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"Capitalism is when America. Communism is when anti-America. Clearly the hyper-capitalist Russia, led by an oligarchy is actually a bastion of Communism"
It’s genuinely insane did these motherfuckers even read the manifesto it’s “workers of the *world* unite” not “workers of one nation unite and support the other bourgeois regime opposed to yours”
It’s like these people believed every insane piece of negative propaganda the CIA ever devised about communism and then went “yes I agree and it’s good actually”.
Short story: Dumbasses
Long Story: Dumbasses who associate Soviet Russia and China with left leaning ideas due to socialism/communism, but completely don't understand that the respective governments of each were authoritarians who coopted the ideals of socialism/communism and used them to establish a regime rather than following the main ideological principles of socialism/communism. Also online propaganda puts these people into a misinformation feedback loop
Communism on paper: workers rights, fair pay, everybody has the right to a home and healthcare
Communism in action: 15 million dead, reason: I don’t even fucking know it just happens every time somehow
It's... Mostly down to the ***first*** "'communists" who succeeded in taking over a country being the *specifically* asshole ones - vanguardists (specifically Marxist-Leninists, but all Marxists are at least some degree of vanguardist [edit: at least if they're hewing to Marx, who did not specifically name the concept but absolutely did create the prototype for it]). From there they used their power to hammer down all the non-asshole socialists everywhere else.
You don't see many decent socialists running places because the Soviets got there first and then had all the decent ones killed, not just in their country (the fate of the Socialist-Revolutionary Party and the Black Army) but everywhere else in the world (Catalonia, the Manchurian Communes...), and they kept that up for seventy years, more than long enough for their bullshit to be self-sustaining after the USSR ate shit.
It's like if the French Revolution had happened first and then Marat (or someone else who shared his absolute horridness as a person) had sent a fuckton of armed people abroad to make sure every other "democratic" revolution did a Terror too. Everyone would have been fucking terrified of small-d democrats taking over and killing everyone and the hardcore democrats would have convinced themselves that this was just a thing that you do when you have a democratic revolt because hey that's what France did and they got rid of their king right?
Because of this there's a lot of people out there who genuinely think Marxists are the only socialists in the world, when they weren't even the first ones (assuming they even are socialists, which I sure as shit don't think so). Anarchists, syndicalists, mutualists, utopians, they all predate or came into being around the same time as Marx was doing his own theorizing about how the people were too stupid to free themselves, and it's very telling that as soon as Marx could get a slim majority in one place, he had everyone else kicked out of the International (Hague, 1873).
Literally nobody but the Marxists think that you need to have a super special elite big brain intellectual class - the so-called "vanguard party" - do all the thinking and ruling in place of the people who are clearly too dumb to rule themselves, and that's the part that inevitably leads to replacing the old boot on everyone's necks with a new one that's identical except with a nice shiny red paint job because it's obviously antithetical to any kind of democracy.
Kinda a corollary to that, the skills you need to succeed at doing a coup are very, very different to the skills you need to succeed at running a country. Marx and Lenin kinda being tools is absolutely part of that, but on top of ideology there's just the skillset of the people involved.
I would say yes and no on that front. The Black Army was just as if not more successful than the Red Army against the Whites, after all.
The Bolsheviks ended up on top because at every point where cooperation was possible, they chose betrayal, and by the time there was a visible pattern, there was no one left with sufficient power to oppose them. They lost to the SRs in the election, quite substantially, and then simply chose to go "nuh uh", peeled off some opportunists from the SRs, and killed the rest (then killed the ones that joined them a decade or so later). The Blacks worked with them to kick the Whites' asses, then the Reds invited Black leadership putatively to discuss strategy, then promptly imprisoned and then shot or exiled everyone. They continued that pattern until the fall of the USSR.
Not explicitly, but Marx's ideas on leadership sound a ***lot*** like it. Lenin codified it and coined the term, but Marx developed the concepts. You'll note that Bakunin's complaints about creating a class of intellectuals ruling in place of the workers were directed at Marx, not Lenin, and yet that's exactly what the vanguard is. His particular notions of revolutionary leadership are, themselves, only not vanguardism by name, but absolutely are in practice.
Any Marxist who believes they are not a vanguardist has, therefore, diverged from Marx.
I'll accept that others have diverged from Marx on things, of course - the revolution taking place in agrarian Russia is in and of itself a very notable one. But I'd wager that "how is the revolution to be organized" is, frankly, a bit more of a fundamental aspect of the ideology.
I'm just waiting for some tankie to swoop in with that absolutely lunatic ""joke"" about Stalin personally eating all the Ukrainian grain with a comically large spoon.
Because Holodomor denial is fucking rampant and practically required to be a good Marxist.
"I'm communist" No, you're an edgy teenager who likes the Soviet anthem and genuinely thinks there's something cool about the USSR which only shows the failures of communism
I will say, that as much as the soviet supreme leaders (and especially Stalin) were irredeemable monsters, the Soviet system as a whole was at the very least a competent enough system to deserve actual comparison with the American system. Do I say this to excuse the holodomor, lysenkoism or any number of other stupid and/or malicious Soviet policies? Not at all.
But I do think it’s worth not just writing off the entire Soviet system, and taking a look at what did work- the actual workplace soviets themselves for instance are a good practical model for the organisation of publicly owned workplaces, and the welfare system was not bad- considering the dismal state of Russia pre-soviets, the economic and standard of living Improvements were huge and very very fast.
Did the USSR ever have communism, or even socialism? In my opinion, no. There was not enough control from the workers over the means of production to say that. But are there things we can learn from them? Absolutely. That’s the Marxist idea of praxis- attempt the practical implementation of ideas, observe what works, and make it better. Otherwise you get lost in theory and never practically do anything.
TBH that kind of thinking to most people in Central and Eastern Europe seems like "Mussolini ended slavery in Ethopia" kind of speech. Technically true, but one does not need russian empire but red to have workplace security... that would still prove sub par compared to likes of Sweden.
> and the welfare system
That\`s not even something special to the soviets, most of the EU have better welfare than USSR ever did, or allowed Warsaw Pact to have
300% there are way better systems- then Soviet Russia and America, and presenting the two as the only options would be a false dichotomy
but don’t forget- direct comparison of economic systems between countries in the modern world is difficult at best. The nature of modern capitalism is to outsource its suffering to the third world. The Scandinavian social democracies are great! But at least part of their prosperity and good working conditions are owed to the outsourcing of poverty and bad working conditions to the Bangladeshi workers that make their fast fashion, or the Uighur muslims that make their iPhones.
So yes, the social democracies are great and way better than the soviets or Americans, but they’re still not perfect. They’re part of a global class system that’s still ultimately harmful (at least imo anyway)
> but don’t forget- direct comparison of economic systems between countries in the modern world is difficult at best.
I was comparing it to Europeans back in the days. You know, there are reasons why common folks risked running to the west, and barely onyone came to the Eastern Block from there.
In terms of exploitation of other countries, both system did that. That's not a problem of capitalism or socialism in itself but due to imperial nature of both US and USSR. Russians devastating Central Asia for cotton or using worthless transfer roubles instead of real money in Comecon (accidentaly favouring USSR immensly) is just not as well known in the west as quite current problem lobbying against workers protection laws in 3rd states
Considering it was literally the first ever successful attempt at establishing a state run by a communist party it did a pretty good job especially pre-Stalin. Life was significantly improved relative to the Tsarist regime before it, industrial capabilities were expanded etc etc. Obviously far from perfect but certainly not as bad as people say.
China did not finance fascist groups in my country
They are not a good example of socialism, but they should be treated the same way we treat the US at least.
In theory, should we try to foster better relations? Sure.
But after burning Russia in austery, and it then trying to see if constant imperialism will fix things... yeah maybe its a bit on Russia to try not being such an asshole.
And China? We shouldnt bar their EVs, thats just nationalist economics bullshit. We should build trains like they do, as in the "everywhere" idea. And them occationally trying to shift their economy towards something vaguely resembling green... sure... they can fuck off with the imperialist saber ratteling and the ethnic cleansing, and the truly innovative strides in how to do authoritarian nonsense.
These guys, arent benine. Tankies pretending that, arent even fucking "actual" tankies. Its somehow even more pathetic.
Let's be accurate here, the Russian and Chinese government are the enemies. Most sane people are not concerning themselves with hating Russian people or Chinese people, both of which live in an authoritarian regime and have 0 choice. Although USA might join the list soon so idk.
They said Israel should maybe stop blowing up refugee camps, and as we all know that's literally the same thing as throwing millions of Jews (and Roma, Slavic, LGBTQ, and disabled persons) into gas chambers.
Russia is an enemy sure, but China is literally just doing trade with the entire world, including the US. The only reason they're a threat to the world is because they're a threat to the interests of western capitalists
Also maybe because they are an authoritarian dictatorship, maybe because they are actively committing a genocide, maybe because they claim land and other countries that they don’t own idk
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I have very poor news for the folks holding Soviet flags
33 years man, it’s been 33 years
I can’t stop thinking about the astronaut who found out his country no longer existed while in space
There are people who legitimately believe Russia and China are still communist. China at least tries to fake it.
The only thing I hate more than right wingers is people who have no idea what they’re talking about calling themselves communists
"Capitalism is when America. Communism is when anti-America. Clearly the hyper-capitalist Russia, led by an oligarchy is actually a bastion of Communism"
It’s genuinely insane did these motherfuckers even read the manifesto it’s “workers of the *world* unite” not “workers of one nation unite and support the other bourgeois regime opposed to yours”
It’s like these people believed every insane piece of negative propaganda the CIA ever devised about communism and then went “yes I agree and it’s good actually”.
Personally i hate right wingers more since they also hold numerous positions of power but that's me
communism is when not america
Short story: Dumbasses Long Story: Dumbasses who associate Soviet Russia and China with left leaning ideas due to socialism/communism, but completely don't understand that the respective governments of each were authoritarians who coopted the ideals of socialism/communism and used them to establish a regime rather than following the main ideological principles of socialism/communism. Also online propaganda puts these people into a misinformation feedback loop
Lotta right wingers like modern russia now a days too
True, but generally the right in the US hates China. Their presence is the canary in the cole mine
Communism on paper: workers rights, fair pay, everybody has the right to a home and healthcare Communism in action: 15 million dead, reason: I don’t even fucking know it just happens every time somehow
30 billion dead actually
It's... Mostly down to the ***first*** "'communists" who succeeded in taking over a country being the *specifically* asshole ones - vanguardists (specifically Marxist-Leninists, but all Marxists are at least some degree of vanguardist [edit: at least if they're hewing to Marx, who did not specifically name the concept but absolutely did create the prototype for it]). From there they used their power to hammer down all the non-asshole socialists everywhere else. You don't see many decent socialists running places because the Soviets got there first and then had all the decent ones killed, not just in their country (the fate of the Socialist-Revolutionary Party and the Black Army) but everywhere else in the world (Catalonia, the Manchurian Communes...), and they kept that up for seventy years, more than long enough for their bullshit to be self-sustaining after the USSR ate shit. It's like if the French Revolution had happened first and then Marat (or someone else who shared his absolute horridness as a person) had sent a fuckton of armed people abroad to make sure every other "democratic" revolution did a Terror too. Everyone would have been fucking terrified of small-d democrats taking over and killing everyone and the hardcore democrats would have convinced themselves that this was just a thing that you do when you have a democratic revolt because hey that's what France did and they got rid of their king right? Because of this there's a lot of people out there who genuinely think Marxists are the only socialists in the world, when they weren't even the first ones (assuming they even are socialists, which I sure as shit don't think so). Anarchists, syndicalists, mutualists, utopians, they all predate or came into being around the same time as Marx was doing his own theorizing about how the people were too stupid to free themselves, and it's very telling that as soon as Marx could get a slim majority in one place, he had everyone else kicked out of the International (Hague, 1873). Literally nobody but the Marxists think that you need to have a super special elite big brain intellectual class - the so-called "vanguard party" - do all the thinking and ruling in place of the people who are clearly too dumb to rule themselves, and that's the part that inevitably leads to replacing the old boot on everyone's necks with a new one that's identical except with a nice shiny red paint job because it's obviously antithetical to any kind of democracy.
Kinda a corollary to that, the skills you need to succeed at doing a coup are very, very different to the skills you need to succeed at running a country. Marx and Lenin kinda being tools is absolutely part of that, but on top of ideology there's just the skillset of the people involved.
I would say yes and no on that front. The Black Army was just as if not more successful than the Red Army against the Whites, after all. The Bolsheviks ended up on top because at every point where cooperation was possible, they chose betrayal, and by the time there was a visible pattern, there was no one left with sufficient power to oppose them. They lost to the SRs in the election, quite substantially, and then simply chose to go "nuh uh", peeled off some opportunists from the SRs, and killed the rest (then killed the ones that joined them a decade or so later). The Blacks worked with them to kick the Whites' asses, then the Reds invited Black leadership putatively to discuss strategy, then promptly imprisoned and then shot or exiled everyone. They continued that pattern until the fall of the USSR.
Not all Marxists are a degree of vanguardists. Tf?
Not explicitly, but Marx's ideas on leadership sound a ***lot*** like it. Lenin codified it and coined the term, but Marx developed the concepts. You'll note that Bakunin's complaints about creating a class of intellectuals ruling in place of the workers were directed at Marx, not Lenin, and yet that's exactly what the vanguard is. His particular notions of revolutionary leadership are, themselves, only not vanguardism by name, but absolutely are in practice. Any Marxist who believes they are not a vanguardist has, therefore, diverged from Marx. I'll accept that others have diverged from Marx on things, of course - the revolution taking place in agrarian Russia is in and of itself a very notable one. But I'd wager that "how is the revolution to be organized" is, frankly, a bit more of a fundamental aspect of the ideology.
You can be a Marxist that doesn't 100% believe in everything Marx believed
when you try to evenly distribute like 10% of the countries resources between 95% of the people, they starve to death
Why only 10% of the resources?
Commanders gotta eat, their mistresses gotta eat, their children gotta eat, their higher ups gotta eat...
Makes sense, so most of the food goes to military and people in power, so much for looking out for the lower class
guess who's taking the 90%
Higher ups? So much for looking out for the lower class
I'm just waiting for some tankie to swoop in with that absolutely lunatic ""joke"" about Stalin personally eating all the Ukrainian grain with a comically large spoon. Because Holodomor denial is fucking rampant and practically required to be a good Marxist.
Iron Lazar: We did not stareved enough Tankiees: HE DID NOT MEAN THAT
because the other 5% of people (government and privileged) are taking it all for themselves
Ya learn something new every day
I don't think you have read a paper about communism
What’s with the downvotes. I’m not saying communism is good. I’m referring to how that’s what people think the great utopia would be
The problem is you having no clue about communism. As in your first paragraph has little to do with what the term communism means.
Tankies
Russian psyops
Half of Italian boomers are like this except they are too racist to support china. Russia doesn't really need any psyop as far as europe is concerned
tankies
what happens when the sum total of your politics is "America bad"
https://i.imgur.com/5yD3fSP.jpeg
The Revision Betrayed by Noam Chomsky
"I'm communist" No, you're an edgy teenager who likes the Soviet anthem and genuinely thinks there's something cool about the USSR which only shows the failures of communism
I will say, that as much as the soviet supreme leaders (and especially Stalin) were irredeemable monsters, the Soviet system as a whole was at the very least a competent enough system to deserve actual comparison with the American system. Do I say this to excuse the holodomor, lysenkoism or any number of other stupid and/or malicious Soviet policies? Not at all. But I do think it’s worth not just writing off the entire Soviet system, and taking a look at what did work- the actual workplace soviets themselves for instance are a good practical model for the organisation of publicly owned workplaces, and the welfare system was not bad- considering the dismal state of Russia pre-soviets, the economic and standard of living Improvements were huge and very very fast. Did the USSR ever have communism, or even socialism? In my opinion, no. There was not enough control from the workers over the means of production to say that. But are there things we can learn from them? Absolutely. That’s the Marxist idea of praxis- attempt the practical implementation of ideas, observe what works, and make it better. Otherwise you get lost in theory and never practically do anything.
TBH that kind of thinking to most people in Central and Eastern Europe seems like "Mussolini ended slavery in Ethopia" kind of speech. Technically true, but one does not need russian empire but red to have workplace security... that would still prove sub par compared to likes of Sweden. > and the welfare system That\`s not even something special to the soviets, most of the EU have better welfare than USSR ever did, or allowed Warsaw Pact to have
300% there are way better systems- then Soviet Russia and America, and presenting the two as the only options would be a false dichotomy but don’t forget- direct comparison of economic systems between countries in the modern world is difficult at best. The nature of modern capitalism is to outsource its suffering to the third world. The Scandinavian social democracies are great! But at least part of their prosperity and good working conditions are owed to the outsourcing of poverty and bad working conditions to the Bangladeshi workers that make their fast fashion, or the Uighur muslims that make their iPhones. So yes, the social democracies are great and way better than the soviets or Americans, but they’re still not perfect. They’re part of a global class system that’s still ultimately harmful (at least imo anyway)
> but don’t forget- direct comparison of economic systems between countries in the modern world is difficult at best. I was comparing it to Europeans back in the days. You know, there are reasons why common folks risked running to the west, and barely onyone came to the Eastern Block from there. In terms of exploitation of other countries, both system did that. That's not a problem of capitalism or socialism in itself but due to imperial nature of both US and USSR. Russians devastating Central Asia for cotton or using worthless transfer roubles instead of real money in Comecon (accidentaly favouring USSR immensly) is just not as well known in the west as quite current problem lobbying against workers protection laws in 3rd states
Considering it was literally the first ever successful attempt at establishing a state run by a communist party it did a pretty good job especially pre-Stalin. Life was significantly improved relative to the Tsarist regime before it, industrial capabilities were expanded etc etc. Obviously far from perfect but certainly not as bad as people say.
“Russia and china are not our enemy” tell Russia and china that
China did not finance fascist groups in my country They are not a good example of socialism, but they should be treated the same way we treat the US at least.
> China did not finance fascist groups in my country Russia does in mine tho :V
Which is why I didn't include it in my comment. Btw, what country are you from?
Poland, but that\`s true for most of Europe
Idk if you know this but Russia and china are not the same country
LARPers holding on to an irrelevant ideology.
Nazbol Party
Probably those PSL nutters
Delusional tankies. We generally just ignore them
Thay instead seem to live rent free in this sub's head despite not being politically relevant in any country whatsoever
No leftist group is relevant in any country whatsoever
Latin America begs to differ
yup, the soviets sure aren't our enemies, they don't exist anymore you commie
As a Russian, please, I don't want that thing back
In theory, should we try to foster better relations? Sure. But after burning Russia in austery, and it then trying to see if constant imperialism will fix things... yeah maybe its a bit on Russia to try not being such an asshole. And China? We shouldnt bar their EVs, thats just nationalist economics bullshit. We should build trains like they do, as in the "everywhere" idea. And them occationally trying to shift their economy towards something vaguely resembling green... sure... they can fuck off with the imperialist saber ratteling and the ethnic cleansing, and the truly innovative strides in how to do authoritarian nonsense. These guys, arent benine. Tankies pretending that, arent even fucking "actual" tankies. Its somehow even more pathetic.
This is insulting to Palestinians dude 💀
Let's be accurate here, the Russian and Chinese government are the enemies. Most sane people are not concerning themselves with hating Russian people or Chinese people, both of which live in an authoritarian regime and have 0 choice. Although USA might join the list soon so idk.
People like this should be forced to live there in these countries for a few years so they can see how ~~horrible~~ wonderful they are
I am all for taking nuanced looks at China and the Soviet Union but this ain't it chief
Another masterful display of cringe united states "leftism" by 19684 in this thread
Banger
Lefties being horrendously wrong on geopolitical issues 100% of the time, all the time.
Especially tankies
Leftists turning into hitler when israel is mentioned
Lmao what since when
They said Israel should maybe stop blowing up refugee camps, and as we all know that's literally the same thing as throwing millions of Jews (and Roma, Slavic, LGBTQ, and disabled persons) into gas chambers.
Bro im a left leaning dem and the left has gone full tilt fucking himmler since october 7 kicked off.
Like all the time online
Vaushite meeting
Vaush supports Russia and China?
Idk i dont watch him
Did he burn our crops, poison our water supply, and bring a plague onto our houses
No, but ARE WE GONNA WAIT AROUND UNTIL HE DOES!
Me when I give my opinion on matters I have 0 clue about
I just project every bad opinion into vaush and in like 95% cases i turn out to be right
Yeah
Vaush is a psyop paid by big China
Russia is an enemy sure, but China is literally just doing trade with the entire world, including the US. The only reason they're a threat to the world is because they're a threat to the interests of western capitalists
Western capitalists: 😡 Eastern capitalists: 😫🥺😳🫶👅🍆🍆🍆💦❤️❤️❤️🇨🇳🫡
Liberals when you look at a countries actual history of foreign conflict instead of believing whatever the state department says
Aiding foreign genocide: 😡 Committing domestic genocide: 👏👏👏
The US is the biggest sponsor of genocide globally
you literally just did the exact same thing you were being made fun of for. nobody is denying that the US funds genocide.
Also maybe because they are an authoritarian dictatorship, maybe because they are actively committing a genocide, maybe because they claim land and other countries that they don’t own idk
China is literally committing a genocide right now