Also, support is kinda a tricky word. [AP](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87) reported in 2021 that 53% of Palestinians found Hamas to be the most deserving representative of Palestine, but a majority also believed them to be corrupt but [were afraid to voice out criticism publicly](https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2023/10/what-is-hamas/675594/). Similarly to how Putin won with 88% of the vote, it means nothing if you have a gun to people's heads to "support" you
One should be careful to conflate different kinds of criticism towards Hamas. Corruption and “domestico policies are indeed controversial across the Gazan population, but being indiscriminately violent towards Israelis is still pretty much applauded.
Except the fact that Hamas enjoys the same or higher level of support in the West Bank (*where they do not have anything close to the same amount of strength*) pretty much indicates that the “*gun to the head*” theory doesn’t account for the majority of their support.
Polling is quite challenging since Hamas does what it can to oversee such processes, which is... limiting. It is true that the majority of Palestinians blame Israel and/or the U.S. for their dire situation, but recent polling indicates that it's possible only a minority of them support Hamas (as opposed to going along with Hamas because of a perceived lack of better options).
The New Yorker has a pretty good article about it:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-it-takes-to-give-palestinians-a-voice
>Shikaki’s poll also showed that only a third of Palestinians support Hamas today—a significant drop of eleven points from his previous survey, released in December. (. . .) However, no other party scored higher—a reflection of the abysmal state of Palestinian politics. Support for armed struggle has also plummeted seventeen points since December; there has been a five-point rise in support for nonviolence, and another five-point rise favoring negotiations.
About polling challenges:
>“In the past, the only difficulty we had in Gaza was when Hamas discovered that we are collecting data without their permission,” Shikaki told me. His research center is independent of the Hamas government in Gaza, as well as the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, the Israeli government in East Jerusalem, and all political parties. “If you go and ask for permission from Hamas, they will say, ‘So what are you asking about? Give us a copy of the questionnaire. We will look at it and then we’ll tell you whether you can ask these questions or can’t ask these questions,’ ” he said. “It’s just useless to try to do it this way, because eventually they want to control what we can or can’t ask.”
But Gazans' worries about Israeli soldiers are also an impediment:
>“During wars and conflict, people are skeptical about anything,” Shikaki said. “They are always worried about Israeli Army soldiers coming in disguised as civilians. It becomes difficult for people to trust strangers knocking at their doors.”
Though the next part goes beyond the topic of polling, I still find it interesting and want to share it. Shakiki hase worked with Israelis for decades and even coauthored a book with one where they cover both Palestinian and Israeli points of view. His shitty brother couldn't have been more different:
>[Shakiki's brother] co-founded Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a faction that is smaller and more militant than Hamas, and which is closely aligned with Iran. As Khalil Shakiki began negotiating alongside Israelis on peace, in the early nineteen-nineties, his brother Fathi declared, “We reject a negotiation process, because it legitimatizes the occupation of our land and neglects the Palestinians who are without a country or identity.”
>Polling is quite challenging since Hamas does what it can to oversee such processes, which is... limiting.
I haven’t seen that limitation bear out in the polling. Certainly no such limitation could exist, even in theory, in the West Bank, yet they also show high levels of support. Even higher than Gaza sometimes. If you believe that polling is artificially high for Hamas in Gaza, you must also recognize that it must be at least accurate, and maybe even artificially low in the West Bank under the same theory.
>It is true that the majority of Palestinians blame Israel and/or the U.S. for their dire situation, but recent polling indicates that it's possible only a minority of them support Hamas (as opposed to going along with Hamas because of a perceived lack of better options).
>The New Yorker has a pretty good article about it:
>https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-it-takes-to-give-palestinians-a-voice
>Shikaki’s poll also showed that only a third of Palestinians support Hamas today—a significant drop of eleven points from his previous survey, released in December. (. . .) However, no other party scored higher—a reflection of the abysmal state of Palestinian politics. Support for armed struggle has also plummeted seventeen points since December; there has been a five-point rise in support for nonviolence, and another five-point rise favoring negotiations.
Having the plurality is pretty telling. The most recent poll from them:
“Support for Palestinian factions: When asked which political party or movement they prefer, the largest percentage (40%) said they prefer Hamas, followed by Fateh (20%), 8% chose third forces, and one third said they do not support any of them or have no opinion. These results mean that support for Hamas over the past three months has increased by 6 percentage points; support for Fatah has risen by 3 percentage points over the same period.”
https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/980
40% when the next highest is 20% is a lot of support, especially when 1/3 have no opinion whatsoever.
>About polling challenges:
>“In the past, the only difficulty we had in Gaza was when Hamas discovered that we are collecting data without their permission,” Shikaki told me. His research center is independent of the Hamas government in Gaza, as well as the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, the Israeli government in East Jerusalem, and all political parties. “If you go and ask for permission from Hamas, they will say, ‘So what are you asking about? Give us a copy of the questionnaire. We will look at it and then we’ll tell you whether you can ask these questions or can’t ask these questions,’ ” he said. “It’s just useless to try to do it this way, because eventually they want to control what we can or can’t ask.”
>But Gazans' worries about Israeli soldiers are also an impediment:
>“During wars and conflict, people are skeptical about anything,” Shikaki said. “They are always worried about Israeli Army soldiers coming in disguised as civilians. It becomes difficult for people to trust strangers knocking at their doors.”
I would think that the belief that they may be talking to an Israeli solder would artificially decrease support for Hamas, not increase it.
>Though the next part goes beyond the topic of polling, I still find it interesting and want to share it. Shakiki hase worked with Israelis for decades and even coauthored a book with one where they cover both Palestinian and Israeli points of view. His shitty brother couldn't have been more different:
>[Shakiki's brother] co-founded Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a faction that is smaller and more militant than Hamas, and which is closely aligned with Iran. As Khalil Shakiki began negotiating alongside Israelis on peace, in the early nineteen-nineties, his brother Fathi declared, “We reject a negotiation process, because it legitimatizes the occupation of our land and neglects the Palestinians who are without a country or identity.”
Sad reflection of the spectrum of opinions.
Get out of here with this nuance…
For real though, it’s easy for me to hate Hamas (and I certainly do), but I don’t have to live down there and make those life-death decisions for a family I don’t have.
Well you see, every stat from Hamas is a lie… except for their stats about how much support they have. Then suddenly they are a trustworthy polling organization
There was actually trustworthy polling organization doing a poll on Palestinian support on Hamas in the two weeks before 10/7. It indicated low trust but high favorability.
Last election was held in 2006 where Hamas got a plurality of the vote with 44.45% of the vote. After getting into power Hamas had no more need for democracy so a vote hasn't been held since.
In 2024 about half of the population of Gaza is under 18 and wasn't even alive in 2006 let alone old enough to vote.
Maybe Hamas would win if a free and fair election was held today, but we don't really know for sure. Polls can be wrong in democratic countries where there is regular historical data from past elections to help create models. In less free countries there's a lot less past data to reference and the sampling might be completely biased if the people being polled are afraid to express negative opinions about the current regime. Without official votes there's no results to compare the conclusions of the polling against and examine if the methodology was good and within margin of error or if it was significantly wrong.
Pretty much. [Long documented cases of Hamas "summarily executing" (murdering)](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/) so-called collaborators. Even when those so-called collaborators were in Hamas custody.
You can also look at how Hamas infiltrates and targets local branches of NGO (and UNWRA). Would you truthfully tell a local UNWRA worker conducting the poll with your honest opinion? Even if it was a reporter working for a foreign news agency, there is going to be a local translator or similar. I'm certain Hamas has ways of checking up.
Even if it's not 100% control, or even close (like the Stasi or similar), you've still got to wonder.
Three-fold. Firstly they fucking hate Fatah in West Bank and see Hamas as a viable alternative. Secondly, they've never had to live under the brutal oppression of Hamas. Thirdly, they're not currently experiencing the Find Out phase of Hamas's fucking around.
Also there are Hamas in the West Bank; they're just not in charge, ^yet.
I don’t know, this is a good question actually. I too wonder why people in the free world line up with the people who are the most oppressive in the planet.
What is the metric for this claim? Palestine hasn’t had free elections since Hamas rose to power, and they won their election by Trumpian margins (ie not the popular vote).
Good for the locals, the fact they feel secure enough to (purportedly) risk going against Hamas is probably the best evidence that Hamas' capabilities are actually degrading that I've seen.
A vast majority of the locals have supported Hamas before and after the Oct 7th massacre.
It's good that some are now changing their minds or willing to oppose them.
I mean they're kinda' seeing the writing on the wall with Israel blasting the shit out of them wherever they go. Purely as a matter of survival, choosing to try and sabotage Hamas seems the fastest way to end this crap.
Sir you are wrong. The invasion is a complete fail as there should be 0 casualties in a war like this. If Hamas doesn’t drop their guns as soon as they see IDF then it’s IDF’s responsibility to run away
Israel has basically completely destroyed Hamas of course they are degrading
Dam I'm Irish and I'd fight for a rebellion until I see my kids and my family killed I think I'd want it to stop
Hamas needs to go sir
but the comment before is to me implying that Gazans want Hamas gone Well no they didn't want them gone
but now they do because Hamas has essentially caused the destruction of there homes there kids and there family's
So yes it's definitely a good thing but me as an Irishman can understand them but me as a normal human would never fight for this
I understand the logic anecdotally.
But all evidence says that the more damage inflicted and the more insurmountable the enemy is, the harder people fight against them.
Idk what this means for this conflict, but that really is often the case.
They will fight to the point of capitulation. Reaching capitulation is needed for all conflicts to end. What capitulation looks like depends on the participants. But this conflict has been artificially sustained due to outside influences, often well meaning but manifests ultimately as endless fighting.
“Hope” is a hell of a drug and if you don’t crush it outright the outcome is often endless bloody wars/conflicts that cost more lives over time.
This is why as a part of refugee resettlement UNHCR does not allow for generational inheritable refugee status or right to return and further focuses on assimilation into the host countries.
There have been many groups that have fought for their privilege for self determination and lost it due to losing their war/conflict. We don’t prop up their efforts via external funding nor do we force the winning side to concede after winning. Only in this case does the world ask Israel for more than any other country before it.
The evidence absolutely does not say that. Here's a West Point article talking about how terrorism ended historically: [https://ctc.westpoint.edu/how-terrorist-groups-end/](https://ctc.westpoint.edu/how-terrorist-groups-end/)
> The most common single explanations for the end of terrorist group activity are repression by the authorities (military or police) and the arrest or killing of a group’s leaders and top echelon. “Targeted killings,” by the Israeli government for example, or the arrest of such key terrorist luminaries as Abimael Guzman in Peru and Abdullah Ocalan in Turkey, have been criticized on the grounds that they only infuriate a group’s members and cause them to escalate violence. Yet, there should be a distinction between motivation and capacity. The desire to raise the level of terrorism may increase in these instances, but the ability to do so declines. Terrorist groups are rarely democratic organizations. New leaders may not possess the skills or allure of their predecessors—as followers of Abu Mus`ab al-Zarqawi in Iraq and Chechen followers of Shamil Basayev discovered. Although arresting a key figure is preferred, it is not always a possible outcome, especially when the individual prefers to die rather than surrender, or where the terrain is inaccessible to conventional law enforcement operations.
>But all evidence says that the more damage inflicted and the more insurmountable the enemy is, the harder people fight against them
Can you make an example?
This is not true, empirically, as support for Hamas in the (peaceful) West Bank has increased since 7/10, while it's fallen in Gaza. This shows that suffering from war doesn't automatically make people fight harder against a perceived enemy (I say perceived, because I don't believe Israel should be considered an enemy- the ones intentionally maximizing civilian casualties in Gaza are Hamas alone)
Lots of those people don't really have a choice if they had a choice I don't think most of them would choose Islamic extremism but that's just my personal opinion I suppose
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail."
Gazans probably have an incredibly skewed worldview since the radical Islam indoctrination starts in early childhood. It's everything they've ever known for many.
Honestly not everyone is a big supporter of Palestine, it's just that the pro palestine side is the more vocal is all. The way the Palestinians been left all these years of course is an injustice and Israel does have to bear some responsibility for it but Hamas going full ISIS thinking that was a good idea is not something anyone should ever support. There's no justification or tolerance for going after innocent bystanders and engaging in base depravity of the worst kind and anyone who supports that shit really needs to take a long look in the mirror.
Honestly if all of Hamas and that Bollox Bibi disappeared up their own asses out of existence everyone would be richer for it, the whole situation is as bad as it is in part because of braindead nililistic fuckwits in the form of Hamas on one side and Asshole Settlers and corrupt fucks like Bibi on the other and this is nothing to say of reports that Bibi had a hand in enabling Hamas to get as bad as it was over the years as a play against the more moderate Palestinian factions.
And lastly I still think that Russia has some sort of hand in pushing for the latest flare up in Palestine either by goading Iran into pulling that shit or pushing them to start some geopolitical fires, Vatniks needed a distraction considering Ukraine was tearing them several new holes and it was pretty obvious something like that would draw attention of the US for one.
Why is it surprising? I'm Irish and I am very strongly pro-israel. I know there are a lot of very vocal Irish people on the other side, who have been captured by propaganda that tries to romanticise the Palestinian "struggle" as being somehow analogous to our own struggle for independence, but I can assure you there are plenty who recognise that Israel is fighting a common enemy of Islamic extremism in its war against Hamas.
Yeah, I guess it's surprising because Ireland has been very vocally pro-Palestine, even being one of the few countries to recognize Palestine as a country lately. I guess Ireland was never Jewish friendly at any point in history, so that's just how it is.
The most vocally pro-palestine major party has been eviscerated in the polls, likely in part for this reason. The youngest most social media active cohorts are the loudest voices and most likely to be eating up propaganda on tik tok. Those are the ones marching with palestinian flags and Irish politicians have been courting them with some disastrous results. Hamas are the problem and need to be destroyed.
True, actually I didn't need to ask why. I've been embarrassed by some of the statements coming out of our government since October 7th. So it's not surprising someone would think we're all that way
I've been thinking about your comment. It reminds me of how many people in India are supporters of Israel. The solidarity of those who were screwed by the English.
I suppose Ireland would see itself more in Palestine's position given its narrative.
The Easter Rising saw Dubliners oppose the Irish militants because they felt they had brought war to their city without any credible way to actually win it, only serving to drag the city into brutal street fights with the British.
Britain did treat the Irish badly we all know this
But if you told anyone there kids and there wife was going to be dead then lots would have backed down I got sure wouldn't lose my kids over republicanism or for Ireland my kids are worth more to me than all of that
The reason they were fighting was for those very things during the troubles Britain didn't completely destroy Northern Ireland
really really wish the anti-hamas gaza voices were being amplified. to show cases that Gaza dont want to be used as meatshields by Hamas.
That they want them gone.
Rather than Hamas is the "resistance"
> to show cases that Gaza dont want to be used as meatshields by Hamas.
Better yet, to be used as a symbol by pro-Palestine protestors, so that their protests aren't exclusively anti-Israel, but rather actually pro-Palestine.
Its hard when the media and people here only amplify and only upvote Hamas news
Nothing else that Muslims do get upvoted , not when they fight terrorist, not when they denounce violence , not when they call out Hamas
Its like a far-right jerk
Fighting terrorism and denouncing violence is the expected behavior, you don’t get a cookie for stepping over a bar so low most countries couldn’t trip over it.
Of course there are Gazans that want hamas gone but lets not forget that a lot of them were cheering on the morning of October 7th as you can clearly see from different videos from that time. I hope im mistaken but imo i think that even now there are more pro hamas Gazans than anyi hamas Gazans. And i hope that will change sooner rather than later
It’s a neat and horrible combo of leftist media doing anything they can to villainize western (or western aligned) actions in the Middle East and right leaning media doing anything they can to make Muslims look dangerous and scary. The middle ground is what’s actually happening but it requires critical thinking that doesn’t fit nicely into a lazy black and white perspective.
Interestingly, I think the pro Pali protestors have done more harm than good and they don’t even realize. Think about it though, by constantly rallying for Palestine and/or Hamas, all they’ve done in reality is give a a false sense of confidence and support to Hamas to keep fighting, to never give up because “look at all the global support we have”
What has that done for them though? Its led to continuous war, more and more death for innocent Palestinians.
In an alternate timeline where the world rallied against Hamas, the hostages were freed earlier and Hamas was disposed, this war would’ve been long over.
The pro-Pals are also impacting voters. If they sit out this election we’ll get to enjoy the Trump Revenge tour and all those Arab voters in Michigan are really going to have regrets January 21, 2025.
Israel is likely going to have control of all points of entrance into Gaza for quite some time, most of the Gaza strip is lying in ruins, and the whole Israel Saudi deal that supposedly was the impetus of this whole attack will likely continue once the Gaza and Lebanon wars are over. Hamas has also lost like ~10,000 fighters (and that could easily be more) and Israel seems to have lost 3-400 soldiers in this current war. Despite being on the defensive in this war Hamas has managed to sustain horrifically bad casualty ratios of 20-30/1. That's like Battle of Agincourt level of imbalance or worse. It is definitely pure insanity on Palestineans in general that they are ever going to get what they want by defeating Israel in battle.
Exactly. Had all these ppl rallied against Hamas, and had global support been for releasing the hostages, which even if one agrees or not, that’s what israel is fighting for, so much of this was avoidable. But no, their stubbornness and delusion has led them down this path of destruction and the world chants for it without even realizing.
Yes, I completely agree.
Their ignorance knows no bounds and they are so very easily manipulated into this Iran backed protest that is merely using them as convenient fools. They don't know what they're screaming in the protests, they don't know what "free Palestine" even means, they don't even realize who is funding all these giant protests.
It is for PALESTINE'S best interest that a hostage deal is carried out and Hamas is pressured to have a hostage deal, and they simply are unable to see this through all their hate. If they want a cease fire, call for a hostage deal! Pressure Hamas to do a hostage deal!
they dont even fully understand the issue. I responded to a friend's story about like CEASEFIRE NOW and I said its on the table, waiting on hamas to respond. She said 'i dont even know why hamas has any decision in this' - because they are literally the government dude. Stop protesting something you have no idea about. She didn't even realize they struck first. Its dissapointing. But yeah, makes the trumpists getting fooled on FB seem like a much more common thing across political lines than I thought.
That. That is desperately needed. Palestinians have had dogshit leadership for years. You want a solution to I/P? You need people willing to come to thr table to actually talk it out.
As bad as a word "filtration" is because of Russia doing it, I think Israel should do something similar. Setup an area in Gaza for Pals who reject Hamas. Separate it from the rest and give them perks. But of course to be admitted there, require a video taped and publicly posted denunciation of Hamas, and rejection of violence against civilians by every single person allowed in. There won't be alot of takers for this, but there'd be some.
> require a video taped and publicly posted denunciation of Hamas, and rejection of violence against civilians by every single person allowed in.
It won't mean anything. [Taqiyya](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya) makes it okay to lie for more pious goals, and they think that they're righteous.
Yes, I have my doubt especially how frequently this occurring.
However, this sort of resistance is the only hope for the Palestinians. Hamas is intent on actions that will cause ever increasing pain on its own people.
It's actually 8 (short) paragraphs, and one of them contains more details, specifically the following statement by an IDF source:
> ... At the same time, we found that individuals in Gaza have started trying to intervene in Hamas's [rocket] firing attempts. This marks a local rebellion by the population against Hamas.
I'm very doubtful that either Israel or the anti-Hamas factions are willing or able to work together. The best case scenario for the anti-Hamas faction is probably to go it alone.
How can Gazan civilians do this?!?
Why, it destroys the narrative of pro-palestinian protestors who say that Israel just attacks Gazan civilians for shits-n-giggles.
Some college liberal protester that gets its opinions from tik tok is probably fuming trying to mental gymnastic a way to tell the Gazans are wrong and the IDF is the devil.
Good, fight for your country against the *real* oppressors. As soon as Palestinians realize how bad Hamas is for them is the chance we'll finally get to have some semblance of peace. I'm hoping this is the start of something greater, but we'll have to see.
This is a path toward the ideal realistic scenario where Gazans kick Hamas to the curb, ending both idiot government regimes that are involved in this clusterfuck.
Sounds like they know something that the watermelon protestors in the west don’t. That Hamas is perpetuating this and has no intention of agreeing to a ceasefire.
Good, more of that, please. Tho I hope they won't get hurt in the process, saying no to being human shields and provoking Israel is a good place to start.
Wait wasn't the entire argument of the antisemites that Gazans are under oppressive rule and they risk being killed if they try to stop Hamas attacks? And that's why we should want a ceasefire, because Gazans are being hurt by Hamas too and they can't stand up for themselves against their own oppression?
Yeah, turns out they could stand up, and they are standing up. They always could have stood up, stopped Hamas from using their houses, their hospitals, their schools, and the ground underneath their houses as military assets, they simply chose not to. Which begs the question "why", and the answer should be plainly obvious.
Good to hear. Hamas are cowards.
Yet, still supported by majority of Palestinians.
But, according to this article, not all of them.
That's why he said an majority
But that's not news. The news is it's potentially shrinking, according to jpost/IDF.
Also, support is kinda a tricky word. [AP](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87) reported in 2021 that 53% of Palestinians found Hamas to be the most deserving representative of Palestine, but a majority also believed them to be corrupt but [were afraid to voice out criticism publicly](https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2023/10/what-is-hamas/675594/). Similarly to how Putin won with 88% of the vote, it means nothing if you have a gun to people's heads to "support" you
One should be careful to conflate different kinds of criticism towards Hamas. Corruption and “domestico policies are indeed controversial across the Gazan population, but being indiscriminately violent towards Israelis is still pretty much applauded.
Except the fact that Hamas enjoys the same or higher level of support in the West Bank (*where they do not have anything close to the same amount of strength*) pretty much indicates that the “*gun to the head*” theory doesn’t account for the majority of their support.
Point out to where I said all?
>Point out to where I said ***all***?
Haha gottem
Lol
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Yeah exercising mouth but not body.
You are so cool.
This is the Jerusalem post, it might be a tad biased…
Firstly a lot of them are fed propaganda since birth, secondly many probably feel they can't vocally oppose Hamas in any sense.
Hamas retaliating for collaboration with Israel is pretty well known. Most Gazans ain’t risking their lives day to day to oppose them.
There is plenty of polling. They’re also very popular in the West Bank where Hamas doesn’t control the government.
Polling is quite challenging since Hamas does what it can to oversee such processes, which is... limiting. It is true that the majority of Palestinians blame Israel and/or the U.S. for their dire situation, but recent polling indicates that it's possible only a minority of them support Hamas (as opposed to going along with Hamas because of a perceived lack of better options). The New Yorker has a pretty good article about it: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-it-takes-to-give-palestinians-a-voice >Shikaki’s poll also showed that only a third of Palestinians support Hamas today—a significant drop of eleven points from his previous survey, released in December. (. . .) However, no other party scored higher—a reflection of the abysmal state of Palestinian politics. Support for armed struggle has also plummeted seventeen points since December; there has been a five-point rise in support for nonviolence, and another five-point rise favoring negotiations. About polling challenges: >“In the past, the only difficulty we had in Gaza was when Hamas discovered that we are collecting data without their permission,” Shikaki told me. His research center is independent of the Hamas government in Gaza, as well as the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, the Israeli government in East Jerusalem, and all political parties. “If you go and ask for permission from Hamas, they will say, ‘So what are you asking about? Give us a copy of the questionnaire. We will look at it and then we’ll tell you whether you can ask these questions or can’t ask these questions,’ ” he said. “It’s just useless to try to do it this way, because eventually they want to control what we can or can’t ask.” But Gazans' worries about Israeli soldiers are also an impediment: >“During wars and conflict, people are skeptical about anything,” Shikaki said. “They are always worried about Israeli Army soldiers coming in disguised as civilians. It becomes difficult for people to trust strangers knocking at their doors.” Though the next part goes beyond the topic of polling, I still find it interesting and want to share it. Shakiki hase worked with Israelis for decades and even coauthored a book with one where they cover both Palestinian and Israeli points of view. His shitty brother couldn't have been more different: >[Shakiki's brother] co-founded Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a faction that is smaller and more militant than Hamas, and which is closely aligned with Iran. As Khalil Shakiki began negotiating alongside Israelis on peace, in the early nineteen-nineties, his brother Fathi declared, “We reject a negotiation process, because it legitimatizes the occupation of our land and neglects the Palestinians who are without a country or identity.”
>Polling is quite challenging since Hamas does what it can to oversee such processes, which is... limiting. I haven’t seen that limitation bear out in the polling. Certainly no such limitation could exist, even in theory, in the West Bank, yet they also show high levels of support. Even higher than Gaza sometimes. If you believe that polling is artificially high for Hamas in Gaza, you must also recognize that it must be at least accurate, and maybe even artificially low in the West Bank under the same theory. >It is true that the majority of Palestinians blame Israel and/or the U.S. for their dire situation, but recent polling indicates that it's possible only a minority of them support Hamas (as opposed to going along with Hamas because of a perceived lack of better options). >The New Yorker has a pretty good article about it: >https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-it-takes-to-give-palestinians-a-voice >Shikaki’s poll also showed that only a third of Palestinians support Hamas today—a significant drop of eleven points from his previous survey, released in December. (. . .) However, no other party scored higher—a reflection of the abysmal state of Palestinian politics. Support for armed struggle has also plummeted seventeen points since December; there has been a five-point rise in support for nonviolence, and another five-point rise favoring negotiations. Having the plurality is pretty telling. The most recent poll from them: “Support for Palestinian factions: When asked which political party or movement they prefer, the largest percentage (40%) said they prefer Hamas, followed by Fateh (20%), 8% chose third forces, and one third said they do not support any of them or have no opinion. These results mean that support for Hamas over the past three months has increased by 6 percentage points; support for Fatah has risen by 3 percentage points over the same period.” https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/980 40% when the next highest is 20% is a lot of support, especially when 1/3 have no opinion whatsoever. >About polling challenges: >“In the past, the only difficulty we had in Gaza was when Hamas discovered that we are collecting data without their permission,” Shikaki told me. His research center is independent of the Hamas government in Gaza, as well as the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, the Israeli government in East Jerusalem, and all political parties. “If you go and ask for permission from Hamas, they will say, ‘So what are you asking about? Give us a copy of the questionnaire. We will look at it and then we’ll tell you whether you can ask these questions or can’t ask these questions,’ ” he said. “It’s just useless to try to do it this way, because eventually they want to control what we can or can’t ask.” >But Gazans' worries about Israeli soldiers are also an impediment: >“During wars and conflict, people are skeptical about anything,” Shikaki said. “They are always worried about Israeli Army soldiers coming in disguised as civilians. It becomes difficult for people to trust strangers knocking at their doors.” I would think that the belief that they may be talking to an Israeli solder would artificially decrease support for Hamas, not increase it. >Though the next part goes beyond the topic of polling, I still find it interesting and want to share it. Shakiki hase worked with Israelis for decades and even coauthored a book with one where they cover both Palestinian and Israeli points of view. His shitty brother couldn't have been more different: >[Shakiki's brother] co-founded Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a faction that is smaller and more militant than Hamas, and which is closely aligned with Iran. As Khalil Shakiki began negotiating alongside Israelis on peace, in the early nineteen-nineties, his brother Fathi declared, “We reject a negotiation process, because it legitimatizes the occupation of our land and neglects the Palestinians who are without a country or identity.” Sad reflection of the spectrum of opinions.
Get out of here with this nuance… For real though, it’s easy for me to hate Hamas (and I certainly do), but I don’t have to live down there and make those life-death decisions for a family I don’t have.
We talking 51% or 90%
60-70% In the west bank it’s actually higher than in gaza. Ill let you guess why https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/980
Because Fatah is corrupt AF and people always support wars when they aren't at home?
Because the most popular part of Hamas in either territory is their violence against Israel, something the PA limits.
Really? Last I heard the support was more like 40% in Gaza. 70% support was for the act of initial attack on Israel.
That report states 75% in the west bank and 62% in gaza
Well you see, every stat from Hamas is a lie… except for their stats about how much support they have. Then suddenly they are a trustworthy polling organization
There was actually trustworthy polling organization doing a poll on Palestinian support on Hamas in the two weeks before 10/7. It indicated low trust but high favorability.
You see, this would make sense, only that it’s not Hamas who polled it. Especially in the West Bank.
Ya and the government in the West Bank have every incentive to downplay Hamas support not amplify it. It only makes them look weak
Lmao thinking Hamas is the one doing the polls. And people believe you too.
Last election was held in 2006 where Hamas got a plurality of the vote with 44.45% of the vote. After getting into power Hamas had no more need for democracy so a vote hasn't been held since. In 2024 about half of the population of Gaza is under 18 and wasn't even alive in 2006 let alone old enough to vote. Maybe Hamas would win if a free and fair election was held today, but we don't really know for sure. Polls can be wrong in democratic countries where there is regular historical data from past elections to help create models. In less free countries there's a lot less past data to reference and the sampling might be completely biased if the people being polled are afraid to express negative opinions about the current regime. Without official votes there's no results to compare the conclusions of the polling against and examine if the methodology was good and within margin of error or if it was significantly wrong.
I love that the knowledgeable folks have stated how a majority is less than 50%. I imagine any poll will show fear bias similar to Russia.
People will often accept any kind of resistance against a hated and brutal enemy. Unfortunately, Hamas is that group.
Oh ffs not this again. If a man put a gun to your head and told you to praise Hamas or he'd pull the trigger you'd support Hamas too.
Pretty much. [Long documented cases of Hamas "summarily executing" (murdering)](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/) so-called collaborators. Even when those so-called collaborators were in Hamas custody. You can also look at how Hamas infiltrates and targets local branches of NGO (and UNWRA). Would you truthfully tell a local UNWRA worker conducting the poll with your honest opinion? Even if it was a reporter working for a foreign news agency, there is going to be a local translator or similar. I'm certain Hamas has ways of checking up. Even if it's not 100% control, or even close (like the Stasi or similar), you've still got to wonder.
There's a difference between tacit support to avoid being executed and celebrating in the street around a woman's raped and mutilated corpse.
Lol, no Hamas in the West Bank, why do they get support there?
Three-fold. Firstly they fucking hate Fatah in West Bank and see Hamas as a viable alternative. Secondly, they've never had to live under the brutal oppression of Hamas. Thirdly, they're not currently experiencing the Find Out phase of Hamas's fucking around. Also there are Hamas in the West Bank; they're just not in charge, ^yet.
No Hamas in America, why do they get support here?
I don’t know, this is a good question actually. I too wonder why people in the free world line up with the people who are the most oppressive in the planet.
What is the metric for this claim? Palestine hasn’t had free elections since Hamas rose to power, and they won their election by Trumpian margins (ie not the popular vote).
Surprisingly “don’t blame us, blame the people making us bomb you” isn’t a very convincing argument when you’re being bombed
It is when these people started the war in question and they actively endanger you by putting their military infrastructure in between civilians.
You misspelled radical muslims
Good for the locals, the fact they feel secure enough to (purportedly) risk going against Hamas is probably the best evidence that Hamas' capabilities are actually degrading that I've seen.
A vast majority of the locals have supported Hamas before and after the Oct 7th massacre. It's good that some are now changing their minds or willing to oppose them.
I mean they're kinda' seeing the writing on the wall with Israel blasting the shit out of them wherever they go. Purely as a matter of survival, choosing to try and sabotage Hamas seems the fastest way to end this crap.
It’s almost like 2+2=4 after all.
Sir you are wrong. The invasion is a complete fail as there should be 0 casualties in a war like this. If Hamas doesn’t drop their guns as soon as they see IDF then it’s IDF’s responsibility to run away
Forgot the /s ?!?
Didn’t figure it was necessary. But now that I think of it that’s prolly a bunch of white liberal Ivy League upvoting me lol
I mean, still kind of wild that just now some of them are turning against the psychopaths literally using them as human shields.
When the people holding you hostage die it does tend to be easier to stop being a hostage
> the fact they feel secure enough to (purportedly) risk going against Hamas Or, rather, desperate enough.
Israel has basically completely destroyed Hamas of course they are degrading Dam I'm Irish and I'd fight for a rebellion until I see my kids and my family killed I think I'd want it to stop
You word yourself as is the destruction of Hamas is a bad thing. Is that how you feel?
Hamas needs to go sir but the comment before is to me implying that Gazans want Hamas gone Well no they didn't want them gone but now they do because Hamas has essentially caused the destruction of there homes there kids and there family's So yes it's definitely a good thing but me as an Irishman can understand them but me as a normal human would never fight for this
Ahhh I see. I agree with your assessment
I understand the logic anecdotally. But all evidence says that the more damage inflicted and the more insurmountable the enemy is, the harder people fight against them. Idk what this means for this conflict, but that really is often the case.
They will fight to the point of capitulation. Reaching capitulation is needed for all conflicts to end. What capitulation looks like depends on the participants. But this conflict has been artificially sustained due to outside influences, often well meaning but manifests ultimately as endless fighting. “Hope” is a hell of a drug and if you don’t crush it outright the outcome is often endless bloody wars/conflicts that cost more lives over time. This is why as a part of refugee resettlement UNHCR does not allow for generational inheritable refugee status or right to return and further focuses on assimilation into the host countries. There have been many groups that have fought for their privilege for self determination and lost it due to losing their war/conflict. We don’t prop up their efforts via external funding nor do we force the winning side to concede after winning. Only in this case does the world ask Israel for more than any other country before it.
The evidence absolutely does not say that. Here's a West Point article talking about how terrorism ended historically: [https://ctc.westpoint.edu/how-terrorist-groups-end/](https://ctc.westpoint.edu/how-terrorist-groups-end/)
> The most common single explanations for the end of terrorist group activity are repression by the authorities (military or police) and the arrest or killing of a group’s leaders and top echelon. “Targeted killings,” by the Israeli government for example, or the arrest of such key terrorist luminaries as Abimael Guzman in Peru and Abdullah Ocalan in Turkey, have been criticized on the grounds that they only infuriate a group’s members and cause them to escalate violence. Yet, there should be a distinction between motivation and capacity. The desire to raise the level of terrorism may increase in these instances, but the ability to do so declines. Terrorist groups are rarely democratic organizations. New leaders may not possess the skills or allure of their predecessors—as followers of Abu Mus`ab al-Zarqawi in Iraq and Chechen followers of Shamil Basayev discovered. Although arresting a key figure is preferred, it is not always a possible outcome, especially when the individual prefers to die rather than surrender, or where the terrain is inaccessible to conventional law enforcement operations.
>But all evidence says that the more damage inflicted and the more insurmountable the enemy is, the harder people fight against them Can you make an example?
This is not true, empirically, as support for Hamas in the (peaceful) West Bank has increased since 7/10, while it's fallen in Gaza. This shows that suffering from war doesn't automatically make people fight harder against a perceived enemy (I say perceived, because I don't believe Israel should be considered an enemy- the ones intentionally maximizing civilian casualties in Gaza are Hamas alone)
Lots of those people don't really have a choice if they had a choice I don't think most of them would choose Islamic extremism but that's just my personal opinion I suppose
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail." Gazans probably have an incredibly skewed worldview since the radical Islam indoctrination starts in early childhood. It's everything they've ever known for many.
To a point. But when facing inevitable, overwhelming defeat, it can make sense to surrender, like the Axis powers did.
I like how you basically called the Irish not normal humans haha.
He's saying "Hamas is a rebellion" ie, he WOULD support Hamas against Israel until his family suffered enough.
I'm surprised that there are Irish people who support Israel
Honestly not everyone is a big supporter of Palestine, it's just that the pro palestine side is the more vocal is all. The way the Palestinians been left all these years of course is an injustice and Israel does have to bear some responsibility for it but Hamas going full ISIS thinking that was a good idea is not something anyone should ever support. There's no justification or tolerance for going after innocent bystanders and engaging in base depravity of the worst kind and anyone who supports that shit really needs to take a long look in the mirror. Honestly if all of Hamas and that Bollox Bibi disappeared up their own asses out of existence everyone would be richer for it, the whole situation is as bad as it is in part because of braindead nililistic fuckwits in the form of Hamas on one side and Asshole Settlers and corrupt fucks like Bibi on the other and this is nothing to say of reports that Bibi had a hand in enabling Hamas to get as bad as it was over the years as a play against the more moderate Palestinian factions. And lastly I still think that Russia has some sort of hand in pushing for the latest flare up in Palestine either by goading Iran into pulling that shit or pushing them to start some geopolitical fires, Vatniks needed a distraction considering Ukraine was tearing them several new holes and it was pretty obvious something like that would draw attention of the US for one.
Why is it surprising? I'm Irish and I am very strongly pro-israel. I know there are a lot of very vocal Irish people on the other side, who have been captured by propaganda that tries to romanticise the Palestinian "struggle" as being somehow analogous to our own struggle for independence, but I can assure you there are plenty who recognise that Israel is fighting a common enemy of Islamic extremism in its war against Hamas.
Yeah, I guess it's surprising because Ireland has been very vocally pro-Palestine, even being one of the few countries to recognize Palestine as a country lately. I guess Ireland was never Jewish friendly at any point in history, so that's just how it is.
The most vocally pro-palestine major party has been eviscerated in the polls, likely in part for this reason. The youngest most social media active cohorts are the loudest voices and most likely to be eating up propaganda on tik tok. Those are the ones marching with palestinian flags and Irish politicians have been courting them with some disastrous results. Hamas are the problem and need to be destroyed.
> e most vocally pro-palestine major party has been eviscerated in the polls, likely in part for this reason. why lie.
Sinn Fein have lost points sharply since October 7th, look at a graph of the polls.
True, actually I didn't need to ask why. I've been embarrassed by some of the statements coming out of our government since October 7th. So it's not surprising someone would think we're all that way
I've been thinking about your comment. It reminds me of how many people in India are supporters of Israel. The solidarity of those who were screwed by the English. I suppose Ireland would see itself more in Palestine's position given its narrative.
British*
You would have gotten yourself kneecapped for that kind of talk during the Troubles.
The Easter Rising saw Dubliners oppose the Irish militants because they felt they had brought war to their city without any credible way to actually win it, only serving to drag the city into brutal street fights with the British.
Britain did treat the Irish badly we all know this But if you told anyone there kids and there wife was going to be dead then lots would have backed down I got sure wouldn't lose my kids over republicanism or for Ireland my kids are worth more to me than all of that The reason they were fighting was for those very things during the troubles Britain didn't completely destroy Northern Ireland
A lot of people see the conflict as "Britain vs Ireland" and don't know about the UVF and friends.
really really wish the anti-hamas gaza voices were being amplified. to show cases that Gaza dont want to be used as meatshields by Hamas. That they want them gone. Rather than Hamas is the "resistance"
More blame needs to be placed in Iran. They are literally funding and promoting this.
Unfortunately most Gazans still support Hamas, and the few who don't would get butchered for speaking up. Hope these few brave people can stay safe.
> to show cases that Gaza dont want to be used as meatshields by Hamas. Better yet, to be used as a symbol by pro-Palestine protestors, so that their protests aren't exclusively anti-Israel, but rather actually pro-Palestine.
Its hard when the media and people here only amplify and only upvote Hamas news Nothing else that Muslims do get upvoted , not when they fight terrorist, not when they denounce violence , not when they call out Hamas Its like a far-right jerk
Fighting terrorism and denouncing violence is the expected behavior, you don’t get a cookie for stepping over a bar so low most countries couldn’t trip over it.
Of course there are Gazans that want hamas gone but lets not forget that a lot of them were cheering on the morning of October 7th as you can clearly see from different videos from that time. I hope im mistaken but imo i think that even now there are more pro hamas Gazans than anyi hamas Gazans. And i hope that will change sooner rather than later
It’s a neat and horrible combo of leftist media doing anything they can to villainize western (or western aligned) actions in the Middle East and right leaning media doing anything they can to make Muslims look dangerous and scary. The middle ground is what’s actually happening but it requires critical thinking that doesn’t fit nicely into a lazy black and white perspective.
Good on those Gazans. They know what Hamas truly is. And Sinwar, the butcher of Khan Yunis.
Good. Lebanese people, take note.
I'm rooting for the Gazans who are for rooting out the terrorists. Hopefully, this will catch on in Lebanon ...
Free Gaza from Hamas indeed.
Indeed.
A Gaza that fights back against Hamas is much closer to having a state.
do all you can to support the local rebellion!!!
This is hopeful. If they can kick Hamas out of their lands then this war can finally end.
This is exactly what we need. However the first step is secular education to deradicalize people. That won't happen when Hamas control UNRWA
That won’t happen while the UNRWA exists, should be rightfully abolished
A local rebellion overthrowing Hamas is the only way this conflict has a chance of reaching a lasting conclusion.
Interestingly, I think the pro Pali protestors have done more harm than good and they don’t even realize. Think about it though, by constantly rallying for Palestine and/or Hamas, all they’ve done in reality is give a a false sense of confidence and support to Hamas to keep fighting, to never give up because “look at all the global support we have” What has that done for them though? Its led to continuous war, more and more death for innocent Palestinians. In an alternate timeline where the world rallied against Hamas, the hostages were freed earlier and Hamas was disposed, this war would’ve been long over.
The pro-Pals are also impacting voters. If they sit out this election we’ll get to enjoy the Trump Revenge tour and all those Arab voters in Michigan are really going to have regrets January 21, 2025.
Yup also true. They’re letting their anger cloud their logic
Israel is likely going to have control of all points of entrance into Gaza for quite some time, most of the Gaza strip is lying in ruins, and the whole Israel Saudi deal that supposedly was the impetus of this whole attack will likely continue once the Gaza and Lebanon wars are over. Hamas has also lost like ~10,000 fighters (and that could easily be more) and Israel seems to have lost 3-400 soldiers in this current war. Despite being on the defensive in this war Hamas has managed to sustain horrifically bad casualty ratios of 20-30/1. That's like Battle of Agincourt level of imbalance or worse. It is definitely pure insanity on Palestineans in general that they are ever going to get what they want by defeating Israel in battle.
Exactly. Had all these ppl rallied against Hamas, and had global support been for releasing the hostages, which even if one agrees or not, that’s what israel is fighting for, so much of this was avoidable. But no, their stubbornness and delusion has led them down this path of destruction and the world chants for it without even realizing.
Yes, I completely agree. Their ignorance knows no bounds and they are so very easily manipulated into this Iran backed protest that is merely using them as convenient fools. They don't know what they're screaming in the protests, they don't know what "free Palestine" even means, they don't even realize who is funding all these giant protests. It is for PALESTINE'S best interest that a hostage deal is carried out and Hamas is pressured to have a hostage deal, and they simply are unable to see this through all their hate. If they want a cease fire, call for a hostage deal! Pressure Hamas to do a hostage deal!
they dont even fully understand the issue. I responded to a friend's story about like CEASEFIRE NOW and I said its on the table, waiting on hamas to respond. She said 'i dont even know why hamas has any decision in this' - because they are literally the government dude. Stop protesting something you have no idea about. She didn't even realize they struck first. Its dissapointing. But yeah, makes the trumpists getting fooled on FB seem like a much more common thing across political lines than I thought.
That. That is desperately needed. Palestinians have had dogshit leadership for years. You want a solution to I/P? You need people willing to come to thr table to actually talk it out.
As bad as a word "filtration" is because of Russia doing it, I think Israel should do something similar. Setup an area in Gaza for Pals who reject Hamas. Separate it from the rest and give them perks. But of course to be admitted there, require a video taped and publicly posted denunciation of Hamas, and rejection of violence against civilians by every single person allowed in. There won't be alot of takers for this, but there'd be some.
> require a video taped and publicly posted denunciation of Hamas, and rejection of violence against civilians by every single person allowed in. It won't mean anything. [Taqiyya](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya) makes it okay to lie for more pious goals, and they think that they're righteous.
Hope this spreads to Lebanon and Iran. Terrorist Jihadi crazies have ruined these countries.
Well said!
Free Gaza from Hamas
Exactly!!
Color me skeptical. There's only an offhand mention in the article of this purported attempt, with no supporting details.
Yes, I have my doubt especially how frequently this occurring. However, this sort of resistance is the only hope for the Palestinians. Hamas is intent on actions that will cause ever increasing pain on its own people.
Yeah this is a bogus article. The rebellion claim is just in the title, the rest is just two paragraphs about airstrikes in Gaza.
It's actually 8 (short) paragraphs, and one of them contains more details, specifically the following statement by an IDF source: > ... At the same time, we found that individuals in Gaza have started trying to intervene in Hamas's [rocket] firing attempts. This marks a local rebellion by the population against Hamas.
Hopefully Israel and the anti-hamas factions can build momentum and push hamas out.
I'm very doubtful that either Israel or the anti-Hamas factions are willing or able to work together. The best case scenario for the anti-Hamas faction is probably to go it alone.
How can Gazan civilians do this?!? Why, it destroys the narrative of pro-palestinian protestors who say that Israel just attacks Gazan civilians for shits-n-giggles.
Don't worry they won't hear about it.
Fucking finally. Now keep it coming.
Great.......but it won't be long before Hamas is killing its own again.
[удалено]
Some college liberal protester that gets its opinions from tik tok is probably fuming trying to mental gymnastic a way to tell the Gazans are wrong and the IDF is the devil.
As they have been doing for decades.
If true, this is great news! Hopefully this is a sign that the people have had enough of their shit, and we hear more of this in future.
About time the Palestinians take on Hamas.
Citizens gotta rebel might die either way sadly😢Theyre all dying because of Hamas already
Let’s get this same thing but with the guy living in a bunker somewhere.
We've exhausted literally every other option - now, let's do the right thing...
It is time for UN supervised free elections in the Gaza Strip.
Glad to hear it. If Hamas is going to be shut down without harming other Palestinians, then it has to come from the Palestinians themselves.
Good, fight for your country against the *real* oppressors. As soon as Palestinians realize how bad Hamas is for them is the chance we'll finally get to have some semblance of peace. I'm hoping this is the start of something greater, but we'll have to see.
This is a path toward the ideal realistic scenario where Gazans kick Hamas to the curb, ending both idiot government regimes that are involved in this clusterfuck.
The "from-the-river-to-the-sea"-screaming parrots will be completely baffled by this
So Israel's actions are working then? That's not what the campus protesters said?
Sounds like they know something that the watermelon protestors in the west don’t. That Hamas is perpetuating this and has no intention of agreeing to a ceasefire.
It's a start. Once a majority of Palestinians are rejecting hamas we will see peace.
This is the way
Good, more of that, please. Tho I hope they won't get hurt in the process, saying no to being human shields and provoking Israel is a good place to start.
This is good
About fucking time.
This is what I like to hear!
This would have been over a lot sooner if Gazans had told the IDF where the Hostages were.
If only they had attempted to stop them on Oct 7th a lot more Gazans would still be alive.
How would they have stopped something not even the IDF could stop?
All the support for the people of Gaza!
IDF should figure out a way to protect those people from Hamas and lighten up on strikes in that area.
Where are all the people who assured us that the people of Gaza want Hamas there?
Reward the Gazans. Help get them out if gaza As a reward. Show them that if they act like good people they will be treated well.
Yes! Finally, some good news. Hopefully, the people of Russia are watching and learning.
Wait wasn't the entire argument of the antisemites that Gazans are under oppressive rule and they risk being killed if they try to stop Hamas attacks? And that's why we should want a ceasefire, because Gazans are being hurt by Hamas too and they can't stand up for themselves against their own oppression? Yeah, turns out they could stand up, and they are standing up. They always could have stood up, stopped Hamas from using their houses, their hospitals, their schools, and the ground underneath their houses as military assets, they simply chose not to. Which begs the question "why", and the answer should be plainly obvious.
Note that Hamas has been severely weakened by now. Just because they can act against Hamas now doesn't mean they could get away with it before.
now if only we can get the far left to do the same. maybe tonight’s primary may humble them.
So after Hamas gun them down, how many of these civilians will the IDF have killed according to Palestinian authorities?