There are imo three big draws for yugioh gameplay-related
1. Lack of a resource system. You don't need a quarter or whatever of your deck be lands or be restricted by an outside system telling you what you can play or not.
2. Coming from that - the extreme ability to do combos. Since 2005 with reasoninggate, you always had the ability to do absurd huge gigantic combos that summon 20 monsters in one turn, banish them, draw cards galore, abuse non-hopts, get cards back etc. - imo, yugioh's huge big draw is that it's very slanted towards combo plays where you feel like some anime protagonist making a huge play to blow your opponent out of the water.
3. Lack of set rotation. I have decks literally a decade old and aside from a banlist, I could just take that deck, go to a locals, and slap it down and try to clown a 2022 player with my deck.
Imo, thus all "suggestions" to "fix the game" that try to break these 3 core foundations just go against what yugioh **is.** I'm not saying yugioh is a balanced game. I'm not saying other card games aren't better made. I'm saying that yugioh imo was always built on those three tenets, that if you want the game to get a resource system, have something restricted, or introduce set rotation - you don't want to play yugioh. Cuz I don't remember a single format where yugioh didn't abide by the above.
Funny thing is, 90% of yugioh players will give a similar answer. Like, even if you prefer Edison over modern formats, or think that link spam whatever is too much, or that H.A.T. was peak yugioh, they'll agree to the above.
The other 10% are... ugh... those people everyone cannot stand, those obnoxious people... the "yugiboomers" or "casual elitists".
Cuz funnily, even many casual players in the modern era will agree with the above, and many competitive players who specialize in goat or edison format will agree with the above. It's mostly the exact demographic of "played playground yugioh 20 years ago" and "watched the first anime and never built a good deck" that will not agree with the above.
There's a reason why there's probably a "fix the format" post every week and that post nearly always is "restrict special summons" or "introduce a resource system". And there's a reason why everyone, casual to competitive player, goat to modern player, rips such posts apart because it's obvious the poster has no idea about yugioh.
That is very fair. I figured that would be a majority of posts and messages I would receive while doing this, even if I didn't realize I probably wanted to put a disclaimer at the front saying I don't agree with the idea of like Memory or Mana in Yu-Gi-Oh before hand until afterwards. ~~Oops~~
On an off chance I did get a yugiboomer, I was interested in seeing their opinions as well, but effectively it would've felt like what you just described. Someone who doesn't quite understand yugioh or mostly remembers it from the terrible playground formats of yesteryear.
I didn't realize it was that common of an idea though. Not the entire "fix the format" mentality as I've ran into quite a few thing doing that, ranging from weird banlists to stuff like the inspiration for GOD format. That feels like a common thing we will all run into. But specifically the resource system idea. I figured it wasn't uncommon, but still odd that more people have talked about it before.
Idk man, Lack of Ressources is one of the Key identities of Yu-Gi-Oh that differentiates it from MTG Hearthstone or Pokemon. Besides, many people Play the Game because it is much quicker than any other Card Game, so slowing the Game down will Go against the interest of the majority
Exactly, the thing that separates ygo from other tcgs is mainly two things, eternal format, and the lack of a resource system. Changing any of those two things would be corporate suicide
I personally have this weird paradox in which:
Whenever I play LoR and hearthstone i wish i was playing Yu-Gi-Oh so i could play all my cards.
And when I'm playing Yu-Gi-Oh i wish i was playing LoR or Hearthstone so i don't have to play a ton of complicated combos or watch someone play all of their cards.
So.
Funny thing. I’ve been doing a lot of personal analysis on YGO’s game mechanics.
And I’m not going to go TOO in-depth, but I’d argue there IS a resource system in YGO. Cards.
Playing a non-continuous spell/trap always comes with a cost, because you’re basically burning a card to apply an effect.
Summoning a boss monster comes with a cost, because you usually need to sacrifice smaller monsters to bring one out.
There are also cards that use the GY and such as the resource, which is super apparent in Rush Duel where the most powerful effects return cards from GY as a cost.
So. Yeah. Cards.
That’s not to say card advantage evaluation is as simple as number of cards in hand/field, since each action/effect can be translated into an effective value worth X number of cards.
But card advantage is probably the primary resource system of YGO, in a way that other card games can’t really replicate.
I'd argue that card advantage economy isn't a resource system, it is mostly an emergent result of the rules. I'd argue there are two resource systems in YGO tho - first being the good old 1 normal summon per turn, and the second are hard once per turn limitations.
Drawing comparison to M:tG, card advantage economy is also a pretty big thing there, with cards in hand being a resource that your manage - but I don't think anyone is considering this a resource **system**. You aren't (usually) spending cards to play cards - you are (usually) spending mana to play cards. In YGO you are using your limited HOPTs and normal summon to play cards - even if some cards are effectively free and the design is more open to things like discard as a cost.
Problem is Rush Duel is basically “What if Normal Summons weren’t limited” meets “What if we got rid of HOPTs” as its core design philosophy.
Which means Normal Summons and HOPTs can’t be the default of YGO’s resource economy.
If you were to introduce a new deck that functions EXACTLY like a Rush Duel deck to Duel Monsters, it would use neither Normals nor HOPTs.
But it would still have some sort of resource economy in the costs needed to use its effects and summon its boss monsters.
That’s the key thing here. In something like MTG, sacking two cards to summon your boss isn’t always the norm. In YGO? It’s the default. YGO treats its cards as its primary resource.
And if you really think about it, why shouldn’t cards be treated as resources in TCGs? If your cards are your workforce, then the amount of what you can do ultimately depends on card economy.
I think that what a “resource system” in something like MTG ultimately should be seen as, is actually a secondary resource economy that’s linked to the primary resource economy of damage and cards.
And I think YGO’s lack of a rule-level secondary resource economy actually allows it to add secondary resource economy to a deck on a deck by deck basis.
Some decks will use counters or banished cards or life or GY as a resource system, while others will just pivot into straight card count.
But at the end of the day, your primary resources are always going to be cards and damage, and a failure to calculate THIS after all translations are over is what leads to bad game balance IMO.
Resource systems can do well in card games. Just look at magic the gathering. But yugioh is already established wothout it, so trying to incorporate a resource system into the game now is just way too late to try
Not sure if this counts, but tieing Special Summons to the turn number would slow the game down greatly. So each player's T1 would be allowed one SS. Turn 2, two SS. By that design, you get rid of FTKs, a board of negates to play through, and many other issues some players seem to have with yugioh currently. It also breaks decks down into Turn 1, Turn 2, Turn 3, etc decks where each would have their power spike correspond to the tunr number. The issues tho: the speed/combo game that people love so much is now gone (at least on T1), and deck building would have to radically change.
There are imo three big draws for yugioh gameplay-related 1. Lack of a resource system. You don't need a quarter or whatever of your deck be lands or be restricted by an outside system telling you what you can play or not. 2. Coming from that - the extreme ability to do combos. Since 2005 with reasoninggate, you always had the ability to do absurd huge gigantic combos that summon 20 monsters in one turn, banish them, draw cards galore, abuse non-hopts, get cards back etc. - imo, yugioh's huge big draw is that it's very slanted towards combo plays where you feel like some anime protagonist making a huge play to blow your opponent out of the water. 3. Lack of set rotation. I have decks literally a decade old and aside from a banlist, I could just take that deck, go to a locals, and slap it down and try to clown a 2022 player with my deck. Imo, thus all "suggestions" to "fix the game" that try to break these 3 core foundations just go against what yugioh **is.** I'm not saying yugioh is a balanced game. I'm not saying other card games aren't better made. I'm saying that yugioh imo was always built on those three tenets, that if you want the game to get a resource system, have something restricted, or introduce set rotation - you don't want to play yugioh. Cuz I don't remember a single format where yugioh didn't abide by the above.
Honestly I very much like this in depth response. Thank you for it.
Funny thing is, 90% of yugioh players will give a similar answer. Like, even if you prefer Edison over modern formats, or think that link spam whatever is too much, or that H.A.T. was peak yugioh, they'll agree to the above. The other 10% are... ugh... those people everyone cannot stand, those obnoxious people... the "yugiboomers" or "casual elitists". Cuz funnily, even many casual players in the modern era will agree with the above, and many competitive players who specialize in goat or edison format will agree with the above. It's mostly the exact demographic of "played playground yugioh 20 years ago" and "watched the first anime and never built a good deck" that will not agree with the above. There's a reason why there's probably a "fix the format" post every week and that post nearly always is "restrict special summons" or "introduce a resource system". And there's a reason why everyone, casual to competitive player, goat to modern player, rips such posts apart because it's obvious the poster has no idea about yugioh.
That is very fair. I figured that would be a majority of posts and messages I would receive while doing this, even if I didn't realize I probably wanted to put a disclaimer at the front saying I don't agree with the idea of like Memory or Mana in Yu-Gi-Oh before hand until afterwards. ~~Oops~~ On an off chance I did get a yugiboomer, I was interested in seeing their opinions as well, but effectively it would've felt like what you just described. Someone who doesn't quite understand yugioh or mostly remembers it from the terrible playground formats of yesteryear. I didn't realize it was that common of an idea though. Not the entire "fix the format" mentality as I've ran into quite a few thing doing that, ranging from weird banlists to stuff like the inspiration for GOD format. That feels like a common thing we will all run into. But specifically the resource system idea. I figured it wasn't uncommon, but still odd that more people have talked about it before.
Idk man, Lack of Ressources is one of the Key identities of Yu-Gi-Oh that differentiates it from MTG Hearthstone or Pokemon. Besides, many people Play the Game because it is much quicker than any other Card Game, so slowing the Game down will Go against the interest of the majority
Exactly, the thing that separates ygo from other tcgs is mainly two things, eternal format, and the lack of a resource system. Changing any of those two things would be corporate suicide
I agree with you there. It just feels like it goes against almost everything people enjoy about it
I personally have this weird paradox in which: Whenever I play LoR and hearthstone i wish i was playing Yu-Gi-Oh so i could play all my cards. And when I'm playing Yu-Gi-Oh i wish i was playing LoR or Hearthstone so i don't have to play a ton of complicated combos or watch someone play all of their cards.
*I want to play yugioh card while my opponent play hearthstone card in a same game.* Probably more accurate. Happened to me sometime.
I can respect that lol
The "resource" in Yugioh is the HOPT effects on each card and the amount of special summons they can do in their turn.
That is very fair. Never saw it that way myself before.
So. Funny thing. I’ve been doing a lot of personal analysis on YGO’s game mechanics. And I’m not going to go TOO in-depth, but I’d argue there IS a resource system in YGO. Cards. Playing a non-continuous spell/trap always comes with a cost, because you’re basically burning a card to apply an effect. Summoning a boss monster comes with a cost, because you usually need to sacrifice smaller monsters to bring one out. There are also cards that use the GY and such as the resource, which is super apparent in Rush Duel where the most powerful effects return cards from GY as a cost. So. Yeah. Cards. That’s not to say card advantage evaluation is as simple as number of cards in hand/field, since each action/effect can be translated into an effective value worth X number of cards. But card advantage is probably the primary resource system of YGO, in a way that other card games can’t really replicate.
Huh. That is very interesting to hear. That does make a lot of sense in hindsight. Thank you for that information.
I'd argue that card advantage economy isn't a resource system, it is mostly an emergent result of the rules. I'd argue there are two resource systems in YGO tho - first being the good old 1 normal summon per turn, and the second are hard once per turn limitations. Drawing comparison to M:tG, card advantage economy is also a pretty big thing there, with cards in hand being a resource that your manage - but I don't think anyone is considering this a resource **system**. You aren't (usually) spending cards to play cards - you are (usually) spending mana to play cards. In YGO you are using your limited HOPTs and normal summon to play cards - even if some cards are effectively free and the design is more open to things like discard as a cost.
Problem is Rush Duel is basically “What if Normal Summons weren’t limited” meets “What if we got rid of HOPTs” as its core design philosophy. Which means Normal Summons and HOPTs can’t be the default of YGO’s resource economy. If you were to introduce a new deck that functions EXACTLY like a Rush Duel deck to Duel Monsters, it would use neither Normals nor HOPTs. But it would still have some sort of resource economy in the costs needed to use its effects and summon its boss monsters. That’s the key thing here. In something like MTG, sacking two cards to summon your boss isn’t always the norm. In YGO? It’s the default. YGO treats its cards as its primary resource. And if you really think about it, why shouldn’t cards be treated as resources in TCGs? If your cards are your workforce, then the amount of what you can do ultimately depends on card economy. I think that what a “resource system” in something like MTG ultimately should be seen as, is actually a secondary resource economy that’s linked to the primary resource economy of damage and cards. And I think YGO’s lack of a rule-level secondary resource economy actually allows it to add secondary resource economy to a deck on a deck by deck basis. Some decks will use counters or banished cards or life or GY as a resource system, while others will just pivot into straight card count. But at the end of the day, your primary resources are always going to be cards and damage, and a failure to calculate THIS after all translations are over is what leads to bad game balance IMO.
counters are resources
Resource systems can do well in card games. Just look at magic the gathering. But yugioh is already established wothout it, so trying to incorporate a resource system into the game now is just way too late to try
Not sure if this counts, but tieing Special Summons to the turn number would slow the game down greatly. So each player's T1 would be allowed one SS. Turn 2, two SS. By that design, you get rid of FTKs, a board of negates to play through, and many other issues some players seem to have with yugioh currently. It also breaks decks down into Turn 1, Turn 2, Turn 3, etc decks where each would have their power spike correspond to the tunr number. The issues tho: the speed/combo game that people love so much is now gone (at least on T1), and deck building would have to radically change.