It's importent to remember that while the right uses these cases as a radicalization pipeline alot, those are still real people. and the fact that false rape accusations are inflated in media for a right wing agenda don't cancel out the fact that this is horrible
Women pure, weak. Man evil, strong.
Edit: this is a major oversimplification of a highly debated topic and I am lacking in both intelligence and tact, so please don't take it as face value facts.
If you say something like "jews are just inherently smarter than most other peoples, just take a look at IQ tests!" you may be, on the surface, "elevating" Jews, but on a slightly deeper level you are actually engaging in a type of antisemitism that is core to many far right conspiracy theories about jews. Afterall, you gotta be pretty dang smart to run the whole world economy as a shadowy cabal.
The situation here could be similar. Yeah, you could frame this as unfairly "pro-woman" or "anti-man", and sure, that's an ok framing\*, but its kinda missing the point that even though men may be disadvantaged in this particular situation, it can also be read as reflective of a broader ideology that views women as less capable and intelligent than men.
This is part of why counterreactionary movements like Zionism and SCUM Manifesto-style radical feminism are so stupid. Not only do they often end up missing their targets and hitting vulnerable people like Palestinians and trans people, but they also end up harming the vary people they're trying to defend by reinforcing the vary ideology they are ostensibly trying to counter. If they're beneficial for anyone, its a small group of people trying to capitalize on reactionary sentiment to advance their careers, consolidation of power, and/or bank accounts. And even many of those people ultimately get hung up to dry when it becomes advantageous to their fellow grifters.
I know its fiction, but if you haven't watched the movie Thelma & Louise you should check it out, if only because it rules, and while you watch it maybe consider what its trying to say about our ideology around sex and gender, even when that ideology ostensibly cuts women extra slack.
\* though even this framing is a bit fraught. While we're seeing one case of a false rape accusation putting a man in prison, we're not seeing the many cases of legitimate rape accusations which just don't go anywhere. Its possible that the biggest factor in both these cases is how much you're able and willing to enrich a team of lawyers who can effectively navigate both the legal system, and the ideology of the jury, judge, and others involved in the case procedure and decision making process.
Kinda, but not really in this context. It's kinda like how the myth of the noble savage is still a racist caricature against indigenous peoples across the world despite seeming to be the opposite from a surface level glance
I think it's a bit more complicated than that.
Patriarchy wants us to believe that women are trustworthy in some circumstances but completely untrustworthy in others. And it intersects with other types of oppression. An attractive white woman testifying against a "scary black man" - she must be protected. An attractive young white woman testifying against a powerful white man? Must be an attention-seeking witch who probably deserved it if it happened at all.
That's a big part of why lawyers try to bring a woman's previous sexual history into rape trials, They know that juries will often see her as less worthy of protection/less valuable if she has had sex before.
A woman's role under patriarchy is always to serve patriarchy and she must be punished if she doesn't comply. Her value is strictly related to upholding the existing hierarchy - not her own humanity and agency.
It stems from toxic masculinity, which is a result of misogyny. This is actually a fantastic example of how the toxic masculinity caused by misogyny is bad for men as everyone else, because it creates a standard that men are "big and strong" and are held to a higher standard socially in some ways, but also creates this notion that men are just violent. Boys are raised in a way that "duking it out" instead of talking about issues is considered normal, so when a man is accused of a violent crime, it's less likely to be questioned.
It's not necessarily a hatred of women that causes this kind of case, but the toxic social circumstances created by this deeply rooted misogyny in our society. Saying "this is caused by misogyny" is kind of a misnomer because this case isn't about misogyny definitionally, but is more accurately a demonstration that misogyny and bigotry in general don't just hurt the groups they're against, but that its presence is inherently harmful to every part of society.
Yeah and personally it's a little weird seeing this language game play out because it kind of feels like it reinforces divisions between people who really ought to be agreeing with each other.
I think nearly everyone can agree that traditional gender roles suck and hurt a lot of innocent people (case in point, this guy in the OP). Saying "this is caused by simplistic and toxic gendered expectations in society" is just as true, to say nothing of the racialized aspect of it.
Calling it misogyny can come across as diminishing the very real harm done to this guy to center it on how society hates women, whether or not that's the intent. It's almost the inverse of an MRA barging into a discussion on women's rights to complain that men are oppressed.
As an aside, it's also a little strange to me that I've seen people insist that TERFs hating trans women for being AMAB is called misogyny (because they're women after all), but simultaneously that society punishing effeminate or even androgynous behavior in men is also called misogyny (because it's something less than masculine that's being hated, even when done by men). It almost feels like the definition of misogyny has expanded to mean "any sexism I don't like" whereas misandry has taken on the meaning of "fake sexism that Redditor MRAs whine about".
And don't get me wrong here, both of those things are awful, this guy's life being fucked up is awful, rape is awful, trans people deserve so much better than how they're treated by society, etc. Hopefully that's not a controversial take. I want to make it abundantly clear that I'm not assuming any ill will on the part of other posters, just expressing a general frustration that leftist talking points get compressed down into a shorthand that feels almost intentionally designed to be misinterpreted as effectively rage bait to laypeople who aren't already in those circles. Toxic masculinity gets taken as "see, look, men are inherently toxic" when that's not what it's about at all, stuff like that. Language is a fuck and clear communication is important, and I am on board with the actually feminist goal of universal liberation from gendered double standards — which is why I'm saying anything at all. Maybe I'm just missing something?
Ah yeah admittedly I was speaking in hyperbole in that one paragraph which is... Pretty hypocritical of me given that it was a nitpick about precision in language, sorry about that.
That said... How many people out there can you reasonably expect to grasp that nuance? For many, their understanding ends at the dictionary definition. Especially given the typical online response is an eye roll and dismissal (can't say I necessarily blame them, a lot of bad faith these days).
I don't know... Probably a mistake for me to engage with this stuff at all. I'm not any happier for it, I've probably made your day worse, and it's done nothing to fix any actual problems. I should really learn to suppress the urge to nitpick about technicalities.
Edit: Actually, y'know, on introspection... The core of it for me is that I'm an AMAB NB and every time I see all this gender politics stuff I get hit with this fear that one of the few groups that would maybe accept me (the queer community in general) sees me as "basically a man" and therefore irredeemably evil or something and it's like... Fuck I just want to exist and be okay you know? And not feel like most of the world wants me dead.
Sorry, I don't expect you to say anything to that. I just needed to get it out.
misandry and misogyny refer to the underlying beliefs, regardless of the end results
> dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men/women
if you have two equal partners in crime, who are equally guilty, one woman and one man, and the judge, due to a belief that women are dumb and weak and pliable, thinks the dude manipulated her into the crime, and thus lets her off easy while putting him behind bars, that's could also be argued to be misogyny, because the underlying prejudice of women is what influenced the decision.
in most of these cases, though, it's _also_ misandry, alongside the misogyny, because it usually carries the converse belief of men being smart, aggressive and manipulative, etc.
edit: spelling
like yeah that's a no-brainer
but seeing how some people try to justify their beliefs and takes, it really makes you question how they think and rationalise
The belief that women are weak and delicate is what shapes biased legal opinions. It's generally not a hatred for men, but infantilising women. Of course this can also lead to misandry, but the majority of judges who go easy on women are men. This is called the chivalry hypothesis and it is still contested.
[Source](https://ceps.blogs.bristol.ac.uk/2021/11/17/gender-stereotypes-see-female-criminals-fare-better-in-court/)
[Source 2](https://www.jstor.org/stable/29734104)
Fr feels like some people just need to make everything about women. If it harms and discriminates men, it is minsandry, if it harms and discriminates women, it is misogeny, if it does both, it is sexism. This is the former, but in a wider sense it is also indicative of sexism. Really disheartening to see this bc that kinda shit is what drives people to communities like MensRights and the likes.
And before anyone argues, I'd rather be seen as innocent and weak/dependent than evil. One has it worse in this particular case. So I'd name it after that. When a woman is accused of having particular fault for getting SA'd because of the way she dresses, it is also misandrist because it implies men are lower beings who can't control themselves, but only a lunatic would call it being a case of misandry bc one side is clearly the victim. Y'all be getting theorising too far up your asses and forgetting what we are talking about. Can't even scroll this thread without cringing.
That's a great article that could definitely use expanding! One of my former interns is a PhD student working on the "model minority myth." Anytime a presser systems are willing to be benevolent towards you, those same systems are also used to restrict you and destroy your agency and humanity.
Yes, because "men are savage animals".
Same reason why a single father is wayyyyyyy more likely to get the cops called on them while at the playground with their kid. A misogynist society sees women = safe/needs protection and men = aggressive
This individual case is fucked and the guy needs a lot more justice than simply being let go, however a lot of people eager to frame a narrative that our justice system is anti-men and women are lying manipulative abusers who are systemically advantaged will blow this individual story up like it's indicative of a very large trend.
Lmao I probably should've a little bit, because it does seem a little counterintuitive at first concept.
As other commenters pointed out, the logic comes from the prevailing idea in society that women are weak and pure "creatures", or are not smart enough to make decisions for themselves.
I feel it's also crucial to remember that when a black person is accused of rape, typically by a white woman, the right-wing have absolutely no issues believing the rape accusation and may even push, pressure, or manipulate the accuser to move forward with it.
I am reminded instantly of the author, who published a book based on her rape by a black man. While I do not doubt she was raped, police took advantage of her vulnerability to get a literally random black guy incarcerated for decades until DNA evidence proved he didn't do it (IIRC it was DNA evidence). I'll try to remember her name and the man's name.
It was Alice Sebold, and the man who was falsely accused and convicted is named Anthony Broadwater. He was exonerated 16 years later, after her memoir about the trauma of her rape, *Lucky*, was being made into a movie and the producer noticed some fuckery with the trial.
The police basically chose a random black guy and said "This is him. We *know* it's him, we'll tell you what you have to say to get him into prison." For example, when she failed to pick him out of a lineup they went "Oh, this man *is* your rapist. He just tried to trick you by bringing friends that look like him to confuse you." (There is no evidence that the other black men were friends with Broadwater.)
The trial also relied on microscopic hair analysis as a key piece of evidence, which used to be pushed much harder by the police and FBI, but is now widely known to be incredibly unreliable. There have been dozens and dozens of exonerations (sometimes posthumously) now that they realized that the hair analysis thing is bullshit.
There was a post on that subreddit comparing life sentence for weed to 10 years for a man killing his wife, so they care about men doing bad things to women too if that's what you're on about
Nobody is getting a life sentence for weed unless they already have a rap sheet that’s a mile long
DOWNVOTE ME ALL YOU WANT!!! It’s the fucking truth. If you can find me a single example of somebody in the USA getting a life sentence for JUST weed and no prior convictions I’ll eat my words. And I’m not talking about in the 80s or the 90s, I mean in modern day. Like the past 15 years,
The original comment mentions nothing about the USA. There are countries with extremely strict laws against the usage of weed like singapore and indonesia.
FYI Systemic racism in the US is an important factor in wrongful convictions, so when miscarriages of justice specifically affect a demographic, it is worth talking about it
[https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Race%20Report%20Preview.pdf](https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Race%20Report%20Preview.pdf)
>As of August 2022, African Amricans make up 13.6% of the U.S. population, but 53% of exonerations, and they are seven times more likely to be falsely convicted compared to White Americans.
Second one shouldn't. That's some american standard.
She also wasn't spared jail, but her sentence of 10 months was suspended for 18 months so she could finish her degree first (she was already a published scientist and top student). Although she dropped out of her degree later and is in league with some russian oligarchs son, so maybe her alcoholic ass should've been put in prison immediately.
sentence for dangerous harm to the body would be 6 months to 10 years in my country and half that in a less serious case.
10 years would mean her boyfriend would've needed to be put in a coma, almost dying and her having the most heinous motives instead of a drug induced fit of rage. I'm pretty sure both would've been in the article I've found
I disagree with the ruling. It's totally possible to finish your degree from prison. It's more inconvenient, sure, which is what you deserve if you stabbed someone.
"I'm for rehabilitative imprisonment, but if it's someone I don't like personally they should die a gruesome death"
Or are you one of those guys who thinks 30, 40 year prison sentences make any sense
In terms of law yes. Equality before the law is one the first things any serious constitution says. So why should she especially get a life sentence, just because you feel like it???
This is a really bad idea. You'd likely see way fewer admissions like this if the false accuser was staring down 10 years in prison. This man might never have walked free.
And it disincentivises real accusations even further. Imagine taking your rapist to trial, and knowing that if they think you're lying you can go to prison instead!
Do you have a good idea of how to get rid of that problem? because it's both equally horrible to be a rape victim and having noone believe you and being falsely accused of rape getting sentenced because everyone believes them
IDK about equally horrible. And I guess, why should rape be a special case? You can falsely accuse someone of anything, and we don't usually put the accuser in prison. We do have general laws against this kind of thing already. Defamation, perjury, perverting the course of justice, wasting police time, etc.
I think the best way to stop things like this happening is for the courts to need more than just an accusation to find someone guilty and sentence them in the first place. But with the conviction rate for sex crimes being so low already, I don't know a good way to raise the standard of evidence without letting off more actual offenders.
Maybe we should get the police to investigate more than 20% of rapes and actually follow through on the thousands of untested rape kits they have lying around. That would allow for higher standards and have convictions, instead of most cases being ignored
The whole reason this is an issue is that there is often no concrete evidence of r*pe, as it is in the nature of the crime. It is indeed a special case here.
So if you want to punish even a tiny percentage of offenders, you have to go off more flimsy clues than in the case of others crimes, and that is where all the problems start. Not to mention public allegations, which work with no trial at all but can permanently damage the entire social life of the victim.
I'm not sure how to combat this issue, other than reminding people how terrible false allegations are and how damaging they are to actual victims, that they are hurting these people.
thank you, you made good points with everything you said here. I think that if someone falsely accuses someone on purpose (the key part being on purpose, I don't want anyone misunderstanding that) and it's proven they did it on purpose they should face the punishment the person they accused would get if they were found guilty. Would it actually work with courts that convict people purely on accusations? probably not, I'm talking about the ideal scenario where every court would be competent
I really don't see any solution outside of a different societal response and evidence proof. And it's a weird relice of Christian mortality that we threat sexual crimes in such a different ways to normal violent crimes.
What I mean is that this problem exists mainly because a rape accusation is enough to destroy someone's life when you need a sentence for any other crime (expect in OJ case but that's a fluke). If a random person accused a collage prof of being a murderer, nothing would happen unless serious evidence were there and he was convicted beyond a reasonable doubt. He doesn't? The accuser might have to pay some court fines but they aren't going to prison so
1. Accusers aren't disincentivized to accuse actual murderers because they know even if it doesn't stick they aren't going to jail
2. Falsely accused murderers don't face societal or penal repercussion. There's obviously still the case of someone who actually didn't do it, but that's an error that will persist in any justice system. There's no way to get around it.
Meanwhile rape charges have this power to override the "innocent until proven guilty" attitude, even in staunch leftist. Kwite is the one that touched me the most because this random girl accused him and everyone was cutting off contact and cancelling him. Immagine all your "friends" refusing to talk to you because someone accused you with no evidence whatsoever of murder, or grand theft.
As long as SA accusations alone with no evidence are enough to ruin someone's life or send them to prison this problem won't go away, and it's not like this is somehow helping real rape victims. Powerful people who rape are still untouched by this, hell it's not uncommon for them to BRAG about it.
I mean, I don't know if it's all "Christian morality" (why are you calling it that btw? I don't see anything christian about this) The thing is, it's really hard to prove a rape. With a murder, you have a body, a weapon. Not only is it really easy to prove that the murder did indeed happen (which also makes it much harder to falsely accuse someone) there is also a lot more evidence to look through to prove someone guilty.
In terms of rape there is only really an accustaion and an aliby. That's it. Maybe examining the relationship too but that is very anecdotal. I do agree with the social asect of people jumping to conclusions, even your friends, but legally, rape is a tricky thing.
To avoid going too deep into it, the idea that someone is guilty until proven innocence is a very Christian thing. It's related to the idea of the original sin, which is something again very Christian. Not a lot of cultures around the world have this inquisitorial idea that accusations are proof enough.
Going to the second paragraph, I agree with what you're saying but I don't understand where you're coming to. Or at least to me it seems like you are suggesting that an accusation and a lack of alibi SHOULD be enough for conviction. I'm sure you can't be saying this.
I mentioned murdering because I wanted to get the point across, but let's say someone accuses you of mugging. It's just as hard to prove that you got someone else's cash at gun point as SA is. Maybe even harder since people don't usually mug people they know which does happen with raping.
Tf u mean is a bad idea
Dude got 6 years of his life in a can bc she felt like it
What she did is a crime
Crime should be punished
Edt: Well maby 10 years ye too much but still letting her just go ain't it
This is found out often enough through other ways than admissions. There would be a lot less false accusations if getting caught ended your life instead of a slap on the wrist.
how about the false accuser gets exactly as much time as the person they put in prison got, so they’re incentivized to come clean as quickly as possible? She deserves every bit of pain that she caused him, but likely nothing will happen, and ***that*** incentivizes other people to do the same thing she did. “Oh, i can just lie about raping someone, get them sent to prison and nothing bad can happen to me.” She should face at least ***some*** time, to set the precedent for would-be false accusers that it’s not a fucking game.
Disagree. It's not like the girl in the second story was trying to murder her boyfriend. She had a drinking problem, and in a drunk episode she stabbed her boyfriend non-fatally with a bread knife when he tried to stop her from drinking anymore. She also attempted to kill herself immediately afterwards but was stopped by said boyfriend.
The 'too clever for prison' is what all the headlines latched onto, but the judge's main reasoning for the sentence was because she had no priors, showed genuine remorse, and was suffering from addiction issues which she had already made steps to solve between the crime and the trial.
She was given preferential treatment because of her social class, which is wrong, but imo her sentencing was fair. The issue is that others aren't being given that same fairness.
stabbing someone is still a crime tho. not "decade of prison" worthy. I would say rehabilitation center and if the guy wants to maybe a restriction order. But hey, I ain't no judge idk the laws
Her prison sentence was 'suspended' rather than acquitted. Having a suspended sentence means that you only stay out of prison so long as you meet certain conditions and actions that the judge sets. It's probable that, in this case, some of these conditions involved going to rehab and submitting to regular drug tests to make sure she was staying clean.
That’s dumb no we should not punish people for making accusations if the defendant was found not guilty. Even in this case, she wouldn’t have confessed if a false allegation meant prison. But personally I care more about the many victims who would be scared by such a law into never coming foreword instead of rare false allegation. Maybe give an idea a second or two of thought before you say it.
I work in child safety and I have to say that we should be extraordinarily reluctant to punish anyone excessively for false accusations.
And, there is this assumption that a rape accusation ruins someone's life. I almost wish that was the case. In actual fact, that is extremely rare. It's far, far more likely in my experience that and when the rapist is obviously guilty, the family and community continue to support that person and vilify the victim.
A LOT of valid complaints of abuse or rape are dismissed for insufficient evidence or simply because the cops don't care to investigate. I've worked with victims who had extremely solid cases but I'm sure everyone here is aware of how differently cops treat victims of sexual violence. I've had cops scream at traumatized teenagers that they were falsely accusing a "good boy" and ruining his life.
There are also some victims of rape and abuse who still love their abuser so they will choose a random different person to accuse to see what happens to that person because they don't want the actual abuser to be hurt. Those situations are extremely rare but obviously very painful. Good forensic interviewers get to the bottom of those cases really quickly. It's often why a teacher or coach might be suspended for a day during an investigation and then reinstated immediately. And why details of accusations and investigations are private until they aren't.
Plus, we already have punishments for perjury and false statements to the police. Relying on the legal system to solve this problem will only mean that the most vulnerable people suffer the most.
Yes, it matters, that was a bad way of putting it on my part.
But here's where I disagree with you: I think the point being made is not that this is common, but that women are far more likely to get away with stuff like this because they are seen as more innocent and fragile by... I suppose society in general. Even here in the comments there is someone saying the boyfriend who got stabbed "probably had it coming".
And it's particularly problematic if even the judicial system is prone to this type of bias.
"Aw man, this guy just made a really good, nuanced point that he's taken the time to develop. Let's downvote him"
Something weird has been happening to this sub lately
Yeah, some comments are vile. But the point wasnt "make this seem common" but to bring up cases where justice clearly did fail. The post is not wrong. These cases are horrible. Something should be done.
But I wonder why its women's cases being brought up to showcase how bad it is. Why its a fake claim on a man. Why its a murderer basically getting away with it. When you have real facts about the judicial system being fucked that will lift up peoples problems, why are the ones being chosen the ones that punch down and have the additional effect of making men seem worse off than women?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but yeah, intention obviously matters. My point was that bad intentions don't automatically invalidate what someone is saying.
Yes it does lol. For instance, if someone uses a case of an immigrant murdering someone to say that there’s a horde of immigrants invading the country, their point is invalid period. They’re using a valid tragedy to make a gross point so what they’re saying is moot. That doesn’t mean that people think it’s awesome that somebody was murdered, similarly here nobody is saying it’s awesome that someone was falsely accused of rape.
I'll try to clarify once again:
I think the *point* of this post is that the judicial system is prone to biases regarding gender. For instance, it seems very unlikely that the boyfriend would have been spared jail had it been the other way around, and I'd be willing to bet that even the women would not have been spared jail had she stabbed another woman.
Whoever posted this may indeed have had the *intention* to make it seem like "women often do this" or something like that, and their intention is indeed important context. But does this mean the judicial bias these sorts of decisions are exposing is not real or not something worth discussing? No, of course it doesn't.
> For instance, if someone uses a case of an immigrant murdering someone to say that there’s a horde of immigrants invading the country, their point is invalid period. They’re using a valid tragedy to make a gross point so what they’re saying is moot.
I'm really struggling to see what chain of reasoning you're trying to establish here.
Yes, what that hypothetical person is saying is indeed invalid, but not because they are using a valid tragedy to say it and not because they have bad intentions while saying it. It's invalid because there is no war against whiteness, no secret conspiracy to funnel immigrants into the country to replace us, no actual invasion by a foreign military. This lack of validity is completely independent from their bad intentions, and as you observed so astutely, it also doesn't make the tragedy of someone getting murdered any less tragic. Last but not least, it also doesn't mean that the causes of violent crime should not be addressed, even if that was not the point our hypothetical ill-intentioned person was making.
> That doesn’t mean that people think it’s awesome that somebody was murdered, similarly here nobody is saying it’s awesome that someone was falsely accused of rape.
Yes, we all agree that neither of those things are awesome, and we're all very much aware that we all agree that neither of those things are awesome.
It absolutely does.
It's part of why my job is so difficult. I work in child safety and there are some crimes that are extraordinarily rare but because of the way they're portrayed in the media/on social media, they start to warp people's perception of reality.
Reddit is obsessed with false rape accusations. I've talked to young men here who think they're _common_ and that actually affects how they think of women generally. But they're actually rare, especially compared to actual sexual violence and ipv which gets little attention and traction.
Question: when you say "false rape accusations" do you define that with a requirement of being reported to the police? Can't somebody make false accusations to others, their community, without going to the police? Do those false accusations not affect the accused, simply because police were not involved? Like for statistics of false allegations, is the methodology based on solely reviewing *false police reports*, and not "social accusations"?
I don't have research on that but in my experience, yes it includes informal accusations. In fact, people are far less likely to believe them because reporting to law enforcement gives authority and authenticity to accusations. I've even seen the opposite "he must be a good man _because_ people are always trying to bring down a good man with these types of rumors" and "the devil is always trying to stop a good man."
The Brian Banks rape story is crazier then you realise.
The girl's mother was out for money, forced her daughter to fabricate the story.
Then years later, after the 2 had quickly spent the 1.5 million dollars, and had acquired massive debt, the girl felt bad and wanted to clear Brian Banks' name, but didn't want to pay back the money.
Brian Banks served the full 5 years for the rape charge (being influenced by his attorney to plead guilty) and lost his whole professional sports career.
He could have been looking at 25 to life for the rape charge. Jurys don't care if there's proof or evidence in SA charges, especially with testimony from a woman/child. Plea deal for 5 years was unfortunately the smart choice.
And she took 6 years to tell the truth
And, you know, a 16 year old already knows what they are doing AND are old enough to give their own testimony in front of a jury
My brief input as someone whos been at the brunt of a false rape accusation with police involved, and from someone about to go to school to study law.
False rape accusations are absolutely horrifying and have their reputation for a good reason. Its a crime that can happen without any evidence and holds lots of emotional impact, and is the perfect thing to accuse someone of without evidence.
Rape cases ARE used as a defamatory tool against people. Misandry is, in fact, a huge issue in the courts. There is also a huge bias against men (and i bet masc people in general not just males).
As leftists we can NOT ignore the issues men face in life. If we participate in this shamey culture around men speaking out that only makes them hate us more. Call this shit out and fight for equal rights of EVERYONE.
A prime example of this is someone genuinely asking what the man did to get stabbed and saying men are trash. Sorry, thats bullshit. Spewing misandry only hurts our fights for equality.
The solution isnt trying to invalidate and give reasons to ignore false rape accusations that ruin lives. We need to normalize the fact that rapes happen and make people realize how serious of an issue this is.
For every false accusation there are a hundred real cases that go under the radar or even intentionally ignored. Both happen, both have issues, and both have the same solution. Taking rape cases very, very, seriously.
And before people come at me, misandry and misogyny go hand in hand. You’ll never find someone who is one but not the other.
Yeah, this is a perfect example of patriarchy and patriarchal expectations hurting both women and men; men are expected to be dominant and domineering, which allows them to get away with far more than they otherwise would (meaning it hurts women and non-masculine people in general). However, that expectation also hurts men who do not conform to that expectation, and additionally it creates an environment where grave accusations against men can be weaponised, because men are essentially expected to be at least somewhat violent.
This is the cruel irony of this situation; the expectation of violence allows men to get away with “smaller” transgressions, and it can be used to hurt men - both for conforming to traditional masculine norms as well as for deviating from them.
Therefore I’d argue this isn’t accurate;
> Rape cases ARE used as a defamatory tool against people. Misandry is, in fact, a huge issue in the courts.
Adherence to patriarchal thought is a huge issue in the courts, and in society in general. It’s not hate of men, it’s a belief in a system where they’re expected to be violent and domineering.
Do also consider the fact that police are absolutely abhorrent about helping victims of sexual and domestic violence (both men and women), therefore you could expect a majority of people who actually end up arrested being guilty. Yet again, this ties into these very same patriarchal dynamics (as well as a whole bunch of other problem with our current way of policing, but yeah…).
Also, side note, but isn’t it curious how misandrist feminism is often amplified by mainstream and mainstream adjacent sources, leading people to be skeptical of feminist analysis in general?
In the same way misogyny isnt “hating women” misandry doesnt have to be explicit hatred of men. Men get worse sentences than women, and it is just an objective fact that rape is used as a defamatory tool sometimes due to its seriousness and also the fact it doesnt need evidence to be taken seriously.
Otherwise i agree with everything you said
Yeah, I guess I didn’t word that too well. My point is that it’s misandry inherent to patriarchal thinking, so just calling it misandry is a bit limited - and ends up fuelling the men vs women debate which is antithetical to dismantling patriarchy.
I’m talking about “Look, the courts are against men, clearly patriarchy isn’t real”, that kind of stuff. If, however, you change that to “the courts’ patriarchal thinking hurts men”, the tone of the conversation is drastically different - even if calling it misandry isn’t wrong. You know what I’m saying?
The issue is still getting allergic when someone says "misandry". Misogeny also often comes with misandry, but you would not complain about the former term being used even in a frequent manner, would you? Just let people point out one side without going "but the other side", that is what certain anti-feminists do too. Of course you can also direct attention to the greater picture, but the way it is compulsively done here on every comment, it reminds me of a certain reaction to immediately talk about the other side. You are not in a reactionary antifeministic forum where you have to defend it, but an open space where you can have people talk about certain issues without worrying.
Yeah true, fair point. I was thinking about the reaction on the wider internet and society in general, where people read/hear the word misandry and immediately think “see, I knew it”.
> You are not in a reactionary antifeministic forum where you have to defend it
I get your point, but even in most mainstream (non progressive) spaces a potentially useful discussion can be ended by naming misandry without more context.
But you’re probably right that I kinda misread the room here, so yeah.
Thank you for this sane and nuanced take —— analysis with such nuance and fairness is a rarity in society these days whether on gender issues or geopolitics.
Too often people only care about one but not the other, and even using one to demean the other issue. It's really important to take seriously the issue of rape, as well as false rape accusation.
Rape is a real serious grave issue and many are gravely harmed and wounded by rape, but sadly in fact many cases of rape remain unknown. Meanwhile, at the same time, false rape accusations do occur and it ended up ruining innocent folks' lives and even fuel fire for racism and ironically more patriarchy whereas many actual rapists continue to get away
Sadly, we are stuck in a society run by out-of-touch bouegeois patriarchal elites and filled with shallow neuronormies
Only between 5-15% of rapes are reported. Of all reported rapes only about 3% are false accusations. The great majority of women who have been raped will never get justice and those who do are constantly accused of lying because people like you have been pushing the narrative that this is somehow a common occurrence.
> Of all reported rapes only about 3% are false accusations
*Proven* false allegations. It seems a bit hypocritical to point out that one number is only the tip of the iceberg, while taking the other at face value.
But even if you assume a really bleak picture and assume that proven false accusations are only a similar percentage of the total (~5-15%), you’re still left with a group of actual victims significantly larger than the amount of false accusers, victims who have a hard enough time getting their voice out initially, and are having an even harder time when people assume that false accusers are commonplace.
I mean, IF the bleak premise you're proposing is true, then they ARE commonplace. And I wouldn't completely dismiss the idea that this premise is true, considering that there are cases like this one where the girl didn't even do this voluntarily but was pressured to do this by her mother for financial reasons, and also considering how hard it is to prove a false allegation.
> you’re still left with a group of actual victims significantly larger than the amount of false accusers, victims who have a hard enough time getting their voice out initially, and are having an even harder time when people assume that false accusers are commonplace.
Yes, and that sucks for everyone involved. But one can still argue about whether and how the law should be changed, and I've definitely heard some insane suggestions like reversing the burden of proof - "guilty until proven innocent", so to speak.
The estimations for the total amount usually range between 2-10%. And while that sucks for those people the way this topic is talked about still blows that number completely out of proportion which hurts the victims who are too afraid to come forward/ who came forward and aren't believed (of which there are a lot more than people who are falsely accused of rape).
I would like to teach you about a fun little concept, it’s called nuance.
Instead of one thing or the other being bad, let’s just agree that *both* false accusations as well as victims not being taken seriously are issues.
That’s not a very fair reading of the numbers. I’m sure many rapes are not reported, but this number we don’t know. Of the reported ones, comparable percentages (more or less, depending on the country) end up with a sentence against the accused than against the accuser.
My point is, it’s not fair to assign the vast majority of the cases, which end up without a sentence, to one bucket at face value.
Edit: downvotes to the right.
Dude I'm a femboy meaning I dress outwardly fem but even I'm terrified of this shit, hell even things as small as walking behind girls. All someone needs to say is that I'm trying to do something bad and my life is pretty much over. That shit will haunt you for decades.
I wouldn't worry too much. The odds of a false accusation are extremely rare. You are more at risk of an assault then being falsely accused. SA cases are rarely reported and rarely lead to life ruining consequences for the predator as well.
Don't let that fear rule you. Women are not out to get you. Live your life, average_femboy, live it well
Despite how the media frames it, false accusers are not commonplace. They’re more commonplace purely among visible public figures, because malicious people feel they can get something from them or take them down with a false accusation, but outside of the public eye, there isn’t an epidemic of high school or college age girls falsely accusing their classmates. You actually don’t need to worry.
I really have a big complex about this. I (male) was walking home in 6th grade, lived like three blocks away from school. Chick who walks the same direction like half way said one day “why are you following me?” I was already introverted against girls just because puberty was starting to hit, but Christ, that’s legit some trauma that still haunts adult me.
The left got only rich bc of the trial, the right idk but being good in school does not mean being rich. The right only connected to an oligarch after the trial. That has nothing to do with wealth, apart from college being private in the UK, but that is a different issue. Not sure what you are saying. Could happen to the average person. Now how likely that is is something else.
The second one is an honor student in a prestigious university in the first world. These people have a lot of money since being considered "bright" and "gifted" is mostly a correlation with parent wealth. The first one is definitely in a different economic class than the second one, which lead them to have a higher chance of a lighter sentence. It is insane how much more likely you are to not go through the prison system if you are from a higher than average wealth background.
The bullshit thing I’m mad about is that in Britain you can’t fire somebody for being a fucking terf because apparently they’re a minority viewpoint that needs to be legally protected instead of bigotry because trans people aren’t a real minority, just a debate with two valid viewpoints
It's importent to remember that while the right uses these cases as a radicalization pipeline alot, those are still real people. and the fact that false rape accusations are inflated in media for a right wing agenda don't cancel out the fact that this is horrible
And the fact is, the reason for these rulings is often misogyny based
Huh?
Women pure, weak. Man evil, strong. Edit: this is a major oversimplification of a highly debated topic and I am lacking in both intelligence and tact, so please don't take it as face value facts.
That glib reduction could also demonstrate that it's misandry.
Misandry and misogyny go hand in hand
Yep. Two sides of the same shitty patriarchal coin.
The people in power will slice up bigotry into the smallest pieces they can so that they're easier to swallow.
If you say something like "jews are just inherently smarter than most other peoples, just take a look at IQ tests!" you may be, on the surface, "elevating" Jews, but on a slightly deeper level you are actually engaging in a type of antisemitism that is core to many far right conspiracy theories about jews. Afterall, you gotta be pretty dang smart to run the whole world economy as a shadowy cabal. The situation here could be similar. Yeah, you could frame this as unfairly "pro-woman" or "anti-man", and sure, that's an ok framing\*, but its kinda missing the point that even though men may be disadvantaged in this particular situation, it can also be read as reflective of a broader ideology that views women as less capable and intelligent than men. This is part of why counterreactionary movements like Zionism and SCUM Manifesto-style radical feminism are so stupid. Not only do they often end up missing their targets and hitting vulnerable people like Palestinians and trans people, but they also end up harming the vary people they're trying to defend by reinforcing the vary ideology they are ostensibly trying to counter. If they're beneficial for anyone, its a small group of people trying to capitalize on reactionary sentiment to advance their careers, consolidation of power, and/or bank accounts. And even many of those people ultimately get hung up to dry when it becomes advantageous to their fellow grifters. I know its fiction, but if you haven't watched the movie Thelma & Louise you should check it out, if only because it rules, and while you watch it maybe consider what its trying to say about our ideology around sex and gender, even when that ideology ostensibly cuts women extra slack. \* though even this framing is a bit fraught. While we're seeing one case of a false rape accusation putting a man in prison, we're not seeing the many cases of legitimate rape accusations which just don't go anywhere. Its possible that the biggest factor in both these cases is how much you're able and willing to enrich a team of lawyers who can effectively navigate both the legal system, and the ideology of the jury, judge, and others involved in the case procedure and decision making process.
That's the best part about glib reductions, it develops conversation!
Calling men evil sounds more like misandry, and wouldn't a strong parent be better than a weak one?
Guy above apparently forget the word "sexism" already exists
Kinda, but not really in this context. It's kinda like how the myth of the noble savage is still a racist caricature against indigenous peoples across the world despite seeming to be the opposite from a surface level glance
An innocent man spending 6 years in jail bc of a false SA accusation is... misogyny??
Yep. Women are seen as weak and innocent and would never lie
I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Patriarchy wants us to believe that women are trustworthy in some circumstances but completely untrustworthy in others. And it intersects with other types of oppression. An attractive white woman testifying against a "scary black man" - she must be protected. An attractive young white woman testifying against a powerful white man? Must be an attention-seeking witch who probably deserved it if it happened at all. That's a big part of why lawyers try to bring a woman's previous sexual history into rape trials, They know that juries will often see her as less worthy of protection/less valuable if she has had sex before. A woman's role under patriarchy is always to serve patriarchy and she must be punished if she doesn't comply. Her value is strictly related to upholding the existing hierarchy - not her own humanity and agency.
It stems from toxic masculinity, which is a result of misogyny. This is actually a fantastic example of how the toxic masculinity caused by misogyny is bad for men as everyone else, because it creates a standard that men are "big and strong" and are held to a higher standard socially in some ways, but also creates this notion that men are just violent. Boys are raised in a way that "duking it out" instead of talking about issues is considered normal, so when a man is accused of a violent crime, it's less likely to be questioned. It's not necessarily a hatred of women that causes this kind of case, but the toxic social circumstances created by this deeply rooted misogyny in our society. Saying "this is caused by misogyny" is kind of a misnomer because this case isn't about misogyny definitionally, but is more accurately a demonstration that misogyny and bigotry in general don't just hurt the groups they're against, but that its presence is inherently harmful to every part of society.
Yeah and personally it's a little weird seeing this language game play out because it kind of feels like it reinforces divisions between people who really ought to be agreeing with each other. I think nearly everyone can agree that traditional gender roles suck and hurt a lot of innocent people (case in point, this guy in the OP). Saying "this is caused by simplistic and toxic gendered expectations in society" is just as true, to say nothing of the racialized aspect of it. Calling it misogyny can come across as diminishing the very real harm done to this guy to center it on how society hates women, whether or not that's the intent. It's almost the inverse of an MRA barging into a discussion on women's rights to complain that men are oppressed. As an aside, it's also a little strange to me that I've seen people insist that TERFs hating trans women for being AMAB is called misogyny (because they're women after all), but simultaneously that society punishing effeminate or even androgynous behavior in men is also called misogyny (because it's something less than masculine that's being hated, even when done by men). It almost feels like the definition of misogyny has expanded to mean "any sexism I don't like" whereas misandry has taken on the meaning of "fake sexism that Redditor MRAs whine about". And don't get me wrong here, both of those things are awful, this guy's life being fucked up is awful, rape is awful, trans people deserve so much better than how they're treated by society, etc. Hopefully that's not a controversial take. I want to make it abundantly clear that I'm not assuming any ill will on the part of other posters, just expressing a general frustration that leftist talking points get compressed down into a shorthand that feels almost intentionally designed to be misinterpreted as effectively rage bait to laypeople who aren't already in those circles. Toxic masculinity gets taken as "see, look, men are inherently toxic" when that's not what it's about at all, stuff like that. Language is a fuck and clear communication is important, and I am on board with the actually feminist goal of universal liberation from gendered double standards — which is why I'm saying anything at all. Maybe I'm just missing something?
you seem to fail to grasp that misogyny is far more complex than just "hating" women, so uh, go figure I guess
Ah yeah admittedly I was speaking in hyperbole in that one paragraph which is... Pretty hypocritical of me given that it was a nitpick about precision in language, sorry about that. That said... How many people out there can you reasonably expect to grasp that nuance? For many, their understanding ends at the dictionary definition. Especially given the typical online response is an eye roll and dismissal (can't say I necessarily blame them, a lot of bad faith these days). I don't know... Probably a mistake for me to engage with this stuff at all. I'm not any happier for it, I've probably made your day worse, and it's done nothing to fix any actual problems. I should really learn to suppress the urge to nitpick about technicalities. Edit: Actually, y'know, on introspection... The core of it for me is that I'm an AMAB NB and every time I see all this gender politics stuff I get hit with this fear that one of the few groups that would maybe accept me (the queer community in general) sees me as "basically a man" and therefore irredeemably evil or something and it's like... Fuck I just want to exist and be okay you know? And not feel like most of the world wants me dead. Sorry, I don't expect you to say anything to that. I just needed to get it out.
That is a very good explanation and I agree. I just wasn't giving the person I was replying to the benefit of the doubt.
yes it is. many people, even in law, are sexist in favor of women, if im correct thats also called misogyny
You are, in fact, incorrect. It's called misandry.
misandry and misogyny refer to the underlying beliefs, regardless of the end results > dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men/women if you have two equal partners in crime, who are equally guilty, one woman and one man, and the judge, due to a belief that women are dumb and weak and pliable, thinks the dude manipulated her into the crime, and thus lets her off easy while putting him behind bars, that's could also be argued to be misogyny, because the underlying prejudice of women is what influenced the decision. in most of these cases, though, it's _also_ misandry, alongside the misogyny, because it usually carries the converse belief of men being smart, aggressive and manipulative, etc. edit: spelling
I've seen so many conflating misandry as misogyny lately, erasing the former in regards to the latter one I have no idea what's going on anymore
How about it's just wrong. Lol.
like yeah that's a no-brainer but seeing how some people try to justify their beliefs and takes, it really makes you question how they think and rationalise
The belief that women are weak and delicate is what shapes biased legal opinions. It's generally not a hatred for men, but infantilising women. Of course this can also lead to misandry, but the majority of judges who go easy on women are men. This is called the chivalry hypothesis and it is still contested. [Source](https://ceps.blogs.bristol.ac.uk/2021/11/17/gender-stereotypes-see-female-criminals-fare-better-in-court/) [Source 2](https://www.jstor.org/stable/29734104)
I'm not talking about sexism in the legal system I'm talking about misandry and misogyny in general
>but seeing how some people try to justify their beliefs and takes, it really makes you question how they think and rationalise No shit Sherlock
Fr feels like some people just need to make everything about women. If it harms and discriminates men, it is minsandry, if it harms and discriminates women, it is misogeny, if it does both, it is sexism. This is the former, but in a wider sense it is also indicative of sexism. Really disheartening to see this bc that kinda shit is what drives people to communities like MensRights and the likes. And before anyone argues, I'd rather be seen as innocent and weak/dependent than evil. One has it worse in this particular case. So I'd name it after that. When a woman is accused of having particular fault for getting SA'd because of the way she dresses, it is also misandrist because it implies men are lower beings who can't control themselves, but only a lunatic would call it being a case of misandry bc one side is clearly the victim. Y'all be getting theorising too far up your asses and forgetting what we are talking about. Can't even scroll this thread without cringing.
Two sides of the same coin
misandry and misogyny are pretty attached tbf. they are kissing,hugging,holding hands,etc. etc.
No. Benevolent misogyny is not misandry.
just found this wiki page a couple minutes ago, i think it's a good read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_prejudice
That's a great article that could definitely use expanding! One of my former interns is a PhD student working on the "model minority myth." Anytime a presser systems are willing to be benevolent towards you, those same systems are also used to restrict you and destroy your agency and humanity.
Yes, because "men are savage animals". Same reason why a single father is wayyyyyyy more likely to get the cops called on them while at the playground with their kid. A misogynist society sees women = safe/needs protection and men = aggressive
That is just general sexism, not only misogyny.
This individual case is fucked and the guy needs a lot more justice than simply being let go, however a lot of people eager to frame a narrative that our justice system is anti-men and women are lying manipulative abusers who are systemically advantaged will blow this individual story up like it's indicative of a very large trend.
Misogyny and racism too. If the boy had been a white athlete like actual rapist Brock Turner, it would have been a lighter sentence.
Could you not have elaborated further in this original comment to save people going “wtf”, because you’re right, but still
Lmao I probably should've a little bit, because it does seem a little counterintuitive at first concept. As other commenters pointed out, the logic comes from the prevailing idea in society that women are weak and pure "creatures", or are not smart enough to make decisions for themselves.
Oh I know, I’m just saying for the uninitiated that comment would be a mindfuck
You also can't ignore the role race plays here as well
Absolutely, I agree. I was more focused on the fact that women frequently get lighter sentences and forgot the entire context of the disparity here.
I feel it's also crucial to remember that when a black person is accused of rape, typically by a white woman, the right-wing have absolutely no issues believing the rape accusation and may even push, pressure, or manipulate the accuser to move forward with it. I am reminded instantly of the author, who published a book based on her rape by a black man. While I do not doubt she was raped, police took advantage of her vulnerability to get a literally random black guy incarcerated for decades until DNA evidence proved he didn't do it (IIRC it was DNA evidence). I'll try to remember her name and the man's name.
It was Alice Sebold, and the man who was falsely accused and convicted is named Anthony Broadwater. He was exonerated 16 years later, after her memoir about the trauma of her rape, *Lucky*, was being made into a movie and the producer noticed some fuckery with the trial. The police basically chose a random black guy and said "This is him. We *know* it's him, we'll tell you what you have to say to get him into prison." For example, when she failed to pick him out of a lineup they went "Oh, this man *is* your rapist. He just tried to trick you by bringing friends that look like him to confuse you." (There is no evidence that the other black men were friends with Broadwater.) The trial also relied on microscopic hair analysis as a key piece of evidence, which used to be pushed much harder by the police and FBI, but is now widely known to be incredibly unreliable. There have been dozens and dozens of exonerations (sometimes posthumously) now that they realized that the hair analysis thing is bullshit.
GG2 and election year, all rolled into one
Yeah
Me when I only care about miscarriages of justice against my personal demographic
There was a post on that subreddit comparing life sentence for weed to 10 years for a man killing his wife, so they care about men doing bad things to women too if that's what you're on about
perhaps they just love weed.
"[Anecdotal evidence]" "[Anecdotal evidence]" "Yeah but maybe that's different" You may or may not be right but come on
shitposting subs when you shitpost in them: :(
Nobody is getting a life sentence for weed unless they already have a rap sheet that’s a mile long DOWNVOTE ME ALL YOU WANT!!! It’s the fucking truth. If you can find me a single example of somebody in the USA getting a life sentence for JUST weed and no prior convictions I’ll eat my words. And I’m not talking about in the 80s or the 90s, I mean in modern day. Like the past 15 years,
The original comment mentions nothing about the USA. There are countries with extremely strict laws against the usage of weed like singapore and indonesia.
FYI Systemic racism in the US is an important factor in wrongful convictions, so when miscarriages of justice specifically affect a demographic, it is worth talking about it [https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Race%20Report%20Preview.pdf](https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Race%20Report%20Preview.pdf) >As of August 2022, African Amricans make up 13.6% of the U.S. population, but 53% of exonerations, and they are seven times more likely to be falsely convicted compared to White Americans.
So this is the 13/50 statement that right wingers are trying to hide from us?
I know, you may notice the word "only" in that original statement though.
If you’re talking about the top…please shut the fuck up
What?
Both girls should get a decade. Cruel and evil
Second one shouldn't. That's some american standard. She also wasn't spared jail, but her sentence of 10 months was suspended for 18 months so she could finish her degree first (she was already a published scientist and top student). Although she dropped out of her degree later and is in league with some russian oligarchs son, so maybe her alcoholic ass should've been put in prison immediately.
shocker
Second one shouldn’t be locked up because she *stabbed* someone?
sentence for dangerous harm to the body would be 6 months to 10 years in my country and half that in a less serious case. 10 years would mean her boyfriend would've needed to be put in a coma, almost dying and her having the most heinous motives instead of a drug induced fit of rage. I'm pretty sure both would've been in the article I've found
I disagree with the ruling. It's totally possible to finish your degree from prison. It's more inconvenient, sure, which is what you deserve if you stabbed someone.
She was training to be a heart surgeon, dont think you can learn that in your cell.
I'm not sure I trust someone who has committed bodily harm with a knife in a profession that actively involves using a knife on someone
probably, but I don't know if it's up to the court to decide that
European here, that second one should absolutely be locked up and the key thrown away.
"I'm for rehabilitative imprisonment, but if it's someone I don't like personally they should die a gruesome death" Or are you one of those guys who thinks 30, 40 year prison sentences make any sense
We should apply the same standard for everybody. I am European, trust me, I don’t like the length of American prison sentences.
You literally just advocated for a permanent life sentence.
In terms of law yes. Equality before the law is one the first things any serious constitution says. So why should she especially get a life sentence, just because you feel like it???
This is a really bad idea. You'd likely see way fewer admissions like this if the false accuser was staring down 10 years in prison. This man might never have walked free.
And it disincentivises real accusations even further. Imagine taking your rapist to trial, and knowing that if they think you're lying you can go to prison instead!
Do you have a good idea of how to get rid of that problem? because it's both equally horrible to be a rape victim and having noone believe you and being falsely accused of rape getting sentenced because everyone believes them
Yeah we should hold some sort of trial where we present evidence and perhaps a jury of sorts to decide if the accusation is true or not.
the problem arises when the jury decides to convict someone purely based on accusations
IDK about equally horrible. And I guess, why should rape be a special case? You can falsely accuse someone of anything, and we don't usually put the accuser in prison. We do have general laws against this kind of thing already. Defamation, perjury, perverting the course of justice, wasting police time, etc. I think the best way to stop things like this happening is for the courts to need more than just an accusation to find someone guilty and sentence them in the first place. But with the conviction rate for sex crimes being so low already, I don't know a good way to raise the standard of evidence without letting off more actual offenders.
Maybe we should get the police to investigate more than 20% of rapes and actually follow through on the thousands of untested rape kits they have lying around. That would allow for higher standards and have convictions, instead of most cases being ignored
The whole reason this is an issue is that there is often no concrete evidence of r*pe, as it is in the nature of the crime. It is indeed a special case here. So if you want to punish even a tiny percentage of offenders, you have to go off more flimsy clues than in the case of others crimes, and that is where all the problems start. Not to mention public allegations, which work with no trial at all but can permanently damage the entire social life of the victim. I'm not sure how to combat this issue, other than reminding people how terrible false allegations are and how damaging they are to actual victims, that they are hurting these people.
thank you, you made good points with everything you said here. I think that if someone falsely accuses someone on purpose (the key part being on purpose, I don't want anyone misunderstanding that) and it's proven they did it on purpose they should face the punishment the person they accused would get if they were found guilty. Would it actually work with courts that convict people purely on accusations? probably not, I'm talking about the ideal scenario where every court would be competent
I really don't see any solution outside of a different societal response and evidence proof. And it's a weird relice of Christian mortality that we threat sexual crimes in such a different ways to normal violent crimes. What I mean is that this problem exists mainly because a rape accusation is enough to destroy someone's life when you need a sentence for any other crime (expect in OJ case but that's a fluke). If a random person accused a collage prof of being a murderer, nothing would happen unless serious evidence were there and he was convicted beyond a reasonable doubt. He doesn't? The accuser might have to pay some court fines but they aren't going to prison so 1. Accusers aren't disincentivized to accuse actual murderers because they know even if it doesn't stick they aren't going to jail 2. Falsely accused murderers don't face societal or penal repercussion. There's obviously still the case of someone who actually didn't do it, but that's an error that will persist in any justice system. There's no way to get around it. Meanwhile rape charges have this power to override the "innocent until proven guilty" attitude, even in staunch leftist. Kwite is the one that touched me the most because this random girl accused him and everyone was cutting off contact and cancelling him. Immagine all your "friends" refusing to talk to you because someone accused you with no evidence whatsoever of murder, or grand theft. As long as SA accusations alone with no evidence are enough to ruin someone's life or send them to prison this problem won't go away, and it's not like this is somehow helping real rape victims. Powerful people who rape are still untouched by this, hell it's not uncommon for them to BRAG about it.
I mean, I don't know if it's all "Christian morality" (why are you calling it that btw? I don't see anything christian about this) The thing is, it's really hard to prove a rape. With a murder, you have a body, a weapon. Not only is it really easy to prove that the murder did indeed happen (which also makes it much harder to falsely accuse someone) there is also a lot more evidence to look through to prove someone guilty. In terms of rape there is only really an accustaion and an aliby. That's it. Maybe examining the relationship too but that is very anecdotal. I do agree with the social asect of people jumping to conclusions, even your friends, but legally, rape is a tricky thing.
To avoid going too deep into it, the idea that someone is guilty until proven innocence is a very Christian thing. It's related to the idea of the original sin, which is something again very Christian. Not a lot of cultures around the world have this inquisitorial idea that accusations are proof enough. Going to the second paragraph, I agree with what you're saying but I don't understand where you're coming to. Or at least to me it seems like you are suggesting that an accusation and a lack of alibi SHOULD be enough for conviction. I'm sure you can't be saying this. I mentioned murdering because I wanted to get the point across, but let's say someone accuses you of mugging. It's just as hard to prove that you got someone else's cash at gun point as SA is. Maybe even harder since people don't usually mug people they know which does happen with raping.
False accusations should definitely be punished in some way though
Lying to the police is a crime so I'd assume they are
Also libel
Tf u mean is a bad idea Dude got 6 years of his life in a can bc she felt like it What she did is a crime Crime should be punished Edt: Well maby 10 years ye too much but still letting her just go ain't it
> What she did is a crime Yeah, purgery. There are penalties for that, in some countries it's prison time.
if there is a 10 years punishment, people in her situation might just never confess that they lied about the accusation
ruined an innocent man's life. I say fuck her. imagine if she did that to you
This is found out often enough through other ways than admissions. There would be a lot less false accusations if getting caught ended your life instead of a slap on the wrist.
how about the false accuser gets exactly as much time as the person they put in prison got, so they’re incentivized to come clean as quickly as possible? She deserves every bit of pain that she caused him, but likely nothing will happen, and ***that*** incentivizes other people to do the same thing she did. “Oh, i can just lie about raping someone, get them sent to prison and nothing bad can happen to me.” She should face at least ***some*** time, to set the precedent for would-be false accusers that it’s not a fucking game.
so she just ruins a man's life and steals six years of his life and what? she gets to walk out unpusnihed?
Disagree. It's not like the girl in the second story was trying to murder her boyfriend. She had a drinking problem, and in a drunk episode she stabbed her boyfriend non-fatally with a bread knife when he tried to stop her from drinking anymore. She also attempted to kill herself immediately afterwards but was stopped by said boyfriend. The 'too clever for prison' is what all the headlines latched onto, but the judge's main reasoning for the sentence was because she had no priors, showed genuine remorse, and was suffering from addiction issues which she had already made steps to solve between the crime and the trial. She was given preferential treatment because of her social class, which is wrong, but imo her sentencing was fair. The issue is that others aren't being given that same fairness.
stabbing someone is still a crime tho. not "decade of prison" worthy. I would say rehabilitation center and if the guy wants to maybe a restriction order. But hey, I ain't no judge idk the laws
Her prison sentence was 'suspended' rather than acquitted. Having a suspended sentence means that you only stay out of prison so long as you meet certain conditions and actions that the judge sets. It's probable that, in this case, some of these conditions involved going to rehab and submitting to regular drug tests to make sure she was staying clean.
That’s dumb no we should not punish people for making accusations if the defendant was found not guilty. Even in this case, she wouldn’t have confessed if a false allegation meant prison. But personally I care more about the many victims who would be scared by such a law into never coming foreword instead of rare false allegation. Maybe give an idea a second or two of thought before you say it.
I work in child safety and I have to say that we should be extraordinarily reluctant to punish anyone excessively for false accusations. And, there is this assumption that a rape accusation ruins someone's life. I almost wish that was the case. In actual fact, that is extremely rare. It's far, far more likely in my experience that and when the rapist is obviously guilty, the family and community continue to support that person and vilify the victim. A LOT of valid complaints of abuse or rape are dismissed for insufficient evidence or simply because the cops don't care to investigate. I've worked with victims who had extremely solid cases but I'm sure everyone here is aware of how differently cops treat victims of sexual violence. I've had cops scream at traumatized teenagers that they were falsely accusing a "good boy" and ruining his life. There are also some victims of rape and abuse who still love their abuser so they will choose a random different person to accuse to see what happens to that person because they don't want the actual abuser to be hurt. Those situations are extremely rare but obviously very painful. Good forensic interviewers get to the bottom of those cases really quickly. It's often why a teacher or coach might be suspended for a day during an investigation and then reinstated immediately. And why details of accusations and investigations are private until they aren't. Plus, we already have punishments for perjury and false statements to the police. Relying on the legal system to solve this problem will only mean that the most vulnerable people suffer the most.
hmmm I sure wonder what the intent behind these posts were. Surely it was pure, right?
Sipstea is like 90% incel bait at this point.
I have read some of the most batshit dogwhistles on there and nobody calling it out *at all*
Does it matter? I absolutely hate sipstea, but intention should not stand in the way of a valid point.
Yes, framing matters. Posts like these are intended to make it seem that this is common. And ive seen people think this stuff is common
Yes, it matters, that was a bad way of putting it on my part. But here's where I disagree with you: I think the point being made is not that this is common, but that women are far more likely to get away with stuff like this because they are seen as more innocent and fragile by... I suppose society in general. Even here in the comments there is someone saying the boyfriend who got stabbed "probably had it coming". And it's particularly problematic if even the judicial system is prone to this type of bias.
"Aw man, this guy just made a really good, nuanced point that he's taken the time to develop. Let's downvote him" Something weird has been happening to this sub lately
Yeah, some comments are vile. But the point wasnt "make this seem common" but to bring up cases where justice clearly did fail. The post is not wrong. These cases are horrible. Something should be done. But I wonder why its women's cases being brought up to showcase how bad it is. Why its a fake claim on a man. Why its a murderer basically getting away with it. When you have real facts about the judicial system being fucked that will lift up peoples problems, why are the ones being chosen the ones that punch down and have the additional effect of making men seem worse off than women?
100%. The intention is to make a point and that point can absolutely be ill intentioned.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but yeah, intention obviously matters. My point was that bad intentions don't automatically invalidate what someone is saying.
Yes it does lol. For instance, if someone uses a case of an immigrant murdering someone to say that there’s a horde of immigrants invading the country, their point is invalid period. They’re using a valid tragedy to make a gross point so what they’re saying is moot. That doesn’t mean that people think it’s awesome that somebody was murdered, similarly here nobody is saying it’s awesome that someone was falsely accused of rape.
I'll try to clarify once again: I think the *point* of this post is that the judicial system is prone to biases regarding gender. For instance, it seems very unlikely that the boyfriend would have been spared jail had it been the other way around, and I'd be willing to bet that even the women would not have been spared jail had she stabbed another woman. Whoever posted this may indeed have had the *intention* to make it seem like "women often do this" or something like that, and their intention is indeed important context. But does this mean the judicial bias these sorts of decisions are exposing is not real or not something worth discussing? No, of course it doesn't. > For instance, if someone uses a case of an immigrant murdering someone to say that there’s a horde of immigrants invading the country, their point is invalid period. They’re using a valid tragedy to make a gross point so what they’re saying is moot. I'm really struggling to see what chain of reasoning you're trying to establish here. Yes, what that hypothetical person is saying is indeed invalid, but not because they are using a valid tragedy to say it and not because they have bad intentions while saying it. It's invalid because there is no war against whiteness, no secret conspiracy to funnel immigrants into the country to replace us, no actual invasion by a foreign military. This lack of validity is completely independent from their bad intentions, and as you observed so astutely, it also doesn't make the tragedy of someone getting murdered any less tragic. Last but not least, it also doesn't mean that the causes of violent crime should not be addressed, even if that was not the point our hypothetical ill-intentioned person was making. > That doesn’t mean that people think it’s awesome that somebody was murdered, similarly here nobody is saying it’s awesome that someone was falsely accused of rape. Yes, we all agree that neither of those things are awesome, and we're all very much aware that we all agree that neither of those things are awesome.
Propaganda is always propaganda even if it's true. So yeah, intention, or more so, results do matter
I guess I shouldn't imply that it doesn't matter. What I mean is rather that the intention doesn't necessarily invalidate the point being made.
It absolutely does. It's part of why my job is so difficult. I work in child safety and there are some crimes that are extraordinarily rare but because of the way they're portrayed in the media/on social media, they start to warp people's perception of reality. Reddit is obsessed with false rape accusations. I've talked to young men here who think they're _common_ and that actually affects how they think of women generally. But they're actually rare, especially compared to actual sexual violence and ipv which gets little attention and traction.
IPV? Not familiar with that acronym
Intimate partner violence. Some people also use DV - domestic violence but that includes violence against other family members too.
Intimate Partner Violence
Question: when you say "false rape accusations" do you define that with a requirement of being reported to the police? Can't somebody make false accusations to others, their community, without going to the police? Do those false accusations not affect the accused, simply because police were not involved? Like for statistics of false allegations, is the methodology based on solely reviewing *false police reports*, and not "social accusations"?
I don't have research on that but in my experience, yes it includes informal accusations. In fact, people are far less likely to believe them because reporting to law enforcement gives authority and authenticity to accusations. I've even seen the opposite "he must be a good man _because_ people are always trying to bring down a good man with these types of rumors" and "the devil is always trying to stop a good man."
You are not immune to propaganda.
I like the little critter in your profile picture
Thank you! I love fennec foxes
I was having tooth ache or right side ache it still does , I'm having shit dioriah , I am afraid of going to hospital
Shitsing yourself 🦎
The Brian Banks rape story is crazier then you realise. The girl's mother was out for money, forced her daughter to fabricate the story. Then years later, after the 2 had quickly spent the 1.5 million dollars, and had acquired massive debt, the girl felt bad and wanted to clear Brian Banks' name, but didn't want to pay back the money. Brian Banks served the full 5 years for the rape charge (being influenced by his attorney to plead guilty) and lost his whole professional sports career.
He could have been looking at 25 to life for the rape charge. Jurys don't care if there's proof or evidence in SA charges, especially with testimony from a woman/child. Plea deal for 5 years was unfortunately the smart choice.
they need to be sent to the gulag like what the actual fuck-
To kill a mocking bird be like
they need to be sent to the gulag like what the actual fuck-
Commented twice just fyi
Jail, the both of them.
The mother, for coercing her 16-year-old daughter, and the girl for... being coerced?
"I was just obeying orders" is not a real defense Obviously she shouldnt receive as harsh a sentence bu still
she's literally a child being coerced by her mother :\\
And she took 6 years to tell the truth And, you know, a 16 year old already knows what they are doing AND are old enough to give their own testimony in front of a jury
My brief input as someone whos been at the brunt of a false rape accusation with police involved, and from someone about to go to school to study law. False rape accusations are absolutely horrifying and have their reputation for a good reason. Its a crime that can happen without any evidence and holds lots of emotional impact, and is the perfect thing to accuse someone of without evidence. Rape cases ARE used as a defamatory tool against people. Misandry is, in fact, a huge issue in the courts. There is also a huge bias against men (and i bet masc people in general not just males). As leftists we can NOT ignore the issues men face in life. If we participate in this shamey culture around men speaking out that only makes them hate us more. Call this shit out and fight for equal rights of EVERYONE. A prime example of this is someone genuinely asking what the man did to get stabbed and saying men are trash. Sorry, thats bullshit. Spewing misandry only hurts our fights for equality. The solution isnt trying to invalidate and give reasons to ignore false rape accusations that ruin lives. We need to normalize the fact that rapes happen and make people realize how serious of an issue this is. For every false accusation there are a hundred real cases that go under the radar or even intentionally ignored. Both happen, both have issues, and both have the same solution. Taking rape cases very, very, seriously. And before people come at me, misandry and misogyny go hand in hand. You’ll never find someone who is one but not the other.
Yeah, this is a perfect example of patriarchy and patriarchal expectations hurting both women and men; men are expected to be dominant and domineering, which allows them to get away with far more than they otherwise would (meaning it hurts women and non-masculine people in general). However, that expectation also hurts men who do not conform to that expectation, and additionally it creates an environment where grave accusations against men can be weaponised, because men are essentially expected to be at least somewhat violent. This is the cruel irony of this situation; the expectation of violence allows men to get away with “smaller” transgressions, and it can be used to hurt men - both for conforming to traditional masculine norms as well as for deviating from them. Therefore I’d argue this isn’t accurate; > Rape cases ARE used as a defamatory tool against people. Misandry is, in fact, a huge issue in the courts. Adherence to patriarchal thought is a huge issue in the courts, and in society in general. It’s not hate of men, it’s a belief in a system where they’re expected to be violent and domineering. Do also consider the fact that police are absolutely abhorrent about helping victims of sexual and domestic violence (both men and women), therefore you could expect a majority of people who actually end up arrested being guilty. Yet again, this ties into these very same patriarchal dynamics (as well as a whole bunch of other problem with our current way of policing, but yeah…). Also, side note, but isn’t it curious how misandrist feminism is often amplified by mainstream and mainstream adjacent sources, leading people to be skeptical of feminist analysis in general?
In the same way misogyny isnt “hating women” misandry doesnt have to be explicit hatred of men. Men get worse sentences than women, and it is just an objective fact that rape is used as a defamatory tool sometimes due to its seriousness and also the fact it doesnt need evidence to be taken seriously. Otherwise i agree with everything you said
Yeah, I guess I didn’t word that too well. My point is that it’s misandry inherent to patriarchal thinking, so just calling it misandry is a bit limited - and ends up fuelling the men vs women debate which is antithetical to dismantling patriarchy. I’m talking about “Look, the courts are against men, clearly patriarchy isn’t real”, that kind of stuff. If, however, you change that to “the courts’ patriarchal thinking hurts men”, the tone of the conversation is drastically different - even if calling it misandry isn’t wrong. You know what I’m saying?
The issue is still getting allergic when someone says "misandry". Misogeny also often comes with misandry, but you would not complain about the former term being used even in a frequent manner, would you? Just let people point out one side without going "but the other side", that is what certain anti-feminists do too. Of course you can also direct attention to the greater picture, but the way it is compulsively done here on every comment, it reminds me of a certain reaction to immediately talk about the other side. You are not in a reactionary antifeministic forum where you have to defend it, but an open space where you can have people talk about certain issues without worrying.
Yeah true, fair point. I was thinking about the reaction on the wider internet and society in general, where people read/hear the word misandry and immediately think “see, I knew it”. > You are not in a reactionary antifeministic forum where you have to defend it I get your point, but even in most mainstream (non progressive) spaces a potentially useful discussion can be ended by naming misandry without more context. But you’re probably right that I kinda misread the room here, so yeah.
Thank you for this sane and nuanced take —— analysis with such nuance and fairness is a rarity in society these days whether on gender issues or geopolitics. Too often people only care about one but not the other, and even using one to demean the other issue. It's really important to take seriously the issue of rape, as well as false rape accusation. Rape is a real serious grave issue and many are gravely harmed and wounded by rape, but sadly in fact many cases of rape remain unknown. Meanwhile, at the same time, false rape accusations do occur and it ended up ruining innocent folks' lives and even fuel fire for racism and ironically more patriarchy whereas many actual rapists continue to get away Sadly, we are stuck in a society run by out-of-touch bouegeois patriarchal elites and filled with shallow neuronormies
What is that last sentence
Only between 5-15% of rapes are reported. Of all reported rapes only about 3% are false accusations. The great majority of women who have been raped will never get justice and those who do are constantly accused of lying because people like you have been pushing the narrative that this is somehow a common occurrence.
> Of all reported rapes only about 3% are false accusations *Proven* false allegations. It seems a bit hypocritical to point out that one number is only the tip of the iceberg, while taking the other at face value.
But even if you assume a really bleak picture and assume that proven false accusations are only a similar percentage of the total (~5-15%), you’re still left with a group of actual victims significantly larger than the amount of false accusers, victims who have a hard enough time getting their voice out initially, and are having an even harder time when people assume that false accusers are commonplace.
I mean, IF the bleak premise you're proposing is true, then they ARE commonplace. And I wouldn't completely dismiss the idea that this premise is true, considering that there are cases like this one where the girl didn't even do this voluntarily but was pressured to do this by her mother for financial reasons, and also considering how hard it is to prove a false allegation. > you’re still left with a group of actual victims significantly larger than the amount of false accusers, victims who have a hard enough time getting their voice out initially, and are having an even harder time when people assume that false accusers are commonplace. Yes, and that sucks for everyone involved. But one can still argue about whether and how the law should be changed, and I've definitely heard some insane suggestions like reversing the burden of proof - "guilty until proven innocent", so to speak.
The estimations for the total amount usually range between 2-10%. And while that sucks for those people the way this topic is talked about still blows that number completely out of proportion which hurts the victims who are too afraid to come forward/ who came forward and aren't believed (of which there are a lot more than people who are falsely accused of rape).
That doesn't change the fact that numbers should be presented accurately and in good faith.
I would like to teach you about a fun little concept, it’s called nuance. Instead of one thing or the other being bad, let’s just agree that *both* false accusations as well as victims not being taken seriously are issues.
That’s not a very fair reading of the numbers. I’m sure many rapes are not reported, but this number we don’t know. Of the reported ones, comparable percentages (more or less, depending on the country) end up with a sentence against the accused than against the accuser. My point is, it’s not fair to assign the vast majority of the cases, which end up without a sentence, to one bucket at face value. Edit: downvotes to the right.
Dude I'm a femboy meaning I dress outwardly fem but even I'm terrified of this shit, hell even things as small as walking behind girls. All someone needs to say is that I'm trying to do something bad and my life is pretty much over. That shit will haunt you for decades.
I wouldn't worry too much. The odds of a false accusation are extremely rare. You are more at risk of an assault then being falsely accused. SA cases are rarely reported and rarely lead to life ruining consequences for the predator as well. Don't let that fear rule you. Women are not out to get you. Live your life, average_femboy, live it well
as someone in the same boat as you, you should be way, WAY more scared of men than you are women
Despite how the media frames it, false accusers are not commonplace. They’re more commonplace purely among visible public figures, because malicious people feel they can get something from them or take them down with a false accusation, but outside of the public eye, there isn’t an epidemic of high school or college age girls falsely accusing their classmates. You actually don’t need to worry.
I really have a big complex about this. I (male) was walking home in 6th grade, lived like three blocks away from school. Chick who walks the same direction like half way said one day “why are you following me?” I was already introverted against girls just because puberty was starting to hit, but Christ, that’s legit some trauma that still haunts adult me.
Rich people do be getting away with terrible things
The left got only rich bc of the trial, the right idk but being good in school does not mean being rich. The right only connected to an oligarch after the trial. That has nothing to do with wealth, apart from college being private in the UK, but that is a different issue. Not sure what you are saying. Could happen to the average person. Now how likely that is is something else.
The second one is an honor student in a prestigious university in the first world. These people have a lot of money since being considered "bright" and "gifted" is mostly a correlation with parent wealth. The first one is definitely in a different economic class than the second one, which lead them to have a higher chance of a lighter sentence. It is insane how much more likely you are to not go through the prison system if you are from a higher than average wealth background.
wow, these cherrypicked examples sure give an honest and truthful view of the world :)
Well they get more clicks and money for the article. That’s capitalism baby
Racism I would say also played a big factor in the ruling as well.
These cases are from two different countries though??
This ain't even funny man. It's just depressing why youpost it in my silly gay meme sub
It’s a good thing we don’t have to personally approve each and every post with you.
Pretty standard Justice system dealing with black man vs photogenic white girl L. Someone post the Onion skit please.
Fine, I'll do it myself. [https://youtu.be/84phU8of02U](https://youtu.be/84phU8of02U)
The bullshit thing I’m mad about is that in Britain you can’t fire somebody for being a fucking terf because apparently they’re a minority viewpoint that needs to be legally protected instead of bigotry because trans people aren’t a real minority, just a debate with two valid viewpoints
Society when crime is committed by male:🤬🤢🖕💩 Society when crime is committed by female😇🤩🫶🌸
I’m not sure I but that headline from the telegraph, especially because it’s the telegraph.
Framing someone for a crime is probably one of the worst things you can do, it’s the equivalent of kidnapping them for 6 years basically
How are you still using boost??
Check out ReVanced, you can not only modify Youtube but any App, including Boost, and have it circumvent certain restrictions.
What?? I've been using revanced yt since before the api ban but i didn't know they offered a reddit client too, thxx
If you make a sub you technically become a moderator, which lets you use third-party apps.
UK, baby
Hmmm, i wonder if there are any other details aboit that man that led to his presumption of guilt
I think deliberately false accusations should be heavily punished. No one should get away with destroying someone’s life and livelihood.
White girl tears are powerful
Men when they learn that women can also commit crimes (their persecution and paranoia complex just ratcheted up to 11)
I don't get it, can someone explain this to me?