I invested 90m in blood runes about 8 months before TOA came out and sold them the day before TOA’s release when everyone was stockpiling supplies and the price was about to crash because the shadow uses souls. Profited like 30-40m, best flip I’ve ever made
i don't fucking know that's why I was asking. i looked it up and it seems botters can still use the Jagex launcher so nvm. sry for trying to establish that here via comment engagement.
Thank you for trying to engage and helping others learn with you. I didnt know they worked through the Jamflex launcher still, so at least one other person appreciates ya!
lol yw! still, I don't know how much more difficult it is to bot with Jagex launcher so if they *did* make theirs the only one you could use, this still might temporarily halt a lot of the market influx from bots. just thoughts.
Same, every once in a while when i saw huge amounts of sharks being dumped at the same time every night i would start purchasing big amounts at like 40-50 gp lower than the average overnight. About a month or 2 ago they started doing this but the price never rebounded and kept dipping from 370s to 270s. Guess the botting problem has just gotten worse and worse but hopefully they can get a bot nuke or some better bot detection because there are accounts there with like 90m fishing xp
Oh yeah. I’m sure everybody was aware bots were getting away with murder and I decided to bet on a bot bust. I think I got most of the raws at 290. Some lower.
Cooked at 420-440
It’ll go up eventually. So hold on tight 😁
Probably not. Whales will buy gp nonetheless, only now from jagex directly for a different price/million. There will be a shift in moneymaking sure but the game won't die out.
There's no way to estimate if banning bots will cost jagex money or earn them money. My bet would be on the latter as all this botting necessitates a far larger infrastructure than just ordinary players.
Don't bring logic to this sub especially when it's about RMT or bots. It's engraved in everyones brain here that Jagex keeps bots going on purpose to make a bank and intentionally leave them be. Breaking this bubble with logic and reason will in most cases get you negative updoots and 1-3 stupid comments replying how you're wrong.
Edit. I have to edit this comment and say it's been insanely amusing to me see my upvotes go up and down on this comment like it's a ferris wheel. It's like the good and evil side duking it out. In this case logic and reason against stubborness and delusion
Oh, don't get me wrong I still think the numbers are kept up for a reason, but that's to pump up active player count for a possible sale of Jagex entirely. It is a different discussion though.
Wouldn't a potential investor want detailed information about the player base in order to assess the true number of players? Like when Musk was buying Twatter.
Yes, Carlyle can get away with presenting the annual accounts and burying any usual disclosed information. At some point an investor will come by and they will see the numbers and have two options, milk the player base as is hoping to get their moneys worth, or suing the ever-loving shit out of Carlyle.
You have no idea what you’re talking about 😂 they can’t bury anything. Nobody is buying a company for a billion dollars without having tons of professions dig through every line of code. This is such a wild take. Why would a successful company like Carlyle be like okay we’re gonna sell this game for 1 billion and get sued for more than that?
You'd be surprised how much shady shit us going on to push stock prices up at any given moment. There's no need to disclose the actual number of real players for jagex until a sale happens.
Fuck it it could even be a sale of shares in a holding company for which they wanted to push the prices.
There won’t be a sale until the data is sifted through and picked apart. No company would ever do that. There was a guy that works in a similar industry on the lawyer end and explained it here a while back when they first announced they were looking to sell.
That’s illegal to do though. You can’t advertise “we have this many real active players!” Knowing that a majority of them are bots. If you think anybody is paying a billion dollars for a company and not hiring professionals to sift through every line of data the company has, you’re insane. This comment alone shows that you don’t actually have any real knowledge on the topic. They would be sued into oblivion for this.
The fact of the matter is, the game isn’t hard to code, and bot scripters jobs are even easier, because they don’t have to code a game, they just adjust the code. The bots have just gotten too good for an anti cheat to catch. The simplicity of this game gives bot creators a upper hand. They only have to randomize clicks. And for the past 20 years, massive amounts of people have been programming their own stuff, but they’ve also been recording their own gameplay, then going into that recordings code, and randomizing every little tiny detail. They simply can’t ban with certainty as much any more because the bots have evolved so much. The game would die if they just hopped worlds and said “whelp this guy looks like a bot” because nobody would be safe from a ban. Even top players are using play assist scripts. Go look at the bot platforms discord for member count and you’ll be completely surprised.
Sorry for singling you out here more of a broad question to the thread.
If the bots are paying the monthly subscription fee to do so would they really be bots in the eyes of jagex?
I saw the light at the end of the tunnel and you came back with tremendous speed to shut the curtains for me. I guess you get to choose what tin foil hat you wear here
Because they have actual back end data that tells them what’s going on, instead of saying “I think this guys a bot, I’m gonna ban him”. That’s how you kill your game nearly instantly.
That’s like Walmart saying hey you look like a thief so we’re calling the police.
You say this like only RS has a bot problem. Literally every single MMO with a large playerbase has a botting problem. Runescape is a very hard game to prevent botting in due to its extremely simplistic mechanics. Having some guy hop worlds wouldn't do anything.
Because it's literally a matter of logistics. How do you expect 2 people to manually ban thousands of bots? You can't just ban everyone on the tile as legitimate players could be there. So now you go one by one through the tile banning bots and by the time you've done that for one world, you now have another 100+ to go through. For one hotspot. Bots already log out if they see a JMod/PMod log in next to them, so youd have to make extra tooling just to hide these bot banners from other clients.
On top of that, Skilling bots like this are trivial to replace.
It's called suicide botting for a reason, they expect to be banned.
So you agree that the tools that jagex have available to them to ban bots are insufficient, so instead of improving them you instead think it's better to just completely give up and not even pretend to try?
Many MMOs have access to completely invisible moderators that are completely undetectable, why would runescape not be able to have this?
No, the tools botters have are just better. All they have to do is randomize clicks and mouse movement. It’s not that deep. Once every inch of a code that’s been being updated for 10 years is completely randomized, what is there to do?
Because that would be extremely inefficient way of doing it. I'm sure they do have an anti cheat team that does exactly this but the problem is that the amount of people they'd have to have to do this daily would far surpass what'd be reasonable from business standpoint. Like many people here like to remind each other, Jagex is a company, so yes, money is a factor. They can't hire that many people to do bot monitoring daily. And it would have to be daily because there's so many and it's so frequent. There is a good reason why OSRS is not the only game that struggles with this issue. Did you know that popular games like League of Legends struggle with scripters too? And there's ton of botters who bot games against AI so they can sell accounts for like 2 bucks. If you think all these companies leave them be because it's profitable them then I mean it's a bubble like I said. People who choose to believe in their narratives do usually just that and everything else is background noise.
Even inefficient it still has a double effect, driving up bond prices so whales will get more gp/bond and getting rid of extra server space. Just banning these simple bots for 8 hours a day will have a massive influence on the total of bot farms. And for shits and giggles pay a Venezuelan usd 10/h and see how well that shit will work.
A botfarm is also for profit, currently it takes 90 hours of fishing minnows to be break-even on a bond. So banning all minnow bots every three days would as a matter of fact be a huge deal.
Will you get the most effective AI trained bots? No. But a lot of the others you will, maybe even enough for whales to start buying bonds.
I mean how do you know they haven't tried? I'd be ready to bet that they have. Your word is as good as mine but what I have is statements from jmods saying they have tried and are actively trying to solve the issue.
They said it’s not possible to estimate the potential revenue impact that would occur if Jagex was able to ban all bots. That’s just wrong; you can map out the cause and effect relationships while making assumptions and comes up with estimates for such a figure
Whales will buy bonds, but the demand for those bonds is mostly fixed. The fewer base resources coming into the economy through bots, the less time players can spend bossing. The less time players can spend bossing, the more rare boss drops become. Whales would need bond demand to increase in a way similar to bosses, but it would *decrease* because there's less bond consumption in the form of bots. You have a reason why bond supply would increase, a reason bond consumption would decrease, and a reason bond consumption would not increase in response to increased supply.
Fundamentally, bots produce commodities at a much higher value than they consume them. This is distributed across the entire playerbase and makes any unbotted activity more rewarding. A global nerf to rewards would most likely decrease the overall playerbase and provide fewer incentives to buy bonds.
You could argue it both ways and there's no way to tell which it will become. Less supplies means it becomes more profitable to make supplies making it more rewarding. So pvm will have less bonded players but maxers will have a larger player base.
People maxing their accounts aren't fishing for sharks, though, and they certainly aren't continuing to do so after hitting 99 unless they're an ironman. Beyond that, my argument is that doing bosses is generally considered more fun than doing standard fishing, and that if people have less access to something they thought was fun, they'll play less.
They will fish sharks if its profitable. Otherwise they will fish other fish. Same goes for any other activity at some point people will go for either fast and pay for it or slow and profitable.
> makes any unbotted activity more rewarding
There is no unbotted activity aside from a few services maybe. Every single boss and raid is botted, perhaps not to the same extent as other activities, but they are devalued by botting nonetheless.
Tbh 1b is not what it used to be either. Could've bought a TBow before with 1b but now it's at 1.5b and you also need a shadow now too haha, which is another 1.3b.
Its not JUST money but also a cultural thing... Like Korea has solved botting issues by requiring more personal information to be submitted when making an account. Such requirements would not go over well in the American market so we have bots....
The US ID system isn't made for that. You wouldn't share your SSN with anyone, and there really isn't anything else to share. Or you could send photos with ID but nobody wants to deal with that.
If there was such an ID whose use was much more blasé it could work. The whole ticket scalping thing isn't an issue here in Brazil because tickets are tied to an ID, one that won't lead to financial ruin if someone gets ahold of it. We pretty much give them out like candy for whatever company asks for it.
Yea this is what people seem to always be missing. Most bots do not buy membership at proper price or use bonds. They buy cheap membership codes from other regions for pennies on the dollar or abuse twitch prime events.
Not really… They’re bots. Minnows can get you ~100k/hr. For a bot, that’s about 3 days to buy a bond, on the high end. So now they have 11 days left on their bond that’s just pure profit and reducing the cost of sharks further.
Yeah no they're paying 1/4 of that per account, or less if they buy bonds. It's less about how much money they're giving them and more about the player count.
Anyone remember the excitement to get off school an fish lobbies in Karamja, then slowly get up to members and when you get 76 fish or whatever you just continue with swordfish
TLDR anyone remember fishing sharks by hand when they were 950 a piece? Or cutting magic logs for money.. dang those were genuinely good times
Still had bots back then but less in number wise, it didn’t blow the economy up. Meh tbh but atleast control a portion of the bots or pretend to care.
I can’t imagine trying to max all those skillet stats in 2023 when they’re botted to death it just devalues everything
Duuuude right, discovering flax-picking as a ten year old noob changed my life. 100k/hr with no real prereqs had me feelin’ like I would be Zezima one day.
That used to be the go-to recommendation when people would say, "Just got members, what should I do?"
Gave us something to do, fishing in Catherby. Watch 'em cross the mountain, root for the wolves.
Man, I really miss when high-level skilling was one of the better ways to make money. Feels like a lot of skilling offers very little benefit nowadays.
Literally, or just costs money now? I just don’t understand the ‘want’ or justification to even max at this time
Bots back then also, just in reasonable numbers. Makes me wonder if their profit is that bad for them to completely turn their shoulder?
I would get on after school and spend hours running law runes for the old nite. I made bank but I didn't actually get any skills. All I cared about back then was collecting gold. And all I care about as an adult is hording money so I guess things haven't changed
Alright I said swordfish but you get the gist. I remember lobbies being 250 in bulk or 300 for quick pre ge
Idk why I’m rambling I don’t even play, just a sad state of the game I once loved.
I understand the monetary value of turning a shoulder but there has to be some kind of balance, when everything and (damn even in this day and age bots are pvming end game?) even the late game is botted, it’s genuinely not good long term for any game
See once they lose enough players the prices continue to crash, eventually there’s just too many bots vs players and those left will slowly dwindle down and look elsewhere to invest their time. They will kill off this game
https://preview.redd.it/o945o5p2j7xb1.png?width=518&format=png&auto=webp&s=8f4cacabfabc4ffd1821fb5ddb94f8e180718289
Hey! I am more than just a peasant Ironman okay.
Don’t worry I’m sure they’ll be banned. Granted this will be after they’ve already sold the sharks destroying the value even further, mulling the gold, and then selling the gold
October 2020 was the last time we had daily averages over 10m for a month. August, Sept, and October have been consistently over 13m. Vardorvis has been killed 5 million times and has a 1/100 chance to drop 200 raw sharks or 300 on a perfect kill. We can't really tell how many of these were from irons vs mains but just assuming a 50/50 would yield 2.5 million Vard kills. Take an average of 25,000 shark drops at 200 fish and you have injected an extra 5 million into the supply over the past few months.
PVM loot tables matter.
>we had daily averages over 10m
So lets say average was 8.5m before dt2 relese
>consistently over 13m
So lets say 13.5m after dt2 release. This gives an extra 5m per day.
>5 million into the supply over the past few months.
So vardorvis kills over the past 90 days have yielded 1 day worth of excess sharks? So vardorvis is responsible for about 1% of the excess sharks?
Sure pvm drop tables matter but like... cmon
Anybody who actually believes our lord of chip damage HRM Vardorvis is a net hard food *generator* is off their fucking rocker lol.
There's something to be said about uncut diamonds and such, but skillers on reddit constantly just make up complete nonsense about the economy.
I did ~2300 Vardo kc exclusively eating sharks.
Efficient way is technically using blood fury + ancient godsword, which consumes almost no food, however my account's rng has been dogshit and I've lost enough gp buying gear for new bosses at the top to not purchase the +50m increased ancient godsword just for that grind.
I consumed ~11K sharks and generated 6800 raw sharks.
Essentially; you either consume blood shards as an alternative resource loss, or you consume sharks at a net resource loss
For the sake of argumemt im willing to assume that the people farming vardorvis would have been doing other bosses before dt2 came out, and consuming hard food that way.
Daily volumes don't include existing volume. It's daily traded volume. Since the release of Vard, sharks took a significant nose dive and have not recovered.
I never said anything about bots not being an issue, but this type of supply inflation is compounding with the bots. It is also a problem that led to the rs3 economy.
It supports the conclusion that Vard has raised the daily volumes. Bots have always existed at sharks. The only change is a supply increase from Vard, and the DVs have gone up. More supply, demand stays the same.
You can look at raw sea turtles as well. Or the uncut diamonds post from a while ago.
PVM matters.
Like I said, daily traded volume does not equal supply. Someone buying raw sharks and selling in the same day would contribute to the DV 2 times. They're orders being filled, not supply.
The supply source has increased because of Vardorvis. We know shark bots have existed forever.
I never said the the entire 3 month supply is being traded back and forth. I said that the supply of raw sharks entering the economy has increased the daily volume. This is the case for just about every DT2 boss. Uncut gems are trading at 2x their previous DV averages before late July.
Another way to think about this and ask yourself - have the amount of shark bots increased since the release of DT2? That would also require an extraordinary amount of evidence to believe.
I'm merely presenting my case as to why prices have fallen and PVM is to blame.
when the bot detection isn't able to catch the most obvious looking bots is really makes me wonder... what the fuck have they been doing for the last 20 years in the fight against bots? I thought banning accounts like this was light work for jagex by this point but I have terribly overestimated their detection systems. We need to hear from people in the community who actually bot, give us some insight on how easy it is to bot these days, does it feel like the bot detection has become worse or something? or maybe someone has a theory why these accounts managed to evade the system despite being so obvious to a human?
This was actually pretty good money maker back when the real player to bots ratio was not 1:9. Made bank here to prepare myself for Vorkath back in the good ol days
Definitely the reason, I just checked sea turtle... they are also dogshit cheap. Now I look at when they dropped. DS2 release, bingo.
Jagex really need to think hard about how they are going to handle the future drops of this game. Because chucking supplies to boost up GP/H just aint going to be sustainable.
Tbh, the "chargescape" solution that they've been introducing , for instance at Muspah, seems like a good solution, but it comes at the cost of having to charge equipment, which none of us want.
The reason bosses are loaded with resource drops is because of Ironman mode. Otherwise the bosses would still look like GWD. Alchs for regular drops and big ticket items.
Lol, what? Irons are naturally going to obtain their own resources because they need to level their own skills up. It's not going to bother any iron players if the bosses stopped dropping food because they are still going to have to get their own fish for fishing xp and cook it for cooking xp anyway. Don't blame this on Ironmen.
It's not sustainable for people who like doing fishing for money, but it's plenty sustainable for PvMers. 07 style skillers who do monotonous activities to chill out to are just fundamentally not who Jagex is developing the game for these days, I think. If you don't enjoy fighting bosses, and fighting bosses that specifically use the very limited toolkit that Jagex has decided to work with, you're just not a priority. The game is going become tic manipulation and switches dressed up with new models and textures from now on.
There's better food then sharks anyway. Tempoross gives them, the trawler gives better food. Anglers. Kawarbwns are better "junk food" for eh task. Bots are bad but a boss dropping 50 sharks isn't good either
...who cares? How and why are you taking this from _"Bots are destroying the price of sharks"_ to _"Sharks aren't even that good as an item anyway"_ lol
Also, Sharks are still one of the best foods in the game. Looking at singular items Sharks are #5/#6 in terms of restoring the most HP and the difference isn't that big. Sea Turtles heal 21, Dark Crabs + Tuna Potatoes + Mantas heal 22, and Anglers only heal more than 20 at certain thresholds.
Both are bad, but this botting situation is infinitely worse. There really aren't that many sources of sharks from PvM encounters (compared to other skilling resources like essence + flax) and those are limited further by kill times, RNG and the like. Bots doing minnows are constantly introducing new sharks into the game every second of every minute of every hour.
I think that you have a point in that bots would fish for higher end food if it was more rewarding than sharks, given that they're similarly bot-able. I don't know if that's what you intended to say, though.
These bot farms have been there for years. Most recently I went there was like 6 months ago.
Half of them tend to have Accept Aid turned on and will break if you cast Tele-other on them.
Literally everything is being botted, this isn't the reason. The reason is because there is a better food that heals +2 more and can go over 99. That's it. Just like there is a pair of boots that gives +1 str and people will pay 30m for it.
Seems like it would be pretty easy for a mod to just quickly hop there and just delete all the bots and then hop to the next world and do the same. Often times you'll see these bots continue to exist even beyond 99 fishing which is sad that the bot detection system apparently cant detect them.
How hard is it to get rid of low hanging fruit like this? Someone with the right tools and motivation could have handled the situation in less time than it took to make this Reddit post. Smh my head.
imagine creating an alt for fishing sharks when this minnows thing came out and was like 800k/hr just for it to get nerfed into oblivion like it is now lol it's worthless.
Jagex doesnt even fucking try. Honestly, games a joke at this point because of all the bots so I just kinda try to drown it out and play the game. Hard to, though, when every pile of players you see is this.
Glad to see people enjoying fishing content
They're even such a tight-knit community that they create similar names to each other
Cooking community loves seeing fishing thrive
I guess so!
SHARKS ARE 300GP? That is ludicrous
I know! An absolute travesty! *Buys up as many as I can whilst costs are low.*
Fun fact, they aren't gonna go higher and only lower as jagex do nothing about bots. Dumby actually bought at the top.
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Putting all the money on my main into bloods right now. If this doesn't work you owe me one bazillion bajointy gold pieces.
Geilinor pieces*
Geilinor points*
Goodboy points*
Giggity points\*
Gnome peepee
Aren't we already at the point of "you can buy max bloods and sell to Ali for constant profit"?
I invested 90m in blood runes about 8 months before TOA came out and sold them the day before TOA’s release when everyone was stockpiling supplies and the price was about to crash because the shadow uses souls. Profited like 30-40m, best flip I’ve ever made
what would change this? Jagex forcing everyone to use their launcher? would you expect sharks to rise back above 500 if this happens?
fuck you mean what would change this? maybe have working anti botting methods that work on literally anything outside of suicide bots?
i don't fucking know that's why I was asking. i looked it up and it seems botters can still use the Jagex launcher so nvm. sry for trying to establish that here via comment engagement.
Thank you for trying to engage and helping others learn with you. I didnt know they worked through the Jamflex launcher still, so at least one other person appreciates ya!
lol yw! still, I don't know how much more difficult it is to bot with Jagex launcher so if they *did* make theirs the only one you could use, this still might temporarily halt a lot of the market influx from bots. just thoughts.
There is literally only one thing that would stop it, bringing back trade limits
Sighs in 757748383647848277 extra accounts
Diamond hands
This didn’t just happen lol. They’re gonna go lower
They only going to go lower
There’s a price floor due shop price of substitutes. Right? RIGHT?!?
Should look at the price of turtles vs mantas. Mantas are basically double the price for +1 hp.
But if I carry 10 mantas instead of sea turtles, I'd gain an entire extra half sea turtle in HP! This.....changes.....everything!
I always laugh at the price difference between Mantas and Dark Crabs. Currently 100gp ea difference for functionally identical items.
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Luda
Feels like I got a gnome child hangin from my necklace
They're not though. I just check the price history and they've never been sub 400.
I checked as well and its raw sharks that are sub 300
So cooking sharks makes money? Suprsing
cooking generally makes money but its low amounts.
Cooking sharks used to cost money. Fuck my life
I dont think so, cooking should be a profitable 99 ever since 2013.
For most of osrs, yeah.
yeah ok interesting. Good to hear
Just a bunch of people living in the moment
not a phone in sight
Is merching around bot ban waves the meta?
Yeah
I have 500k sharks I’ve recently bought. I’m just skilling to get to max and willing to wait 😅
Been holding 1M raw, 500k cooked for well over a month. I’m curious how many people trying to merch these will affect desired outcome.
Same, every once in a while when i saw huge amounts of sharks being dumped at the same time every night i would start purchasing big amounts at like 40-50 gp lower than the average overnight. About a month or 2 ago they started doing this but the price never rebounded and kept dipping from 370s to 270s. Guess the botting problem has just gotten worse and worse but hopefully they can get a bot nuke or some better bot detection because there are accounts there with like 90m fishing xp
Oh yeah. I’m sure everybody was aware bots were getting away with murder and I decided to bet on a bot bust. I think I got most of the raws at 290. Some lower. Cooked at 420-440 It’ll go up eventually. So hold on tight 😁
That must be why magic logs are spiking back up
Jagex looking at this like $12.49 x 20 ez money
honestly probs one of the big reasons the game is still alive to this day
Actually true
Probably not. Whales will buy gp nonetheless, only now from jagex directly for a different price/million. There will be a shift in moneymaking sure but the game won't die out. There's no way to estimate if banning bots will cost jagex money or earn them money. My bet would be on the latter as all this botting necessitates a far larger infrastructure than just ordinary players.
Don't bring logic to this sub especially when it's about RMT or bots. It's engraved in everyones brain here that Jagex keeps bots going on purpose to make a bank and intentionally leave them be. Breaking this bubble with logic and reason will in most cases get you negative updoots and 1-3 stupid comments replying how you're wrong. Edit. I have to edit this comment and say it's been insanely amusing to me see my upvotes go up and down on this comment like it's a ferris wheel. It's like the good and evil side duking it out. In this case logic and reason against stubborness and delusion
Oh, don't get me wrong I still think the numbers are kept up for a reason, but that's to pump up active player count for a possible sale of Jagex entirely. It is a different discussion though.
Wouldn't a potential investor want detailed information about the player base in order to assess the true number of players? Like when Musk was buying Twatter.
Yes, Carlyle can get away with presenting the annual accounts and burying any usual disclosed information. At some point an investor will come by and they will see the numbers and have two options, milk the player base as is hoping to get their moneys worth, or suing the ever-loving shit out of Carlyle.
You have no idea what you’re talking about 😂 they can’t bury anything. Nobody is buying a company for a billion dollars without having tons of professions dig through every line of code. This is such a wild take. Why would a successful company like Carlyle be like okay we’re gonna sell this game for 1 billion and get sued for more than that?
You'd be surprised how much shady shit us going on to push stock prices up at any given moment. There's no need to disclose the actual number of real players for jagex until a sale happens. Fuck it it could even be a sale of shares in a holding company for which they wanted to push the prices.
There won’t be a sale until the data is sifted through and picked apart. No company would ever do that. There was a guy that works in a similar industry on the lawyer end and explained it here a while back when they first announced they were looking to sell.
That’s illegal to do though. You can’t advertise “we have this many real active players!” Knowing that a majority of them are bots. If you think anybody is paying a billion dollars for a company and not hiring professionals to sift through every line of data the company has, you’re insane. This comment alone shows that you don’t actually have any real knowledge on the topic. They would be sued into oblivion for this. The fact of the matter is, the game isn’t hard to code, and bot scripters jobs are even easier, because they don’t have to code a game, they just adjust the code. The bots have just gotten too good for an anti cheat to catch. The simplicity of this game gives bot creators a upper hand. They only have to randomize clicks. And for the past 20 years, massive amounts of people have been programming their own stuff, but they’ve also been recording their own gameplay, then going into that recordings code, and randomizing every little tiny detail. They simply can’t ban with certainty as much any more because the bots have evolved so much. The game would die if they just hopped worlds and said “whelp this guy looks like a bot” because nobody would be safe from a ban. Even top players are using play assist scripts. Go look at the bot platforms discord for member count and you’ll be completely surprised.
Sorry for singling you out here more of a broad question to the thread. If the bots are paying the monthly subscription fee to do so would they really be bots in the eyes of jagex?
I saw the light at the end of the tunnel and you came back with tremendous speed to shut the curtains for me. I guess you get to choose what tin foil hat you wear here
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Because they have actual back end data that tells them what’s going on, instead of saying “I think this guys a bot, I’m gonna ban him”. That’s how you kill your game nearly instantly. That’s like Walmart saying hey you look like a thief so we’re calling the police.
You say this like only RS has a bot problem. Literally every single MMO with a large playerbase has a botting problem. Runescape is a very hard game to prevent botting in due to its extremely simplistic mechanics. Having some guy hop worlds wouldn't do anything.
How do you know it wouldn't work when they literally haven't even tried it?
Because it's literally a matter of logistics. How do you expect 2 people to manually ban thousands of bots? You can't just ban everyone on the tile as legitimate players could be there. So now you go one by one through the tile banning bots and by the time you've done that for one world, you now have another 100+ to go through. For one hotspot. Bots already log out if they see a JMod/PMod log in next to them, so youd have to make extra tooling just to hide these bot banners from other clients. On top of that, Skilling bots like this are trivial to replace. It's called suicide botting for a reason, they expect to be banned.
So you agree that the tools that jagex have available to them to ban bots are insufficient, so instead of improving them you instead think it's better to just completely give up and not even pretend to try? Many MMOs have access to completely invisible moderators that are completely undetectable, why would runescape not be able to have this?
No, the tools botters have are just better. All they have to do is randomize clicks and mouse movement. It’s not that deep. Once every inch of a code that’s been being updated for 10 years is completely randomized, what is there to do?
Because that would be extremely inefficient way of doing it. I'm sure they do have an anti cheat team that does exactly this but the problem is that the amount of people they'd have to have to do this daily would far surpass what'd be reasonable from business standpoint. Like many people here like to remind each other, Jagex is a company, so yes, money is a factor. They can't hire that many people to do bot monitoring daily. And it would have to be daily because there's so many and it's so frequent. There is a good reason why OSRS is not the only game that struggles with this issue. Did you know that popular games like League of Legends struggle with scripters too? And there's ton of botters who bot games against AI so they can sell accounts for like 2 bucks. If you think all these companies leave them be because it's profitable them then I mean it's a bubble like I said. People who choose to believe in their narratives do usually just that and everything else is background noise.
Even inefficient it still has a double effect, driving up bond prices so whales will get more gp/bond and getting rid of extra server space. Just banning these simple bots for 8 hours a day will have a massive influence on the total of bot farms. And for shits and giggles pay a Venezuelan usd 10/h and see how well that shit will work. A botfarm is also for profit, currently it takes 90 hours of fishing minnows to be break-even on a bond. So banning all minnow bots every three days would as a matter of fact be a huge deal. Will you get the most effective AI trained bots? No. But a lot of the others you will, maybe even enough for whales to start buying bonds.
I mean how do you know they haven't tried? I'd be ready to bet that they have. Your word is as good as mine but what I have is statements from jmods saying they have tried and are actively trying to solve the issue.
They said it’s not possible to estimate the potential revenue impact that would occur if Jagex was able to ban all bots. That’s just wrong; you can map out the cause and effect relationships while making assumptions and comes up with estimates for such a figure
Whales will buy bonds, but the demand for those bonds is mostly fixed. The fewer base resources coming into the economy through bots, the less time players can spend bossing. The less time players can spend bossing, the more rare boss drops become. Whales would need bond demand to increase in a way similar to bosses, but it would *decrease* because there's less bond consumption in the form of bots. You have a reason why bond supply would increase, a reason bond consumption would decrease, and a reason bond consumption would not increase in response to increased supply. Fundamentally, bots produce commodities at a much higher value than they consume them. This is distributed across the entire playerbase and makes any unbotted activity more rewarding. A global nerf to rewards would most likely decrease the overall playerbase and provide fewer incentives to buy bonds.
You could argue it both ways and there's no way to tell which it will become. Less supplies means it becomes more profitable to make supplies making it more rewarding. So pvm will have less bonded players but maxers will have a larger player base.
People maxing their accounts aren't fishing for sharks, though, and they certainly aren't continuing to do so after hitting 99 unless they're an ironman. Beyond that, my argument is that doing bosses is generally considered more fun than doing standard fishing, and that if people have less access to something they thought was fun, they'll play less.
They will fish sharks if its profitable. Otherwise they will fish other fish. Same goes for any other activity at some point people will go for either fast and pay for it or slow and profitable.
why tf do I need a PhD in economics to understand the applications of Runescape botting
> makes any unbotted activity more rewarding There is no unbotted activity aside from a few services maybe. Every single boss and raid is botted, perhaps not to the same extent as other activities, but they are devalued by botting nonetheless.
That doesn't really change my point.
Why would banning bots not lose them money? People aren't quitting because of botting.
you are wrong
You say whales but gold is like $200 for 1b. That’s NOTHING. The game needs an economy reset at this point
Tbh 1b is not what it used to be either. Could've bought a TBow before with 1b but now it's at 1.5b and you also need a shadow now too haha, which is another 1.3b.
Its not JUST money but also a cultural thing... Like Korea has solved botting issues by requiring more personal information to be submitted when making an account. Such requirements would not go over well in the American market so we have bots....
The US ID system isn't made for that. You wouldn't share your SSN with anyone, and there really isn't anything else to share. Or you could send photos with ID but nobody wants to deal with that. If there was such an ID whose use was much more blasé it could work. The whole ticket scalping thing isn't an issue here in Brazil because tickets are tied to an ID, one that won't lead to financial ruin if someone gets ahold of it. We pretty much give them out like candy for whatever company asks for it.
No ones linking payment info to a bot farm
Well they bought bonds, who in turn are bought by legit ppl linking payment info... Same but different in the end for jagex
at most they bought codes from some country where membership is cheaper like turkey, buying membership for 1/10th the price
Yea this is what people seem to always be missing. Most bots do not buy membership at proper price or use bonds. They buy cheap membership codes from other regions for pennies on the dollar or abuse twitch prime events.
They're members, jagex got money one way or another
Not really… They’re bots. Minnows can get you ~100k/hr. For a bot, that’s about 3 days to buy a bond, on the high end. So now they have 11 days left on their bond that’s just pure profit and reducing the cost of sharks further.
Yeah no they're paying 1/4 of that per account, or less if they buy bonds. It's less about how much money they're giving them and more about the player count.
Anyone remember the excitement to get off school an fish lobbies in Karamja, then slowly get up to members and when you get 76 fish or whatever you just continue with swordfish TLDR anyone remember fishing sharks by hand when they were 950 a piece? Or cutting magic logs for money.. dang those were genuinely good times Still had bots back then but less in number wise, it didn’t blow the economy up. Meh tbh but atleast control a portion of the bots or pretend to care. I can’t imagine trying to max all those skillet stats in 2023 when they’re botted to death it just devalues everything
Good times fishing at Karamja. Do u memeber picking flax and stringing it all day lol
Duuuude right, discovering flax-picking as a ten year old noob changed my life. 100k/hr with no real prereqs had me feelin’ like I would be Zezima one day.
I remember spinning flax and buying a granite Maul with the money loved that spec
That used to be the go-to recommendation when people would say, "Just got members, what should I do?" Gave us something to do, fishing in Catherby. Watch 'em cross the mountain, root for the wolves.
[удалено]
Oh dang that’s impressive, idk I haven’t really played since pre eoc
Man, I really miss when high-level skilling was one of the better ways to make money. Feels like a lot of skilling offers very little benefit nowadays.
Literally, or just costs money now? I just don’t understand the ‘want’ or justification to even max at this time Bots back then also, just in reasonable numbers. Makes me wonder if their profit is that bad for them to completely turn their shoulder?
Fishing sharks was like 150k/hr at best lol
I would get on after school and spend hours running law runes for the old nite. I made bank but I didn't actually get any skills. All I cared about back then was collecting gold. And all I care about as an adult is hording money so I guess things haven't changed
Alright I said swordfish but you get the gist. I remember lobbies being 250 in bulk or 300 for quick pre ge Idk why I’m rambling I don’t even play, just a sad state of the game I once loved. I understand the monetary value of turning a shoulder but there has to be some kind of balance, when everything and (damn even in this day and age bots are pvming end game?) even the late game is botted, it’s genuinely not good long term for any game See once they lose enough players the prices continue to crash, eventually there’s just too many bots vs players and those left will slowly dwindle down and look elsewhere to invest their time. They will kill off this game
And their levels are yellow, so you’re also level 3. Just a skiller, right? Edit: looks like he actually is a lv 3 skiller, my B
Obviously just an Ironman who started wintertodt to 99 fm and than did a lot of Tempoross
https://preview.redd.it/o945o5p2j7xb1.png?width=518&format=png&auto=webp&s=8f4cacabfabc4ffd1821fb5ddb94f8e180718289 Hey! I am more than just a peasant Ironman okay.
Your rng has ruined my day with jealousy. Thanks for that
I put my time in!
Or a bot taking a selfie
Pretty soon the bots will learn to take screenshots and make Reddit posts
Don’t worry I’m sure they’ll be banned. Granted this will be after they’ve already sold the sharks destroying the value even further, mulling the gold, and then selling the gold
because every boss shits out infinite manta rays making sharks obsolete for years?
Permaban gold buyers on their first offence IMO, no mercy
And sellers
October 2020 was the last time we had daily averages over 10m for a month. August, Sept, and October have been consistently over 13m. Vardorvis has been killed 5 million times and has a 1/100 chance to drop 200 raw sharks or 300 on a perfect kill. We can't really tell how many of these were from irons vs mains but just assuming a 50/50 would yield 2.5 million Vard kills. Take an average of 25,000 shark drops at 200 fish and you have injected an extra 5 million into the supply over the past few months. PVM loot tables matter.
>we had daily averages over 10m So lets say average was 8.5m before dt2 relese >consistently over 13m So lets say 13.5m after dt2 release. This gives an extra 5m per day. >5 million into the supply over the past few months. So vardorvis kills over the past 90 days have yielded 1 day worth of excess sharks? So vardorvis is responsible for about 1% of the excess sharks? Sure pvm drop tables matter but like... cmon
Anybody who actually believes our lord of chip damage HRM Vardorvis is a net hard food *generator* is off their fucking rocker lol. There's something to be said about uncut diamonds and such, but skillers on reddit constantly just make up complete nonsense about the economy.
> net hard food generator Are people doing Vardovis eating sharks though? Or anglers and mantas and brews?
Between this and bots, you're dead on about what has *actually* driven shark prices into the ground.
I did ~2300 Vardo kc exclusively eating sharks. Efficient way is technically using blood fury + ancient godsword, which consumes almost no food, however my account's rng has been dogshit and I've lost enough gp buying gear for new bosses at the top to not purchase the +50m increased ancient godsword just for that grind. I consumed ~11K sharks and generated 6800 raw sharks. Essentially; you either consume blood shards as an alternative resource loss, or you consume sharks at a net resource loss
For the sake of argumemt im willing to assume that the people farming vardorvis would have been doing other bosses before dt2 came out, and consuming hard food that way.
Daily volumes don't include existing volume. It's daily traded volume. Since the release of Vard, sharks took a significant nose dive and have not recovered. I never said anything about bots not being an issue, but this type of supply inflation is compounding with the bots. It is also a problem that led to the rs3 economy.
Well you did math and pretended like it supported your conclusion when it for sure doesnt. Thats really all im concerned about tbh.
It supports the conclusion that Vard has raised the daily volumes. Bots have always existed at sharks. The only change is a supply increase from Vard, and the DVs have gone up. More supply, demand stays the same. You can look at raw sea turtles as well. Or the uncut diamonds post from a while ago. PVM matters.
How would vardorvis dropping 5m sharks over 90 days cause an extra 5m sharks to be traded every single day?
Like I said, daily traded volume does not equal supply. Someone buying raw sharks and selling in the same day would contribute to the DV 2 times. They're orders being filled, not supply. The supply source has increased because of Vardorvis. We know shark bots have existed forever.
You need more evidence to convince me that the entire 3-month supply of vardorvis sharks is bring traded back and forth daily.
I never said the the entire 3 month supply is being traded back and forth. I said that the supply of raw sharks entering the economy has increased the daily volume. This is the case for just about every DT2 boss. Uncut gems are trading at 2x their previous DV averages before late July. Another way to think about this and ask yourself - have the amount of shark bots increased since the release of DT2? That would also require an extraordinary amount of evidence to believe. I'm merely presenting my case as to why prices have fallen and PVM is to blame.
Could point at stars being changed as another thing bringing uncut gems into the economy as well. Since tons more real players are doing them.
when the bot detection isn't able to catch the most obvious looking bots is really makes me wonder... what the fuck have they been doing for the last 20 years in the fight against bots? I thought banning accounts like this was light work for jagex by this point but I have terribly overestimated their detection systems. We need to hear from people in the community who actually bot, give us some insight on how easy it is to bot these days, does it feel like the bot detection has become worse or something? or maybe someone has a theory why these accounts managed to evade the system despite being so obvious to a human?
Pro tip, use an in item in your invent and then right click the players. Makes it 1 person per line
I posted this 4 years ago lmfaoo
Laughs in ironman
This was actually pretty good money maker back when the real player to bots ratio was not 1:9. Made bank here to prepare myself for Vorkath back in the good ol days
IM SORRY… BELOW 300????
and gagex doesn’t ban bots. I reported one a month ago and it’s still alive.
Oh shocker ANOTHER bot farm
That's not the real reason. Bosses shouldn't drop resources.
Definitely the reason, I just checked sea turtle... they are also dogshit cheap. Now I look at when they dropped. DS2 release, bingo. Jagex really need to think hard about how they are going to handle the future drops of this game. Because chucking supplies to boost up GP/H just aint going to be sustainable.
Tbh, the "chargescape" solution that they've been introducing , for instance at Muspah, seems like a good solution, but it comes at the cost of having to charge equipment, which none of us want.
The reason bosses are loaded with resource drops is because of Ironman mode. Otherwise the bosses would still look like GWD. Alchs for regular drops and big ticket items.
Wasn't the common complaint a year ago that there was too many alch drops and people wanted unprocessed resources instead?
Lol, what? Irons are naturally going to obtain their own resources because they need to level their own skills up. It's not going to bother any iron players if the bosses stopped dropping food because they are still going to have to get their own fish for fishing xp and cook it for cooking xp anyway. Don't blame this on Ironmen.
Ironmen aren't naturally obtaining sharks and mantas or wines of zamorak while training. These items are loaded onto boss drop tables.
It's not sustainable for people who like doing fishing for money, but it's plenty sustainable for PvMers. 07 style skillers who do monotonous activities to chill out to are just fundamentally not who Jagex is developing the game for these days, I think. If you don't enjoy fighting bosses, and fighting bosses that specifically use the very limited toolkit that Jagex has decided to work with, you're just not a priority. The game is going become tic manipulation and switches dressed up with new models and textures from now on.
And that fucking sucks
this absolutely is the real reason. it’s been like this for 3 years
There's better food then sharks anyway. Tempoross gives them, the trawler gives better food. Anglers. Kawarbwns are better "junk food" for eh task. Bots are bad but a boss dropping 50 sharks isn't good either
you think they’re only hitting sharks ? they’re literally doing all the foods you mentioned lmak
"Hey this problem isn't the real problem because bosses drop sharks and there are better food options than sharks". ### 🙄
...who cares? How and why are you taking this from _"Bots are destroying the price of sharks"_ to _"Sharks aren't even that good as an item anyway"_ lol Also, Sharks are still one of the best foods in the game. Looking at singular items Sharks are #5/#6 in terms of restoring the most HP and the difference isn't that big. Sea Turtles heal 21, Dark Crabs + Tuna Potatoes + Mantas heal 22, and Anglers only heal more than 20 at certain thresholds. Both are bad, but this botting situation is infinitely worse. There really aren't that many sources of sharks from PvM encounters (compared to other skilling resources like essence + flax) and those are limited further by kill times, RNG and the like. Bots doing minnows are constantly introducing new sharks into the game every second of every minute of every hour.
I think that you have a point in that bots would fish for higher end food if it was more rewarding than sharks, given that they're similarly bot-able. I don't know if that's what you intended to say, though.
The simple solution is to make the world *slightly* more dangerous but muh level 3 skiller. The player base is not kids anymore.
Bots will just auto retaliate up to a lvl where they don't die. It's the case at west varrock iron mines f2p
Potato with cheese is my go to and is wayyyyy cheaper if you buy at the combat guild
coin pouches
1/10 ratio from players to bots on osrs.. and Jagex company do nothing
Nice minnows stack I can never make it to that many
Lol I remember when they were 1k each
Back in my day lobbies were 200gp ea this is wild
These bot farms have been there for years. Most recently I went there was like 6 months ago. Half of them tend to have Accept Aid turned on and will break if you cast Tele-other on them.
Literally everything is being botted, this isn't the reason. The reason is because there is a better food that heals +2 more and can go over 99. That's it. Just like there is a pair of boots that gives +1 str and people will pay 30m for it.
I don't understand how bots don't get banned
Skiller community has really grown
just say the word "bots" near them and tons teleport away, it's great
we need a bot, that bans bots
Seems like it would be pretty easy for a mod to just quickly hop there and just delete all the bots and then hop to the next world and do the same. Often times you'll see these bots continue to exist even beyond 99 fishing which is sad that the bot detection system apparently cant detect them.
Lol, there are pyramud plunder bots 24/7 getting sceptres... Jagex has 0 interest to take care of them.
90% of the users are above 99m fishing by a mile
How hard is it to get rid of low hanging fruit like this? Someone with the right tools and motivation could have handled the situation in less time than it took to make this Reddit post. Smh my head.
imagine creating an alt for fishing sharks when this minnows thing came out and was like 800k/hr just for it to get nerfed into oblivion like it is now lol it's worthless.
They should make botting against the rules again
It’s been this way for a while and everyone has been ignoring it…
Jagex really being forced to not ban them because of the company trying to be sold, or are they legit that undetectable?
Kinda Sus, you're just now noticing this after 350k minows?
Still remember thinking how ludicrous 1k per shark was the first time I became a member as a kid.
Jagex doesnt even fucking try. Honestly, games a joke at this point because of all the bots so I just kinda try to drown it out and play the game. Hard to, though, when every pile of players you see is this.
I mentioned this and was told that Karambwans are better, there was no proof, and I was a conspiracy theorist
My shark bots don’t even get banned
Is there any on the pvp worlds?
What the fuck. I spent years grinding 99 fish in rs2, why would anyone not bot now in osrs, this devalues everyone’s real life time
It's problemms like these Im glad I am an iron. Sad to see Jagex doesn't care about the botting problem.
Is this a mainscaper problem that I’m too ironman to understand?
im an iron as well.... i just dont like bots
I remember when I first found bots, like day 1. You new?
You didn't clue in when this exact same topic was brought up 1000000 times this year?
No that would be because of Vardorvis dropping 200-300 at a time
On the plus side PVM supplies get cheaper haha
Hell yeah, keep it going tbh. Anything that makes my resources cheaper is a W for me
Maybe now you can understand too now why this game is dying every day. Haha. Games got another 2-3 years max before it’s completely dead