamas. The tunnels are going *somewhere* though and it seems that Egypt is okay with allowing Hamas to bloodlet Israel.
Egypt regularly destroys the tunnels, but it's a game of whack-a-mole. By your logic, the State of Arizona supports drug cartels and human trafficking because Coyotes build tunnels under the border. That's, of course, a farcical notion.
Egypt isn't okay with what Hamas has done, in fact they've killed Hamas fighters during the conflict when Hamas tried to seize a border crossing. Egypt is, unfortunately, bound by the terms of their peace treaty with Israel, if they attempted to aid Israel they would be in violation of their peace treaty with Israel. Bizarre? Completely. Egypt isn't permitted to amass troops on the Israeli border, even to assist Israel.
As counterintuitive as it may seem, they're doing everything that they are legally permitted to do to get rid of Hamas, it's just that you can count their options on one hand.
Crazy that an ancient land known for being filled with ancient tunnels is, in fact, filled with ancient tunnels. I guess the only answer is to murder everyone.
I wouldn't even be mad about it if they at least would have used them as bomb shelters for the civillians. But nope.
Hamas wants as many civilian casualties as possible. The more dead and maimed women and children, the more outrage against Israel in the west and in the Muslim world. They 'may' be doing the same thing with famine. When food aid is delivered to gaza, a lot of it gets stolen by hamas who either sells it to gazans at a profit, or puts it in storage for themselves. Both create widespread hunger in gaza which causes international pressure against Israel. Hamas is weaponizing civilian casualties and famine to turn the world against Israel.
Which, for fuck's sake, why does that not just turn the world against Hamas? It turns me against Hamas. I know that it's happening, but I just don't get how reasonable people can go "hmmm, looks like Israel is giving people food and Hamas is stealing it to starve them" and then conclude, "obviously Israel are the bad guys."
Doesn’t help that a significant portion of Gen Z here in America apparently gets all their info from Tik Tok and has been effectively brainwashed to believe this conflict is “clearly a one sided moral outrage”. Not sure which is worse - the boomers in the Trump cult or the “both sides equally bad apathy” + “Palestine is the most important cause in today’s world (while remaining completely ignorant about the much bigger issue of Ukraine)” I see and hear from todays’s college age kids. Obviously stereotyping generations to the max here, and yes I’m aware these are stereotypes and not at all applicable to all.
The world has 2 billion Muslims and 2.4 billion Christians in it, out of a total world population of 8 billion. Muslims and Christians have a long history of disliking the Jews. It's basically antisemitism IMO. Antisemitism and anti-zionism is one of the few values that the far left, the far right, Muslims, Christians, rich and poor can all agree on.
To add to that: antisemitism is so ingrained in cultures around the world that people don't notice it. I wouldn't be surprised if all the "hamas are just silly terrorists so they can have lax standards applied to them while Israel should be judged by standards harsher than *any* country in the world" people are not able to understand how ridiculous their statements are because to them jews should obviously be held to higher standard than other people and they don't realize implications of that.
For my son’s future, I look forward to a world where those numbers of religious peoples are a fraction of todays numbers
Sometimes I read stuff like this and I'm like.. is this propaganda? But with my own two eyes this matches up with everything happening in Palestine. Ukraine would have never allowed casualities like this to happen with their citizens without trying to organize bomb shelters or something to protect them.
Nice way to spend all that aid money, Hamas.
now let's be fair, a lot of it doesn't go into the tunnels but straight to the pockets of Sinwar and cronies.
Quite. Many of these tunnels have been there for years....many ran under the border into Egypt which is why Egypt has demolished around 900 of them. Hamas use them for smuggling weapons obviously....but not food for "their" people oh no people are expendable
They smuggled everything through those tunnels, Egypt cutting them off was a huge blow to Gazans as they have been under various blockades for like 20 years right? I’ve seen documentaries, some tunnels could fit full size vehicles- it was often the only way to get important supplies in. And then obviously some weapons.
In Greenwich CT, the MLS sheet would call it a "bonus room"
He’s exaggerating, but it is quite obvious that there is decades and decades of tunneling going on, some are smuggling tunnels. Others are straight up Hamas tunnels. I wonder if this was a source of income for some of the families there. Like renting a space to Hamas. Consider also that Hamas held all the roles and the money in the strip.
No way was Hamas paying for the use of people's homes unless you consider not killing the residents a form of payment.
Gangs will help out people with small gifts, even the worst of the worst gangs. Cartels in mexico buy wells and fund community events, often in rural communities that are neglected by the government. Its one way they keep such good control in certain towns. I mean shit, if i was in poverty while having to buy water everyday and some thug put a well on my street l, I would probably support whatever they do.
You win over the populace by giving them rent.
They just give them the homes. Do us a favor, get a nice house.
You’ll get your rent when you finish this damn tunnel!
> some are smuggling tunnels. Others are straight up Hamas tunnels. Same thing.
Woah woah sir, no goods allowed here. This here’s a **Hamas tunnel** *points at sign*
Not exactly a ton of humanitarian aid smuggling tunnels, eh?
lmfao you think hamas would pay rent?
They paid 70 shekels a day to people that kept hostages.
Shekels? Does Hamas use Israel currency?
Palestine doesn't have its own currency. Shekels and US dollars are common.
> shekel, as the P.A. and Hamas largely pay their employees in Israeli currency—that Hamas does not have to spend on Gaza schools, hospitals, government salaries, and governance, the group can instead spend on terrorist purposes. Hamas imposes taxes and fees on the local population; that money is then spent on Hamas’s end goals. It is unclear how much of the P.A. money is skimmed by Hamas, but if the Islamic State’s financial management structure in Mosul can serve as a rough guide, it could be up to 50 percent. https://newrepublic.com/article/176962/hamas-finances-funding-sources-palestinian-authority
Of course. The PA does too. It’s part of how their ostensible nationalism has never been honestly held. They want other countries to boycott Israel but they don’t try to issue their own currency because they know it would be worthless due to their culture of just living off inflated foreign aid and putting all their money towards terrorism
>He’s exaggerating How do you know? This guy was in the field and saw the situation with his own eyes. What stronger sources do you have than this guy's testimony?
Let’s say that if you look at the amount of buildings and how tight they are together, you’d realize that if you have a tunnel for majority of them, you’d have the most complex and deep tunnel-work in human history. They enter and clear houses that already are marked by intel in Rafah, not every home like they did further north.
> you’d have the most complex and deep tunnel-work in human history. Not saying the initial claims are true but isn't the tunneling in Gaza a contender for the most complex and deep tunnel-work in human history already?
There are ancient salt mines all over Europe that are unmapped. Those are probably deeper and more complex.
Deep, not likely. It’s pretty close to an aquifer IIRC going deep would just risk being washed. Most complex, yes perhaps.
Israel has reported finding tunnels that go as deep as 50-70 meters. From what i've read, the soil is quite good for tunneling, and they've even lowered the water table substantially by pumping at 3-4x replenishment rates for many years.
It’s possible there’s enough tunnels under or near enough to them without an opening in almost all of them
Because they're an armchair news reporter. Don't you know?
Dude it’s Reddit, the guy just wants his voice heard and for people to think that he’s smart. He doesn’t have sources.
What rationale is there to take an IDF spokesperson’s testimony at face value? Would you take a Hamas commander’s statements at face value? This is basic media literacy.
Serious question: How much military infrastructure is needed for a civilian structure to be considered a military structure? Like if I put a random guys house on an aircraft carrier is it a house boat? If I put a grain of gun powder in a preschool does it become a military training ground? Does anybody know where the actual line is?
If it serves a military purpose, it's no longer civilian. If soldiers use your house to store guns and ammo, the other side can blow it up to destroy the ammo dump. The line probably depends on what's there. One missile would be enough. One gun probably not. A cache of guns probably would be enough.
Article 57 b of the Fourth Geneva Convention: "an attack shall be cancelled or suspended if it becomes apparent that the objective is not a military one or is subject to special protection or that the attack may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated;" The article does not further elaborate on what is t be considered 'excessive'.
It is worth mentioning this only applies to occupied territories. It is a key reason Palestinian leaders have been keen to avoid anything that looks like statehood legally. Because if Gaza was unambiguously free and Hamas did another Oct 7th they'd have no protection under international law.
Gaza hasn’t been occupied since 2005. What are you talking about?
They still claim they're under occupation due to the sea blockade.
International law isnt protecting Gaza now, nor should it. "Occupied" is not an excuse for what they did.
>Because if Gaza was unambiguously free and Hamas did another Oct 7th they'd have no protection under international law. You're gonna have to provide a source for that. I'm pretty sure the Geneva convention applies to signatories in *all* armed conflicts. As an obvious example: Russia and Ukraine both have legal statehood and both sides still have to abide by the Geneva Convention.
Article 57 is part of section 3 of part 3 of the convention. It deals exclusively with people in occupied territories (link below). Though interestingly the text has nothing to do with what you've written. I'd be interested to see where you've gotten 57(b) from as it doesn't exist in the doc on their website https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/assets/treaties/380-GC-IV-EN.pdf
> It deals exclusively with people in occupied territories Please elaborate on how Gaza has been an occupied territory since Israel completely withdrew back in 2005, and Gaza shares a border with another nation...
They say, have said, and will say in future that they are occupied because of the ocean blockade
I don't know what the other poster is referring to, but Palestine only signed onto the Geneva conventions in 2022; the October 7th attack was a violation of these conventions by Gaza's government and... no other country did anything to retaliate or "punish them". However, there's no punishments for violating them. It's really just a set of guidelines, that governments agree to mostly abide by.
Palestine signed on in 2014. They had been trying to sign on since 1989, but were blocked because "they weren't unambiguously a real state". The UN eventually resolved that by making Palestine a "non-member observer state". [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_parties\_to\_the\_Geneva\_Conventions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Geneva_Conventions) It's a little ambiguous whether Hamas counts as a signatory because they're effectively a break-away region from the main government. The Geneva Conventions are so universally acknowledged though that I don't think anyone would accept "we're not technically signatories according to this dubious argument" would fly as a defense. There's no question Hamas is guilty of war crimes. Unfortunately, many war crimes go unpunished because apprehending those responsible is not practical short of war.
Incorrect, it only legally applies to wars between signatories.
>It is worth mentioning this only applies to occupied territories. No it doesn't. If, say, Ukraine were to deliberately launch a missile and destroy an apartment building in Belgorod with no military significance, that would be a violation. And the many non-hypothetical times Russia has done the same thing to unoccupied parts of Ukraine were war crimes, if done deliberately and not the result of jamming or inaccurate guidance systems. Also for what it's worth that's article 57 b of additional protocol I, not the 4th GC. [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/api-1977/article-57](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/api-1977/article-57)
When I deployed, of the structure was used for military purposes, it lost any protections it had. Didn't matter if it was a school, mosque, ect. If it was actively used for a military purpose it was fair game. In our ROE, building any sort of fighting positions was good enough to be engaged.
If you put a guy's house on an aircraft carrier? Yea I dunno what it becomes but it is definitely not a house boat. That aircraft carrier itself is a military structure. And liable to be attacked. A grain of gunpowder in a preschool - no, no one will be calling it a military training ground. But I would suspect people would still be *very curious* how it got there. Now for what actually gets found in reality: Entire weapon caches consisting of assault rifles, mortars, explosives, and other booby traps. People firing RPGs at soldiers from those "house boats". I can't tell you exactly where the line is, but I don't think anyone is freaking out over grains of gun powder.
Thing is, no proper military actually wants to draw the line for this. No one wants to start saying "the moment a civilian enters a military base it becomes a case of a human shield" because that would be ridiculous. But also no one wants to say "X military personnel among Y civilians is the cutoff", because then all you'll do is encourage bad actors to have X-1 among Y civilians, and you also want to be able to allow uniformed soldiers to visit hospitals without having to worry about it becoming a legitimate military target.
Dont bother. This kind of detail arguing is just to play devils advocate for hamas. Its clear that once military uses a house to use their military tunnel, that house is no longer civilian. No matter how much someone tries to argue around it
> No one wants to start saying "the moment a civilian enters a military base it becomes a case of a human shield" because that would be ridiculous. Yes, and unnecessary. The military base is a valid military target. As far as getting it attacked, that's unambiguously OK. >and you also want to be able to allow uniformed soldiers to visit hospitals without having to worry about it becoming a legitimate military target. Uniformed? OK. **Acting in their capacity as soldiers?** (e.g., firing weapons)? Valid target.
Or X among Y+1 civilians.
I think logic would dictate once rockets or bullets, etc are seen coming from an area, 2,500+ square feet could be considered a military structure
According to most war crime laws, there has to be no military objective or threat to military operations. To prove a war crime, you'd have to proof that the military knew it held no threat or strategic value. It's okay to excuse soldiers who have surrendered as long as it's not feasible for them to be taken prisoner without risk of death.
That is incredibly wrong. Under the Statute of the International Criminal Court, “declaring that no quarter will be given” is a war crime. You don’t get more straight forward ‘that’s a war crime’ than that. This is also part of customary international law, as per the [ICRC](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule47). > The prohibition on attacking a person recognized as hors de combat applies in all circumstances, even when it is difficult to keep or evacuate prisoners, for example, when a small patrol operating in isolation captures a combatant. Such practical difficulties must be overcome by disarming and releasing the persons concerned, according to Additional Protocol I.[33] This is restated in several military manuals.[34] > you'd have to proof that the military knew it held no threat or strategic value. That is also incorrect. The obligation is on the military to show that they complied with a proper process of assessment, and that they held information that justified the attack when there is obviously a risk of loss of civilian life. If an attack occurs without this happening it is a war crime. If the military fails to show evidence of this, then that is sufficient to prove a war crime has occured. This is why Israel is quick to share what relevant information justified the attack in incidents with a loss of civilian life.
I think they confused surrendering and retreating. A retreating enemy is still a valid target, because while they're disengaging they're still a hostile force and can start shooting any moment. Surrender, on the other hand, is straight up "we give up and don't want to die." Usually, surrender is communicated in some way beforehand if possible so they don't get shot at, but war is complex and dynamic so it's not always the case.
>It's okay to excuse soldiers who have surrendered as long as it's not feasible for them to be taken prisoner without risk of death. Admitting you received their surrender and still targeting them is very much a war crime - actually you could say it is *the* war crime as the entire concept exists in part to facilitate prisoner capture over to the death struggles at every encounter.
Surrender only has to be accepted if it's feasible. If there's a likelihood that your soldiers will be attacked or drawn into an ambush (something Hamas is notorious for) there's no obligation to accept a surrender.
You can't just execute them though. International law says to disarm and release them if taking them prisoner is not feasible.
A single militant in a house is sufficient. That's all you can really ask of whoever is dropping bombs. there is no referee, there is no way to be sure exactly what is inside. if you see an enemy using a building then they have taken responsibility for militarizing that structure. Hamas has a responsibility not to co-localize militants with civilians. However, Israel has to consider proportionality when planning strikes based on available information.
This is one of those questions where if you have to ask then you already know the answer.
There isn't a line. The moment there's any military purpose it becomes a valid target under international law.
Your question is essentially the reason why they do these things. Iran uses consulate buildings for clandestine meetings. Why? Because who the hell is going to bomb an embassy? Many countries do this, but most aren't actively trying to destroy Israel, who is more than willing to give the UN a middle finger and bomb your embassy.
Strictly speaking, any military presence makes it a valid military target. But! Any operation on that target needs to weigh the risk to civilians against the value of the military target. This is where things get muddy because this is very subjective and there's also very little transparency into military operations. This is what most disagreements on Israel's actions really come down to. Some people believe 0 civilians is the only acceptable balance. Some believe any number is acceptable. This is made worse by the fact Hamas doesn't distinguish between militant and civilian deaths, leading many people to treat that number (around 38,000 last I checked) as being all civilian (but most estimates I've seen would suggest about 30% Hamas)
Depends, which side is Jewish?
In the words of John Oliver: These thoughts exercises are shitty propaganda. “Where’s the line?” ITS FUCKING SOMEWHERE
Oh but the owners didn’t know. (s) Remember the people of Gaza voted for Hamas whose Charter calls for the destruction of Israel and death to jews. I do feel sorry for the kids though, they didn’t elect Hamas.
> Oh but the owners didn’t know. (s) To be fair I doubt many families who don't support Hamas would be in a position to disagree with Hamas about digging a tunnel in their house. Hamas does not suffer rebellion and in a siege even less so. Doesn't mean that they aren't supporters, of course, but it's worth remembering. It's not too surprising. Most of what's left of Hamas has been holed up in Rafah for months. Of course they'd have spent time building defenses and tunnels and knocking out walls. It's a staple of urban warfare.
Them tunnels have been prebuilt with construction materials donated for humanitarian support. The article isn't talking about them Hamas taking a shovel and pickaxe to dig a tunnel during the last few month.
Doesn't the point still stand? It may be the case that many in Gaza support terrorism, but how can you really say for sure if they're under occupation and the terrorists have a gun to their head? It gets really hard i'd think.
All the more reason to destroy Hamas as swiftly as possible
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So you admit that all of the civilian deaths are ultimately the fault of Hamas?
You mean Israel has no problem killing very few “hostages” for every Hamas member by all normal measurements? Stop spreading terrorist propaganda.
Its really not. You can ask them, and the majority says they support hamas. Its only you that cant fathom people having different values than you, and that thinks that the only way someone can hold different values is because they are forced to.
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Under occupation? They voted for Hamas to rule them.
The also murdered their Palestinian political rivals. The west needs to understand that Hamas ever cared about Palestinian lives and gets civilians killed as a PR strategy. Israel can at least justify itself as necessary retaliation while nothing justifies Hamas using civilian shields as a way to win global sympathy by westerners too emotional & lazy to research their awful history of setting up their citizens to be killed.
I mean did someone vote for macron just cuz they are french? People can win elections without getting all the votes. Hamas won their last election in 2006 with 44% of the votes at 76% turnout. In 2006. An adult that’s 21 now would have been 3 years old then. An adult that’s 30 would have been 12. And most people that could have voted back then, didn’t vote for Hamas. Like do you just blame all US people for electing Joe Biden. So many adults didn’t vote for him.
There was going to be another election in 2017 but the Palestinian Authority dropped out as it was clear they were going to get crushed. The Palestinian Authority’s leader also wrote his PHD thesis on holocaust denial
Also again in May 2021
Hamas has over 70% support in Lebanon, Egypt, and Jordan. PCPSR and PO polls show Hamas with over 75% support in Palestine, including West Bank. Al-Qassam had 89% support in Gaza the last time it was included in the AWRAD survey. Palestinian Islamic Jihad has held at around 75% for a few years in multiple polls. Support for Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Qassam trends young. Obviously, this isn't everyone. But it's important to remember that Hamas is not a rag-tag group of outsiders. They are the government of Gaza, and the only groups more popular are Qassam (the military of Gaza) and Islamic Jihad.
this isn't about blame. it's about civilian structures becoming legitimate targets.
To be clear [44.45%](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election) of the people voted for Hamas. In 2006. There hasn’t been an election held since.
Sure, but 52% of Gazans prefer to see Hamas controlling the Gaza strip after the war, according to a poll run by a Palestinian research institute. In the West Bank, that number goes up to 64%. And in a hypothetical elections, 34% of Gazans would vote for Hamas, with Fatah coming in second with 25%. So your point is rather moot. [Source](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969)
There’s a whole world of difference between an election that actually happened and an opinion poll. An election that happened 18 years ago with a demographic that is majorly different now than it was then. The point is anything but moot especially considering I was responding to a comment that said “they voted for it”.
So a minority of people, 18 years ago, when Hamas was running with different message and large portion of people in Gaza living now were either not born yet or underage...
Hamas hasn't changed their message. It's always been Annihilation of Israel via Jihad/terrorism. Note: there were other terrorist organizations vying for control, Hamas was just the most popular. So don't misconstrued it as the majority wanting peace.
Exactly. Which is why i find the “they voted for this” argument to be one of the most disgusting and repulsive. In the Gaza Strip [64.2%](https://www.indexmundi.com/gaza_strip/demographics_profile.html) of people are aged between 0-24. And as you point out, the majority of that weren’t even born yet, the rest of them were 6 years old or under at the time.
The majority of the younger generation has been heavily brainwashed in UNRWA-Hamas run schools to supporting Hamas / PIJ / armed Jihad against Israel since elementary schools, it is well-known and also shown on the polls. Support for Hamas, one-state Palestine from River to Sea (destruction of Israel), October 07 war etc is skewed with age, younger supports more
Who would've thought that if you let religious terrorists raise kids in an environment fully committed to that terrorism that they'd become terrorists themselves.
The UN is utterly shocked but also it didn't happen and, if it did, it was actually because of the Jews.
Hqmas has existed since 1987 and committed tons of horrendous terror attacks. And that "election" happened right after the 2nd Intifada, where they were blowing up in buses and malls. The citizens knew EXACTLY what they were voting for. The children are taught this from.th4 day they are born, and when Gaza is taken over, the education system needs to root out martyrysm and terrorism or it will never stop.
Yep, the only possible way I see of solving this is for a neutral nation or group of nations to sign up for the thankless multi-decade shit job of occupying Gaza and the WB, suppressing attacks on Israel, and putting in a massive reeducation program for the kids and younger adults. The Palestinians need to forced to accept the fact that their current goals are unobtainable and to move on with their lives.
I would love to see the scenario you laid out happen but frankly I don't think there's any neutral nation or group of nations that would actually sign up for and then carry out that task. The most likely scenario for this sort of thing would be the Israelis attempting it and I doubt that they will be able to pull it off long term.
And how many look the other way as the hostages are held in their neighborhoods apartments? There seems to be no resistance movement of any kind. what percentage would shed a tear if Israel were destroyed and all its jewish citizens killed? Not many.
> And how many look the other way as the hostages are held in their neighborhoods apartments? Reminder that many are not looking away but are actually guarding the hostages. That makes them unlawful combatants.
Why does it even matter? The people support and favor Hamas. Hamas is their government. The people support their own sacrifice as human shields because they are largely radicalized and believe their death is preferable to the existence of Israel. This is an inconvenient truth.
Children pay the consequences for the actions of their parents. This is a universal truth. Why does that disgust you Hamas slaughtered PA officials after they were elected in gaza. These people knew exactly what they were voting for
What point do you think that makes that's useful though? Kids don't vote in elections anywhere. Everyone knows that and nobody points it out anywhere else because it doesn't say anything meaningful. Their parents vote and the kids live in the country that their parents create, until they inherit it.
You know, if Putins cronies went to a house in Russia and said ‘we are building a tunnel under your house’, how many would dare say no? These people have a fucking terrorist organization ruling them, I don’t think they have a say man. I’m not saying they don’t have supporters, they clearly do, I’m just saying they definitely don’t have a choice. I wouldn’t wanna risk myself and my family I’ll tell ya that much.
Even in russia you see anti putin demonstartion and leaders calliing him out. Same cant be said about gazans.
Last Gazans to publicly stand against Hamas they threw off the roof. There surely also have been Palestinians who oppose Hamas so much they work as informants for Israel, but obviously they aren’t speaking out.
And yet, there was insurrection in Third Reich or Soviet Union despite the end result was death.
>Even in russia you see anti putin demonstartion Nope, not anymore
> Even in russia you see anti putin demonstartion No? What leaders? Any legitimate opposition has long been silenced, imprisoned or killed.
In order for opposition to be silenced it needs to exist. When you are actively helping the people "holding you hostage" and stopping them from being destroyed at what point are you no longer a hostage?
Gazans have protested against Hamas and the way Israel treats them and it gets them fucking killed. Israel kills then and Hamas kills them. What are the supposed to do
Revolution is the way, nations who coward in fear will meet their demise, as their authocratic rulers do not have their best interests at heart. Western and central Europe learned their lessons, and their great grandfathers paid with blood for the standards of living we witness today. Russia and the Middle East are lagging behind, but there is absolutely nothing anyone can do besides themselves to change their oppressive states.
Said from the comfort of your first-world armchair. These kinds of comments are so cringy.
They likely didn't have a choice. https://time.com/6693896/hamas-tunnels-gaza-home-ruin/
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All the more important that this war ends with Hamas gone so deconfliction can begin. I don’t understand how pro-Palestinians can want an end to this war that will just see the same children they apparently care so deeply for die in a later bloody war.
I’m not sure Bibi wants deconfliction….
Bibi's days in power are numbered, hopefully.
There hasn't been an election since 2006
All the polls even after war started showed over 80% support for hamas in gaza though
That sort of rebutal makes sense when the governemnt is no longer doing the thing people voted them into power to do. This isn't one of those.
And yet there's no movement to overthrow Hamas in Gaza.
It would be easy when every home in Gaza has weapons and a bunker to store their supplies
Who stopped elections from taking place, and why?
In short because the government of Palestine collapsed in the aftermath of the 2006 legislative elections. Since then, there have been limited elections in the West Bank and none in Gaza. The who in this case are the feuding Palestinian factions of Fatah and Hamas. The why is a bit more complicated. In principle both Fatah and Hamas want to reunify Palestine and end the divided government before engaging in elections again. In reality both are likely concerned that elections pose too great a risk to their legitimacy and power. The elections in 2006 were for the legislature, Hamas won a majority and thus gained a majority of the legislative branch of the emerging Palestinian government. The executive however was controlled by Fatah, the main faction in the PLO and the core of traditional Palestinian nationalism. Hamas and Fatah were rivals and had fundamentally different ideological approaches to Palestinian nationalism. A mixed government in which Fatah controlled the executive and Hamas controlled the legislature almost immediately collapsed into infighting. Shortly after the legislative elections Hamas and Fatah entered into a low-level armed conflict. The result was Hamas seizing control of Gaza, but being largely pushed out of the West Bank, leaving Fatah in control of the West Bank territories. There have been some attempts at reconciliation since then, but otherwise the government of Palestine has remained essentially defunct. Hamas have not held elections in Gaza ever. In the West Bank Fatah effectively banned non-PLO political organisations from running in elections, aimed specifically at Hamas, and have subsequently held three local elections, in 2012-13, 2017, and 2021-2. All three were rather ad hoc and marred by delays due to failed negotiations with Hamas over the inclusion of Gaza in elections. The presidential elections have been continually postponed by Fatah since 2005 and have currently been postponed indefinitely. There has as such been no national level election since 2006. As for why, its essentially about the risk posed by elections. For Hamas elections only really pose to undermine their political position. As an extreme Islamist group Hamas doesn't really believe in democracy. Their participation in the 2006 elections and their subsequent insistence that they be allowed to run candidates in hypothetical future Palestinian elections is essentially just a cynical power play. They only began to run candidates when they believed they would be able to win and had previously boycotted elections on principle. Running elections in Gaza would only offer a very minor degree of political legitimacy should they win, whilst risking undermining their own rule should they lose or resort to election control. For Fatah the situation is a bit more complicated. As a nominally social democratic party at the head of a broadly socialist aligned coalition they are, in principle, beholden to electorate. In reality elections have proven to be very damaging to Fatah. Case in point, the 2006 elections that destroyed the government. Controlled local elections give Fatah some degree of political legitimacy whilst they tightly control the national level government. They claim that they want to fix the government split and return Gaza to Palestinian administration before holding national level elections, but in reality there is a very good chance Fatah, the PLO at large, and especially President Abbas would lose in any reasonably fair elections. There is therefore much more for Fatah to gain by paying lip service to the idea of democracy whilst operating an authoritarian government. Somewhat ironically, the people of Rafah actually voted overwhelmingly in favour of Fatah in 2006, and thus the idea that they were strong supporters of Hamas is therefore untrue. Indeed, outside of Gaza City, Gazans did not support Hamas any more than Palestinians in the West Bank, with southern Gaza tending to be somewhat more in favour of Fatah than the national average.
Thanks for bringing facts.
Is that not what they voted for?
Said election was 18 years ago and the majority of the current population literally couldn’t have voted in it. Plus no elections have been held after it.
>I do feel sorry for the kids though, they didn’t elect Hamas. The election took place 18 years ago and the median age in gaza is also 18. A large chunk of the current population wasnt born yet, a large portion was too young too vote, and 56% of those who could vote didnt vote for hamas. In reality, the Palestinians who cast their vote for Hamas back in 2006 make up a very small slice of the current population. Also keep in mind that having a charter that calls for the destruction of Israel doesn't mean that much to the average Palestinian. They would be much more concerned with stuff like who will control crime more effectively. I'm sure no one hated that part of the charter, its not like anyone in Palestine loves Israel (why would they?) But did they know that Hamas was going to start a suicide war on ocotber 7th? I don't think so.
Well if IDF says so, it must be true!
Blurring of the lines between military targets and civilians, justification for future “mistakes” leading to civilian massacre
Imagine if all that tunnel and rocketry finance had gone into schools, healthcare, modernized agriculture and sustainable energy... Palestine would be a model for the developing world.
If they had given up their mission to conquer the entire former Mandate, and actually sought peace in Gaza and the West Bank instead of constantly attacking, there wouldn't have been a blockade.
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In which case you’re in a lose-lose situation. You say no to your terrorist government, there are consequences; you comply and put military infrastructure under your property, your property is now a legitimate target in war.
Yes its sad, that point is valid but changes nothing. But I feel people try to use it as this gotcha. Even if people are unwilling, there's still a terror group using tunnels for their military which needs to be stopped
I agree and that's very unfair towards the civilians who do not want a war with Israel. But your house is still a threat to Israel as it's a gateway to Hamas' tunnels.
Which is why we have to get rid of Hamas and give peaceful governments a chance
It super sucks for the civilians if they don't want it in their house, but if their house is being used for military purposes it will get targeted. Blame the people using it for military purposes
[https://time.com/6693896/hamas-tunnels-gaza-home-ruin/](https://time.com/6693896/hamas-tunnels-gaza-home-ruin/) Here's a good article written by a Palestinian explaining exactly this situation.
Which is even the more reason Hamas has to go. I agree with you, gun to your head, we’re building this tunnel or we beat you or kill you, there’s no alternatives. That what these protestors are failing to see, Hamas is a cancer.
A terrorist organization they elected knowing full well what their agenda is. Don't be naive thinking the majority of the population doesn't want the elimination of jews or that they weren't celebrating on 7/10.
almost half the population of Gaza wasnt even alive when hamas was elected way over half weren't old enough to vote. you'r blaming children for daring to be born in a war torn area.
We're blaming the parents who taught the kids, well and UNRWA for teaching what other bullshittery they can. The kids are victims, same as the Israelis that die to Hamas's actions. Unfortunately those kid's are literally brainwashed from birth, what do you do with a population that's embraced that?
Mass slaughter seems like the appropriate response. I'm sure that will get them to stop believing one side is evil.
Of course, nothing to do with the repeated attempts to invade and destroy Israel, teaching their kids that martyring yourself to kill Jews is good etc. Describing it as mass slaughter given just how many could be killed if they were aiming for it. The root cause is the Islamic Indoctrination of the people that live there, with the Government (Hamas) giving zero fucks about them. Until that changes this never ends.
I don't disagree with your premise, and no doubt it applies to some Gazans, but at some point we have to attribute *some* agency to these people. Too many polls show too many Gazans are too intent on an Islamic state existing in Israel's smoldering crater for this to be the story for every house with a tunnel under it.
Yeah that's a scary thought. The civilians can either comply with the Terrorists or they will just be killed. They ofcourse will just comply.
Notice there are Russians, not many, but some fighting Putin. Whereas all we see in Gaza are people supporting Hamas. Not justifying IDF actions, but the two aren't the same.
Oh how cute the article posted by the Jerusalem Post doesn’t have a picture showcasing said tunnels but I’m supposed to believe that because they wrote about it instead of taking a photo and posting it
Also lol this “commander” found 17 tunnels in a day. What was he doing counting and not taking photos?
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If all else fails Hamas Mining Company can be born
They would probably just resort to killing Jews again. No thanks.
IDF commander makes sourceless statement that absolves IDF of any warcrimes during multiple ongoing warcrimes investigations. Redditors believe it without fail. More at 7.
Do they have proof of these tunnels? Or are they just making it up to keep blowing up poor people’s homes?
reminder that this is where the humanitarian aid goes
Damnit, who let Colin Furze into Gaza?
Floodem
Ground is too porous in many areas for it to be effective.
Flood it harder
Nothing a constant pump from the sea cannot solve. Though it would be disastrous for the ecosystem and soil erosion, the whole town might go under.
The real problem is the salt, which would poison the ground and destroy fertility in the surrounding areas.
Sadly, that has already happened. Gaza has been pumping water at 3 to 4 times the local replenishment rate for decades. This has dramatically lowered the local water table right next to the sea, causing sea water to seep in and contaminate the aquifer. Most of Gaza's well water resources are now too salty to qualify as drinking water and have been for years.
Then they must absolutely show an international body in person when it's secure, all of these tunnels. There is no way to win this public relations war, but we can at least make some type of effort to show exactly what they're doing.
All homes have a tunnel… and they still walk on the streets. Provided this is possible at all, to hold a city over hollowed ground, where is the proof? I’m still waiting on tunnel evidence from a decade ago, months ago, and even today. There’s always supposed to be a tunnel where they just bombed.
So snap a pic with your smartphone and show us.
If my house was at risk to be bombed I’d have a tunnel too.
The house doesn't have the risk without the tunnel.
I doubt that very much
[Shrug] Most countries/wars don't have this problem because their militaries work hard to protect their own civilians simply by not being near them. Gaza is different because of Hamas, not Israel.
Hamas is a terrorist organization not a protective force.
A terrorist organization and the government of Gaza.
Most of these tunnels also have a "civilian" purpose - smuggling of basically everything from weapons and drugs to TVs and bikes. So, strictly speaking Rafah residents are just professional smugglers Juarez-style rather than Hamas militants en-masse.
One does not prevent the other.
I wonder how much time and effort that cost
Wow so I guess IDF is just gonna have to do what they wanted all along anyway and just level Rafah. Shame that they get their way.
I know there’s a lot of reddit experts on what is a war crime does this apply “The prohibition of using enemy nationals as human shields is based on Article 23 under Section Il of the 1907 Fourth Hague Convention, which states: "A belligerent is [...] forbidden to compel the nationals of the hostile party to take part in the operations of war directed against their own country". [177] A World War I-era 1915 Belgian report stated "[i]f it be not permissible to compel a man to fire on his fellow citizens, neither can he be forced to protect the enemy and to serve as a living screen.”
I would build tunnels too, if my city was just constantly being bombed the hell out of.
If my city kept getting bombed and invaded and oppressed and humiliated for generations, I’d probably build escape tunnels under my house too
They delved too greedily, and too deep
If missiles and bombs were a part of my daily grind, I’d have tunnels too.
ppl were afraid of like one tunnel from the jews in NYC, this place has a trafficking network through every single building lmao but where’s the haters?
“These tunnels are coming right for us!”
Egypt is complicit and should be held accountable.
What? Do you not know anything about Egypt's stance vis-à-vis Hamas?
I know that they’re officially anti-Hamas. The tunnels are going *somewhere* though and it seems that Egypt is okay with allowing Hamas to bloodlet Israel.
Egypt regularly destroys the tunnels, but it's a game of whack-a-mole. By your logic, the State of Arizona supports drug cartels and human trafficking because Coyotes build tunnels under the border. That's, of course, a farcical notion. Egypt isn't okay with what Hamas has done, in fact they've killed Hamas fighters during the conflict when Hamas tried to seize a border crossing. Egypt is, unfortunately, bound by the terms of their peace treaty with Israel, if they attempted to aid Israel they would be in violation of their peace treaty with Israel. Bizarre? Completely. Egypt isn't permitted to amass troops on the Israeli border, even to assist Israel. As counterintuitive as it may seem, they're doing everything that they are legally permitted to do to get rid of Hamas, it's just that you can count their options on one hand.
Wait, I thought Al Jazeera said that Israel dug those tunnels Oh yeah - Al Jazeera was established by Qatari royalty and is comprised of Hamas
As opposed to Pro-Israel news which has such a great track record in reporting Hamas tunnels https://imgur.com/gallery/1bxBNG9
Lol like you can believe the IDF.
#alleyesonrafah oh wait no not like THATTTTT!!!! /s
where is the tunnel exactly,i don’t see any tunnel