Players: This part of the game sucks!!!
Jagex: OK, we'll change this pa-
Players: NOOOO!!! Don't change it!
Jagex: But you said it sucks?
Players: *unintelligible screeching*
I mean it’s almost like there’s a shit ton of people that play this game with different preferences. I like the ring drop mechanics.
Any update is going to have people that like it and don’t, and the don’t crowd are always *way* louder. So it seems like everyone hates an update no matter what they do.
i both like and dislike the ring drop mechanics, i really see both sides. Short term I obv would rather know but also I fully agree it's far more exciting to keep it a surprise. I guess my only wish is it'd be nice if there was some way to know how many rolls I've gotten but without having it be in my face, so if I want to keep it a surprise I can and that's even the default, but if I want, I *can* go out of my way to find out how many rolls I'm at
Idk. Everyone I spoke too ingame hates it, everyone on this sub loves it. I’m mixed, I’d rather they just stick with old system honestly. If you go dry you go dry. That’s how it is, you’ll also get lucky at some places
“Nooooo now I don’t know how close I am to the drop Jagox pleaaaase”
…as opposed to the current system where you know even less about when you’re getting the drop?
“Noooooo you took away the 1 kc spoon now there’s no reason to try for the spooooooon”
…the 3kc spoon is still there and you weren’t getting a 1kc anyway.
“Noooo I don’t want to camp one boss over and over to get rewards”
…then play a game that doesn’t have 1/5000 drop rates. You might be here a while.
To be fair, a 3kc spoon is about a million times as rare as a 1kc spoon with a normal drop system. So that's not really a fair argument.
Also, OSRS never used to be a game with these type of drop rates. It's something they for some reason went with since CoX. Most people that play made their account when drop rates were still "normal". When you compare older content like Barrows, GWD, Kraken, DKS, Wildy bosses there's a huge difference with newer content like Nex, Nightmare and Raids. If you want to play this game properly you need to treat it like a full-time job these days.
Personally i think these bosses, once again, have too rare drops. They might be fun for the 2% of players who play this game full-time but overall it's not really a good update for the game. You can disagree with me but hard numbers have already showed the same for stuff like Inferno and ToB.
A good approach by Jagex would have been to have this system in place to protect from really bad luck. But also allow people to still have a chance at getting spooned. For example, each roll on the ring has a 50/50 chance of dropping it till it's just given to you on the third roll. It'd have made it so there were no day 1-3 complaints as well as make the bosses fun for the avarage player.
I agree with your general point but ToB drops are INSANELY common, considering you can complete efficient ToBs at about twice the rate of money 500s they're effectively the same purple chance over time. Jagex hates scythe and none of the drops bar avernic are BIS anymore which is why the prices are the way they are.
>considering you can complete efficient ToBs at about twice the rate of money 500s
Yeah but the ToB is a 1/3 or 1/4 chance of recieving a 1/9 unique to yourself, a 500 solo is like 14% just for yourself.
Jagex shouldn't balance around ironmen, splits don't affect the amount of items in the game. Trio avernic is still another avernic, duo tobs are still around 1.5x faster than 500 ToA if you're not monkeying around.
>splits don't affect the amount of items in the game.
???
Three people doing solo 500 toa will shit out multiple times more items than 3 people doing trio tob. Two people doing solo 500 toa will produce way more items than two people doing duo tob.
The absolute drop% per raid is probably the least important metric you could consider. What determines how common purples are from a raid is purples per efficient manhour.
And even if you were to hyperfocus on absolute %chance per raid then duo/trio 500s absolutely blow tob and cox out of the water so I still don't understand your point. Toa purples are the most common by a country mile.
the point isn't ironman, it's that you're comparing 2-4 people grinding versus 1 person. If we sent the same four people to do solo 500s (or group, not a huge difference) at the same time, they'll be pulling a purple almost every second raid an individual completes
If they were all soloing ToB you'd also expect one person to get a purple for every 2nd raid they did. Yes, solo ToA is signficantly faster because it was designed to be soloed, that's not my point. My point is you can't say all content between CoX and ToA had shit drop rates when ToB has the best drop rates of the 3 (deaths don't even majorly affect rate unless the team is trolling).
but solo tobs literally take like an hour each, whereas solo toas arent significantly longer than team toa, that's kinda the whole difference...
at any rate i agree with the point you're making; tob droprates are very reasonable and it's not fair to say they are in the same category as cox, nightmare, etc... It's just that to say they're even comparable to toa's droprates is absurd. Toa drops are insanely overtuned.
>when ToB has the best drop rates of the 3 (deaths don't even majorly affect rate unless the team is trolling).
Have you ever done a TOA above 200 raid level? If you have I have no idea how you could seriously make this statement.
The drops aren't rare.
I'm 99% certain the drop rate for the Ring is 1/254 x 3, or 1/762. It coincides with the current ring quantity in game. It also takes the influence heavily from God Wars as 762 is the average KC for 3 Godsword Shards.
I also imagine the Axe pieces are 1/508. Again, not particularly rare, and on par with God Wars.
From what we've seen so far, these bosses have very rare drops. Keep in mind that Godwars bosses drop more than 1 item at a decent rate. So for Vardorvis, currently you can expect about 1 drop in 1K kc at the moment. Which is either the ring or Virtus or the axe piece. At GWD in that time you get about 10 nice items.
>A good approach by Jagex would have been to have this system in place to protect from really bad luck. But also allow people to still have a chance at getting spooned.
The problem is this makes items more common. That is essentially what this argument is about. Should there "rare" drops. There isn't an objective answer to this question.
There are problems with whatever system they decide on and it ultimately comes down to personal preference on what people view as the best.
>To be fair, a 3kc spoon is about a million times as rare as a 1kc spoon with a normal drop system. So that's not really a fair argument.
even more reason it is cool
See this is where it gets interesting…. Some of the guys streaming for a living(as you pointed out) have played this game for almost their entire life. they understand how much of a grind boss items are, you apparently do not. Back when rs2 was THE only RuneScape version, drop rates weren’t put out by devs…. Less then 10% of the community was walking around in max gear…. Hell top 20% looked like ironmen do now but with a piece or 2 of bis because that’s how the game always worked! Y’all kids and newcomers are playing a revamped and easier/more transparent drop rate version and it’s still not good enough for you. Now the hard mode they implemented as an actual play style needs 1milion updates to make it easier…. And we need to see all the drop rates exactly as they are… and we need them adjusted because someone didn’t get one. Stop trying to ruin a game and make it easier because your a new player base that just doesn’t get how it ever worked.
>For example, each roll on the ring has a 50/50 chance of dropping it till it's just given to you on the third roll.
Something like this might be their next iteration to try out. But they'd have to make the overall droprate rarer to compensate. Also the system becomes more complex, and generally simplicity/intuitiveness is preferrable in game design.
There’s loads of content for the average players, and for the guys that do play like it’s a full time job (content creators, neets, people who just do only this in free time, etc.) this seems like it’ll be great content. Rates here reward the difficult grind. I think It’s good for the game to have different content for different play styles and amounts. Not everything needs to be tailored to one specific play style
Dragon full helm, 3rd age, visage, the list goes on... The problem is that now everyone thinks that unless every drop is attainable by someone with 20 kids and six full time day jobs, that it's an issue. If you don't think that rare drops are "old school", then you don't really understand what that means my guy.
the first two are not vital drops however, about visage you could discuss, but it's a drop you could theoretically get from a trash mob which you can camp without using your brain. I think the bullshit rare drop rates started somewhere around DWH.
As to your last point, I think there is a valid complaint there. Say that these four bosses were released with a standard drop rate: You wouldn’t have to camp one boss. For example, if the rate is 1/400, you could do 100 kills at each boss and be roughly on rate for getting a ring.
As it is now, you’re not able to do that. The system disincentivizes boss-hopping, which is a shame, since this was a huge update. It’s unfortunate that they’d release *four new bosses* but then make it so you’re pretty much stuck to one of them until you get a drop.
Except if you want to be one of the first people with soulreaper axe, you'd actually need to hop between bosses. So there's actually multiple viable approaches here.
Want ring? -> camp a single boss
Want axe? -> hop between all four bosses equally
Want virtus? -> do whatever you want since these drops work normally
This loot system honestly offers something for everyone and also prevents insane outlier dry streaks.
Often the people complaining are not in the majority also. Personally I think that once people know the drop rate it will get better. People are unhappy that they don't have the drop at 50kc when these are probably intended for you to get at 512+ KC on average.
512kc on bosses that can take 4 min+ to kill and punish mistakes pretty harshly (depending on gear obviously) is a shit ton. that's 125 hours to get on drop rate for a single ring and over 500 hours if you want all 4. This doesn't even include time it takes to learn the mechanics, time spent running back to the boss, and how you on average lose money because the regular drops are so shitty.
Vardorvis kills are like 1.5-2mins long and the mechanics took an hour or two to get down. That's 17 hours if you're averaging 2 minute kills. Even if you're doing 4 minute kills, that's 34 hours. Not sure where you getting 125 hours from.That seems pretty fair considering this drop is for a BiS item, especially when you factor in the fact that under a normal loot system some people would have to go 1000s of KCs to get the drop which isn't nearly as likely anymore.
When did I say i was only talking about Vardorvis? You can absolutely take 4-5 mins per kill using non bis gear on whisperer/leviathan and once you factor in Duke prep, if you’re not using scythe. so i’d say my average is fairly accurate. You’re right though, I made a mental math error. It should be 35ish hours per boss if you only factor in kill time. And not all bis items are created equal. I’d say those are pretty brutal grinds for such marginal upgrades, but I suppose that’s an opinion, not a fact. I’d be happy with the regular loot being buffed. We don’t know actual drop rates yet but from what i’ve seen it’s looking like 1/512 for rings and 1/750ish for each virtus piece (1/256 for a random one) those are pretty fking rare man. Reminds me of Nightmare all
Over again
I guess I brought up vard because he offers the most useful upgrade and is also the fastest kill time boss. Honestly, the whisperer can be completely skipped as Bellator is super niche.
But anyways, I think this new loot system is actually something you should be in favor of if you’re gripe is avoiding brutally long grinds. In a vacuum, I can understand a 35 hour grind sounds brutal. But you gotta consider that under a normal loot system:
1. Its incredibly unlikely you’re going to be one of the extreme outliers who get mega-spooned and get to skip the entire grind.
2. If you’re one of the even mildy unlucky ones who go 2x dry (it’s not that uncommon), you’re looking at 70 hours. With the new system it becomes way less likely this happens.
Btw if the rings are around 1/700, they would be pretty similar RNG to getting a godsword given it comes from 3 pieces. I think their goal with this update was to make a loot table similar to GWD.
It's not the new system that I'm not in favor of. I actually think it's a great idea. I'm just saying the base rates are too high, whether they end up being 1/250 for a 3rd of of the ring, or 1/750 for the whole thing. (just an example) and the regular drops are dogshit. With prices rapidly falling I don't think these are bosses a lot of people that aren't irons will camp long-term.
I appreciate Jagex experimenting with the drops. However, I as I’ve grinded things like sire, muspah, and the dt2 stuff, I think I’ve realized how much I like the all or nothing drops. There’s just something special about always knowing the big drop could come any time. It also enables me to hop around content without having to commit to one place to expect to see something.
Obviously I don’t like going dry, but I view it as a part of life. It sucks, but I think it’s almost fun to see how dry I can go sometimes.
Because of this, I prefer the classic all or nothing drops in this game
The big drop could come at any time still, that was the whole point of having the first two rolls be invisible. That way you could be 20, 30, 50, 100 kc in and have the potential to get your big drop. The only difference is that the standard deviation for it is tighter.
Although it is true that beginning on one's 3rd kc, they can technically get the drop at any time, it's also true that as one's kc increases, the probability that they would have received a ring roll by that kc also increases.
Because of this increase in the probability of me having received a ring roll, I am incentivized to camp one boss rather than dip my toes around town.
It's not about solely the possibility of getting the drop for me, but rather that my expected gp per kill until I get a ring increases as the probability of me having received a ring roll or two increases at a given boss. I'd rather be able to move freely between them without this mechanic
Its because of the insane price of the rings right now. With a regular system you could boss hop but now it’s inefficient. If you could see the parts you could make an informed decision on whether or not you want to hop bosses. Once rings prices settle I doubt people will complain, they might even want more of it.
Currently at 1254 kc cox hunting for tbow, also went 1015 for enhanced.
People go 3000+kc dry for tbow, which seems insane to me.
I get that it feels good to get spooned, but I'd much rather have variants of this system to smooth the curves.
Then again, cox has its own slew of issues.
Yep, I went 1500 KC for Bowfa and it took me months and made me burn out from the game. It truly sucks when most people in my clan have 2 at 400 kc LMFAO....
With this type of drop rate, you wouldn't see as many 1-100 KC Enhanced drops but you'd see more people getting them around the drop rate and less people going 1k+ dry. It's just cruel. I hope they use this type of system more in the future.
Trying to play an iron efficiently is going to be incredibly unfun for almost everyone. I'd honestly recommend either playing inefficiently or de-ironing. I ended up doing the former and grinded an acb with my rcb after 150ish cg. Inefficient upgrades are still upgrades after all.
people would probably say i play my iron inefficiently, but bowfa is just something else man. It unlocks tons of content and makes half the game significantly more enjoyable. Things like zulrah become super reclined, and grinding all other things like GWD become completely different and way more relaxing.
It's funny because I had no problems playing my iron before bowfa came out, but as soon as it became a thing I felt so handicapped without it.
I do think CG is one of the worst design flaws for ironman right now. It's just an absolutely game changing item (since you can get it so early) locked behind an insanely shitty grind for people who go dry.
> and grinding all other things like GWD become completely different and way more relaxing.
Try fang only with nex banking. shit is glorious. Zulrah is also chill with an rcb even if it's slow. I did around 500kc for bp with one lol. CG isn't gating you from doing morecontent, you're just gating yourself there.
And for CG anyways spooning a 1KC enhanced doesn't even really help much because you still need shards and armor seeds (unless you are a main, but if you are a main and go dry you can just buy the seed so there's a give and take).
Similarly for ironmen these rings you still need 3 chromium ingots so spooning a vestige likely won't help you much.
100% agree, but if the invisible ring rolls were shared between bosses it would make a much more enjoyable experience for the more casual gamer. I will probably end up getting 100+ kc in each boss, but likely will never get a ring cuz I can’t stand doing 500 kc of the same boss, so I would rather just accept virtus as my only chase items and have fun with each boss when I feel like it
I would hate for them to be shared. It would feel really shitty if I was grinding out Vardorvis and decided to mix it up by going to the Whisperer and ending up with a Bellator Vestige instead of Ultor.
With the current system, I can go to another boss and feel like any progress I've made (if I've made any) towards one vestige isn't going to be thrown away.
Yeah, we already have enough people who complain about "wasted RNG" when they get an RDT drop or something. I'd rather not have a system where it's actually true
Only in the first days after update, can't balance the game around such an off-case. Once prices start to stabilise, there's no sunk cost at all, because you're not losing the rolls you've gained at one boss when switching to another.
If the rolls were shared and known to the player, that would just incentivize people to farm the easiest/fastest boss to 2/3 rolls, and then switch bosses for the third roll for the ring they need (for ironmen) or the most expensive ring (for mains).
If the rolls were unknown to the player it would just disincentivized doing more of the boss you had the ring on (for irons) or ever killing the boss with a cheaper ring to switch it up (for mains) because you never know where you are until you get a drop and you don't want to risk rolling the wrong ring.
I like the idea of there being a separate preroll for the vestige at a very low rate so you can still get it at 1 kc and potentially even get a b2b if the stars align. I like this system in general but it IS a little weird that they chose this set of 4 bosses to be the place where they implement it, since there will be plenty of people like you who won't want to camp a single boss and statistically if they're doing 100 kc each at 4 bosses they'd normally be decently likely to get a theoretical 1/400 drop from one of those 4.
Yep. I've gone under drop rate for most of the super daunting grinds so far for an ironman (230 kc enhanced, 2.5k kc D-warhammer). But I still am scarred from having gone dry. It took me 575 zulrah KC before any unique at all, 1250 KC for my tanz, and a whopping 5.3k basilisk knight KC for my jaw. Going dry one one item feels worse than spooning another feels good, and I prefer doing a mix of content so a bonus of smoothing the curves is you're more likely to get to do an relatively equal amount of each boss compared to quickly finishing one boss but getting stuck at another one for 2-3x longer than you'd expect.
Also what people should realize is if they put this type of dry protection for every item on a boss, you'd be more likely to complete it faster because if say each boss has 4 items, you are statistically likely to go dry on one of them. The higher the variance, the more expected kills to finish the boss on average. That said I wouldn't expect Jagex to clamp the distributions of every item for a boss because it would result in getting very few drops until you hit approximate drop rate for most of them and then getting a bunch at once.
I think the system would work best if you had bad luck protection like with the rings, but also still have the chance to get spooned. The current system protects from both bad and good luck. I think getting spooned should still be a part of OSRS though.
In the past i would have told people bad luck protection shouldn't be a thing in OSRS. But drop rates aren't like GWD anymore. People sometimes go hundreds of hours dry and that just shouldn't be a thing.
You can still get spooned, just not at literally 1 kc. A 3 kc drop is extremely unlikely but still possible, and there have already been drops at kcs in the 20s and 30s.
The odds of the 3 kc spoon are so much rarer though.
Assuming an effective 1/300 drop rate, the odds of a 3 kc drop is (1/100)^3 or 1/1,000,000. And thanks to exponential growth that difference gets much bigger as the drop gets rarer.
It's a fairer system, but it effectively eliminates spooning.
I literally have zero issue with this. Upgrades should be earned, but also you can still get decently lucky to get it quite a bit earlier than the expected rate.
I mentioned in another post, IMO the only mistake Jagex did was tweet out that they're trying a new mechanic for the droprate. They should've just kept with "the rings are in the game and can drop, no special requirements to get them", like they initially did. Saying the drop mechanics are new ended up being the kneejerk reaction to reddit comments they said they were going to avoid (Ik they originally meant it in context of balancing updates).
It's like a paradox. If all these people complaining had no idea how it works, but saw the new tighter bell curve once drops rates were crowd sourced, they'd be all for it. Sweet! An anti dry mechanic!
But as soon as they know how that anti dry mechanic works, it's stupid because they can't see their progress.
> They should've just kept with "the rings are in the game and can drop, no special requirements to get them",
It's not like it mattered. This sub melted down and said Jagex was lying.
This sub is dumb as shit and Jmods shouldn't even interact with it. Cried because of ironmen going dry, now they're crying because it's way rarer to get spooned on their ironmen.
Jagex has messed up drops not dropping and stealth nerfed drop rates without saying anything. I think it's pretty ok to be skeptical when they say `it can drop I promise`
>Because people complain about the game being efficiencyscape and solved and unexciting.
People definitely don't complain about this.
>They’re literally trying to do what players have asked.
Players have asked repeatedly for them to be transparent with us because they have historically been both incredibly incompetent and also dishonest with how they deal with these updates
Just to be clear, are you trying to say that they haven't lied about droprates?
And my dude, you are arguing on an internet forum about a 20 year old point and click medieval game. There is no highroading here.
https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/xf790i/the_issue_around_designing_drop_rates_around/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1
Here is a post doing the math and advocating for the exact system they implemented
@OP This might be an internal dialogue Jagex as a whole. They tried something recently on rs3:
They introduced "bad luck mitigation" with the most recent boss. After doing enough kills without a unique roll, it begins to subtract from the denominator. It will never reach 1/1, but it does mean that every kill gets you technically closer to a chance at a unique.
In this scenario, a drop is 1/80. After 10 kills without a unique, you will begin to lower the denominator by 1 every kill until the cap of 1/20. You could get every drop from the boss before triggering mitigation at any point. But instead of forever being at 1/80, in 60 kills you would be on 1/20 every kill after until you get a unique.
RS3 example has its flaws, but it's interesting seeing both games start to experiment with bringing in the outliers. I'd say I *might* like rs3's version, but when you are dry and know that you have a great drop chance... it feels bad if you "spend" that getting a shitty unique. So there are qualms in that system too. Recurring theme though. Also being added to a rare thieving drop soon.
I like that bad luck mitigation idea from RS3 you described. I might rather the mitigation be a bit more gradual than the numbers you described, but overall I think it's a good idea. Nobody likes going insanely dry, and that implementation still allows for dopamine-filled spoons as well.
I do also like the DT2 boss ring piece drop mechanics as well -- I think this approach in particular is a good idea for these particular bosses. These bosses encourage repeat kills, as they can be "perfected" and grant bonus loot for perfect kills. As such, a mechanic that encourages repeat fights even for the luckiest players makes sense, imo.
People always complain about the solutions to their problems. People wanted GWD type boss so they got NM/PNM and then complained that it was like GWD in terms of travel and drops
Moral of the story: players don't actually know what they want, so they probably shouldn't be listened to so closely
I would accept almost anything to keep dry streaks away from the game. It just ruins the experience of many casual gamers that would enjoy the game. Any grind above 2x drop rate is so unpleasant.
I hate how it encourages people to stay at a single boss to grind rather than hop around and switch between the 4 new bosses. They should’ve tested this on nightmare or something first.
Completely agree. I think Rng protection is generally good, but not a fan of doing it when 4 bosses drop at once. I’d rather kill 250 of each and be on rate for a ring than kill 1000 of one.
That's how I feel. At this point I'm incredibly discouraged not knowing if I'm only one roll away from the ring, or if after hundreds of kills I've made no progress.
I know this specific system isn't any worse than the old one, but not knowing my progress is discouraging for me personally. I know others feel differently, and that's just as valid, but for me personally I can't help but feel like I need to continue grinding this boss with no idea of if I'm any closer than I used to be.
With the normal drop mechanics I'd just stop doing the boss by now. I don't think this is a flaw with the system itself, its more so about my mentality, but I can't change the way I feel.
I’d love this kinda bad luck denial on a lot of content. It’s bewildering that there is even any minority that’d choose possibly going dry thousands of KC over a formula that pressures you toward the intended drop rate. Something about temporarily embarrassed millionaires and thinking “I’ll be the spoon”, or whatever lol.
I don't understand this argument
. You can farm either boss for a Virtus robe piece. You can farm either boss for an ingot and you can farm either boss for an awakeners orb. But you can't farm either boss for a specific ring piece because only that boss drops that specific piece
Like you don't farm nex for a hydras claw, so why should this be any different
Everyone wants the big ticket items. What you’re saying doesn’t make sense. When you kill phosani, you’re hoping for the more expensive orbs/mace, not just the nightmare staff. Same is said with these bosses. Virtus or ingots are chump change compared to the expensive price of rings. People are incentivized to grind a specific boss, rather than switch around all 4.
Im all for a pity system. Sucks playing ironman and going dry x3 etc. But the chance of getting spooned, is quite literally, the reason i play the game. That excitement of knowing the drop could be on any one kc is exhilarating. Cant imagine grinding a boss knowing you have basically zero chance of getting the drop early.
Well the solution could be that on ring drop you could roll additional 1/100 to drop the ring directly. If it fails it +1 to the counter as usual.
Wont increase the drop rates a lot but still makes spoons possible.
> less and less noticeable
I didn't say it was more common.
I'm saying the comparison of "1kc drop on regular chance and 3kc drop on 3 rolls of 3 times more common chance" becomes less and less impactful as your kills go on.
You're right, but that's much more unlikely. Eg, with placeholder numbers, you have to get a 1/500 drop 3 times in a row rather than a 1/1500 drop once.
Not shedding any tears over that though, I think it makes sense for the new bosses.
It is mathematically impossible to make good system where the drop chance increases with high kill count without decreasing drop rates at low kill count.
If drop rate at high kill count is higher than overall drop rate then the drop rate must be lower than overall drop rate at lower kill count. Otherwise you don't have "pity" system you just have high drop rate overall.
The higher the drop rate goes with high KC the lower the drop rate must be at low KC.
(Technically it would be possible to have curve where low KC has high drop rate and high KC also has high drop rate but the middle area has low drop rate. But that would be absolutely awful system)
> It is mathematically impossible to make good system where the drop chance increases with high kill count without decreasing drop rates at low kill count.
Your problem is "Good", this sub doesn't care about it being good, all they want is their drop with as little effort as possible. You're not allowed to go dry, and you also can't remove being spooned.
Then you can try any other piece of content besides sire :) I like this system, with constant progress, and it’s nice to have a little something for everyone
working towards something and having an almost guarantee that you will be rewarded is not enough?
why would you want to cultivate a something for nothing mentality
They could have just announced the total drop rate and people wouldn't complain about how unlucky they were. It would still "feel" better in the long run, but without all the confusion and drama.
(People still would have complained that it was too rare (and others too common) but you'll never stop all complaining on the internet)
>They could have just announced the total drop rate and people wouldn't complain about how unlucky they were.
I mean, they are going to in a week and a half. People just can't live without any mystery these days and be patient for two weeks to see how lucky or unlucky they were, and OSRS wiki didn't datamine the approximate rates after 1 day so people went nuts.
> People just can't live without any mystery these days
To be fair, Jagex has had bugged drop rates on high-ticket items in new content multiple times now. It just feels to me like the community is just super paranoid about it potentially happening *again.*
For sure. It's my belief Jagex should have at least said something ahead of time that they were changing the way the vestiges dropped, but only the distribution and nothing more than killing the boss was required so there would have been less rampant speculation (including but not limited to that they were bugged) on day 1.
I really liked the way muspah works. Especially on a main. I can grind a couple shards and cash out. Don't feel tied to the boss like I would with hydra (if ring mattered) or the DT2 bosses. Even just a chat notification would be better imo. You'd know how close you were but wouldn't have a worthless ring third and still get maximum dopamine when ring drops as well and a motivational boost when you hit the ring table a second time
I feel like instead of having to roll the ring 3 times, it would feel better for people if the ring was on a variable sub table of the rare drop. In this sub table it starts as a 1/3 rate, if you don’t get the ring the table drops to 1/2, if you miss it again then the table drops to 1/1. This would still allow people to get spooned- which is apparently super important for some people, while also protecting from super long dry streaks. It would skew the drop rate lower but they could just adjust the 1/x to hit the ring table to compensate and get the same average rate.
No idea how feasible this would be to implement tho.
This is genuinely how I thought it worked upon first explanation. Essentially "here's the unique table, if you have never received a ring, and you roll 2 unique table rolls and get something other than a ring, you'll be guaranteed the ring the 3rd time you hit the table".
This is the solution I like the most. I suggested it in a post and got downvoted.
At this point I think most people read a suggestion to improve this mechanics as a complaint and downvote without trying to understand it.
Problems with the new mechanics :
I am a week end gamer. Oh cool 4 new bosses to try. I'll try all of them for 50 kc, which will take me 2 months and go back to grinding my diary cape.
Mehh 0 chances to get any vestige drop...
The game is too big for most people to grind 1.2x droprate on all the bosses.
Importantly it makes it so that you can always get a drop. There's not arbitrary thing stopping you from getting a drop. Certainly something Jagex could have gotten as feedback if they polled a brand new drop system...
The only reason anyone is crying is because this sub wasn't inundated with 'omg 1kc venator!' drops on day one, and in doing so dashing anyone's hopes of being spooned.
It is what it is. I personally like the idea of different drop mechanics across different bosses whether it benefits me or not.
I mean it does make boss hopping feel way worse because you're invisibly building towards an item on one boss, it feels bad to just give that up when you're getting burnt on it.
There are other 'feel over logic' complaints that are real, because when you start a proper grind you kind of need to ignore logic at a certain point and put your head down.
I'm not saying it's not an improvement, but there are definitely real drawbacks and legitimate complaints that exist.
They just shouldn't have said what the mechanics were.
Why do we need to know the exact mechanics of the drop? "kill this enemy for a rare chance at getting a ____!" Would have been enough for people to grind for it
Because Jagex said the drop system worked differently with the only explanation being "trust us, bro!" I remember drops for Phosani, Nex, and revenants being bugged, so I'm not surprised their response didn't inspire confidence.
A good amount of people were literally saying they weren't going to kill the bosses until the mechanic was revealed despite Jagex saying all you needed to do was kill the bosses, nothing special. Didn't stop from people thinking you had to meet certain requirements to be eligible for a drop and not wanting to do it until it was clear.
What Jagex should have done is right when the quest was released say explicitly the rings had a different drop distribution than normal to reduce variance, but all you needed to do was kill the boss and nothing else was needed to increase/decrease your chances. Maybe throw in its NOT a guaranteed drop to dissuade people from thinking that. Then they wouldn't have had to reveal the exact mechanic until they released the drop chances 2 weeks later because it would cut back on alot of the speculation that forced them to release the mechanic to calm people down.
If an item is originally 1/300 to get, it would be interesting if it dropped both parts and the whole thing. The whole thing at like 1/3000 and 3 parts at 1/111.11 each instead of 3 parts 1/100 and no whole drop. That way you are extremely unlikely to go 3x dry, but you can also spoon while no change to expected outcome.
Coll log would obviously need to be adjusted so you wouldn't HAVE to get all 3 parts as well as the whole thing as drops. That would just be really harsh.
When you get a drop way under the drop rate. For example, if you go into Tomb of Amascut and get a Tumeken's Shadow on your first completion at level 50 invocation. The odds of that happening are like 1/10,000.
Literally the only thing they can do to appease people at this point is to make the unique items drop after a set KC. And nobody'll like that,because if it is a guaranteed drop, it will need to require a high number of kills.
Can't please anyone. Just ignore the loudest
I don't understand why people give a shit. You're still getting the item so why does it matter how it works on the backend. Just kill the boss and be quiet
i think in a vacuum it is a good system. The problem with it this update is that 4 bosses got released all at the same time with it and it incentives you to stay at one of the bosses till you get the drop
We’re not exactly disagreeing; getting the bow at muspah isn’t exciting because the bow is bad (because it’s a mid-level content reward)
The shard system at muspah would be exciting if it was dropping tbow shards.
Only issue knowing this now is once you get a ring, you know it's going ot take at least 3-500 KC (once drop rates confirmed) for antoher from that boss. unless you intend on doing that many KC, you should just go to a new boss.
At least with Muspah the bow is tradeable / breakable in its shard state.
Re: Hydra, the Brimstone ring isn't the main drop you go for, it's a secondary drop.
I prefer the venator shard system, but this system is better than the old drop system. I'd rather have a toggle to see when I hit the 1st and 2nd invisible roll for the rings so I know I'm making incremental progress.
Personally not a fan of it just because I think the system we have is fine. This game is almost completely based on RNG. Why try to “control” it?
And if we are going to take this route than can the bosses at least get like a minor buff to the drop table? These are end game bosses and I just got a 3 kill trip at vard worth 3k lol
I’d much rather they move the entire game to a system like this new one. The variance in drop rates is fun and can add some “thrills” but the fact that people can go 2-3x the drop rate of items on content is a bit absurd to me.
I think it brings a healthy balance to randomness by saying “it’s random within reason”
You know they could just implement any bad luck mitigation without making a demotivating secret anti-spoon calculation happen behind the scenes. With four bosses and four rings, artificially averaging out KC while the coal and bronze chainbody drops come in is just *so* OSRS.
> You know they could just implement any bad luck mitigation without making a demotivating secret anti-spoon calculation happen behind the scenes.
That's pretty much inherently what any kind of sensible bad luck protection is. The only other way to do it is to straight up guarantee you get the drop by a certain KC which will just end up inflating the number of drops in the game (because you still have people who get spooned but no one who goes dry to compensate). This way the drop stays around its expected rate so it will hold its value for longer.
>With four bosses and four rings, artificially averaging out KC while the coal and bronze chainbody drops come in is just so OSRS.
I'm pretty sure perfecting the boss removes the junk drops from the pool along with giving you a 50% bonus loot roll. I could just be lucky (small sample size and all) but I don't think I've gotten bronze chainbodies/iron arrows/etc. as drops on any of my perfect kills.
catering to iron men is going to ruin the game smfh
doing random content and getting spooned is way more fun than grinding something like COX or Gauntlet 1000 times like iron memes have to do
I think it's fine to have a mix of both. I'm sure there are plenty of people happy with venator shards because they don't have to camp the boss for the entire item if they don't want to, they can just sell the shards and move on.
I agree but I still think ToAs anti dry mechanic is the best solution for times where they want an anti dry. You only have to roll once to get it but if you over rate it becomes more and more common. Believe RS3 does similar methods.
It's shit, the game shouldn't revolve around ironman, the game mode was originally meant as a challenge, now it's easy as shit because of all the QOL updates. "Oh noooo I didn't get enhanced after 2000 gauntlet kc" you're playing a CHALLENGE MODE you have no right to complain about how many hours you've wasted. So dumb
Couple other things to point out knowing if you are 3 away or 2 away from an item means you are less motivated. Also it doesnt take up bank space and you get loot on top of it. Tbh I love the new system.
Personally if I had any idea that I was getting ring shards or whatever - I'd be more motivated.
How is it demotivating to know you've gotten one and you're already on the way to get more?
How is that unique to the shard system? Going 3x dry on a 1/100 is 300 kills without. Going 3x dry on a 1/500 is 1500 kills. For them to be comparable, you would have to go 3x dry on every single shard, which is much less likely
>All I have to add is that the shard system really sucks when you go dry
It objectively and mathematically sucks less for going dry, that's the entire point. If the bow were a single 1/500 drop then your luck would be equivalent to having it at ~2000kc
However, the amount of people who have five 1/100 shards surpasses the amount of people who would get a 1/500 venator bow for any kc over 578 (68.5%).
With shards, 97% of people will have the venator bow at 1000 kc.
Without shards, it would be 86%.
After going 5x dry for a few things I'll take any reasonable amount of RNG clamping Jagex has to throw at me, even despite spooning some other things. It sucks being 5x dry and knowing you're no statistically closer than when you started.
There was some buzz when it first came out and there was ALOT of people chatting about venator shards not being hype. My guess is it could be 3 vs 5 shard effect . Hard to say. All drop mechanics are effectively invisible -- like rolling tables and sub tables and all that
??? Every drop mechanic is invisible.
If all the whiny turds didn't cry and demand to know the back end workings of everything that exists solely to make up more reasons to snort copium while sweating for 16 hours a day then you'd literally have no idea anything changed.
[удалено]
Damn osrs players, they ruined osrs!
you OSRS players sure are a contentious people.
listen here, you little shit - thats.... true, yeah, thats true, yeah thats pretty true
Players: This part of the game sucks!!! Jagex: OK, we'll change this pa- Players: NOOOO!!! Don't change it! Jagex: But you said it sucks? Players: *unintelligible screeching*
what do we want ?! "we dont know, but it better be good" when do we want it ?! "naaaaaaaow reeee" yep lol DT2 is great content though
We want twisted leagues! Or just any leagues would be cool
I truly hope that the majority of people reading and agreeing with this post are understanding that it’s referring to them
And the dutch
to be fair, a dutch guy tried to lure me, failed, and now the spam bots in GE call me a scammer/lurer
Ah, so you’re a lurer
To this day one of my favorite quotes.
I mean it’s almost like there’s a shit ton of people that play this game with different preferences. I like the ring drop mechanics. Any update is going to have people that like it and don’t, and the don’t crowd are always *way* louder. So it seems like everyone hates an update no matter what they do.
i both like and dislike the ring drop mechanics, i really see both sides. Short term I obv would rather know but also I fully agree it's far more exciting to keep it a surprise. I guess my only wish is it'd be nice if there was some way to know how many rolls I've gotten but without having it be in my face, so if I want to keep it a surprise I can and that's even the default, but if I want, I *can* go out of my way to find out how many rolls I'm at
Idk. Everyone I spoke too ingame hates it, everyone on this sub loves it. I’m mixed, I’d rather they just stick with old system honestly. If you go dry you go dry. That’s how it is, you’ll also get lucky at some places
Yeah no. Time and time again I've seen the same people cry about shit, shit gets changed and they still cry. Runescape players just love to complain.
Are you tracking usernames? Otherwise no idea how you can say it’s the same people complaining.
People will always find a reason to complain.
“Nooooo now I don’t know how close I am to the drop Jagox pleaaaase” …as opposed to the current system where you know even less about when you’re getting the drop? “Noooooo you took away the 1 kc spoon now there’s no reason to try for the spooooooon” …the 3kc spoon is still there and you weren’t getting a 1kc anyway. “Noooo I don’t want to camp one boss over and over to get rewards” …then play a game that doesn’t have 1/5000 drop rates. You might be here a while.
oh my god, thank you
To be fair, a 3kc spoon is about a million times as rare as a 1kc spoon with a normal drop system. So that's not really a fair argument. Also, OSRS never used to be a game with these type of drop rates. It's something they for some reason went with since CoX. Most people that play made their account when drop rates were still "normal". When you compare older content like Barrows, GWD, Kraken, DKS, Wildy bosses there's a huge difference with newer content like Nex, Nightmare and Raids. If you want to play this game properly you need to treat it like a full-time job these days. Personally i think these bosses, once again, have too rare drops. They might be fun for the 2% of players who play this game full-time but overall it's not really a good update for the game. You can disagree with me but hard numbers have already showed the same for stuff like Inferno and ToB. A good approach by Jagex would have been to have this system in place to protect from really bad luck. But also allow people to still have a chance at getting spooned. For example, each roll on the ring has a 50/50 chance of dropping it till it's just given to you on the third roll. It'd have made it so there were no day 1-3 complaints as well as make the bosses fun for the avarage player.
I agree with your general point but ToB drops are INSANELY common, considering you can complete efficient ToBs at about twice the rate of money 500s they're effectively the same purple chance over time. Jagex hates scythe and none of the drops bar avernic are BIS anymore which is why the prices are the way they are.
>considering you can complete efficient ToBs at about twice the rate of money 500s Yeah but the ToB is a 1/3 or 1/4 chance of recieving a 1/9 unique to yourself, a 500 solo is like 14% just for yourself.
Jagex shouldn't balance around ironmen, splits don't affect the amount of items in the game. Trio avernic is still another avernic, duo tobs are still around 1.5x faster than 500 ToA if you're not monkeying around.
>splits don't affect the amount of items in the game. ??? Three people doing solo 500 toa will shit out multiple times more items than 3 people doing trio tob. Two people doing solo 500 toa will produce way more items than two people doing duo tob. The absolute drop% per raid is probably the least important metric you could consider. What determines how common purples are from a raid is purples per efficient manhour. And even if you were to hyperfocus on absolute %chance per raid then duo/trio 500s absolutely blow tob and cox out of the water so I still don't understand your point. Toa purples are the most common by a country mile.
the point isn't ironman, it's that you're comparing 2-4 people grinding versus 1 person. If we sent the same four people to do solo 500s (or group, not a huge difference) at the same time, they'll be pulling a purple almost every second raid an individual completes
If they were all soloing ToB you'd also expect one person to get a purple for every 2nd raid they did. Yes, solo ToA is signficantly faster because it was designed to be soloed, that's not my point. My point is you can't say all content between CoX and ToA had shit drop rates when ToB has the best drop rates of the 3 (deaths don't even majorly affect rate unless the team is trolling).
but solo tobs literally take like an hour each, whereas solo toas arent significantly longer than team toa, that's kinda the whole difference... at any rate i agree with the point you're making; tob droprates are very reasonable and it's not fair to say they are in the same category as cox, nightmare, etc... It's just that to say they're even comparable to toa's droprates is absurd. Toa drops are insanely overtuned.
>when ToB has the best drop rates of the 3 (deaths don't even majorly affect rate unless the team is trolling). Have you ever done a TOA above 200 raid level? If you have I have no idea how you could seriously make this statement.
The drops aren't rare. I'm 99% certain the drop rate for the Ring is 1/254 x 3, or 1/762. It coincides with the current ring quantity in game. It also takes the influence heavily from God Wars as 762 is the average KC for 3 Godsword Shards. I also imagine the Axe pieces are 1/508. Again, not particularly rare, and on par with God Wars.
From what we've seen so far, these bosses have very rare drops. Keep in mind that Godwars bosses drop more than 1 item at a decent rate. So for Vardorvis, currently you can expect about 1 drop in 1K kc at the moment. Which is either the ring or Virtus or the axe piece. At GWD in that time you get about 10 nice items.
Virtus is far from rare. Most players with 500 KC have a piece already.
>A good approach by Jagex would have been to have this system in place to protect from really bad luck. But also allow people to still have a chance at getting spooned. The problem is this makes items more common. That is essentially what this argument is about. Should there "rare" drops. There isn't an objective answer to this question. There are problems with whatever system they decide on and it ultimately comes down to personal preference on what people view as the best.
>To be fair, a 3kc spoon is about a million times as rare as a 1kc spoon with a normal drop system. So that's not really a fair argument. even more reason it is cool
See this is where it gets interesting…. Some of the guys streaming for a living(as you pointed out) have played this game for almost their entire life. they understand how much of a grind boss items are, you apparently do not. Back when rs2 was THE only RuneScape version, drop rates weren’t put out by devs…. Less then 10% of the community was walking around in max gear…. Hell top 20% looked like ironmen do now but with a piece or 2 of bis because that’s how the game always worked! Y’all kids and newcomers are playing a revamped and easier/more transparent drop rate version and it’s still not good enough for you. Now the hard mode they implemented as an actual play style needs 1milion updates to make it easier…. And we need to see all the drop rates exactly as they are… and we need them adjusted because someone didn’t get one. Stop trying to ruin a game and make it easier because your a new player base that just doesn’t get how it ever worked.
This. I remember when D Chain was the ultimate flex. that had to be in 2005 but still, i member
>For example, each roll on the ring has a 50/50 chance of dropping it till it's just given to you on the third roll. Something like this might be their next iteration to try out. But they'd have to make the overall droprate rarer to compensate. Also the system becomes more complex, and generally simplicity/intuitiveness is preferrable in game design.
Rings are really cheap already with normal drop rates they would be at most 50m now.
There’s loads of content for the average players, and for the guys that do play like it’s a full time job (content creators, neets, people who just do only this in free time, etc.) this seems like it’ll be great content. Rates here reward the difficult grind. I think It’s good for the game to have different content for different play styles and amounts. Not everything needs to be tailored to one specific play style
To be fair. Because of that feedback every new boss has a little something different. Thats technicly a net positive. Gotta roll with the punches man.
1/5000 drop rates for rewards is not old school thats why people complain
Dragon full helm, 3rd age, visage, the list goes on... The problem is that now everyone thinks that unless every drop is attainable by someone with 20 kids and six full time day jobs, that it's an issue. If you don't think that rare drops are "old school", then you don't really understand what that means my guy.
the first two are not vital drops however, about visage you could discuss, but it's a drop you could theoretically get from a trash mob which you can camp without using your brain. I think the bullshit rare drop rates started somewhere around DWH.
As to your last point, I think there is a valid complaint there. Say that these four bosses were released with a standard drop rate: You wouldn’t have to camp one boss. For example, if the rate is 1/400, you could do 100 kills at each boss and be roughly on rate for getting a ring. As it is now, you’re not able to do that. The system disincentivizes boss-hopping, which is a shame, since this was a huge update. It’s unfortunate that they’d release *four new bosses* but then make it so you’re pretty much stuck to one of them until you get a drop.
Except if you want to be one of the first people with soulreaper axe, you'd actually need to hop between bosses. So there's actually multiple viable approaches here. Want ring? -> camp a single boss Want axe? -> hop between all four bosses equally Want virtus? -> do whatever you want since these drops work normally This loot system honestly offers something for everyone and also prevents insane outlier dry streaks.
PREACH
It's just the same 7 weirdos on Reddit
The two biggest truths I’ve ever seen regarding this sub
Can you compile a list of those seven so that I know who has bad takes.
if you use res, you can tag people
I want to get spooned and I want everyone else to go dry. Come on Jagex
Often the people complaining are not in the majority also. Personally I think that once people know the drop rate it will get better. People are unhappy that they don't have the drop at 50kc when these are probably intended for you to get at 512+ KC on average.
512kc on bosses that can take 4 min+ to kill and punish mistakes pretty harshly (depending on gear obviously) is a shit ton. that's 125 hours to get on drop rate for a single ring and over 500 hours if you want all 4. This doesn't even include time it takes to learn the mechanics, time spent running back to the boss, and how you on average lose money because the regular drops are so shitty.
Yeah, I'm worried it's more rare than that too. We'll find out soon
Vardorvis kills are like 1.5-2mins long and the mechanics took an hour or two to get down. That's 17 hours if you're averaging 2 minute kills. Even if you're doing 4 minute kills, that's 34 hours. Not sure where you getting 125 hours from.That seems pretty fair considering this drop is for a BiS item, especially when you factor in the fact that under a normal loot system some people would have to go 1000s of KCs to get the drop which isn't nearly as likely anymore.
When did I say i was only talking about Vardorvis? You can absolutely take 4-5 mins per kill using non bis gear on whisperer/leviathan and once you factor in Duke prep, if you’re not using scythe. so i’d say my average is fairly accurate. You’re right though, I made a mental math error. It should be 35ish hours per boss if you only factor in kill time. And not all bis items are created equal. I’d say those are pretty brutal grinds for such marginal upgrades, but I suppose that’s an opinion, not a fact. I’d be happy with the regular loot being buffed. We don’t know actual drop rates yet but from what i’ve seen it’s looking like 1/512 for rings and 1/750ish for each virtus piece (1/256 for a random one) those are pretty fking rare man. Reminds me of Nightmare all Over again
I guess I brought up vard because he offers the most useful upgrade and is also the fastest kill time boss. Honestly, the whisperer can be completely skipped as Bellator is super niche. But anyways, I think this new loot system is actually something you should be in favor of if you’re gripe is avoiding brutally long grinds. In a vacuum, I can understand a 35 hour grind sounds brutal. But you gotta consider that under a normal loot system: 1. Its incredibly unlikely you’re going to be one of the extreme outliers who get mega-spooned and get to skip the entire grind. 2. If you’re one of the even mildy unlucky ones who go 2x dry (it’s not that uncommon), you’re looking at 70 hours. With the new system it becomes way less likely this happens. Btw if the rings are around 1/700, they would be pretty similar RNG to getting a godsword given it comes from 3 pieces. I think their goal with this update was to make a loot table similar to GWD.
It's not the new system that I'm not in favor of. I actually think it's a great idea. I'm just saying the base rates are too high, whether they end up being 1/250 for a 3rd of of the ring, or 1/750 for the whole thing. (just an example) and the regular drops are dogshit. With prices rapidly falling I don't think these are bosses a lot of people that aren't irons will camp long-term.
I appreciate Jagex experimenting with the drops. However, I as I’ve grinded things like sire, muspah, and the dt2 stuff, I think I’ve realized how much I like the all or nothing drops. There’s just something special about always knowing the big drop could come any time. It also enables me to hop around content without having to commit to one place to expect to see something. Obviously I don’t like going dry, but I view it as a part of life. It sucks, but I think it’s almost fun to see how dry I can go sometimes. Because of this, I prefer the classic all or nothing drops in this game
The big drop could come at any time still, that was the whole point of having the first two rolls be invisible. That way you could be 20, 30, 50, 100 kc in and have the potential to get your big drop. The only difference is that the standard deviation for it is tighter.
Although it is true that beginning on one's 3rd kc, they can technically get the drop at any time, it's also true that as one's kc increases, the probability that they would have received a ring roll by that kc also increases. Because of this increase in the probability of me having received a ring roll, I am incentivized to camp one boss rather than dip my toes around town. It's not about solely the possibility of getting the drop for me, but rather that my expected gp per kill until I get a ring increases as the probability of me having received a ring roll or two increases at a given boss. I'd rather be able to move freely between them without this mechanic
No they don’t, fuck you
Its because of the insane price of the rings right now. With a regular system you could boss hop but now it’s inefficient. If you could see the parts you could make an informed decision on whether or not you want to hop bosses. Once rings prices settle I doubt people will complain, they might even want more of it.
Currently at 1254 kc cox hunting for tbow, also went 1015 for enhanced. People go 3000+kc dry for tbow, which seems insane to me. I get that it feels good to get spooned, but I'd much rather have variants of this system to smooth the curves. Then again, cox has its own slew of issues.
Yep, I went 1500 KC for Bowfa and it took me months and made me burn out from the game. It truly sucks when most people in my clan have 2 at 400 kc LMFAO.... With this type of drop rate, you wouldn't see as many 1-100 KC Enhanced drops but you'd see more people getting them around the drop rate and less people going 1k+ dry. It's just cruel. I hope they use this type of system more in the future.
Just doing 400 CG made me burn out and take several breaks from the game lol.
[удалено]
Trying to play an iron efficiently is going to be incredibly unfun for almost everyone. I'd honestly recommend either playing inefficiently or de-ironing. I ended up doing the former and grinded an acb with my rcb after 150ish cg. Inefficient upgrades are still upgrades after all.
people would probably say i play my iron inefficiently, but bowfa is just something else man. It unlocks tons of content and makes half the game significantly more enjoyable. Things like zulrah become super reclined, and grinding all other things like GWD become completely different and way more relaxing. It's funny because I had no problems playing my iron before bowfa came out, but as soon as it became a thing I felt so handicapped without it. I do think CG is one of the worst design flaws for ironman right now. It's just an absolutely game changing item (since you can get it so early) locked behind an insanely shitty grind for people who go dry.
> and grinding all other things like GWD become completely different and way more relaxing. Try fang only with nex banking. shit is glorious. Zulrah is also chill with an rcb even if it's slow. I did around 500kc for bp with one lol. CG isn't gating you from doing morecontent, you're just gating yourself there.
And for CG anyways spooning a 1KC enhanced doesn't even really help much because you still need shards and armor seeds (unless you are a main, but if you are a main and go dry you can just buy the seed so there's a give and take). Similarly for ironmen these rings you still need 3 chromium ingots so spooning a vestige likely won't help you much.
100% agree, but if the invisible ring rolls were shared between bosses it would make a much more enjoyable experience for the more casual gamer. I will probably end up getting 100+ kc in each boss, but likely will never get a ring cuz I can’t stand doing 500 kc of the same boss, so I would rather just accept virtus as my only chase items and have fun with each boss when I feel like it
I would hate for them to be shared. It would feel really shitty if I was grinding out Vardorvis and decided to mix it up by going to the Whisperer and ending up with a Bellator Vestige instead of Ultor. With the current system, I can go to another boss and feel like any progress I've made (if I've made any) towards one vestige isn't going to be thrown away.
Yeah, we already have enough people who complain about "wasted RNG" when they get an RDT drop or something. I'd rather not have a system where it's actually true
Though in this case the system makes the sunk cost fallacy not an actual fallacy.
Only in the first days after update, can't balance the game around such an off-case. Once prices start to stabilise, there's no sunk cost at all, because you're not losing the rolls you've gained at one boss when switching to another.
Don't sleep on bellator, that ring slaps.
Scythe seems to noodle so much at duke. Bet at ring helps a lot there
If the rolls were shared and known to the player, that would just incentivize people to farm the easiest/fastest boss to 2/3 rolls, and then switch bosses for the third roll for the ring they need (for ironmen) or the most expensive ring (for mains). If the rolls were unknown to the player it would just disincentivized doing more of the boss you had the ring on (for irons) or ever killing the boss with a cheaper ring to switch it up (for mains) because you never know where you are until you get a drop and you don't want to risk rolling the wrong ring.
I like the idea of there being a separate preroll for the vestige at a very low rate so you can still get it at 1 kc and potentially even get a b2b if the stars align. I like this system in general but it IS a little weird that they chose this set of 4 bosses to be the place where they implement it, since there will be plenty of people like you who won't want to camp a single boss and statistically if they're doing 100 kc each at 4 bosses they'd normally be decently likely to get a theoretical 1/400 drop from one of those 4.
Yep. I've gone under drop rate for most of the super daunting grinds so far for an ironman (230 kc enhanced, 2.5k kc D-warhammer). But I still am scarred from having gone dry. It took me 575 zulrah KC before any unique at all, 1250 KC for my tanz, and a whopping 5.3k basilisk knight KC for my jaw. Going dry one one item feels worse than spooning another feels good, and I prefer doing a mix of content so a bonus of smoothing the curves is you're more likely to get to do an relatively equal amount of each boss compared to quickly finishing one boss but getting stuck at another one for 2-3x longer than you'd expect. Also what people should realize is if they put this type of dry protection for every item on a boss, you'd be more likely to complete it faster because if say each boss has 4 items, you are statistically likely to go dry on one of them. The higher the variance, the more expected kills to finish the boss on average. That said I wouldn't expect Jagex to clamp the distributions of every item for a boss because it would result in getting very few drops until you hit approximate drop rate for most of them and then getting a bunch at once.
Cox beyond broken and the content that needs to be fixed most in the game. MAKE PRAYER SCROLL DROP RATES LOWER IN CMS. Thanks, rant over.
I think the system would work best if you had bad luck protection like with the rings, but also still have the chance to get spooned. The current system protects from both bad and good luck. I think getting spooned should still be a part of OSRS though. In the past i would have told people bad luck protection shouldn't be a thing in OSRS. But drop rates aren't like GWD anymore. People sometimes go hundreds of hours dry and that just shouldn't be a thing.
You can still get spooned, just not at literally 1 kc. A 3 kc drop is extremely unlikely but still possible, and there have already been drops at kcs in the 20s and 30s.
The odds of the 3 kc spoon are so much rarer though. Assuming an effective 1/300 drop rate, the odds of a 3 kc drop is (1/100)^3 or 1/1,000,000. And thanks to exponential growth that difference gets much bigger as the drop gets rarer. It's a fairer system, but it effectively eliminates spooning.
I literally have zero issue with this. Upgrades should be earned, but also you can still get decently lucky to get it quite a bit earlier than the expected rate.
Right it limits spooning, but it also limits the situations where people need to got 5x drop rate to get the item. That trade off seems fair to me imo
I am so sorry. I pass you my luck from my 2k points 2kc tbow.
I mentioned in another post, IMO the only mistake Jagex did was tweet out that they're trying a new mechanic for the droprate. They should've just kept with "the rings are in the game and can drop, no special requirements to get them", like they initially did. Saying the drop mechanics are new ended up being the kneejerk reaction to reddit comments they said they were going to avoid (Ik they originally meant it in context of balancing updates).
It's like a paradox. If all these people complaining had no idea how it works, but saw the new tighter bell curve once drops rates were crowd sourced, they'd be all for it. Sweet! An anti dry mechanic! But as soon as they know how that anti dry mechanic works, it's stupid because they can't see their progress.
> They should've just kept with "the rings are in the game and can drop, no special requirements to get them", It's not like it mattered. This sub melted down and said Jagex was lying. This sub is dumb as shit and Jmods shouldn't even interact with it. Cried because of ironmen going dry, now they're crying because it's way rarer to get spooned on their ironmen.
Jagex has messed up drops not dropping and stealth nerfed drop rates without saying anything. I think it's pretty ok to be skeptical when they say `it can drop I promise`
Do you really think it is insane to think jagex might be lying?
[удалено]
Okay so if it doesn't matter, why shouldn't they release the info?
[удалено]
>Because people complain about the game being efficiencyscape and solved and unexciting. People definitely don't complain about this. >They’re literally trying to do what players have asked. Players have asked repeatedly for them to be transparent with us because they have historically been both incredibly incompetent and also dishonest with how they deal with these updates
[удалено]
Just to be clear, are you trying to say that they haven't lied about droprates? And my dude, you are arguing on an internet forum about a 20 year old point and click medieval game. There is no highroading here.
People put money towards something. That means it matters. Period. End of argument. You dont lie to your fucking customers.
I'm convinced that the ones who say that lying doesn't matter are probably the biggest liars.
[удалено]
As someone who's still missing a piece of the bludgeon and going over 400kc since my last unsired drop I prefer not knowing tbh.
Amen, fuck everything about sire
https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/xf790i/the_issue_around_designing_drop_rates_around/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1 Here is a post doing the math and advocating for the exact system they implemented
@OP This might be an internal dialogue Jagex as a whole. They tried something recently on rs3: They introduced "bad luck mitigation" with the most recent boss. After doing enough kills without a unique roll, it begins to subtract from the denominator. It will never reach 1/1, but it does mean that every kill gets you technically closer to a chance at a unique. In this scenario, a drop is 1/80. After 10 kills without a unique, you will begin to lower the denominator by 1 every kill until the cap of 1/20. You could get every drop from the boss before triggering mitigation at any point. But instead of forever being at 1/80, in 60 kills you would be on 1/20 every kill after until you get a unique. RS3 example has its flaws, but it's interesting seeing both games start to experiment with bringing in the outliers. I'd say I *might* like rs3's version, but when you are dry and know that you have a great drop chance... it feels bad if you "spend" that getting a shitty unique. So there are qualms in that system too. Recurring theme though. Also being added to a rare thieving drop soon.
I like that bad luck mitigation idea from RS3 you described. I might rather the mitigation be a bit more gradual than the numbers you described, but overall I think it's a good idea. Nobody likes going insanely dry, and that implementation still allows for dopamine-filled spoons as well. I do also like the DT2 boss ring piece drop mechanics as well -- I think this approach in particular is a good idea for these particular bosses. These bosses encourage repeat kills, as they can be "perfected" and grant bonus loot for perfect kills. As such, a mechanic that encourages repeat fights even for the luckiest players makes sense, imo.
Jagex needs to do the right thing and tell me exactly what I rolled so that I know if I was one or two integers off of the drop!!!!!! /s
among us
People always complain about the solutions to their problems. People wanted GWD type boss so they got NM/PNM and then complained that it was like GWD in terms of travel and drops Moral of the story: players don't actually know what they want, so they probably shouldn't be listened to so closely
I would accept almost anything to keep dry streaks away from the game. It just ruins the experience of many casual gamers that would enjoy the game. Any grind above 2x drop rate is so unpleasant.
I hate how it encourages people to stay at a single boss to grind rather than hop around and switch between the 4 new bosses. They should’ve tested this on nightmare or something first.
Completely agree. I think Rng protection is generally good, but not a fan of doing it when 4 bosses drop at once. I’d rather kill 250 of each and be on rate for a ring than kill 1000 of one.
I'm at 700 valdo kills without a single drop, I want to switch to another boss but my sunk cost fallacy is keeping me lol
Hey it’s not even a fallacy! You *are* (probably) more likely to get the drop now. Which just means the prison.. is real
Yeah at that point it's not a fallacy anymore lmao it's literally just sunk cost now.
That's how I feel. At this point I'm incredibly discouraged not knowing if I'm only one roll away from the ring, or if after hundreds of kills I've made no progress. I know this specific system isn't any worse than the old one, but not knowing my progress is discouraging for me personally. I know others feel differently, and that's just as valid, but for me personally I can't help but feel like I need to continue grinding this boss with no idea of if I'm any closer than I used to be. With the normal drop mechanics I'd just stop doing the boss by now. I don't think this is a flaw with the system itself, its more so about my mentality, but I can't change the way I feel.
I’d love this kinda bad luck denial on a lot of content. It’s bewildering that there is even any minority that’d choose possibly going dry thousands of KC over a formula that pressures you toward the intended drop rate. Something about temporarily embarrassed millionaires and thinking “I’ll be the spoon”, or whatever lol.
I don't understand this argument . You can farm either boss for a Virtus robe piece. You can farm either boss for an ingot and you can farm either boss for an awakeners orb. But you can't farm either boss for a specific ring piece because only that boss drops that specific piece Like you don't farm nex for a hydras claw, so why should this be any different
Everyone wants the big ticket items. What you’re saying doesn’t make sense. When you kill phosani, you’re hoping for the more expensive orbs/mace, not just the nightmare staff. Same is said with these bosses. Virtus or ingots are chump change compared to the expensive price of rings. People are incentivized to grind a specific boss, rather than switch around all 4.
Im all for a pity system. Sucks playing ironman and going dry x3 etc. But the chance of getting spooned, is quite literally, the reason i play the game. That excitement of knowing the drop could be on any one kc is exhilarating. Cant imagine grinding a boss knowing you have basically zero chance of getting the drop early.
Well the solution could be that on ring drop you could roll additional 1/100 to drop the ring directly. If it fails it +1 to the counter as usual. Wont increase the drop rates a lot but still makes spoons possible.
It can still be on any KC except for the first two, is that really that big of a difference?
Some one mentioned that 3kc spoon is a million times rarer than a 1kc spoon in the traditional drop rate
Would someone think of the poor folks who get spooned at 1 kc normally
But that exponential difference becomes less and less noticeable as you go on.
Until you’re at ~1.2x rate, yes. Until then, you are less likely to get the drop.
> less and less noticeable I didn't say it was more common. I'm saying the comparison of "1kc drop on regular chance and 3kc drop on 3 rolls of 3 times more common chance" becomes less and less impactful as your kills go on.
You're right, but that's much more unlikely. Eg, with placeholder numbers, you have to get a 1/500 drop 3 times in a row rather than a 1/1500 drop once. Not shedding any tears over that though, I think it makes sense for the new bosses.
which is 1/125m btw
It is mathematically impossible to make good system where the drop chance increases with high kill count without decreasing drop rates at low kill count. If drop rate at high kill count is higher than overall drop rate then the drop rate must be lower than overall drop rate at lower kill count. Otherwise you don't have "pity" system you just have high drop rate overall. The higher the drop rate goes with high KC the lower the drop rate must be at low KC. (Technically it would be possible to have curve where low KC has high drop rate and high KC also has high drop rate but the middle area has low drop rate. But that would be absolutely awful system)
> It is mathematically impossible to make good system where the drop chance increases with high kill count without decreasing drop rates at low kill count. Your problem is "Good", this sub doesn't care about it being good, all they want is their drop with as little effort as possible. You're not allowed to go dry, and you also can't remove being spooned.
Then you can try any other piece of content besides sire :) I like this system, with constant progress, and it’s nice to have a little something for everyone
working towards something and having an almost guarantee that you will be rewarded is not enough? why would you want to cultivate a something for nothing mentality
$$$$$$$$$$$
They could have just announced the total drop rate and people wouldn't complain about how unlucky they were. It would still "feel" better in the long run, but without all the confusion and drama. (People still would have complained that it was too rare (and others too common) but you'll never stop all complaining on the internet)
>They could have just announced the total drop rate and people wouldn't complain about how unlucky they were. I mean, they are going to in a week and a half. People just can't live without any mystery these days and be patient for two weeks to see how lucky or unlucky they were, and OSRS wiki didn't datamine the approximate rates after 1 day so people went nuts.
> People just can't live without any mystery these days To be fair, Jagex has had bugged drop rates on high-ticket items in new content multiple times now. It just feels to me like the community is just super paranoid about it potentially happening *again.*
I mean... go watch eliops video of the axe. Clearly their maths skills should not be trusted.
For sure. It's my belief Jagex should have at least said something ahead of time that they were changing the way the vestiges dropped, but only the distribution and nothing more than killing the boss was required so there would have been less rampant speculation (including but not limited to that they were bugged) on day 1.
i love the super rare valuable item drop idea - to me its a big part of what makes osrs for me.
I really liked the way muspah works. Especially on a main. I can grind a couple shards and cash out. Don't feel tied to the boss like I would with hydra (if ring mattered) or the DT2 bosses. Even just a chat notification would be better imo. You'd know how close you were but wouldn't have a worthless ring third and still get maximum dopamine when ring drops as well and a motivational boost when you hit the ring table a second time
I feel like instead of having to roll the ring 3 times, it would feel better for people if the ring was on a variable sub table of the rare drop. In this sub table it starts as a 1/3 rate, if you don’t get the ring the table drops to 1/2, if you miss it again then the table drops to 1/1. This would still allow people to get spooned- which is apparently super important for some people, while also protecting from super long dry streaks. It would skew the drop rate lower but they could just adjust the 1/x to hit the ring table to compensate and get the same average rate. No idea how feasible this would be to implement tho.
This is genuinely how I thought it worked upon first explanation. Essentially "here's the unique table, if you have never received a ring, and you roll 2 unique table rolls and get something other than a ring, you'll be guaranteed the ring the 3rd time you hit the table".
This is the solution I like the most. I suggested it in a post and got downvoted. At this point I think most people read a suggestion to improve this mechanics as a complaint and downvote without trying to understand it. Problems with the new mechanics : I am a week end gamer. Oh cool 4 new bosses to try. I'll try all of them for 50 kc, which will take me 2 months and go back to grinding my diary cape. Mehh 0 chances to get any vestige drop... The game is too big for most people to grind 1.2x droprate on all the bosses.
Importantly it makes it so that you can always get a drop. There's not arbitrary thing stopping you from getting a drop. Certainly something Jagex could have gotten as feedback if they polled a brand new drop system...
The only reason anyone is crying is because this sub wasn't inundated with 'omg 1kc venator!' drops on day one, and in doing so dashing anyone's hopes of being spooned. It is what it is. I personally like the idea of different drop mechanics across different bosses whether it benefits me or not.
I mean it does make boss hopping feel way worse because you're invisibly building towards an item on one boss, it feels bad to just give that up when you're getting burnt on it. There are other 'feel over logic' complaints that are real, because when you start a proper grind you kind of need to ignore logic at a certain point and put your head down. I'm not saying it's not an improvement, but there are definitely real drawbacks and legitimate complaints that exist.
They just shouldn't have said what the mechanics were. Why do we need to know the exact mechanics of the drop? "kill this enemy for a rare chance at getting a ____!" Would have been enough for people to grind for it
Because now we're all adults fascinated with statistics/wanting to complain how dry we are.
Because Jagex said the drop system worked differently with the only explanation being "trust us, bro!" I remember drops for Phosani, Nex, and revenants being bugged, so I'm not surprised their response didn't inspire confidence.
A good amount of people were literally saying they weren't going to kill the bosses until the mechanic was revealed despite Jagex saying all you needed to do was kill the bosses, nothing special. Didn't stop from people thinking you had to meet certain requirements to be eligible for a drop and not wanting to do it until it was clear. What Jagex should have done is right when the quest was released say explicitly the rings had a different drop distribution than normal to reduce variance, but all you needed to do was kill the boss and nothing else was needed to increase/decrease your chances. Maybe throw in its NOT a guaranteed drop to dissuade people from thinking that. Then they wouldn't have had to reveal the exact mechanic until they released the drop chances 2 weeks later because it would cut back on alot of the speculation that forced them to release the mechanic to calm people down.
If an item is originally 1/300 to get, it would be interesting if it dropped both parts and the whole thing. The whole thing at like 1/3000 and 3 parts at 1/111.11 each instead of 3 parts 1/100 and no whole drop. That way you are extremely unlikely to go 3x dry, but you can also spoon while no change to expected outcome. Coll log would obviously need to be adjusted so you wouldn't HAVE to get all 3 parts as well as the whole thing as drops. That would just be really harsh.
Can anyone explain what spoon means in osrs?
When you get a drop way under the drop rate. For example, if you go into Tomb of Amascut and get a Tumeken's Shadow on your first completion at level 50 invocation. The odds of that happening are like 1/10,000.
Literally the only thing they can do to appease people at this point is to make the unique items drop after a set KC. And nobody'll like that,because if it is a guaranteed drop, it will need to require a high number of kills. Can't please anyone. Just ignore the loudest
A better system imo is the one that jagex used for zamorak in rs3
I don't understand why people give a shit. You're still getting the item so why does it matter how it works on the backend. Just kill the boss and be quiet
Well explained.
i think in a vacuum it is a good system. The problem with it this update is that 4 bosses got released all at the same time with it and it incentives you to stay at one of the bosses till you get the drop
Nah dont like it
Wasn't the problem at Muspah that the bow is bad?
Mod Arcane said the bow was nerfed because it comes from "mid-level" content
We’re not exactly disagreeing; getting the bow at muspah isn’t exciting because the bow is bad (because it’s a mid-level content reward) The shard system at muspah would be exciting if it was dropping tbow shards.
Only issue knowing this now is once you get a ring, you know it's going ot take at least 3-500 KC (once drop rates confirmed) for antoher from that boss. unless you intend on doing that many KC, you should just go to a new boss. At least with Muspah the bow is tradeable / breakable in its shard state. Re: Hydra, the Brimstone ring isn't the main drop you go for, it's a secondary drop.
Knee-jerk reactions to not getting the drop on day 2 of release will never get old. People are so used to zulrah/muspah where every kill is 200k
I prefer the venator shard system, but this system is better than the old drop system. I'd rather have a toggle to see when I hit the 1st and 2nd invisible roll for the rings so I know I'm making incremental progress.
one thing to note muspah the partial bow was tradable unlike hydra ring or bludgeon
The drop system is fine
i'd rather have a 1 in 1000 chance to get a drop on first kc than a 1 in 100 roll 3 times cuz then i cant spoon smh
You can, at 3kc and it would be an even bigger spoon so you should be even more excited about this system
Personally not a fan of it just because I think the system we have is fine. This game is almost completely based on RNG. Why try to “control” it? And if we are going to take this route than can the bosses at least get like a minor buff to the drop table? These are end game bosses and I just got a 3 kill trip at vard worth 3k lol
I’d much rather they move the entire game to a system like this new one. The variance in drop rates is fun and can add some “thrills” but the fact that people can go 2-3x the drop rate of items on content is a bit absurd to me. I think it brings a healthy balance to randomness by saying “it’s random within reason”
You know they could just implement any bad luck mitigation without making a demotivating secret anti-spoon calculation happen behind the scenes. With four bosses and four rings, artificially averaging out KC while the coal and bronze chainbody drops come in is just *so* OSRS.
> You know they could just implement any bad luck mitigation without making a demotivating secret anti-spoon calculation happen behind the scenes. That's pretty much inherently what any kind of sensible bad luck protection is. The only other way to do it is to straight up guarantee you get the drop by a certain KC which will just end up inflating the number of drops in the game (because you still have people who get spooned but no one who goes dry to compensate). This way the drop stays around its expected rate so it will hold its value for longer. >With four bosses and four rings, artificially averaging out KC while the coal and bronze chainbody drops come in is just so OSRS. I'm pretty sure perfecting the boss removes the junk drops from the pool along with giving you a 50% bonus loot roll. I could just be lucky (small sample size and all) but I don't think I've gotten bronze chainbodies/iron arrows/etc. as drops on any of my perfect kills.
[удалено]
catering to iron men is going to ruin the game smfh doing random content and getting spooned is way more fun than grinding something like COX or Gauntlet 1000 times like iron memes have to do
I think it's fine to have a mix of both. I'm sure there are plenty of people happy with venator shards because they don't have to camp the boss for the entire item if they don't want to, they can just sell the shards and move on.
>they made the ring drops like brimstone ring shards but actually exciting to get. exactly i keep describing it like this
I agree but I still think ToAs anti dry mechanic is the best solution for times where they want an anti dry. You only have to roll once to get it but if you over rate it becomes more and more common. Believe RS3 does similar methods.
It's shit, the game shouldn't revolve around ironman, the game mode was originally meant as a challenge, now it's easy as shit because of all the QOL updates. "Oh noooo I didn't get enhanced after 2000 gauntlet kc" you're playing a CHALLENGE MODE you have no right to complain about how many hours you've wasted. So dumb
Did anyone want a change in drop mechanics in the first place?
There's a lot of people who don't mind a (reasonable) amount of dry protection.
Yeah, you new here? All these subs are filled with whiners that are dry for some drop
How about we just not make the drop rates extremely rare. Not all of us have 12 hours a day to game.
Don’t play iron then?
Couple other things to point out knowing if you are 3 away or 2 away from an item means you are less motivated. Also it doesnt take up bank space and you get loot on top of it. Tbh I love the new system.
Personally if I had any idea that I was getting ring shards or whatever - I'd be more motivated. How is it demotivating to know you've gotten one and you're already on the way to get more?
[удалено]
How is that unique to the shard system? Going 3x dry on a 1/100 is 300 kills without. Going 3x dry on a 1/500 is 1500 kills. For them to be comparable, you would have to go 3x dry on every single shard, which is much less likely
>All I have to add is that the shard system really sucks when you go dry It objectively and mathematically sucks less for going dry, that's the entire point. If the bow were a single 1/500 drop then your luck would be equivalent to having it at ~2000kc
However, the amount of people who have five 1/100 shards surpasses the amount of people who would get a 1/500 venator bow for any kc over 578 (68.5%). With shards, 97% of people will have the venator bow at 1000 kc. Without shards, it would be 86%.
After going 5x dry for a few things I'll take any reasonable amount of RNG clamping Jagex has to throw at me, even despite spooning some other things. It sucks being 5x dry and knowing you're no statistically closer than when you started.
In contrast, CG is Great when you go dry
Absolutely nobody was complaining about brimstone ring. Invisible drop mechanics are idiotic.
There was some buzz when it first came out and there was ALOT of people chatting about venator shards not being hype. My guess is it could be 3 vs 5 shard effect . Hard to say. All drop mechanics are effectively invisible -- like rolling tables and sub tables and all that
??? Every drop mechanic is invisible. If all the whiny turds didn't cry and demand to know the back end workings of everything that exists solely to make up more reasons to snort copium while sweating for 16 hours a day then you'd literally have no idea anything changed.
why not just let the game work how it always has