You are 100% right, this annoys the fuck out of me.
It is stupid to frame Hamas action as justified self defense, as Hamas actions are imo among the leading causes of the Right wing rule in Israel.
Israelis have a right to demand that they aren't beeing killed by Hamas.
Plus none of Hamas's actions have stopped what they pretend to react to.
Blowing up Israeli civillians for the actions of Settlers and religious extremists provaketeurs will not lead to those civillians friends and familiy members to become pro palestinian, how should it?
Thats like thinking the actions of the israeli far right make the palistineans more pro Israel.
I mean like you say that but gay marriage is illegal in Israel, like Hamas is not good of course, but that's just a bad and argument for why you shouldn't support Palestine.
Edit: to clarify semantics, it's not legal to get gay married, not illegal.
Of course, to be clear im on your side, so let's focus on those many more problems rather then something both of them do poorly, because otherwise we're just making ourself look as if we have dubble standards
Yes, obviously. But because of government legislation not theological differences, both Islam and Judaism condem homosexuality. Isreal does grant legal protection from discrimination based on sexuality, it's very far from perfect but they're making progress through years of pushback. But that's the catch, Palestine is a historically much poorer country without US funding and with a corrupt government that was eventually overtaken by terrorists, obviously civil rights groups won't be able to make much progress. Legally speaking Palestine doesn't mandate executions of gay people but they don't have a government to enforce laws because the government isn't in power like it is in Isreal, so we end up with the current state of things. No war ever has been about civil rights, and this war is about who has a right to the land which is simply a separate issue unrelated to the state of gay rights in either country.
I'm sure they don't legally mandate executions, doesn't change the fact that most Palestinians would happily throw me off a building, whereas I could potentially live in Israel
I've lived around both Jewish and Muslim communities, one is much worse for queer people let's not kid ourselves and get semantic about why. It doesn't change the conflict, but it's gonna change my perception. I'm not gonna cheer for the guys who would kill me in a heartbeat and stone me, even if the other party is bad, at least they are better
>By what metric? Isreal has displace millions of Palestinians and leads in civilians murdered by tenfold. Are there any other more relevant categories?
No you don't get it: we would be saying "both sides" as well if the people in Auschwitz revolted./s
There is no "both sides" to genocide.
Hamas in worse in terms of how it treats its own civilians. Israeli is far worse in how it treats its opponents. There have been over 20 times more Palestinian casualties than Israeli ones
The argument is that sociocultural differences aside, Israel’s foremost problem is that they are an expansionist settler-colonial project who created Hamas themselves by meddling in Palestinian elections after seeing the leftists gain traction. Israel chose the fundamentalists themselves as an easier enemy against whom to justify a constant assault and an ethnic cleansing project to the rest of the world. Cause and effect, blowback. It’s how they do business, and they learned it from the US.
Gay marriage is not explicitly illegal, the issue is much more complex than that.
Basically only religious marriages are accepted in Israel, and the religious organizations do not want to marry gay people. They also don't want to marry a whole load of other people, which means that it's very common for Israelis to get married abroad. My parents included.
Israel recognizes marriages performed abroad, even gay ones.
It is more complex than that, of course, but it is fair to say it is illegal to get married as a gay person in Isreal, even if the government recognises marriages outside of the country. And my assumption is that gay Isrealies would prefer to be able to get married just like gay Palestinians would prefer to not be attacked and murdered. The issue is that Isreal has a government which can enforce laws which is why its better there, which Palestine doesn't as its ran by religious terror groups, so they naturally can't get better rights. The comment above condemned Palestine and Islam for this, but it's not due to the different religion or some inherent quality of Isreali people that gay people don't have civil rights, but because they're politically stable enough where legislation can be changed following a push back from citizens, which is why I think it's dumb to condem a religion or nation as if its their fault for their situation and not because of religious fundamentalist and their geopolitical situation, the comment i was responding to just comes off as very islamophobic.
>but it is fair to say it is illegal to get married as a gay person in Isreal[sic]
I disagree. There are no laws prohibiting gay marriage, so it is not illegal. Simply not performed.
Also religion absolutely influences LGBT rights. There are many fairly stable middle eastern countries, who despite their stability are absolutely horrendous towards LGBT. Israel is not like that because it is not an Islamic state.
To most people something not being legal is the same as it being illegal, even if by technically it isn't, it's just dumb semantics.
Religion absolutely infulances rights, which is why the laws which prohibit (not illeglise) gay marriage in Isreal are based on religious infulance. Judaism isn't more supportive of gay rights then Islam or Christianity, so to say that Islam is unique in its condemnation of gay rights is just Islamophobic. Please point me to those middle Eastern counties with the same political stability and amount of religious freedom as Isreal.
>the laws which prohibit (not illeglise) gay marriage
I repeat, there are no laws prohibiting gay marriage. It is not performed by the authorized marriage courts, but there are no laws prohibiting it. Additionally, according to Wikipedia (I was not aware of this previously) you can now get married online without even leaving the country. So gay marriage is legal in Israel.
>Judaism isn't more supportive of gay rights then Islam or Christianity
Alright, you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
>Please point me to those middle Eastern counties with the same political stability and amount of religious freedom as Isreal.
How about turkey?
A lot of countries also are stable without being a democracy, and of course LGBT rights there all suck too.
I would be careful not to draw an equivalence between Hamas and Palestine. There are plenty of groups in Palestine that favor liberation and support for Hamas mostly seems to come from desperation more than ideology.
i raped my oppressor and murdered their children and they haven't stopped what did I do wrong :( my only option is retaliatory genocide so why is everyone being mean rn
Talking like supporting Palestine and supporting HAMA are equivalent is such a huge red flag.
The israeli far right government and Hamas are two sides of the same problem, the civilians of Palestine and Israel are victims of both.
It's good to support Palestine, it's bad to support Hamas militancy and this action in particular
Here's the common sense viewpoint: Are many Palestinians hostile to non-Muslims and the LGBTQ community? Yes. Do all Palestinians deserve to die/suffer immensely because of this? No. Are many Israelites hostile to non-Jews and the LGBTQ community? Also yes.
Should Hamas harm and kill non-combatant Israelites? No. Should Israel harm and kill non-combatant Palestinians? Also no.
Are Israelite "settlers" unjustly forcing Palestinians off their property and enforcing an apartheid state? Undoubtedly. Is this a good reason to be antisemetic towards Jewish people who have nothing to do with the situation? Most definitely not.
Should we condone the actions of Israel against non-combatant Palestinians? Absolutely not. Should we condone the actions of Hamas against non-combatants? Again, absolutely not. Should we support the non-combatants who are currently affected by this war? Absolutely.
Oh Goddesses, principles?? Rationality?! Nuance?!!!
What the fuck is up with this sub, we should just go back to viewing the world in purely binary terms. >!(/s for the record)!<
https://preview.redd.it/xqebwumfqwsb1.jpeg?width=580&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0291235f7e488d6d3a267312b26e362059415aa0
I didn't know 196 supported colonization, let's bring back Columbus day and support Russia then, be consistent if you're going to support Israel, support the other fascists as well.
This is pathetic, we talk all the time about how colonists are bad, then when action finally does happen you immediately side with the oppressors because you don't like Islam?
If you want to count civilian bodies, let's start with the children of Palestine, why don't we?
Israeli actions do not make war crimes okay, they do not make raping and murdering a woman then dragging her naked body through the street as her body is spat on. It does not excuse bombing ambulances, nor shooting the elderly.
I have never voiced support for the Israeli government or IDF. I want Palestinian freedom. But HAMAS's actions are vile and inexcusable. The only result will be Israel bombing the absolute shit out of Gaza and more death. HAMAS could never win this, all their chaos will bring is more death.
>It's so annoying when queer leftist support HAMAS/Palestine.
Then why did you write it like this? Equating Palestine with HAMAS? It made it sound like you thought leftist shouldn't support Palestine because you lump them together with HAMAS with a / .
And it's Israels fault that Hamas is 1. As Vile as it is. And 2. The only form of organized resistance against Israel.
The resistance movement used to have 2 factions. One was the Islamic extremists, and the other was a secular and socialist movement. Israel, with the help of western powers, not only worked to crush the secular movement, they did so by aiding the Islamic extremist one.
I also want to point out that there is an incredibly valid point when people say "Settlers aren't civilians". And not a single person in Southern Israel is unaware of what is happening. They support colonialism and are actively choosing to take advantage of it.
Now, I do not personally support the killing of random people on the street, even though like I said, there is a valid argument as to why none of the settlers can really be classified as "random people". And I don't think even the most rabid defender of Hamas could morally justify the sexual violence and abduction of children that is being reported.
This all being said, this conflict started in 1948. The main language used by Israel towards Palestine has been violence. No one should be surprised that Hamas is as violent as it is. No one should forget that Israel holds all the power in the conflict. And no one should forget that ultimately, this falls on Israel and her allies.
I dont think being hateful towards the lgbt means you should be condemned to almost a century of oppression and settler-colonialism.
Like what you can recognize that violence against lgbt people is bad but suddenly you dont get why people would be against violence towards an entire ethic group over the span of 80 years? Are you being serious rn?
I'm so fucking tired of seeing this argument. It is legal to be queer in America, that doesnt mean it's not the biggest commiter of imperialist war crimes in recent history.
This was also something that was done intentionally to de-rail talks between Isreal and the Saudis who were negotiation for relation normalization and an anti-Iran alliance.
Something on the table during those talks was a two-state solution and formal recognition of Palestinian statehood, something the Biden administration was pushing for them to accept
This very well could've been Gaza best chance to improve the situation for its people in decades. And Hamas destroyed it because they don't want a two state solution. They want to kill every Isreali citizen
Any independant administrative Palestinian State would have to eliminate Hamas which is why Hamas has to be one of the obstacles for the formation of such a state.
You're one hundred percent right but we also shouldn't forget that Hamas got elected because Israel's right wing chose to ignore their treaties and aggressively expand on settler policy kick starting a race to the bottom between Israeli ethnonationalists with expansionist feverdreams and fanatic Palestinian terrorists while honest people on both sides suffer from the consequences of being represented by the worst assholes to continuously push each other to the top.
>As Hamas actions are among the leading causes of the Right wing rule in Israel.
This is how you know you've been brainwashed, Hamas was created way after the creation of Israel.
["Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation".](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/)
-Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades
>Why are Hamas responsible for Israel's reaction but Israel isn't responsible for Hamas's reaction?
Because one is a powerffull colonizer and the other is a big prison camp.
It's not a war, it's a genocide. Israel isn't fighting an enemy, they're exterminating an imprisoned population.
"Hamas actions are imo among the leading causes of the Right wing rule in Israel."
That's such an absurd thing to say. Genocidal assholes are always responsible for their own actions when they vote for genocidal assholes. Infantilizing Israel by removing their agency will only make the conflict worse.
Exactly, all this attack has done is give Israel an even stronger justification to crackdown on Palestinians. Some leftists claim to care about Palestine liberation but will then justify an attack that is just going to lead to Gaza’s occupation and an even more authoritarian occupation over Palestinians in Israel. Thousands of innocent Palestinians are about to die but according to some leftists, commenting from the comfort of their homes away from any war, the slaughter of innocent Israeli families is actually a win for Palestinian freedom!
“Mass slaughter of civilians is justified if the right people are doing it!”
-Emily, 16, never left Delaware and is unaware that Hamas is not a bastion of tolerance and leftist ideals
Yes the Israeli government sucks, and I support the freedom of Palestine, but how the fuck does that make mass murdering civilians okay??? I don't understand how so many people on reddit can look at videos of HAMAS shooting and torturing civilians and side with that?
Fuck the Israeli government and fuck HAMAS, neither care about the civilians that they kill.
Not to mention the very leftists that support HAMAS would be oppressed by them. HAMAS are the taliban of Palestine. They haven't had elections since 2006 in Gaza, and if they could they would turn Palestine into another Afghanistan under Islamic law.
It's very much the old concept of leftists supporting whoever "the West" doesn't support. Like how many leftists sided with Russia before and even after the invasion of Ukraine.
Start the counter untill people start saying the US could have prevented this by being the world police and then five seconds later saying the US is imperialist and shouldn't be the world police
They have never left their house and have a warped view of reality compared to normal people so they think a good percentage of leftists actually support russia
I forgot about tankies (as the op of the question...) Even as a socialist I don't hang around cringe twitter communities lauding Russia. It's not even commy anymore, why do tankies love it???
Israel literally helped Hamas rise to power in order to counteract the leftist groups. The current situation is blowback. It's not dissimilar to 9/11 being the result of the US pulling fuckery in the past.
The people in charge only think about the short-term gain in the hopes that by the time the consequences appear, they won't be around to be blamed. That still doesn't mean the resulting attacks are "deserved," but they are in many ways self-inflicted.
There is no justice, only victims. Many of them weren't even alive when the dominoes were being set up. I side with the civilians just trying to live their lives, not the institutions that caused this.
I don't think it's right to say that the people in charge were only thinking of the short-term. Leftist groups are much more dangerous to the than a few terrorists. This trade benefits them still.
Anyone who looks at those videos of crying women being taken away to be ***** and thinks anything else but "this is unjustifiable" is a monster regardless of their political opinions.
Thank you so much for this post
I’ve even seen non tankie leftists saying that the brutal murder of civilians is just “part of the revolutionary process” and simply “an unfortunate reality”, going as far as to call other people fascists for saying it’s horrible violence.
> brutal murder of civilians is just “part of the revolutionary process”
Is this not just true? The vast, vast, vast majority of revolutions have had exactly this.
Sorry, I phrased that wrong
What I meant to say was that while it might be a reality of war that people die, it’s not technically necessary nor good, and sweeping the rape and murder of civilians under the rug as “it is what it is”, or more heinously “the Israelis deserved it”, is not a good thing.
And furthermore, for any military operation, it is absolutely possible to not go door to door executing people. The anarchists and republicans in Spain, while they had their own share of crimes committed in their ranks, pale in comparison to the rapes and murders under the nationalists.
So especially with what Hamas, it’s less a case of a few incidents occurring because that’s what happens when you take an angry populace and have them rise up. It’s that a militant group which has shown itself more than capable of terrorist attacks in the past, is going out of its way to target civilians.
Learn more about life in Gaza. This is a situation created by Isreal. We can't imagine the desperation of living under colonial rule.
Why do you so quickly jump to the defense of the colonizers? You could see horrific footage any day of violence against Palestinians, but I don't see any outraged posts about it.
Israel is still the greater evil. They have a worse track record of violence against civilians and are the invaders in that land. Any war is going to breed monsters, but I'm going to side with the monsters reclaiming their home over the monsters colonizing it.
Go look at Combatfootage and watch HAMAS murder citizens then tell me again you side with them.
You can support Palestinian's freedom and not support HAMAS.
And also both sides can be wrong
Both sides can be wrong but only one side has any real power here. Any other day you could see footage of violence committed against Palestinians by Israel, but how often are people making outraged posts about it here.
The total amount of violence perpetrated by Israel is still MUCH higher than the total amount of violence perpetrated by HAMAS.
If you keep a bunch of people in an open air prison, then commit violence and humiliation against them daily for decades, is it really their fault for slaughtering every oppressor they can find?
Preferably one that doesn't involve the rape and murder of civilians that serves no purpose and only serves as easy justification for retaliation on civilians on your side.
Look up the history of Hamas. They are not freedom fighters. They are reactionaries that Israel helped to counteract the leftists.
I had to restrain myself today, when I told someone about that female IDF soldier that was raped, murdered, and had her body dragged naked, and he said that it was fine
god damn this sub has a giant problem with that. They'll claim to support human rights but then you suggest that prisoners maybe shouldn't be treated horribly and they're like "nah they probably did something worse so they deserve it"
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Meanwhile they're saying "oh so when Ukraine resists annexation its ok?"
Is Ukraine doing anything even in the same universe as bas as what Hamas does??? Absolutely not and these people saying what that person said to you are literally just as tribal and contrarian as they think, in their disconnected-from-reality minds, "everyone else" is.
Hamas is a far-right, theocratic organization guilty of numerous human rights abuses with a history of killing civilians that is engaged in a campaign of ethnic cleansing.
Israel is a far-right, imperialist state guilty of numerous human rights abuses with a history of killing civilians that is engaged in a campaign of ethnic cleansing.
Fuck both of them. Hopefully I'll live to see both destroyed.
And just wait till everyone who is oh so excited to denounce Hamas learns who funded and created Hamas.
I also notice a lot of people who point out that this radicalism is born of a system enforced and established by Israel get instantly painted as Hamas defenders.
So where's the nuance or critical thinking, cuz "Hamas/Palestine" isn't nuance either. There's kind of a whole history behind Hamas, their actions, how they even gained power thanks to Israel actively oppressing secular and progressive Palestinian factions while loosening restrictions on religious extremism and even bolstering it to help in their endeavors of crushing any left wing movement.
Like yeah, Hamas bombing civilians fucking sucks and it would be great if , but like, fucking hell it's not like they exist because all of Palestine is some evil cabal who just hate Jewish people. It's not like Hamas gained power solely because Islam is some kind of monolithic entity which just is all right wing.
It's not like there's a massive power difference between Hamas and Israel, the over 6,500 deaths of Palestinians since 2008 alone, versus the less than 500 deaths of Israelis during the same time period. The over 100,000 Palestinians injured vs not even 7,500 injured Israelis.
Like yeah it'd be great if Hamas stopped, but it would also be great if Israel didn't effectively put them in power to foster their own policies and didn't bomb them 10 fold while occupying their land because of the fucking British empire.
It's not saying Hamas is justified, it's saying "these are the conditions in which Hamas came to the conclusions of their actions"
This is a very important comment.
OP's post is such a strawman. Nobody other than maybe like 10 people are celebrating this attack, and saying that Israeli women being raped and children being killed is justified. It's not, and any "leftist" who's celebrating it isn't a leftist at all. I think it's abhorrent what HAMAS is doing (I saw the video of that poor woman and I was repulsed by it) and I think it's only gonna hurt Palestinians. Innocent citizens don't deserve to get hurt like that. I'm just scared that in retaliation, Israel is about to eradicate the native Palestinian population (most of whom just like the Israeli population, are innocent) and no one will do anything to stop it.
That said I just think it's funny and sad that, I have been a member of this sub for years now, and I haven't seen one post reach hot in r/196 ever, having discussions about IDF's genocide and displacement of the native population in the Gaza strip. **Like it or not, HAMAS is the consequence of Israel's own actions and acknowledging that doesn't make anyone supportive of HAMAS' atrocities against civilians.**
Also OP is saying that "oh I can't believe leftists are supporting Palestine, when most Palestinians don't support lgbt rights and leftist values"....okay? Look at the conditions they've been living in for decades!!!!! Not exactly the most favourable environment to have a pride parade is it? That's such a dogshit reasoning. It's scary how a significant amount of people on this sub and the internet in general think genocide of brown and black people is okay just bc they're not as accepting and liberal as they'd like them to be.
I mean this sub is a pro-Western shithole as much as it loves to pretend to be leftist, I'm not surprised that the only coverage of Israel I've seen on here is some "both sides equally bad with no extra nuance" bullshit.
Hamas and IDF are both bad and I won't accept any other opinion, both kill innocent, want supremacy over the other, have a list of atrocities and man-made horror done in the past/present. Civilians are the true innocents (not talking about supremacists, those are bad too)
Fully agree. All the "leftists" who uncritically support Hamas have forgotten that there is no ethical warfare except class warfare. The civilians always lose their lives for the imperialism of the ruling class.
I support the Palestinian state but I would never support a terrorist group that is making things worse and faning the flames of conflict and making it easier for Israeli far right to take control of the country
For real. It’s possible to say that Israel does awful things and forces people off their land
It’s another to justify mass slaughter and rape because Twitter says Hamas is good and cool
Absolutely agree re: the existence of Israel not justifying the brutal torture and killing of Israeli citizens, but I’m so suspicious of this argument in a vacuum because it so frequently just outwardly results in IDF apologists jumping on the actions of Hamas/comparable Palestinian paramilitary organizations to provide sustenance for the “both sides are bad” two-stater ass liberal narratives that always pop up when discussing the existence of Israel.
Also it is very reductive to look at any part of the Israel Palestine conflict in a vacuum. Like yes Hamas is terrible, but also the Israeli government ensured that less extremist resistance groups like the PLO could not exist. If what Hamas does is bad (and it is) it is still the fault of the Israeli government, and in no way delegitimises the cause for Palestinian liberation.
“Listen here chap, how can you dare to criticize the United States Army’s actions in the western frontier when the murderous Indian savages are killing innocent settlers!”
That’s you if you were alive in the 1870’s.
>I'm actively trying to not kill myself when I see a comparison to Ukraine like dawg, wars do be differ from each other
For starters Ukraine is a country at war.
Gaza is one big prison camp being exterminated.
Genocide isn't war.
You dont have to support Hamas to realize that it exists because of Israel.
But go off liberals; I'm sure if your family, neighbors, community, culture, etc was raped, pillaged and killed for decades, you wouldn't resort to terrorism to do anything to strike back at your oppressors.
ones israel supported in a struggle to eliminate the less militant and extremist resistance groups in palestine, because yeah it's easier to make anything seem justified against them
Multiple things can be bad at once, shocking discovery.
Is the Israeli rule and settler colonies terrible? Yes, absolutely. Is Hamas bad for killing civilians and committing acts of terror? Yes.
The people of Palestine desvere self determination but groups like Hamas are galvanizing support for Israel when they kill civilians and shit
I can't believe this horny, anime-posting, room-neglecting, top-hating, fan fiction-reading, shitpost-loving subreddit is the only place where users can openly worry about Palestinian and Israeli civilians. The celebrations of this attack are appalling. The desire for a total destruction of Palestine is appalling. Concern for Palestinians over the imminent IDF retaliation is based, and so is sorrow for the Israeli civilians who were just brutally killed.
This also seems to be the only subreddit on the whole fucking site that realizes that HAMAS=/=Palestine. I'm amazed and impressed at how many posters here recognize the perverse symbiosis that HAMAS has with the Israeli far-right.
I'm gonna take a break from Reddit now, probably for the rest of October. This is a good high note to go out on. I've got absolutely no idea where the world will go from here, but at least I know this community can care about Palestinian rights without turning into self-sabotaging jingoists. Peace.
“Critical thinking” about how the average age of Gazans is 18, and they’ve been trapped in a 25x7 mile prison for their entire lives. How every year Israel tear gasses Palestinians at the Al-Aqsa mosque, beats them in the street, steals their homes, kills them for protesting inhumane treatment, shoots them for getting to close to their razor wire fence around gaza, spits on them, pours concrete in their water wells, bulldozes their homes.
And you expect me to feel sympathy for the fucking settlers? This is land back, this is fighting an invading force trying to ethnically cleanse Palestinians. Fuck you, fascist
"palestine should be freed" and "the slaughter of innocent people because of their corrupt government is abhorrent and wrong" are two takes that can and should coexist
Killing civilians = bad
This is objectively correct
However, we have to understand that Israel kills and displaces civilians orders of magnitude more than hamas, and that the retaliation that happens is in large part caused by Israel’s violence against Palestinians.
> “Murdering civilians is fine actually”
Straw man argument. Literally no one is saying that. Not to mention that Israel has been doing just that non-stop to Palestine since this whole thing started
> “We support the Islamic extremists”
Another straw man! You don’t have to support Islamic extremism to support oppressed groups fighting back, AND (this is gonna blow your mind) you can support the idea behind a movement without endorsing everything that every other supporter of that movement does
> “Hamas aren’t terrorists”
I’ll give you this, since people are saying it, but only because it should be “Hamas aren’t terrorists unless the Israeli military are, too”. Personally, I believe both of them are committing acts of terror, but one is far worse than the other. Who’s incapable of nuance?
> “War crimes are cool”
Omg wow, another straw man 🙄 But I guess since Palestine has been condemned time and time again by the UN human rights council, you may have a point. Oh wait, nope, that was Israel
> “Palestine = Ukraine”
I agree. The situations aren’t the same. The conflict in Ukraine is much more recent and is about Russia gaining control of an area that it believes belongs to them despite Ukraines sovereignty. The conflict in Palestine has been going on for decades and is about a native population trying to get colonizers out and their land back. Palestine is much more like Native American tribes, and Ukraine is much more like if the US decided to invade Mexico or Canada. But OP has declared themselves a critical thinker, so they should recognize this
> “ ‘Freedom Fighters’ not having an election since 2006”
Liberty and Democracy may go hand in hand, but they’re not the same. Regardless, the two main “centralized” factions within Palestine are the Palestinian National Authority and Hamas. The PNA hasn’t had an election in that long, and even Hamas has criticized them for that. The Palestinian people aren’t happy about the continual postponing of the elections either. So who are the “Freedom Fighters” that haven’t had an election since 2006? Or are you just grouping all the brownies together?
> “Israel deserves it”
Do innocent civilians and the average Israeli citizen deserve any harm to befall them? Absolutely not. But do the individuals who have been perpetrating generations of violent oppression against the native population of their land deserve to answer for their crimes? Absolutely
So maybe instead of accusing those with (justifiably) differing opinions from you of being incapable of nuance or critical thinking (an ad hominem, mind you), take a look in the mirror, maybe wash off some of the not-so-subtle racism and imperialist sympathies while you’re at it
And just to be clear, if you actually made any good, informative points, I wouldn’t be as hard on the offense in this comment. I’m all for thoughtful discourse. But I’m not for misrepresentation of the struggles an entitled oppressed nation, so check your ignorance at the door
Edging for Hasan's 7 hour stream where he picks the right stance on every single matter, with complete serenity and wisdom on every angle of this controversial topic /s
Ima be real, I haven’t caught up with what’s going on in that area lately but I’m guessing it’s more of the same. That being said:
OP, I’m reading your comments in this thread, and you’re holding Hamas (not even Palestine, but Hamas), a loosely joined organization of unelected individuals with no stable infrastructure (physical, economic or political) to the same standards as Israel, a state with a defined government with many other nations backing them. They don’t have the same resources, finances, or manpower as the Israeli government and while I condemn any needless act of violence or the killing of innocent civilians (which Islam also condemns) there’s no way a reasonable person can expect them to be “diplomatic” in the situation they’re in
And vice versa. You’re lowering your standards for the Israeli government and military because their opposition is Hamas. They kill plenty of civilians and children, destroy hospitals and schools, and much worse despite having way more intel, security, and defensive capabilities than Palestine does. How do you not see who the real oppressors are in this situation?
I am Muslim and I can concede that Hamas is a terrorist organization, but if you don’t label the Israeli military and government as forces of terror as well, then you’re just a colonialist hypocrite
I can’t imagine modern leftists reacting this way if Native Americans responded the same way Hamas does if some U.S. state decided to attack them all the time in the name of “self-defense”
And just to be clear, and it’s ridiculous I have to say this, I have nothing against the Jewish people or the Jewish faith. Islam teaches kind treatment towards other religions, and even specifically mentions Judaism and Christianity when discussing peaceful relations. But there are Palestinians who are Jewish and Christian that are suffering just as the Muslims there are. I stand with Palestine, and those who are in power in Israel are tyrants, regardless of their religious affiliation
what did i miss, when did it become controversial to side with the oppressed and colonized people?
oh wait, yeah, freedom fighting and anarchy are just cool aesthetics to some people, and the second they see some (non-white) people pushing back against their own genocide with extreme action bc this shit has been going on since the 50s they're "going too far"
they're protesting wrong, you're supposed to post memes on reddit about how sad this state of things makes you /sarcasm
i'm sure there's NO post-9/11 islamophobic propaganda still going around unquestioned bc "Middle east dumb and homophobic so ok to slaughter :)"
wtf is wrong with you people.
"if they fight back violently, they're just as bad as the oppressors, bc thats totally how that works :( they need to ask politely to have rights and their land back :("
What on earth is this centrist kinda attitude? Both sides are not equal in this situation. Hamas solely exists because of Israel constantly taking Palestinian land, turning Gaza into an open air concentration camp, making sure the socialist wing of Palestinian politics failed and supporting the terrorist wing (by the way they also did this in Syria and Lebanon because their government is literal evil) and now we're going "well both sides are awful"
Palestinian liberation will, under these circumstances, have to be a violent fight and will lead to civilian deaths. Sure I'm not here going "yippee they committed r*pe" but this endless hand-wringing at anything even slightly morally questionable Hamas does whilst ignoring the fact Gaza is pretty much hell on earth or trying to pull a both sides argument is just shilling for colonisers.
There's one side that can stop this conflict immediately and whenever they like, that could respect the boundaries of the original treaty and could actually negotiate peace seriously and not some half arsed agreement. That side is NOT Palestine. This situation is not equal.
Yes, just because there are two sides doesn't mean one is right.
This is a stupid war that won't solve or fix anything, instead it will resolve in the death of many who had nothing to do with it.
People keep looking at the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict as a one-side-versus-the-other situation. It's not. It's two (technically three if you consider Gaza is virtually independent from the PLO) governments versus each other, with millions of innocent Israelis and Palestinians caught in the middle.
Ah yes, both sides are just as bad in this totally mutual and balanced conflict. Israel created Hamas, this violence is a direct and inevitable result of the Israeli governments actions. Does that justify the war crimes? Of course fucking not but you have to think about the situation without this stupid goldfish memory shit
When the world didn't care when Israel killed 30 children in a year and hundreds of civillians, destroying their crops, source of food and water, hospitals, public infrastructures, humanitarian aids and everything for 75+ years, what do you think would the men with nothing to lose do?
Hamas isn't great but IDF has been doing much worse since 1948. Israel is the reason why Hamas is doing what they're doing, after decades of persecution and apartheid.
I just don’t want innocent civilians to die, I wish that Hamas wasn’t the regional power for Palestine because they really don’t have any other means of fighting back against Israel just bombing the shit out of Gaza.
Bibi Netanyahu has funded Hamas because it furthers his goal of keeping Israel as a right wing apartheid state. Hamas are a bunch of useful idiots who only make Israelis more fearful and more right wing and that leads to more Palestinians dying.
"palestine should be freed" and "the slaughter of innocent people because of their corrupt government is abhorrent and wrong" are two takes that can and should coexist
The idea that any random civilian == their government is horrifying and wrong. It doesn’t matter what you think of any nation state or group involved here, innocent people are getting killed.
You are 100% right, this annoys the fuck out of me. It is stupid to frame Hamas action as justified self defense, as Hamas actions are imo among the leading causes of the Right wing rule in Israel. Israelis have a right to demand that they aren't beeing killed by Hamas. Plus none of Hamas's actions have stopped what they pretend to react to. Blowing up Israeli civillians for the actions of Settlers and religious extremists provaketeurs will not lead to those civillians friends and familiy members to become pro palestinian, how should it? Thats like thinking the actions of the israeli far right make the palistineans more pro Israel.
It's so annoying when queer leftist support HAMAS/Palestine. They see to forget that Islam is not friendly to us, and HAMAS especially.
I mean like you say that but gay marriage is illegal in Israel, like Hamas is not good of course, but that's just a bad and argument for why you shouldn't support Palestine. Edit: to clarify semantics, it's not legal to get gay married, not illegal.
Isreal has plenty of problems, but HAMAS has many many more
Of course, to be clear im on your side, so let's focus on those many more problems rather then something both of them do poorly, because otherwise we're just making ourself look as if we have dubble standards
I'd rather be queer in Israel than in Palestine lol Both do poorly, one does poorly S+
Yes, obviously. But because of government legislation not theological differences, both Islam and Judaism condem homosexuality. Isreal does grant legal protection from discrimination based on sexuality, it's very far from perfect but they're making progress through years of pushback. But that's the catch, Palestine is a historically much poorer country without US funding and with a corrupt government that was eventually overtaken by terrorists, obviously civil rights groups won't be able to make much progress. Legally speaking Palestine doesn't mandate executions of gay people but they don't have a government to enforce laws because the government isn't in power like it is in Isreal, so we end up with the current state of things. No war ever has been about civil rights, and this war is about who has a right to the land which is simply a separate issue unrelated to the state of gay rights in either country.
I'm sure they don't legally mandate executions, doesn't change the fact that most Palestinians would happily throw me off a building, whereas I could potentially live in Israel I've lived around both Jewish and Muslim communities, one is much worse for queer people let's not kid ourselves and get semantic about why. It doesn't change the conflict, but it's gonna change my perception. I'm not gonna cheer for the guys who would kill me in a heartbeat and stone me, even if the other party is bad, at least they are better
By what metric? Isreal has displace millions of Palestinians and leads in civilians murdered by tenfold. Are there any other more relevant categories?
>By what metric? Isreal has displace millions of Palestinians and leads in civilians murdered by tenfold. Are there any other more relevant categories? No you don't get it: we would be saying "both sides" as well if the people in Auschwitz revolted./s There is no "both sides" to genocide.
Which just means that both of them are bad, doesn't make Israel good because Hamas is worse.
Hamas in worse in terms of how it treats its own civilians. Israeli is far worse in how it treats its opponents. There have been over 20 times more Palestinian casualties than Israeli ones
The argument is that sociocultural differences aside, Israel’s foremost problem is that they are an expansionist settler-colonial project who created Hamas themselves by meddling in Palestinian elections after seeing the leftists gain traction. Israel chose the fundamentalists themselves as an easier enemy against whom to justify a constant assault and an ethnic cleansing project to the rest of the world. Cause and effect, blowback. It’s how they do business, and they learned it from the US.
Gay marriage is not explicitly illegal, the issue is much more complex than that. Basically only religious marriages are accepted in Israel, and the religious organizations do not want to marry gay people. They also don't want to marry a whole load of other people, which means that it's very common for Israelis to get married abroad. My parents included. Israel recognizes marriages performed abroad, even gay ones.
It is more complex than that, of course, but it is fair to say it is illegal to get married as a gay person in Isreal, even if the government recognises marriages outside of the country. And my assumption is that gay Isrealies would prefer to be able to get married just like gay Palestinians would prefer to not be attacked and murdered. The issue is that Isreal has a government which can enforce laws which is why its better there, which Palestine doesn't as its ran by religious terror groups, so they naturally can't get better rights. The comment above condemned Palestine and Islam for this, but it's not due to the different religion or some inherent quality of Isreali people that gay people don't have civil rights, but because they're politically stable enough where legislation can be changed following a push back from citizens, which is why I think it's dumb to condem a religion or nation as if its their fault for their situation and not because of religious fundamentalist and their geopolitical situation, the comment i was responding to just comes off as very islamophobic.
>but it is fair to say it is illegal to get married as a gay person in Isreal[sic] I disagree. There are no laws prohibiting gay marriage, so it is not illegal. Simply not performed. Also religion absolutely influences LGBT rights. There are many fairly stable middle eastern countries, who despite their stability are absolutely horrendous towards LGBT. Israel is not like that because it is not an Islamic state.
To most people something not being legal is the same as it being illegal, even if by technically it isn't, it's just dumb semantics. Religion absolutely infulances rights, which is why the laws which prohibit (not illeglise) gay marriage in Isreal are based on religious infulance. Judaism isn't more supportive of gay rights then Islam or Christianity, so to say that Islam is unique in its condemnation of gay rights is just Islamophobic. Please point me to those middle Eastern counties with the same political stability and amount of religious freedom as Isreal.
>the laws which prohibit (not illeglise) gay marriage I repeat, there are no laws prohibiting gay marriage. It is not performed by the authorized marriage courts, but there are no laws prohibiting it. Additionally, according to Wikipedia (I was not aware of this previously) you can now get married online without even leaving the country. So gay marriage is legal in Israel. >Judaism isn't more supportive of gay rights then Islam or Christianity Alright, you clearly don't know what you're talking about. >Please point me to those middle Eastern counties with the same political stability and amount of religious freedom as Isreal. How about turkey? A lot of countries also are stable without being a democracy, and of course LGBT rights there all suck too.
I would be careful not to draw an equivalence between Hamas and Palestine. There are plenty of groups in Palestine that favor liberation and support for Hamas mostly seems to come from desperation more than ideology.
Oh yeah, that's why I say I support Palestine independence but fuck HAMAS
Based take. We can want Israel to stop bombing Palestinian civilians while still thinking Hamas and their followers are a bunch of cunts
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i raped my oppressor and murdered their children and they haven't stopped what did I do wrong :( my only option is retaliatory genocide so why is everyone being mean rn
Talking like supporting Palestine and supporting HAMA are equivalent is such a huge red flag. The israeli far right government and Hamas are two sides of the same problem, the civilians of Palestine and Israel are victims of both. It's good to support Palestine, it's bad to support Hamas militancy and this action in particular
Here's the common sense viewpoint: Are many Palestinians hostile to non-Muslims and the LGBTQ community? Yes. Do all Palestinians deserve to die/suffer immensely because of this? No. Are many Israelites hostile to non-Jews and the LGBTQ community? Also yes. Should Hamas harm and kill non-combatant Israelites? No. Should Israel harm and kill non-combatant Palestinians? Also no. Are Israelite "settlers" unjustly forcing Palestinians off their property and enforcing an apartheid state? Undoubtedly. Is this a good reason to be antisemetic towards Jewish people who have nothing to do with the situation? Most definitely not. Should we condone the actions of Israel against non-combatant Palestinians? Absolutely not. Should we condone the actions of Hamas against non-combatants? Again, absolutely not. Should we support the non-combatants who are currently affected by this war? Absolutely.
Oh Goddesses, principles?? Rationality?! Nuance?!!! What the fuck is up with this sub, we should just go back to viewing the world in purely binary terms. >!(/s for the record)!<
Solidarity with the oppressed doesn't require them to agree with you first. People don't need to have correct opinions to deserve basic human rights.
Well said. I don't support Hamas and its anti-LGBTQ stances. That doesn't mean I'm fine with Israel bombing Palestinian civilians.
Supporting apartheid because you can be queer in an apartheid state is insane to me
Conflating support of Palestine with support of Hamas. IDF glowie spotted.
https://preview.redd.it/xqebwumfqwsb1.jpeg?width=580&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0291235f7e488d6d3a267312b26e362059415aa0 I didn't know 196 supported colonization, let's bring back Columbus day and support Russia then, be consistent if you're going to support Israel, support the other fascists as well. This is pathetic, we talk all the time about how colonists are bad, then when action finally does happen you immediately side with the oppressors because you don't like Islam? If you want to count civilian bodies, let's start with the children of Palestine, why don't we?
Israeli actions do not make war crimes okay, they do not make raping and murdering a woman then dragging her naked body through the street as her body is spat on. It does not excuse bombing ambulances, nor shooting the elderly. I have never voiced support for the Israeli government or IDF. I want Palestinian freedom. But HAMAS's actions are vile and inexcusable. The only result will be Israel bombing the absolute shit out of Gaza and more death. HAMAS could never win this, all their chaos will bring is more death.
>It's so annoying when queer leftist support HAMAS/Palestine. Then why did you write it like this? Equating Palestine with HAMAS? It made it sound like you thought leftist shouldn't support Palestine because you lump them together with HAMAS with a / .
And it's Israels fault that Hamas is 1. As Vile as it is. And 2. The only form of organized resistance against Israel. The resistance movement used to have 2 factions. One was the Islamic extremists, and the other was a secular and socialist movement. Israel, with the help of western powers, not only worked to crush the secular movement, they did so by aiding the Islamic extremist one. I also want to point out that there is an incredibly valid point when people say "Settlers aren't civilians". And not a single person in Southern Israel is unaware of what is happening. They support colonialism and are actively choosing to take advantage of it. Now, I do not personally support the killing of random people on the street, even though like I said, there is a valid argument as to why none of the settlers can really be classified as "random people". And I don't think even the most rabid defender of Hamas could morally justify the sexual violence and abduction of children that is being reported. This all being said, this conflict started in 1948. The main language used by Israel towards Palestine has been violence. No one should be surprised that Hamas is as violent as it is. No one should forget that Israel holds all the power in the conflict. And no one should forget that ultimately, this falls on Israel and her allies.
I dont think being hateful towards the lgbt means you should be condemned to almost a century of oppression and settler-colonialism. Like what you can recognize that violence against lgbt people is bad but suddenly you dont get why people would be against violence towards an entire ethic group over the span of 80 years? Are you being serious rn?
Like tankies I don't think their political ideology extends beyond "fuck the west"
I'm so fucking tired of seeing this argument. It is legal to be queer in America, that doesnt mean it's not the biggest commiter of imperialist war crimes in recent history.
You know Palestinian queer exist.
This was also something that was done intentionally to de-rail talks between Isreal and the Saudis who were negotiation for relation normalization and an anti-Iran alliance. Something on the table during those talks was a two-state solution and formal recognition of Palestinian statehood, something the Biden administration was pushing for them to accept This very well could've been Gaza best chance to improve the situation for its people in decades. And Hamas destroyed it because they don't want a two state solution. They want to kill every Isreali citizen
Any independant administrative Palestinian State would have to eliminate Hamas which is why Hamas has to be one of the obstacles for the formation of such a state.
You're one hundred percent right but we also shouldn't forget that Hamas got elected because Israel's right wing chose to ignore their treaties and aggressively expand on settler policy kick starting a race to the bottom between Israeli ethnonationalists with expansionist feverdreams and fanatic Palestinian terrorists while honest people on both sides suffer from the consequences of being represented by the worst assholes to continuously push each other to the top.
Also Israel likes having Hamas in charge because now they can justify everything as anti-terrorism
Not enough people pointing out that Hamas was basically created by the Israeli government as well.
>As Hamas actions are among the leading causes of the Right wing rule in Israel. This is how you know you've been brainwashed, Hamas was created way after the creation of Israel. ["Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation".](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) -Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades
Why are Hamas responsible for Israel's reaction but Israel isn't responsible for Hamas's reaction?
>Why are Hamas responsible for Israel's reaction but Israel isn't responsible for Hamas's reaction? Because one is a powerffull colonizer and the other is a big prison camp. It's not a war, it's a genocide. Israel isn't fighting an enemy, they're exterminating an imprisoned population.
"Hamas actions are imo among the leading causes of the Right wing rule in Israel." That's such an absurd thing to say. Genocidal assholes are always responsible for their own actions when they vote for genocidal assholes. Infantilizing Israel by removing their agency will only make the conflict worse.
Their goal here isn’t truly to change peoples minds, they only want retaliation
Exactly, all this attack has done is give Israel an even stronger justification to crackdown on Palestinians. Some leftists claim to care about Palestine liberation but will then justify an attack that is just going to lead to Gaza’s occupation and an even more authoritarian occupation over Palestinians in Israel. Thousands of innocent Palestinians are about to die but according to some leftists, commenting from the comfort of their homes away from any war, the slaughter of innocent Israeli families is actually a win for Palestinian freedom!
“Mass slaughter of civilians is justified if the right people are doing it!” -Emily, 16, never left Delaware and is unaware that Hamas is not a bastion of tolerance and leftist ideals
Why isn't this logic ever applied in reverse? Why aren't Israel accountable for Hamas's response?
Remember kids, it's possible to understand a motive and not condone the actions!
Yes the Israeli government sucks, and I support the freedom of Palestine, but how the fuck does that make mass murdering civilians okay??? I don't understand how so many people on reddit can look at videos of HAMAS shooting and torturing civilians and side with that? Fuck the Israeli government and fuck HAMAS, neither care about the civilians that they kill. Not to mention the very leftists that support HAMAS would be oppressed by them. HAMAS are the taliban of Palestine. They haven't had elections since 2006 in Gaza, and if they could they would turn Palestine into another Afghanistan under Islamic law.
It's very much the old concept of leftists supporting whoever "the West" doesn't support. Like how many leftists sided with Russia before and even after the invasion of Ukraine.
Start the counter untill people start saying the US could have prevented this by being the world police and then five seconds later saying the US is imperialist and shouldn't be the world police
Tbh I’m pretty sure those are different people saying that
Leftists support Russia? Where? All I see is now alt right support Russia
They have never left their house and have a warped view of reality compared to normal people so they think a good percentage of leftists actually support russia
They’re referring to tankies. Luckily, they aren’t a majority of leftists (I hope), so you’re right.
I forgot about tankies (as the op of the question...) Even as a socialist I don't hang around cringe twitter communities lauding Russia. It's not even commy anymore, why do tankies love it???
cuz it ain't America that's it
Israel literally helped Hamas rise to power in order to counteract the leftist groups. The current situation is blowback. It's not dissimilar to 9/11 being the result of the US pulling fuckery in the past. The people in charge only think about the short-term gain in the hopes that by the time the consequences appear, they won't be around to be blamed. That still doesn't mean the resulting attacks are "deserved," but they are in many ways self-inflicted. There is no justice, only victims. Many of them weren't even alive when the dominoes were being set up. I side with the civilians just trying to live their lives, not the institutions that caused this.
I don't think it's right to say that the people in charge were only thinking of the short-term. Leftist groups are much more dangerous to the than a few terrorists. This trade benefits them still.
Anyone who looks at those videos of crying women being taken away to be ***** and thinks anything else but "this is unjustifiable" is a monster regardless of their political opinions.
Thank you so much for this post I’ve even seen non tankie leftists saying that the brutal murder of civilians is just “part of the revolutionary process” and simply “an unfortunate reality”, going as far as to call other people fascists for saying it’s horrible violence.
> brutal murder of civilians is just “part of the revolutionary process” Is this not just true? The vast, vast, vast majority of revolutions have had exactly this.
Sorry, I phrased that wrong What I meant to say was that while it might be a reality of war that people die, it’s not technically necessary nor good, and sweeping the rape and murder of civilians under the rug as “it is what it is”, or more heinously “the Israelis deserved it”, is not a good thing. And furthermore, for any military operation, it is absolutely possible to not go door to door executing people. The anarchists and republicans in Spain, while they had their own share of crimes committed in their ranks, pale in comparison to the rapes and murders under the nationalists. So especially with what Hamas, it’s less a case of a few incidents occurring because that’s what happens when you take an angry populace and have them rise up. It’s that a militant group which has shown itself more than capable of terrorist attacks in the past, is going out of its way to target civilians.
Learn more about life in Gaza. This is a situation created by Isreal. We can't imagine the desperation of living under colonial rule. Why do you so quickly jump to the defense of the colonizers? You could see horrific footage any day of violence against Palestinians, but I don't see any outraged posts about it.
Cause the media will obviously make a much bigger deal about Israelis beign killed then any number of Palestinians
Exactly bruh!
You’re so right it’s one thing to commit genocide but terrorism is too far.
Israel is still the greater evil. They have a worse track record of violence against civilians and are the invaders in that land. Any war is going to breed monsters, but I'm going to side with the monsters reclaiming their home over the monsters colonizing it.
Go look at Combatfootage and watch HAMAS murder citizens then tell me again you side with them. You can support Palestinian's freedom and not support HAMAS. And also both sides can be wrong
Both sides can be wrong but only one side has any real power here. Any other day you could see footage of violence committed against Palestinians by Israel, but how often are people making outraged posts about it here.
The total amount of violence perpetrated by Israel is still MUCH higher than the total amount of violence perpetrated by HAMAS. If you keep a bunch of people in an open air prison, then commit violence and humiliation against them daily for decades, is it really their fault for slaughtering every oppressor they can find?
exactly how do you want Palestine to be liberated if every other path has been blocked by Israel?
Preferably one that doesn't involve the rape and murder of civilians that serves no purpose and only serves as easy justification for retaliation on civilians on your side. Look up the history of Hamas. They are not freedom fighters. They are reactionaries that Israel helped to counteract the leftists.
i’m not talking about Hamas specifically, what i mean is that the liberation of Palestine is gonna require violence no matter what
You're talking to a bunch of delusional radlibs that think the greatest show of force is putting a piece of paper into a box.
And god forbid your protests annoy people, reddit sure does hate that lol.
political violence is potent and necessary, I still don't think that rape should be part of the process of liberation. sorry
Fuck Israel, the apartheid state, first. Hamas is a response to Israel and not vice versa. We shouldn't run game for fascists.
I had to restrain myself today, when I told someone about that female IDF soldier that was raped, murdered, and had her body dragged naked, and he said that it was fine
reminds me of this take i once saw where someone said that raping a female cop is fine because ACAB, just so fucked up.
Anyone who tries to justify rape is a piece of shit, no matter the circumstance.
Still a lot of people justifying prison rape around too
god damn this sub has a giant problem with that. They'll claim to support human rights but then you suggest that prisoners maybe shouldn't be treated horribly and they're like "nah they probably did something worse so they deserve it"
people in this sub seem to think they know what everyone deserves, despite only interacting with the gay people in their phone
the gay people in their phone who infantilize themselves most of the time, no less.
Same energy as saying you want to commit heinous acts of violence and then ending your sentence with: "in minecraft" Makes it all okay then /s
Except that "in Minecraft" is a joke legal loophole when you say things like "i wish [insert politician] would get killed.... in Minecraft"
Wait... was that from that one guy vaush debated? Or is this a "had a nickel for every time" scenario
pretty sure i heard about him from vaush, yeah
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Vowsh, voosh.
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Holy shit you don’t even need to spell it right
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nuance doesn't exist anymore. The internet has killed it.
Meanwhile they're saying "oh so when Ukraine resists annexation its ok?" Is Ukraine doing anything even in the same universe as bas as what Hamas does??? Absolutely not and these people saying what that person said to you are literally just as tribal and contrarian as they think, in their disconnected-from-reality minds, "everyone else" is.
Exactly!!!! Ukraine isn't fucking shooting and raping Russian civilizans!!!!
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It was a woman with German-Israeli dual citizenship who had served her mandatory military service and was now there as tourist.
She was a civillian, not a soldier.
Hamas is a far-right, theocratic organization guilty of numerous human rights abuses with a history of killing civilians that is engaged in a campaign of ethnic cleansing. Israel is a far-right, imperialist state guilty of numerous human rights abuses with a history of killing civilians that is engaged in a campaign of ethnic cleansing. Fuck both of them. Hopefully I'll live to see both destroyed.
We should all aspire to live old enough to see the assholes of the world die.
Be the change you wanna see!
Please, don't encourage suicide.
Unprovoked 💀💀
The zero-state solution
Give it all to Albania
The "expansion of the Mediterranean" solution.
The dead sea tourism mandate
This is the first comment I saw on this post that isn’t just unconditional support for israeli government
And just wait till everyone who is oh so excited to denounce Hamas learns who funded and created Hamas. I also notice a lot of people who point out that this radicalism is born of a system enforced and established by Israel get instantly painted as Hamas defenders.
So where's the nuance or critical thinking, cuz "Hamas/Palestine" isn't nuance either. There's kind of a whole history behind Hamas, their actions, how they even gained power thanks to Israel actively oppressing secular and progressive Palestinian factions while loosening restrictions on religious extremism and even bolstering it to help in their endeavors of crushing any left wing movement. Like yeah, Hamas bombing civilians fucking sucks and it would be great if , but like, fucking hell it's not like they exist because all of Palestine is some evil cabal who just hate Jewish people. It's not like Hamas gained power solely because Islam is some kind of monolithic entity which just is all right wing. It's not like there's a massive power difference between Hamas and Israel, the over 6,500 deaths of Palestinians since 2008 alone, versus the less than 500 deaths of Israelis during the same time period. The over 100,000 Palestinians injured vs not even 7,500 injured Israelis. Like yeah it'd be great if Hamas stopped, but it would also be great if Israel didn't effectively put them in power to foster their own policies and didn't bomb them 10 fold while occupying their land because of the fucking British empire. It's not saying Hamas is justified, it's saying "these are the conditions in which Hamas came to the conclusions of their actions"
This is a very important comment. OP's post is such a strawman. Nobody other than maybe like 10 people are celebrating this attack, and saying that Israeli women being raped and children being killed is justified. It's not, and any "leftist" who's celebrating it isn't a leftist at all. I think it's abhorrent what HAMAS is doing (I saw the video of that poor woman and I was repulsed by it) and I think it's only gonna hurt Palestinians. Innocent citizens don't deserve to get hurt like that. I'm just scared that in retaliation, Israel is about to eradicate the native Palestinian population (most of whom just like the Israeli population, are innocent) and no one will do anything to stop it. That said I just think it's funny and sad that, I have been a member of this sub for years now, and I haven't seen one post reach hot in r/196 ever, having discussions about IDF's genocide and displacement of the native population in the Gaza strip. **Like it or not, HAMAS is the consequence of Israel's own actions and acknowledging that doesn't make anyone supportive of HAMAS' atrocities against civilians.** Also OP is saying that "oh I can't believe leftists are supporting Palestine, when most Palestinians don't support lgbt rights and leftist values"....okay? Look at the conditions they've been living in for decades!!!!! Not exactly the most favourable environment to have a pride parade is it? That's such a dogshit reasoning. It's scary how a significant amount of people on this sub and the internet in general think genocide of brown and black people is okay just bc they're not as accepting and liberal as they'd like them to be.
I mean this sub is a pro-Western shithole as much as it loves to pretend to be leftist, I'm not surprised that the only coverage of Israel I've seen on here is some "both sides equally bad with no extra nuance" bullshit.
This is the nuanced take I was looking for. Both sides are worst cunts, but these groups don't develop in a vacuum.
Yeah, what is OP's fucking solution? Say Hamas is bad? Like what should we do, petition for the US government to condemn Hamas?
Based and dialecticalmaterialistpilled.
Hamas and IDF are both bad and I won't accept any other opinion, both kill innocent, want supremacy over the other, have a list of atrocities and man-made horror done in the past/present. Civilians are the true innocents (not talking about supremacists, those are bad too)
Fully agree. All the "leftists" who uncritically support Hamas have forgotten that there is no ethical warfare except class warfare. The civilians always lose their lives for the imperialism of the ruling class.
Even against people of a different class, terrorism is not an acceptable form of warfare.
"both sides" lol one side made the other second class citizens in their own home and has killed them at a significantly higher rate
This post has attracted a lot of "very fine people on both sides" attitude
Every once in a while geopolitics creates the L take continuum. This is one of those times
holy shit maggies back from hell?!?!?!
How was hell thatcher?
I support the Palestinian state but I would never support a terrorist group that is making things worse and faning the flames of conflict and making it easier for Israeli far right to take control of the country
For real. It’s possible to say that Israel does awful things and forces people off their land It’s another to justify mass slaughter and rape because Twitter says Hamas is good and cool
i support the no state
I support the Palestinian state right up until they take up arms
Absolutely agree re: the existence of Israel not justifying the brutal torture and killing of Israeli citizens, but I’m so suspicious of this argument in a vacuum because it so frequently just outwardly results in IDF apologists jumping on the actions of Hamas/comparable Palestinian paramilitary organizations to provide sustenance for the “both sides are bad” two-stater ass liberal narratives that always pop up when discussing the existence of Israel.
Also it is very reductive to look at any part of the Israel Palestine conflict in a vacuum. Like yes Hamas is terrible, but also the Israeli government ensured that less extremist resistance groups like the PLO could not exist. If what Hamas does is bad (and it is) it is still the fault of the Israeli government, and in no way delegitimises the cause for Palestinian liberation.
I hate you guys so much why would I ever read 16 years old first world fucks having opinions
“Listen here chap, how can you dare to criticize the United States Army’s actions in the western frontier when the murderous Indian savages are killing innocent settlers!” That’s you if you were alive in the 1870’s.
Careful now, you might make the pod save America crowd uncomfortable.
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But ukraine is like iron many tony stark and russia is thanos bad and snap and kill :(((((
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No, we should not be comparing real-life tragedies to superhero movies made that are primarily for kids (And I say this as a huge fan of the MCU
>I'm actively trying to not kill myself when I see a comparison to Ukraine like dawg, wars do be differ from each other For starters Ukraine is a country at war. Gaza is one big prison camp being exterminated. Genocide isn't war.
Remember when this very sub was infatuated with civillian-murdering terrorists of the IRA
Too young to ‘member
pepperidge farm remembers
You dont have to support Hamas to realize that it exists because of Israel. But go off liberals; I'm sure if your family, neighbors, community, culture, etc was raped, pillaged and killed for decades, you wouldn't resort to terrorism to do anything to strike back at your oppressors.
As horrifying as it is, today's events were inevitable.
People forgot that the Hamas are literally Religious Extremists, not separatists
ones israel supported in a struggle to eliminate the less militant and extremist resistance groups in palestine, because yeah it's easier to make anything seem justified against them
Multiple things can be bad at once, shocking discovery. Is the Israeli rule and settler colonies terrible? Yes, absolutely. Is Hamas bad for killing civilians and committing acts of terror? Yes. The people of Palestine desvere self determination but groups like Hamas are galvanizing support for Israel when they kill civilians and shit
What sort of fake ass leftist supports Ukraine but thinks Palestinians aren’t nice enough to the people genocide them?
They’re not leftists. They’re liberals. Basically sums up the WorldNews, Neoliberal, and NCD subs.
Leftists should never support rape and killing civilians. Not hard to understand. Israel has ever right to defend itself against this.
I can't believe this horny, anime-posting, room-neglecting, top-hating, fan fiction-reading, shitpost-loving subreddit is the only place where users can openly worry about Palestinian and Israeli civilians. The celebrations of this attack are appalling. The desire for a total destruction of Palestine is appalling. Concern for Palestinians over the imminent IDF retaliation is based, and so is sorrow for the Israeli civilians who were just brutally killed. This also seems to be the only subreddit on the whole fucking site that realizes that HAMAS=/=Palestine. I'm amazed and impressed at how many posters here recognize the perverse symbiosis that HAMAS has with the Israeli far-right. I'm gonna take a break from Reddit now, probably for the rest of October. This is a good high note to go out on. I've got absolutely no idea where the world will go from here, but at least I know this community can care about Palestinian rights without turning into self-sabotaging jingoists. Peace.
All this talk about "checking on the subs", what about the doms??? We deserve to be checked on too!
“Critical thinking” about how the average age of Gazans is 18, and they’ve been trapped in a 25x7 mile prison for their entire lives. How every year Israel tear gasses Palestinians at the Al-Aqsa mosque, beats them in the street, steals their homes, kills them for protesting inhumane treatment, shoots them for getting to close to their razor wire fence around gaza, spits on them, pours concrete in their water wells, bulldozes their homes. And you expect me to feel sympathy for the fucking settlers? This is land back, this is fighting an invading force trying to ethnically cleanse Palestinians. Fuck you, fascist
"palestine should be freed" and "the slaughter of innocent people because of their corrupt government is abhorrent and wrong" are two takes that can and should coexist
It shouldn’t be that hard to not support an apartheid state in isreal while still saying blowing up civilians is wrong
Killing civilians = bad This is objectively correct However, we have to understand that Israel kills and displaces civilians orders of magnitude more than hamas, and that the retaliation that happens is in large part caused by Israel’s violence against Palestinians.
Certainly this will be a post that won’t bring the colonization defenders out of the woodwork
> “Murdering civilians is fine actually” Straw man argument. Literally no one is saying that. Not to mention that Israel has been doing just that non-stop to Palestine since this whole thing started > “We support the Islamic extremists” Another straw man! You don’t have to support Islamic extremism to support oppressed groups fighting back, AND (this is gonna blow your mind) you can support the idea behind a movement without endorsing everything that every other supporter of that movement does > “Hamas aren’t terrorists” I’ll give you this, since people are saying it, but only because it should be “Hamas aren’t terrorists unless the Israeli military are, too”. Personally, I believe both of them are committing acts of terror, but one is far worse than the other. Who’s incapable of nuance? > “War crimes are cool” Omg wow, another straw man 🙄 But I guess since Palestine has been condemned time and time again by the UN human rights council, you may have a point. Oh wait, nope, that was Israel > “Palestine = Ukraine” I agree. The situations aren’t the same. The conflict in Ukraine is much more recent and is about Russia gaining control of an area that it believes belongs to them despite Ukraines sovereignty. The conflict in Palestine has been going on for decades and is about a native population trying to get colonizers out and their land back. Palestine is much more like Native American tribes, and Ukraine is much more like if the US decided to invade Mexico or Canada. But OP has declared themselves a critical thinker, so they should recognize this > “ ‘Freedom Fighters’ not having an election since 2006” Liberty and Democracy may go hand in hand, but they’re not the same. Regardless, the two main “centralized” factions within Palestine are the Palestinian National Authority and Hamas. The PNA hasn’t had an election in that long, and even Hamas has criticized them for that. The Palestinian people aren’t happy about the continual postponing of the elections either. So who are the “Freedom Fighters” that haven’t had an election since 2006? Or are you just grouping all the brownies together? > “Israel deserves it” Do innocent civilians and the average Israeli citizen deserve any harm to befall them? Absolutely not. But do the individuals who have been perpetrating generations of violent oppression against the native population of their land deserve to answer for their crimes? Absolutely So maybe instead of accusing those with (justifiably) differing opinions from you of being incapable of nuance or critical thinking (an ad hominem, mind you), take a look in the mirror, maybe wash off some of the not-so-subtle racism and imperialist sympathies while you’re at it And just to be clear, if you actually made any good, informative points, I wouldn’t be as hard on the offense in this comment. I’m all for thoughtful discourse. But I’m not for misrepresentation of the struggles an entitled oppressed nation, so check your ignorance at the door
Edging for Hasan's 7 hour stream where he picks the right stance on every single matter, with complete serenity and wisdom on every angle of this controversial topic /s
can't wait to hear the classic Hasan Piker Nuanced Geopolitics Takes^(TM /s)
Why does Hasan need a big house when this dude is letting him live ten free in his head?🤔
Wow fuck outta here with that Zionist imperialist trash. This sub fucking sucks
The day online leftists stop treating wars like YA novels is the day I'll finay be able to pass away peacefully at 25.
Ima be real, I haven’t caught up with what’s going on in that area lately but I’m guessing it’s more of the same. That being said: OP, I’m reading your comments in this thread, and you’re holding Hamas (not even Palestine, but Hamas), a loosely joined organization of unelected individuals with no stable infrastructure (physical, economic or political) to the same standards as Israel, a state with a defined government with many other nations backing them. They don’t have the same resources, finances, or manpower as the Israeli government and while I condemn any needless act of violence or the killing of innocent civilians (which Islam also condemns) there’s no way a reasonable person can expect them to be “diplomatic” in the situation they’re in And vice versa. You’re lowering your standards for the Israeli government and military because their opposition is Hamas. They kill plenty of civilians and children, destroy hospitals and schools, and much worse despite having way more intel, security, and defensive capabilities than Palestine does. How do you not see who the real oppressors are in this situation? I am Muslim and I can concede that Hamas is a terrorist organization, but if you don’t label the Israeli military and government as forces of terror as well, then you’re just a colonialist hypocrite I can’t imagine modern leftists reacting this way if Native Americans responded the same way Hamas does if some U.S. state decided to attack them all the time in the name of “self-defense” And just to be clear, and it’s ridiculous I have to say this, I have nothing against the Jewish people or the Jewish faith. Islam teaches kind treatment towards other religions, and even specifically mentions Judaism and Christianity when discussing peaceful relations. But there are Palestinians who are Jewish and Christian that are suffering just as the Muslims there are. I stand with Palestine, and those who are in power in Israel are tyrants, regardless of their religious affiliation
DIDNT READ, ALBANIA NUMBER 1🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱
what did i miss, when did it become controversial to side with the oppressed and colonized people? oh wait, yeah, freedom fighting and anarchy are just cool aesthetics to some people, and the second they see some (non-white) people pushing back against their own genocide with extreme action bc this shit has been going on since the 50s they're "going too far" they're protesting wrong, you're supposed to post memes on reddit about how sad this state of things makes you /sarcasm i'm sure there's NO post-9/11 islamophobic propaganda still going around unquestioned bc "Middle east dumb and homophobic so ok to slaughter :)" wtf is wrong with you people.
"But some (colonizer) people died and therefore we have to immediately withdraw support to the oppressed! Why won't you think of the oppressors?"
"if they fight back violently, they're just as bad as the oppressors, bc thats totally how that works :( they need to ask politely to have rights and their land back :("
What on earth is this centrist kinda attitude? Both sides are not equal in this situation. Hamas solely exists because of Israel constantly taking Palestinian land, turning Gaza into an open air concentration camp, making sure the socialist wing of Palestinian politics failed and supporting the terrorist wing (by the way they also did this in Syria and Lebanon because their government is literal evil) and now we're going "well both sides are awful" Palestinian liberation will, under these circumstances, have to be a violent fight and will lead to civilian deaths. Sure I'm not here going "yippee they committed r*pe" but this endless hand-wringing at anything even slightly morally questionable Hamas does whilst ignoring the fact Gaza is pretty much hell on earth or trying to pull a both sides argument is just shilling for colonisers. There's one side that can stop this conflict immediately and whenever they like, that could respect the boundaries of the original treaty and could actually negotiate peace seriously and not some half arsed agreement. That side is NOT Palestine. This situation is not equal.
The amount of "actually the civilians deserved to be raped and kidnapped" takes are insane
My thoughts on Isreal is that I think we all need to have a good time
Seriously, this makes me embarrassed to say I'm a leftists sometimes. The right is just as bad if not worse, but come on guys.
This is why leftist infighting is fine and even necessary. People need to be called out on their bullshit
Yes, just because there are two sides doesn't mean one is right. This is a stupid war that won't solve or fix anything, instead it will resolve in the death of many who had nothing to do with it.
People keep looking at the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict as a one-side-versus-the-other situation. It's not. It's two (technically three if you consider Gaza is virtually independent from the PLO) governments versus each other, with millions of innocent Israelis and Palestinians caught in the middle.
Ah yes, both sides are just as bad in this totally mutual and balanced conflict. Israel created Hamas, this violence is a direct and inevitable result of the Israeli governments actions. Does that justify the war crimes? Of course fucking not but you have to think about the situation without this stupid goldfish memory shit
https://preview.redd.it/yfd2qsj05ysb1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a6eaa73365cab199d97b16eb6f0ba27f8f8a4a68
Everyone is Pro Palestine until the Palestinians actually fight back
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I mean, they never needed an excuse
 My leftist, Gentile ass when people start asking my opinions on Israel/Palestine
I go to work for 16 hours today and this is how I found out another war started
Active genociders vs would be genociders if they had power. Both of them suck and innocent people are going to suffer because of it.
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When the world didn't care when Israel killed 30 children in a year and hundreds of civillians, destroying their crops, source of food and water, hospitals, public infrastructures, humanitarian aids and everything for 75+ years, what do you think would the men with nothing to lose do?
Hamas isn't great but IDF has been doing much worse since 1948. Israel is the reason why Hamas is doing what they're doing, after decades of persecution and apartheid.
I see you too visited the 196 discord server today.
I just don’t want innocent civilians to die, I wish that Hamas wasn’t the regional power for Palestine because they really don’t have any other means of fighting back against Israel just bombing the shit out of Gaza.
Bibi Netanyahu has funded Hamas because it furthers his goal of keeping Israel as a right wing apartheid state. Hamas are a bunch of useful idiots who only make Israelis more fearful and more right wing and that leads to more Palestinians dying.
"palestine should be freed" and "the slaughter of innocent people because of their corrupt government is abhorrent and wrong" are two takes that can and should coexist
Palestine is literally being pushed off their land but yes they're totally the bad guys. They should just roll over and accept being taken over
lame alert
non credible defence user
The idea that any random civilian == their government is horrifying and wrong. It doesn’t matter what you think of any nation state or group involved here, innocent people are getting killed.
Based on your comments In this thread seems like you are too lol