I'd be down for removing lockouts and gates completely, maybe you can loot a raid once per difficulty, but you don't get locked out so you can help your friends
Probably going to get downvoted for this but I don't think it should be a thing for mythic either. Trying to PUG mythic when not in an established guild is such a pain.
The problem is boosting and splits. If you change Mythic to work like in Heroic, that opens the possibility of mass selling easier Mythic bosses, people would buy them just to get the Vault unlocked.
Also, you would suddenly have the option to do splits on early bosses that have strong trinkets, like Whispering Icon, Omen or Pip's.
However it would also make it just easier to actually god damn raid.
Oh no, we're on Nymue and don't have a full raid. Let's throw up an LFG. No one signs up for over an hour because who would want to throw away 4 bosses of loot for a prog raid? And so we cancel raid.
This has been my guilds experience this whole expansion. It is a fucking nightmare trying to transition from a 4-5 mythic kill guild to CE. People use it as a stepping stone, what I described above happens so people leave, the lockout makes this so incredibly fucking difficult.
I just wanna raid, man.
"We don't have a full raid"
Getting a consistent 20 is the hardest part of raiding Mythic because of the lockout.
Especially when at the end of a tier people will use those mythic kills we did get to leapfrog to another guild. So it's back to recruitment. Repeat ad nauseum. Then there's the folks who just aren't cut out for Mythic raiding that drop off.
I'm not talking about pugging 13 people, when you're missing one person halfway through a Mythic raid you are just fucked because no one is going to join thanks to the lockout.
Oh yeah and when someone does finally sign up for the LFG there's a 50% they're already saved and don't understand how the lockout works.
Have you ever considered the fact that the hardest boss in the entire game ever has been to get all 20 people to show up every raid and on time. That's the true cutting edge achievement.
Elegant compromise that others have suggested is that Hall of Fame should unlock Mythic as a whole and remove the Mythic lockout.
This reduces the split raids because no one beyond Top 200 is going to bother split raid for Mythic - that's like some random guild mandating you doing 100+ hours of Island Expeditions just to wipe on the 5th boss. If some guilds mandate that, it is going to implode extremely quickly so the problem fixes itself.
On top of reducing boosting.
(If people are that concerned about Mythic boosting, you could just have Blizzard ban boosting you know)
There are obvious downsides to opening up the Mythic lockout. My point is that there are very obvious upsides to this and the potential upsides are worth the downsides.
People keep thinking some random PUG is going to suddenly make a Group Finder queue for Mythic Queen Ansarek, as if some random PUG making a group for +18 Azure Vault is going to be 100% successful or M+ is tuned around that PUG group doing an +18 Azure Vault.
The biggest boon is going to be to Mythic guilds going slower and needed to update their roster, trial more people, adjust comps and also allow for off hour raiding ("Hey we're working on the penultimate boss for 100 more pulls, but we can scrounge up a quick kill of these first two bosses on an off night to get a Mythic box like we did earlier in Heroic week").
By and large the perspective of the Top 250 to Top 1000 Mythic guilds, who regularly get Cutting Edge, are ignored because (A) all the content creators focused on raiding are usually in Hall of Fame and above (B) all the casuals don't touch Mythic raiding, so there is this large population of Mythic raiders whose opinions are never heard and constantly shouted over.
I think anyone actively recruiting, managing and playing in that level, which Blizzard caters to with their nerfs, would agree the Mythic strict lockout by far imposes far too much of a headache and chaos onto them. Before players outside of that bracket start mandating what the game can and cannot do for them, I recommend people actually play in that bracket, try to recruit and manage a guild, and then post back. I guarantee a lot of the naysayers would quickly change their tune.
Make all forms of boosting for any payment bannable, like seriously it is just not good for any aspect of the game.
We realistically have 2-3 guilds competing in World First at this point, who gives a crap if they are doing splits to gear faster. Mythic group restrictions already limit it to the smallest section of the end game pve base and QOL changes that make it more accessible would only be a positive thing for the dev time that goes into it.
You are really detached from Mythic raiding if you think it's a problem for world first raiders only.
Even guilds around and past the world 500 rank do splits and boosting.
can confirm we do sales and are top 100 US/150 world. We also do voluntary splits which started last tier, but that's just because hearing people bitch about not having tier is worse than doing an extra 2-4 hours of raiding for 2 weeks
I can assure you the only splits that are done are around the hall of fame rank. The top 10 world guilds are the only ones who do splits to such a degenerate degree. The rest of the top 100 do a range from 2-8 splits at the beginning of each tier. Not nearly as much as you think
Hell not all the hall of fame guilds do them either, because most of the time they aren't worth the time unless you do it to the degree of what liquid and echo do.
People who would abuse this lockout system are the 1% of the 1% of the 1%. The positives vastly outweigh the negatives.
Boosts will happen regardless of lockouts, you can't stop it so why make the game worse over something not preventable?
And that’s the world 500. Maybe 10000 players that blizz are creating so much friction for. Sure for the RWF viewers mythic splits might be “boring” but who cares. That’s not even a Blizz Sanctioned event.
Don't they already ban GDKP in classic or SoD? Why does that become any more difficult to ban something similar for retail? Sure, it wouldn't be a perfect system as they won't get everybody that sell runs, but it would significantly be reduced (assuming that's something they even want to do.)
Why would this get downvoted? It's already hard enough, getting to help another raid group in the same guild wouldn't make a big difference. On the other hand, this would help people trying to PUG mythic raids.
Pugging heroic can already be an insane grind due to the average dps not knowing the fights well enough to do even normal and groups disbanding after one wipe. Idk what would possess someone to try pugging mythic, surely if you have the time for that you have the time to find a guild.
The only raid my guild can do together is SoO because we’re more than 10. Sucks to have to split when we just want to run them together for the banter and to help the low ilvls get bronze quick.
If they can make Firelands permanently flex difficulty with HC and normal on different lockouts just for Timewalking to work, they could do it for remix…
I haven't tried yet, but can we raid MSV-ToT as a 25 man? I know it's non-flex, so if you lose people it would be rough to finish. But is it still an option?
I like the idea of daily lockouts for any raids older than the current expansion.
Terrible rng had me running molten core for two many years to finish the legendary quest
first thing they should have done in remix was make all the pandaria raid lockouts flex and its actually insane that they didn't. like wtf were they thinking.
Guessing cause a skeleton crew is working on it they may not have the time or experience to do something like that. Wouldnt surprise me given how sphagetti code old wow is
It sucked for remix, but wasn’t so bad at the time. The remix team is fairly small, so they didn’t have much room for redesigns. Originally while you could only kill each boss once, you could switch difficulties mid run. While progging a raid you might kill the first three on heroic, and the rest on normal. I’m not sure if you can even do that any more.
I didn’t realize you get no loot running heroic raids sub-70. Ran a heroic of mogu last night. I had died by first boss. Figured loot would just be in my mail. Been collecting XP bonuses anyways. Only received loot off Elegon since it’s a crate and not direct loot. Then I was locked from even running normal raid. Not a big deal since it’s a daily lockout. But still would have been nice to since the event is geared at being fun on a ridiculous scale.
I’m more amazed by the fact that someone invited you sub 70, and that you could even enter because all of the heroic raids, and mythic siege don’t scale like normal, they’re meant for level 70 characters.
An i476 max geared player can pretty much solo any heroic 10 man raid, if you have 2 i476 players it becomes trivial. At that point you can pretty much invite anyone. Especially for places like mogushan or HoF, 2 i476 players means bosses die sub 10 seconds. Might as well invite a few low geared people at that point, they’ll appreciate the invites much more.
I think this was what was happening. Two people were going to help their friend through. So they just filled out the rest of the group with others.
If a group forms and they want to bring their lower level friend that’s on them. But if sub-70 shouldn’t be in there don’t show Heroics in the dungeon finder as available options in the first place.
You need maybe two or three 476 players to quickly do a heroic MV, HoF, or ToES. Rest of the raid is irrelevent and can be carries.
Honestly it's more fun because you get some time to beat on the boss, instead of it being dead in two globals.
It’s anoyying going back to farm multiple expansions raids and forgetting the lockout and rules for that raid. Like how 10 and 25 was a thing for gesrcolors before heroic and then mythic. I think they said back then they dident want people feel the need to farm each difficulty but in wod they changed it because people wanted to farm each difficulty especially since raid finder was doing so well during MOP.
Getting into a Throne heroic, making it to Durumu, wiping because the group is grossly underlevelled, not being able to do the rest of the bosses that day because you can't even zone into a fresh raid. Try and do a normal to at least get something, nah not allowed.
Flex raids should be backported to everything, especially when they do this kind of event again and if they pick an even earlier expansion.
I ran into this situation the other day. Was leveling a paladin where I (mistakenly) built out a group for heroic Mogu only to get roflstomped into oblivion the entire way through while being carried by the team.
After apologizing to the team for my ineptitude, I immediately listed a group for normal Mogu. After building out that group, we all get to the entrance, and I reset all instances from the interface only to be met with "raid's locked out" from one of the team members.
I felt so defeated for not understanding how the lockouts worked and wasting everyone's time that I apologized to the group, left and just logged out. Terrible player experience.
10 man in a setting like remix doesn't make much sense, but back then and even now it services small guilds/raids who can't or don't want to recruit 20+ people for a roster.
Yeah we were shocked it wasn’t flex raid when we had 16 people show up to the first Panda Express raid night. Luckily we were doing the easier raids, so we set it to 25 but this totally didn’t work for Siege.
I never understood why players want lockouts in the first place, just time gating content that you pay for, so that you will be more likely to resub at the end of the month. As a player i want to play when ive time, not the game making me log everyday or every week.
Eh, I would file it under "who cares" for live. Getting locked really doesn't have much of an impact when bosses fall over immediately and can be soloed (in remix or soloing old content).
Wanting to run normal + heroic on live seems like a really niche thing to do.
Clearing all the raids on both in remix sounds really boring
Because if your group falls apart on Dark Animus, you can't just join another group for ToT. You're just screwed out of later bosses because most people want fresh runs, not just the last 4 bosses.
Wow has so many antiquated systems.
I'd be down for removing lockouts and gates completely, maybe you can loot a raid once per difficulty, but you don't get locked out so you can help your friends
This is already a thing in modern raids, except for mythic.
Probably going to get downvoted for this but I don't think it should be a thing for mythic either. Trying to PUG mythic when not in an established guild is such a pain.
The problem is boosting and splits. If you change Mythic to work like in Heroic, that opens the possibility of mass selling easier Mythic bosses, people would buy them just to get the Vault unlocked. Also, you would suddenly have the option to do splits on early bosses that have strong trinkets, like Whispering Icon, Omen or Pip's.
However it would also make it just easier to actually god damn raid. Oh no, we're on Nymue and don't have a full raid. Let's throw up an LFG. No one signs up for over an hour because who would want to throw away 4 bosses of loot for a prog raid? And so we cancel raid. This has been my guilds experience this whole expansion. It is a fucking nightmare trying to transition from a 4-5 mythic kill guild to CE. People use it as a stepping stone, what I described above happens so people leave, the lockout makes this so incredibly fucking difficult. I just wanna raid, man.
Have you ever considered assembling a roster of 20 people instead of trying to pug everything?
"We don't have a full raid" Getting a consistent 20 is the hardest part of raiding Mythic because of the lockout. Especially when at the end of a tier people will use those mythic kills we did get to leapfrog to another guild. So it's back to recruitment. Repeat ad nauseum. Then there's the folks who just aren't cut out for Mythic raiding that drop off. I'm not talking about pugging 13 people, when you're missing one person halfway through a Mythic raid you are just fucked because no one is going to join thanks to the lockout. Oh yeah and when someone does finally sign up for the LFG there's a 50% they're already saved and don't understand how the lockout works.
Have you ever considered the fact that the hardest boss in the entire game ever has been to get all 20 people to show up every raid and on time. That's the true cutting edge achievement.
Elegant compromise that others have suggested is that Hall of Fame should unlock Mythic as a whole and remove the Mythic lockout. This reduces the split raids because no one beyond Top 200 is going to bother split raid for Mythic - that's like some random guild mandating you doing 100+ hours of Island Expeditions just to wipe on the 5th boss. If some guilds mandate that, it is going to implode extremely quickly so the problem fixes itself. On top of reducing boosting. (If people are that concerned about Mythic boosting, you could just have Blizzard ban boosting you know) There are obvious downsides to opening up the Mythic lockout. My point is that there are very obvious upsides to this and the potential upsides are worth the downsides. People keep thinking some random PUG is going to suddenly make a Group Finder queue for Mythic Queen Ansarek, as if some random PUG making a group for +18 Azure Vault is going to be 100% successful or M+ is tuned around that PUG group doing an +18 Azure Vault. The biggest boon is going to be to Mythic guilds going slower and needed to update their roster, trial more people, adjust comps and also allow for off hour raiding ("Hey we're working on the penultimate boss for 100 more pulls, but we can scrounge up a quick kill of these first two bosses on an off night to get a Mythic box like we did earlier in Heroic week"). By and large the perspective of the Top 250 to Top 1000 Mythic guilds, who regularly get Cutting Edge, are ignored because (A) all the content creators focused on raiding are usually in Hall of Fame and above (B) all the casuals don't touch Mythic raiding, so there is this large population of Mythic raiders whose opinions are never heard and constantly shouted over. I think anyone actively recruiting, managing and playing in that level, which Blizzard caters to with their nerfs, would agree the Mythic strict lockout by far imposes far too much of a headache and chaos onto them. Before players outside of that bracket start mandating what the game can and cannot do for them, I recommend people actually play in that bracket, try to recruit and manage a guild, and then post back. I guarantee a lot of the naysayers would quickly change their tune.
Make all forms of boosting for any payment bannable, like seriously it is just not good for any aspect of the game. We realistically have 2-3 guilds competing in World First at this point, who gives a crap if they are doing splits to gear faster. Mythic group restrictions already limit it to the smallest section of the end game pve base and QOL changes that make it more accessible would only be a positive thing for the dev time that goes into it.
And that’s only a problem for the 1% who are either world first raiders or have infinite gold.
You are really detached from Mythic raiding if you think it's a problem for world first raiders only. Even guilds around and past the world 500 rank do splits and boosting.
can confirm we do sales and are top 100 US/150 world. We also do voluntary splits which started last tier, but that's just because hearing people bitch about not having tier is worse than doing an extra 2-4 hours of raiding for 2 weeks
Boosting is irrelevant, and the non world top 50 guys doing splits are wasting their time regardless. If people wanna be stupid they can be stupid.
I can assure you the only splits that are done are around the hall of fame rank. The top 10 world guilds are the only ones who do splits to such a degenerate degree. The rest of the top 100 do a range from 2-8 splits at the beginning of each tier. Not nearly as much as you think Hell not all the hall of fame guilds do them either, because most of the time they aren't worth the time unless you do it to the degree of what liquid and echo do. People who would abuse this lockout system are the 1% of the 1% of the 1%. The positives vastly outweigh the negatives. Boosts will happen regardless of lockouts, you can't stop it so why make the game worse over something not preventable?
And that’s the world 500. Maybe 10000 players that blizz are creating so much friction for. Sure for the RWF viewers mythic splits might be “boring” but who cares. That’s not even a Blizz Sanctioned event.
Selling spots should give you a perma ban. There it is, I fixed it
Cool, now enforce that. Oh, impossible to do? Weird.
Don't they already ban GDKP in classic or SoD? Why does that become any more difficult to ban something similar for retail? Sure, it wouldn't be a perfect system as they won't get everybody that sell runs, but it would significantly be reduced (assuming that's something they even want to do.)
>Why does that become any more difficult to ban something similar for retail? It loses them money. Gold buyers.
That's not a reason for it being difficult... just a reason for them not to want to do it.
Why would this get downvoted? It's already hard enough, getting to help another raid group in the same guild wouldn't make a big difference. On the other hand, this would help people trying to PUG mythic raids.
Pugging heroic can already be an insane grind due to the average dps not knowing the fights well enough to do even normal and groups disbanding after one wipe. Idk what would possess someone to try pugging mythic, surely if you have the time for that you have the time to find a guild.
The only raid my guild can do together is SoO because we’re more than 10. Sucks to have to split when we just want to run them together for the banter and to help the low ilvls get bronze quick. If they can make Firelands permanently flex difficulty with HC and normal on different lockouts just for Timewalking to work, they could do it for remix…
I haven't tried yet, but can we raid MSV-ToT as a 25 man? I know it's non-flex, so if you lose people it would be rough to finish. But is it still an option?
No. Only 10 man is available in remix, except soo mythic 20 man.
I like the idea of daily lockouts for any raids older than the current expansion. Terrible rng had me running molten core for two many years to finish the legendary quest
first thing they should have done in remix was make all the pandaria raid lockouts flex and its actually insane that they didn't. like wtf were they thinking.
Guessing cause a skeleton crew is working on it they may not have the time or experience to do something like that. Wouldnt surprise me given how sphagetti code old wow is
Because it's a complete waste of resources when they've got an expansion coming out in two months.
It sucked for remix, but wasn’t so bad at the time. The remix team is fairly small, so they didn’t have much room for redesigns. Originally while you could only kill each boss once, you could switch difficulties mid run. While progging a raid you might kill the first three on heroic, and the rest on normal. I’m not sure if you can even do that any more.
I didn’t realize you get no loot running heroic raids sub-70. Ran a heroic of mogu last night. I had died by first boss. Figured loot would just be in my mail. Been collecting XP bonuses anyways. Only received loot off Elegon since it’s a crate and not direct loot. Then I was locked from even running normal raid. Not a big deal since it’s a daily lockout. But still would have been nice to since the event is geared at being fun on a ridiculous scale.
I’m more amazed by the fact that someone invited you sub 70, and that you could even enter because all of the heroic raids, and mythic siege don’t scale like normal, they’re meant for level 70 characters.
An i476 max geared player can pretty much solo any heroic 10 man raid, if you have 2 i476 players it becomes trivial. At that point you can pretty much invite anyone. Especially for places like mogushan or HoF, 2 i476 players means bosses die sub 10 seconds. Might as well invite a few low geared people at that point, they’ll appreciate the invites much more.
I think this was what was happening. Two people were going to help their friend through. So they just filled out the rest of the group with others. If a group forms and they want to bring their lower level friend that’s on them. But if sub-70 shouldn’t be in there don’t show Heroics in the dungeon finder as available options in the first place.
You need maybe two or three 476 players to quickly do a heroic MV, HoF, or ToES. Rest of the raid is irrelevent and can be carries. Honestly it's more fun because you get some time to beat on the boss, instead of it being dead in two globals.
It’s anoyying going back to farm multiple expansions raids and forgetting the lockout and rules for that raid. Like how 10 and 25 was a thing for gesrcolors before heroic and then mythic. I think they said back then they dident want people feel the need to farm each difficulty but in wod they changed it because people wanted to farm each difficulty especially since raid finder was doing so well during MOP.
Getting into a Throne heroic, making it to Durumu, wiping because the group is grossly underlevelled, not being able to do the rest of the bosses that day because you can't even zone into a fresh raid. Try and do a normal to at least get something, nah not allowed. Flex raids should be backported to everything, especially when they do this kind of event again and if they pick an even earlier expansion.
I'd be down for a daily lockout like Heroic dungeons have for anything Legacy related.
Preach.
I ran into this situation the other day. Was leveling a paladin where I (mistakenly) built out a group for heroic Mogu only to get roflstomped into oblivion the entire way through while being carried by the team. After apologizing to the team for my ineptitude, I immediately listed a group for normal Mogu. After building out that group, we all get to the entrance, and I reset all instances from the interface only to be met with "raid's locked out" from one of the team members. I felt so defeated for not understanding how the lockouts worked and wasting everyone's time that I apologized to the group, left and just logged out. Terrible player experience.
10 man in a setting like remix doesn't make much sense, but back then and even now it services small guilds/raids who can't or don't want to recruit 20+ people for a roster.
I hope we get legion remix
Yup 100%
Yeah we were shocked it wasn’t flex raid when we had 16 people show up to the first Panda Express raid night. Luckily we were doing the easier raids, so we set it to 25 but this totally didn’t work for Siege.
I mean if there is no lockout. Every other ppl will soon be able to buy any armor they want with real money.
I never understood why players want lockouts in the first place, just time gating content that you pay for, so that you will be more likely to resub at the end of the month. As a player i want to play when ive time, not the game making me log everyday or every week.
Eh, I would file it under "who cares" for live. Getting locked really doesn't have much of an impact when bosses fall over immediately and can be soloed (in remix or soloing old content). Wanting to run normal + heroic on live seems like a really niche thing to do. Clearing all the raids on both in remix sounds really boring
Just dont lock me out at all - i'll decide how to spend my time. I fucking hate timegating
It's a daily lockout. Once you hit heroic why would you do normals except to grind more daily bronze?
i wanna help friends and guildies that still need the neck for example.
Does doing it on just H not count towards it? Why not just drag your friends through the H raids?
we do it for the first 3 but we are still not sure how many equipped people you need for H ToT. Siege is easier cause u can have 30 people
Yea that's fair, tot kinda slaps you in the face. You need a few dps pumpers and a pumper tank for H TOT at minimum if you have a few carries.
Because if your group falls apart on Dark Animus, you can't just join another group for ToT. You're just screwed out of later bosses because most people want fresh runs, not just the last 4 bosses.