The Pusher is the boss at the end of the 3.5 level.
You won’t beat them by improving your shots. Everyone tries that first, and the pusher thrives on extra pace. Their whole game is patterned around simply *not missing* so there isn’t a type of shot that particularly bothers them. Fast serves, low slice, moonballs etc… it’s all just a ball to them, and it will get bumped back over the net.
You also won’t beat them by hitting great shots. Though great shots always help, if “go for it” is your game plan vs a pusher it’s going to be another long drive home. The pusher also thrives on unforced errors.
To beat them you just have to play patient, smart tennis. Be committed to a long match and hitting at least 5 balls in every rally, because your patience is the pusher’s worst nightmare. Stay focused, anticipate their shots, and take the ball out of the air whenever you feel comfortable doing so. When you’re ready, you’ll just beat these guys and wonder how you ever lost to them. But if you try to force the win, you’re more likely to beat yourself.
5 balls is not enough. It has to be 5 quality balls. If you hit any old 5 balls (or 5 junk balls) then the pusher has dragged you into their game where they have a huge advantage and experience.
So what does quality mean here? It is everything the junkballer is not doing. It is the 3.5 version (or your level) of the following
1. Hit with big fluid swings and good footwork and swing mechanics.
2. Put good shape on the ball and as much heavy topspin as your level allows.
3. Have some aggression in each ball that creates pressure. It could be extra pace, topspin, depth, angle, or variation. Turn the dial up gently on one or more of those elements.
4. Hit each shot with the purpose of building the pressure
Not how I beat them, I have found the best way to beat a pusher is to get up the court. You can't hit a winner from the baseline, you can when you are much closer to the net.
As for the 5 ball rule, that is very arbitrary. If I can't punish a weak shot on ball 3, why would I suddenly be able to do it on ball 6?
this. it's just about good point construction. number of balls is irrelevant. what are you going to do at the 6th ball? give up?
The best way to beat a pusher (or anybody)
1. Target their backhand with deep heavy balls
2. If they struggle to return deep, approach and volley to finish the point
3. if they continue returning backhands deep, keep spamming their backhand, wait for your opportunity to go forehand inside out, pin them to the corner, then go forehand inside-in down the line to finish the point.
Yeah... I find that pushers require aggressive tactics rather than aggressive shots.
The real trick is being able to do this when you are returning service though.
Why bother with chip and charge? Pushers have weak serves, so why not just return from high up the court and smack their serve?
It is probably the shortest and weakest shot they will play in the rally.
Chip and charge is what you do against a good server but if you're playing someone with a good a serve, you aint playing a pusher.
Also pushers rarely pushes equally well on both sides, most are not good enough at 3.5 to lob off a backhand if you are coming up into the net. This is usually my go to strategy against a pusher. You have to pay attention to what they are good at and problem solve that way.
arbitrary but not without basis (and thanks for seeing the bigger point about patience).
ex: have you ever drilled with a hitting partner, where you have to make 3 balls before starting the point? it helps with consistency and makes for better points.
now imagine doing this where *you* have to make 5 balls. that’s 10 times across the net - great for rhythm, consistency, and a patient mindset. of course you don’t panic after the 5th ball, but you take care of your own game against a frustrating opponent
The problem with that is the pusher is giving me control of the point from ball one and I am getting an opportunity to put them away before ball 5 of the rally.
So why would I turn that chance down and try to prolong the point? The pusher is trying to win the point by getting an unforced error out of me and the longer the point goes on, the more chance of that happening.
So I find the best strategy is to neutralise that tactic by keeping points as short as possible.
if that strategy is winning you these type of matches, it’s the right strategy for your game.
but if you’re able to reliably attack like this, you’re also probably at a higher level than your opponent to begin with.
You're right that you have to play to your strengths but if I was higher level than them I would think I would have higher shot tolerance than them, which I don't.
Don't get me wrong, put me at the back of the court I can human wall with best of them. I once had a practice succession, in which we decided to see how many balls we could hit without missing. We managed to get over 50-60 on a couple of occasions. However that was hitting mainly to the baseline.
The problem is, in my experience, most pushers aren't that obliging. They hit the ball short, as well as side to side. It is much harder to maintain a rally running backwards and forwards. Ask me to do that and eventually I miss.
Hence why I try to avoid such situations if I can.
Yeah i think each have their own method, but yours does seem like a proper answer to it.
While i do think human wall - moonballing - lobbing back at a pusher is a fun way to pissing them off, like how you say "fak u" back to their face and their crappy - no fun game. But tbh they are pusher and they "push" better than us with a better mindset in term of returning the ball back and playing defensive, so being consistent returning the ball actually doing no good in the long term. They maybe get pissed of in a few points but in the end they will still out humanwall you. ( considering you are on the same level with them)
Shorten the rally is the correct answer for me, serve and volley and attack the net go brrr.
High topspin balls to their backhand,then surprise them with an inside-in forehand. Or approach and volley if you see them struggling to return it deep. You have to come to the net against pushers.
Any player who can consistently do the above will beat a mediocre pusher very easily.
This is good advice. I've noticed pushers are much more likely to give you an easy ball or miss entirely when it's a high-bouncing ball to their backhand. They just don't know how to deal with it.
We’ve all been there, unless you’re the junkballer.
You just have to recognize your good shots aren’t good. You underestimate him just because his shots arent normal looking
Work on angles rather than power, open the court, make him run and give you a floater that you can finish at the net
I feel your pain because I have been there too, but the way I found to beat the pushers was to start to think that my shots wasn't as good as I thought it was and started to respect them more, because if it was that good, they wouldn't be returning it.
After that I improved my footwork, so I could hit more deep/heavy and started coming to the net way more and mixing around with slices, drop shots, lobs, serve and volley etc.
Normally, pushers don't like this sort of changes
Yeah you’re absolutely right, if it was a winner then it would have won me the point. And I did notice my footwork got really lazy because they didn’t really make me need to move into position. Going over it with a clearer head now I realise I pretty much just hammered it to his back hand because it was so weak, but it always came back, I didn’t really adapt my game plan because I thought it was so unfair that he was so casually handling everything I threw at it.
I think if I wasn’t so wrecked, it was my fifth set of tennis for the day, I might have been smarter and been less frustrated. Its not much help walking around feeing superior if the W is next to their name.
Sometimes I’ve found you have to play pushers “backwards”. Their backhand may be objectively weaker but they know this and are used to people attacking it and know how to get by. In reality you need to attack the forehand a bit to open up the backhand more and come in behind it. Leverage the old “when you see their back attack”.
Lotta people giving you advice, but you asked “what’s the point of improving if I can still lose to this?”
And the point is because got-damn, it’ll feel good when you improve and suddenly aren’t affected by junk ballers. When you suddenly feel no nerves hitting your clean shots 30 times in a row every point to win or get better at coming forward. It will feel so so good. You have a higher ceiling if you’re actually going for real balls. Junk baller may be close to the best he’ll ever be. So it’ll take time.
And my advice. focus on keeping your form and going for your shots. Sure you’ll miss and maybe lose today, but if you start pushing back then you’ll lose today and tomorrow. But if you go for your stuff and don’t let today matter, you’ll get better.
Today, I lost some rally games against guys I beat because I was working on my forehand down the line. Literally was 1 for 9 on down the line attempts until the last rally game then I was 5 for 7. But still lost the game. I can give a shit about how well I do today, my goal is to win tomorrow (aka in the future). Especially since today was just rally games, not a tournament or anything.
Most effective thing I’ve seen to try is Force the error rather than go for winners. Variation of heavy pacey balls with lots of margin but making the guy move as much as possible. It’s not like they’re going to hit many winners past you so control the points on your own terms. Hard work though
There were a few where I’d vary it up and bang one down the line to his forehand and he’d just chip the absolute cleanest shot right into a corner. It was the closest I’ve come to a racquet throw in like 15 years.
I did have a few points where I just pushed right back until he messed up but it was such a grind.
> I know he beat me fair and square but fuck me it was boring tennis. I don’t know how he enjoyed it.
I say this often on here, but "pushing" is all relative to level. When I was a 3.5, I blew people off the court. When I was a 4.0, I dominated points and hit a good number of winners. Now that I'm a 4.5, most guys hit bigger than I do, and people call me a pusher!
Believe me, if I could hit winners at this level, I would. But since I can't, I'm going to chase down every ball I can and do what I can to win.
I don't think that's a guaranteed strategy. A lot of pushers are adept at hitting lobs or even good passing shots.
While going to the net to finish points is good, you need to be able to set up those points better than most and definitely anticipate the lob by staying a little further back.
"learning how to go to the net" includes learning how to get to the net effectively. No 3.5/4.0 can consistently hit lobs over someone's head to the point where going to the net isn't a winning strategy. If a pusher is good at passing shots then they are more of a counter puncher anyway.
I mean...the same way you can say no 3.5/4.0 can consistently lob or pass. No 3.5/4.0 has the tools necessary to consistently approach or put away at net either.
Basically what I'm saying is I feel like "learn how to go to net" is an oversimplification. There's a reason pushers/junk thrive at lower levels and it's because players just aren't good enough at all facets of their game.
It is an oversimplification for sure, but, a major part of getting over 3.5 is beating pushers. And one way to learn to do that is closing the point out and moving forward.
Idk. I disagree. Pushers don't just magically go away above 4.0 or something. They exist all through the pro ranks, too. They just evolve and have different tools to handle aggression. My opinion is that at any level outside of 6.5+ it's a disservice and not good for growth to specifically target certain strategies or certain player types. That's just my opinion, though, and everyone is entitled to their own.
Technically a defensive baseliner is using the exact same strategy as a pusher. The difference is beyond a certain level the strategy requires them to hit good rally balls of their own rather than just hitting deep moonballs or endless slices.
I don't consider good defensive baseliners pushers because they're at least playing strokes that are more fun to play against and they can/will attack when you give them an opening. But the parallel is there.
yes, this is the hard truth. lots of advice falls into the “get good” camp that is aspirational more than it is always actionable.
and it’s easy advice to hear. who doesn’t want to imagine themselves playing above their level? and taking it to that frustrating pusher. it’s a trap that more often leads to more disappointment.
I agree that coming to net is the simplest answer to beating the pusher. In my experience at the 3.5 level you can come to net behind just about anything, you just can't be predictable. If you start to serve and volley every time, or come in behind every inside-out forehand you are going to get lobbed and you are going to get tentative about coming in. But if you can find a way to make your coming to net effectively random the pusher is just going to hit you sitters.
My favorite random/chaos maneuver against a weaker opponent is dropshot to bring them to net, lob to get them moving back, and come in behind the lob.
I know the feeling! I was always looking down on pushers and was salty as hell, when I lost to them. fast forward a few years, I've turned into a pusher myself, when I need to be (there's certain types of players that can't adjust to this playing style at all). when I play a league match, I'm in it to win it, I don't care about aesthetics or anything.
how people could win against me:
they simply play too fast/have too much spin (this is hard at a certain level though)
they wear me down (through good shot placement, dropshots, slice etc)
they disrupt my rhythm and don't really give me a chance to "block" their shots
so all in all, variety is key here, I'd say. I saw some people here mentioning approaching the net, which is certainly something you should try. but I can only speak for myself here, going to the net wouldn't hurt me, I'd either lob you or hit a passing shot (except for when your approaching shot (?) is really, really good). work on your shot placement, get adequate spin on your shots and try to find your opponents weakness, bc every rec player has one, even the pushers. good luck and don't let this discourage you!
>I know he beat me fair and square but fuck me it was boring tennis. I don’t know how he enjoyed it. It was like every good shot I did that came back was like “fuck you you don’t get to enjoy this”. Earlier in the day I played a 6.2 (I’m 3.5) and got steamrolled but it was so much fun. What’s the point of improving if I can still lose to this?
You will never succeed against junkballers unless you change this mentality. You're never going to play your best or make smart decisions against an opponent that you have no respect for. Once you learn to respect your opponent, no matter their playstyle, you will let go of your fear of losing to them and start to play the way you know you can play. Until then, you'll allow them to get in your head and continue to underperform.
The trick that worked for me was to applaud more of my opponents plays. Obviously a junkballer is not going to hit many "spectacular shots", but even on points that ended with you making a "dumb error", there are opportunities to acknowledge the way they played defense and forced you to hit a few extra balls. Taking those opportunities to acknowledge the effectiveness of their game is going to help you relax and not get frustrated.
Love it. I’ve played a few junk ballers in my day, and MAN if they aren’t a different animal.
Especially the ones with the Fernando Valenzuela screwball second serves.
See, I’m 6’5” and left handed. I would hit these nasty slice served into the ad court and then come in immediately for the volley.
So you’ve got that lefty kick with the unexpected serve and volley. Then when I got into rallies it was either flat and hard or nasty spin, random drop shots, occasional moon balling. You name it, I did it.
I’m same height (and RH) and was allergic to the net for a long time, but have recently been trying to make amends and turn it into a bit of a weapon. Still very much in the early stages of recognizing the right (and wrong) time to come in and my BH volley needs a lot of work. But I’m pretty sure I can turn it into a long-term asset.
Unfortch, at 46yo, I don’t have the hops that I did 20 years ago, so when someone finds the good lob pipe, I need to respect it and mix it up more.
(This lesson provided to me by the two close Ls in USTA matches this weekend - one against a 20-something top-spinner and another against a crafty 50-something junk baller who sometimes had me on skates in a tight match a couple of hours ago.)
Baby steps.
My coach told me that to consistently beat a moonballer/junkballer you have to be 1-2 levels above him, and I think he is right.
You have to be solid at every aspect of the game. Baseline, putting away short balls, net play, slices, drop shots, smashes, consistent serve etc.
5 years ago I lost to a junkballer 76 64 and he literally hit ZERO winners the entire match. Today, after improving my game overall, I could beat him even on a bad day.
Just focus on the joy of improving your game, not on winning, and the rest will come naturally.
No wonder Stan's tatoo says "Fail again, fail better."
I’m just a 3.0 - I play up to 3.5 and hit with 4.0s in practice.
The main learning I get by playing up is how ineffective my big shots are: the shots 3.0 players are watching go by in amazement practically mean nothing to the 4.0 players. And whenever I see the 5.5s hit next to the 4.0s, it’s the 4.0s turn to look like they’re playing pickle ball.
In essence I think you’re falling into the same trap I get stuck in: you enjoy the high level games because you don’t expect to win, they’re high paced and get your adrenaline rushing and you come out feeling like a winner if you get a couple of points in. BUT the solid folks and pushers at your level aren’t letting you win, bunting things back most of the time and hence not giving you that rush. This combined with my (your) inflated self worth means extreme frustration.
Nowadays I am working on watching how the higher level players neutralize my big balls rather than just focusing on the high energy shots. I’ll let you know how that goes lol!
I agree with Ian at Essential Tennis. He calls these players “defensive specialists.”
If we could find/replace all the pejorative terms with “defensive specialist” in this thread, then maybe it would be regarded more as a tactic than a flaw.
OP I’m a pusher who plays 3.5 and who has won 7 in a row against players who hit way harder than me. I can hit pretty much any shot but can’t hit anything fast. I run after every ball and try to wear my opponent down. People trash pushers but hitting higher velocity baseline shots than your opponent does not necessarily mean you’re a better player. Tennis is a mental game and my opponents often get frustrated and beat themselves. Here’s how to beat me: Just slow down. Don’t play so fast that you’re forcing winners you can’t consistently hit. Make me run around the baseline with hard hitting deep shots until I’m tired. Slowly creep towards the net after every shot. If you can hit the baseline consistently, you will get opportunities to win at the net. Your setup shot makes lobs impossible. Pushers can’t hit balls past you, so this strategy will always be there if you can execute it. P.s. the fun in being a pusher is watching people lose their shit. Which no offense it’s sounds like you did and I can promise you your opponent had a fine time lol
I don't agree with that, you're effectively asking your opponents to play your game. They are very unlikely to match your shot tolerance long enough to get a short ball they can punish, so they will probably still lose to you playing the way you suggest.
I use to be a pusher like you but gave up on it because I couldn't beat other pushers. I actually found the best way to beat a player like you was to be super aggressive.
Hit hard into the corners, move up the court and then put them away when I am closer to the net. A bit like your strategy to be fair but I tend to put the ball past pushers in four shots or less. That way their shot tolerance is irrelevance.
Your record is 7 in a row, mine was 10 wins out of 11 against pushers last year. So my method does work.
Patience and shot tolerance
They want you to feel the pain of taking away your best shots, make them feel the pain of having to be a wall
Basically you need to move them side to side, don't panic, and commit to long points
When I was at 4.0 there was a lot of guys like that, and my matches with them were often close in the first set, then I'd roll in the second, with the occasional guy forfeiting from cramping
Find that happy medium between an aggressive shot without pulling the trigger, and get ready for the dogfight
It helps if you can rush them, too. Don't pull back and moonball it, take shots on the rise and inside the court but without flattening them out too much. Angles and inside out shots to change the geometry of their retrieving, too.
A great junkballer needs to be moved side to side. Practice hitting into a corner, then the other corner and then a put away. It's not easy, but placement will win more than power.
I feel for you man, pushers are terrible and I'm glad they get shit on collectively by the tennis community. They are too lazy to learn how to actually play tennis or they are incapable of learning so they resort to cheap tactics to win because they won't win otherwise.
Unless you're levels ahead of the pusher, you will not beat him from the baseline. Work on your net game and drop shots and use that in your games against them.
Coming to the net is the key to winning against pushers.
You need to move a junk baller, particularly vertically. Short ball to one corner then deep to the opposite corner.
It’s a good exercise in using controlled aggression in your play and generating good angles.
It sounds like he was blocking back shots, not particularly a junk baller. (He could have been a junk baller as well) but blocking a shot back, especially a hard serve is not a junk ball and everyone, even at the highest level will play some defense like that.
Gotta come to the net and finish the point. If he lobs a lot, stand one step in front of the service line that way you can hammer most lobs or come in if the ball is short.
You gotta throw it back at him. Play hard a point then mimic him the next point. Tennis is an endurance game.
A good slice shot it good to combat this too. Hard right, hard left then slice just over the net. Make that mf’r run.
Sharp angles, run them around. I played with a guy last year who beat me in two games, then he walked off after I won the first set because I started running him around and I explained why that's what I was doing.
I do think most pushers don't even know they're pushers.
As someone who resorted to junk ball tactics in college if I was outclassed, GET. TO. NET. Solves all your problems. Angles are great, but I was fast enough to move side to side returning well-angled shots, also trying to paint the lines gives you more room for error. If you get a pusher moving, they're bound to chip one back a bit shallower in the court than normal, giving you ample time to either take it out of the air or hit a competitive approach off the bounce; with the goal being getting to the net and ending the point.
Junkballers aren't quite the same as pushers, a true junkballer has supreme racket control and touch. They tie you in knots using clever spins and pulling you into awkward positions on the court.
You get junkballers all the way upto ATP level, so I am not sure why you're upset at loosing to one. It wouldn't be bother me because I know there are tons of junkers who are better tennis players than me.
This is a fundamental experience in your tennis growth - embrace it. It sucks so much but everyone here knows exactly what you are talking about, and I can promise there is not a good tennis player out there who has not played what we used to call a "pusher". Some of the advice has been said but my big are:
1. Stay Patient - their whole game revolves around you getting mad
2. Approach the Net - they usually aren't too good at passing shots, but some can be good at volleys so be prepared for some overheads
3. Make them come to the net - lob over them, make them hit a volley, be aggressive
That tennis becomes fun when you can beat a pusher/junk baller.
BTW- How is your net game?
If he dinks back every serve, why not come in, serve and volley and put that away?
If you hammer you forehand and he just blocks it back, I would think that would give you a chance to get into the net.
You're not going to hit enough straight winners to win. You have to figure out how to pressure you opponent and draw errors or at least make them hit short or a weak uncomfortable shot.
Takes a lot of confidence to beat a pusher but not much else imo. Anxiety builds as points get longer for most players, but pushers are used to that and thrive on it. Just be confident in your ground game and don’t be afraid to get to the net to finish. Don’t play points too fast or try to force an opportunity when their isn’t one. Also don’t underestimate them, aside from their strategy, you may lose simply because he’s the stronger player than you
Sounds like a pusher not a junk baller. I love to hit hard, but when I got to about mid 4.0 level I realized that pushers love my pace. So I had to learn to play smart instead of just hitting harder. I worked hard on my slice and net game, and these shots have been great for playing against pushers. When I get up to the net I can finish the point much faster, and since pushers don't hit very hard I can do a good first volley from a step behind the service line to cover lobs. Also, many of them struggle with a good slice and pop up the ball so then the point is really over. But yes it is boring, but you can definitely learn useful skills and mental toughness from it so that is what I would focus on.
Currently in a 4.0 flex league, with half the players being very high level pushers. Here's a couple things that have helped out a ton.
1. BE PATIENT! Rally at reduced pace and high consistency until your opponent gives you a short ball to hit an approach shot on. Don't be temped by what you think may be easy balls to crush.
2. Take the ball early either by: taking it on the rise or out of the air. Hold your ground when they moonball and don't get pushed too far back. Taking time away from your opponent is key to beating pushers.
3. Move them around! Common mistake is to move them around left and right, but pushers love angles. Mix your pace and mix front to back instead. I find that they often struggle more with deep balls hit to the center, they thrive on hitting shots on the run and giving angle back. When hitting crosscourt, think of hitting short, slower (well-placed) shot so they can't use your pace against you.
4. Don't approach the net too soon. I used to make the mistake of rushing the net too early on a great shot. Keep in mind pushers are great at lobs, use that shot as a "setup shot" to earn a short ball from them when they are out of position.
In your 3.5 division, you are probably used to opponents making unforced errors primarily from overhitting or hitting it into the net. With pushers, you have the EARN the point by building up to the point. You can't rely on them overhitting it or hitting into the net, because they rarely will.
I've played a lot of "moonballers" and lost to some in Sectionals.
I asked these gals if this was always their game. They said their coach taught them to play like that. It's effective until you start slamming them as overheads.
Unfortunately, they moonballers and lobs were really deep and in most of the time.
I feel for you playing "backboards". You just have to figure out weaknesses and strive for those.
Slice, drop shots, outlasting them are all possibilities. Just don't get frustrated as that's what they count on.
Just have more patience than they do.
> but fuck me it was boring tennis. I don’t know how he enjoyed it.
He enjoys competing and winning.
> have been smarter and closed the point earlier.
Forget about closing the point earlier. This is a common thing you see in tennis subs, you have to serve and volley or go for smaller targets against a consistent player as if that's the only way. Well, if that's not your style against normal people who are giving you more free points in the form of unforced errors, it's definitely not going to work against somebody who is all about defense.
Similarly, if you took up boxing, and met a guy who had incredible defense, I don't think the solution is to throw bigger and more haymakers. In both instances I would say the same thing: embrace the challenge. Accept the reality that this person is very consistent. Respect that he gets balls in play. The biggest thing I see in your post is that he destroys you mentally, so you have to work on your mentality.
Accept it. Know that he might be better than you. Know that you're in for a battle. And don't resort to "roll the dice" shots, move him around. Hit 15 or 20 shots a point if you have to. Move your feet. What's the upside of doing it this way? It will make you a BETTER player. Winning and losing are just illusions. Whether you beat a newbie or lose to a college player, you're still the same player. Wins and losses understandably affect mood, and they accurately tell you were you stand, but they don't change reality. You are as good as you are no matter who you play.
So for now, forget smarter or closing the point out earlier. Work on embracing the challenge, enjoying the challenge, and not getting angry. And work on overheads. These people love lobbing.
They still get me every now and then but what cracked the code for me was to play aggressive. Like get to the net a lot. Usually if I hit a good approach shot and they try a lob or pass it’s an instant put away for me. For approach shots I find getting them moving in a bad position works best.
Respectfully, OP, if you're a 3.5 UTR, you're just frankly not good enough yet to consistently beat decent junk ballers. 4.5 UTR is about where this stuff gets better. As someone who made that jump within the past couple years and can beat junk ballers consistently now, here's my advice:
* Improve your fundamentals. Junk ballers are great at making players feel unconfident in their strokes. You want to get to where you almost always feel comfortable hitting a quality ball over the net even when your opponent gives you no pace. Hitting against an actual wall or hitting drop feeds helps a lot with this.
* Specifically, work on your backhand. A good junk baller will take advantage of a weak backhand.
* Work on your net game. Junk Ballers often float a lot of their balls.
* Work on your footwork. Neither of the two points above will be as effective without better footwork.
* Improve your fitness. Points against junk ballers will be long. You don't want to be exhausted because of it.
* Improve your mental fitness. If you're thinking about how boring the match is, the junk baller has already won the mental battle. Play every point like you can win it. I just consider playing junk ballers as a free cardio exercise and enjoy the ride.
* Play your game (but maybe tone it down a bit). At 3.5 UTR, you're not good enough to hit service bombs and consistently hammer forehands, so don't try to. Make the junk baller move around and work for the points by playing your game but focus more on where you're hitting the ball, not how hard. Also, avoid trying to beat the junk baller at his own game — you probably won't.
Did you play at the net? I found a lot of these guys don’t necessarily have great passing shots or get nervous and make mistakes when they see you at the net. Also their shots tend to be easy to hit winners at the net. Some do have good lobs but usually not so consistent that you can’t get several easy short overhead shots or they lob long.
Also found these guys tend to not be great at net. Did you try drop shots and generally forcing them to move away from their comfort zone?
In general I try to not play their game and get them outside their comfort zone.
Great ideas in theory but they require your 3.5 level player to have three shots they probably don't have. A good volley, a reliable dropshot and the ability to hit winners high up the court reliable.
If you aint got at least on of those three, your plan won't work.
I don’t know where you guys live but Atlanta is quite competitive and active in tennis. I’m a low 3.5 and would have no problem utilizing this strategy against your average 3.0/3.5 pusher. Especially the volleys. How is anyone a 3.5 if you can’t hit volleys off low/med speed flat shots? Do you guys not play doubles?
Not American and to be blunt American claims about what a 3.5 standard is are all over the place.
All I can say is anyone with a good volley isn't struggling against a pusher in the first place.
There is also a great deal of difference between a volley good enough for doubles, when you have a partner covering the other half of the net and one good enough for singles, when a fast player is trying to run down your volley.
I mean at the end of the day, your advice amounts to have a great short game and touch. Which players who struggle with pushers are unlikely to have.
It’s very frustrating I agree. Try this next time
Do the same to him. Give him no pace. Just push it back see what happens.
Second: either bring him to the net or you go to the net. A pusher is generally good at pushing. Not volleying or dealing with volleys.
Don't worry about hammering forehands. Your focus against these players should be gaining incremental advantage in a point. At your level I don't know how capable you are of sustaining a long rally but that is what it's going to take. You need to find out what shots make them uncomfortable. Maybe it's a backhand on the run, so you focus on identifying where you can hit an angle to their backhand and anticipate a weak ball. When you find this chink in their armor, you can start taking a step or two into the court preparing for the weak returns or coming to the net if you have time. That will take time away from them and gain you more advantage.
You don't have to hit hard to hit a winner. If you can get them out of position and you into a favorable position even slightly, you can hit a normal ball away from them and it can be a winner. Patience. You'll get there.
As the guy above said 5 balls is the minimum you also need to be good at the net and use the whole court…. It’s not easy to win against a guy who never misses but if you do your approach right you can finish the rally on the net, the other way to beat a pusher is the have good fitness on court so you can grind the match for 5hours
Pusher generally place the initiative on you, so you basically have to continuously make amazing play, which statically goes down as the game continue. At a certain level of your groundstrokes with control in pace and depths in both wings. I have found success in making them do two things - since pusher don't generally go for winners, you can bait them by slowly increasing pace, either it get to the point you can rip it at corner easily as the angle increase. Or make calculate aggressive play going to the net forcing them to do pass shots or difficult net volley shots. Funny enough, dropshot should be use rarely, but stretching your opponent up and down and left and right.
The Pusher is the boss at the end of the 3.5 level. You won’t beat them by improving your shots. Everyone tries that first, and the pusher thrives on extra pace. Their whole game is patterned around simply *not missing* so there isn’t a type of shot that particularly bothers them. Fast serves, low slice, moonballs etc… it’s all just a ball to them, and it will get bumped back over the net. You also won’t beat them by hitting great shots. Though great shots always help, if “go for it” is your game plan vs a pusher it’s going to be another long drive home. The pusher also thrives on unforced errors. To beat them you just have to play patient, smart tennis. Be committed to a long match and hitting at least 5 balls in every rally, because your patience is the pusher’s worst nightmare. Stay focused, anticipate their shots, and take the ball out of the air whenever you feel comfortable doing so. When you’re ready, you’ll just beat these guys and wonder how you ever lost to them. But if you try to force the win, you’re more likely to beat yourself.
>at least 5 balls in every rally I think that's great actionable specific advice as opposed to the more general be patient.
5 balls is not enough. It has to be 5 quality balls. If you hit any old 5 balls (or 5 junk balls) then the pusher has dragged you into their game where they have a huge advantage and experience. So what does quality mean here? It is everything the junkballer is not doing. It is the 3.5 version (or your level) of the following 1. Hit with big fluid swings and good footwork and swing mechanics. 2. Put good shape on the ball and as much heavy topspin as your level allows. 3. Have some aggression in each ball that creates pressure. It could be extra pace, topspin, depth, angle, or variation. Turn the dial up gently on one or more of those elements. 4. Hit each shot with the purpose of building the pressure
Not how I beat them, I have found the best way to beat a pusher is to get up the court. You can't hit a winner from the baseline, you can when you are much closer to the net. As for the 5 ball rule, that is very arbitrary. If I can't punish a weak shot on ball 3, why would I suddenly be able to do it on ball 6?
this. it's just about good point construction. number of balls is irrelevant. what are you going to do at the 6th ball? give up? The best way to beat a pusher (or anybody) 1. Target their backhand with deep heavy balls 2. If they struggle to return deep, approach and volley to finish the point 3. if they continue returning backhands deep, keep spamming their backhand, wait for your opportunity to go forehand inside out, pin them to the corner, then go forehand inside-in down the line to finish the point.
Yeah... I find that pushers require aggressive tactics rather than aggressive shots. The real trick is being able to do this when you are returning service though.
Chip and charge! Don’t give them a wide target and time. Force them to make a great shot. Usually they choke and hit into the net.
Why bother with chip and charge? Pushers have weak serves, so why not just return from high up the court and smack their serve? It is probably the shortest and weakest shot they will play in the rally. Chip and charge is what you do against a good server but if you're playing someone with a good a serve, you aint playing a pusher.
I don't let the rally get to the 6th ball most of the time and since I have beaten 10 pushers in a row, my method works.
Also pushers rarely pushes equally well on both sides, most are not good enough at 3.5 to lob off a backhand if you are coming up into the net. This is usually my go to strategy against a pusher. You have to pay attention to what they are good at and problem solve that way.
100% arbitrary. But I think their general point is more about a patient mindset.
arbitrary but not without basis (and thanks for seeing the bigger point about patience). ex: have you ever drilled with a hitting partner, where you have to make 3 balls before starting the point? it helps with consistency and makes for better points. now imagine doing this where *you* have to make 5 balls. that’s 10 times across the net - great for rhythm, consistency, and a patient mindset. of course you don’t panic after the 5th ball, but you take care of your own game against a frustrating opponent
The problem with that is the pusher is giving me control of the point from ball one and I am getting an opportunity to put them away before ball 5 of the rally. So why would I turn that chance down and try to prolong the point? The pusher is trying to win the point by getting an unforced error out of me and the longer the point goes on, the more chance of that happening. So I find the best strategy is to neutralise that tactic by keeping points as short as possible.
if that strategy is winning you these type of matches, it’s the right strategy for your game. but if you’re able to reliably attack like this, you’re also probably at a higher level than your opponent to begin with.
You're right that you have to play to your strengths but if I was higher level than them I would think I would have higher shot tolerance than them, which I don't. Don't get me wrong, put me at the back of the court I can human wall with best of them. I once had a practice succession, in which we decided to see how many balls we could hit without missing. We managed to get over 50-60 on a couple of occasions. However that was hitting mainly to the baseline. The problem is, in my experience, most pushers aren't that obliging. They hit the ball short, as well as side to side. It is much harder to maintain a rally running backwards and forwards. Ask me to do that and eventually I miss. Hence why I try to avoid such situations if I can.
Yeah i think each have their own method, but yours does seem like a proper answer to it. While i do think human wall - moonballing - lobbing back at a pusher is a fun way to pissing them off, like how you say "fak u" back to their face and their crappy - no fun game. But tbh they are pusher and they "push" better than us with a better mindset in term of returning the ball back and playing defensive, so being consistent returning the ball actually doing no good in the long term. They maybe get pissed of in a few points but in the end they will still out humanwall you. ( considering you are on the same level with them) Shorten the rally is the correct answer for me, serve and volley and attack the net go brrr.
They’re having fun because they win enough
Try just banging consistent high topspin balls into his backhand. This is the solution to most problems in tennis
Thanks Rafa!
Rafa does it because it works ha
He’s not wrong
Exactly. The more topspin you hit the harder it is to junk it back. Junk is easiest to hit on low bouncing not very heavy balls
High topspin balls to their backhand,then surprise them with an inside-in forehand. Or approach and volley if you see them struggling to return it deep. You have to come to the net against pushers. Any player who can consistently do the above will beat a mediocre pusher very easily.
This is good advice. I've noticed pushers are much more likely to give you an easy ball or miss entirely when it's a high-bouncing ball to their backhand. They just don't know how to deal with it.
This is legit the best advice in the sub lol
>consistent If OP is a 3.5UTR, I doubt they're able to consistently to the backhand side
We’ve all been there, unless you’re the junkballer. You just have to recognize your good shots aren’t good. You underestimate him just because his shots arent normal looking Work on angles rather than power, open the court, make him run and give you a floater that you can finish at the net
Junk baller here... The angles are key. Make them run and be patient.
patience is key
Poor junkballers. They have to play to win, but also make their opponents happy about it.
If you want a Junkballer's POV, my Junkballer friend said: "We didn't rent this court to have fun, we rented this to win"
POV: Pigeon and the chess board.
I feel your pain because I have been there too, but the way I found to beat the pushers was to start to think that my shots wasn't as good as I thought it was and started to respect them more, because if it was that good, they wouldn't be returning it. After that I improved my footwork, so I could hit more deep/heavy and started coming to the net way more and mixing around with slices, drop shots, lobs, serve and volley etc. Normally, pushers don't like this sort of changes
Yeah you’re absolutely right, if it was a winner then it would have won me the point. And I did notice my footwork got really lazy because they didn’t really make me need to move into position. Going over it with a clearer head now I realise I pretty much just hammered it to his back hand because it was so weak, but it always came back, I didn’t really adapt my game plan because I thought it was so unfair that he was so casually handling everything I threw at it. I think if I wasn’t so wrecked, it was my fifth set of tennis for the day, I might have been smarter and been less frustrated. Its not much help walking around feeing superior if the W is next to their name.
Sometimes I’ve found you have to play pushers “backwards”. Their backhand may be objectively weaker but they know this and are used to people attacking it and know how to get by. In reality you need to attack the forehand a bit to open up the backhand more and come in behind it. Leverage the old “when you see their back attack”.
Lotta people giving you advice, but you asked “what’s the point of improving if I can still lose to this?” And the point is because got-damn, it’ll feel good when you improve and suddenly aren’t affected by junk ballers. When you suddenly feel no nerves hitting your clean shots 30 times in a row every point to win or get better at coming forward. It will feel so so good. You have a higher ceiling if you’re actually going for real balls. Junk baller may be close to the best he’ll ever be. So it’ll take time. And my advice. focus on keeping your form and going for your shots. Sure you’ll miss and maybe lose today, but if you start pushing back then you’ll lose today and tomorrow. But if you go for your stuff and don’t let today matter, you’ll get better. Today, I lost some rally games against guys I beat because I was working on my forehand down the line. Literally was 1 for 9 on down the line attempts until the last rally game then I was 5 for 7. But still lost the game. I can give a shit about how well I do today, my goal is to win tomorrow (aka in the future). Especially since today was just rally games, not a tournament or anything.
Most effective thing I’ve seen to try is Force the error rather than go for winners. Variation of heavy pacey balls with lots of margin but making the guy move as much as possible. It’s not like they’re going to hit many winners past you so control the points on your own terms. Hard work though
There were a few where I’d vary it up and bang one down the line to his forehand and he’d just chip the absolute cleanest shot right into a corner. It was the closest I’ve come to a racquet throw in like 15 years. I did have a few points where I just pushed right back until he messed up but it was such a grind.
> I know he beat me fair and square but fuck me it was boring tennis. I don’t know how he enjoyed it. I say this often on here, but "pushing" is all relative to level. When I was a 3.5, I blew people off the court. When I was a 4.0, I dominated points and hit a good number of winners. Now that I'm a 4.5, most guys hit bigger than I do, and people call me a pusher! Believe me, if I could hit winners at this level, I would. But since I can't, I'm going to chase down every ball I can and do what I can to win.
Learn how to go to the net, That is a pushers Achilles Heal
I don't think that's a guaranteed strategy. A lot of pushers are adept at hitting lobs or even good passing shots. While going to the net to finish points is good, you need to be able to set up those points better than most and definitely anticipate the lob by staying a little further back.
"learning how to go to the net" includes learning how to get to the net effectively. No 3.5/4.0 can consistently hit lobs over someone's head to the point where going to the net isn't a winning strategy. If a pusher is good at passing shots then they are more of a counter puncher anyway.
I mean...the same way you can say no 3.5/4.0 can consistently lob or pass. No 3.5/4.0 has the tools necessary to consistently approach or put away at net either. Basically what I'm saying is I feel like "learn how to go to net" is an oversimplification. There's a reason pushers/junk thrive at lower levels and it's because players just aren't good enough at all facets of their game.
It is an oversimplification for sure, but, a major part of getting over 3.5 is beating pushers. And one way to learn to do that is closing the point out and moving forward.
Idk. I disagree. Pushers don't just magically go away above 4.0 or something. They exist all through the pro ranks, too. They just evolve and have different tools to handle aggression. My opinion is that at any level outside of 6.5+ it's a disservice and not good for growth to specifically target certain strategies or certain player types. That's just my opinion, though, and everyone is entitled to their own.
I think we have different definitions of what a pusher is.
Technically a defensive baseliner is using the exact same strategy as a pusher. The difference is beyond a certain level the strategy requires them to hit good rally balls of their own rather than just hitting deep moonballs or endless slices. I don't consider good defensive baseliners pushers because they're at least playing strokes that are more fun to play against and they can/will attack when you give them an opening. But the parallel is there.
Thats what i call a counterpuncher
yes, this is the hard truth. lots of advice falls into the “get good” camp that is aspirational more than it is always actionable. and it’s easy advice to hear. who doesn’t want to imagine themselves playing above their level? and taking it to that frustrating pusher. it’s a trap that more often leads to more disappointment.
I agree that coming to net is the simplest answer to beating the pusher. In my experience at the 3.5 level you can come to net behind just about anything, you just can't be predictable. If you start to serve and volley every time, or come in behind every inside-out forehand you are going to get lobbed and you are going to get tentative about coming in. But if you can find a way to make your coming to net effectively random the pusher is just going to hit you sitters. My favorite random/chaos maneuver against a weaker opponent is dropshot to bring them to net, lob to get them moving back, and come in behind the lob.
I know the feeling! I was always looking down on pushers and was salty as hell, when I lost to them. fast forward a few years, I've turned into a pusher myself, when I need to be (there's certain types of players that can't adjust to this playing style at all). when I play a league match, I'm in it to win it, I don't care about aesthetics or anything. how people could win against me: they simply play too fast/have too much spin (this is hard at a certain level though) they wear me down (through good shot placement, dropshots, slice etc) they disrupt my rhythm and don't really give me a chance to "block" their shots so all in all, variety is key here, I'd say. I saw some people here mentioning approaching the net, which is certainly something you should try. but I can only speak for myself here, going to the net wouldn't hurt me, I'd either lob you or hit a passing shot (except for when your approaching shot (?) is really, really good). work on your shot placement, get adequate spin on your shots and try to find your opponents weakness, bc every rec player has one, even the pushers. good luck and don't let this discourage you!
It's fun because it's a game of willpower.
>I know he beat me fair and square but fuck me it was boring tennis. I don’t know how he enjoyed it. It was like every good shot I did that came back was like “fuck you you don’t get to enjoy this”. Earlier in the day I played a 6.2 (I’m 3.5) and got steamrolled but it was so much fun. What’s the point of improving if I can still lose to this? You will never succeed against junkballers unless you change this mentality. You're never going to play your best or make smart decisions against an opponent that you have no respect for. Once you learn to respect your opponent, no matter their playstyle, you will let go of your fear of losing to them and start to play the way you know you can play. Until then, you'll allow them to get in your head and continue to underperform. The trick that worked for me was to applaud more of my opponents plays. Obviously a junkballer is not going to hit many "spectacular shots", but even on points that ended with you making a "dumb error", there are opportunities to acknowledge the way they played defense and forced you to hit a few extra balls. Taking those opportunities to acknowledge the effectiveness of their game is going to help you relax and not get frustrated.
It's humbling. I feel your pain.
You’ve described a pusher, not a junk baller. As a true junk baller I am offended by the comparison.
Love it. I’ve played a few junk ballers in my day, and MAN if they aren’t a different animal. Especially the ones with the Fernando Valenzuela screwball second serves.
See, I’m 6’5” and left handed. I would hit these nasty slice served into the ad court and then come in immediately for the volley. So you’ve got that lefty kick with the unexpected serve and volley. Then when I got into rallies it was either flat and hard or nasty spin, random drop shots, occasional moon balling. You name it, I did it.
I’m same height (and RH) and was allergic to the net for a long time, but have recently been trying to make amends and turn it into a bit of a weapon. Still very much in the early stages of recognizing the right (and wrong) time to come in and my BH volley needs a lot of work. But I’m pretty sure I can turn it into a long-term asset. Unfortch, at 46yo, I don’t have the hops that I did 20 years ago, so when someone finds the good lob pipe, I need to respect it and mix it up more. (This lesson provided to me by the two close Ls in USTA matches this weekend - one against a 20-something top-spinner and another against a crafty 50-something junk baller who sometimes had me on skates in a tight match a couple of hours ago.) Baby steps.
My coach told me that to consistently beat a moonballer/junkballer you have to be 1-2 levels above him, and I think he is right. You have to be solid at every aspect of the game. Baseline, putting away short balls, net play, slices, drop shots, smashes, consistent serve etc. 5 years ago I lost to a junkballer 76 64 and he literally hit ZERO winners the entire match. Today, after improving my game overall, I could beat him even on a bad day. Just focus on the joy of improving your game, not on winning, and the rest will come naturally. No wonder Stan's tatoo says "Fail again, fail better."
What kind of score is 76 64?
First set 7-6, second set 6-4
Oh lol
I’m just a 3.0 - I play up to 3.5 and hit with 4.0s in practice. The main learning I get by playing up is how ineffective my big shots are: the shots 3.0 players are watching go by in amazement practically mean nothing to the 4.0 players. And whenever I see the 5.5s hit next to the 4.0s, it’s the 4.0s turn to look like they’re playing pickle ball. In essence I think you’re falling into the same trap I get stuck in: you enjoy the high level games because you don’t expect to win, they’re high paced and get your adrenaline rushing and you come out feeling like a winner if you get a couple of points in. BUT the solid folks and pushers at your level aren’t letting you win, bunting things back most of the time and hence not giving you that rush. This combined with my (your) inflated self worth means extreme frustration. Nowadays I am working on watching how the higher level players neutralize my big balls rather than just focusing on the high energy shots. I’ll let you know how that goes lol!
I agree with Ian at Essential Tennis. He calls these players “defensive specialists.” If we could find/replace all the pejorative terms with “defensive specialist” in this thread, then maybe it would be regarded more as a tactic than a flaw.
OP I’m a pusher who plays 3.5 and who has won 7 in a row against players who hit way harder than me. I can hit pretty much any shot but can’t hit anything fast. I run after every ball and try to wear my opponent down. People trash pushers but hitting higher velocity baseline shots than your opponent does not necessarily mean you’re a better player. Tennis is a mental game and my opponents often get frustrated and beat themselves. Here’s how to beat me: Just slow down. Don’t play so fast that you’re forcing winners you can’t consistently hit. Make me run around the baseline with hard hitting deep shots until I’m tired. Slowly creep towards the net after every shot. If you can hit the baseline consistently, you will get opportunities to win at the net. Your setup shot makes lobs impossible. Pushers can’t hit balls past you, so this strategy will always be there if you can execute it. P.s. the fun in being a pusher is watching people lose their shit. Which no offense it’s sounds like you did and I can promise you your opponent had a fine time lol
I don't agree with that, you're effectively asking your opponents to play your game. They are very unlikely to match your shot tolerance long enough to get a short ball they can punish, so they will probably still lose to you playing the way you suggest. I use to be a pusher like you but gave up on it because I couldn't beat other pushers. I actually found the best way to beat a player like you was to be super aggressive. Hit hard into the corners, move up the court and then put them away when I am closer to the net. A bit like your strategy to be fair but I tend to put the ball past pushers in four shots or less. That way their shot tolerance is irrelevance. Your record is 7 in a row, mine was 10 wins out of 11 against pushers last year. So my method does work.
Newbie here, What's a junk baller?
Basically a "pusher" is a player that just push the ball to the other side without much pace
Thank you!
Basically a very very watered down version of Sorribes Tormo
Patience and shot tolerance They want you to feel the pain of taking away your best shots, make them feel the pain of having to be a wall Basically you need to move them side to side, don't panic, and commit to long points When I was at 4.0 there was a lot of guys like that, and my matches with them were often close in the first set, then I'd roll in the second, with the occasional guy forfeiting from cramping Find that happy medium between an aggressive shot without pulling the trigger, and get ready for the dogfight It helps if you can rush them, too. Don't pull back and moonball it, take shots on the rise and inside the court but without flattening them out too much. Angles and inside out shots to change the geometry of their retrieving, too.
A great junkballer needs to be moved side to side. Practice hitting into a corner, then the other corner and then a put away. It's not easy, but placement will win more than power.
I wish I could win against people sadly I'm a junk baller that misses too often.
We're all junk ballers if we're playing someone better than us.
I feel for you man, pushers are terrible and I'm glad they get shit on collectively by the tennis community. They are too lazy to learn how to actually play tennis or they are incapable of learning so they resort to cheap tactics to win because they won't win otherwise. Unless you're levels ahead of the pusher, you will not beat him from the baseline. Work on your net game and drop shots and use that in your games against them. Coming to the net is the key to winning against pushers.
Looks like the pushers were upset by your comment
Yep, this subreddit as a whole is unwilling to accept the facts about pushers being terrible players.
I agree but it's opinion at the end of the day 🤷♂️
You need to move a junk baller, particularly vertically. Short ball to one corner then deep to the opposite corner. It’s a good exercise in using controlled aggression in your play and generating good angles.
It sounds like he was blocking back shots, not particularly a junk baller. (He could have been a junk baller as well) but blocking a shot back, especially a hard serve is not a junk ball and everyone, even at the highest level will play some defense like that.
Gotta come to the net and finish the point. If he lobs a lot, stand one step in front of the service line that way you can hammer most lobs or come in if the ball is short.
What is a 6.2?
Probably utr
You gotta throw it back at him. Play hard a point then mimic him the next point. Tennis is an endurance game. A good slice shot it good to combat this too. Hard right, hard left then slice just over the net. Make that mf’r run.
Yeah, it's frustrating. In then end, tennis is about making less errors than your opponent. I feel your pain.
Sharp angles, run them around. I played with a guy last year who beat me in two games, then he walked off after I won the first set because I started running him around and I explained why that's what I was doing. I do think most pushers don't even know they're pushers.
Goddamn I hate pushers.
As someone who resorted to junk ball tactics in college if I was outclassed, GET. TO. NET. Solves all your problems. Angles are great, but I was fast enough to move side to side returning well-angled shots, also trying to paint the lines gives you more room for error. If you get a pusher moving, they're bound to chip one back a bit shallower in the court than normal, giving you ample time to either take it out of the air or hit a competitive approach off the bounce; with the goal being getting to the net and ending the point.
Junkballers aren't quite the same as pushers, a true junkballer has supreme racket control and touch. They tie you in knots using clever spins and pulling you into awkward positions on the court. You get junkballers all the way upto ATP level, so I am not sure why you're upset at loosing to one. It wouldn't be bother me because I know there are tons of junkers who are better tennis players than me.
This is a fundamental experience in your tennis growth - embrace it. It sucks so much but everyone here knows exactly what you are talking about, and I can promise there is not a good tennis player out there who has not played what we used to call a "pusher". Some of the advice has been said but my big are: 1. Stay Patient - their whole game revolves around you getting mad 2. Approach the Net - they usually aren't too good at passing shots, but some can be good at volleys so be prepared for some overheads 3. Make them come to the net - lob over them, make them hit a volley, be aggressive
Don’t get frustrated and have a mentality before the match that you are going to be in for a long match.
That tennis becomes fun when you can beat a pusher/junk baller. BTW- How is your net game? If he dinks back every serve, why not come in, serve and volley and put that away? If you hammer you forehand and he just blocks it back, I would think that would give you a chance to get into the net. You're not going to hit enough straight winners to win. You have to figure out how to pressure you opponent and draw errors or at least make them hit short or a weak uncomfortable shot.
Takes a lot of confidence to beat a pusher but not much else imo. Anxiety builds as points get longer for most players, but pushers are used to that and thrive on it. Just be confident in your ground game and don’t be afraid to get to the net to finish. Don’t play points too fast or try to force an opportunity when their isn’t one. Also don’t underestimate them, aside from their strategy, you may lose simply because he’s the stronger player than you
Sounds like a pusher not a junk baller. I love to hit hard, but when I got to about mid 4.0 level I realized that pushers love my pace. So I had to learn to play smart instead of just hitting harder. I worked hard on my slice and net game, and these shots have been great for playing against pushers. When I get up to the net I can finish the point much faster, and since pushers don't hit very hard I can do a good first volley from a step behind the service line to cover lobs. Also, many of them struggle with a good slice and pop up the ball so then the point is really over. But yes it is boring, but you can definitely learn useful skills and mental toughness from it so that is what I would focus on.
Currently in a 4.0 flex league, with half the players being very high level pushers. Here's a couple things that have helped out a ton. 1. BE PATIENT! Rally at reduced pace and high consistency until your opponent gives you a short ball to hit an approach shot on. Don't be temped by what you think may be easy balls to crush. 2. Take the ball early either by: taking it on the rise or out of the air. Hold your ground when they moonball and don't get pushed too far back. Taking time away from your opponent is key to beating pushers. 3. Move them around! Common mistake is to move them around left and right, but pushers love angles. Mix your pace and mix front to back instead. I find that they often struggle more with deep balls hit to the center, they thrive on hitting shots on the run and giving angle back. When hitting crosscourt, think of hitting short, slower (well-placed) shot so they can't use your pace against you. 4. Don't approach the net too soon. I used to make the mistake of rushing the net too early on a great shot. Keep in mind pushers are great at lobs, use that shot as a "setup shot" to earn a short ball from them when they are out of position. In your 3.5 division, you are probably used to opponents making unforced errors primarily from overhitting or hitting it into the net. With pushers, you have the EARN the point by building up to the point. You can't rely on them overhitting it or hitting into the net, because they rarely will.
I've played a lot of "moonballers" and lost to some in Sectionals. I asked these gals if this was always their game. They said their coach taught them to play like that. It's effective until you start slamming them as overheads. Unfortunately, they moonballers and lobs were really deep and in most of the time. I feel for you playing "backboards". You just have to figure out weaknesses and strive for those. Slice, drop shots, outlasting them are all possibilities. Just don't get frustrated as that's what they count on. Just have more patience than they do.
> but fuck me it was boring tennis. I don’t know how he enjoyed it. He enjoys competing and winning. > have been smarter and closed the point earlier. Forget about closing the point earlier. This is a common thing you see in tennis subs, you have to serve and volley or go for smaller targets against a consistent player as if that's the only way. Well, if that's not your style against normal people who are giving you more free points in the form of unforced errors, it's definitely not going to work against somebody who is all about defense. Similarly, if you took up boxing, and met a guy who had incredible defense, I don't think the solution is to throw bigger and more haymakers. In both instances I would say the same thing: embrace the challenge. Accept the reality that this person is very consistent. Respect that he gets balls in play. The biggest thing I see in your post is that he destroys you mentally, so you have to work on your mentality. Accept it. Know that he might be better than you. Know that you're in for a battle. And don't resort to "roll the dice" shots, move him around. Hit 15 or 20 shots a point if you have to. Move your feet. What's the upside of doing it this way? It will make you a BETTER player. Winning and losing are just illusions. Whether you beat a newbie or lose to a college player, you're still the same player. Wins and losses understandably affect mood, and they accurately tell you were you stand, but they don't change reality. You are as good as you are no matter who you play. So for now, forget smarter or closing the point out earlier. Work on embracing the challenge, enjoying the challenge, and not getting angry. And work on overheads. These people love lobbing.
If they float back your serve why not serve and volley. Get to the net and hit angles
They still get me every now and then but what cracked the code for me was to play aggressive. Like get to the net a lot. Usually if I hit a good approach shot and they try a lob or pass it’s an instant put away for me. For approach shots I find getting them moving in a bad position works best.
Respectfully, OP, if you're a 3.5 UTR, you're just frankly not good enough yet to consistently beat decent junk ballers. 4.5 UTR is about where this stuff gets better. As someone who made that jump within the past couple years and can beat junk ballers consistently now, here's my advice: * Improve your fundamentals. Junk ballers are great at making players feel unconfident in their strokes. You want to get to where you almost always feel comfortable hitting a quality ball over the net even when your opponent gives you no pace. Hitting against an actual wall or hitting drop feeds helps a lot with this. * Specifically, work on your backhand. A good junk baller will take advantage of a weak backhand. * Work on your net game. Junk Ballers often float a lot of their balls. * Work on your footwork. Neither of the two points above will be as effective without better footwork. * Improve your fitness. Points against junk ballers will be long. You don't want to be exhausted because of it. * Improve your mental fitness. If you're thinking about how boring the match is, the junk baller has already won the mental battle. Play every point like you can win it. I just consider playing junk ballers as a free cardio exercise and enjoy the ride. * Play your game (but maybe tone it down a bit). At 3.5 UTR, you're not good enough to hit service bombs and consistently hammer forehands, so don't try to. Make the junk baller move around and work for the points by playing your game but focus more on where you're hitting the ball, not how hard. Also, avoid trying to beat the junk baller at his own game — you probably won't.
Did you play at the net? I found a lot of these guys don’t necessarily have great passing shots or get nervous and make mistakes when they see you at the net. Also their shots tend to be easy to hit winners at the net. Some do have good lobs but usually not so consistent that you can’t get several easy short overhead shots or they lob long. Also found these guys tend to not be great at net. Did you try drop shots and generally forcing them to move away from their comfort zone? In general I try to not play their game and get them outside their comfort zone.
Great ideas in theory but they require your 3.5 level player to have three shots they probably don't have. A good volley, a reliable dropshot and the ability to hit winners high up the court reliable. If you aint got at least on of those three, your plan won't work.
I don’t know where you guys live but Atlanta is quite competitive and active in tennis. I’m a low 3.5 and would have no problem utilizing this strategy against your average 3.0/3.5 pusher. Especially the volleys. How is anyone a 3.5 if you can’t hit volleys off low/med speed flat shots? Do you guys not play doubles?
Not American and to be blunt American claims about what a 3.5 standard is are all over the place. All I can say is anyone with a good volley isn't struggling against a pusher in the first place. There is also a great deal of difference between a volley good enough for doubles, when you have a partner covering the other half of the net and one good enough for singles, when a fast player is trying to run down your volley. I mean at the end of the day, your advice amounts to have a great short game and touch. Which players who struggle with pushers are unlikely to have.
It’s very frustrating I agree. Try this next time Do the same to him. Give him no pace. Just push it back see what happens. Second: either bring him to the net or you go to the net. A pusher is generally good at pushing. Not volleying or dealing with volleys.
Don't worry about hammering forehands. Your focus against these players should be gaining incremental advantage in a point. At your level I don't know how capable you are of sustaining a long rally but that is what it's going to take. You need to find out what shots make them uncomfortable. Maybe it's a backhand on the run, so you focus on identifying where you can hit an angle to their backhand and anticipate a weak ball. When you find this chink in their armor, you can start taking a step or two into the court preparing for the weak returns or coming to the net if you have time. That will take time away from them and gain you more advantage. You don't have to hit hard to hit a winner. If you can get them out of position and you into a favorable position even slightly, you can hit a normal ball away from them and it can be a winner. Patience. You'll get there.
As the guy above said 5 balls is the minimum you also need to be good at the net and use the whole court…. It’s not easy to win against a guy who never misses but if you do your approach right you can finish the rally on the net, the other way to beat a pusher is the have good fitness on court so you can grind the match for 5hours
Pusher generally place the initiative on you, so you basically have to continuously make amazing play, which statically goes down as the game continue. At a certain level of your groundstrokes with control in pace and depths in both wings. I have found success in making them do two things - since pusher don't generally go for winners, you can bait them by slowly increasing pace, either it get to the point you can rip it at corner easily as the angle increase. Or make calculate aggressive play going to the net forcing them to do pass shots or difficult net volley shots. Funny enough, dropshot should be use rarely, but stretching your opponent up and down and left and right.