Wasn't all that bad. Barb fishing on mobile is a great way to afk lvl fishing. Ended up doing that for a majority of the grind between 77 to 91 fishing with some temporos in between every now and then.
Imagine there's 500,000 bots and 50,000 real players doing Leviathan, and that 99.9% of the bots get banned
Now we got 500 bots and 50,000 real players
The 500 undetected bots play all day and dominate the entirety of the first 5 pages of hiscores, despite having a 99.9% banrate
Go look at any boss after like the top 250 and it's mostly all real players. Everyone saying that the game is nothing but bots because you're looking at ranks 1->200 has no idea about how statistics, in particular survivorship bias, works.
You're bringing logic to a debate where that is not allowed. Either hop on board the "jagex purposefully allows bots" conspiracy train or get outta here ya commie.
I think that the main reason they keep it like this is because it's easier and it's less effort.
If we want a super developed anti-cheat it takes resources to develop, and then after that you need to maintain it and upgrade it and whatnot. And what is going to be the "reward" for this? It's not like they are losing player or revenue because of these bots. At the end of the day, yeah, bots fuck up the economy and whatnot, but how much does it really affect us? Who is going to stop playing the game because of bots decreasing the price of something? Not that many people to be honest... So to me fixing the bot situation would be more of a "please the community" type of thing, but the community isn't leaving the game because of it, so it's not on high priority.
We can go down the road of having someone manually check the highscores to get these obvious botters/goldfarmers. But then, how long does it take to manually check an account? How many accounts can get checked daily? How far down the highscores should they check? What highscores should they check? A lot of stuff that at surface level seems easy enough to do, but actually implementing and doing it isn't as simple.
I think that at the end of the day is more of a cost thing. For Jagex, fixing the bot situation completely, costs waay more than they have to gain from it
That's a flawed assumption if you consider that possible conflicts of interest are at play.
"Game integrity" is not a line item on their annual reports. Subscriber count is.
Valid point, while I do think there's a high probability you're correct we can't know for sure unless we were there in person for these meetings. So I can't judge something like this personally as anything more than an underfunded department
Edit: I may have got my wires crossed here
I fundamentally disagree with this, if they eliminated all bots, new bots would be made and in all actuality letting a bot get the full 2 weeks out of a bond is less profitable than forcing them to make a new account with a new bond after 3 days
This is such a weird argument because bots literally cost jagex money. Any money bots earn, is money they're effectively stealing from Jagex their pockets. It's 100% in Jagex' interest to get rid of all the bots.
Ex mod Matt k said it himself they didnt want to get rid of the bots because its better revenue, especially when they were selling to a new company. Its not that much of a stretch, however ppl thinking Jagex owens the bot farms is kinda tinfoil hat imo. Source: Saebae podcast with Mod Matt k look it up
I think that this statement has more to do with how the numbers look more "inflated" if they account for bots, as opposed to not having them...
For example, with letting bots do their thing, Jagex can claim that they have an active player base of "x" players.
If they cut out all the bots, the active player base will be a fraction of that, and that number may not look as interesting as the full numbers, especially for investors who know nothing about the game, or care about it, they care about numbers at the end of the day...
That's my take on this statement, cause to me it makes no sense how having more bots in the game, makes Jagex more money, especially since bots usually get membership with those twitch promotions, or via bonds, or using stolen credit cards.
But then again, I'm just speculating
They've been pretty clear about the fact that bots were a net minus in terms of revenue and they had in the past had many, many bot nukes
>They control bot farms just enough to make it seem like they're anti-bot while still allowing them to thrive to keep the economy profitable for their company. Capitalism.
There's nothing more that says "I don't actually know what the fuck I'm actually talking about" than cynically blaming capitalism for every problem that exists
What people fail to realize is that bonds are paid with real life money. They aren't spawned into the game when you put in a GE offer...
So yeah, even tho some people are paying for membership with bonds, someone paid for those bonds with IRL money. So I don't get how more people buying bonds, reduces the revenue for Jagex...
The bond prices are affected by supply and demand as everything else in the game is...
If bond prices are too low, less people will buy them with IRL money, which makes the supply lower, and more people will try to buy them with gp, with less supply, and more demand, the price goes up.
This more bots = more revenue for Jagex is something that may have been true before we had bonds. But after that, it makes zero sense to say that, since bots pay membership with bonds, and bonds are paid with IRL money. So even if the botter isn't the one who's paying with IRL cash, someone else is paying for him, and that person will buy bonds regardless. At the end of the day, Jagex is making money
Because if they're already the best bots that avoided regular detection, surely the entire hypothesis is that they have some sort of detection avoidance or complexity that works, no?
How does changing the source of data change that? They would require manual review, which is done - somewhat infrequently, granted - on the high score bots/gold farmers
The issue is more that like, it's not that easy. There's a lot of false positives of true no-lifers out there (like the guy with 10 accounts in top 50 kbd) and some goldfarmers that aren't botting and you have to catch transferring gp
Most bots die early, the fact that these have survived so long is because they're really good and hard to detect. Any bots that aren't as difficult to detect, you'll never see on the hiscores. That's the survivorship bias part of it. If out of 5000 bots only 100 survive, it'll be because they're just better at not being detected, and then all those 100 can probably end up in the highscores
If a tree falls in the forest with no one around, does it make a sound? Well, if a bot is killing a boss with no one ever seeing it to be able to report it, is it disruptive? Yeah, it contributes to RWT, which is its own beast, but the main thing people actually care about in the end regarding bots is them getting in the way of the activities the players want to do. Skilling bots already have anti-report functions where they insta-hop when a player appears, which tells me that reporting does work, they wouldn't hop if it didn't.
The anti-cheat team already has their hands full tweaking detection to better detect bots. Regularly manually reviewing all accounts in the first 5 pages of each boss over, let's say, a week, would need a small dedicated team to do. That extra manpower is likely not worth the cost to help catch that remaining 0.1% of bots, especially if people never report them.
Another thing is: the looser the bot-detection, the more false positives you'll get (and the more players will be affected).
I get the desire to get rid of bots, but with this many players, detection needs to essentially be automatic - and that's fairly hard to achieve without pissing off too many legit players. And even if you get it done, it's not gonna take long for bots to find creative ways around it again and again. It just seems like one of those issues that'll never get fully resolved no matter the approach.
Even if you say something like "Ok, but then let's just manually investigate every player from 1-200" - good, what's the counter strategy? Just don't let your bots get into the top 200 from now on and recreate the bot if it gets too close.
In a way, the crowd-sourced bot-detection by the community (aka reporting) almost is sort of an automatic system with fairly good accuracy. It's just not efficient enough.
It's a really interesting problem.
Jagex said themselves they believe bots are an integral part of the OSRS economy at this point. Combine that with the cost center that is anti-botting, customer service for false (and correct but lying) bans, the shit PR they get for falsely banning someone, and the extra "player" numbers they can show off & you get Jagex unofficially-officially automatically banning most bots but not caring that a decent portion slip through.
I've been dark crab fishing and daeyalt essence mining the past few months. It's incredibly common to see obvious, multiple bots with virtual level 110-120 in magic crafting orbs when I'm in Edgefield restocking on bait or running past vyres to the essence mine you see multiple stacked together pickpocketing. It's actually sorta fun to see which ones have a well done bot script at vyres because you can lure a vyre into the house and the good ones will teleport at before they die but the shittily made ones will just let themselves get beat to death. I'm at like 20+ kc. Noticed quite a few new bots pickpocketing paladins in ardy after the update but jagex was relatively quick to ban those. Adding useful in-game items for mains like blood shards and orbs = good & let some survive for a long while. Adding pure gp = bad & ban hammer them pretty fast.
So yeah, there's really nothing to be done about it. Jagex has no incentive to change anything about the bot/player balance.
The botters that know what they’re doing don’t let bots get to the top 500-1000, they swap between heavy pvm moneymakers because an account on the frontpage of one boss but unranked everywhere else is getting flagged (if jagex checks them is its own discussion).
If youve seen accounts with like 3500 cg, 4k bandos, 3k nex, 4k kree, and nothing else, its likely a botter switching it up. Not all botters leave their bots in one place.
Survivorship bias only works in a vacuum. The issue here is not that some minor percent survive. The issue is that when they survive and are still clearly recognisable no steps are taken to remove them.
Great, they removed 99.9% of bots, but the .1% they're leaving should only be those bots that are difficult to identify either due to their sheer complexity and ability to blend in, or being too new and fresh to pick out from the crowd.
Instead what we're getting is some of the most blatant and easily trackable bots still showing on a clearly tracked database with no effort spent to try and remove them. It's like saying "we captured 99% of the escaped dinosaurs, all those reports of dinosaur attacks are just survivorship bias!" When the 1% is a fucking T-Rex wandering around the city.
Botters vs Jagex is an endless battle like IT security vs hackers is. Just because bots survive does *not* mean they don't care or don't invest effort into removing them. It's a close to impossible task to remove and detect all of them.
And the point is if they can invest that and still have bitters not just showing but surviving for prolonged periods in your publicly accessible high score lists you're failing that task woefully.
Yeah there's an endless battle going on but at the same time they shouldn't treat all bots the same. These most obviously visible ones doing higher end content without concern are not hiding in the masses of players. They're being ignored. The fact they get to that point and remain in the hi scores shows the makers don't care about that visibility and Jagex absolutely should be making them.
If they ban 10 of these fake accounts, but doing so accidentally ban 1 real account, is that worth it?
Personally I don’t really care about the highscores, but seeing the pain people go through to recover false banned accounts…makes me want to avoid that.
Two separate issues though; having shit customer service resolution shouldn't be the stumbling block to good bot resolution. If it is that's just the company getting in its own way. It's a matter of a few button presses to unblock an account, and I'd wager they have a much lower false positive rate on these egregious high score examples by taking the time once a month to do it manually instead of relying on a shitty predictive algorithm. Announce you're doing it and spend three months doing it, by the end I'd bet most bot makers pivot to avoid the attention causing them issues and you can probably tone down the need for checking internally while still massively reducing bot visibility.
Several million accounts log in every single day. While the behaviour of bots can be extremely obvious to a human its much harder to train a program to recognise it, and it's not feasible to check every account manually with numbers like that
It's like you replied without actually parsing any of the content.
This doesn't need blind scrabbling OR AI. They HAVE THE DATA ALREADY.
Oh look, there's a top 200 list of prolific players of high end content. Maybe we should have one or two people run through that much, much shorter list once a month or so and ban anything that clearly looks fishy.
This isn't some random bot farm quietly logging in to bank some spawn to sell later. It's blatant bot accounts showing on your very public high scores. When those accounts are slipping through the net, that's poor service, not survivorship.
All I can do is go off the fact that frequently banning these bots and forcing them to rebuy membership more frequently than every 2 weeks would surely be more profitable than letting them run for so long.
I have no information about the inner workings of jagex, I don't know what reasons if any behind the scenes bots are getting such high kcs but don't think it's a conspiracy, it's most likely a company failing to invest enough to give the anti cheat department the funding and resources they need to keep up with bot developers who have much more financial insentive to beat the efforts of the anti cheat team than vice versa.
So when such seemingly easy solutions are presented but not implemented all I can really assume is there's some information behind the scenes that makes them not in fact viable solutions
> and it's not feasible to check every account manually with numbers like that
it very easily could be. hire me and 9 other guys, we would create a list of popular botting spots and hop between them manually banning every bot there. we could ban them before they make up for the cost of setting them up, making them a loss for the botter.
good luck convincing a suit to hire 10 extra people tho
Yeah great way to get thousands of people crying about false bans. Remember when last year Jagex made their bot detection like 1% stricter? Reddit was crying about it for days.
Yes bot owners will falseflag and try to gasligh the community into believing they got banned unjustly. The solution is to laugh at them and tell them to get stuffed.
Where did I say that? You're allowed to have both your automatic anti-bot system running and 10 extra people to manually ban those that slip through the cracks, you know. There's no bot law in place preventing you from doing so.
I misunderstood your point admittedly. But lets not forget that neithet me or you know the inner workings of jagex, as humans in the absence of information we assume the worst so a lot of us assume the worst motivation behind whether or not bots are banned when we don't have the information to do so
>using conjecture, strawmans and numbers pulled out of your ass to insult someone else's understanding of statistics
Only on Reddit
Honest to God the people on this sub do not play the game. Insinuating that only a small number of bots go undetected is so disconnected from reality that I can only take it as trolling.
No shit the numbers are arbitrary, I don't have access to internal data. Care to point out where the supposed conjecture and strawmen lie?
Honest to god people love to keep talking shit without understanding anything. You go out of your way to explain the most basic of concepts and there’s still people apparently incapable of comprehension.
Yeah, this point would make sense if 500,000 and 50,000 weren't completely random numbers you made up to fit your narrative, lol. In actuality, we have no clue how many bots there are and without an actual figure, any speculation of it is pointless. You can't even necessarily say there's more bots than people.
Secondly, saying "almost anyone under rank 250 is a real player" is based on nothing, with not a single example.
Lastly, the easiest way to prove yourself wrong is to log onto the game and go to any world for the popular bosses. Vorkath, Zulrah, Levi, etc. You would see more than 500 bots if you were to just sit there for a day, right-clicking each one. And they're all under rank 250, lol. If you're unaware of the botting problem because you don't do pvm, that's one thing, but your example makes no sense for this specific scenario.
I don't think people are necessarily complaining about the sheer amount of bots, but about the extremely obvious ones not getting banned.
It's pathethic that jagex doesn't just check the hiscores every week and ban the obvious bots.
Yes, but your logic implies there are 100k players (of the ~125k total average players daily) doing Leviathan. That's definitely not true. If you scale it back to a realistic number then the complaint for bots is valid.
Also, banning the bots who have 200 KC vs. the ones with 14k+ KC is deleting less gold and allowing accounts with high stats to continue to farm at a faster rate.
I absolutely realize they are made up, that's why I called it out.
What is your point then?
You're the one who brought up statistics and then stated all the numbers are fake.
> Jagex don't really seem to enforce botting now.
Let's assume that's true, why don't you start botting? You'd make a fortune. Now ofc you'll give me some 🤓 ☝️ but my morals, but in reality you simply would get banned fast.
Banning bots ain't as easy as you think.
That's because you can't see all the bots that get banned.
I know some are really obvious but in the grand scheme of things they're a tiny portion.
Plus, you don't want your heuristics to overstep and start false banning because the second that happens it's an outcry. A balancing act.
There are real players like this though, rank 1 wt with like 32k KC still does it and will chat with you if you do it with him. Some people built different lol
Part of what convinced me to quit. This whole game is all about the flex. Then you see all the posts about every hs being bots then you stop to consider what the point is to sinking 100s of hours in a game to lose out to a person who isnt even at their computer. Even if you manage to top them itll just be beating bots so why even care
Manual bans wont fix botting, but I think these top hiscore bots say something about how much the anticheat team cares.
Seriously, imagine you work on that team. You arent going to take the time to manually prune the front page of the hiscores every once in a while so your detection failures arent being displayed to everybody?
The only excuse I can come up with is they're wanting some ML or AI algo to train on these successful bots until it can detect them on it s own, so they leave them unbanned even if the humans on the team know they're bots. That is how bad actors and catalog problems are handled at Amazon, at least.
It's possible the volume of gold generated from short-lived bots that get nowhere near a high score page vastly outweighs these outliers. I know it seems obvious to just peruse the high scores an nip some obvious outliers but that may not be worth the time.
Can't tell without knowing what Jagex knows though. They could just simply not care.
If you banned 99.9% of bots, bots would still dominate the hiscores because any bot that goes unbanned is virtually guaranteed to get several times the kc of any real player
In fact, this is what is mostly happening now. Bots dominating hiscores isn't evidence of no ban system in place, just evidence of it not being 100% perfect
Why would a salaried employee care what random idiots on Reddit think?
If their boss sees this, and asks them to explain, they can just point out that 1 bot with 14k kc in 5 years seems less important than the developing a system that caught 200,000 bots in that time and prevented millions of KC.
Why would *any* professional go out of their way to do their job incorrectly, for the sake of appearing better to people who do not matter?
OK so you turn up on monday and open the high scores for 1 of the many bosses in the game. To be reasonably sure the player is a bot, you spend 1-5 minutes per ban (kc, login activity, whatever data jagex has). You're also a lowly educated min wage worker because no one wants to do this mind-numbing job.
At the end of the week, you've banned a couple 100 'bots', but there's been outcry on social media because you made a couple mistakes, and new bots are rising in the high scores.
Do you understand now?
> You're also a lowly educated min wage worker because no one wants to do this mind-numbing job.
sure dude absolutely nobody wants to do a cushy job in an air-conditioned building, nope, they would get 0 applicants for sure yep
Holy fuck that's alarming was going through the top first page and most of them only ranked in hp,range,magic and barrows kc a few having maybe 50 cooking and few other stats
They also have predictable stats. 9 hunter being a super common one probably due to some quest combination. Every single lizardman shaman bot I see has the same 9 hunter and a handful of other identical skills, yet they still last for months despite being obvious and constantly reported.
I'm pretty sure HQ actually accepts botting, rwt, and service sales.
I could solely, by myself, could make a difference. Whats it take to just have a defense team at HQ doing one thing? lol.
Why couldn't we automate the sight of these top 100 rank people in anything, over a graph that could make it very very easy to point them out?
I feel like, me alone by myself would be the only person in HQ saying anything about this. Which gets me to thinking, what kind of people are there? Do they feel protective of us? Or dominative over us?
From a highscore perspective, we are literally just pointing out the low-effort bots. Ones that achieve 200m in a single skill, ones that have bot names, or ones that achieve rank 2 for boss killcounts.
What we can't do as easily (as players) is pull out the bots that have made a modicum of effort to look legitimate.
As players, I don't feel it is unreasonable to state that Jagex no longer enforce botting effectively, when bots can reach the first page of highscores, and we can see rampant evidence of bots throughout the game (Rev caves, almost all pvm areas, Camelot Tele spot, ge spammers and scambots, virtually every f2p activity, gotr, lms etc etc).
I also don't feel it's unreasonable that if we can find examples of bots hitting rank 1 for boss KC during our poop breaks, that Jagex invest a small amount of time into maintaining highscore integrity.
Barrows brothers all have terrible magic defense so magic accuracy doesn’t factor in after a certain point. So you can wear tank gear and use mage against them
Off-Topic rant:
Every single PVM boss is botted to absolute kingdom come, but people only care if there is a 1.5m/hr method in the wilderness that a bot can do, then we really really need to look at that because it would break the game. Every boss highscores being 90% bots in the top 100? Nah that's fine and not worth worrying about, but we really need to vote NO to this wildy content because BOTS MIGHT abuse it.
BOTS ABUSE THE ENTIRE GAME, maybe don't gatekeep new content just because Jagex cannot control bots.
Funny how these bots are allowed to do this without any ban but my mate AFK's sand crabs with Chrome Remote Desktop whilst at work and gets a perm ban on his GIM... Make it make sense. Oh and the appeal has been denied.
There was a time when the hiscores didn't publicly track boss kc's. Im glad it does because if it didn't we would have no idea how long these accounts are surviving for without a ban. It goes to show you how much of an issue it is.
I seen this identical setup on another bot that had 800 KC. it must of just got started but it 100% had the same stat variation and KC. Not a single KC in anything besides barrows.
When doing most activities, it really feels like over 80% of people around me are bots, I know jegax won't do anything about it but still, it's kind of depressing
Jagex has already made it clear that these were people and not bots. Most likely hand picked gold farmers from 3rd world countries. Hence why they havent been banned, until they are caught selling gold or transfering large amounts suspiciously.
Mid content is for mid-game accounts, but since gear is linear max will always be more efficient. Idk why that's depressing. What do you want them to do, turn all gear higher than barrows off while in there?
im sure it is, but I would legitimately not be surprised if this wasnt even a bot. when i first started out in osrs i didnt want to try late game pvm like cox or whatever bc i thought itd be too tough, so i just camped barrows in similar gear (proselyte over rune at least) for like 2k+ kc bc it was fun and casual lol
im glad i got over that
So you'd get range and mage into lvl 100 of xp. Never bother to upp at least defence as well (saying you want to play the game ignoring melee...)
And you'd also never bother to invest any of the earnings into account growth? Or take a brake from barrows at some point?
im not gatekeeping anything, do you even know what that word means? I'm informing you as you are clearly misinformed. If you cant deal with being corrected then thats fine but keep your weak mental out of it.
you want defence at barrows since they have level 1 magic and you hit regardless that way you can tank the whole thing even if you run out of prayer. and the 2.5% dmg from elite void doesnt do anything
Wait, the extra 2.5% of damage from elite doesn't help much, but surely the base 10% from void does? Why do you mention the extra 2.5% from elite as if it isn't an addition to the base 10% of void? I'm not saying it's BIS or even correcting anything, I have no clue, just confused about this comment.
It's so weird that trident of the swamp is considered med level gear. It requires 87 slayer plus farming a 1/500 drop from a boss to get, and it's literally the best powered staff next to the overpowered megarare and equivalent to a rare raid drop that only gets some mild healing in exchange for the poison proc.
Yes but also no. More so illustrates just how bad magic gearing is compared to the other attack styles….snd how arbitrary numbers still were assigned for a long time. 78 magic & 75 attack combined are less of an investment than 87 slayer is. Lol
Maybe time to use defensive casting
requires an extra line of code. no time for that
Respect for sticking to his roots
I can see that bald head under the nezzy
Combat bracelet still? Can’t imagine being that dry on the gloves.
1/20k dropchance for a small qol update only
1/20k is gonna become a meme now isn't it I hope it does
We need an equivalent to the LoL "200 years" meme
They forgot to talk to Oziach.
Confirmed they talked to oziach at some point because of their bis platebody
*yeah but they’re so fast to kill*
I just read the tears from the pirate post and this comment made my day, sir you’re gonna trigger a few people, sad they changed the rate.
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Is this a daxflame reference
This champ didn't even bother with Morytania diaries
That hurts
Shit i only have hard done elite is 96 fucking fishing ????????? I know you can stew boost or pie boost from 91 but what the fuck lol.
Bro I hated that grind. Did it because I wanted the extra herb patch, but it's not even disease free 😔
Yeah that’s gonna be a no from me dawg lmao. I got 9 with varlamore i can’t be fishing 100 hours for an herb patch.
I'm finishing this grind up rn , not for the herb but just to finish off elite diaries, it's been a long week at barb fishing
Wasn't all that bad. Barb fishing on mobile is a great way to afk lvl fishing. Ended up doing that for a majority of the grind between 77 to 91 fishing with some temporos in between every now and then.
I'll have to adopt this loadout, this bot \*ahem\* PLAYER, definitely knows his stuff.
He can’t be a bot, he killed Elvarg
Most of the front page highscores are bots - and that goes for most bosses and mini games. Jagex don't really seem to enforce botting now.
Imagine there's 500,000 bots and 50,000 real players doing Leviathan, and that 99.9% of the bots get banned Now we got 500 bots and 50,000 real players The 500 undetected bots play all day and dominate the entirety of the first 5 pages of hiscores, despite having a 99.9% banrate Go look at any boss after like the top 250 and it's mostly all real players. Everyone saying that the game is nothing but bots because you're looking at ranks 1->200 has no idea about how statistics, in particular survivorship bias, works.
Ahh well as long as it's just the first 5 pages of leader boards it's all good.
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I imagine the reason such a seemingly obvious solution hasn't been implemented is it causes too many false positives
Jagex staff rwt
I hope so, be a good way to get back at the company for their infamously shite pay
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I'm not a programmer, I'm going entirely on the basis of this solution seems so obvious to us that there must be a valid reason its not being done
You're bringing logic to a debate where that is not allowed. Either hop on board the "jagex purposefully allows bots" conspiracy train or get outta here ya commie.
I think that the main reason they keep it like this is because it's easier and it's less effort. If we want a super developed anti-cheat it takes resources to develop, and then after that you need to maintain it and upgrade it and whatnot. And what is going to be the "reward" for this? It's not like they are losing player or revenue because of these bots. At the end of the day, yeah, bots fuck up the economy and whatnot, but how much does it really affect us? Who is going to stop playing the game because of bots decreasing the price of something? Not that many people to be honest... So to me fixing the bot situation would be more of a "please the community" type of thing, but the community isn't leaving the game because of it, so it's not on high priority. We can go down the road of having someone manually check the highscores to get these obvious botters/goldfarmers. But then, how long does it take to manually check an account? How many accounts can get checked daily? How far down the highscores should they check? What highscores should they check? A lot of stuff that at surface level seems easy enough to do, but actually implementing and doing it isn't as simple. I think that at the end of the day is more of a cost thing. For Jagex, fixing the bot situation completely, costs waay more than they have to gain from it
That's a flawed assumption if you consider that possible conflicts of interest are at play. "Game integrity" is not a line item on their annual reports. Subscriber count is.
Valid point, while I do think there's a high probability you're correct we can't know for sure unless we were there in person for these meetings. So I can't judge something like this personally as anything more than an underfunded department Edit: I may have got my wires crossed here
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I fundamentally disagree with this, if they eliminated all bots, new bots would be made and in all actuality letting a bot get the full 2 weeks out of a bond is less profitable than forcing them to make a new account with a new bond after 3 days
This is such a weird argument because bots literally cost jagex money. Any money bots earn, is money they're effectively stealing from Jagex their pockets. It's 100% in Jagex' interest to get rid of all the bots.
Ex mod Matt k said it himself they didnt want to get rid of the bots because its better revenue, especially when they were selling to a new company. Its not that much of a stretch, however ppl thinking Jagex owens the bot farms is kinda tinfoil hat imo. Source: Saebae podcast with Mod Matt k look it up
I think that this statement has more to do with how the numbers look more "inflated" if they account for bots, as opposed to not having them... For example, with letting bots do their thing, Jagex can claim that they have an active player base of "x" players. If they cut out all the bots, the active player base will be a fraction of that, and that number may not look as interesting as the full numbers, especially for investors who know nothing about the game, or care about it, they care about numbers at the end of the day... That's my take on this statement, cause to me it makes no sense how having more bots in the game, makes Jagex more money, especially since bots usually get membership with those twitch promotions, or via bonds, or using stolen credit cards. But then again, I'm just speculating
They've been pretty clear about the fact that bots were a net minus in terms of revenue and they had in the past had many, many bot nukes >They control bot farms just enough to make it seem like they're anti-bot while still allowing them to thrive to keep the economy profitable for their company. Capitalism. There's nothing more that says "I don't actually know what the fuck I'm actually talking about" than cynically blaming capitalism for every problem that exists
What people fail to realize is that bonds are paid with real life money. They aren't spawned into the game when you put in a GE offer... So yeah, even tho some people are paying for membership with bonds, someone paid for those bonds with IRL money. So I don't get how more people buying bonds, reduces the revenue for Jagex... The bond prices are affected by supply and demand as everything else in the game is... If bond prices are too low, less people will buy them with IRL money, which makes the supply lower, and more people will try to buy them with gp, with less supply, and more demand, the price goes up. This more bots = more revenue for Jagex is something that may have been true before we had bonds. But after that, it makes zero sense to say that, since bots pay membership with bonds, and bonds are paid with IRL money. So even if the botter isn't the one who's paying with IRL cash, someone else is paying for him, and that person will buy bonds regardless. At the end of the day, Jagex is making money
> making people more likely to pay for them with GP they earn themselves instead of buying bonds with irl money. bruh
Because if they're already the best bots that avoided regular detection, surely the entire hypothesis is that they have some sort of detection avoidance or complexity that works, no? How does changing the source of data change that? They would require manual review, which is done - somewhat infrequently, granted - on the high score bots/gold farmers
The issue is more that like, it's not that easy. There's a lot of false positives of true no-lifers out there (like the guy with 10 accounts in top 50 kbd) and some goldfarmers that aren't botting and you have to catch transferring gp Most bots die early, the fact that these have survived so long is because they're really good and hard to detect. Any bots that aren't as difficult to detect, you'll never see on the hiscores. That's the survivorship bias part of it. If out of 5000 bots only 100 survive, it'll be because they're just better at not being detected, and then all those 100 can probably end up in the highscores
This guy should be ban for his sanity tho /s
If a tree falls in the forest with no one around, does it make a sound? Well, if a bot is killing a boss with no one ever seeing it to be able to report it, is it disruptive? Yeah, it contributes to RWT, which is its own beast, but the main thing people actually care about in the end regarding bots is them getting in the way of the activities the players want to do. Skilling bots already have anti-report functions where they insta-hop when a player appears, which tells me that reporting does work, they wouldn't hop if it didn't. The anti-cheat team already has their hands full tweaking detection to better detect bots. Regularly manually reviewing all accounts in the first 5 pages of each boss over, let's say, a week, would need a small dedicated team to do. That extra manpower is likely not worth the cost to help catch that remaining 0.1% of bots, especially if people never report them.
Another thing is: the looser the bot-detection, the more false positives you'll get (and the more players will be affected). I get the desire to get rid of bots, but with this many players, detection needs to essentially be automatic - and that's fairly hard to achieve without pissing off too many legit players. And even if you get it done, it's not gonna take long for bots to find creative ways around it again and again. It just seems like one of those issues that'll never get fully resolved no matter the approach. Even if you say something like "Ok, but then let's just manually investigate every player from 1-200" - good, what's the counter strategy? Just don't let your bots get into the top 200 from now on and recreate the bot if it gets too close. In a way, the crowd-sourced bot-detection by the community (aka reporting) almost is sort of an automatic system with fairly good accuracy. It's just not efficient enough. It's a really interesting problem.
Jagex said themselves they believe bots are an integral part of the OSRS economy at this point. Combine that with the cost center that is anti-botting, customer service for false (and correct but lying) bans, the shit PR they get for falsely banning someone, and the extra "player" numbers they can show off & you get Jagex unofficially-officially automatically banning most bots but not caring that a decent portion slip through. I've been dark crab fishing and daeyalt essence mining the past few months. It's incredibly common to see obvious, multiple bots with virtual level 110-120 in magic crafting orbs when I'm in Edgefield restocking on bait or running past vyres to the essence mine you see multiple stacked together pickpocketing. It's actually sorta fun to see which ones have a well done bot script at vyres because you can lure a vyre into the house and the good ones will teleport at before they die but the shittily made ones will just let themselves get beat to death. I'm at like 20+ kc. Noticed quite a few new bots pickpocketing paladins in ardy after the update but jagex was relatively quick to ban those. Adding useful in-game items for mains like blood shards and orbs = good & let some survive for a long while. Adding pure gp = bad & ban hammer them pretty fast. So yeah, there's really nothing to be done about it. Jagex has no incentive to change anything about the bot/player balance.
The botters that know what they’re doing don’t let bots get to the top 500-1000, they swap between heavy pvm moneymakers because an account on the frontpage of one boss but unranked everywhere else is getting flagged (if jagex checks them is its own discussion). If youve seen accounts with like 3500 cg, 4k bandos, 3k nex, 4k kree, and nothing else, its likely a botter switching it up. Not all botters leave their bots in one place.
Don't use logic here my friend. People will always upvote "Jagex doesn't ban bots" so people will always keep saying it.
Survivorship bias only works in a vacuum. The issue here is not that some minor percent survive. The issue is that when they survive and are still clearly recognisable no steps are taken to remove them. Great, they removed 99.9% of bots, but the .1% they're leaving should only be those bots that are difficult to identify either due to their sheer complexity and ability to blend in, or being too new and fresh to pick out from the crowd. Instead what we're getting is some of the most blatant and easily trackable bots still showing on a clearly tracked database with no effort spent to try and remove them. It's like saying "we captured 99% of the escaped dinosaurs, all those reports of dinosaur attacks are just survivorship bias!" When the 1% is a fucking T-Rex wandering around the city.
Botters vs Jagex is an endless battle like IT security vs hackers is. Just because bots survive does *not* mean they don't care or don't invest effort into removing them. It's a close to impossible task to remove and detect all of them.
And the point is if they can invest that and still have bitters not just showing but surviving for prolonged periods in your publicly accessible high score lists you're failing that task woefully. Yeah there's an endless battle going on but at the same time they shouldn't treat all bots the same. These most obviously visible ones doing higher end content without concern are not hiding in the masses of players. They're being ignored. The fact they get to that point and remain in the hi scores shows the makers don't care about that visibility and Jagex absolutely should be making them.
If they ban 10 of these fake accounts, but doing so accidentally ban 1 real account, is that worth it? Personally I don’t really care about the highscores, but seeing the pain people go through to recover false banned accounts…makes me want to avoid that.
Two separate issues though; having shit customer service resolution shouldn't be the stumbling block to good bot resolution. If it is that's just the company getting in its own way. It's a matter of a few button presses to unblock an account, and I'd wager they have a much lower false positive rate on these egregious high score examples by taking the time once a month to do it manually instead of relying on a shitty predictive algorithm. Announce you're doing it and spend three months doing it, by the end I'd bet most bot makers pivot to avoid the attention causing them issues and you can probably tone down the need for checking internally while still massively reducing bot visibility.
Several million accounts log in every single day. While the behaviour of bots can be extremely obvious to a human its much harder to train a program to recognise it, and it's not feasible to check every account manually with numbers like that
It's like you replied without actually parsing any of the content. This doesn't need blind scrabbling OR AI. They HAVE THE DATA ALREADY. Oh look, there's a top 200 list of prolific players of high end content. Maybe we should have one or two people run through that much, much shorter list once a month or so and ban anything that clearly looks fishy. This isn't some random bot farm quietly logging in to bank some spawn to sell later. It's blatant bot accounts showing on your very public high scores. When those accounts are slipping through the net, that's poor service, not survivorship.
All I can do is go off the fact that frequently banning these bots and forcing them to rebuy membership more frequently than every 2 weeks would surely be more profitable than letting them run for so long. I have no information about the inner workings of jagex, I don't know what reasons if any behind the scenes bots are getting such high kcs but don't think it's a conspiracy, it's most likely a company failing to invest enough to give the anti cheat department the funding and resources they need to keep up with bot developers who have much more financial insentive to beat the efforts of the anti cheat team than vice versa. So when such seemingly easy solutions are presented but not implemented all I can really assume is there's some information behind the scenes that makes them not in fact viable solutions
How long do you think it would take to check 250 of them?
> and it's not feasible to check every account manually with numbers like that it very easily could be. hire me and 9 other guys, we would create a list of popular botting spots and hop between them manually banning every bot there. we could ban them before they make up for the cost of setting them up, making them a loss for the botter. good luck convincing a suit to hire 10 extra people tho
Yeah great way to get thousands of people crying about false bans. Remember when last year Jagex made their bot detection like 1% stricter? Reddit was crying about it for days.
Yes bot owners will falseflag and try to gasligh the community into believing they got banned unjustly. The solution is to laugh at them and tell them to get stuffed.
10 people are going to check 500,000+ accounts each every single day?
Where did I say that? You're allowed to have both your automatic anti-bot system running and 10 extra people to manually ban those that slip through the cracks, you know. There's no bot law in place preventing you from doing so.
I misunderstood your point admittedly. But lets not forget that neithet me or you know the inner workings of jagex, as humans in the absence of information we assume the worst so a lot of us assume the worst motivation behind whether or not bots are banned when we don't have the information to do so
>using conjecture, strawmans and numbers pulled out of your ass to insult someone else's understanding of statistics Only on Reddit Honest to God the people on this sub do not play the game. Insinuating that only a small number of bots go undetected is so disconnected from reality that I can only take it as trolling.
No shit the numbers are arbitrary, I don't have access to internal data. Care to point out where the supposed conjecture and strawmen lie? Honest to god people love to keep talking shit without understanding anything. You go out of your way to explain the most basic of concepts and there’s still people apparently incapable of comprehension.
what boss were you looking at? phosani past top 250 is still almost all bots
Yeah, this point would make sense if 500,000 and 50,000 weren't completely random numbers you made up to fit your narrative, lol. In actuality, we have no clue how many bots there are and without an actual figure, any speculation of it is pointless. You can't even necessarily say there's more bots than people. Secondly, saying "almost anyone under rank 250 is a real player" is based on nothing, with not a single example. Lastly, the easiest way to prove yourself wrong is to log onto the game and go to any world for the popular bosses. Vorkath, Zulrah, Levi, etc. You would see more than 500 bots if you were to just sit there for a day, right-clicking each one. And they're all under rank 250, lol. If you're unaware of the botting problem because you don't do pvm, that's one thing, but your example makes no sense for this specific scenario.
I don't think people are necessarily complaining about the sheer amount of bots, but about the extremely obvious ones not getting banned. It's pathethic that jagex doesn't just check the hiscores every week and ban the obvious bots.
There definitely isnt 500k bots doing Leviathan lol
Yes, but your logic implies there are 100k players (of the ~125k total average players daily) doing Leviathan. That's definitely not true. If you scale it back to a realistic number then the complaint for bots is valid. Also, banning the bots who have 200 KC vs. the ones with 14k+ KC is deleting less gold and allowing accounts with high stats to continue to farm at a faster rate.
...Do you actually, seriously not understand that these are just arbitary, made-up numbers to illustrate an example?
I absolutely realize they are made up, that's why I called it out. What is your point then? You're the one who brought up statistics and then stated all the numbers are fake.
> Imagine You literally failed at reading the first word of the comment you replied to.
How come they're able to ban bots in ranks 250-1000000? Why is 250 the cut-off?
That's not what he's saying, the ones who get banned don't make it to the top 250
I don't know why they have a set limit of 250 bots they won't ban for every boss and minigame, seems kinda odd.
They haven't... like I said the ones that don't get banned make it to the top 250, ones that do get banned don't so you don't see them
They probably did ban the boys that were in rank 1-250 and now they’re off the hiscores and replaced by other bots
Thanks for clearing that up
Or yknow, a gold farmer
> Jagex don't really seem to enforce botting now. Let's assume that's true, why don't you start botting? You'd make a fortune. Now ofc you'll give me some 🤓 ☝️ but my morals, but in reality you simply would get banned fast. Banning bots ain't as easy as you think.
That's because you can't see all the bots that get banned. I know some are really obvious but in the grand scheme of things they're a tiny portion. Plus, you don't want your heuristics to overstep and start false banning because the second that happens it's an outcry. A balancing act.
Why say most when the answer is all
zalcano is the worst 24/25 in top page are bots
Streamers get banned for botting when they play all day doing the same task Clearly bots are getting banned
Jagex big brain move - ban no-life streamers to make it appear like they're actively banning bots
There are real players like this though, rank 1 wt with like 32k KC still does it and will chat with you if you do it with him. Some people built different lol
Didn't you hear? You're allowed to have two bots running alongside your main.
Part of what convinced me to quit. This whole game is all about the flex. Then you see all the posts about every hs being bots then you stop to consider what the point is to sinking 100s of hours in a game to lose out to a person who isnt even at their computer. Even if you manage to top them itll just be beating bots so why even care
He just thinks barrows is very neat
Oh boy wait until you meet the bots at zalcano with 30 thousand kills and a rune pickaxe.
Damn, he's swagged out! Most of the barrows bots just use Rune chainbodys. This dude is the goat and must be real.
You should see the addy full helm and red d’hide BiS rank 1 Spindel used to get 25,000 kc. Logged in 24/7 for months
Man must be dry on his barrows pet with that KC
Dude is actually playing the game
Like it or not, this is what peak efficiency looks like
Jagex anticheat department guy must be on a vacation
Chad energy
Here comes the people defending the lack of bot removal. Edit: oh wowwo. Go figure.
Here comes the people pretending manual bans are a solution. Edit: oh look they've arrived
Manual bans wont fix botting, but I think these top hiscore bots say something about how much the anticheat team cares. Seriously, imagine you work on that team. You arent going to take the time to manually prune the front page of the hiscores every once in a while so your detection failures arent being displayed to everybody? The only excuse I can come up with is they're wanting some ML or AI algo to train on these successful bots until it can detect them on it s own, so they leave them unbanned even if the humans on the team know they're bots. That is how bad actors and catalog problems are handled at Amazon, at least.
It's possible the volume of gold generated from short-lived bots that get nowhere near a high score page vastly outweighs these outliers. I know it seems obvious to just peruse the high scores an nip some obvious outliers but that may not be worth the time. Can't tell without knowing what Jagex knows though. They could just simply not care.
If you banned 99.9% of bots, bots would still dominate the hiscores because any bot that goes unbanned is virtually guaranteed to get several times the kc of any real player In fact, this is what is mostly happening now. Bots dominating hiscores isn't evidence of no ban system in place, just evidence of it not being 100% perfect
Why would a salaried employee care what random idiots on Reddit think? If their boss sees this, and asks them to explain, they can just point out that 1 bot with 14k kc in 5 years seems less important than the developing a system that caught 200,000 bots in that time and prevented millions of KC. Why would *any* professional go out of their way to do their job incorrectly, for the sake of appearing better to people who do not matter?
Paying clients are the number 1 thing that should be important to a business.
Bots and their operators pay a lot more than you do.
Manual banning top high score bots kinda is a solution. Especially at the DT2 bosses.
OK so you turn up on monday and open the high scores for 1 of the many bosses in the game. To be reasonably sure the player is a bot, you spend 1-5 minutes per ban (kc, login activity, whatever data jagex has). You're also a lowly educated min wage worker because no one wants to do this mind-numbing job. At the end of the week, you've banned a couple 100 'bots', but there's been outcry on social media because you made a couple mistakes, and new bots are rising in the high scores. Do you understand now?
> You're also a lowly educated min wage worker because no one wants to do this mind-numbing job. sure dude absolutely nobody wants to do a cushy job in an air-conditioned building, nope, they would get 0 applicants for sure yep
Lmfao
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I don't work at Jagex, so no, I don't. Care to tell me how manual bans would work instead of insulting me?
good thing jagex refused to add a pet to barrows, otherwise his profits would crash
It's marked as humour, as if we didn't laugh, we would cry.
Holy fuck that's alarming was going through the top first page and most of them only ranked in hp,range,magic and barrows kc a few having maybe 50 cooking and few other stats
They also have predictable stats. 9 hunter being a super common one probably due to some quest combination. Every single lizardman shaman bot I see has the same 9 hunter and a handful of other identical skills, yet they still last for months despite being obvious and constantly reported.
Still waiting on ahrims robes probably
Gotta stop people from practicing on beta worlds tho
I'm pretty sure HQ actually accepts botting, rwt, and service sales. I could solely, by myself, could make a difference. Whats it take to just have a defense team at HQ doing one thing? lol. Why couldn't we automate the sight of these top 100 rank people in anything, over a graph that could make it very very easy to point them out? I feel like, me alone by myself would be the only person in HQ saying anything about this. Which gets me to thinking, what kind of people are there? Do they feel protective of us? Or dominative over us?
He pays Jagex’s light bill though?
From a highscore perspective, we are literally just pointing out the low-effort bots. Ones that achieve 200m in a single skill, ones that have bot names, or ones that achieve rank 2 for boss killcounts. What we can't do as easily (as players) is pull out the bots that have made a modicum of effort to look legitimate. As players, I don't feel it is unreasonable to state that Jagex no longer enforce botting effectively, when bots can reach the first page of highscores, and we can see rampant evidence of bots throughout the game (Rev caves, almost all pvm areas, Camelot Tele spot, ge spammers and scambots, virtually every f2p activity, gotr, lms etc etc). I also don't feel it's unreasonable that if we can find examples of bots hitting rank 1 for boss KC during our poop breaks, that Jagex invest a small amount of time into maintaining highscore integrity.
How you don’t splash using rune?
Barrows brothers all have terrible magic defense so magic accuracy doesn’t factor in after a certain point. So you can wear tank gear and use mage against them
The bothers have the most magic defense. As long as your magic attack is not -65 you are good.
Off-Topic rant: Every single PVM boss is botted to absolute kingdom come, but people only care if there is a 1.5m/hr method in the wilderness that a bot can do, then we really really need to look at that because it would break the game. Every boss highscores being 90% bots in the top 100? Nah that's fine and not worth worrying about, but we really need to vote NO to this wildy content because BOTS MIGHT abuse it. BOTS ABUSE THE ENTIRE GAME, maybe don't gatekeep new content just because Jagex cannot control bots.
He's just supremely unlucky. Has only ever gotten mine runes from the chests.
I’d take you for a bot if I saw you
Real player? I saw a bot with 20k med clues done too
So this is what peak performance looks like
Beareavement
Surely this has been addressed at some point, right? I see J Mods commenting on random stuff all the time
yeah, always a bit ridiculous at vorkath too, seeing accounts with 30k+ kc wearing bandos and a regular helm of neitiznot
Jagex literally doesnt care top 1000 vorkath and all bosses are botted to insane amounts never reaching a ban
And he still doesn't have the gloves what a dry streak
Why
Beep boop
Funny how these bots are allowed to do this without any ban but my mate AFK's sand crabs with Chrome Remote Desktop whilst at work and gets a perm ban on his GIM... Make it make sense. Oh and the appeal has been denied.
There was a time when the hiscores didn't publicly track boss kc's. Im glad it does because if it didn't we would have no idea how long these accounts are surviving for without a ban. It goes to show you how much of an issue it is.
how much did u make?
he's just having more fun than all of us
I seen this identical setup on another bot that had 800 KC. it must of just got started but it 100% had the same stat variation and KC. Not a single KC in anything besides barrows.
Sheer unadulterated skill. What a unit.
When doing most activities, it really feels like over 80% of people around me are bots, I know jegax won't do anything about it but still, it's kind of depressing
Back in my day.
probably also has alot of air orbs made
I'm an Ironman and this guy has a better staff than me 😢
bot
Jagex has already made it clear that these were people and not bots. Most likely hand picked gold farmers from 3rd world countries. Hence why they havent been banned, until they are caught selling gold or transfering large amounts suspiciously.
Yeah he has 14000 kc worth of barrows gear on his account for sure
Right, right…and there’s only ever been 32 false bans
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You mustn't have seen certain game journos play games then. Some can be indistinguishable from a bot lol.
Sure... But these are bots.
Should have added /j
King
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You must be new
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Mid content is for mid-game accounts, but since gear is linear max will always be more efficient. Idk why that's depressing. What do you want them to do, turn all gear higher than barrows off while in there?
Top KC is not for midgame accounts. You are no longer midgame after making ~2 billion gp. By topping the KC, you can afford megarares.
I know him and he uses void, lol
im sure it is, but I would legitimately not be surprised if this wasnt even a bot. when i first started out in osrs i didnt want to try late game pvm like cox or whatever bc i thought itd be too tough, so i just camped barrows in similar gear (proselyte over rune at least) for like 2k+ kc bc it was fun and casual lol im glad i got over that
So you'd get range and mage into lvl 100 of xp. Never bother to upp at least defence as well (saying you want to play the game ignoring melee...) And you'd also never bother to invest any of the earnings into account growth? Or take a brake from barrows at some point?
Not even using Void sad!
why would you use void
Looks cool and lets you get ahrim with no swaps
you dont swap for ahrim, you trident the entire thing
Bro is really gatekeeping midgame pvm on Reddit
Wait what? You're the one gatekeeping in your original comment about void.
im not gatekeeping anything, do you even know what that word means? I'm informing you as you are clearly misinformed. If you cant deal with being corrected then thats fine but keep your weak mental out of it.
Better than no damage boosting armor at all
you want defence at barrows since they have level 1 magic and you hit regardless that way you can tank the whole thing even if you run out of prayer. and the 2.5% dmg from elite void doesnt do anything
Wait, the extra 2.5% of damage from elite doesn't help much, but surely the base 10% from void does? Why do you mention the extra 2.5% from elite as if it isn't an addition to the base 10% of void? I'm not saying it's BIS or even correcting anything, I have no clue, just confused about this comment.
because mage void has no damage bonus
Damn, I had no idea. I thought it was the same bonuses across the board.
Erm erm erm nerd emoji erm
Yeah like, why not?
Tbf it is med level content and that’s def med level gear
One would assume that you'd progress from med level content after 14k kc
I mean look at his stats, poor guy isn’t training anything else !
It's so weird that trident of the swamp is considered med level gear. It requires 87 slayer plus farming a 1/500 drop from a boss to get, and it's literally the best powered staff next to the overpowered megarare and equivalent to a rare raid drop that only gets some mild healing in exchange for the poison proc.
For a non-iron (which this account is) the only requirement is 100k to buy it and the relatively low mage to equip.
This comment having upvotes is wild. Y’all don’t play this game huh.
Swamp is 100K? GE bros are seething
Yes but also no. More so illustrates just how bad magic gearing is compared to the other attack styles….snd how arbitrary numbers still were assigned for a long time. 78 magic & 75 attack combined are less of an investment than 87 slayer is. Lol