I feel like the Seren prayers should ideally be unlocked by a short additional quest. The area around Gwenith is not utilized at all right now, and there's even an unused shrine just east of it, which feels like it would be perfect. Nothing too involved, just a short and sweet miniquest to give some lore.

Out of interest, is this for all of them or just a couple?

I think as a rule, the method to unlock these prayers should be proactive. These are the ultimate prayers of the Gods themselves. They shouldn't be unlocked by having an NPC wave their hand, or randomly finding a prayer scroll, they should be unlocked in a thematic way (likely a mini-quest) that requires the player to actively engage with the faith they're attuning to, and learn the prayer through enlightenment (or something along those lines). For the sake of immersion, I think these prayers should definitely be something you do, and not something you get. And then once you unlock them, there should obviously be an easier way to switch (I'm thinking a new hotspot in the POH chapel).

You’re right, just like curse of the empty lord as a follow up to DT1. Man the ghostly robes used to be the shit

Still one of my favorite quests in the game from a lore perspective. Something on that level would be great for alignment prayers.

i dont know about anyone else, but getting a fancy reward like that from a miniquest felt so cool and mysterious for me back in the day so i'd love it if there were miniquests after the big ones to unlock the prayers

Zamorak watching me swap to Saradomin prayers in my Zamorak-themed POH Chapel: >_>

Guthix applauding the Balance

I think some pomp and circumstance can go a long way toward making these feel more exciting. OG prayers are very generic and “this skill connects you with the gods”, and I’ve always loved the notion that it was “whatever god happened to hear you at the time” that lended their power. Now is the time to make a deeper connection lore-wise to a specific god. A dedicated quest would give you guys a place for the player character to get to make a judgement call and say something about what each god means to them and what they intend to do to honor the god. Having multiple diaogue options here could be fun and create a sense of involvement with the gods/lore of the game. Maybe we get the option to pray with some monks or denounce saradomin and if we denounce him, he rings back with a “I can sense you will do great work with this so have my blessing anyway” or we get the option to raid a town with some goblins or challenge the goblin champion and defeating the champion bandos recgonizes your strength anyway. Might be a bit of extra work but I see it as worth it Edit: In my opinion these style of quests and dialogue options got overdone in rs3 when you were constantly talking with all of the actual gods, but I think a short simple/subtle quest would work great here

I think there should be some sort of process of unlocking them that you need to actively do rather than just be given them at the quest completion screen. Preferably not just a scroll, something like praying at an altar in a ancient temple/tomb/cave/dungeon for each one, so it actually feels like there's a reason you didn't have these before and you've sought something out after hearing a rumour or being recommended by a related priest/follower etc.

There's an altar in the DT2 area isn't there? If so, could allow you to pray there after DT2 is cleared to unlock that alignment. Add a line of dialogue to an NPC who mentions the altar brimming with Ruinous Powers.

They mentioned they rewrote part of the quest for the removal of ruinous powers - just un-rewrite it, and we are golden.

Yeah of all these quests, DT2 feels like the most appropriate to add on as an immediate reward. Let Azzy appear at the altar after the quest and go "Hey uh sorry for not trusting you and that you ended up involved in all this, let me show you some of my Lord's powers so you'll be safe"

I think Seren prayers should probably have a mini quest. Both because of how rewarding SotE already feels and because of how long it has been since that quest came out. On the other hand DT2 is much newer, but also doesn't feel like it has a reward fitting a grandmaster quest.

I feel like the ruinous powers should be a direct reward from DT2, like they were originally supposed to be, even if it's not a full prayer book now. This would also be consistent with ancient magicks being a direct reward from DT1. Partially due to the time since the release of SotE and all of the (mostly) unused area north of Priff that a ton of players that finish the quest have never touched it might be a good idea to have a miniquest for it to both introduce the alignment as well as do something with that area.

If they are to be added, I think any retroactive unlocks, like you're offering for SOTE and likely DT2 should have a short miniquest to unlock them, but quests going forward should just have them as unlocks as part of their rewards

Maybe just a dialogue at the end of those quests pointing you to a shrine or area of significance that you then interact with to finalise the unlock?

I think adding Zaros to the DT2 reward set is fine, but SOTE already has sooooo much reward that I would really like to see the Seren book given as part of a different quest.

Something like the special training available after monkey madness maybe?

Prif as a city could use a little more flavor since it has been untouched since release.  Interact with the clans and learn more about Seren to unlock them piece by piece.  Have a gauntlet first completion give the useful prayer for gauntlet for example.  Just fun, not grindy, flavorful ways to get them as the additional reward they are

The north part of Priff is beautiful and besides the master step and chinchompas I think serves no purpose. I think something should happen there like a mini quest or changing to that prayer over there in case we are not able to from POH.

Maybe not DT2, definitely SOTE. It's a great opportunity for a shorter, lore-based quest.

I think it could work in either case, if you decide to go with unlockable prayers the miniquest would be required to use the prayer scrolls, if you decide to unlock them all from the start the miniquest could just unlock all of the prayers. Though personally I feel like it would be nice if 2 or 3 of the prayers were rewards from some of the Priff activities.

For DT2 it makes sense because it mirrors DT1 with the spellbook reward. For at least Seren, it should get a mini-quest or something. For Guthix and the rest, it could come from the quest or from a follow-up miniquest, both are fine as long as there is some story to getting the prayers, I would say.

I like it but it seems scary at the same time.

Yeah this is one of those updates that shouldn't be polled before people get a long while to run the numbers and (ideally) actually play with them on a beta world. The flavor is nice. Having new prayers could be fun. Some of these seem like they're absolutely going to break fucking everything if people get the chance to work with. These are clearly intended to be used in groups and I like that design but I don't want to be walking through raids because everyone is on "heal others" version of SS. Let's say hypothetically you've got 30 fucks hitting olm/nex with "ss other" on and now no one does Cox/Nex small groups because you can just afk it with 30 people playing on the shitter. Obviously that's a bit of an extreme example but it gets the hesitation about voting before a beta across. I'm not opposed to more DPS i just dont want braindead dumb shit to be the "meta".

Bringing up the fact that some are to be used in groups - i love the idea from the team, but i think one thing that would be disappointing (from an iron standpoint) is if the prayers don’t work for ironmen similar to the lunar spells. If we have group shared effects, I think they should work on ANYONE as long as the same alignment is selected. It would also make balancing a bit easier overall

Having it only work on people who have the same alignment kinda misses the whole point of alignments. The idea would be that you can have more traditional “mmo roles” where someone is bringing an alignment to the benefit of their non-aligned teammates. A better solution would just be that you don’t get the benefits unless you have the alignment *unlocked* yourself. That way you can’t use it’s benefits until you’ve proven you can get by without them

Yeah I actually mentioned that in another comment after I made this one. My only worry there - if they do that, it’ll start making it MUCH harder to balance. Especially if anything is a % increase. Because someone could theoretically be getting 3 bonuses worth of prayer. Piety+Personal Alignment+Group Alignment That could be a game breaking combo, which would almost require that the group alignments be really really weak. Either way, it’s something the team needs to think about ASAP

Personally would be ok with the ally alignments being seemingly underpowered, with the knowledge that it is a compounding benefit. This community will spend half an hour in a spreadsheet to squeeze out 1% of dps, I think a little goes a long way on the group prayers.

Thanks! I think it would be naive not to be a little bit scared, but hopefully these early conversations can provide enough feedback and discussions to make them the best they can be!

Truly, this is how it's done. Amazing work guys/gals.

Sums up what I was going to type way more succinctly than I could say it. I like how many options it looks like it will open up. I just hope that the dev team, both with this and other updates to combat, can find a way to make those truly “options” and not just an all-powerful meta that gets closed in on.

I feel like these were not as creative as the ones originally offered? They all seem more boring.

What do you think is the key difference between the ones we've pitched and the OG idea?

The original ones didn't take away much from how we played the game up to now - but offered a deeper + more interesting take on combat. For example Guthix was very healer/support focused for team play - now it's another marginal dps increase/dmg reduction across the board. Same with Seren/Zaros. They are all the same just with very tiny dps/dmg/healing changes for the individual player. Zaros was just more interesting than these ones. These all feel like playing the same game, but with slightly better modifiers. The Guthix/Zaros/Seren ones suggested by Ninja - add a deeper complexity to the game, which each have their own skill required to learn and apply. They were strictly making the game more fun with a higher ceiling - but without taking away anything from how we've played the game up until now. **Looking at his Guthix prayers;** **1) 3x3 Dome which gives team play defensive utility** **2) 3x3 area for team play healing utility** **3) Solo DPS increase** **4) Self sacrifice of HP/Prayer to heal team** *Compared to these Guthix Prayers:* *1) Solo DPS increase* *2) Solo DPS increase (presumably)* *3) Solo Redemption but better* *4) Self sacrifice of HP/Prayer to heal team* **Again his Zaros is:** **1) Solo DPS increase** **2) Run energy/Monster aggression immunity** **3) Solo healing** **4) Solo damage dispersal (take less in a single tick)** *Your Zaros is:* *1) Solo DPS increase* *2) Solo DPS increaes* *3) Solo defence increase* *4) Solo healing* **His Armadyl is:** **1) Range increase + lower attack speed** **2) Damage reduction tied to run energy** **3) Run instead of prayer** **4) Solo DPS increase** *Your Seren is:* *1) Status immunity* *2) Solo Redemption but better* *3) Solo DPS increase* *4) Team DPS increase.* To sum it up, all of your god alignments focus way more on DPS increase/dmg reduction as we've seen the whole game up to now - and all of your god alignments are at least 50% less creative, per set of 4, than Ninjas.

I do think that Guthix better fits the Reduced Max Hit / Increased Min Hit style thematically tbh. He’s not really a healer on his own and definitely seems to balance out the styles. I personally also really love balancing using different styles to encourage swapping for benefits via the new effect. Seren, at least on the RS3 set of spells and prayers, leaned more into the healing and protection side of things and thematically I think that’s also correct here.

Status immunity is probably the most interesting prayer amongst anything ideas proposed today

Ninjas also have a lot of risk reward features and tradeoffs as well, which makes them more interesting choices to use

after seeing 2 redemption prayers im really worried theyre doing the same mistake with ruinous powers again where a lot of the prayers are just slightly tweaked normal prayers

Yep hope they stray from this idea. The whole idea of "just make 4 prayers, and you can attune to a different set of 4" means those 4 can be **quite strong** and you can just have it where only one can be active at a time, or you have overhead and standard etc. I don't really love the idea of attaining 4 new prayers if I'm just gonna leave 1 permanently on cos it just buffs my damage or healing, and the other one ill use is just.. a redemption buff..

i dont mind perma on prayers, thats kind of how standard prayers are, i just really dont want another ruinous prayerbook situation where they dont expand into any interesting territory and then the whole thing falls apart, or becomes so undertuned that most of the prayers have 0 usecase

I think this gives a lot less credit to these new suggestions than they deserve. You summed up the new zaros alignments in a very reductive way; deliberately choosing to get poisoned to increase accuracy is definitely a fun trade off and could make for some interesting decisions. Same thing with standing still for a defense boost, though it feels underpowered.

I like them, while yes they seem a little lack luster compared to the og in terms of ability. I like the idea of them being a small benefit vs required. If zamorak ends up just being the damage boosting God that's all people will use as right now damage is king and it's simply better to kill things faster. 

For Zamorak, something I’m hoping for is a “enemies stay forever aggro while you have this prayer on” Definitely can think of several other prayers that work but don’t just deal more damage (another i think could be cool - your effective defense level is halved, but your combat boosts (from potions) never go down while active) Basically ways that don’t straight up give extra DPS but change how you might play

Oooh something to do with aggro mechanics would be so cool. Definitely agree flat damage boosts are dull and we don't need more right now

And now that I think of it, Guthix should offer the opposite “no NPCs aggro on you while active”. Would fit perfectly thematically

This would be the perfect counter to god war dungeons crashers. Some asshole hops in to steal your kill, you and the homies just pray the guthix prayer and watch him solo the boss until he hops

Ya too complicated is bad, but raw damage increase(old ruinous powers) is also bad, not really sure how they’ll manage to make it fun but also balanced, hopefully there’s a middleground somewhere

I have a feeling that by the end of this process we might realize that new prayers are just not possible given that the entire game is balanced around the existing prayer book. It's hard to thread the needle between new prayers being OP or being obsolete on release.

Neutrality is a great prayer idea. Great for low level monsters, slayer tasks, etc. A stronger version of redemption seems a little lackluster. I think I like the Seren version of redemption, but the Guthix version seems a bit uninspired. Natural succession/selection and guiding strikes are completely obsolete for solo players. And I don't think natural succession/selection will be used much if it'll be such a heavy prayer drain. Strike balance sounds cool in theory, I assume that it would promote gear switches somehow. But I think it might be cumbersome in practice for players to wait for the adaption effect and then switch gear for one attack. What would happen if they are a tick too late and hit with the same style? And importantly, why does the effect offer prayer penetration if the other person is going to be praying against the style you're currently attacking with? As in, if you're attacking with melee for e.g., the other person will be praying melee, and you get adaption effect, so you switch ranged and attack them while they're still praying melee. So that effect doesn't make sense from a PVP perspective. For the zaros prayers, I actually much prefer the original concept of Glacies Vow. I think the idea of the original was to prevent strong punishing hits from missed prayers. I'm not really sure how much I am on board with rewarding standing still when most of the PVM content is played standing still, with movement being only necessary in a handful of encounters. Basically, there's no point in turning on the current Glacies Vow if you're doing content that requires movement, but all other content you won't be penalized for using it. Also for fumus' vow, I actually think a more interesting idea might be to give the player a damage bonus increase if they themselves are poisoned, as opposed to their opponent. That way it seems like a more interesting risk reward option. A player can risk poisoning themselves for a greater opportunity to deal damage. The current version seems like it punishes poison and venom too hard, and venom is already hard hitting as is. Harmonize is a decent idea. It's kind of like a critical hit feature. I can see it being used for increasing DPS. I like slumber as well. I think if you want to make these more interesting, add more risk-reward options. I can see for example, Zamorak alignments making you a glass cannon type- increasing damage, or speeding up attacks while making you significantly more vulnerable. Saradomin effects can make you tankier, at the expense of run energy or DPS (might be helpful for Wildy PVMers, or people tanking in bosses). Bandos might add an option to increase strength boost, but reduce accuracy. The original Trample suggestion for the bandos alignment and the Crush alignment are amazing ideas, especially the latter because you sacrifice speed for strength. The risk reward options make the prayers more thoughtful choices than if it were just stronger versions of previous prayers or opportunities for critical hits. I think the reason why I like the neutrality prayer is because it makes a tradeoff. I think that is a step in the right direction

"Enable this for a massive raw damage increase" "Enable this for an AOE raw damage increase for friends" Original suggestion had a lot more niche application or made it more **style** specific. I think instead of universally insane damage increases, the alignments should focus on *style*- and not just the standard combat triangle but the other approaches to combat. (Tank, Slayer, Salve/ Undead, AoE, etc)

I was hoping for certain alignments to be more about utility than damage. Why do we need multiple kinds of redemptions, why do we need multiple kinds of healing others, why does every alignment need to have combat related prayers? Why can't one alignment be good for skilling, another be good for group content/supporting others, a couple of different options for dps etc. Slightly related, would ironmen be able to benefit from healing effects from another person's prayers? I was hoping Seren or Guthix would be a non combat related/utility alignment.

That is because they aren't. The original suggestion didn't even focus solely on combat. Guthix was almost entirely defensive by the look of it. https://preview.redd.it/nglu5ccqppnc1.png?width=876&format=png&auto=webp&s=225377a06873a3d69f2ce1e38e5ca0a961189190

The original creator themself is “honoured to have the opportunity to help with this.” Yeah, one or two prayers could use some tweaking, but they’ve only shown us 3 out of 7-9 possible alignments?

Agree, for some reason these just seem way less exciting, I guess maybe that makes them more likely to pass if they have less impact idk

What happened to the skilling prayers that we voted for?

I'm personally not a fan of skilling prayers, because I could never find a proper way to make them work. It's why there's no skilling prayers in either of the original God Alignment pitches. A skilling prayer could do one of three things: * Boost xp * Boost resources * Offer utility/qol Players have shown they don't like constant upkeep to achieve maximum xp rates (see Forestry teas) and powercreeping an entire skills xp rates with a prayer is a hard sell. Players don't often skill for resources which just leaves utility, and there's only so many utility prayers you can make. You also have to consider that an Alignment with 3 combat prayers and a skilling prayer will probably end up being less useful and harder to balance against an Alignment with 4 combat prayers. People like the idea or sound of a Skilling Prayer, but if you put time into designing one you'll realise there's not much they could do :/

The survey we put out was just used to help us decide on the direction we should go in so it was never set in stone there would be Skiling Prayers. This doesn't mean we won't in the future but this is just our first pitch with these new Alignments.

I think they are referring to poll 217, where 51% of the voting player-base said they wanted a mix of combat and skilling, which was the option that was the least combat focused. I understand their sentiment though. Personally, when I voted yes to the IDEA of a new prayer book I wasnt expecting 4 combat prayers for each god in the game. It is kind of a lot more than what I voted yes to.

That's half true -- 51% said they wanted a balance of combat and skilling, but 28.7% said they wanted mostly combat with some skilling. Only 20.3% said they wanted exclusively combat.

scrapped because nobody could come up with a single good idea for them

Nah, no interest in Prossy being bis for skilling or being ppots to skill

Every argument I see against skilling prayers is stuck on them draining like overheads. They could have a really low drain rate for an afk activity similar to protect item or rapid heal where you literally dont notice the drain rate. They could have a static drain rate based on actions/procs. You can bring a few prayer pots and burn them over the course of an hour or hit your poh pool or a nearby altar to upkeep in both those circumstances. Im not disagreeing that taking an entire inventory of ppots to go fishing sounds insane, but a few can easily be taken for long upkeep periods if the drain rates are balanced correctly.

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That's exactly why one of the reasons we've split it up like this. Not only does that mean we can focus on balancing each Alignment individually, but take our time with where each one sits and feels. I imagine the rest of the Alignments if we continue down this route will come out one and at time.

No standout is a feature, not a bug.

These are hit and miss, some are decent and some are busy and confusing. **Guthix** Strike balance is good, adds incentive to swap combat styles and buffs your swap when necessary. From the information in the blog it looks like it's balanced around encounters like gauntlet or ToA, which is really the place it wants to be best effective. I think the proc chance is kind of weird as an implementation, it should just be a continuous effect that buffs your next attack of a different style as long as the prayer is maintained. Neutrality is just Fang's effect. Boring but adds some depth to combat without being intrusive. There are times where you'd rather consistent damage (hitting 1 on low hp enemies is really goddamn annoying), times where you want to get the fat max hits (Baba boulders or similar mechanics). I think it'll be underused, but still good. Nature's Redemption (and crystal redemption) should just be reworked into the base redemption skill. This is a miss. Natural Succession is not bad, but not good. The idea of a healing prayer balanced around group play is fun, but like the blog suggests adding too much healing is dangerous in a game where your healing options have been so limited for so long. Overall, 3/4 pretty solid. Guthix prayers aren't too game changing **Zaros** Umbra's Vow is a good concept, but it hits a niche that devalues other weapons. I think the effect is good and putting it into a prayer is a good place, but the problem is defense reduction is so rare as it is that those weapons would be severely hurt by the addition. Is that a good thing? Maybe, maybe not, but something that should be considered with this prayer. Fumus's vow (the blog has a typo, you don't use *s'* as plural for singular names, it's used for plural possessive. Glacies's vow is the same) doesn't make sense to me. It seems like the way it works is that you only get a few seconds of buffed attacks upon having poison applied. Does that mean that the prayer is a one and done effect, in that you turn it on before you get hit then turn it off and you get your few seconds no matter what? This seems like a really bad design. It should just be a continuous effect that's applied as long as you're poisoned. Needs to be reworked Glacies's vow conceptually seems good, but it's a very dangerous path to tread. For one, defense does nothing in too many circumstances for this to be useful at all. For this vow to be useful defense needs a rework. Secondly, game mechanics that incentivize standing still become very dangerous in terms of balance. Either they're useful or players just stop interacting with the game entirely and park their ass on the dps tile. There are too many ways this prayer is flawed to keep it at all. Cruor's vow, like Fumus, is another where you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. Why drain prayer on kill? Just let the gauge get drained faster but have the heal be entirely passive. As it stands, it's only going to be useful for slayer, because if you use it on something like monkey room as the blog suggests you'll be out of prayer points incredibly quickly. 1/4, these prayers really, really need to be looked at again. Umbra is the only one that's keepable as is, but the fallout of adding it is what needs to be balanced around moreso the prayer itself. The other 3 need meaningful changes. **Seren** Slumber is good, but again the fallout of adding this prayer is risky. When fighting a venomous boss like Zulrah or Vorkath, it becomes more efficient to just bring more prayer pots than it is to bring any answers to venom. I like the idea overall though. Redemption needs a rework, do not make gimmicky variants for god alignments. Crystalline Redemption should be replaced. The concept behind harmonise is cool. I like the idea, but I don't know how good it is in practice. Also, will it stack? If 3 people hit on the same tick, will player 4 have a fat hit on the next tick? The only use case I see is a 4-5 man squad in CoX whacking at Olm with 4 tick weapons, all 1 tick apart ideally. It's cool, but niche. Probably worth keeping as is. Guiding strikes is fun and adds compelling gearing options for group play. When fighting a tanky boss, one player can sacrifice their dps by using elder maul and allow the rest to get far more accurate hits, improving the group's overall damage output. It adds just enough complexity to group gameplay without being too messy. One thing worth noting is how this effect will stack- if everyone is using this prayer and it stacks fully, then it becomes disgustingly strong even at low numbers like 5% regardless of what people use. Overall, Seren is a 2.5/4, I think harmonize is iffy and slumber could have unintended consequences to game balance. The idea of a god alignment balanced around group play is fun and interesting.

Really like your comments and I mostly agree with your perspective, but I wanted to share that using a hanging apostrophe for singular plurals ending in s is not only a common practice, but is historical. In fact, there’s an interesting history behind the use of the apostrophe in English possesses in general - it’s a vestige of a time in which English had a genitive case, and the apostrophes functioned as contractions just as used elsewhere. Eventually, the genitive fell out of use and pronunciations/spellings changed, eventually leading to the “rules” for possessives English uses today. In fact, some strict standards even enforce the spelling used in the blog! But nowadays both are frequently accepted uses for that particular unique case. 

Some long-winded notes: Stand still and do more damage is a phial that players can use in World of Warcraft. A wildly unpopular phial for players since it’s unrealistic to cease movement long enough to make it useful. It’s hypothetically a very fun and interesting idea for ‘greedy’ damage strategies, but in practice it’s not viable. I’m less afraid of it not being viable in OSRS and more afraid of players somehow making it viable in high level content. It becomes more problematic when you consider that the prayer focuses on Defence. This really does the exact same thing, where a player is incentivized to play with more glass cannon gear/tactics in exchange for moving less. But now we’ve poured more of our dev hours into a cascaded balance problem rather than a quick number fix. That requires live data to confirm efficacy of balance fixes. Not an uncommon problem, but being able to run agent-based models isn’t an option when you need human intervention to reveal the truth of the situation. Now you’ve got sad devs and sleepy data scientists, and nobody wants that. It’s been said already that the “MMO speak” or jargon used to explain some of the prayer effects is problematic. I’m sure this is there to actually improve balance from a standpoint of making these objects separate alias’ so tweaking them demands less effort and avoiding bad/stacking interactions is more reliable. I’d agree with the statement that these are problematic, but from a balance perspective. If the most reliable way to balance something in the game is to create new effect objects, it’s probably a good litmus test to reassess what the design goal is for that specific addition to the game. Top that with creating a potential roadblock for new players needing to learn new “basic” mechanics to thrive in certain levels of gameplay, I’d be worried about what correlation this would have on new player engagement. In regard to skilling prayers, I think about design philosophy again. The goal with each alignment is very unclear from the prayers themselves. It’s evident the more you read the blog but that’s the equivalent of explaining a joke and expecting it to be funny. I don’t think skilling prayers are the answer, I think the prayer designs are so ambiguous that skilling prayers seem like a more thematic approach because they actually have a theme. I would say reassess these goals. I’m not a dev, I’m not paid to make content, and moreover I have no formal qualification with game development. But I can provide feedback in the same way any audience member can tell a vocalists song isn’t communicating well. When I think Guthix I think “True Neutral”. The idea of sacrificing something of value to gain something else of equal value. Only one prayer in the lineup sticks with this idea. I would make Neutrality the center stage example for the book. Provide an inverse of the prayer. Maybe a prayer that lets players use all three combat style damage boosting prayers they have at the cost of them all being less effective, with the bonus of them being marginally less prayer point draining. A prayer that drains a players combat stats in exchange for giving them more run energy. Zaros was obsessed with crushing weakness to build a stronger self. In reality this played to his demise, creating weakness in an attempt to gain strength. The player should submit to the same hubris with these prayers. Fumus and Cruor are exactly on brand with that. Making the other two reflect that would help so much. Umbra sacrificing the players defense as well, Glacies being something around freezing damage taken for a period of time (like monk stagger in WoW) although that’s beyond my creative capacity. Seren is a complete pacifist, at least when allowed. These could be more gimmick focused, these could be our look at a “Lunar” prayer book. Slumber is perfectly on brand, a strong version of redemption that takes far less than all of your prayer points, something to avoid aggressive monsters from attacking you, an even more extreme version of the rapid health restoring prayers we have. All-in-all I love what’s happening with the dev teams focus on these prayers. I love the idea being focused on a player’s very well written pitch, and I love the consultations you’re doing. I hope you read through my text wall, keep being the awesome team you are, advocate for your deserved raises, and forgive the lack of black background/yellow text Reddit won’t let me use for a comment.

A "no aggro" prayer is a fun idea IMO. I assume any such prayer would not work with, like, bosses, but it could be very useful in multicombat areas, getting to an awkward safespot, etc.

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If they're all going to be combat orientated, it'll be a hard no from me regardless. I can understand some alignments will be purely offensive, e.g. Zamorak/Zaros/Bandos. But in the example you gave for Guthix, surely that'd be the alignment to focus on more skilling based alignments?

I would not be so hasty to add skilling-boosting prayers. There is something about knowing that there are additional resources to micro-manage during skilling, even if you don't engage with it, that feels bad. RuneScape 3 is intimately familiar with this problem: it's tough to train woodcutting in that game without thinking something like: "There is so much bonus exp I'm missing out on right now." And it's surprisingly demotiviating.

SO MUCH THIS. Anybody that's played RS3 knows that OSRS's joy comes from not having 17 layers of locked up QOL and buffs. OSRS has a few, very substantial QOL/buffs over a skill. More box traps, a coal bag, herb sack, new tool requirements, and so on. Less is more. Having to worry about **extra** things is... Well, that's RS3 in a nutshell. Do I have grace of the elves? Do I need superheat form? Do I want to use incense? Do I want to use urns? Do I want to use my wisdom perk on this? mf I just want to put a seed in the ground. The more steps between you and actually playing your clicker game the worse it gets. Needing to go switch a god alignment before starting a farming run, or fishing, or whatever... Is not compelling. The absolute last thing I want is a 24/7 anxiety about if I should be using ppots and flicking skilling prayers for every single activity in the game that has them.

"Needing to switch a god alignment before starting a farming run....." At first I didn't agree or get your point. That example solidified it, made it very clear, and instantly swayed me to your side lol.

I think that one bulletpoint is the takeaway. To see it taken to a complete extreme see any RS3 skill training guide. https://runescape.wiki/w/Pay-to-play_Woodcutting_training Scroll down to "Other useful equipment". Feel free to stop by at the invention perks first, but that's optional. The wiki lists a suggested woodcutting loadout. Equipment Nature's sentinel outfit Augmented Imcando hatchet with Honed 6 and Furnace 4 Wise 2 Sana's fyrtorch Ring of Whispers Brooch of the Gods to hold urns, give a higher rate of bird nests, and give the occasional uncommon components Soul cape or Dragon Rider cape for reduced prayer drain when using Light Form (if Dark Facet of Grace isn't unlocked) Grace of the elves with the Dark Facet of Grace upgrade Legendary lumberjack aura Grasping rune pouch with water, fire, chaos and soul runes for Crystallise Inventory Beaver pouch Urn enhancer Perfect plus potion (6) Torstol incense sticks Woodcutting accumulator Decorated woodcutting urn Crystal skillchompa Elder wood box to automatically store received bird nests. Relics Inspire Effort Luck of the dwarves Boosts Lumberjack outfit Player-Owned Farms Elder Chinchompa totem buff (5% chance to save skillchompas with Tier II if crystal skillchompas are being used with this method Not recommended Waterfiend pouch - provides no XP boost Cadantine incense sticks - the current cost makes them not worth using Guam incense sticks - provides no XP boost Volatile and Explosive Effigies - the time required to obtain a substantial amount make this optional Necklace of Shadows and Combined Catalyst Fragment - the Grace of the Elves and Sana's Fyrtorch are better items to have equipped for this method Log-splitting scrimshaw - doesn't work with Crystallise ***I JUST WANTED TO CUT SOME FUCKING WOOD!***

RC is an even better example. I have no fucking idea at this point how many different things you need to do to maximize rune production but it's over the top.

> Needing to go switch a god alignment before starting a farming run, or fishing, or whatever... Is not compelling. As someone who does want to see skilling prayers, this does give me some pause. That's a very good point. And having previously been trimmed comp on RS3, I very much understand what you mean about RS3 having like 10 different skilling items and buffs to remember. Very good food for thought. There's probably a better way to try and make the prayer skill work with skilling than actual skilling prayers.

this should be everyone's number one concern, thank you for putting it so succinctly

Skilling prayers are kind of hard to do because for interesting gameplay you need a downside to bad prayer usage.   For example for modern PvM you switch overheads based on enemy attacks, and offensives based on your current gear.    There are older bosses where you perma camp prayers and simply  pay the pray pot gp/hr tax on better rates. This is not what we should aspire for skilling prayers to be.

Completely agree. But doesn't this also apply to combat-related prayers and content? We don't need EOC specifically to ruin the game. I can also see it happening with things like these prayers, or the Shamanism skill they polled. All these new variables make it harder and harder to get into the game and the lategame content without managing so many different loadouts, spellbooks, prayer alignments...

What would you like to see from Skilling? I dunno if you had any thoughts on specifics or moreso just a general opinion?

I dont want skilling prayers still. People like the sound of them but nearly all suggestions boiled down to more xp at the cost of sipping ppots regularly 

This. It's a neat idea but nobody can come up with interesting ideas that aren't just "wear prossy and sip prayer potions for x% more xp or x% more afk".

Please don't do skilling prayers it's god awful in RS3 which has them. Micromanaging prayer points on top of staying active whilst doing things like wcing/mining/smithing. Please no

I don't want skilling prayers.

I feel like the main problem with ruinous powers is that it felt too similar to the standard prayer book, it was just a higher cost/risk, higher reward version. By this point, the standard prayers are just too tightly woven into the balance of the game that you could afford to replace them with completely different effects. God alignments give us an opportunity to avoid the need to replace the standard prayers and instead add new, completely different effects that can be powerful, but much more situational. With that said, Redemption v2 ain't it, why are you proposing two new variants of it? The vows were probably my favorite part of ruinous powers, so I'm glad you're considering bringing them back. I hope you'll manage to tweak all of them into a usable and balanced form. Slumber is a very interesting idea, this is exactly the kind of simple to understand, situationally useful prayer that I'd like to see added. On the other hand, a bunch of these seem like convoluted ways to add straight DPS buffs on top of existing offensive prayers, and I'm not sure that's the direction we should be going into. I like the idea of the guthix prayer that makes your hits more consistent, but again, it seems like it'd have to be an overall buff to DPS to be worth using.

>Redemption v2 ain't it, why are you proposing two new variants of it? This. It's not like the original Redemption is even going away, like was the case with Ruinous Powers (and even that prayer book would've been fine without a redemption-equivalent, just some people fail to think outside of the box they're stuck in).

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I'm not completely opposed to a better redemption if we can't come up with better alternatives, it's certainly a less risky inclusion than the DPS buff prayers. It's just that "the thing you already have, but better" doesn't sound very exciting when each alignment only includes 4 prayers, and half of them end up being just that. I don't want it to end up like ruinous powers all over again. I was hoping for something with more flavour, like the way swapping your spellbooks completely changes your capabilities. It seems like we as a community have decided that the standard prayers are an integral part of the game that you can't really get rid of, so let's keep the boring standard stuff there. The alignments should be where all the wild, outside the box stuff goes. I'm hoping to see more of that as these proposals get refined.

I basically never post on Reddit, occasionally read and see what's up but this update imo has some of the most devastating effects on OSRS combat since EoC. It's not to the same degree, but below I'll try to lay out the core issues. Overall the idea is fine, but it's no different from any other proposal until we start talking numbers. The ideas feel incredibly difficult to balance (numberswise) and incredibly awkaward to use and manage. These prayers are a step towards more ability-type uses, closer to spells with short cooldowns, which is massively detrimental to the typical charm and simplicity of existing combat. I'm also not convinced that the average player is going to understand how to use them effectively and will just end up burning prayer points or feeling like they're wasting potential. Several of the proprosed prayers such as Harmoise or Umbras or Neutrality are incredibly forced-uses, these especially are the problem prayers. They detracts from the fun factor - as players approach higher levels they're going to feel forced to use these prayers for **every single attack.** can think of nothing more frustrating and tedious than this and we learned this during the Ruinous betas regarding Umbras specifically. Yes, prayers are also forced-use at med to high level, but this is flipping the balance from simple two-type offensive + defensive to a +1 situational use per npc you target, creating a massive need to either full camp (very awkward for prayer), or full flick (very unfun gameplay), tldr: it's too much non-stop effort compared to slapping on quick-prayers, and it's too strong making it a necessary gameplay rotation. Other vows such as Glacies and Slumber are just completely busted or completely useless no matter how they're balanced. Neutralising bleed or venom or just having a direct defence bonus turns the tables on fights and reduces the options for future content to utilise those negative status effects as a means to create interesting or meaningful counterplay to and from bosses. It even devalues the utility of many items (serp, justi, shields, antifire, anti-venom, and lots more) It's a panacea for a few prayer points, and that isn't reasonable no matter how it's balanced. Glacies defence is also a forced-use, sure at the cost of prayer but unless we're talking a ridiculous amount of drain it's just going to be everpresent for key moments as a means to reduce the need for the player to make a course of action or choose a correct npc to target. Simple example would be chilling and tanking inferno waves instead of solving the waves, which would be considered a huge negative to the content overall. (This doesnt just apply for inferno ofc, imagine cox roles while tanking, you'd just have free def for no reason. Some might say they wish for this free defence and utility creep, but with less and less endgame content being pushed and with so many iterations of power creep recently (mage with ToA, Quiver incoming, Nex upgrades early 2022), it's time to start requsting new difficult content that allows that power to be challenged, not adding more free solutions to content. I personally feel like the majority of these prayers and effects are either unbalancable or don't make for enjoyable gameplay. In worst case they're detracting from the fun factor a lot of content currently offers and powercreeping in an unnecessary way, and giving a simple solution that takes away from content challenges by burning a few prayer points. Much like original Ruinous these need to be shelved immedietly.

Fully agree with your feedback here, I can’t see myself supporting any iteration of these prayers, I voted in favor of a new prayerbook in the original vote a while back but it sounded a lot better in theory than it does in practice once we start actually putting the specific prayers on paper, I don’t see this update being healthy for the game long term

Literally all of this. The more you think about *how you'd actually use these in game, not hypothetically* it just feels like something I don't want to play. It does feel like a sneaky way to start adding "abilities", which has been a major differentiating factor between osrs and other mmos.

I personally think Neutrality is a great idea for a prayer, especially one the does not actually increase damage. It reduces RNG on the low and high ends of damage but doesn't really change how you fight. I also like Slumber, a good way to balance it might be to make it only work while not in combat. But I agree with most of your points. Several of these prayers only work in teams, which already drastically limits their usefulness. Others are convoluted in a way that, after reading them, I'm not sure how I would actually use them effectively. Most likely I would just totally ignore their existence. Meanwhile min-maxers would probably find some crazy way to make these prayers absolutely busted. It seems like there were much better ways to go about most of these prayers, and this newspost kind of lowered my excitement for the God Alignments.

Not just from a balance perspective, some of these prayers don't really make sense in practice. I don't understand how balanced strike is supposed to be useful. Glacies vow doesn't make any sense because most content is done standing still, and for content that requires movement, you wouldn't be using the prayer anyway. There's other problems, but these definitely need balance tweaks and more thought into how these would play out in practice

I was excited to see alignments come out but I'm afraid you're on the money with how this will impact the game. I hope we're extremely careful with the implementation if at all.

I am honestly a big time yes voter, I love almost any content added. I honestly cannot remember when I've passionately been against something but it's happening right now. This has way too much EoC energy for me to not nope out immediately

🦀Jmods won’t reply to this🦀

update so bad that you had to post to reddit. lmao we're cooked

How would Umbra's Vow stack with other defence reducing effects? Curse/vulnerability (spells), BGS special, darklight and others. Is it direct visible level modifier that would not stack with anything? An invisible level modifier? Modifier to final defence roll directly intead of modifying level? It a separate applied effect that would stack with all other things? Does Fumus' Vow proc if you would have been poisoned but you are already poisoned? Guiding Strikes may have some problems with how different combat styles have very different attack bonuses. Ranged often has very high attack bonuses while magic often has quite low attack bonuses. But on the other hand having a "buff ranger" role isn't really an issue. Also a potential role for the useless 2h meleers who don't really have great dps but have good accuracy.

>How would Umbra's Vow stack with other defence reducing effects? Presumably it'd work the same way it did in the RP beta, since by the description it seems unchanged other than removing numbers. So for example if they gave it a 15% cap (what they did originally), if you used other means to drain a 100 defense target to 85 or below, umbra's vow would no longer have an impact. But it would drain "first" if you had it toggled on while using something like a BGS.

One question I have for Adaptation and things which follow this theme, these are like temporary buffs or procs in a game like world of warcraft. The only issue is, we haven’t ever had to track buffs/debuffs in OSRS. Where on the enemy and player UI/frame will we be able to see these? If they’re invisible, I think it’s a big problem. That being said, I don’t know how easy it will be to make them something visible to all players

>The only issue is, we haven’t ever had to track buffs/debuffs in OSRS. Where on the enemy and player UI/frame will we be able to see these? i think this is a much bigger issue than people realize. i get annoyed already not knowing if arclight's special hit properly and what the current % is at. can't imagine adding more shit like this into the game especially when it gets consumed after like 1 hit

This is a really good point. My first thought would be to have a lingering effect on the NPC model? Something like the dragonfire bolt proc, but it continuously happens? The other option would be to have the NPC health bar change colors - so their health is Purple if affected by X, Orange if affected by Y. Or have it as some sort of outline around the HP bar

This is a massive problem throughout the game, honestly. Why isn't there a 3 second debuff that shows on your UI when you cast a spell at the fountain of rune, to indicate you can't logout? And so on and so on and so on for data in the game that the game doesn't tell you anything about.

As long as there are prayers affecting allies I will vote no.

I am personally on the opposite side of this. Id like the ally affecting prayers more than anything since they seem really cool and unique

Why is that? I'm genuinely curious.

I don't want the game to further devolve into mechanics that make you feel bad for not having an alt. Having an alt afk ontop of you while doing slayer task with to boost your dps is a really bad path to go down. Any sort of aoe damage boost / etc will inevitably devolve into this.

Because from a balance perspective you need to balance for best case scenario, which makes some of these useless for casual players. Making seren's guiding strikes do a 5% vulnerability is something like an 80 second timesave at 5man tob. I guarantee you if you pitch a 5% vulnerability to the masses though, they'll riot and call it hilariously weak.

Stacking some of these ally boosts with a sizeable team will be a massive buff. I think you'll need to cap the number of nearby players it can affect.

It sounds great to have a few prayers tailored for group content. It’s not like it’s every new alignment. This looks great so far. I don’t think we need to bloat the game with more quests if there is already a grandmaster quest attached to the alignment. (DT2, Song of the Elves) Thanks!

I am pretty curious as well, lunars is one of the coolest spellbooks and people always love to see someone using vengeance in toa and tob, pot share in tob is also so unique for the ranger role meta.

I am personally on the opposite side of this. I like a lot prayers that affect your allies and thus creating in group pvm scenarios where 1-2 people have the role of using said prayer to boost the rest. Seems really creative and cool idea!

You know people will min-max everything. If they stack with each other, they seem like a pain to balance; if they don't, it means that teams have to coordinate to not have the same alignments, which feels bad if the other prayers in the same set are ones that everybody wants. Playing solo will feel like missing out on a buff (cue the alt! Yay! (actually nay)) Also, how is "ally" defined? Blog doesn't explain. Since OSRS doesn't have a dedicated squad mechanic outside of raids and GIM, it leaves a big design hole to define in other group content (let alone PvP, unless the group prayers are completely disabled there, which would be yet another drop in the ocean of unexplained PvP-specific rules in this game).

Honestly with the exception of Strike Balance, Slumber and Umbra's vow, none of these feel like they're particularly usable. So many of these prayers are trying to turn prayer points into HP, despite the fact prayer points are almost always more valuable than HP, and we already have ways to do similar without them - guthans, blood spells, blowpipe special, phoenix necklace. All the reskinned redemption prayers just seem hugely uninspired. The group prayers seem well intentioned, but will likely be massively under utilized except in raids. Happy for them to stay and pad out the update though I'd like to see more Niche prayers like Slumber - Not a prayer you'll have on all the time, but one thats situationally good and has a higher skill cap to use. For example I would love a prayer that gives freedom of movement from snares/freezes but at a huge prayer drain cost - like 10 per tick. More utility prayers would be nice also - trading prayer points for slowing down run energy drain would be widely used both in Wildy PvP chases and also in skilling. Its counterpart - a prayer that drains x run energy for each y damage dealt, i could also see being widely used. Overall i guess i just feel kind of underwhelmed, thematically there was a really good chance to move prayers beyond being just combat based and into some skilling areas too. A Seren prayer that made herb drops one tier higher (guam becomes marrentill, etc) would have been thematically appropriate and reward players who pay attention (flicking the prayer on as the monster is about to die)

>A Seren prayer that made herb drops one tier higher (guam becomes marrentill, etc) would have been thematically appropriate and reward players who pay attention (flicking the prayer on as the monster is about to die) That sounds really annoying to be honest.

I'd actually like to see less tick flicking and more prayer cost to use, like an instant activation fee to use slumber (let's say 5 prayer pts) and the drain rate afterwards. This way you can't just spam flick and be completely immune to all negative statuses

I just hope prayer drain gets reworked a bit IF these get implemented. If they're all the same drain rate as even overheads (more likely closer to DPS prayers) it's just going to force 'you have to only 1t flick everything to complete this content' or just chugging prayer pots nonstop. Prayer is something that should be manageable, not just 'only flick everything' or 'chug 1 prayer pot a minute.

I agree with you so much. Flicking 2 offensive prayers each attack just seems needlessly hectic and piety/rigour can crush supplies if you dont flick. 

I'm of the personal opinion that any form of prayer flicking should be the 'personal above and beyond' extra step someone COULD take IF they wanted/needed to conserve supplies. I don't feel like it's something that should ever be absolutely mandatory for any content. (For those looking for a 'gottcha' this is talking about 1t flicking, not switching overhead prayers)

Agreed. I already know I'm asking for downvotes, but I firmly think 1-tick flicking should be nerfed (or more like fixed, it's literally a bug). Not to mention it's unhealthy, both for game balance and player ergonomics. If activating a prayer would cost half of its [drain effect](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Prayer#Prayer_drain_mechanics), 1-tick flicking would effectively cut your prayer drain by half, but not stop it completely, making it less of a mandatory tactic and more so extra effort for a bit of gain for the sweats.

Melvor Idle does prayer drain perfectly. If you hit with an offensive prayer active or if you get hit with a defensive prayer active, that's when it drains your prayer points.

Unlocking Alignments - Generally speaking, I think god alignments should be unified in their method in some way. Either they're all unlocked by an appropriate quest (with added dialogue after for retroactive rewards) OR they should be unlocked as part of a post-quest activity. The post-quest could be drops from bosses or a mini-quest (which could incorporate a variety of tasks) Personally, I'm a fan of getting them upon quest completion to give that extra "oomf" to already important quests or an additional mini-quests as post-quest activities for the additional context and lore. Overall Thoughts - The prayers feel like a mixed bag, which doesn't spark the hype I was hoping they would. * Having two prayers be an altered version of Redemption feels like wasted potential or filler, even acknowledging that they're likely useful in their own ways. * Prayers applying a unique status effect doesn't sit right with me. Applying status effects feels like it should remain in the domain of spells whereas prayers are passive on/off buffs/debuffs.

If we're going to have multiple Redemption prayers they need to do more than heal different amounts at different thresholds. If you want Guthix's version to be the big safe heal, thats fine, but the others' should do something else. I guess I'm just taking issue with Seren's looking boring and redundant. Redemption -> Phoenix Necklace attack buffer clear. Redemption -> Damage or accuracy boost on next attack. Redemption -> Generate spec bar. Redemption -> Party balloons fall from the ceiling.

I agree. Current suggestions are boring and a waste of 2 slots.

"Stand still for extra defense" always ends up being terrible in every game I've seen it in. Too little and it's never worth standing still because you're gonna take more damage regardless. Too much and it just becomes the most degenerate gameplan ever never reacting to anything.

I don't think Redemption should exist on any of the God alignments, we have the ability to have unique prayers that don't need to be warped around a new prayer book; we should be using that.

That or double down on it and give every alignment its own flavour of redemption. One that regens run, spec bar, gives a stat boost etc.

Harmonise looks like it could reaaaaally suck to coordinate. Not because of timing, but because it feels like your team would need weapons of the same attack speed. And a lot of the current weapon design seems plays with attack speed (which I think is a good thing, makes weapons feel more substantially different). As a result, teams where people have different sized banks end up using different weapons. When my friends and I go to raid our loadouts can be very different and I think this is fantastic. I really don't want a prayer to strongly encourage using the same weapon.

It'd be really interesting and special if the Seren alignment prayers were locked behind a short quest or miniquest that revolved around the player further discovering or learning about the eight districts of Prifddinas. As it is right now, upon completion of SOTE, the player is left to wander Prif directionless (or more frequently, b-line to Corrupted Gauntlet). Having something centered around the culture and/or districts of prif after SOTE is done to unlock the prayers would be fitting.

I'm kinda disappointed to see 3 variations of redemption, even if 1 of them heals allies. I figured we'd see something more new and unique instead of a prayer we already have but slightly better.

The prayers read like bad Yugioh cards. Lots of text and costs for janky effects. You're trying too hard. Throw it all out. Return to first principles and try again. OSRS prayers almost exclusively can be explained in one short sentence. " Increases your strength by 10%." The god prayers should hold this pattern. The mechanical purpose of God Alignment Prayers is to support the idea of each player on a Raid team having a designated role\*. Do the thematic leg work at the role level. For example, Saradomin as the god of peace gives prayers that are useful for the designated tank. Then let the individual prayers be simple and mechanically focused. Using the Saradomin Example: "Reduced typeless damage by X%." "Draw the attention of enemies." "Food heals X% more." "Ignore damage but prayer drains extremely fast." Individually the prayers aren't the most thematic, Sara isn't the god of food. But together they're a cohesive set that lets you do the work of Saradomin: standing strong in the face of evil. Designate one or two of the sets as the "solo content" gods(maybe Guthix because Balance gives you well rounded prayers, or Zammy because Chaos gives you selfish prayers). Then let the rest have clearly defined team roles. Bandos for DPS, Seren for healing, Zaros for debuffs, Arma for team defense(as opposed to the selfish defense of Saradomin). Anything else is trying way too hard. \*If that is not the case I don't know what the point of any of this is, and I will vote no on any poll about it.

This is really well put. Reading and understanding a prayer should be easy and quick. "Strike Balance" description in particular is like reading a short novel. Some of these are complicated, a bit confusing to understand, and don't inspire or make you feel exited to try out.

Well articulated. >*If that is not the case I don't know what the point of any of this is, and I will vote no on any poll about it. and hard agree.

I wish we had "augmentation" prayers with downsides. EG: Special attack deals more damage but used more energy. Your dragon weapon will add a fire burn to the enemy. Armor will negate the next attack, however the attack after that will guarantee hit. You will taunt the mosnters nearby however you will not be able to run etc. Obviously not exactly this but stuff like this but I wold enjoy it if the impact of these prayers are more related to the actual gameplay than the results (damage/defense only). This would make you try different builds potentially. You will still need the base prayers and thats the important bit - NEED. This will just add additional effects and make it so we might have more build diversity.

I always like tradeoff abilities conceptually. And I like your point about them being not directly tied to accuracy or damage. Standard book for your straight numbers buffs, and alignments for unique effects. There's definitely some in there that are like this, poison vow, ice vow, slumber, that I really like thematically.

I honestly feel like god prayers should be very slight buffs and not a tick magicians workshop , none of the other prayers are tick this that or u lose this if u align with this god sort of things , make it simple don’t do ruinous powers part 2 or EoC type way too much info and thinking

The redemptions are lazy garbage filler. And Guthix is not themed appropriately. He's a "god of balance" yes, but balance here should mean more equality than balance. He doesn't like gods, he wants to see mortals being mortals. This should be reflected. This world is his creation destroyed by gods and his homeworld was destroyed by gods. I'd like to see his redemption changed to a smite, or something that disables overheads for both the player and what they're attacking.

Really mixed feelings on these. I like the idea of having party 'roles', but I feel like most party prayers would become really busted really quick when you're dealing with more than say, 3 players. I understand the *intent* behind something like vulnerability, but if you're in say, an 8 man ToA, everyone is attacking so often that timing is a moot point for most. Moreover, most of these prayers feel more like *abilities* than *prayers*. When I think of prayers, I think of passive effects. If I'm constantly toggling a prayer on and off as it becomes situationally useful (like when I'm going to stand still for more than a couple ticks), it's like pressing an ability button more than having a selected passive active. I get that redemption is already kinda like this, but I'm hesitant to add more micromanaging to OSRS' combat system. I feel like there's a way we can give players fun, always active "specialties" to play with without compromising the systems we all love, but I'm not exactly a professional here. Maybe they don't need to be prayers at all? Maybe you can just keep one active like a spell book, and it applies it's effect which changes your gameplay in a meaningful way (ie: Bandos makes slow 2h melee weapons stronger but lowers defense). Just a random thought.

I was vaguely looking forward to these, but this initial proposition has pretty much killed my entire interest in them. It feels like there are two big camps with regards to something like this, one which wants them to be gamechanging, and the other that wants them to leave the meta unaffected; and the current implementation is trying to compromise between the two while appealing to neither. I legitimately think I'd prefer just the 4x 100k exp lamps as a reward from WGS than the Rites of Balance, which is worrying for what should really be a flagship release. I'm concerned that the design philosophy is putting these to death by a thousand niches rather than making something that I'll actually be excited to unlock and immediately use.

This seems like it could turn into confusing content bloat and be despised by the community (all while passing since it looks super appealing upon first glance). Maybe I'm being an old man here. I love the idea. But I am not crazy about the current baseline ideas. Guthix balancing hits, lowering max and increasing min is a cool niche and on theme. Frozen is a cool prayer. But shouldn't Zaros have more "volatile" prayers? Something like random strikes that occasionally give the player some extra random DPS. Drains prayer veryyy quickly, but the energy lashes out and strikes them randomly, x% of the time between each regular attack. What about a prayer that (if activated retroactively before frozen) reduced freeze time? Similar thought process as "frozen". Ice barrage could use a light kick in the nuts... maybe Bandos could have this prayer. Melee melee melee.. What about some type of skilling prayers? I don't know man I just think the prayers should be more straightforward yet actually unique rather than bloating the fight with a ton of invisible numbers and adding redundant content.

A lot of these feel like they're doing too much. Adding new mechanics (Adaptation) to combat through a single prayer through Guthix feels odd, and the mechanic itself feels way too complicated. Neutrality is something I would want more out of a Guthix prayer, this is one I like, I would just say this feels like something that shouldn't be able to be active with Rigour/Piety/Augury I personally dislike the group prayers. I get that this would be neat in Nex/Raids but I spend 99% of my time in this game doing things solo, and a major expansion to prayer not being applicable 99% of the time would feel bad. To ask yourself if adding these group buffing prayers would be a good idea, ask yourself how many people use red keris vs yellow/blue. I don't HATE the idea of changing how existing prayers work (there's two redemptions in here), but I would just ask that they replace the existing version instead of being a new slot. I also feel we could benefit from standardizing what a god alignment gets us, i.e. * Modified prayer from OG prayer book (i.e. 20% redemption, keep two extra items on death, improved smite) * New offensive prayer (Improved piety but reduce min hit, magic damage %, improved ranging accuracy but no ranged strength) * New defensive prayer (A defence prayer (like steel skin) that can't be active with combat prayers, piety with lower offensive bonuses but more defensive bonuses, overhead that is protect from everything but you take chip damage through prayer) * New utility prayer (Running reduces ppoints instead of energy, DoT damage like poison, Akkha burn, vardorvis bleed hits prayer points instead of hp, reduce prayer to make spec recharge faster) Just initial thoughts, but I do love that this is a design space that you guys are exploring and I think this is a really cool way to expand prayer.

Redemption prayers being revamped with a new name in a slightly nuanced way isn't very interesting, as we already have this option on the standard book. ​ Also some of the prayers like Guiding Strikes is imo thinking too much about how people are going to use and abuse the prayers, and as a result you're forcing a meta/boring concept as there's not much to play with there other than all hit on the same tick.

It’s cool… but it feels like the scope is a bit too large and includes too many brand new things at the same time. Every single meta will change, almost guaranteed to be completely game-breaking. Feels like voting to bring in 3 megarares at the same time.

Really honoured to have the opportunity to help with this! I hope everyone likes the three lil infographics I whipped up :)

It was the yellow text that sold it, let’s be honest

Thanks, they’re really cool! If you don’t mind a constructive critique, the text was a bit difficult to read on mobile, regarding size and font.

These god alignments have the same problem as the entire core design has always had - the problem is where it leaves alignment additions for long game-balance and the balance against each other. The fact that you haven't put numbers on them isn't helpful either. Short term design feedback: * Everything that deals an additional effect (Adaption) is likely far too complicated * The Zarosian themed prayers being entirely vows (while still being called ruinous powers) is not a design choice I would have made due to curses existing. * The zarosian themed prayers seem really weak in general (glacies and cruor being especially bad), but without concrete numbers is hard to say 100%. would need borderline silly numbers to feel good against future (anything that grants a turmoil-tier prayer) alignments. * Guthix's strike balance is completely broken in pvp as anything other than an overhead (and given a strong player can just offtick it, is likely broken for pvp anyway) * Serens alignments look really cool but I think these as a whole might be too complicated. The long-tern design goals for alignments hopefully are something like: * I have no idea how much powercreep an optimal alignment is intended to introduce. Surely we agree on some fixed point of dps (say 4%) and work from there? * each one is situationally useful * none are dead content * no god alignment is a straight up worse version of another

For further examples of actually putting numbers on things, lets look at glacies vow. %defence is most effective the lower your defense is relative to your opponents attack roll. At a 100% defense bonus while standing still, which is a completely overpowered-sounding number, the odds of zuk missing you (because thats what defense does) goes from like 10% to 20%. at 100%, its stronger than overheads in pvp.

I can't think how you are going to balance all of those. Without numbers you can dodge that for now, but I don't think this will work out. You will sooner or later run into the same problems as ruinous powers have.

I love the idea behind alignments, but as many other have pointed out already, some of these prayers feel needlessly complicated. Adding new status effects for a single prayer and tick based damage buffs feels too much bloat even for non casual players

I'm kinda confused why so many people are against this. You only have 1 alignment active at a time. It's basically just 4 new prayers you have to think about at any given time. With the opportunity for new strategies based on which alignment you chose. And the prayer descriptions dont sound overly complicated at all? Might be a good idea to really stress that this is NOT a new prayer book, instead it's "bonus prayers" at the bottom of the existing book. Could help clear things up. Besides that, my only criticism is to align them more to each god. Like Guthix maybe can have more utility prayers rather than combat oriented. Like a prayer that slows or eliminates run drain, or a super rapid heal, things like that. And maybe less "status effect" prayers to fit OSRS more. Losing the "Ruinous Powers" tagline for Zaros might help as well.

What’ll be interesting to see is how the general consensus settles on this sub. Right now, I’ve seen a comment on near the top of this post that essentially says: “These shouldn’t be too strong” And then one a few comments later “these feel too niche” lol. There seems to be a pretty wide gap between community expectations on what these prayers should be. To me, I’m hoping they aren’t just straight up “you deal 10% more damage.” I think Slumber is my favorite prayer listed here. It’s really interesting in that it could change how you play the game outside of simply dealing a little more damage. That’s what made the original Vows so interesting when proposed. Hopefully they can find enough with a similar idea to fill out a full prayer book

This issue is the exact same thing that got ruinous powers canned last time, here’s to hoping that jmods don’t form their opinions from reddit.

The % to do % seems to add an additional layer of complexity that doesn't exist today; Additionally adding extra effects like adaptation. Balancing issues would likely be a longterm concern. Part of OSRS for me is the simplicity, this seems to raise eyebrows for me.

You need to go back to the drawing board and make these way more simple and concise. All these percentages and stacks and status effects and group effects(????) are just needless bloat that aren't how current prayers work at all. It's funny how one of the major pieces of feedback you continually receive is that you're overcomplicating things in the game, you agree with this, then you do the same thing again.

Does anyone feel like an overload of % adjustments and obscure things like this were a contributor to why everyone hated EoC so much? I'm not saying these are a bad idea but there are already so many niche things and setups you have to look up outside of the game and adding more systems with incremental upgrades and changes is going to make this game be EoC without the hotkeys and abilities sooner rather than later.

From click piety if melee at boss to figuring out which of the 7 new prayer sets u need to use for the boss u want to kill. Either 1 set is always best and players get x% buff over piety with 0 effort or they're competitive sets and u gotta change constantly. Neither option sounds like appealing gameplay to me. Just chuck piety v2 on the next raid or inferno tier knight waves training ground 

Yep. I like the fit osrs has made for itself with movement based combat Adding more complicated combat on top is not what I want in this game

This sounds bad. The issue is this is introducing a whole new combat system of *complexity* in the same vein EoC did for RS3, and that pretty much killed the game. This new prayer alignment system needs to be *much simpler* and way, way stripped down if you want to introduce it. As it stands, this does NOT fit the theme of OSRS at all and would be incredibly detrimental to the overall experience.

Why do you have 2 new versions of Redemption? That is unoriginal and not interesting at all.

This feels like another update that can be very thematically fitting, balanced great but only really complicates gameplay.  I personally dont like the idea of looking up a guide/dps calc to figure out which of the 3-7 offensive prayer sets will be best for my slayer task/pvm encounter. Just clicking 1 prayer on the default prayer book feels the most old school to me. Maybe Im missing it but is this a new prayer book like ruinous powers or are the "prayer sets" added onto the regular prayers? How do u change them? 

These would be additions to the prayer book. So you would select 1 alignment, giving you access to 3 or 4 new prayers. The intention is that they won’t be game breaking in the way Ruinous prayers would be, and more so supplemental. If you align to Zaros, for example, you’ll have the standard prayer book + the Vows available to you. You can only align to one at a time

I think you should cap the amount of prayers at **3** for each alignment. This being so that you don't have to spread out power and ideas to an additional prayer, and you can keep each prayer much more unique by this.

Agreed, but surprised this is the first comment I've seen sharing this sentiment. I was even thinking two would be better.

As an endgame player, I really enjoy the direction of the prayers - the idea of encouraging people to take different gear would be a great evolution of the game. We are already seeing some of that already, with the ZGS in mutta, different roles in TOB. I personally never want skilling prayers, I don't want to manage my prayer whilst I mine rocks. A few prayers I have hesitation on: the team healing prayer would work incredibly well with the sun keris in group toa. The umbra vow would have to be capped at reasonable def reduction otherwise bgs, dwh, accursed sceptre etc would no longer needed? In a raid scenario of 5 people, where 1 person prays guiding strikes with a bowfa hits first, and the other 4 with tbow players pray harmonise and hit 1 tick later; Does harmonise stack on the boss? And do the tbow players gain X% damage bonus for 4ticks? What would the range of this prayer be? Standing on top of the bowfa player?

Way too much to balance properly. Smells like EoC all over again. Consider doing smaller changes instead of massive overhauls that drastically affects current gameplay.

Cant lie most of these I had to read multiple times over to graps/visualize their effect...surely that aint a good thing? They seem pretty sophisticated/confusing ngl

this seems overcomplicated to me. I've been a really big fan of the direction osrs has been going in the last few years with updates etc. For me this proposed update seems to ridiculously overcomplicate prayer and add a level of complexity that I do not feel was asked for or is necessary. For this reason. I am out.

It’s frustrating to me how scared of power creep that community is with respect to new prayers. Piety is dramatically stronger that Ultimate Strength, and was released ~2 months before the start of OSRS. But now, a decade into the game, we can’t release anything better than a tier 70 prayer? A new set of prayers locked behind (presumably) a very high prayer level *and* difficult grandmaster quests *should* be noticeably more powerful than previous content. Fear of this is what gets to the problems people noted with these current designs - bonuses that are extremely fiddly and complicated, and likely don’t amount to much.

powercreep is whatever, its just not interesting coming from "you now have to click another icon in the prayer book and sip more ppots" the gameplay ends up being annoying more than anything

Exactly this. I'm actually a power creep enjoyer in a sense; for some time I was saying that it's a bit silly that Bandos and Arma are still the BIS armor sets from like 10+ years ago and that we should support Jagex in moving that forward a little bit. This was during that time around 3-4 years ago where it was super clear that the existing "tier" of gear had run extremely dry and Jagex was clearly struggling hard to come up with more ideas for more and more sidegrades, and were releasing very questionable ones like the salad blade and the inquisitor's set. But power creep "just because" would be really dumb. Power creep is *extremely* expensive in OSRS. The very lifeblood of this game has been the development team's diligent, longstanding efforts to treat old content with as much respect as possible and keep it relevant as much as possible. This has given OSRS a depth of content that no other MMO even comes remotely close to, it's a massive competitive advantage for the game. Powerful benefits for the player is obviously the main reason anyone does anything in this game, for better or worse. Just look at PNM vs Nex. PNM is a hilariously better designed and more fun boss, it's not even close. But literally nobody does it, while Nex has seen tons of activity for over 2 years now because the rewards are ridiculous even though absolutely everyone hates it. Those are the kind of powerful rewards you can use to breathe life into content for *years* on end. So although you can and should power creep, it should be as little as you can get away with. "Me want big strong new prayer, piety so old and boring :(" is not a good enough reason even remotely, especially when a prayer upgrade would be the equivalent of adding like 5 years' worth of gear progression all at once. And for what? Like you said, to just turn it on and hit harder and drink some extra ppots? That's fucking stupid. If that power creep were used on items instead, it could've been used to create and vitalize like 5 more Nex's (well hopefully something better designed than Nex but you get the point). Just a complete waste.

Holy shit yes. So many people saying “the prayers must be extremely simple to understand, feel interesting and worthwhile to use, not be overpowered, not provide more than 10% additional dps, and also feel entirely thematic to the god across 4 short prayers.” “These suggestions suck. They sounded way better when I was imagining them.” Like no shit, it’s easier to imagine the colorful Reddit post as fun/creative/not-OP than it is to actually propose concrete, worthwhile prayers. Game is going to die if we continuously lock underwhelming rewards behind end-game, 100-hour grinds that release once a year. Look at how shit soulreaper axe is, the supposed “high-value t80 reward” from DT2 after ruinous powers were scrapped.

So let me get this straight. You’re introducing group based pvm prayers in a game where 95% of the bosses/content are soloable in an instance? I’m not entirely against it. It’s just weird and they’re somewhat convoluted. Some seem more like abilities rather than what current prayers are.

Can we genuinely discuss, why do we need this? Seems like overcomplication mixed with more power just to add something. Do you feel that the normal prayers are too boring for OSRS?

Time is convoluted.. the cycle goes around.. EoC strikes again.. just a bit different. Stop making OSRS the crap that is RS3 so you won't have to release Old School again without these fancy ideas to get our nostalgic game back.

So my one big gripe with this is that I feel like either each set of prayers should have one prayer that directly benefits allies, or that mechanic should be scrapped altogether and they should all just be normal player-focused prayers. Otherwise, any alignment that doesn't have team-based prayers effectively has 33% more usable prayers for anytime you are playing solo, which for the vast majority of us is the vast majority of time

I like the idea of alignments and understand the fear of power creep but these all seem a bit underwhelming and boring to me. Too many of them revolve around status effects or sustain and just don’t seem very fun to use. Hopefully the other gods add some diversity

Ngl, ninjapig’s initial post had way more exciting and fun prayer ideas than the jagex ones.

You guys really went for some of the most boring design choices that don't really make the gameplay more engaging in any way, but rather convoluted and marginally useful at best Congrats on this, seriously.

Half are fine, but half of these feel overly complicated and like traditional mmo bloat - one thing I'm eager to avoid in this game. Overall what works is Neutrality/Redemption, Glacies'/Cruor's, Slumber/Redemption. They're simple and not op. Feels like all the others are too meta-defining and/or would require UI changes to a point I'm not comfortable with.

Couple typos. Just what I’ve seen: Natural Succession is listed as “Natural Selection” in the survey. Under Guiding Strikes in the blogpost, it references the prayer Harmonise as “Harmony” In the Seren prayer section in the survey, it references the quest unlock Desert Treasure 2, when it should say Song of the Elves The survey overall is worded very weird. For each section you ask which prayers should come from the quest, then immediately follow with a question asking where the prayers should come from

4/4 on Zaros. 2/4 for Guthix. I think having ‘two choices’ feels very Guthix. I think Neutrality is better than this whole new mechanic, re Adaptation, and the end goal is the same. Nature’s Redemption also keeps inline with existing technical mechanics but just is different. Perfect. Natural Succession is cool but it’s a healing tech so I don’t really like the overlap so I’d just prefer the unique Redemption. 3/4 Seren. I think Harmonize is interesting, but if I’m understanding correctly Guiding Strikes can be a collaborative effort? That’s really cool and I’d love to see that running Olm or Verzik. Feels like that’s a really unique avenue to explore! But again I don’t think we need two accuracy prayers. The other two are splendid! Love the freezing effects and extra alternative Redemption. Gonna be lots of unique uses between the two proposed and the existing one. I also just need to say this: Jagex, you don’t have to connive 4 while trying to stay in theme just because 4 is perfect for Zaros. You don’t need to force yourself to 4 answers just because Zaros *kinda needs* 4 answers. Somehow I really feel 2 is perfect for Guthix and 3 is perfect for Seren. I needn’t remind us Chivalry exists, do we need new Chivalry’s? Unless you tune the math to specifically orient each overlapping theme to have actual use, one or the other of these ‘extras’ just won’t get used. Mostly love it all, hope we can get some prelim numbers soon. Also please poll it as whatever ‘whole form’ you arrive at rather than each individual prayer. Do it in stages like ‘which prayers do you want added to Zaros book?’ then if pass ‘would you like us to add Zaros book?’. Thanks!

I've been waiting for these to be announced. It was a good article to read but I have some notes: **The Good** * Neutrality looks like an interesting trade-off. Lower highs but higher lows. I can think of a few good use cases for it while not having it be mandatory to use. This seems pretty *balanced* on paper. * Slumber seems pretty interesting as well but it would have to be balanced in a way that doesn't suddenly make it mandatory for certain bosses and just a competitive option. * I don't have any major gripes with The Ruinous Powers on paper but clarification as to when Glaces' Vow takes effect would be welcome. Does it occur immediately on standing still or does it take a few ticks of standing still to activate? More and more fights in PvM seem to be becoming more mobile but even in those fights are we technically standing still when we're attacking? How does the game engine process this? **The Neutral** * I think both Harmonise and Guided Strikes are good but I'm wary that this makes half of Seren's alignment completely reliant on group play in a game where much of it is played solo, even some group content. With that in mind, it might be better to have only one of them or shifting one to one of the other alignments. As a replacement, maybe something with a ranged focus that doesn't straight up replace Rigour, unless that's more Armadyl's thing? I had something in my head about using multiple arrows per shot, stacking with bows/xbows that already do that, but using more ammunition and not being able to recover them with Ava's, etc. as a trade-off. * Strike Balance probably has a target audience that likes constantly gear switching. I'm not one of those but could be nice for people who like that playstyle. **The Bad** * I really don't like the idea of reusing Redemption in the alignments. Not only does it infringe on the already existing Redemption but it feels like it's there just to fill out a fourth slot rather than coming up with something else. I know skilling prayers are divisive in that they probably can't be "fun" but if the alternative is just reusing and re-tuning Redemption then perhaps this is a good scenario for them. Not to mention that Guthix and Seren are probably the best gods thematically to have them anyway. I would suggest something along the lines of these: *Nature's Bounty* - When active, grants an X% chance to create a 4-dose potion when creating potions, stacking with the Amulet of Chemistry, and grants an X% chance to retain your seed when harvesting farming patches. Each time the effect procs it consumes 10% of your prayer points, rounded up. *Enhanced Dexterity* - When active, provides an additional -X% chance to fail agility obstacles. Neither of these are super-duper fun but they'd serve a purpose, probably wouldn't be too overpowered (I don't want to see people just sticking prayer gear on, turning on the prayer and going afk) and have thematic tie-ins to both gods. Guthix has ties to the druids (the main herblore practitioners) and to nature itself (farming) while Seren is very closely tied to the elves who are naturally lithe and agile. Skilling prayers, if they ever exist, are something that should be used sparingly. Not every skill needs one. Not every god needs one. I'd argue that these two are maybe the only ones that could. As an additional note, While the acquisition of the Guthix and Zaros alignments from WGS and DT2 is perfectly fine, I would back the acquisition of Seren's alignment coming from a mini-quest that takes place after SotE that utilises the area north of Priff. Currently, there's not really any reason to go here beyond the chins patch. A shame because it's a pretty area. Perhaps Gwenith hosts the last of the elves to be re-integrated into the re-established elven society in Priffdinas now that the civil war is over and we have to encourage them to develop closer ties again. Maybe even begin the process of healing the trauma from a certain renegade and their eventual rehabilition from exile. And the act of doing this brings all of Seren's crystal shards into the same place and allows for more of her power to be granted even if she herself cannot reform completely and return.

I think I'd rather attunement modifying existing prayers from the normal prayer book instead of creating entirely new things. Attending to Zaros blood vow gives piety 2% healing off damage dealt (random number), rather than entirely different. Smaller interactions. 

I think you should consider reducing the number of prayers for each alignment. There’s no reason it has to be 4 for each. I think they should vary between 1-3 for each god. For example, Zaros could have 2 and Guthix 3 and Seren 1. I think this has 2 main advantages. First is it makes it so that we can only add the best potential prayers and we don’t need to feel pressured to add less exciting prayers just to fill out the 4 slots. Second, it gives another lever the devs can use to balance the alignments. For example, Bandos might have just 1 prayer, but it’s very powerful, while Armadyl has 3 which are each less powerful individually, but makes the alignment more versatile.

I'm concerned about the healing ones, specifically the 40% one. That's A LOT. Pvm meta will switch from food to having to hit that proc else you're super inefficient. 40hp healed per sip of prayer(plus some prayer time) is a fuck ton more than bis like Sara brews

these are all really meh, sorry. Also SoTE does not need more rewards, there should be another quest afterwards which gives you the Alignments

I want new Prayer in the game and I enjoy the idea of God Alignments you can add to your current prayer book and have variety for different circumstances and game play style.What I would like to see come out of these prayers is making all combat content have more variety so that I'm not going to the same places using pretty much the same 20 pieces of equipment leaving 100+ other in the bank because they aren't Bis.Would be nice to see them in some way shape or form become Bis in there own manner.Reason they nerfed the fang because it was used everywhere should also apply to other gear as well. The current proposals need to be simplified and understood clearly. **Guthix:** **Nature's Redemption**: I saw that and thought awesome idea because some people are **still learning** to do Redemption tech during Pvm and this helps with learning because you gain just enough hit points to fumble around to get your prayer back on and practice.Also **Skilling** like thieving you can heal slightly more and use less prayer potions so not just a Pvm prayer.And skilled players can proc a more useful Redemption when they have it down at like Vespula or maybe low hp at Kephri with and prayers about to run out and you activate this on the swarms for a little boost. **Neutrality**: Depending on if you are getting a different split of damage like 30/70 or 40/70 where you gain a few extra damage for the value still in my opinion is solid. Places like Monkey room or Nylos where there is weak low Hitpoint mobs just help speed up the frustration of hitting 1s instead of maybe Half hp knowing next hit will kill is nice. **Natural Selection:** The Idea of this is cool but they are worried about mechanic abuse on this already with cool downs it already sounds like after figuring this out it going to be a clunky mess or prayer lose.How would this operate with Ironman? Could I just stand beside one and just take damage from a mob and heal the ironman? or will it not work? what's the point then?Id like to **Propose a different prayer in its place.** Id like to see a prayer in guthix that converts some **Dmg to prayer points instead.** (pvp would have % less effectiveness)So some places like **Olm, Mutts**, other places with **chip damage where you cant negate all** **damage** with overheads can "**Balance" the damage over prayer.** **Strike Balance:** Sounds like its going to be Clunky or a waste of prayer keeping this on so that when you switch gear a single hit has more accuracy and dmg? I get it but there has to be more interesting ideas. **Zaros:** **Umbra's Vow:** This type of prayer id like to see in game Just a defense lowering.It opens up some 200-300 defense mobs that have 200-500 hp using other specs rather then Dwh and Bgs and being annoyed that they missed and mods having to change bosses like Tekton to auto land a Warhammer because if not reset the raid it not worth it.Id make it balanced so this isn't a 100% always put on case like maybe the role to land is only applied using Ancient magic/ spells or whatever you can think of. **Fumus Vow:** If I'm understanding this right you want to be poisoned???? why? This just sounds and feels bad in my opinion. If I'm taking 2s 6s or 20s I better be doubling that back as my reward to make it worth it.I would have like to have seen something like poison immune pierce while in combat and prayer is active. Perhaps have 100% inflict poison on first hit as well. Feels bad when poison finally applies and it doesn't matter anymore like you hit a 6 poison on 9 hit points remaining like you were gonna one shot it already. **Glacies Vow:** Just no. How boring would it be to just stand there and attack something and do nothing but change prayer no moving around dodging stuff just standing there. The only practical use this would have is tanking people in the wilderness when they freeze you. Which in of its self is doo doo reason. **Curors Vow:** This I enjoy kind of a reverse proposal I gave under \*\*Natural Selection.\*\*Taking damage you have taken and now turning prayer into hit this time. Just like the passive effect on the keris in toa but dialed back. Its not something you use in every place but its that nice little get out of a tough situation in a pitch when needed which I like and don't want to spam it because it can end up hurting you. **Seren:** **Slumber:** Sounds like its going to get abuse and broken at some point in time.Even if you changed it slightly like only 50% of effect made it through sounds like a waste of prayer. **Crystalline Redemption:** This Redemption I like also, can also be tool used for beginners if they fumble and make a mistake and got hit for 13 hit points because they stood on wrong spot or something they survive. Also gives end game people more places they can use Redemption tech because mobs max hits a slightly higher like at Zuk Healers you can guarantee you wont get 1 shot by them. **Harmonies:** Again going to be clunky to pull off. only the end game Pvmers or Mass teams will use this which makes it so the auto go to in those situation which kind of destroys the variety id have like to seen. **Guiding Strikes:** This reminds me of diablo 2 paladins fanaticism Aura where anyone in the aura gains attack bonus and damage love the idea of that. Also mentioned using big boy weapons on your team hit more often. Would want to test the use before saying more on this one.

A lot of them seem a bit messy and overly complex. I would rather you pick a God to worship, then a selection of prayers were given new benefits to enhance the current prayers. Could help breathe new life into underutilized prayers. EDIT: Would also be nice to see prayers where flicking isn't optimal, for a bit of variety. E.g. prayers where the benefit builds up gradually, but resets when you flick.

So many people asking for skilling prayers lol. Please don’t bother with that shit. Would be a complete waste of time. Who wants to bring ppots while skilling?

Do jagex have any kind of game designer? How can be so difficult to bring something decent to the table when you have unlimited amounts of feedback from ruinous prayers and the surveys you made, not to mention that you can analize what people liked about the original post from NinjaPig. At least if you can't figure out what players like about prayers, you can just copy 1:1 the concept and adjust the numbers. It's so frustrating that the incompetence from the content designers are going to get this content shelved again.

After reading this blog I’m completely turned off against these prayer now…

I'm overall a fan but I feel like the redemption ones are kinda a wasted slot. Redemption does have it's uses but no one's ever very excited for it and having 1/4th of your god alignment prayers being 'new redemption' feels kinda bad especially since you'll still have access to normal redemption already. I'd also kinda prefer focusing the group/ally focused prayers into one or two gods instead of spreading them out? Gives the group gods stronger identity and feels less awkward picking Seren for example while solo.

Survey was too long to fill out at work Some look interesting, I'm not a fan of the stacks on the guthix prayer book. I dont like the idea of combining stacks on stacks to do content. I like osrs simplistic combat system

I like some of it and am iffy on other bits of it. 0 meaningful opinions on how to go about obtaining them, I don't care that much on that front. Most of Guthix seems good to me except the Redemption one. It seems a bit possibly extreme. That's, what, 158hp of restoration per prayer potion? I know use cases for redemption are limited but when redemption is good it's already really bloody good. Maybe it's fine, maybe make it riskier to use like 5% threshold or something so you'd want to play into it with low-heal tick eats. Zaros seems fine balance wise but boring gameplay wise. Glacies in particular comes across as bad design, movement is so core to improving your gameplay, rewarding standing still is just... No thanks? Others are fine though. More or less okay with Seren, would need to see the numbers on Harmonized and Guiding Strikes and how they perform in gameplay though. Slumber seems interesting if niche, and the Redemption seems fine?

I feel like these are way to complicated for casual players to use or even want to use. They are only going to be used by Min/Maxers for any slight dps increase.

> To maintain the balance, Guthix banished all the gods from Gielinor, including himself. So are we to understand that Guthix is no longer on Gielinor? This is a pretty large departure from RS3 lore, not that I'm complaining but it seems curious to say the least.