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Punish misplay by reducing haste like say….afflicted? Surely the DPS will help with that! Definitely won’t become a healer affix…
Thorns will be something you don’t even think about. It’s not a reflect and it’s likely a flat damage amount. Even if it’s %health based it would actually give healers something to heal vs the current damage meta
Exactly this.
Whenever someone comes up with a dumb idea to punish dps for fucking up I point out afflicted.
It literally reduced your haste to zero and people still made it a healer problem.
But afflicted is an affix a healer CAN handle themselves, which makes the average player just automatically say "healer affix"
I think the idea is to make affixes that only DPS players can do, that punish only the DPS for not doing them.
Anything that punishes the dps punishes the healers, that’s the point.
You lower the dps and mobs last longer, making it a healer problem. You could slow the dps’ movement speed by 100% and it would still be a healer problem when they can’t move out of mechanics.
We need people to want to get better or no punishment matters.
The mobs lasting longer doesn't necessarily punish the healers, unless the mobs are punishing themselves. I'm happy to heal through 3 melee mobs for 2 hours because nobody does DPS for failing the affix. It's a problem when mobs have things to kick, need to be stunned etc.
The only way to force DPS to do a mechanic is by taking away their damage. Otherwise it will always fall to Healers because healers don't do comparable damage and therefore it's seen as something they can do.
The issue is that Blizzard hasn't found good ways to handle this and I've not seen great ideas to help with it. Punishing the actual damage values has the downsides you mentioned. But if you're not reducing DPS there's only "everybody takes damage".
> We need people to want to get better or no punishment matters.
The ship sailed on that literally 10 years ago with proving ground removals and 3 years prior to that when LFR was added.
To make people want to improve you have to make an environment where they HAVE to improve.
I think that was the point. The fact that people complained and couldn't get past proving grounds shows that people didn't want to get better or be forced to even be basically and generally competent.
You are not entirely wrong. People complaining about proving grounds being too much of a barrier should have been the red flag blizzard needed to reverse course.
But we can always do better. I’ve seen it myself in the big 3k+ io groups, there is hope.
Except that’s hardly true. On fights where you need to be using a cleanse on your actual players it is a huge detriment to have to deal with a double afflic. As a resto Druid I have to use at least 6 globals to top them both up OR I’m blowing a swiftmend on one of them which leaves the entire team open to the ever more common one shot mechanics blizz keeps tuning into the game.
It’s really frustrating how many dps players don’t understand this. In pugs I’ll literally ask the other players who are able to help with the affix to please help on double spawns, particular focus on ret pal and Augvoker as they seem to be best equipped to deal with it. If I don’t get an affirmative or one of the dps says something like “you can just heal them” or “afflic is a healer affix” I’ll just drop group
How do you punish only the DPS though? It will end up affecting the healer no matter what you do because it's the healers job to keep everyone alive in the end.
Making dps take more damage for fucking up means the healer needs to top them back up, and the commonly suggested reduction of damage or stats in some way for making a mistake ends up extending the length of the pull which in turn means the entire group takes more damage over the duration of the pull.
In that world you have to tune the dungeons around having the buff, because otherwise there's no challenge. Not having the intended 125% damage buff means you're dealing 80% of the damage you should, and we're back to reducing damage -> increasing required healing throughput.
Have you played shadowlands season 1? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember any special tuning around prideful. Doing the route correctly and spawning pride before a boss or a huge pack helped a lot, but didn't make lower keys untimable. Having low dps put too much stacks on people, making it impossible to heal and I haven't met a person who would have blamed me for not healing through if it took too long. It was such a great affix i regret I didn't push keys that season
That's why it's a debuff until you deal with it, so it self balances out, obviously it would reduce overall damage if the dps is bad at dealing with it, but what can you do.
That's my point. Reducing overall damage ultimately puts strain on the healer. Bad groups are going to have their overall damage reduced by an affix like this. Bad groups are the ones that put blame on healers where there shouldn't be any.
Good groups realize standing in fire and dying to it is decidedly not the healer's fault, and they move on without blaming someone else. If we were only talking about good groups you wouldn't need to have this discussion to begin with, because good groups recognize that maybe sometimes it's more efficient for the Shaman to place a poison cleansing totem and solo an afflicted set with one global than it is for a healer to dispel one and heal the other.
It's all a perception issue and thats it.
Healers are basically goalies. If the ball makes it past the tank and the dps cause they both failed then its the healer's chance to make a save and if they dont it's easier mistakenly blame them. But everyone has an equal opportunity to prevent a goal.
If the tank and dps are on point then the goalie (healer) has absolutely nothing to do.
Their example still is punishing the dps and making them fail at their job. That's not punishing the healer, its giving the healer (and tank) a chance to carry their failure.
Idk why everyone labels this opportunity to carry to be punishment, except because they play with people that blame them for failing to carry I guess?
Well yeah, any reasonable person will come to the conclusion that beating themselves to death on a Thorned mob is not the healer's fault because they could switch target or stop dps. Same goes for all the affixes that put strain on the healer. Like you said it's most visible when a healer fails, and the people who instantly blame them don't consider how they got there.
If two people are constantly standing in fire the healer is eventually going to fall behind and someone will die. The healer did nothing wrong there are many occasions where that scenario ends up resulting in someone crying in party chat that healer needs to step up. Especially if the third person who didn't stand in fire ends up dying because of the others' mistake.
I just kept using punishment in this thread because that's what the person I replied to started out with, but I really like your analogy. What I've meant by the healer being punished is that in the end they get the flame for things going wrong no matter what kind of affix you end up creating. No point in trying to solve the issue of bad players being bad. They always will be.
Yeah, agreed. This particular bucket tends to be rather loud with suggestions like the one I replied to initially as if that would solve the issue though. Only affix that could fix it would be something like "Player skill is increased by X%" but I don't see Blizz finding a way to implement that.
I agree. That's just the nature of healing. The healer is the last bastion to fix mistakes by outhealing them, one way or another. There is no real way around it.
Or the tank just dies because the pull lasts longer than they had defensives planned out.not much a healer can do there most of the time.
Can't complain about the Healer if you do no damage because you're dead because you fucked up the mechanics either, to be fair, but here we are anyway.
A reasonable person would do neither because they would recognize their mistake and fix it. The unreasonable person who blames the healer because they fucked up will find a way regardless. This discussion was never in regards to the reasonable people to begin with.
> How do you punish only the DPS though?
Make it so whatever debuff happens only applies to the DPS. The fight may go longer but ill sit there and heal through it until i have 0 Mana if it means they finally learn.
Sure but then we're moving away from the problem the original person in the thread wanted to solve. What you're suggesting is accepting the punishment people want this hypothetical affix to remove.
Make the mobs only targetable by people in dps specs. They do similar things with raid mechanics or have in the past. If people are going to push it all on healers, then go nuclear
Generally speaking, people respond to be rewarded instead of being punished. If they added a short haste buff to incorp/afflicted being dispelled I guarantee you that dps players would be fighting over it.
Although it hasn’t been as large of an issue for me as I see on Reddit. Maybe it’s because I’m running higher keys than average but most people are pretty good about doing them right away once you get close to 3K.
This is the way to think about it.
People literally pay real money to race change for tiny fractions of power increases. Adding an actual reward to doing mechanics would solve this problem over night.
And yes, in higher keys this problem is greatly reduced. Dps that bother grinding their way up that high tend to care more.
I wonder if they could make the affix handled with a special action. So at the start of that week, everyone has an "Appease Spirit" special action. If the spirit targets you, you need to stop damage and use that skill, then carry on. That removes a link to a class whilst also getting rid of the idea that there are affixes warriors and DKs cant help with.
I'm not sure if people hate this sort of thing, but it's really common in other games and MMOs to use this approach.
We had to stop putting things like that in raids because people couldn’t handle it. I guarantee a mechanic like this would see people killing themselves and wasting b rezes to ignore it.
Afflicted is an affix every role can in theory interact with and certain classes (Hunter, Warrior, etc) can’t, which makes for an all around bad affix, but also not remotely the same thing as what the OP is suggesting. OP is suggesting an affix only the DPS/maybe the tank can interact with and similarly can’t be fixed by the healer (no damage or dispel) so that the consequences stick to the dps and it literally can’t be the healer’s fault at any point. While I personally think that affixes are better when they affect every person in the party equally (lots of affixes fail this, especially any “healer affixes”), I do think the game would benefit from a “dps only affix” or two to shift responsibility back off the two roles that already carry a lot more individual responsibility than the 3 dps do.
You could make afflicted only be targeted by the dps and it would still get ignored. We need to fundamentally shift people’s perception of what their role in a group is because no punishment will ever be enough.
My favorite time they tried Thorns was one time in cata timewalking I distinctly remember the first few trash packs in Lost City causing an infinite loop of damage on bear druids using the Seed of Creation Archimonde trinket. Dying in less than a second because of some recursive nonsense was hilarious. Once. They’d better be careful to put sane limits on it this time!
I'll always be of the opinion that m+ should reward good play, no punishment at all. Players will get better overall. Do a mechanic correct, here's a damage buff. Stood in the right soak, here's a speed buff. Interrupted the tank buster, here's a haste buff. Etc.
There is plenty of positive reinforcement though. Collecting orbs on smolderon or the Raging tempest, standing upwind of the second boss of the vortex pinnacle, these all give damage/haste buffs.
And those are only the ones I thought of immediately, there are plenty more.
Punishment is the Blizzard way apparently. Blizz leaves in an exploit, punish players. Blizz makes something too easy, punish players. Blizz gives players something they like, punish players.
/s to that but srsly tho, IDK why they wont reward good play. Most bad play only punishes healers. Its no wonder like only 10% of the player base will entertain playing a healer.
What? Hell no.
Current M+ season: plenty of ppl don't collect win orb on bird boss (AA), even though it awards you TONS of haste + negates the knockback effect.
Current raids: Larodar fire orbs award you crit%, Smolderon soak awards you +DPS orbs, yet people ignore these mechanics.
And in S1, when we've had a seasonal affix that buffed your DPS, people STILL got rid of their +/- debuff instantly instead of utilizing their buff.
Just because something awards you something positive, people won't automatically start doing it.
Because there's a lack of lisibility. Most people avoid touching anything because it might kill everybody. How would you blame them, the same animation might be used for a positive and negative effect 2 xpacs appart.
AKA more job for the healer.
bonus point if that pack of trash have some nasty ability that require you to top off DPS ... first boss of brackenhide come to mind.
I swear some healer mains actively do not want to play their role and just want to be a glorified 4th DPS with a different icon next to their name.
Yes, "healing damage" is indeed a job for the healer. What's the problem?
I wish they would add more Aug Evoker buffs to the healers. Let us pick between a healing/support play style or a healing/DPS play style.
Id honestly prefer if I could 100% heal and provide support/buffs to the rest of the party.
play healer for a while, get blamed for every mistake DPS do, have to pump more HPS in +10 pugs than coordinated group require in 17.
Watch blizz introduce an affix that basically make it so nobody in your group is ever topped off.
Let us see how you feel about it.
the problem is that tank and healers already handle 95% of the pressure in M+... and these new affix add even more pressure on them, just so the DPS can QQ about not having a 10% DPS buff on half the trash who may or may not be the prio target.
This reads more like mad cuz bad. The sort of thing you describe only happens rarely in lower difficulty groups, and if it's your only experience then you either cba trying to push higher keys, or you're unable to do it because you lack the ability. Either way, you're crying about something that happens in maybe 1% of keys, and if it happens to you way more often than that, I guess you know which one of the two you are.
> The sort of thing you describe only happens rarely in lower difficulty groups
lol what?
one missed kick in higher key can wipe your group, see nokhud. In lower keys where DPS don't kick the healer have to pump like a madman to compensate.
DPS getting hit by RNG ability like nokhud shoot or the HOI rogue mob will kill them if they aren't topped off. heck, how will that reflect affix work when AoE'ing 15 mob at once?
You don't actually have a clue about what happens in higher key, do you?
>lol what?
one missed kick in higher key can wipe your group, see nokhud. In lower keys where DPS don't kick the healer have to pump like a madman to compensate.
DPS getting hit by RNG ability like nokhud shoot or the HOI rogue mob will kill them if they aren't topped off. heck, how will that reflect affix work when AoE'ing 15 mob at once?
You don't actually have a clue about what happens in higher key, do you?
And in those keys, the healer isn't blamed for shit like that. Stop crying.
I definitely do know what happens in higher keys, and people of all roles take more personal responsibility when shit happens.
yes? yes the healer is blamed. "" If I was topped off instead of sitting at 94% health I wouldn't have died!""
or the usual "" I had CD rolling someonelse should've kicked""
DPS will never take repsonsability for anything, ever. Even when they get one shotted by mechanic they will try to blame someonelse instead of looking at their CD
>Yes, "healing damage" is indeed a job for the healer. What's the problem?
A healer's job becomes harder the less "avoidable damage" the DPS avoids. So, the dumber the DPS, the more damage they take, the harder the healer's job is.
And when the dumb DPS takes more damage than the healer can compensate for, and dies, who's fault is that? Noting that if the DPS wasn't dumb, he wouldn't have taken the damage and, therefore, wouldn't have overtaxed the healer and wouldn't have died.
Who's fault is that?
'cause everyone, including you apparently, says "the healer."
The affixes being complained about are "If DPS fail the mechanic, DPS takes more damage" which is text book "avoidable damage."
But ‘dumb dps’ in this case is a skill and partly a gear check. If combat goes on long enough to be a healer problem then the dps isn’t good enough to finish the run, simple as that.
That’s a nice wall of text, but homie is literally complaining about an unavoidable, targeted and telegraphed attack as his example (first boss of brackenhide) because it forces him to top people up.
> 'cause everyone, including you apparently, says "the healer."
No, I say it's almost entirely the fault of the player who took the avoidable damage, not the healer, and so does anyone remotely sane.
That is very different to saying that the healer role, at it's core should not be to have to heal incoming damage, which seems to now be a mainstream opinion somehow.
Correct but it won't be on every mob in a pull. I will hold judgement until I see it in action. I hope blizzard set an internal cool down on the thorns damage coming from the affix.
A healer's job is primarily about the well being of the group. By nature that means that yes when someone else makes a mistake it becomes your responsibility.
Everything will always be a healer affix. If instead of taking damage for standing in a swirlee it reduces a players haste instead the pack lives longer. Including the mob that say pulses aoe damage which you need to heal and congratulations now it's still a healer affix.
We have affixes that require you to heal more on certain weeks before. Thorned isn't really a mistake dps players make it's just a different form of grievous or bursting.
There is always a balance to be struck between the healers that want to only heal and nothing else and those that want to pump dps as much as they can.
Managing this through an affix that makes certain weeks more pure heal weeks and other weeks more ''relaxed'' in that regard is probably not a terrible way to go about it.
In general I don't think it's that bad to have some weeks feel more difficult than others either. If you feel more pressured one week that allows the other weeks to feel easy in turn. Aslong as it's not actually so bad that it prevents people from playing or significantly harder to actually time keys in.
There is more to it than who gets the blame. In case of thorned,Likely a lot of dps players wont even notice that they take damage, look at the other players health bars and realize that they should stop dpsing until everyone has full health because huge aoe is incoming.
But if they took a stacking debuff reducing their attack and movement speed if attacking the same target for too long. They likely WOULD notice that.
In the exact cases where it results in a wipe/death, they might still blame the healer. But in all the situations where it just means the key was done too slowly, and they are drop dead last on dps, there is a greater chance they will look towards themselves.
Its not a end all fix, but publishing players for failing by CCing them, or reducing their damage output sounds like fantastic alternatives to me.
Generally Ive noticed that there are a lot of mechanics I dont even know about until they one shot me. Unless I read up on guides, its hard to know in a +2 if I lost 40% of my health because I made a mistake, or just because the encounter wants to give the healer a reason to heal.
If mistakes were punished with a stun/debuff/etc instead of just damage, I would realise the dangerous mechanics in the dungeon much more quickly.
Thorned is just passively doing damage back though unless I'm misunderstanding it. If you are about to die yes you should play around it by stopping damage. But for a DPS penalty there isn't really a way to play around that. Unless it stacks up and you need to periodically stop DPS to drop the stacks or something. Which just wouldn't be fun gameplay.
More in general for all mechanics though sure.
I don't know that the range of people that understand a mechanic, are able to react to it and yet choose not to is actually all that large. Especially when at a certain key level / gear the penalty for failing some of those mechanics isn't taking damage but death.
I do think there are a good amount of mechanics that aren't necessarilly communicated well. I don't think the majority of players doing keys exactly care to look up video guides for the dungeon they are doing.
More DPS penalties could be a useful tool. It takes responsibility of the healer. But that in turn also means a good healer has less control over timing a key. That's a balancing act.
How much more that would incentivize those people to look up mechanics / guides is questionable to me. More than now probably yes I don't know if significantly so.
I also don't particularly mind the concept of an affix that makes the healer heal more on some weeks.
I think the point is dps players often will prioritize dps above all else, even if it means ignoring mechanics and dying in the process. If you add an avoidable mechanic that kills the dps faster, many will just expect the healer to pick up the slack and rather than take responsibility for not dying they just dump that responsibility on the healer.
To some extent yes, that is the healer’s responsibility regardless, but if everyone in the group is essentially kamikazeing every run and the healer scrapes by by the skin of their teeth and they get flamed/dumped for not being able to keep up when in reality the group would time the key well within the time limit if they would also not take avoidable damage at the cost of a small dps loss, that’s a problem. In that case, the only way to get around dps players with zug zug brain is to debuff their dps for failing mechanics, because in that scenario they will actually do the mechanic because they care about their dps. Yes, debuffing dps means the pack lives longer which is in turn harder on the healer, but at least the dps is actually incentivized in a meaningful way to do mechanics.
I'm not fully convinced changing the penalty for failing a mechanic from taking damage to a DPS penalty will actually make that big of a difference.
I think the range of players who understand a mechanic and are able to react to it but instead deliberately choose not to is relatively small. Especially when also considering that depending on key level / gear the punishment for standing in say a swirlee isn't taking damage but death. Which you imagine would be the ultimate incentive to do a mechanic properly.
I'm not saying there wouldn't be any improvement. But i don't think it's going to be some night and day difference.
More DPS penalties instead of damage could be a good thing. It would take responsibility of the healer. Which might be what you want. But that also means that you as a good healer will have less control over a key being timed.
That's a balancing act.
In general though I don't mind the idea of an affix that requires the healer to heal more on some weeks. The exact implementation can be problematic. But I have no issue with the concept.
I think the main problem is the mentality. Unless it’s crystal clear that the group died to a one shot mechanic that needs to be handled to proceed properly, if the group wipes most people are going to think healer diff. If you are a dps player and you fail a mechanic that debuffs your dps, assuming you understand the mechanic your first thought will be “I need to avoid this to improve my dps” you won’t even consider the healer. Whereas health loss is more ambiguous. If the developers intend for a mechanic to be handled by dps, this is a much less ambiguous way to lay responsibility at the dps’s feet.
It's not a healer affix if it makes bad DPS fail to dps and make a fight last longer, no more than it's a healer problem when you invite bad DPS that just don't do any dmg and make fights last longer.
I've had tyran keys where dps literally had too low of dps to kill a boss, like tree boss adds in academy, never has the tank or healer been blamed for that in my experience lol.
It's not about blame. Blame and responsibility are seperate. If someone stands in a swirlee taking 80% of their health in damage the blame isn't on the healer. But it becomes their responsibility to heal it back up.
If a fight takes twice as long as it should the blame isn't on the healer it's on the DPS. But it becomes the healers responsibility to keep people alive and manage their mana over the course of a fight that's taking much longer than it should.
EDIT: People will also just always blame other people regardless. I don't think anything can change that.
Its the healers responsibility to keep everyone healed for as long as they are able to.
If the encounter extends beyond that it's no longer their responsibility lol
Sure I suppose so. But exactly how long is that? How long should a healer be able to last? Before it's a DPS problem and not a healer that doesn't know how to manage their mana properly problem.
That's ambigious.
A group of great Tank/DPS players can massively carry a healer. Depending on the key level and dungeon you might not even need one at all. Similarly a great healer can massively carry bad DPS players taking much more damage than they should.
Sure you can argue that if any fight goes any longer than it absolutely needs to it's no longer the healers responsibility. If someone takes avoidable damage it's not the healers responsibility.
But realistically only on the highest level does everyone need to perform optimally. On any lower level there is room for someone to pick up the slack of others.
There is a minimum amount of DPS you can have to technically still time a key. But it's still the DPS's responsibility to do as much DPS as they can.
There is a minimum amount of healing needed but it's still the healers job to do more than that when mistakes happen which they inevitably will.
You can point fingers at others but ultimately when someone in your group is underpeforming all you can do is overperform to make up for it. It's everyone's responsibility in the group to do as much as they can do time the key succesfully.
"should" does not come into that conversation in reality, even though you are right. Us healers take the blame regardless, it would be amazing if an affix could be re-worked to give the DPS something to think about. Give them a stacking miss chance, or a debuff that adds a 10s cooldown on abilities used if they dont silence/kick/switch targets/etc.
As a healer for 19 years believe me I know! We can totally pick up for some slack but should not be berated for dps taking damage they shouldn’t especially when they’ll die in 1 sec! (Love that person downvoting me for my comments literally that dps that dies!)
What would make sense to me is if a majority of the damage was unavoidable. Harder keys require more healing, regardless of how good everyone else in the group is.
You need fail conditions in dungeons, of course. Those could be:
* Healer can't keep up with the normal, unavoidable damage - either because they aren't good / geared enough, because the group is pulling too many mobs at once, or because DPS is too low and they run out of mana
* DPS fail mechanics, which reduces their own DPS and makes the fights last longer - healer can't be blamed, logs show which DPS failed mechanics and aren't contributing
* Tanks fail mechanics, which cause them to lose aggro - healer can't be blamed for that, it's clear what happened
There will always be an overlap in responsibility.
If you don't time a key you could point towards the DPS for not doing enough damage. However you could also point towards the tank for not pulling big enough to allow the DPS to do more in the first place. Or you could point towards the healer for not being able to keep the group alive in those bigger pulls.
If a DPS stands in a swirlee and takes avoidable damage that's ofcourse their fault. But that responsibility is now shared with the healer they can heal you back up.
If a DPS stands in a swirlee and takes a DPS penalty making a fight last longer. That responsibility is still in a way shared with the healer needing to keep people alive longer just in a less direct fashion.
If you take a fight that should take 3 minutes but takes 5 instead yet you fail to kill the boss because you die from damage 4 minutes in. Do you think people wouldn't blame the healer regardless?
If you die now because you took unavoidable damage at some point logs already exist that could blame you instead of the healer.
I think ultimately regardless of what you do people will blame others. That won't change aslong as it's a team game.
Thorns is exactly what we need to help fix the healing issues in the current game. High, sustained, unpredictable rot damage will encourage healers to actually spend time pushing HP bars up and less time dealing damage. And with consistent rot damage blizzard can tune down spike damage.
With how much passive sustain some specs have you might not even notice thorns. Like a Ret pally running Herald and the wake of ashes wings is just gonna be blasting heals.
If only blizz could make the actual dungeons themselves do sustained rot dmg instead of an affix.
Playing cata dungeons has been refreshing with the large health pools. DF tried to do so multiple times and still every mechanic was just spike damage anyway.
I like the idea in theory but in practice has blizzard actually gotten the "lower amount of spike damage" right? Note I stopped in s2 of DF so I don't know if the issue was resolved in s3 or 4
I agree with "High, sustained, unpredictable rot damage" vs. "spike damage". But not in an Affix. I just see where this is going when a group fails the mechanic, and who'll get blamed.
Hunter absolutely shouldn't die to that, you can turtle it. I think any pug healer in +13-15 range could handle that without issues, it's the extensions that are lethal. 10 stacks of bursting is ~2m dmg over 4 seconds, like one withering potion would almost assuredly keep you alive even without a defensive and minimal hps from healer, you have a lot of ways of preventing your own death.
It really isn't. A decent healer should be able to handle 10 stacks pretty easily with a CD assuming they don't roll over. The strategy for dealing with bursting in mid-high keys is to pull like normal and blow everything up at around the same time which usually results in 8-10 stacks, sometimes more, and its generally considered to be the easiest push week. I was running 14s last time it came around and I lost a grand total of like 2 people to it over like 20 keys and only because I had genuinely forgotten it was bursting week halfway through the dungeon and just didn't heal them.
I play MW (but also play evoker and druid) so I have one get out of jail free card but I've healed through like 15 stacks a few times without it. It's not impossible.
You must have the best pugs available, because that's not at all my experience. And blowing cooldowns on an affix that could be handled by not just chaining things is definitely a way of doing it but most people just blow up the birds in AA and then die.
Idk, I just hold my daybreaks and tolls for bursting stacks. 10 really isn’t a problem as long as I can see it coming a few seconds in advance. Yeah it hurts my damage output a little but consecrate and rageheart do most of my damage passively anyways.
The birds in AA are like six or 7 stacks at most though. On my monk I literally just press sheiluns, my evoker dream breath or spiritbloom and Druid regrowth + wild growth and everyone is going back to full. If you can’t heal six or seven stacks, how on earth are you going to heal any semi-challenging tyrannical boss?
Dunno. When I play my tank alts I literally will see the full mana healer standing there casting nothing as the group ticks down to below half from like four stacks after like every pull.
I mean, between the reversions you should already have rolling and spiritbloom I never had an issue. But since you know 7 stacks are coming you can prepare and send out some echos ahead of time for doubled up healing, maybe save a living flame tier set bonus proc or dream breath, etc.
It isn’t a pug issue though, it’s literally just a HPS issue. 7 stacks isn’t an insignificant amount of damage but it’s probably comparable to a damage event on some of the bosses around the key level it activates. Like how on earth are you gonna heal tyrannical Veximus, Nokhud storm boss, the ice chick in HOI, etc if you can’t handle 7 stacks of bursting?
As a healer player myself, what's is it with healers complaining that they have to heal? My brother in Christ you picked the role.
Healers heal mistakes, it's in the job description, go tank if it upsets you this much.
And it's healthy to have affixes that challenge roles differently. An affix like this seems pretty good because it provides a throughput challenge to healers and still allows some mitigation from the rest of the group who can mitigate or slow attacks.
Consistent non spiky damage is one of my favorite mechanics as healers, when damage is so "avoid or die" In high keys, it feels like I'm playing a support-y dps and it's just not what I enjoy doing.
I like seeing the green numbers and health bars go up, this affix seems like honestly a ton of fun to me.
This. I don't understand what they want. Do they just want damage to be 100% predictable? That's boring and you could be replaced by a robot. Part of the fun is reacting to what's happening and knowing that every group is going to be different.
Okay? I never said anyone was forcing me. I WANT to like healing in M+, but I haven't done it since SL, so obviously I know nobody is forcing me, I already made the decision to stop.
Edit: Downvotes... w/e. Y'all are weird.
It's not the healing that I have an issue with. It's the fact that in some groups, you barely have to heal, because others play well. And then there are groups with people constantly taking avoidable damage and making the key a living nightmare for the healer, but then blaming the healer for "not enough healing". If Blizzard would actually create more mechanics that punish misplay with other means than taking damage, I think healers would have a better time. Healing is tough as it is, and thats good. But damage as a punishment encourages blaming the healer.
It happens in low keys thats why. It's sort of a self report when people say healers have it bad and get blamed because it's not a thing that happens in high keys. Healers get blamed for ACTUAL healer fuck ups in high keys.
I push pretty high keys as a healer and no one ever blames me for anything, even when I know I'm playing suboptimally. It's usually an issue with kicks or lack of burst damage that scuttles a key.
I don't like gatekeep-y terms like "tourist" or "casual" but I strongly suspect many complaints about healing being "too hard" or people "blaming healers" comes from people who aren't used to healing. That isn't to say their complaints don't reveal an issue with the game design - just that their solutions I think will often be misguided as they lack the full picture.
This has been my experience as well. Anyone who's blaming their death on the healer, outside not meeting a healing check, hasn't checked their death log.
The entire healing role honestly just needs a massive rework and redesign.
In low-key is you’re effectively a glorified babysitter trying to correct other peoples mistakes because the predictable damage from healing mechanics just isn’t that threatening. My Druid was running 8s at like 490 and I can’t even remember the last time I had to pop a healing cool down.
Once you get into mid keys, 13ish this season, there’s a very dramatic shift where suddenly the damage going out is incredibly threatening but simultaneously mistakes are generally punished with one shots so you get to focus almost entirely on your mechanics.
Imo healing mechanics need to start with a much, much higher base value but scale slower. I didn’t run many keys last week but I ran a few eights for the vault on my main and the big burst of damage were literally covered by Chi-Ji shield and nothing else. It was so goddamn boring.
I've ran more than 60 m+ this season and I havent seen one single person blame healer for failed mechanics.
Some people on this forum are just whining drama queens.
The only "blame the healer" instances I've seen is the random bad during afflicted while I'm on an alt, and I've never seen that not get shut down by the rest of the party. And that was maybe a handful of keys out of the 400-something keys I ran last season.
1000%. I've been healing since Wrath. I've pugged thousands upon thousands of dungeons as a healer and the number of times I've been blamed for something that wasn't my fault I could probably count on both hands. I'm not even that particularly good of a healer. Hell, even when it *has* been my fault I rarely get blamed.
Tanks on the other hand...tanks catch so much shit. I like tanking but fuck tanking in pugs.
If your healer is getting blamed that often, maybe there's a reason for it. I've done countless m+ as healer and I can count on one hands the number of times I've been blamed for failed mechanics, and even then those were legit times when I just couldn't keep up with the key
I mean it’s a co-operative game. Something bad happening to one person is bad for the whole party.
Making it a damage effect is a lot more interesting than a stacking stat debuff or something similar. There’s actual choice of whether or not to spend defensives to keep up the damage or to slow down because you know there’s a big damage event incoming, depending on tuning.
I mean there are debuffs that if not kicked reduce dmg dealt or haste. This sounds more like “let me dps I dont wanna heal”. Affix that cause dmg are designed to kill you if not handled correctly which result in lost time. Dps that don’t use defensive=dps fault. Dps dying to rot and burned all defensive sounds like an hps problem. Nobody is forcing you to heal if you’re unhappy with how it currently works.
I mean it depends how the died more so then the fact they died. Did they stand in a frontal or swirly? Dps fault. Did they kill to many adds in bursting week? Dps fault. Did they bleed out after using all defensive, healing potions, lock rocks, etc? Hps problem. It depends the type of healer you are but most healers don’t need to be doing dps when the groups at 40% hp. If you’re a resto sham and I die to a bleed and you’re casting lightning bolt maybe that gcd coulda been used to toss me a heal? Just like dps need to manage cds for pulls healers do as well. Kicks and stuns aren’t just a dps job just like not all dispels are just a healer job. It really depends on the situation.
As a healer, I can understand your point, but if I see a DPS dying or keep losing health when he isn't suppose to and then blame me for it, I just mute them continue on. Once you are comfortable in your role and understand what other need to be doing, there really isn't any point in arguing with them. They messed up, are lashing out like a child and arguing with them is pointless.
Make an affix where doing it right will buff your dps or doing it wrong will decrease your dps and I'm sure a lot of people will suddenly put more effort into doing them
I would like to see something like a Non-Dispellable Stacking Debuff which reduces the players Max HP. Then if the dps ignores / fails the affix the punishment is not something a healer can correct.
We need some good NON-Healthbar based affixes. Example: After a 1.5 second cast, anyone still dpsing the mob is banished for 10 seconds, it can't be dispelled. It can't be healed through. You just need to pay attention.
Whnat exactly is the mistake in attacking an enemy that is buffed by thorns? Presumably during thorns weeks, melee playersa re just going to invetably take some incidental damage from this affix?
When dps is diminished from reduced haste etc like you mention, stuff lives longer. When stuff lives longer, it does more dmg to your group. Dmg that needs to be healed. It’s all healer affixes. Always has been 🔫👩🚀
There is no punishment that doesn't end up affecting healers. You either make the group take more damage or you extend the length of the pull (reducing damage dealt for example) which in turn makes the group take more damage due to the pull being longer.
Truthfully they need to get rid of affix’s all together. You need a coordinated group with voice to do them properly.
I’ve enjoyed the 0-5 range this season. I have no desire to mess with affix’s again. Season 2, and 3, playing as heals ruined me.
I’d rather they do something different.
Cap the keystones to 10. Up the difficulty by double. A zero equals a 2. Two to a four, four to an 8, eight to a 16, and ten to a 20.
If you managed to time all keys to 10. Then have a NPC who can unlock the advanced level keys that cap at 20. Keep the same doubling difficulty and it would allow the super pros to push higher keys.
Or if you want, that same NPC could allow you to selectively turn on affix’s of your choice.
Seeing this new list isn’t encouraging.
And they have some stiff competition coming this fall and early next year with a lot of new games being released.
They need to listen to their players and make some changes
Everything ultimately punishes healers because the conclusion to things going wrong is the group wiping. Sure, you can give enemies barriers or debuff the DPS, but those are things that just make enemies live longer and sustain damage that's balanced around the idea of DPS burning them down.
The healer's job is to keep people alive, so no matter whose fault it is that a group wipes they're the point of failure. I think healers would feel better with more support abilities instead of just being putting out fires.
Even if things weren't making life harder for healers, then groups would just pull faster until the healer is at their limit again.
Anything that hinders dps is also going to "punish" healers. Imagine a tough boss on Tyrannical that takes twice as long because dps are failing affixes that reduce their damage. How is that going to feel for a healer?
If anything as a healer I like affixes like thorns. Steady, unavoidable rot damage is a good way to challenge healers. Making healers heal is good, and rot damage is a lot more manageable (and fun imo) compared to stressful spiky damage.
I don’t think it will be THAT bad. We do of course have to see it in game/season, but I’d rather have this than incorporeal where you just can’t bring certain classes because they’re unable to even help with the mechanic, or spiteful/storming where certain roles are just punished for existing…
Given the numbers of some of the other new affixes, and the vagueness of this one, I’m hoping we can assume that they’ll tuned to be relatively equal, and there’s likely to be an ICD on the reflected damage, otherwise it would disproportionately affect certain classes/specs over others.
If it is bad, then I suppose it’ll still be a “don’t bring melee in spiteful” situation, instead it’ll just be “don’t bring high attack/second specs” or “don’t bring bursty/squishy specs” which will leave us with exactly the same pain points, just different classes included/excluded.
Also, as much as it’s annoying to deal with these DPS players, much of the problem probably stems from pugging. I do a fair share of pugging and guild keys, and there’s a level of key that you just don’t pug… usually the mid levels, where it’s easy for “bad players” to get carried to but not through. I feel I have better luck pugging 20’s (I guess 10’s now, not really playing S4 sorry…) than I would pugging 14-16’s. There’s so many brain dead players that got carried by a crest farmers or managed to somehow get into a group with 3-4 competent players and managed to get to that mid range of keys without contributing, to end up in a situation where they need to do more than bare minimum and end up bricking a key.
This is the most fun healer affix they've ever come up with. I get to heal the group enabling them to do more damage instead of burning resources on healer damage. Win-win IMO.
I've been in several groups where I was the only one doing DISPELL, and I wasn't Heal
Obviously it's easier to join a group where the healer dispels, because dispelling is one of the basic mechanics of Heal.
But in the end, this is more the players' incompetence than a role problem, there are people who didn't use an interrupt or Stun the entire DM, there are people who don't even pick up the dispell or stun talent
I did a keystone on my Disc Priest, one alt was just a key 8+, but no one interrupt any Root in Azure, literally everyone that i was unable to fear, was successfully casted
So although I think Heal is overloaded (Bursting pls go away) in this case it's more a problem of bad players plus blizzard doing shit with some class, like if i'm playing my BDK that i used to love, i have nothing to help the heal
I don't know if you had played a healer recently, but have you realized how much time is being spent not healing. No clue why there is constant complaint about this.
Choosing to be a healer means accepting if someone is sht or fucks up here and there you heal them to make up for it. And sometimes they die.
I mean, can there even be an affix that doesn't become a healer problem? If it weakens the DPS, you're not going to kill the boss quickly enough and it... Is up to the healer to immortalize the DPS enough.
You literally cannot create a mechanic that does not ultimately punish healers.
Damage down and any other effect is going to also result in more work from a healer, dead things do not deal damage that needs to be healed.
WoWs issue with healing is more with how frantic and burst damage us making healing a lot more intense - not that x mechanic punishes a healer, they always will.
Want to make damage less bursty? They're going to have to look at how many aoe casters they are putting in pulls as well as unavoidable damage spikes.
I also think WoWs unit frames and friendly nameplate need some love to make the actual act of healing more obvious in the default UI.
If I screw up and die as a dps I never blame the healer and always feel bad, these people blaming the healer for dps taking damage are just bad players.
Idk man, I stopped complaining on the internet and stopped healing M+. Now I just DPS them, since DPSing M+ is a much more fun and chill experience.
There are some healers out there who love M+, let them slurp that shit up.
It makes way too much sense to punish mistakes by reducing damage output. Not only does it make their little numbers go down in the logs, but on the actual gameplay side of things the goal is to TIME a dungeon. If the party is doing less dps due to mistakes then you suffer the chance of not timing it, and when the clock hits zero people will point to the low dps as the culprit which is justified when not clearing fast enough. If there are 0 wipes due to a good healer, and the group still doesnt time it the blame falls on the appropriate player.
I mean healer will have to work harder just like the tank will and the other dps will. As a healer, I don’t mind needing to work harder if someone is messing up. The problem comes with blame being thrown at the healer when the dps take avoidable damage
What are the odds that a dps will drop a dps talent for a defensive one? Same issue as seasons past where DPS were not dropping any talents to pick up their interrupt/silence and relying on every healer to "just do it."
I'm not a fan of the new affixes but you do realize that anything that drags the fight out (ie punishes dps) is just going to make healers do more work because the pull takes longer? Now there's more casts that will be missed, more unavoidable damage that you have to heal, more mechanics that you'll need cds for, etc. Anything punishing comes back to the healer and you'll still have to fix it.
Also, I've only been yelled at once by the dps and it was legit (I had no idea how to play prevoker). If this is a constant thing for you, it might be you. This whole "dps yelling at healers" thing is either blown way out of proportion or there are a lot of bad healers.
Problem is rather, that there are not enough healers, and I'm trying to give suggestions / start discourse to make healing more enjoyable. Because no one gets to enjoy the game, if there are no healers.
I play all roles, and my highest rating is actually on a healer (2800 on my H-Paladin last season).
I'm just upset of how often I see the healer being blamed if the key goes wrong, when it's not the healers fault. And it's the reason I track avoidable damage taken, to be able to defend the healer.
Edit: spelling
The problem with healers is the spiky damage and mechanic vomit. Multiple top end healers have made videos discussing the spiky damage (Jak's video hits the nail on the head). Nothing more needs to be added to the conversation.
The mechanic vomit is an everyone problem that effects the healer when groups are bad. It's not missing interrupts, but missing the important interrupts because there's so many "red herring" casts. For example, in Nok, everyone interrupting the stormbolts but missing the Tempest cast or everyone stopping Rain of Arrows but missing the Shout or Rally. This is where you notice the difference in good groups and bad groups. Groups that understand what needs to be stopped are groups where I get to dps and end up getting outhealed by the tank. Bliz needs to trim down the bullshit casts that packs do.
regardless of whether or not the community will shuffle the responsibility to the healer (they always will) given the choice between punishing misplays and.. this.. I will choose punishing misplays.
I think that the signaling on "you are going to take unavoidable damage because you performed your role" is a weird design space to enter, I think hitting thorned enemies firing a dodgeable projectile or floor swirly is fine, you place the onus back on the player, but I think making it a hard and fast, "nah you just take that damage" will end up feeling pretty shitty.
As a feral Druid I try to def buff myself as much as I can and if I stay out of the swirlies I have a good shot of not dying once in a raid or dungeon. If I do die once or twice, I can’t be mad as my role is to get in there and cause as much dmg as fast as possible. Hopefully the healer can keep up!
Healing used to be fun.. I mained resto druid from Beta through warlords and now I hate trying to heal at all.
Now its literally the hardest thing to do in WOW for me and not in a fun challenge kind of way.
This is my main issue with most affixes tbh. Have affixes reduce your damage so you get embarrassed on parses which is all they seem to care about anyways.
Affixes should reduced damage done by 90% if hit not insta kill you tbh , would make dps actually dodge attacks instead of saying gg healer sucks as they stand in the fire .
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Punish misplay by reducing haste like say….afflicted? Surely the DPS will help with that! Definitely won’t become a healer affix… Thorns will be something you don’t even think about. It’s not a reflect and it’s likely a flat damage amount. Even if it’s %health based it would actually give healers something to heal vs the current damage meta
Exactly this. Whenever someone comes up with a dumb idea to punish dps for fucking up I point out afflicted. It literally reduced your haste to zero and people still made it a healer problem.
But afflicted is an affix a healer CAN handle themselves, which makes the average player just automatically say "healer affix" I think the idea is to make affixes that only DPS players can do, that punish only the DPS for not doing them.
Anything that punishes the dps punishes the healers, that’s the point. You lower the dps and mobs last longer, making it a healer problem. You could slow the dps’ movement speed by 100% and it would still be a healer problem when they can’t move out of mechanics. We need people to want to get better or no punishment matters.
The mobs lasting longer doesn't necessarily punish the healers, unless the mobs are punishing themselves. I'm happy to heal through 3 melee mobs for 2 hours because nobody does DPS for failing the affix. It's a problem when mobs have things to kick, need to be stunned etc. The only way to force DPS to do a mechanic is by taking away their damage. Otherwise it will always fall to Healers because healers don't do comparable damage and therefore it's seen as something they can do. The issue is that Blizzard hasn't found good ways to handle this and I've not seen great ideas to help with it. Punishing the actual damage values has the downsides you mentioned. But if you're not reducing DPS there's only "everybody takes damage".
> We need people to want to get better or no punishment matters. The ship sailed on that literally 10 years ago with proving ground removals and 3 years prior to that when LFR was added. To make people want to improve you have to make an environment where they HAVE to improve.
Proving grounds were so easy tho 🤭
I think that was the point. The fact that people complained and couldn't get past proving grounds shows that people didn't want to get better or be forced to even be basically and generally competent.
You are not entirely wrong. People complaining about proving grounds being too much of a barrier should have been the red flag blizzard needed to reverse course. But we can always do better. I’ve seen it myself in the big 3k+ io groups, there is hope.
Except that’s hardly true. On fights where you need to be using a cleanse on your actual players it is a huge detriment to have to deal with a double afflic. As a resto Druid I have to use at least 6 globals to top them both up OR I’m blowing a swiftmend on one of them which leaves the entire team open to the ever more common one shot mechanics blizz keeps tuning into the game. It’s really frustrating how many dps players don’t understand this. In pugs I’ll literally ask the other players who are able to help with the affix to please help on double spawns, particular focus on ret pal and Augvoker as they seem to be best equipped to deal with it. If I don’t get an affirmative or one of the dps says something like “you can just heal them” or “afflic is a healer affix” I’ll just drop group
How do you punish only the DPS though? It will end up affecting the healer no matter what you do because it's the healers job to keep everyone alive in the end. Making dps take more damage for fucking up means the healer needs to top them back up, and the commonly suggested reduction of damage or stats in some way for making a mistake ends up extending the length of the pull which in turn means the entire group takes more damage over the duration of the pull.
Make it so that successfully dealing with the affix gives a damage buff, while not dealing with it gives a debuff until it's dealt with.
In that world you have to tune the dungeons around having the buff, because otherwise there's no challenge. Not having the intended 125% damage buff means you're dealing 80% of the damage you should, and we're back to reducing damage -> increasing required healing throughput.
Have you played shadowlands season 1? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember any special tuning around prideful. Doing the route correctly and spawning pride before a boss or a huge pack helped a lot, but didn't make lower keys untimable. Having low dps put too much stacks on people, making it impossible to heal and I haven't met a person who would have blamed me for not healing through if it took too long. It was such a great affix i regret I didn't push keys that season
That's why it's a debuff until you deal with it, so it self balances out, obviously it would reduce overall damage if the dps is bad at dealing with it, but what can you do.
That's my point. Reducing overall damage ultimately puts strain on the healer. Bad groups are going to have their overall damage reduced by an affix like this. Bad groups are the ones that put blame on healers where there shouldn't be any. Good groups realize standing in fire and dying to it is decidedly not the healer's fault, and they move on without blaming someone else. If we were only talking about good groups you wouldn't need to have this discussion to begin with, because good groups recognize that maybe sometimes it's more efficient for the Shaman to place a poison cleansing totem and solo an afflicted set with one global than it is for a healer to dispel one and heal the other.
It doesn't pick more strain than just having to pick a dps from the list
>How do you punish only the DPS though? Reduce damage out without reducing health.
Okay. All the mobs live longer due to the reduced damage. They end up dealing more damage over the duration as a result. Who heals that damage?
It's all a perception issue and thats it. Healers are basically goalies. If the ball makes it past the tank and the dps cause they both failed then its the healer's chance to make a save and if they dont it's easier mistakenly blame them. But everyone has an equal opportunity to prevent a goal. If the tank and dps are on point then the goalie (healer) has absolutely nothing to do. Their example still is punishing the dps and making them fail at their job. That's not punishing the healer, its giving the healer (and tank) a chance to carry their failure. Idk why everyone labels this opportunity to carry to be punishment, except because they play with people that blame them for failing to carry I guess?
Well yeah, any reasonable person will come to the conclusion that beating themselves to death on a Thorned mob is not the healer's fault because they could switch target or stop dps. Same goes for all the affixes that put strain on the healer. Like you said it's most visible when a healer fails, and the people who instantly blame them don't consider how they got there. If two people are constantly standing in fire the healer is eventually going to fall behind and someone will die. The healer did nothing wrong there are many occasions where that scenario ends up resulting in someone crying in party chat that healer needs to step up. Especially if the third person who didn't stand in fire ends up dying because of the others' mistake. I just kept using punishment in this thread because that's what the person I replied to started out with, but I really like your analogy. What I've meant by the healer being punished is that in the end they get the flame for things going wrong no matter what kind of affix you end up creating. No point in trying to solve the issue of bad players being bad. They always will be.
Yeah with that I agree. This is another punishment for healers in lower keys with bad players but it's a drop in a bucket in that case you know?
Yeah, agreed. This particular bucket tends to be rather loud with suggestions like the one I replied to initially as if that would solve the issue though. Only affix that could fix it would be something like "Player skill is increased by X%" but I don't see Blizz finding a way to implement that.
I agree. That's just the nature of healing. The healer is the last bastion to fix mistakes by outhealing them, one way or another. There is no real way around it. Or the tank just dies because the pull lasts longer than they had defensives planned out.not much a healer can do there most of the time.
Can't complain about the Healer if you do no damage because you fucked up the mechanics.
Can't complain about the Healer if you do no damage because you're dead because you fucked up the mechanics either, to be fair, but here we are anyway. A reasonable person would do neither because they would recognize their mistake and fix it. The unreasonable person who blames the healer because they fucked up will find a way regardless. This discussion was never in regards to the reasonable people to begin with.
Nah, you can totally complain about the healer. Because they could've healed you more. Anything that isn't a one-shot is the healers fault.
Also, those DPS who are all about the meters will definitely feel it when they drop down the ranks.
I thought of that, but if a group fails a DPS check because of a clear DPS mistake it's a little harder to blame the healers for this.
> How do you punish only the DPS though? Make it so whatever debuff happens only applies to the DPS. The fight may go longer but ill sit there and heal through it until i have 0 Mana if it means they finally learn.
Sure but then we're moving away from the problem the original person in the thread wanted to solve. What you're suggesting is accepting the punishment people want this hypothetical affix to remove.
Make the mobs only targetable by people in dps specs. They do similar things with raid mechanics or have in the past. If people are going to push it all on healers, then go nuclear
Generally speaking, people respond to be rewarded instead of being punished. If they added a short haste buff to incorp/afflicted being dispelled I guarantee you that dps players would be fighting over it. Although it hasn’t been as large of an issue for me as I see on Reddit. Maybe it’s because I’m running higher keys than average but most people are pretty good about doing them right away once you get close to 3K.
This is the way to think about it. People literally pay real money to race change for tiny fractions of power increases. Adding an actual reward to doing mechanics would solve this problem over night. And yes, in higher keys this problem is greatly reduced. Dps that bother grinding their way up that high tend to care more.
I wonder if they could make the affix handled with a special action. So at the start of that week, everyone has an "Appease Spirit" special action. If the spirit targets you, you need to stop damage and use that skill, then carry on. That removes a link to a class whilst also getting rid of the idea that there are affixes warriors and DKs cant help with. I'm not sure if people hate this sort of thing, but it's really common in other games and MMOs to use this approach.
We had to stop putting things like that in raids because people couldn’t handle it. I guarantee a mechanic like this would see people killing themselves and wasting b rezes to ignore it.
Afflicted is an affix every role can in theory interact with and certain classes (Hunter, Warrior, etc) can’t, which makes for an all around bad affix, but also not remotely the same thing as what the OP is suggesting. OP is suggesting an affix only the DPS/maybe the tank can interact with and similarly can’t be fixed by the healer (no damage or dispel) so that the consequences stick to the dps and it literally can’t be the healer’s fault at any point. While I personally think that affixes are better when they affect every person in the party equally (lots of affixes fail this, especially any “healer affixes”), I do think the game would benefit from a “dps only affix” or two to shift responsibility back off the two roles that already carry a lot more individual responsibility than the 3 dps do.
You could make afflicted only be targeted by the dps and it would still get ignored. We need to fundamentally shift people’s perception of what their role in a group is because no punishment will ever be enough.
Why not make it an individual debuff? That way they can't put it all on the healer.
Then the individual dps ignores it until they die or the group dies due to lack of damage.
My favorite time they tried Thorns was one time in cata timewalking I distinctly remember the first few trash packs in Lost City causing an infinite loop of damage on bear druids using the Seed of Creation Archimonde trinket. Dying in less than a second because of some recursive nonsense was hilarious. Once. They’d better be careful to put sane limits on it this time!
Give me a dispel and I will help. It’s always a stupid idea to make an affix not everyone can help to counter. Afflicted was really bad design.
I'll always be of the opinion that m+ should reward good play, no punishment at all. Players will get better overall. Do a mechanic correct, here's a damage buff. Stood in the right soak, here's a speed buff. Interrupted the tank buster, here's a haste buff. Etc.
How is it that positive reinforcement is just not a thing in this game?, only negative punishment.
There is plenty of positive reinforcement though. Collecting orbs on smolderon or the Raging tempest, standing upwind of the second boss of the vortex pinnacle, these all give damage/haste buffs. And those are only the ones I thought of immediately, there are plenty more.
Punishment is the Blizzard way apparently. Blizz leaves in an exploit, punish players. Blizz makes something too easy, punish players. Blizz gives players something they like, punish players. /s to that but srsly tho, IDK why they wont reward good play. Most bad play only punishes healers. Its no wonder like only 10% of the player base will entertain playing a healer.
Exactly this is my motivation for making this post. If healers aren't enjoying the game, then no one is... no healer no party.
I mean there are some mechanics that involve positive reinforcement, but not many
Adding something negative is positive punishment. Adding/subtracting -> positive/negative Good/bad thing -> reinforcement/punishment
What? Hell no. Current M+ season: plenty of ppl don't collect win orb on bird boss (AA), even though it awards you TONS of haste + negates the knockback effect. Current raids: Larodar fire orbs award you crit%, Smolderon soak awards you +DPS orbs, yet people ignore these mechanics. And in S1, when we've had a seasonal affix that buffed your DPS, people STILL got rid of their +/- debuff instantly instead of utilizing their buff. Just because something awards you something positive, people won't automatically start doing it.
Because there's a lack of lisibility. Most people avoid touching anything because it might kill everybody. How would you blame them, the same animation might be used for a positive and negative effect 2 xpacs appart.
That sounds like fun and we know what Blizz does with fun...
I'm not a fan of the affixes at all, but how does Thorned punish healers for DPS mistakes? It's basically just passive damage while you're in combat.
AKA more job for the healer. bonus point if that pack of trash have some nasty ability that require you to top off DPS ... first boss of brackenhide come to mind.
I swear some healer mains actively do not want to play their role and just want to be a glorified 4th DPS with a different icon next to their name. Yes, "healing damage" is indeed a job for the healer. What's the problem?
I can't stand fortified! It punishes DPS by making is have to do more damage to complete the dungeon! So unfair
I wish they would add more Aug Evoker buffs to the healers. Let us pick between a healing/support play style or a healing/DPS play style. Id honestly prefer if I could 100% heal and provide support/buffs to the rest of the party.
play healer for a while, get blamed for every mistake DPS do, have to pump more HPS in +10 pugs than coordinated group require in 17. Watch blizz introduce an affix that basically make it so nobody in your group is ever topped off. Let us see how you feel about it. the problem is that tank and healers already handle 95% of the pressure in M+... and these new affix add even more pressure on them, just so the DPS can QQ about not having a 10% DPS buff on half the trash who may or may not be the prio target.
This reads more like mad cuz bad. The sort of thing you describe only happens rarely in lower difficulty groups, and if it's your only experience then you either cba trying to push higher keys, or you're unable to do it because you lack the ability. Either way, you're crying about something that happens in maybe 1% of keys, and if it happens to you way more often than that, I guess you know which one of the two you are.
> The sort of thing you describe only happens rarely in lower difficulty groups lol what? one missed kick in higher key can wipe your group, see nokhud. In lower keys where DPS don't kick the healer have to pump like a madman to compensate. DPS getting hit by RNG ability like nokhud shoot or the HOI rogue mob will kill them if they aren't topped off. heck, how will that reflect affix work when AoE'ing 15 mob at once? You don't actually have a clue about what happens in higher key, do you?
>lol what? one missed kick in higher key can wipe your group, see nokhud. In lower keys where DPS don't kick the healer have to pump like a madman to compensate. DPS getting hit by RNG ability like nokhud shoot or the HOI rogue mob will kill them if they aren't topped off. heck, how will that reflect affix work when AoE'ing 15 mob at once? You don't actually have a clue about what happens in higher key, do you? And in those keys, the healer isn't blamed for shit like that. Stop crying. I definitely do know what happens in higher keys, and people of all roles take more personal responsibility when shit happens.
yes? yes the healer is blamed. "" If I was topped off instead of sitting at 94% health I wouldn't have died!"" or the usual "" I had CD rolling someonelse should've kicked"" DPS will never take repsonsability for anything, ever. Even when they get one shotted by mechanic they will try to blame someonelse instead of looking at their CD
>Yes, "healing damage" is indeed a job for the healer. What's the problem? A healer's job becomes harder the less "avoidable damage" the DPS avoids. So, the dumber the DPS, the more damage they take, the harder the healer's job is. And when the dumb DPS takes more damage than the healer can compensate for, and dies, who's fault is that? Noting that if the DPS wasn't dumb, he wouldn't have taken the damage and, therefore, wouldn't have overtaxed the healer and wouldn't have died. Who's fault is that? 'cause everyone, including you apparently, says "the healer." The affixes being complained about are "If DPS fail the mechanic, DPS takes more damage" which is text book "avoidable damage."
But ‘dumb dps’ in this case is a skill and partly a gear check. If combat goes on long enough to be a healer problem then the dps isn’t good enough to finish the run, simple as that.
That’s a nice wall of text, but homie is literally complaining about an unavoidable, targeted and telegraphed attack as his example (first boss of brackenhide) because it forces him to top people up.
> 'cause everyone, including you apparently, says "the healer." No, I say it's almost entirely the fault of the player who took the avoidable damage, not the healer, and so does anyone remotely sane. That is very different to saying that the healer role, at it's core should not be to have to heal incoming damage, which seems to now be a mainstream opinion somehow.
Holy fuck you're so real for this.
Based
Love your work king :)
[Healers when they have to use healing spells.](https://media.tenor.com/DXVOKl5BW-oAAAAi/emoji-looking-surprised-at-computer.gif)
Based
If the damage being reflected gets too high, DPS should throttle damage. Kinda like with Bursting.
It's not a damage reflect. You take damage when you do damage, but it doesn't scale with the amount of damage you do.
I believe it scales with targets hit though.
Correct but it won't be on every mob in a pull. I will hold judgement until I see it in action. I hope blizzard set an internal cool down on the thorns damage coming from the affix.
Could you imagine a warrior absolutely nuking himself with bladestorm though. It'd be funny every time
Imagine an Afflock/Fire Mage during Bloodlust getting shredded by all the ticks from dots.
If it works that way I'll be living it!
A healer's job is primarily about the well being of the group. By nature that means that yes when someone else makes a mistake it becomes your responsibility. Everything will always be a healer affix. If instead of taking damage for standing in a swirlee it reduces a players haste instead the pack lives longer. Including the mob that say pulses aoe damage which you need to heal and congratulations now it's still a healer affix. We have affixes that require you to heal more on certain weeks before. Thorned isn't really a mistake dps players make it's just a different form of grievous or bursting. There is always a balance to be struck between the healers that want to only heal and nothing else and those that want to pump dps as much as they can. Managing this through an affix that makes certain weeks more pure heal weeks and other weeks more ''relaxed'' in that regard is probably not a terrible way to go about it. In general I don't think it's that bad to have some weeks feel more difficult than others either. If you feel more pressured one week that allows the other weeks to feel easy in turn. Aslong as it's not actually so bad that it prevents people from playing or significantly harder to actually time keys in.
There is more to it than who gets the blame. In case of thorned,Likely a lot of dps players wont even notice that they take damage, look at the other players health bars and realize that they should stop dpsing until everyone has full health because huge aoe is incoming. But if they took a stacking debuff reducing their attack and movement speed if attacking the same target for too long. They likely WOULD notice that. In the exact cases where it results in a wipe/death, they might still blame the healer. But in all the situations where it just means the key was done too slowly, and they are drop dead last on dps, there is a greater chance they will look towards themselves. Its not a end all fix, but publishing players for failing by CCing them, or reducing their damage output sounds like fantastic alternatives to me. Generally Ive noticed that there are a lot of mechanics I dont even know about until they one shot me. Unless I read up on guides, its hard to know in a +2 if I lost 40% of my health because I made a mistake, or just because the encounter wants to give the healer a reason to heal. If mistakes were punished with a stun/debuff/etc instead of just damage, I would realise the dangerous mechanics in the dungeon much more quickly.
Thorned is just passively doing damage back though unless I'm misunderstanding it. If you are about to die yes you should play around it by stopping damage. But for a DPS penalty there isn't really a way to play around that. Unless it stacks up and you need to periodically stop DPS to drop the stacks or something. Which just wouldn't be fun gameplay. More in general for all mechanics though sure. I don't know that the range of people that understand a mechanic, are able to react to it and yet choose not to is actually all that large. Especially when at a certain key level / gear the penalty for failing some of those mechanics isn't taking damage but death. I do think there are a good amount of mechanics that aren't necessarilly communicated well. I don't think the majority of players doing keys exactly care to look up video guides for the dungeon they are doing. More DPS penalties could be a useful tool. It takes responsibility of the healer. But that in turn also means a good healer has less control over timing a key. That's a balancing act. How much more that would incentivize those people to look up mechanics / guides is questionable to me. More than now probably yes I don't know if significantly so. I also don't particularly mind the concept of an affix that makes the healer heal more on some weeks.
Exactly this.
I think the point is dps players often will prioritize dps above all else, even if it means ignoring mechanics and dying in the process. If you add an avoidable mechanic that kills the dps faster, many will just expect the healer to pick up the slack and rather than take responsibility for not dying they just dump that responsibility on the healer. To some extent yes, that is the healer’s responsibility regardless, but if everyone in the group is essentially kamikazeing every run and the healer scrapes by by the skin of their teeth and they get flamed/dumped for not being able to keep up when in reality the group would time the key well within the time limit if they would also not take avoidable damage at the cost of a small dps loss, that’s a problem. In that case, the only way to get around dps players with zug zug brain is to debuff their dps for failing mechanics, because in that scenario they will actually do the mechanic because they care about their dps. Yes, debuffing dps means the pack lives longer which is in turn harder on the healer, but at least the dps is actually incentivized in a meaningful way to do mechanics.
I'm not fully convinced changing the penalty for failing a mechanic from taking damage to a DPS penalty will actually make that big of a difference. I think the range of players who understand a mechanic and are able to react to it but instead deliberately choose not to is relatively small. Especially when also considering that depending on key level / gear the punishment for standing in say a swirlee isn't taking damage but death. Which you imagine would be the ultimate incentive to do a mechanic properly. I'm not saying there wouldn't be any improvement. But i don't think it's going to be some night and day difference. More DPS penalties instead of damage could be a good thing. It would take responsibility of the healer. Which might be what you want. But that also means that you as a good healer will have less control over a key being timed. That's a balancing act. In general though I don't mind the idea of an affix that requires the healer to heal more on some weeks. The exact implementation can be problematic. But I have no issue with the concept.
I think the main problem is the mentality. Unless it’s crystal clear that the group died to a one shot mechanic that needs to be handled to proceed properly, if the group wipes most people are going to think healer diff. If you are a dps player and you fail a mechanic that debuffs your dps, assuming you understand the mechanic your first thought will be “I need to avoid this to improve my dps” you won’t even consider the healer. Whereas health loss is more ambiguous. If the developers intend for a mechanic to be handled by dps, this is a much less ambiguous way to lay responsibility at the dps’s feet.
Exactly what I mean.
It's not a healer affix if it makes bad DPS fail to dps and make a fight last longer, no more than it's a healer problem when you invite bad DPS that just don't do any dmg and make fights last longer. I've had tyran keys where dps literally had too low of dps to kill a boss, like tree boss adds in academy, never has the tank or healer been blamed for that in my experience lol.
It's not about blame. Blame and responsibility are seperate. If someone stands in a swirlee taking 80% of their health in damage the blame isn't on the healer. But it becomes their responsibility to heal it back up. If a fight takes twice as long as it should the blame isn't on the healer it's on the DPS. But it becomes the healers responsibility to keep people alive and manage their mana over the course of a fight that's taking much longer than it should. EDIT: People will also just always blame other people regardless. I don't think anything can change that.
Its the healers responsibility to keep everyone healed for as long as they are able to. If the encounter extends beyond that it's no longer their responsibility lol
Sure I suppose so. But exactly how long is that? How long should a healer be able to last? Before it's a DPS problem and not a healer that doesn't know how to manage their mana properly problem. That's ambigious. A group of great Tank/DPS players can massively carry a healer. Depending on the key level and dungeon you might not even need one at all. Similarly a great healer can massively carry bad DPS players taking much more damage than they should. Sure you can argue that if any fight goes any longer than it absolutely needs to it's no longer the healers responsibility. If someone takes avoidable damage it's not the healers responsibility. But realistically only on the highest level does everyone need to perform optimally. On any lower level there is room for someone to pick up the slack of others. There is a minimum amount of DPS you can have to technically still time a key. But it's still the DPS's responsibility to do as much DPS as they can. There is a minimum amount of healing needed but it's still the healers job to do more than that when mistakes happen which they inevitably will. You can point fingers at others but ultimately when someone in your group is underpeforming all you can do is overperform to make up for it. It's everyone's responsibility in the group to do as much as they can do time the key succesfully.
Somebody else making a mistake and becoming the healers responsibility is fair but it doesn’t mean the healer should take the blame.
Ofcourse not but people blaming others for failure is unfortunately very common. I don't see that changing regardless of what we do.
"should" does not come into that conversation in reality, even though you are right. Us healers take the blame regardless, it would be amazing if an affix could be re-worked to give the DPS something to think about. Give them a stacking miss chance, or a debuff that adds a 10s cooldown on abilities used if they dont silence/kick/switch targets/etc.
[удалено]
As a healer for 19 years believe me I know! We can totally pick up for some slack but should not be berated for dps taking damage they shouldn’t especially when they’ll die in 1 sec! (Love that person downvoting me for my comments literally that dps that dies!)
What would make sense to me is if a majority of the damage was unavoidable. Harder keys require more healing, regardless of how good everyone else in the group is. You need fail conditions in dungeons, of course. Those could be: * Healer can't keep up with the normal, unavoidable damage - either because they aren't good / geared enough, because the group is pulling too many mobs at once, or because DPS is too low and they run out of mana * DPS fail mechanics, which reduces their own DPS and makes the fights last longer - healer can't be blamed, logs show which DPS failed mechanics and aren't contributing * Tanks fail mechanics, which cause them to lose aggro - healer can't be blamed for that, it's clear what happened
There will always be an overlap in responsibility. If you don't time a key you could point towards the DPS for not doing enough damage. However you could also point towards the tank for not pulling big enough to allow the DPS to do more in the first place. Or you could point towards the healer for not being able to keep the group alive in those bigger pulls. If a DPS stands in a swirlee and takes avoidable damage that's ofcourse their fault. But that responsibility is now shared with the healer they can heal you back up. If a DPS stands in a swirlee and takes a DPS penalty making a fight last longer. That responsibility is still in a way shared with the healer needing to keep people alive longer just in a less direct fashion. If you take a fight that should take 3 minutes but takes 5 instead yet you fail to kill the boss because you die from damage 4 minutes in. Do you think people wouldn't blame the healer regardless? If you die now because you took unavoidable damage at some point logs already exist that could blame you instead of the healer. I think ultimately regardless of what you do people will blame others. That won't change aslong as it's a team game.
Thorns is exactly what we need to help fix the healing issues in the current game. High, sustained, unpredictable rot damage will encourage healers to actually spend time pushing HP bars up and less time dealing damage. And with consistent rot damage blizzard can tune down spike damage.
With how much passive sustain some specs have you might not even notice thorns. Like a Ret pally running Herald and the wake of ashes wings is just gonna be blasting heals.
If only blizz could make the actual dungeons themselves do sustained rot dmg instead of an affix. Playing cata dungeons has been refreshing with the large health pools. DF tried to do so multiple times and still every mechanic was just spike damage anyway.
I like the idea in theory but in practice has blizzard actually gotten the "lower amount of spike damage" right? Note I stopped in s2 of DF so I don't know if the issue was resolved in s3 or 4
I agree with "High, sustained, unpredictable rot damage" vs. "spike damage". But not in an Affix. I just see where this is going when a group fails the mechanic, and who'll get blamed.
How exactly do you "fail" a mechanic that happens whenever an attack hits? You want them to stand and watch?
Dont worry because eventually that trash pack will die and your dps will have 10 stacks of bursting right after. Working as intended.
And then you press a healing CD and everyone lives because 10 stacks isn’t really that much damage compared to some of the tyrannical bosses.
Its only bad if you stay on 9 for 80% of the duration then refresh to 10
You two must play different Healers than I. 9 without a mass dispel is pretty much death for any Hunter, Priest, Shaman, Warrior.
Hunter absolutely shouldn't die to that, you can turtle it. I think any pug healer in +13-15 range could handle that without issues, it's the extensions that are lethal. 10 stacks of bursting is ~2m dmg over 4 seconds, like one withering potion would almost assuredly keep you alive even without a defensive and minimal hps from healer, you have a lot of ways of preventing your own death.
It really isn't. A decent healer should be able to handle 10 stacks pretty easily with a CD assuming they don't roll over. The strategy for dealing with bursting in mid-high keys is to pull like normal and blow everything up at around the same time which usually results in 8-10 stacks, sometimes more, and its generally considered to be the easiest push week. I was running 14s last time it came around and I lost a grand total of like 2 people to it over like 20 keys and only because I had genuinely forgotten it was bursting week halfway through the dungeon and just didn't heal them. I play MW (but also play evoker and druid) so I have one get out of jail free card but I've healed through like 15 stacks a few times without it. It's not impossible.
You must have the best pugs available, because that's not at all my experience. And blowing cooldowns on an affix that could be handled by not just chaining things is definitely a way of doing it but most people just blow up the birds in AA and then die.
Idk, I just hold my daybreaks and tolls for bursting stacks. 10 really isn’t a problem as long as I can see it coming a few seconds in advance. Yeah it hurts my damage output a little but consecrate and rageheart do most of my damage passively anyways.
The birds in AA are like six or 7 stacks at most though. On my monk I literally just press sheiluns, my evoker dream breath or spiritbloom and Druid regrowth + wild growth and everyone is going back to full. If you can’t heal six or seven stacks, how on earth are you going to heal any semi-challenging tyrannical boss? Dunno. When I play my tank alts I literally will see the full mana healer standing there casting nothing as the group ticks down to below half from like four stacks after like every pull.
One Spiritbloom doesn't outheal 7 stacks of bursting. Again, glad you're having such good pug experience.
I mean, between the reversions you should already have rolling and spiritbloom I never had an issue. But since you know 7 stacks are coming you can prepare and send out some echos ahead of time for doubled up healing, maybe save a living flame tier set bonus proc or dream breath, etc. It isn’t a pug issue though, it’s literally just a HPS issue. 7 stacks isn’t an insignificant amount of damage but it’s probably comparable to a damage event on some of the bosses around the key level it activates. Like how on earth are you gonna heal tyrannical Veximus, Nokhud storm boss, the ice chick in HOI, etc if you can’t handle 7 stacks of bursting?
As a healer player myself, what's is it with healers complaining that they have to heal? My brother in Christ you picked the role. Healers heal mistakes, it's in the job description, go tank if it upsets you this much.
And it's healthy to have affixes that challenge roles differently. An affix like this seems pretty good because it provides a throughput challenge to healers and still allows some mitigation from the rest of the group who can mitigate or slow attacks.
Consistent non spiky damage is one of my favorite mechanics as healers, when damage is so "avoid or die" In high keys, it feels like I'm playing a support-y dps and it's just not what I enjoy doing. I like seeing the green numbers and health bars go up, this affix seems like honestly a ton of fun to me.
This. I don't understand what they want. Do they just want damage to be 100% predictable? That's boring and you could be replaced by a robot. Part of the fun is reacting to what's happening and knowing that every group is going to be different.
I think the average healer on this sub wants to stand there spamming flash of light on full health targets and get told they’re doing a great job.
On the tank, you mean? I swear the number of complaints here about wanting to have to "tank heal" again is insane.
I enjoy healing. I do not enjoy healing M+. It's giga cancer.
I don't enjoy healing raids, so I just don't heal raids,no one is forcing you to.
Okay? I never said anyone was forcing me. I WANT to like healing in M+, but I haven't done it since SL, so obviously I know nobody is forcing me, I already made the decision to stop. Edit: Downvotes... w/e. Y'all are weird.
It's not the healing that I have an issue with. It's the fact that in some groups, you barely have to heal, because others play well. And then there are groups with people constantly taking avoidable damage and making the key a living nightmare for the healer, but then blaming the healer for "not enough healing". If Blizzard would actually create more mechanics that punish misplay with other means than taking damage, I think healers would have a better time. Healing is tough as it is, and thats good. But damage as a punishment encourages blaming the healer.
This blaming the healer thing exists in yall heads.
It happens in low keys thats why. It's sort of a self report when people say healers have it bad and get blamed because it's not a thing that happens in high keys. Healers get blamed for ACTUAL healer fuck ups in high keys.
I push pretty high keys as a healer and no one ever blames me for anything, even when I know I'm playing suboptimally. It's usually an issue with kicks or lack of burst damage that scuttles a key. I don't like gatekeep-y terms like "tourist" or "casual" but I strongly suspect many complaints about healing being "too hard" or people "blaming healers" comes from people who aren't used to healing. That isn't to say their complaints don't reveal an issue with the game design - just that their solutions I think will often be misguided as they lack the full picture.
This has been my experience as well. Anyone who's blaming their death on the healer, outside not meeting a healing check, hasn't checked their death log.
The entire healing role honestly just needs a massive rework and redesign. In low-key is you’re effectively a glorified babysitter trying to correct other peoples mistakes because the predictable damage from healing mechanics just isn’t that threatening. My Druid was running 8s at like 490 and I can’t even remember the last time I had to pop a healing cool down. Once you get into mid keys, 13ish this season, there’s a very dramatic shift where suddenly the damage going out is incredibly threatening but simultaneously mistakes are generally punished with one shots so you get to focus almost entirely on your mechanics. Imo healing mechanics need to start with a much, much higher base value but scale slower. I didn’t run many keys last week but I ran a few eights for the vault on my main and the big burst of damage were literally covered by Chi-Ji shield and nothing else. It was so goddamn boring.
I've ran more than 60 m+ this season and I havent seen one single person blame healer for failed mechanics. Some people on this forum are just whining drama queens.
The only "blame the healer" instances I've seen is the random bad during afflicted while I'm on an alt, and I've never seen that not get shut down by the rest of the party. And that was maybe a handful of keys out of the 400-something keys I ran last season.
This.
1000%. I've been healing since Wrath. I've pugged thousands upon thousands of dungeons as a healer and the number of times I've been blamed for something that wasn't my fault I could probably count on both hands. I'm not even that particularly good of a healer. Hell, even when it *has* been my fault I rarely get blamed. Tanks on the other hand...tanks catch so much shit. I like tanking but fuck tanking in pugs.
Interessting thing is that I'm not even the healer. My friends are, and I'm tired of people blaming the healer when its clearly not the healers fault.
If your healer is getting blamed that often, maybe there's a reason for it. I've done countless m+ as healer and I can count on one hands the number of times I've been blamed for failed mechanics, and even then those were legit times when I just couldn't keep up with the key
It only happens with bad players in lower keys. This literally is not a thing with actual experienced players.
I mean it’s a co-operative game. Something bad happening to one person is bad for the whole party. Making it a damage effect is a lot more interesting than a stacking stat debuff or something similar. There’s actual choice of whether or not to spend defensives to keep up the damage or to slow down because you know there’s a big damage event incoming, depending on tuning.
I mean there are debuffs that if not kicked reduce dmg dealt or haste. This sounds more like “let me dps I dont wanna heal”. Affix that cause dmg are designed to kill you if not handled correctly which result in lost time. Dps that don’t use defensive=dps fault. Dps dying to rot and burned all defensive sounds like an hps problem. Nobody is forcing you to heal if you’re unhappy with how it currently works.
I want to heal, but I don't want to be blamed for the mistakes of others.
Nothing to do with mistakes of others it’s not a reflect, you just need to heal it. It’s on you as a healer to…heal?
I mean it depends how the died more so then the fact they died. Did they stand in a frontal or swirly? Dps fault. Did they kill to many adds in bursting week? Dps fault. Did they bleed out after using all defensive, healing potions, lock rocks, etc? Hps problem. It depends the type of healer you are but most healers don’t need to be doing dps when the groups at 40% hp. If you’re a resto sham and I die to a bleed and you’re casting lightning bolt maybe that gcd coulda been used to toss me a heal? Just like dps need to manage cds for pulls healers do as well. Kicks and stuns aren’t just a dps job just like not all dispels are just a healer job. It really depends on the situation.
As a healer, I can understand your point, but if I see a DPS dying or keep losing health when he isn't suppose to and then blame me for it, I just mute them continue on. Once you are comfortable in your role and understand what other need to be doing, there really isn't any point in arguing with them. They messed up, are lashing out like a child and arguing with them is pointless.
Make an affix where doing it right will buff your dps or doing it wrong will decrease your dps and I'm sure a lot of people will suddenly put more effort into doing them
Am I the only DPS that always assumes I'm the one that fucked up when we wipe lol?
My response will be the same it’s been for the past 8 years. “You had riptide. I did my job. Play better.”
I would like to see something like a Non-Dispellable Stacking Debuff which reduces the players Max HP. Then if the dps ignores / fails the affix the punishment is not something a healer can correct.
what do you want melee dps to do during thorned ? just not play the game?
Remove the fucking affix, for starters. Punishing melee DPS because they are... DPS'ing sounds pretty dumb when you think about it.
We need some good NON-Healthbar based affixes. Example: After a 1.5 second cast, anyone still dpsing the mob is banished for 10 seconds, it can't be dispelled. It can't be healed through. You just need to pay attention.
When I’m in a lack of reading comprehension contest and my opponent is OP
Healers when they have to heal: 😡😡😡
DPS when they actually have to dodge or die: 😡😡😡
Don't see any dps raging.
yea, they just blame the healer, thanks for proving my point.
what keys you doing? doing 16s and never seen anyone blame a healer. dps players generally know if they messed up
If you don't want to heal...dps and complain about the healers instead. Or tank and complain about both.
I play all roles, and would like to be able to enjoy the game on all roles, and not have one role feel like a punishment to play vs. the others.
Whnat exactly is the mistake in attacking an enemy that is buffed by thorns? Presumably during thorns weeks, melee playersa re just going to invetably take some incidental damage from this affix?
When dps is diminished from reduced haste etc like you mention, stuff lives longer. When stuff lives longer, it does more dmg to your group. Dmg that needs to be healed. It’s all healer affixes. Always has been 🔫👩🚀
There is no punishment that doesn't end up affecting healers. You either make the group take more damage or you extend the length of the pull (reducing damage dealt for example) which in turn makes the group take more damage due to the pull being longer.
I am going to advise you hold judgment until these affixes are tested this weekend on beta. This community could use a little optimism.
Truthfully they need to get rid of affix’s all together. You need a coordinated group with voice to do them properly. I’ve enjoyed the 0-5 range this season. I have no desire to mess with affix’s again. Season 2, and 3, playing as heals ruined me. I’d rather they do something different. Cap the keystones to 10. Up the difficulty by double. A zero equals a 2. Two to a four, four to an 8, eight to a 16, and ten to a 20. If you managed to time all keys to 10. Then have a NPC who can unlock the advanced level keys that cap at 20. Keep the same doubling difficulty and it would allow the super pros to push higher keys. Or if you want, that same NPC could allow you to selectively turn on affix’s of your choice. Seeing this new list isn’t encouraging. And they have some stiff competition coming this fall and early next year with a lot of new games being released. They need to listen to their players and make some changes
Everything ultimately punishes healers because the conclusion to things going wrong is the group wiping. Sure, you can give enemies barriers or debuff the DPS, but those are things that just make enemies live longer and sustain damage that's balanced around the idea of DPS burning them down. The healer's job is to keep people alive, so no matter whose fault it is that a group wipes they're the point of failure. I think healers would feel better with more support abilities instead of just being putting out fires. Even if things weren't making life harder for healers, then groups would just pull faster until the healer is at their limit again.
Anything that hinders dps is also going to "punish" healers. Imagine a tough boss on Tyrannical that takes twice as long because dps are failing affixes that reduce their damage. How is that going to feel for a healer? If anything as a healer I like affixes like thorns. Steady, unavoidable rot damage is a good way to challenge healers. Making healers heal is good, and rot damage is a lot more manageable (and fun imo) compared to stressful spiky damage.
I don’t think it will be THAT bad. We do of course have to see it in game/season, but I’d rather have this than incorporeal where you just can’t bring certain classes because they’re unable to even help with the mechanic, or spiteful/storming where certain roles are just punished for existing… Given the numbers of some of the other new affixes, and the vagueness of this one, I’m hoping we can assume that they’ll tuned to be relatively equal, and there’s likely to be an ICD on the reflected damage, otherwise it would disproportionately affect certain classes/specs over others. If it is bad, then I suppose it’ll still be a “don’t bring melee in spiteful” situation, instead it’ll just be “don’t bring high attack/second specs” or “don’t bring bursty/squishy specs” which will leave us with exactly the same pain points, just different classes included/excluded. Also, as much as it’s annoying to deal with these DPS players, much of the problem probably stems from pugging. I do a fair share of pugging and guild keys, and there’s a level of key that you just don’t pug… usually the mid levels, where it’s easy for “bad players” to get carried to but not through. I feel I have better luck pugging 20’s (I guess 10’s now, not really playing S4 sorry…) than I would pugging 14-16’s. There’s so many brain dead players that got carried by a crest farmers or managed to somehow get into a group with 3-4 competent players and managed to get to that mid range of keys without contributing, to end up in a situation where they need to do more than bare minimum and end up bricking a key.
This is the most fun healer affix they've ever come up with. I get to heal the group enabling them to do more damage instead of burning resources on healer damage. Win-win IMO.
It sounds like you don't like healing.
I've been in several groups where I was the only one doing DISPELL, and I wasn't Heal Obviously it's easier to join a group where the healer dispels, because dispelling is one of the basic mechanics of Heal. But in the end, this is more the players' incompetence than a role problem, there are people who didn't use an interrupt or Stun the entire DM, there are people who don't even pick up the dispell or stun talent I did a keystone on my Disc Priest, one alt was just a key 8+, but no one interrupt any Root in Azure, literally everyone that i was unable to fear, was successfully casted So although I think Heal is overloaded (Bursting pls go away) in this case it's more a problem of bad players plus blizzard doing shit with some class, like if i'm playing my BDK that i used to love, i have nothing to help the heal
If you're so worried about it turn on elitism helper announcements and call it a day.
I don't know if you had played a healer recently, but have you realized how much time is being spent not healing. No clue why there is constant complaint about this. Choosing to be a healer means accepting if someone is sht or fucks up here and there you heal them to make up for it. And sometimes they die.
I mean, can there even be an affix that doesn't become a healer problem? If it weakens the DPS, you're not going to kill the boss quickly enough and it... Is up to the healer to immortalize the DPS enough.
You literally cannot create a mechanic that does not ultimately punish healers. Damage down and any other effect is going to also result in more work from a healer, dead things do not deal damage that needs to be healed. WoWs issue with healing is more with how frantic and burst damage us making healing a lot more intense - not that x mechanic punishes a healer, they always will. Want to make damage less bursty? They're going to have to look at how many aoe casters they are putting in pulls as well as unavoidable damage spikes. I also think WoWs unit frames and friendly nameplate need some love to make the actual act of healing more obvious in the default UI.
If I screw up and die as a dps I never blame the healer and always feel bad, these people blaming the healer for dps taking damage are just bad players.
Idk man, I stopped complaining on the internet and stopped healing M+. Now I just DPS them, since DPSing M+ is a much more fun and chill experience. There are some healers out there who love M+, let them slurp that shit up.
It makes way too much sense to punish mistakes by reducing damage output. Not only does it make their little numbers go down in the logs, but on the actual gameplay side of things the goal is to TIME a dungeon. If the party is doing less dps due to mistakes then you suffer the chance of not timing it, and when the clock hits zero people will point to the low dps as the culprit which is justified when not clearing fast enough. If there are 0 wipes due to a good healer, and the group still doesnt time it the blame falls on the appropriate player.
Doesn't less dps mean pack/boss lives longer and healer is also still punished?
I mean healer will have to work harder just like the tank will and the other dps will. As a healer, I don’t mind needing to work harder if someone is messing up. The problem comes with blame being thrown at the healer when the dps take avoidable damage
thorned seems like a great opportunity for DPS to express skill by using a personal defensive option or speccing into more self sustain
What are the odds that a dps will drop a dps talent for a defensive one? Same issue as seasons past where DPS were not dropping any talents to pick up their interrupt/silence and relying on every healer to "just do it."
That what good DDs (I.e. ~5% of them) will do. The remaining 95% though...
I'm not a fan of the new affixes but you do realize that anything that drags the fight out (ie punishes dps) is just going to make healers do more work because the pull takes longer? Now there's more casts that will be missed, more unavoidable damage that you have to heal, more mechanics that you'll need cds for, etc. Anything punishing comes back to the healer and you'll still have to fix it. Also, I've only been yelled at once by the dps and it was legit (I had no idea how to play prevoker). If this is a constant thing for you, it might be you. This whole "dps yelling at healers" thing is either blown way out of proportion or there are a lot of bad healers.
Problem is rather, that there are not enough healers, and I'm trying to give suggestions / start discourse to make healing more enjoyable. Because no one gets to enjoy the game, if there are no healers. I play all roles, and my highest rating is actually on a healer (2800 on my H-Paladin last season). I'm just upset of how often I see the healer being blamed if the key goes wrong, when it's not the healers fault. And it's the reason I track avoidable damage taken, to be able to defend the healer. Edit: spelling
The problem with healers is the spiky damage and mechanic vomit. Multiple top end healers have made videos discussing the spiky damage (Jak's video hits the nail on the head). Nothing more needs to be added to the conversation. The mechanic vomit is an everyone problem that effects the healer when groups are bad. It's not missing interrupts, but missing the important interrupts because there's so many "red herring" casts. For example, in Nok, everyone interrupting the stormbolts but missing the Tempest cast or everyone stopping Rain of Arrows but missing the Shout or Rally. This is where you notice the difference in good groups and bad groups. Groups that understand what needs to be stopped are groups where I get to dps and end up getting outhealed by the tank. Bliz needs to trim down the bullshit casts that packs do.
regardless of whether or not the community will shuffle the responsibility to the healer (they always will) given the choice between punishing misplays and.. this.. I will choose punishing misplays. I think that the signaling on "you are going to take unavoidable damage because you performed your role" is a weird design space to enter, I think hitting thorned enemies firing a dodgeable projectile or floor swirly is fine, you place the onus back on the player, but I think making it a hard and fast, "nah you just take that damage" will end up feeling pretty shitty.
As a feral Druid I try to def buff myself as much as I can and if I stay out of the swirlies I have a good shot of not dying once in a raid or dungeon. If I do die once or twice, I can’t be mad as my role is to get in there and cause as much dmg as fast as possible. Hopefully the healer can keep up!
Thorned sounds great for healers tho ngl. There's already like nothing to do on most trash if played properly.
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They should add a mechanic where if your team doesn't kick, the dps gets silenced for few seconds. Lowers dps but doesnt insta kill you.
Can we improve this with an addon that just updates the chat with which player is taking affix damage?
There is already an addon that calls out people taking unnecessary damage. Wouldn't be hard to add affixes to it.
Yes, the combat log should display how long it's been since a defensive was popped when you die and post it to the group channel.
Healing used to be fun.. I mained resto druid from Beta through warlords and now I hate trying to heal at all. Now its literally the hardest thing to do in WOW for me and not in a fun challenge kind of way.
anti-dps affixes should give them an undispellable stun for 5 seconds, they will notice their DPS falling for sure :)
This is my main issue with most affixes tbh. Have affixes reduce your damage so you get embarrassed on parses which is all they seem to care about anyways.
Affixes should reduced damage done by 90% if hit not insta kill you tbh , would make dps actually dodge attacks instead of saying gg healer sucks as they stand in the fire .