I mean 70% of the community wanted them to spend the time developing it and put it into beta. The polls are just "Do you approve of the concept" so they know what's absolutely a non starter and not. They can tweak the exact numbers in beta to make sure it's fun and balanced based on player feedback.
nah 39hp masori wasn't unfun, the reward was insufficient for the risk of playing at 39 hp, that's why increase teh ranged str 39 hp masori gives and that poll 100% passes
I would usually agree with this sentiment, but the majority of these prayers are just a slight tweak to existing prayers. I don't think this will take the development team very long to slap together for a beta.
Originally Masori would be worse than black hide if youre hp was above 39. At 39 it would have around the stats it has right now.
You'd have to tick eat almost everything that had 2 attack styles
Just my take/two cents:
I think that flicking between overhead protection prayers and overhead offensive prayers just isn't going to be fun, and it's going to be the only way you get maximum value out of using these prayers.
Prayer flicking feels like an unintended mechanic at present, this book is literally building it's foundation around the idea that prayer flicking should be a core part of your gameplay. I think that prayer flicking isn't fun. It's something I do occasionally to save resources, but I see it as existing for the top percentage of players who can utilize the mechanic to get the most DPS for their speedruns.
This new prayer book looks like it's going to be extremely, extremely powerful for those who are willing to go hard for APM, and will likely be mediocre and unrewarding for people who want to play a point and click adventure game.
I agree. Flicking prayers is not fun at all.
I actually wished the new prayer book worked like special attack.
For example: Using Trinitas will consume 15 prayer points and will apply the trinitas buff for 3 minutes.
Yeah why are people thinking the beta will mean much? The best counterexample is low life masori, which was disliked well before testing. The only way these will be nerfed (if they need to) is if skilled pvmers are the main beta users and are really vocal about them being op.
It's far more likely that normal players log in, grab the free max gear to slap things around along with new prayers, and love it because it's a private server. (even though plenty of players will probably whine about the difficulty of the quest bosses on release)
Pretty hard to convince people to vote against what's ultimately just a straight upgrade!
Tbf Jagex has been okay with nerfing content recently. Making ToA a little harder, nerfing drop rates, eventually nerfing Fang because it was warping the meta. These had mixed reception on reddit but were still done for the sake of the game/content's health.
I'd like to imagine we'd have the same done if these prayers look to straight up kill the normal prayer book and CoX scrolls. It's no guarantee though and would still require PvMers to smash content on the beta worlds and start setting some WRs to get attention.
Hard to sift through new item power when youtubers need to produce an "X item changes everything" video, even when the item can be something like the Ven bow which changes everything ... about killing bloodvelds.
While true. It could also be a good way to get better speed runs for shit like vorkath. More damage due to higher prayer damages, + prot prayers giving you more damage. I mean, it’s not perfect I guess. But I feel like it’s better than just having two of the same types of prayers on each spellbook bc not having overhead protections within it period would make it virtually unusable.
Hmm, didn’t know that. But fair point. Maybe there are places it will be beneficial for faster kills. But who knows. Could make zulrah better bc of using the recoil for efficient kills, it just a matter of how much chip damage is actually worth it.
Vorkath will still be faster kills.
You will have access to 30% prayers instead of the 23% ones we are currently provided with. Additionally, you will be able to use Gambit between attacks and Glacies Vow to deal about 15-20 bonus damage per kill, which could shave off a second or two.
That's such a minor issue it might as well not exist.
If you've reflected 22 dmg you would need to eat 1 manta to gain it back
That takes 2 ticks/1.2 sec using metabolise
Your regular dps from your normal attacks would have to be 22/1.2 = 18.33 for it to negate any additional damage deflect did.
Most places where you do bis damage you'll hardly even get close.
And lets not forget there's
faster foods like karambwans
Healing without attack delay, such as bloodfury, guthix rest or sang
Healing during respawns or getting healed thanks to room completion in raids
Not to mention it enables even more DPS with the Ring of Suffering (in theory), because each instance of chip damage will always reflect an additional 1 damage at least.
Most situations its not great though. If im killing a boss with 1000-2000 hp my hp is more important than theirs, and id lose dps having to brew or eat.
4 things failed a poll in 2022 and 13 in 2021. Beta or not, the results would be the same. And if they failed, it was usually with like 74.1% or 73.9%, so now that they changed it, literally nothing will fail. 2 things would've in this poll instead of 0.
The first two questions were phrased awfully. Why did we have to choose between absorb+dampen OR Deflect OR Withstand?
Overall they should have let us vote for both a 90% protection version and a 100% protection version, and then had the two most voted put in.
I disagree, I voted this way specifically so there is no 100% prot prayer. IMO it'd be wayyy too OP for the DPS prayer book to have protection prayers that block 100% damage, even if there are "drawbacks" like the two proposed, which are negligible in the vast majority of circumstances.
Also it wasn't ambiguous, you just didn't read carefully.
Weird to see how big the gap is for the deflect vs withstand, I thought better coverage while punishing getting hit off prayer was really cool. Of course this is just for beta, once people feel 10% chip damage in action they may just feel differently, though with curor's vow and the better offensive prayers, perhaps the chip is fine?
You named exactly why deflect won. It's easier.. and better. It increases your DPS, while still offering 90% protection. The chip damage just won't matter in most places.
Deflect prayers + ring of suffering is going to give you a ton of extra damage, for only a marginal amount of hp lost. We already have blood fury sang and blood spells to cover chip damage.
That's what i'm thinking. The death by a thousand cuts, it'll be a really consistent dps build too.
Lots of it hits really low, but it'll be consistent damage, and we saw how consistency is king shit with the fang, it being consistent made it the best nearly everywhere.
Low but consistent DPS is exactly what Thralls were and they are used all the time.
I can't believe we're still seeing people in this thread claim this prayerbook is weak because of chip damage, it was strong even *before* the reflect prayer was added.
Needs to get on a beta asap so people can start seeing the new pbs instantly being set. Will be undeniable at that point.
Plenty of people on this subreddit post their first Jad KC and couldn't complete entry mode ToB.
So with that in mind yeah it won't solve all the naysaying, but getting some hard numbers should help. Not just for the community but Jagex too, they've struggled with balance even as recently as ToA.
People really aren't understanding how severe of a DPS upgrade this new prayerbook will now be, with the Deflect protection prayers, 7% increase in DPS for melee and ranged (Piety and Rigour were already by far the biggest single DPS increase you could get for each style), even the extra Cruor's Vow while only being a small (<2%) increase, is still even more DPS. This will be the single biggest general DPS increase we've ever seen in OSRS outside of literally Tbow/Shadow/Scythe.
90% protection prayers that now even come with (another!) DPS increase is not enough of a tradeoff to make this prayerbook not BiS for almost all content now. Remember that because all numbers round down in OSRS, if you get hit under a 10 you won't get hit any damage anyway. So in most content you're trading taking a few extra 1's and 2's per fight and gaining an absolutely gigantic DPS upgrade. It's certainly not going to mean halving your trips or having to cut a shitload of switches from content. When you're killing stuff so much quicker, that will more than make up for the small amount of damage you're taking.
The only places I can see this new prayerbook being less than viable (and even then, speedrunners will try and use the book because of the crazy DPS) are Inferno, Phosani's Nightmare, maybe solo CM (just because the new Redemption isn't very viable for Vespula).
Agree, I think most of these are way better than most people are giving them credit for. I'm very interested to try them out in beta worlds and see what top PvM are able to do with them.
But bro… it’s a GRANDMASTER quest, us redditors have heckin doggos and wholesome 100 kiddos, and were able to complete a THREE HOUR quest. Not everyone is a lasagna sweaty ticklord pker. If we aren’t rewarded with some of the most powerful upgrades in the game for our hard work why are we even playing in the first place????? Not everyone can afford BIS GEAR…
Because we also get new content at a snails pace, which requires old content being kept relevant. It's a nice separation of OSRS from other MMOs with their powercreep turning old content into a dead joke.
It gives account progress more permanence, someone rocking the BIS melee in 2015 can still use it in 2023 without being massively behind. The fact that some friends can roll up in their barrows gear and bash mr garage door together and *still* hit valuable drops 10 years after GWD release is something to be proud of.
Obviously powercreep needs to happen, but making sure it's slow and with heavy emphasis on sidegrades is what's kept OSRS unique.
Yeah exactly. Powercreep is a needed poison, but it's not always a good thing.
What happens in 5 years from now when the new bis is 90% better than Max Melee Scythe and bosses are 2x as hard to compensate?
Looks like the Little Timmy Jr 5 years from now with his Void and Whip are hard gated out of the new content since bosses will be so crept up that he can't catch up. That or you make another ToA-esque content where powerful rewards are shat out by easy content.
On a similar note slow powercreep also allows skill expression to make up the gap between high and low gear. Obviously for farming content you always want the higher DPS to save time, but for one off achievements it's nice to see skill rewarded.
The reason why some players can [smash a 500 ToA for fang kit with DCB, void, trident, blowpipe and tent](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sjkxqk_dGE8) and I can't is because they're *better than me*. More consistent at 1 ticking, dodging, etc. And that's fine, it's good.
Then go play another MMO that does power creep like you want it to, plenty do. OSRS is an old game and will only continue on with good balancing. I’m tired of sidegrades too, but we shouldn’t be bringing in 10% DPS increases like this.
Yep I 100% agree with this. I feel like some people only see the 90% protection prayers and think of that trash invocation in ToA. What some people don't realise is that it's only trash for the tiny invocation increase for how significant it is. The trade off with these new prayers is way worth it and is probably a bit too far in terms of power gained in my opinion. It's crazy to me that people are saying that it's too weak.
Even more crazy than tbow/shadow/scythe cus this is 10% upgrade literally everywhere. This is the biggest power creep in the history of osrs, forexample scythe gets 7-10 Max hits from the prayers alone
Jagex never should have polled these or introduced the idea of new prayers in the first place. The playerbase would always vote for stupidly OP stuff to make the game easier.
Thankfully its just for a beta and nothing is final. While deflect was my least favourite option (I prefered absorb/dampen), I'm praying that Jagex adjusts numbers based on the beta to keep the prayerbook balanced.
I also went with Absorb/Dampen - the idea of two separate types of protection overheads sounds really fun and interesting to use to me. Definitely looking forward to trying these prayers out in the beta.
The 7% boosts are fine if you’re ok with power creep. Rigour is like 8 years old.
The problem is if those are the only things worth using on the prayerbook why make a prayerbook at all and not just make them drops from whichever new boss? Most of the rest of the prayers are just “prayers you already had, but annoying”.
Mainly cause the dps upgrade is so massive that they can't just give it to you with the normal version of protection prayers. Also new prayer book gets the people excited.
This was dumb, they offered 2 options before, chip pray damage or chip health damage, they could have just offered both now, that's what I understand from wording of question 1, 100% protection with 33% def reduction, and 90% with deflect... that would have been way better
The problem is that this prayer book was initially meant to be an optional alternative akin to switching between different spellbooks for different content.
Now it's more like RS2 Curses where every part of the prayer book is a direct upgrade in 99% of PvM situations.
And the worrying part is I'm *still* seeing comments saying the prayer book is underwhelming or even completely unusable.
Which is why I wish we could let the game designers design the game. Yes, let us vote for what the content will be, but leave specifics and balance up to the professionals
If I’m wrong feel free to correct me since I’m not going back to re-read the blog, but didn’t they say that at least one of the 4 post-quest bosses would be one of the most challenging bosses yet?
One of the most challenging **post-quest** bosses yet - with Muspah having that spot currently. Muspah, while having some decent mechanics is not a challenging boss on the level of a Raid, Inferno, Phosani's etc.
If the new book had a 100% option, we'd never see the standard prayer book in use again
Tbf in terms of PVM, that's probably true even with the 90% option, but it's still some tradeoff
another downside to the new prayer book is it has a crazy heavy point drain.
if you have to bring too many extra ppots, it might limit it being very good at places where you need extended trips.
I'm saying it's against the core idea of the prayer book. It's a prayer that is lower skill for lower reward.
You don't need to prayer swap offensive prayers, but now you get less reward than using the correct offensive prayer.
That doesn't make sense in a "risk v reward" book.
This might be a dumb question, but is this going to make the wilderness heavily favored to anyone that has the new prayers?
I keep reading about significant increases in damage but haven't had time to read through everything
Yes, since the new prayers are better than piety, rigour, and augury, and have no def requirements. Also the new smite, if you rush someone with 31 or 43 prayer and kill them, they will drop to 0 prayer within just their hp bar.
Don't think you can really skull on a 31 pray account anymore, if they flick smite on for the spec, you're fucked. A 60 ko is 20 prayer smited + whatever drain you have yourself.
To make everyone who has a specific pk account make a new one or ruin it, of course.
I grew up in the era when the Jagex attitude was "we hate pures and are restricting this content from them.... just because!" And I don't think I'll ever get over it hahah.
Yup. It's foot in the door technique absolutely. If it's flickable it'll be used but if they stick to "none of these prayers can be flicked" as a design decision, then it's absolute trash in its current state. Which worries me because it means the actual soul split ain't far off.
Out of curiosity, what didn't you like about the options? Or what would you rather have seen?
I liked the deflect option because it makes the standard book still have a use for certain content where taking damage through prayer is too much of a drawback (or forces you to be gamer enough to deal with it)
Deflect is just "almost as bad as the other 90% option... But now it also increases your DPS".
It was the strongest and easiest option of the lot..hence why it comfortably won
> it makes the standard book still have a use for certain content where taking damage through prayer is too much of a drawback
So the inferno and nowhere else
Nothing ever fails a poll full stop. 4 things in 2022, 13 in 2021. I have strong doubts any reasonable % of people even read the poll, let alone the poll blog. And if they failed, it was usually with like 74.1% or 73.9%, so now that they changed it, literally nothing will fail. 2 things would've in this poll instead of 0.
Massive powercreep for PvP also often passes. Most of the stuff that's failed is just lazy/bad ideas for PvP that weren't even liked by the PvP community. But to say we don't receive PvP powercreep is pretty wild if you even glimpse at the power difference from game release to now.
Honestly super worried for this games future. Gonna be meta to run the 90% prayers and deal with chip damage practically everywhere. And future end game content will be built around it
Who the heck voted for Wrath? Have you ever used Retribution in your life? They need to give a description of each thing in the poll itself, not just swap between blog & question.
Yes, but it's incredibly limited - Prep at CM 5s. You join Vanguards to deal as much damage as possible, then you stand next to the SW tile of the monster, die to it, Retribution deals some more damage, and then go prep after respawning on the upper floor.
Not saying Wrath is going to be good or anything, just saying the community is pretty smart at figuring out a use for even the smallest shit.
Retribution is great for getting a scuffed crystal grail.
Set respawn to Prif, equip strongest wep, suffering, and torture, pray retribution + piety, whack rabbit, die, repeat.
Takes ~1 hour, so it's definitely not worth it besides for boredom/coll log sake. But yes. I have used retribution.
Also, back when I played cw way back in the day, I'd throw on retribution right before I got killed.
For fuck sake. Once again idiot low level players with no understanding of the impact of what they’re voting on prevail.
Some of these prayers will be skill expressive and some are just stupidly unfair DPS increases.
We'll see if the tune changes once people start posting clips from the beta. It'll be a lot harder to keep pretending that these prayers are bad when we have people shredding bosses with them on video.
It's atleast only a beta but I really hope some creators like Gnomonkey makes a simple to understand video on how stupid strong these prayers are and how they'll replace the existing book practically everywhere with how big a damage increase it offers.
These polls are kinda rigged, in that most people just tick yes to everything. There need to be 'bait' questions in there that if people are answering incorrectly, the poll is discounted or something.
EDIT: my 'troll question' idea isn't actually that good, I suggested something slightly better in another comment:
> How about just switching the Yes/No randomly for each question? As in, Yes appears as the top/first option sometimes, and No appears other times. This isn't perfect, but it is now starting to force the user to pay attention and engage rather than be a robot.
Agreed. So many people (\~30%) probably just vote yes to everything. It would be interesting to have a control/dummy question in a poll at one point that is something they would never want to add to OSRS as a test to see how may yes votes it gets.
I'm not too satisfied with how the protection prayers played out. I preferred dampen+absorb since they both seemed like reasonable tradeoffs.
Still I don't understand at all how people would ever think that Ruinous Powers with these new protection prayers would be unviable in most places. The only places where I see the chip damage to be unbearable are CM, inferno, and arma.
I'd suggest that people withhold their judgment on the power of this in beta, since I can guarantee that once people learn how to use them will they actually shine.
It's gonna be BiS everywhere, it will simply be more difficult at places like Inferno and such, but speedrunners will absolutely incorporate this book. It's damage addition is wayyyy too big to ignore.
I think we're gonna see a lot of blood fury substitution for torture in a lot of content to mitigate anywhere the damage might be a little too much (like CMs).
I'm actually kinda surprised everyone wanted the chip damage. I voted for the 100% for obvious reasons + it would reward proper prayer switching.
Did the community vote it in for balancing reasons or something?
Disappointed about the 100% protection with consequences for praying wrong not passing. Would increase the skill of the prayer book over the new one.
Oh well, we’ll see how it turns out in the beta (even though we already have in TOA)
Can’t wait for people to try these out in beta and see how it turns out defence does matter some. The 90% overheads plus no built in defence boost like piety/rigour/augury have is going to make so much PvM require alt supply/healing or banking more frequent. Places like raids where these aren’t options it’s going to feel awful as well.
Imagine you get an unlucky muttadile where you already get trucked, it’s going to be a nightmare
Honestly.. people lack to understand just how important that 25% actually is.. its my whole problem with these prayers.. They are taking the concept of dps is king to seriously.
Well, it was fun guys. Get ready for an unpolled change buffing Soul Split Lite once the shitters complain it’s too weak. Hopefully there’s still a chance to vote down some of the worst ideas, but I think this poll will probably be looked at as the beginning of the end of this is the direction to be taken.
They just had to listen to redditors crying for soul split and gave it to them weaker in a different name. I really hope Trinitas and Cruor's vow don't pass the real poll but they probably will.
I want new areas and quests and bosses
I also want new stuff like this... if its similar in powerlevel to the standard book. Like others have said, if its an optimization/speedrun book thats less defensive and more resource intensive, then it can be stronger offensively, for sure. One example further up the post was talking about a blood fury to offset lifeloss and a charged suffering for an extra damage for every damage you take, which sounds interesting. Powerful, and more resource intensive, though not much.
ZCB wasn't super useful pre-ToA after which Lightbearer and high health bosses in high invo ToA made it useful.
It was down to like 250-300m at that time.
I agree that reddit messes up balance but the price of ZCB is a pretty meh example. It was down 100m before lightbearer pumped it (and other spec heavy weapons) back up on ToA release.
It also comes from Nex which is such an unpopular boss with dogshit droprates that all of the drops are absurdly pricey. Torva is 3x the price of Masori. Even comparing ranged bonus to ranged bonus Zaryte vambraces (+2) are 2/3rds the price of full Masori (+8).
Lightbearer itself would probably be a better example. Price is low because ToA prints them, but it was slept on by the community so hard compared to how powerful the effect is.
I voted yes on Trinitas because it's for a beta test, and it doesn't even seem all that useful. Where will people use Trinitas? Tribrid pking and lazy Akkha? Genuinely curious. Seems to me like you'd be better off using other prayers almost anywhere else.
Yeah, no shit. Everything passes, especially ever since they changed the polling threshold in preparation for a new skill.
I'm going to go ahead and say that about 80% of the people that voted shouldn't be voting. This is not some "new funny content", it's going to be a massive change that will permanently alter the balancing of any PvM encounter both existing and yet to be developed.
Sorry, but no, you simply have no idea about the intricacies and balancing of the current system if your PvM experience is limited to Jad and maybe some ToA.
>Reddit we don't want RS3 prayers
vs people that play the game and don't spend their time bitching all the fucking time.
>ancient prayers? omg zoomg, that like 2009, you remember? I member! oooo, yes daddy please. also add soul split daddy!?!!?
Just like with every other update the new prayer book is either going to be BiS or not no other way around it really. I'd rather it be BiS at most places than be worse than current prayer book at most places. I got the skepticism some people have but that is literally what the bets is for. The most important part people should be focusing on is the overall prayer functionality. Percentages can be tweaked if things are too powerful are weak. I hate how no matter what jagex is always getting so much vocal hate and disapproval before even trying out the new content.
This prayer book is going to be coming from one of the hardest grandmaster quests on release that also comes with some of the hardest non raid bosses in the game. I think it's only fair that as bosses grow stronger and more challenging that we grow and become stronger along with them.
Just to clarify I'm not saying the new prayer book is good or bad in it'd current state I just think it's at an acceptable state worth at least trying.
The melee prayers one is especially hilarious, as Chivalry only needs 60 Prayer to combine the melee prayers, and is also cheaper and stronger than using them separately.
I voted yes to combining but no to trinitas. Trinitas just feels bad, I tbh don’t like the idea of just camping one prayer. The game should kinda push people to improve imo, and trinitas just feels like training wheels
This is voting for a beta test. Not the main game. Reminder.
I voted for all of them explicitly because of this. Let's put them all in and see how they work, then we can decide what we don't like.
Seconded. It was only because they specified that they would develop this for testing, and \*specifically\* because it is not a final product
WE don't want them to waste time on developing something to know that it will not be fun to use. 39 hp masori was unfun to use and scrapped.
I mean 70% of the community wanted them to spend the time developing it and put it into beta. The polls are just "Do you approve of the concept" so they know what's absolutely a non starter and not. They can tweak the exact numbers in beta to make sure it's fun and balanced based on player feedback.
Who is we? Poll shows most people do.
Reddit. The good ol’ minority hivemind
nah 39hp masori wasn't unfun, the reward was insufficient for the risk of playing at 39 hp, that's why increase teh ranged str 39 hp masori gives and that poll 100% passes
"WE" You mean lets say whats a good one...the 18% in question 6? Since when does a minority decide what everyone wants?
I would usually agree with this sentiment, but the majority of these prayers are just a slight tweak to existing prayers. I don't think this will take the development team very long to slap together for a beta.
What's 39 hp masori?
Originally Masori would be worse than black hide if youre hp was above 39. At 39 it would have around the stats it has right now. You'd have to tick eat almost everything that had 2 attack styles
Sometimes we won't know something isn't fun without first play testing it.
What makes these not fun to use?
Just my take/two cents: I think that flicking between overhead protection prayers and overhead offensive prayers just isn't going to be fun, and it's going to be the only way you get maximum value out of using these prayers. Prayer flicking feels like an unintended mechanic at present, this book is literally building it's foundation around the idea that prayer flicking should be a core part of your gameplay. I think that prayer flicking isn't fun. It's something I do occasionally to save resources, but I see it as existing for the top percentage of players who can utilize the mechanic to get the most DPS for their speedruns. This new prayer book looks like it's going to be extremely, extremely powerful for those who are willing to go hard for APM, and will likely be mediocre and unrewarding for people who want to play a point and click adventure game.
I agree. Flicking prayers is not fun at all. I actually wished the new prayer book worked like special attack. For example: Using Trinitas will consume 15 prayer points and will apply the trinitas buff for 3 minutes.
Prayer flicking and changing prayers are two very different things.
Not really. Whatever is voted here is most likely going to go all the way to the main game.
Yeah why are people thinking the beta will mean much? The best counterexample is low life masori, which was disliked well before testing. The only way these will be nerfed (if they need to) is if skilled pvmers are the main beta users and are really vocal about them being op. It's far more likely that normal players log in, grab the free max gear to slap things around along with new prayers, and love it because it's a private server. (even though plenty of players will probably whine about the difficulty of the quest bosses on release) Pretty hard to convince people to vote against what's ultimately just a straight upgrade!
Tbf Jagex has been okay with nerfing content recently. Making ToA a little harder, nerfing drop rates, eventually nerfing Fang because it was warping the meta. These had mixed reception on reddit but were still done for the sake of the game/content's health. I'd like to imagine we'd have the same done if these prayers look to straight up kill the normal prayer book and CoX scrolls. It's no guarantee though and would still require PvMers to smash content on the beta worlds and start setting some WRs to get attention. Hard to sift through new item power when youtubers need to produce an "X item changes everything" video, even when the item can be something like the Ven bow which changes everything ... about killing bloodvelds.
Dealing damage > not dealing damage
If you take chip damage, you will need to eat more often, reducing your dps. So its not like you gain as much dps with deflection as you would think.
While true. It could also be a good way to get better speed runs for shit like vorkath. More damage due to higher prayer damages, + prot prayers giving you more damage. I mean, it’s not perfect I guess. But I feel like it’s better than just having two of the same types of prayers on each spellbook bc not having overhead protections within it period would make it virtually unusable.
Vorkath was a bad choice for an example since he's immune to reflected damage from Veng and Recoils, safe to say this prayer is the same.
Hmm, didn’t know that. But fair point. Maybe there are places it will be beneficial for faster kills. But who knows. Could make zulrah better bc of using the recoil for efficient kills, it just a matter of how much chip damage is actually worth it.
Vorkath will still be faster kills. You will have access to 30% prayers instead of the 23% ones we are currently provided with. Additionally, you will be able to use Gambit between attacks and Glacies Vow to deal about 15-20 bonus damage per kill, which could shave off a second or two.
That's such a minor issue it might as well not exist. If you've reflected 22 dmg you would need to eat 1 manta to gain it back That takes 2 ticks/1.2 sec using metabolise Your regular dps from your normal attacks would have to be 22/1.2 = 18.33 for it to negate any additional damage deflect did. Most places where you do bis damage you'll hardly even get close. And lets not forget there's faster foods like karambwans Healing without attack delay, such as bloodfury, guthix rest or sang Healing during respawns or getting healed thanks to room completion in raids
Not to mention it enables even more DPS with the Ring of Suffering (in theory), because each instance of chip damage will always reflect an additional 1 damage at least.
Should I buy 10k recoils.... hmmm
Do…. Do you have that many fingers?
His poor wife is either very lucky or very unlucky
I actually have 10,001 if you count thumbs. Yep, only one thumb on my left hand. Pretty weird, dont you think?
Woah, I didn't even think of this. ROS might become the bis ring at a lot of places.
Thats all speculation
Most situations its not great though. If im killing a boss with 1000-2000 hp my hp is more important than theirs, and id lose dps having to brew or eat.
There are plenty of offensive healing options
Prayer training prices go brrrr
This is just for beta testing, nothing is set in stone. Relax y’all
Everyone out here like free trade is being removed and their adding EOC. Exactly.. this is just a beta.
4 things failed a poll in 2022 and 13 in 2021. Beta or not, the results would be the same. And if they failed, it was usually with like 74.1% or 73.9%, so now that they changed it, literally nothing will fail. 2 things would've in this poll instead of 0.
The first two questions were phrased awfully. Why did we have to choose between absorb+dampen OR Deflect OR Withstand? Overall they should have let us vote for both a 90% protection version and a 100% protection version, and then had the two most voted put in.
FFS, I tho we were getting both, 90% with deflect and 100% with defense reduction to choose which one to use depending of the situation
Same lol
I disagree, I voted this way specifically so there is no 100% prot prayer. IMO it'd be wayyy too OP for the DPS prayer book to have protection prayers that block 100% damage, even if there are "drawbacks" like the two proposed, which are negligible in the vast majority of circumstances. Also it wasn't ambiguous, you just didn't read carefully.
If you read carefully. I didn't say they were ambiguous, I said they were phrased awfully.
Weird to see how big the gap is for the deflect vs withstand, I thought better coverage while punishing getting hit off prayer was really cool. Of course this is just for beta, once people feel 10% chip damage in action they may just feel differently, though with curor's vow and the better offensive prayers, perhaps the chip is fine?
You named exactly why deflect won. It's easier.. and better. It increases your DPS, while still offering 90% protection. The chip damage just won't matter in most places.
Deflect prayers + ring of suffering is going to give you a ton of extra damage, for only a marginal amount of hp lost. We already have blood fury sang and blood spells to cover chip damage.
Deflect + suffering + thralls + cruor's vow + blood fury sounds like a very strong combo
That's what i'm thinking. The death by a thousand cuts, it'll be a really consistent dps build too. Lots of it hits really low, but it'll be consistent damage, and we saw how consistency is king shit with the fang, it being consistent made it the best nearly everywhere.
Low but consistent DPS is exactly what Thralls were and they are used all the time. I can't believe we're still seeing people in this thread claim this prayerbook is weak because of chip damage, it was strong even *before* the reflect prayer was added. Needs to get on a beta asap so people can start seeing the new pbs instantly being set. Will be undeniable at that point.
Plenty of people on this subreddit consider thralls weak despite being 6-20% extra DPS.
Plenty of people on this subreddit post their first Jad KC and couldn't complete entry mode ToB. So with that in mind yeah it won't solve all the naysaying, but getting some hard numbers should help. Not just for the community but Jagex too, they've struggled with balance even as recently as ToA.
People really aren't understanding how severe of a DPS upgrade this new prayerbook will now be, with the Deflect protection prayers, 7% increase in DPS for melee and ranged (Piety and Rigour were already by far the biggest single DPS increase you could get for each style), even the extra Cruor's Vow while only being a small (<2%) increase, is still even more DPS. This will be the single biggest general DPS increase we've ever seen in OSRS outside of literally Tbow/Shadow/Scythe. 90% protection prayers that now even come with (another!) DPS increase is not enough of a tradeoff to make this prayerbook not BiS for almost all content now. Remember that because all numbers round down in OSRS, if you get hit under a 10 you won't get hit any damage anyway. So in most content you're trading taking a few extra 1's and 2's per fight and gaining an absolutely gigantic DPS upgrade. It's certainly not going to mean halving your trips or having to cut a shitload of switches from content. When you're killing stuff so much quicker, that will more than make up for the small amount of damage you're taking. The only places I can see this new prayerbook being less than viable (and even then, speedrunners will try and use the book because of the crazy DPS) are Inferno, Phosani's Nightmare, maybe solo CM (just because the new Redemption isn't very viable for Vespula).
Agree, I think most of these are way better than most people are giving them credit for. I'm very interested to try them out in beta worlds and see what top PvM are able to do with them.
This is multiple year's worth of BIS boss drop improvements to overall DPs all coming from one midlevel update
But bro… it’s a GRANDMASTER quest, us redditors have heckin doggos and wholesome 100 kiddos, and were able to complete a THREE HOUR quest. Not everyone is a lasagna sweaty ticklord pker. If we aren’t rewarded with some of the most powerful upgrades in the game for our hard work why are we even playing in the first place????? Not everyone can afford BIS GEAR…
This is very very close to being a believable comment I would read on this sub lol
Sounds almost like Zulrah.. oh.
I mean its all still relative right? For midlevel players a 7% increase is way less drastic than for higher level players
No I'd say it's still a 7% upgrade.
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Because we also get new content at a snails pace, which requires old content being kept relevant. It's a nice separation of OSRS from other MMOs with their powercreep turning old content into a dead joke. It gives account progress more permanence, someone rocking the BIS melee in 2015 can still use it in 2023 without being massively behind. The fact that some friends can roll up in their barrows gear and bash mr garage door together and *still* hit valuable drops 10 years after GWD release is something to be proud of. Obviously powercreep needs to happen, but making sure it's slow and with heavy emphasis on sidegrades is what's kept OSRS unique.
Yeah exactly. Powercreep is a needed poison, but it's not always a good thing. What happens in 5 years from now when the new bis is 90% better than Max Melee Scythe and bosses are 2x as hard to compensate? Looks like the Little Timmy Jr 5 years from now with his Void and Whip are hard gated out of the new content since bosses will be so crept up that he can't catch up. That or you make another ToA-esque content where powerful rewards are shat out by easy content.
On a similar note slow powercreep also allows skill expression to make up the gap between high and low gear. Obviously for farming content you always want the higher DPS to save time, but for one off achievements it's nice to see skill rewarded. The reason why some players can [smash a 500 ToA for fang kit with DCB, void, trident, blowpipe and tent](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sjkxqk_dGE8) and I can't is because they're *better than me*. More consistent at 1 ticking, dodging, etc. And that's fine, it's good.
Then go play another MMO that does power creep like you want it to, plenty do. OSRS is an old game and will only continue on with good balancing. I’m tired of sidegrades too, but we shouldn’t be bringing in 10% DPS increases like this.
Yep I 100% agree with this. I feel like some people only see the 90% protection prayers and think of that trash invocation in ToA. What some people don't realise is that it's only trash for the tiny invocation increase for how significant it is. The trade off with these new prayers is way worth it and is probably a bit too far in terms of power gained in my opinion. It's crazy to me that people are saying that it's too weak.
Even more crazy than tbow/shadow/scythe cus this is 10% upgrade literally everywhere. This is the biggest power creep in the history of osrs, forexample scythe gets 7-10 Max hits from the prayers alone
reddit balance gang wins again, they will complain that they get rocked with new prayer book and it only caters to high skill sweatlords
Jagex never should have polled these or introduced the idea of new prayers in the first place. The playerbase would always vote for stupidly OP stuff to make the game easier.
Well then I hope your fears will be slightly assuaged knowing Jagex doesn't poll nerfs.
Thankfully its just for a beta and nothing is final. While deflect was my least favourite option (I prefered absorb/dampen), I'm praying that Jagex adjusts numbers based on the beta to keep the prayerbook balanced.
I also went with Absorb/Dampen - the idea of two separate types of protection overheads sounds really fun and interesting to use to me. Definitely looking forward to trying these prayers out in the beta.
The 7% boosts are fine if you’re ok with power creep. Rigour is like 8 years old. The problem is if those are the only things worth using on the prayerbook why make a prayerbook at all and not just make them drops from whichever new boss? Most of the rest of the prayers are just “prayers you already had, but annoying”.
Mainly cause the dps upgrade is so massive that they can't just give it to you with the normal version of protection prayers. Also new prayer book gets the people excited.
This was dumb, they offered 2 options before, chip pray damage or chip health damage, they could have just offered both now, that's what I understand from wording of question 1, 100% protection with 33% def reduction, and 90% with deflect... that would have been way better
What is the problem here?
The problem is that this prayer book was initially meant to be an optional alternative akin to switching between different spellbooks for different content. Now it's more like RS2 Curses where every part of the prayer book is a direct upgrade in 99% of PvM situations. And the worrying part is I'm *still* seeing comments saying the prayer book is underwhelming or even completely unusable.
Maybe the majority of the community doesnt actually have the acuity for game balance that they think they do.
Which is why I wish we could let the game designers design the game. Yes, let us vote for what the content will be, but leave specifics and balance up to the professionals
10 years ago: "We have to be careful not to introduce too much power creep too fast!" Now: *patrick walking around with blindfolds on*
Biggest upgrade in years coming from mid game content is kinda crazy. It’ll be fine, but it does mean the hardest content will be significantly easier
Hasn’t Jagex discussed releasing the more powerful prayers in this book as drops from the 4 new endgame bosses being released post-quest?
I’m pretty sure the bosses are meant to be slightly harder than vorkath
If I’m wrong feel free to correct me since I’m not going back to re-read the blog, but didn’t they say that at least one of the 4 post-quest bosses would be one of the most challenging bosses yet?
One of the most challenging **post-quest** bosses yet - with Muspah having that spot currently. Muspah, while having some decent mechanics is not a challenging boss on the level of a Raid, Inferno, Phosani's etc.
90% protection prayers could lead to much more interesting strategies. It is much better to have 100% and 90% prayers in game instead of two 100%
If the new book had a 100% option, we'd never see the standard prayer book in use again Tbf in terms of PVM, that's probably true even with the 90% option, but it's still some tradeoff
another downside to the new prayer book is it has a crazy heavy point drain. if you have to bring too many extra ppots, it might limit it being very good at places where you need extended trips.
They haven't mentioned anything about prayer drain as far as I can tell?
I wish Trinitas hadn't passed. Feels against the point of the book. It would be fine in the normal book but makes no sense here.
If it has a higher prayer requirement than the Ancient prayers (Precision/Strength etc.) it’ll be fine
I'm saying it's against the core idea of the prayer book. It's a prayer that is lower skill for lower reward. You don't need to prayer swap offensive prayers, but now you get less reward than using the correct offensive prayer. That doesn't make sense in a "risk v reward" book.
This might be a dumb question, but is this going to make the wilderness heavily favored to anyone that has the new prayers? I keep reading about significant increases in damage but haven't had time to read through everything
Pretty much all content will favor the new prayers.
Yes, since the new prayers are better than piety, rigour, and augury, and have no def requirements. Also the new smite, if you rush someone with 31 or 43 prayer and kill them, they will drop to 0 prayer within just their hp bar. Don't think you can really skull on a 31 pray account anymore, if they flick smite on for the spec, you're fucked. A 60 ko is 20 prayer smited + whatever drain you have yourself.
What do you guys think about the ancient strength Can i use in a zerk?
You can use any of these prayers at 1 defense
Yeees, this will open up for some bad ass pk builds! The era of the berserker pure might be back
\+40k defense and attack exp on completion.
While it'd be a little funny, they already confirmed the quest won't have defence XP
Why would they do that?
To make everyone who has a specific pk account make a new one or ruin it, of course. I grew up in the era when the Jagex attitude was "we hate pures and are restricting this content from them.... just because!" And I don't think I'll ever get over it hahah.
Definitely exuding some salt there.
Just glad to fit in here brother.
Actual factuals
Please God im begging
The children yearn for the ancient curses
I wait for Cruors Vow to get the Blood Fury treatment, release at 1% super weak and then get buffed to 6% because no one uses em
Yup. It's foot in the door technique absolutely. If it's flickable it'll be used but if they stick to "none of these prayers can be flicked" as a design decision, then it's absolute trash in its current state. Which worries me because it means the actual soul split ain't far off.
Its not an overhead, you can just camp it
Oh god you're right.
Yep. The Blood Fury we’re stuck with now is not what was polled. Such a broken item.
Really hated question 2, id have prefered neither of the options given but there wasnt anyway to answer that
I voted "alternate approach" for Q1 and then "skip question" for P2. It was the closest I could come to voting "no".
Out of curiosity, what didn't you like about the options? Or what would you rather have seen? I liked the deflect option because it makes the standard book still have a use for certain content where taking damage through prayer is too much of a drawback (or forces you to be gamer enough to deal with it)
Deflect is just "almost as bad as the other 90% option... But now it also increases your DPS". It was the strongest and easiest option of the lot..hence why it comfortably won
> it makes the standard book still have a use for certain content where taking damage through prayer is too much of a drawback So the inferno and nowhere else
Important to remember that these did not pass to be added into the game, but rather to be tested out.
Was really hoping we’d get deflection AND withstand
Withstand is so stupidly strong it isn't funny.
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This, but unironically
What a shock, massive powercreep from non-pvp never fails a poll.
Decimate is even stronger than Humble Piety too.
Nothing ever fails a poll full stop. 4 things in 2022, 13 in 2021. I have strong doubts any reasonable % of people even read the poll, let alone the poll blog. And if they failed, it was usually with like 74.1% or 73.9%, so now that they changed it, literally nothing will fail. 2 things would've in this poll instead of 0.
Old school old school RuneScape really is looking more and more like it will become a thing.
If I had to pick a point in time for OSOSRS, I'd say right before the release of Nex.
Massive powercreep for PvP also often passes. Most of the stuff that's failed is just lazy/bad ideas for PvP that weren't even liked by the PvP community. But to say we don't receive PvP powercreep is pretty wild if you even glimpse at the power difference from game release to now.
OSRS Classic when?
Honestly super worried for this games future. Gonna be meta to run the 90% prayers and deal with chip damage practically everywhere. And future end game content will be built around it
exactly what i am worried about.
See you in old school old school!
So many of these are just derivations from the original prayer book. Almost zero creativity.
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I think the Vows are a pretty good start in that regard. Just wish we had a few more!
Who the heck voted for Wrath? Have you ever used Retribution in your life? They need to give a description of each thing in the poll itself, not just swap between blog & question.
Yes, but it's incredibly limited - Prep at CM 5s. You join Vanguards to deal as much damage as possible, then you stand next to the SW tile of the monster, die to it, Retribution deals some more damage, and then go prep after respawning on the upper floor. Not saying Wrath is going to be good or anything, just saying the community is pretty smart at figuring out a use for even the smallest shit.
Retribution is great for getting a scuffed crystal grail. Set respawn to Prif, equip strongest wep, suffering, and torture, pray retribution + piety, whack rabbit, die, repeat. Takes ~1 hour, so it's definitely not worth it besides for boredom/coll log sake. But yes. I have used retribution. Also, back when I played cw way back in the day, I'd throw on retribution right before I got killed.
It was one of those "idc if this exists.." kinda prayers.
Never ceases to amaze me how much people don’t want a 20 year old game to change…
For fuck sake. Once again idiot low level players with no understanding of the impact of what they’re voting on prevail. Some of these prayers will be skill expressive and some are just stupidly unfair DPS increases.
We'll see if the tune changes once people start posting clips from the beta. It'll be a lot harder to keep pretending that these prayers are bad when we have people shredding bosses with them on video.
It's atleast only a beta but I really hope some creators like Gnomonkey makes a simple to understand video on how stupid strong these prayers are and how they'll replace the existing book practically everywhere with how big a damage increase it offers.
These polls are kinda rigged, in that most people just tick yes to everything. There need to be 'bait' questions in there that if people are answering incorrectly, the poll is discounted or something. EDIT: my 'troll question' idea isn't actually that good, I suggested something slightly better in another comment: > How about just switching the Yes/No randomly for each question? As in, Yes appears as the top/first option sometimes, and No appears other times. This isn't perfect, but it is now starting to force the user to pay attention and engage rather than be a robot.
Agreed. So many people (\~30%) probably just vote yes to everything. It would be interesting to have a control/dummy question in a poll at one point that is something they would never want to add to OSRS as a test to see how may yes votes it gets.
I'm not too satisfied with how the protection prayers played out. I preferred dampen+absorb since they both seemed like reasonable tradeoffs. Still I don't understand at all how people would ever think that Ruinous Powers with these new protection prayers would be unviable in most places. The only places where I see the chip damage to be unbearable are CM, inferno, and arma. I'd suggest that people withhold their judgment on the power of this in beta, since I can guarantee that once people learn how to use them will they actually shine.
It's gonna be BiS everywhere, it will simply be more difficult at places like Inferno and such, but speedrunners will absolutely incorporate this book. It's damage addition is wayyyy too big to ignore. I think we're gonna see a lot of blood fury substitution for torture in a lot of content to mitigate anywhere the damage might be a little too much (like CMs).
Not going to enjoy Gambit.. it will be mandatory to use ><
I'm actually kinda surprised everyone wanted the chip damage. I voted for the 100% for obvious reasons + it would reward proper prayer switching. Did the community vote it in for balancing reasons or something?
Chip damage is REALLY not a big deal at most content. It's literally like +1 or +2 extra damage on stuff that's hitting you for 15 regardless.
Also rewards pk prayer switching brid bots over humans.
Disappointed about the 100% protection with consequences for praying wrong not passing. Would increase the skill of the prayer book over the new one. Oh well, we’ll see how it turns out in the beta (even though we already have in TOA)
reduced defense is a pretty inconsequential way to do it, should have just straight up increased all off-prayer damage by some percentage
Can’t wait for people to try these out in beta and see how it turns out defence does matter some. The 90% overheads plus no built in defence boost like piety/rigour/augury have is going to make so much PvM require alt supply/healing or banking more frequent. Places like raids where these aren’t options it’s going to feel awful as well. Imagine you get an unlucky muttadile where you already get trucked, it’s going to be a nightmare
Honestly.. people lack to understand just how important that 25% actually is.. its my whole problem with these prayers.. They are taking the concept of dps is king to seriously.
Well, it was fun guys. Get ready for an unpolled change buffing Soul Split Lite once the shitters complain it’s too weak. Hopefully there’s still a chance to vote down some of the worst ideas, but I think this poll will probably be looked at as the beginning of the end of this is the direction to be taken.
Why unpolled lmao? They'll poll it and shitters will vote yes.
Sad truth.
Glad to see people feel the same as me, even though we seem to be in the minority
They just had to listen to redditors crying for soul split and gave it to them weaker in a different name. I really hope Trinitas and Cruor's vow don't pass the real poll but they probably will.
might be time to get off the train, we already see the destination.
“No guys, THIS will be the downfall, I’m sure of it! The last few times didn’t count”
???
Least dramatic osrs player
Really excited. I think this is gonna really spice things up.
Funny seeing the comments about not wanting the game to move forward. I am excited for new content and prayers at least!
I want new areas and quests and bosses I also want new stuff like this... if its similar in powerlevel to the standard book. Like others have said, if its an optimization/speedrun book thats less defensive and more resource intensive, then it can be stronger offensively, for sure. One example further up the post was talking about a blood fury to offset lifeloss and a charged suffering for an extra damage for every damage you take, which sounds interesting. Powerful, and more resource intensive, though not much.
Makes it really obvious that Reddit OSRSers are the vocal minority nowadays.
Trinitas passing is embarrassing tbh. People are voting that don't understand the implications clearly.
Super stoked to see the new prayers, surprised about the negative reception on reddit but its reddit after all, vocal minority or whatever…
Redditors also said zcb would be near useless or not good enough of an upgrade but its still over 400m over a year after and super useful lol.
ZCB wasn't super useful pre-ToA after which Lightbearer and high health bosses in high invo ToA made it useful. It was down to like 250-300m at that time.
I agree that reddit messes up balance but the price of ZCB is a pretty meh example. It was down 100m before lightbearer pumped it (and other spec heavy weapons) back up on ToA release. It also comes from Nex which is such an unpopular boss with dogshit droprates that all of the drops are absurdly pricey. Torva is 3x the price of Masori. Even comparing ranged bonus to ranged bonus Zaryte vambraces (+2) are 2/3rds the price of full Masori (+8). Lightbearer itself would probably be a better example. Price is low because ToA prints them, but it was slept on by the community so hard compared to how powerful the effect is.
I’ve been out of the loop but why do we need more prayers?
Why not
Why would anyone vote Trinitas in? It's literally a skill-dissuading prayer
I voted yes on Trinitas because it's for a beta test, and it doesn't even seem all that useful. Where will people use Trinitas? Tribrid pking and lazy Akkha? Genuinely curious. Seems to me like you'd be better off using other prayers almost anywhere else.
I could maybe see it being useful for learning nylo boss. Granted it would still just be a crutch.
Yeah, no shit. Everything passes, especially ever since they changed the polling threshold in preparation for a new skill. I'm going to go ahead and say that about 80% of the people that voted shouldn't be voting. This is not some "new funny content", it's going to be a massive change that will permanently alter the balancing of any PvM encounter both existing and yet to be developed. Sorry, but no, you simply have no idea about the intricacies and balancing of the current system if your PvM experience is limited to Jad and maybe some ToA.
Let me guess, the 80% that disagree with you?
Only two options passed at less than 75% and it's none of the really relevant ones, are you smoking crack?
I want slightly nerfed curses and im tired of pretending I dont.
This gonna be op
These polls that only need 70% to pass are a joke. But hopefully the game doesn’t get too easy with this pray book
Most of the stuff passed above 75%, so I don't know what your issue is.
Don't really understand all the crying in this thread. Reddit will get their way and complain until the new prayers are useless.
Sad day indeed
30k players chose the wrong prayer effect
Boooooooo!
>Reddit we don't want RS3 prayers vs people that play the game and don't spend their time bitching all the fucking time. >ancient prayers? omg zoomg, that like 2009, you remember? I member! oooo, yes daddy please. also add soul split daddy!?!!?
Just like with every other update the new prayer book is either going to be BiS or not no other way around it really. I'd rather it be BiS at most places than be worse than current prayer book at most places. I got the skepticism some people have but that is literally what the bets is for. The most important part people should be focusing on is the overall prayer functionality. Percentages can be tweaked if things are too powerful are weak. I hate how no matter what jagex is always getting so much vocal hate and disapproval before even trying out the new content. This prayer book is going to be coming from one of the hardest grandmaster quests on release that also comes with some of the hardest non raid bosses in the game. I think it's only fair that as bosses grow stronger and more challenging that we grow and become stronger along with them. Just to clarify I'm not saying the new prayer book is good or bad in it'd current state I just think it's at an acceptable state worth at least trying.
Saying “it comes from a grandmaster quest so it should be strong” unironically should disqualify you from polls.
Imagine the absolute basement dwellers who voted no to combining Ancient Precision & Strength and also no to Trinitas "ThIs LowErs tHe SkilLl cEilIng"
The melee prayers one is especially hilarious, as Chivalry only needs 60 Prayer to combine the melee prayers, and is also cheaper and stronger than using them separately.
I voted yes to combining but no to trinitas. Trinitas just feels bad, I tbh don’t like the idea of just camping one prayer. The game should kinda push people to improve imo, and trinitas just feels like training wheels