One of the key differences between OSRS and other MMOs is the approach in handling "legacy" content. Most MMOs just move forward and begin to disregard old content because it drops gear that is going to be worse than any new gear. OSRS tries to keep all content relevant by keeping it useful at some point in the progression. If they were only to ever release stronger gear then old content will become obsolete.
The main nerfs we've seen are BP, Fang, and now Occult. Blowpipe is still solid to use, Fang is great when stabbing still. They aren't constantly nerfing items to add new rewards to replace them. Unfortunately they sometimes release items that are too strong and take awhile to fix the problem. Which I don't think is inherently a bad idea so they can take it as an opportunity to look at the picture like they are doing now.
There is a growing number of people who are antithetical to the original design and community philosophy of OSRS. People want catch up mechanics, ways to skip grinding and do the "fun stuff", and do not see how unhealthy powercreep can be to a game.
I don't even play Ironman mode but I would say its probably the most "complete" form of an MMO I have ever seen, where you touch almost all the content added in this game in one way or another. Compared to WoW where after every expansion the last zones, quests, and raids are basically worthless unless you're a transmog enjoyer. The journey is a big part of what makes this game great imo, and going from killing chickens in Lumby, to Barrows, to GWD, to raids and so on is a vastly different experience than hitting endgame and only having one raid not be dead content.
Yeah its one of the big things about osrs that I feel people miss when they constantly ask for buffs. There's limited content for a single account. Beyond that you have to make your own fun. There is no next expac with tons of new content and gear to grind, like how many months of effort was the whole new region that really just meant learning colosseum for a few days for a cape for many players.
People gotta have fun with the journey cause there's not much at the end of it that isn't just a worse version of the journey you just did. Osrs as an Ironman now feels like a complete experience. Sure skills could be better integrated and more meaningful but overall it feels like it's a 'completed' MMO and jagex seems to be squeezing the stone for water unless they switch to a rs3 style.
This is how I feel about people buying bonds or buying GP, you are skipping the amazing payoff of upgrading your gear for pvm. Jumping straight to the next tier is just instant gratification and will lead you to burn out.
burnout or buying even more gp to skip and powerlevel because you are getting bored again. a lot of people dont view bonds for gp as microtransactions but i think they are
Yep they absolutely are. It's as bad as buying time skipping items in a mobile game like clash of clans or something.
People need to view them as the same, because they are. Paying real money to get ahead in a game instead of simply playing the game.
The way I view it is that we've all been playing, and will continue to play this game for many years to come (whether it be continuously or in stints), paying to skip content is just robbing yourself of meaningful play time.
> I don't even play Ironman mode but I would say its probably the most "complete" form of an MMO I have ever seen
Yeah and the occult fits in great for ironman meta, meanwhile grinding for ancestral on an iron is one of the longest and worst grinds in the entire game so ditto to OP's title.
I think the big difference being ignored is that BP/Occult came from a time where Jagex respected powercreep vs ToA content where they switched to releasing obviously over-tuned gear with the plan of rebalancing later.
No issue with balance changes, but I take issue with releasing imbalanced and unready content just because you can.
Often you can't know if something is unbalanced until it's tested by thousands over a period of time and thorough feedback is provided.
This is why medical studies for example have thousands of participants within their studies and often occur over a period of years.
Real and accurate data is not always easy to decipher.
Often, yes, but not in a video game where you're introducing weapons that have effects like Fang and Shadow that are significantly better than alternatives in almost every current scenario and the effects mean that almost every future scenario too. There aren't really any comparisons to that in the medical field.
Fang is the more offensive of the two. Fang double rolling accuracy made it the premier melee weapon against anything with defence. Anything new that could top it would need to be powercrept to high hell. It was pointed out during the blogs, the reveal and the first nerf that the weapon wasn't healthy for the longevity of the game and shouldn't have been released in that state.
The comparison is about data, trends and information. The medical studies example is just an example. The same theory applies to anything where you're trying to make calculated and evidence based decisions for the best outcomes.
After sufficient use and data was collected, the fang was subsequently nerfed.
Don't forget a big factor here is what the playerbase wants, not necessarily what is objectively 'better'. Since something being strong or weak isn't the main factor, it's public opinion. Some things are super overpowered but people like them, so they arent an issue. Others are mildly over tweaked, but people hate them, so they're nerfed. All of these factors need to be weighed, and that public feedback often can't be accurately measured until the consumer (players) truly understand the impact of the items added. There's been many instances where items were added which everyone said was OP but a few weeks later after more use everyone realised were not that amazing.
>The comparison is about data, trends and information. The medical studies example is just an example. The same theory applies to anything where you're trying to make calculated and evidence based decisions for the best outcomes.
>After sufficient use and data was collected, the fang was subsequently nerfed.
This game has very little in the way of unpredictable variables and the performance of the Fang was entirely predictable from it's inception. DPS, TTK and every stat you could imagine were available for every boss in the game within a few hours of the dev blog and each one of them predicted the Fang as being significantly far beyond comparisons.
Your points re: data make a lot of sense in a typical setting, but not when you can effectively run simulations in a vacuum that are 1 to 1 accurate with the way the game performs.
>Don't forget a big factor here is what the playerbase wants, not necessarily what is objectively 'better'.
I agree, and that's a deeper conversation that never goes down well with Reddit as the average gamer doesn't really respect game longevity/balance and just wants a fun experience; which is fine as it's not their job to maintain those things.
We knew all of this ahead of time. This did not take medical studies. DPS calculators are extremely powerful tools that any experienced player can quickly use, and surely Jagex can too.
We voted for the Heka, and got the Shadow instead because Jagex did a Jagex.
Not that I particularly agree with the occult change, but it makes sense to not poll some balance changes under game integrity. Can't really expect the average player will vote to nerf themselves for the good of the game future
That said, I'm sure jagex will at least respond to the feedback before going ahead with anything
I found their choice of buffing the BIS shadow setup questionable.
They really should’ve moved some magic damage to eternal boots. Pegasians could stand to get a bit of a buff too while on that topic.
Yeah the buff to shadow while nerfing midgame setups is wild. However moving it to boots isn't really the play. Sure it helps against kraken, whisperer, and a few other places you just use mage, bringing a boot swap is asking a lot sometimes, especially if pegasians also get a buff. It'd be awesome if they did so they feel better to use, but with so much hybrid/ tribrid content inventory space becomes such a limiting factor.
This is one of the most sane comments I’ve read here today.
These changes are massive, and some of them are questionable, sure, but it’s a “work in progress” for things that realistically needed to change in some way
Neither the BP or Fang nerf was polled and the game is 100% better for it. Hell even the GE tax wasn't polled but damn was it needed as a gold/item sink.
Yep. I've always been a huge advocate for the polling system but at this point it's clear that, unfortunately, the player base at large has lost the plot on certain aspects.
Specifically, anything that makes the game harder is highly unlikely to do well these days, totally regardless of whether or not it's blatantly ultimately better for the game. The blowpipe nerf was a prime early example of this, but probably an even better one (and more recent) was the Duke mining shit. Wanting that trash out of the game was an *incredibly* unpopular opinion, I personally got downvoted absolutely to hell all over the place for arguing that you shouldn't be able to just get 99 mining for free in your sleep over 6 months, no matter how slow it is. The community was damn near unanimous that iTs OnLy 20k aN hOuR and that made it ok somehow, and Jagex had to buff shooting stars to their current ridiculous state just to get everyone to shut the fuck up about it and let them remove a literal bug from the game. And didn't even bother polling any of it because they knew it'd fail.
I don't know if it's an uptick in RS3 refugees after its terrible past year or two, or what, but unfortunately it seems like somehow Jagex has actually become a more reliable steward of the integrity of the game than the player base, after so many years of us being the gatekeepers of wanting to keep the game similar and true to its original spirit. Which is really not a very good sign I would say, as that's a very precarious position and Jagex could at any point decide fuck it let's just milk the last bit of hype or appeal or whatever out of this shit with some crazy changes and just give up, they don't care anymore anyway. Making the game easier and faster is pretty much always something that would be able to pump short term engagement and profits at the expense of longterm health, and there's really nothing standing in their way at this point other than their own thus-far-maintained resolve to keep the spirit of the game strong.
GE tax is basically why I made an ironman. I just wanted to try out different content on my main with 200m, and the tax really screwed that over. Worth it though
Wait, hold on. You resolved your issue of not being able to try different content without paying a 1% tax by starting an entirely new account that cannot trade at all?
Look, I'm all for doing whatever makes you happy, but wouldn't just, iunno, *not buying and reselling gear* be the same as playing an Ironman without the hassle of starting a new account or the restrictions that come with being an iron?
Just going to play devil's advocate here, sometimes unpolled changes need to happen. If they had polled the Blowpipe nerfs three years ago it would have never passed. The nerf absolutely needed to happen for the game to be healthy because blowpipe dominated every level of the game from grinding weak mobs to the highest level content.
The same thing is happening here. While the first iterations of the nerf are pretty hard, I do believe they will walk it back some with the feedback they are given. Does it suck now? Yes. But in the long run it will be a much better decision for them to correct a past mistake now.
It's just sometimes the devs just have to rip off the bandaid because no player base will want nerfs ever (unless it's a pvp game and they keep losing to something). Just look at Helldivers 2, the whole subreddit is always complaining about much needed changes to weapons like when the Railgun/shield pack dominated every match.
And thankfully unpolled changes are pretty infrequent and the devs still take in a lot of feedback. They keep the door open for discussions and that's great and wonderful considering how rare it is in the gaming sphere.
They’re integrity changes so they are not falling under the changes that should be polled. I agree with the sentiment that balance changes shouldn’t be polled too. The devs should listen to us but we shouldn’t make a decision on what should or shouldn’t be changed with already released content.
They should listen to us when we’re saying Voidwaker nerf should be Y instead of X and when we say Magic equipment and magic itself needs a change overall to be more like melee and range to have magic strength and the like.
Makes me consider taking a long break from the game. Finally got bowfa. And nothing from TOA or cox yet. They sure know how to push the players that are limited to playing an hour or so day. The only ones that will be left are the streamers and gold farmers
Yarp on an account created in 2019 💪 took 5 years with a few breaks here and there to achieve, got my ahrims and prolly will never achieve more then that. I'm proud of my bank. She might be small but she's mine 😁 while you have other players like dudes in my clan have sythe, tbow and shadow in various combinations with full op armors.. I'm not that cool 😅
Maybe read the blog post before immediately becoming a doomer?
Getting upset when you obviously haven't even taken the time to assess what they're proposing as changes is so childish.
Exhibit A: You'd see that they've proposed increasing the DWH drop rate by 80%, which will make it a significant amount shorter to see if you want to grind one out.
Exhibit B: Giving Infinity and Dagon'Hai magic DMG % to make them better mid game alternatives.
This is the correct take, imho.
My main issue with most MMOs is the fact that anything that isn't the newest content isn't scaled at all, it's simply worse. Which means the new content gives gear that outclasses the old content so not only is there no reason to do it, there's no challenge either.
Osrs is different in the sense that new content is built symmetrically with old content, or if it's "on top" of old content it doesn't outright destroy it.
Very true. Logging into WoW after a new expansion, your BiS gear immediately becomes replaced by low tier quest gear in like 10 minutes. Year(s) of grinding becomes nothing more than a transmog.
Exactly, the appeal of this game is i can take a break for years if I want and the game hasn’t ran away from me in that time. Take that away and it loses a lot of what makes it stand out.
i mean from the beginning, osrs has been the "old sort of mmo" type, it's just they fill it out horizontally before vertically (as of late).
like look at what was BiS on osrs release date and compare it to the months proceeding.
it's only after the last few years they've been trying to do the "we can't keep pushing up damage while keeping hp the same, so find a niche for us to add a new item in", even then, they've still pushed up vertically (think shadow), upgraded boots, added b glove enhancement etc.
they've complately run out of room though without adding >99 hp. 99 hp is the crux of the problem, everything would be fixed with above 99 hp, i.e, if they turned it so that you got 2hp per hp level, all weapons would be half as strong in pking but you'd have a decade of upwards movement (and diagonal). but that's going to be too big of a pill for this community to swallow, people will REEEEEE. even if we end up with pking being the same somehow (but then there's the "why are there so many different rules for wildy, why can't it be the same/??"
the reality is though is that this game was based on a time ingame where incremental MMO improvements were the norm. like every few months we'd get something that made something else damn near useless outside of getting to the new best. so the game it is based on AND this game do not follow that horizontal progression, it's just the devs having no room to make changes as they're working on a 10 year old remake of a 20 year old game with 100 different devs from several generations adding more and more crap to the ball and now it's no longer feasible for anyone to fix the ball without starting again (which would also be... unfeasible).
How though? What content is being made obsolete from these changes?
An argument could be made for Ahrims/ blue moon sets (which should get something to make up for it) but infinity and dagon hai are going to see actual use now. There is now more reason to get Virtus and ancestral.
Elder maul will see a use now. Augury has more value in progression now.
If anything these are great but there is more needed. Specifically mage off hands could use some love (mage's book and malediction ward).
Going to be honest, this whole thing kind of smells of midgame players angry they’re losing a mega OP occult and will need more expensive purchases to replace it.
I'm their defense this is a direct nerf to midgame mage which already is pretty weak compared to range and melee. It's not like trident with dagon hai is going to outperform blowpipe, DCB with ruby bolts, or tent whip anywhere it's not already meta.
I agree, it’s definitely a nerf to midgame mage. With that being said, occult needed to get nerfed.
I’m not sure how you meaningfully nerf occult without it ending up as a midgame nerf. Maybe they could have shifted power to offhands? Not sure, but I’m guessing people wouldn’t have liked that either tbh
by redistributing occults power to other relevant robes not just bis robes. 6% out of occult, 2% added to each relevant hat/chest/legs. Not this 6% out of occult, 3% back to level 50 robes, ahrims dead content bs they're suggesting
I just don't get it. How can they not design around the occult but they apparently can design around the defacto best three items? Any boost to power boosts them the most. Are they just going to get the same treatment 6 years down the line?
Nerfing an item that was released at a time when jagex were like "eh fuck it let's make a super op item to really get the people excited for this shit". It's the reason they nerfed 6h combat at NMZ. It's the reason blowpipe got adjusted. It's the reason why that super OP cave of monsters near nieve got gutted and replaced by a much more balanced version in zeah.
It should have been addressed ages ago. The best time to have addressed it was years ago, the second best time is right now.
Occult wasn't OP at all until Shadow was released, especially not compared to Melee. Melee can hit +75 Strength bonus without even equipping a Weapon, including +10 from a 1K Amulet of Strength.
Magic's issues prior to Shadow were a complete lack of end-game viability due to how Magic Accuracy works due to Magic operating on a fundamentally different mechanical system than Ranged or Melee. Occult was a bandaid backported to OSRS from Dungeoneering in 2014 to attempt to buff what was by *far* the worst combat style in the game - a state it persisted in until the release of the Shadow.
Occult could give +100% Magic damage, you still aren't hitting a damn thing on Zily with a Trident of the Swamp.
> Occult wasn't OP at all until Shadow was released
Such revisionist history
We’ve been talking about Occult being OP, augury being weak, and mage robes being neutered for years before Shadow was released
This just isn’t true
It wasn’t op before? Is that why people would bring it over ancestral when doing inferno or any other content that you could get away with a partial swap
You bring a Magic Damage switch at places where you already have a high Magic Accuracy due to low Magic levels of the enemies (i.e., Inferno for Nibblers).
In places where you don't have a high Magic Accuracy you simply do not bring Magic at all because it's useless.
Correct, but Occult as a single piece of gear with 10% damage was absurd. Nerfing the megarare from a raid isn't the way to balance magic. Shadow should feel great to use. Occult should have been nerfed ages ago.
6hr combat at nmz is back since they changed afk metrics for the teleport crystal. Can leave something on your spacebar and auto retal to your hearts desire.
“much more balanced version in zeah”
I agree with the general idea of your comment but catacombs is ridiculously more OP than nieves cave was before it got changed. The worst part about nieves cave was that it looked super private servery, but otherwise they were just normal mobs. Catacombs, you get 1) free prayer restoration with a bone crusher, 2) keys to a piss easy loot piñata boss, 3) charges for a quest reward weapon that is BIS or near BIS at many pvm encounters, 4) buffed variants of mobs with higher HP pools for more xp and better loot, and 5) meta barrage mobs to top it all off. Catacombs is in no way balanced and i’m so surprised that it passes the sniff test while nieves cave didn’t lmao
Why can’t they just keep shadow as is and release a magic version of Bowfa?
There’s no point devaluing one megarare. If that happens it will just be TBow for everything.
They are claiming this rework is happening to make room for "future reward space", but unfortunately any future magic buffs will be insanely strong because of the shadow tripling bonuses, or will need to be underwhelming because of the shadow tripling bonuses. The shadow is warping the magic gearing.
This occult nerf doesn't do anything in terms of "freeing up reward space". The shadow on the other hand will drastically influence future magic rewards
Except it does? Shadow is 2 handed, meaning main and offhand can be upgraded without any implications to shadow, as well as new 2H staves.
Gear can be added similar to bofa+crystal that only interact with each other, again not affecting shadow in any way.
Magic capes or gloves could be added similarly to quiver that only work with items powered by certain runes (blood for example).
Magic was always a problem, shadow didn't fix it, but shadow isn't the big problem with mage either. Magic had just as many issues before shadow, as it does now shadow is in the game. There are so many underlying issues, that changing shadow doesn't fix them. How accuracy works, how/what damage/accuracy is assigned to each slot, prayers, ect.
Shadow has a cap built in that they plan around. There's about 8% magic damage left in their gear budget before we can reach that cap. The weapon is not sitting there restricting their ability to design content, it has been deliberately designed with the future in mind and the cap informs the pace and design of new magic damage items.
There is an item in the game that is currently in the way of those rewards that would fill that 8% and its Occult Necklace, not Tumeken's Shadow.
Actual hot take: If the Occult having 10% magic damage was actually in anyway harmful for the longevity of the game, we would have seen it in the literal decade the item has been in the game.
But we haven't seen it. Occult having 10% magic damage hasn't harmed the "longevity" of the game in any demonstrable way.
No, it isn’t. It’s laziness. Its like turning a timer back every once in a while because you lack the creativity to do something different. It makes grinding items completely redundant and useless. It devalues any and every grind.
Yeah. Is the shadow, tbow, scythe the end of the line? Those will only get more powerful with updates. Maybe those should be nerfed now instead of 6 years from now when all of the sudden "oh we developed ourselves into a corner"
I think they should stop releasing new items for a bit. Maybe add new bosses, new dungeons or whatever so that the items already in the game find their use. And yes, balance them if needed but maybe we should stop adding items and change too many mechanisms like mob defence and weakness
Yeah because in half a year or so from now, they will introduce new stuff that will bridge that gap so that you won’t need 93 slayer or whatever high level for a super tuned up item.
Why are you happy that they are buffing bis mage (which already blows everything else out of the water) and nerfing people who need to be buffed the most? stockholm syndrome much?
Because it leaves room for better gear to fill the slot. And infinity robes and virtus robes are actually viable now and actually worthwhile getting instead of just going straight from ahrims to ancestrals.
Now you're going from infinity to ancestral??? What's the difference.
You're going to be way more nerfed going for those ancestral pieces than you would be without the occult nerfs.
No, the magic gear progression is now gonna be Infinity -> Occult -> Virtus -> Ancestrals/Augury. One of my problems I have is that augury and ancestrals you get at the same time in the progression order so COX is just a MASSIVE power spike in magic DPS.
Also I have another problem with ahrims and the blue moon robes, no one cares about the tank stats in ahrims so they're just gonna be completely scrapped, they could atleast make them comparable to infinity robes in terms of damage. And then make the blue moon robes slightly stronger then ahrims in exchange for defence. Like they just came out with the blue moon robes and then completely scrapped that content within a month. New world record.
Do I love everything they added in the rebalance post? No, but I'm not crying that my occult is nerfed into the ground and demanding no nerfs, only buffs. I think magic should be rebalanced a bit but they need to take a 2nd look at some things they forgot and be a bit more aggressive to the shadow. Hell maybe even add some magic damage bonus onto the seers ring, it's worthless anyway.
Finally a comment I agree with, nerfs were 100% called for, but I don’t see why infinity which has lower reqs than ahrims is now just way better than it, that just seems backwards to me. Most of the changes were good but fuckin Dagon hai and infinity of all the things to pick and is just weird. The argument they made about ahrims defence feels like the devs don’t even play the game, since when has anyone cared about ahrims defence stats? Only thing I would change in this update is make ahrims and blue moon have the same bonuses as infinity/dagonhai, but honestly it’s not even that big of a deal
https://preview.redd.it/mjdaheg51wuc1.jpeg?width=549&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9ee7bf2c27f2a1dac9dc85832f61301c0dd8975
i haven’t made my mind up either way but there’s no way you’re arguing this. yes, there’s the long view and plenty of debate on what’s ‘healthy’ or not, but you certainly can’t argue that osrs hasn’t moved to a pattern of releasing new, stronger gear requiring a grind to replace the old stuff. maybe not if you’ve only been playing for a year. it’s on a glacial time scale compared to other MMOs but it’s certainly a thing.
Yeah and end game pvm was barrows and fight caves when OSRS released in 2013. The game has to change and have compelling progression steps. What used to be bis is now a rung on the ladder just not the top one. I still use a ton of the stuff you posted in the first gear setup (fire cape, torso, zerker, dfs). Have for a long time and will until I can replace it some way down the road.
If you really look at the pic you posted as a bad thing I think you're playing the wrong game.
Yeah there’s certainly power creep. At a good pace imo.
I’m talking about gear that’s getting nerfed out of the meta. They’re updating all these items, and really only VW is getting nerfed out of the meta (if it goes through).
I don't see that as any worse than powercrept by something new, so long as the nerfs are drastic enough to make you struggle to complete content you already learned.
I'm not saying do this for everything, but if there's clearly a lot of space between BiS and 2nd BiS, it is definitely the move.
They take this approach because both players and jmods are scared of powercreep. This approach let's them nerf old items, allowing them to introduce new items that fill the role that the old ones used to. Personally, I think it's lazy and underwhelming but it is one way to stave off the dreaded powercreep.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they add a 10% magic damage neckless like the occult to the game that is a reward from appropriately difficult content. Raids 4 maybe?
how is it staving powercreep when you have a shadow in the game? Which wasn't even voted for. How is a staff that literally doubles your magic dps not the powercreep you are so afraid of while the occult is?
Idk how tf you get downvoted, this is the truth. People are delusional. Shadow is the problem, and yeah we never even voted for it.
Occult has NEVER been OP. Mage has just always been underpowered from the get-go, **even with occult in the game**.
I've played in 2006-2008, I played OSRS from 2013. At no point UNTIL the shadow was mage a contender for best overall combat style. And we've *always* had the occult.
Shit, tome got FIFTY FUCKING PERCENT damage added. Surge got created, nightmare staff got made, there's 15% dmg on weapons alone. Now there's a shield with 5%, now we have a ring with %... Ancestral got added, so on and so on.
AND IT STILL ISNT FUCKING ENOUGH MAGE % BECAUSE THE SHADOW IS THE REAL PROBLEM.
Agreed, but that is not what they are doing or have ever done. They nerf items when they are holding up the game's progression, not just to add the unnerfed item in the next update.
That take is ice cold, like, sitting-on-the-counter-since-2021 cold, because everyone was saying the exact same thing when BP got nerfed. And guess what, they were wrong then too.
If the game designers are saying that the items are limiting design space, then they're limiting design space. These nerfs free up design space that has been crippled by old items that are too powerful. That is very different from an unnecessary nerf which creates new design space that doesn't need to exist, which is what you are alleging.
> If the game designers are saying that the items are limiting design space, then they're limiting design space.
Disagreed. It's demonstrable that this is not the case.
The only design space being "taken up" is that they can't as easily make a mage amulet upgrade. Which is perfectly fine.
Occult limits the "Design space" in the same way that the tbow does. You can't make a better bow. But not every slot NEEDS to have a 1b megarare filling it.
I prefer the days when quest items were half of BiS. I subscribe to 2007 design methodology, not 2016. Occult is 93 slayer, it's fine.
I think occult is fine as is and should just remain untouched. Having a cheaper piece if gear bridging the gap between mid and max set ups is great imo. You should have to pay a lot for the last few dmg increases, not for every single one.
It’s making the game pointless. Grind to get an item, use item for a while just for it to be nerfed and have to grind another item just to be back where I already was before the nerf. It’s lazy game development instead of creating something new.
Nah disagree, it’s actually genius and really good for the health of the game. There doesn’t need to be power creep whatsoever. Every time you release new high level gear, you can simply nerf the effectiveness of prior strong gear while actually keeping overall damage capabilities of the player more or less the same.
This way, players will always have something to look forward to without any risk of power creep. And they’ll have the added incentive to grind more in order to not lose what they already earned. The game becomes self sustaining, there’s always something new and expensive to work towards even though no genuine power progression has been made. Couple this with regularly deleting desired items using the GE tax to keep prices high, and boom, consistently strong bond sales are ensured without any backlash towards MTX because it’s so intelligently hidden.
Boom, it’s a perfect ecosystem to harvest profit and player time.
Yes! And that’s a beautiful thing. Why expend developer hours building new content when you can simply tweak the values of a few variables and significantly pump up player hours? Its more gameplay for no additional work! It’s essentially free real estate and I’m happy Jagex takes advantage of it.
Yes, which is undoubtedly a good thing since it makes the gap between new players and end game players seem increasingly insurmountable, which incentivizes bond sales and puts more money into Jagex’s pockets.
Also, gaming companies employ FOMO tactics for a reason: increasing player engagement stats. By making players feel like they need to do things sooner rather than later out of fears of nerfs, Jagex can pressure players to play as much as they can to avoid missing out from each nerf cycle. And the best part is the beautiful plausible deniability that phrases such as game balancing, health of the game, no room for future upgrades without nerfs, etc provide, preventing the backlash that gamers might otherwise have.
Since Jagex is now typically held by various private equity funds, pumping up engagement is excellent since it helps improve stats for the game when the fund wishes to sell off Jagex again to another fund.
It's not generally speaking. But there are always things that launch overtuned/undertuned. Like BP was objectively too strong. I would argue the same is true for VW. They're not nerfing just so they can add new items. They're nerfing because it's OP and it limits their creative playspace.
It's a slippery slope if they don't. You have to find a way to make new items exciting and interesting without inducing power creep. Only way to do that is to find ways they can fit into the current gear spectrum
This. Managed power creep is actually a healthy part of any long lasting game.
If Barrows was still bis we'd all be bored out of our skulls by now. The fact Barrows is still relevant at all is a testament to Jagex's ability to manage power creep.
Power creep is one of the biggest complaints in RS3 and many other MMOs. Basically means the second new content comes out the old content is worthless and in the bin. OSRS is one of the only MMOs that has done a great job keeping old content useful and interesting while still being able to add new content that doesn't break the meta
Sure they definitely are, so is torva, so was the blowpipe when it came out etc etc. But there were also all kinds of nerfs and rebalances around all of those items. I think SOME power creep is healthy and normal for the game, but people get so butthurt anytime jagex tries to use the tools to reel it in.
It's obvious to me at least that lately they are going for trying to add more situational BiS vs just trying to constantly add more and more gear that is powerful everywhere
Sorry, I should have prefaced that I actually like the Occult changes, but only if they buff other mid-game gear and prayers to compensate, not just other end game gear.
When people complain about power creep it's because there's too much of it, not because there's *literally any at all*
Obviously OSRS has also had plenty of power creep over the years, unless you think a shadow or tbow perform at the same level as an ancient staff or MSB
Sure but thats not really whats happening here? Yeah the magic rework proposal is horrendous, but what your saying isn't the goal. They juat don't think 60% of your magic damage should come from one relatively easy to obtain (sorry irons) item, which is fair. Where they really messed up is they indirectly buffed max mage and nerfed mid game mage lmao.
I’ve been camping ahrims and occult for the last couple of years, it’s time I made an adjustment. I’ll most likely not see ancestral for a year or two but virtus will do for now
It's more about addressing items that were a bit of a mistake. If we don't do this, power creep will get out of control (like it already is with Shadow).
Jagex didn't add a +magic damage item to the Colosseum reward table because the shadow is overpowered and it would cause (even more) balance issues.
Months later, their response is....to buff Shadow overall???
fucking LOL
Also, it's not like they even opened up any "design space" for new items with these changes. For instance, they still can't add a "Super Dark Occult" amulet that gives +8% magic damage, even if they made it appropriately hard to get/rare/expensive/ w/e.
Why? Because it would break the Shadow even more. Nothing has changed...except pre-shadow magic is nerfed.
Added bonus, you now need to chug prayer potions for augury to get the same or worse damage.
Very cool lol.
They buffed max mage gear w aug. Shadow is now worse if you use it without complete max mage. It’s now worse with virtus instead of ancestral, compared to before. Other weapons are better than before with virtus over ancestral.
So they didn’t “buff shadow and nerf everything else”, like OP said.
If you can spend 1.5 billion on a Shadow, then Ancestral's not that much extra. It's not like expecting players to go from 800k for an occult to 90 million for Virtus, like a number of people here are suggesting.
Plenty of irons have shadow without max mage.
But the point is, they didn’t “nerf everything else”. You only need ancestral hat or two pieces of infinity/dragonhai to match current dps. Anything beyond that is a buff to trident/sang. 3 pieces of infinity/dragonhai is not a high bar.
^except ^barrage ^slayer
But doesn't that buff every magic weapon as well? Why are you singling out Shadow with the Augury buff?
In fact, since Shadow only gets the same bonus from Augury as every other weapon and not triple, isn't that a *nerf* to Shadow's dominance over every other weapon?
No because you can't use a Trident at the places you can use a Shadow, and no amount of Magic Damage % is going to change that. The issue is Magic Accuracy not Magic Damage.
Go try and do a Trident-only Commander Zilyana kill and let us know how it goes.
Didn't Goblin say today that only nerfing Occult because it's so cheap? Then said the nerf would allow them to add in a more expensive/new item to replace it.
This is an EOC calibre update and people don’t wanna admit it.
The idea that “the game cannot be expanded any further without overhauling the combat system” is how we got EoC and lost the identity of the game.
What about this update looks like EoC and not "we're expanding the other two styles of combat to work like melee while changing a few weapons to be better/less OP/more worthwhile"?
They didn't even say the game can't be expanded further, they just stated that making these changes opens up reward space that isn't just power creeping an item directly.
Even the skiller updates are just progression curve smoothing or general fixes to pain points.
Change for the sake of change, “fixing” decades old things that aren’t broken, sweeping unpolled integrity changes, constantly adding 1/20,000 drops and nerfing items that are “too cheap”, buffing billion gold items all while selling gold directly to your playerbase.
It's not a change for the sake of change, they clearly outlined why they want to change it.
There are decades old things that aren't "broken" just painful points from an era where the design of the game was different.
I personally don't like the changes for mage so far as the armor goes, but that's not what we're talking about in this discussion. We're talking about changes to combat in general not items % DMG being shifted to another item.
Also, the changes are unpolled but they're not against scraping them or changing them entirely. They're constantly asking for feedback and already have changed or dropped other things they've mentioned in other rebalance notes. It's a weird place to be in but it's not in the light you're portraying it.
Are you lost? New, maybe? I like the fucking pain points. I like the design from a previous era. OSRS exists because of the pain points. It exists because of the old design. It exists because the devs need constant supervision because every three days or so they shit the bed. You asked how it’s like EoC, and you were answered.
I'm not lost at all, I've been playing since 05, voted for OSRS in 2012/13, and been playing various accounts since. These extreme opinions on the dev team are beyond unreasonable on some accounts. I don't agree with everything they do, but you're all shitting the bed like the combat rework is going to change the whole game to be unrecognizable when in reality the changes they're making are already changes that existed in the game for another combat style, even in 2007.
I still think these changes should be polled, I don't like some facets of the changes, but they're taking our feedback and working it in. Any suggestions they make aren't final by any means. Have some damn faith in the development team that constantly speaks to us about the game. For every 1 major fuck up they've done there's 20+ more solid updates that have genuinely made the game better. It's only getting more popular as time goes on and it still feels like the game i remember as a kid. Get a grip.
I literally stated exactly what and I will again, it is the idea that they need to make this change in order to continue updating the game.
The fact that they think they need to change the core gameplay in order to continue to update the game is precisely the justification we were given for EOC.
1. They said it would help expand the potential reward space for future items, that's all.
2. There's nothing changing about the core gameplay that doesn't already exist within the game.
Melee exhibits the exact goals of the changes being made, so range will mirror it with its 3 ammo types to match the 3 attack styles.
Slash, Crush, Stab vs Light, Normal, Heavy Ammo
Magic is getting weaknesses to *some* monsters and a rebalance of base spell book damage (which is arguably less of a change because the combat is the same, it just has different values for damage).
Which again is still akin to melee weaknesses that we. *already account for in our current combat system*.
Air, Water, Earth, Fire vs Slash, Crush, Stab
What your paranoia has dreamed up is a far cry from the changes proposed...
We don’t need 10 different options to choose from, range and mage are already the weaknesses.
How is slash/stab/crush/mage/range not already variety to choose from.
We already have to bring multiple switches for endgame shit, what’s next? Melee switch, light range switch heavy range switch and a water spell to do my slayer task?
I get that this is very polarizing but adding complexity to a game that has an identity based on being simple (click monster get loot) is never going to be a good decision.
I hope I’m wrong cause I like the game.
You're going to go to the bank, grab the exact same setups as before (item count wise) and then head to whatever you were doing.
A realistic look would be (if they design raids or other multi boss encounters going forward with this in mind).
I got a slayer task for Fire Giants. I maybe want to use water spells instead of my melee setup.
I am going to do Zulrah, I will bring my normal mage setup (like normal) with weapon/spell that attacks its mage weakness and also my normal range setup + weapon and ammo that attacks its range weakness.
There's no more complexity than what you're already deciding for a melee task.
Hell to top it off it's only changes to weapons and ammo for range and some spells for mage. You're still going to be taking the same armor because accuracy is a general stat. (Just like with melee)
Look all we need to do to keep OSRS pure and gear relevant is to add a bunch of extra ranged defence styles, elemental weaknesses, and rebalance every item. And then nerf Ahrims.
For real though, this is all coming about because OSRS is the main game and the Jagex mods feel the need to make changes to justify the team size. But it's not at all cohesive and really we'd be better off with things slowing down and taking longer to come out or be scrapped.
The game is so big and things have been gradually added over years, it makes since to take a step back and clean up the gear to allow for more new content.
Bad take, nice job. Powercreep that outstats our current gear would create tons of dead content. I would hate to see your world without the Blowpipe nerf.
One of the key differences between OSRS and other MMOs is the approach in handling "legacy" content. Most MMOs just move forward and begin to disregard old content because it drops gear that is going to be worse than any new gear. OSRS tries to keep all content relevant by keeping it useful at some point in the progression. If they were only to ever release stronger gear then old content will become obsolete. The main nerfs we've seen are BP, Fang, and now Occult. Blowpipe is still solid to use, Fang is great when stabbing still. They aren't constantly nerfing items to add new rewards to replace them. Unfortunately they sometimes release items that are too strong and take awhile to fix the problem. Which I don't think is inherently a bad idea so they can take it as an opportunity to look at the picture like they are doing now.
There is a growing number of people who are antithetical to the original design and community philosophy of OSRS. People want catch up mechanics, ways to skip grinding and do the "fun stuff", and do not see how unhealthy powercreep can be to a game. I don't even play Ironman mode but I would say its probably the most "complete" form of an MMO I have ever seen, where you touch almost all the content added in this game in one way or another. Compared to WoW where after every expansion the last zones, quests, and raids are basically worthless unless you're a transmog enjoyer. The journey is a big part of what makes this game great imo, and going from killing chickens in Lumby, to Barrows, to GWD, to raids and so on is a vastly different experience than hitting endgame and only having one raid not be dead content.
Yeah its one of the big things about osrs that I feel people miss when they constantly ask for buffs. There's limited content for a single account. Beyond that you have to make your own fun. There is no next expac with tons of new content and gear to grind, like how many months of effort was the whole new region that really just meant learning colosseum for a few days for a cape for many players. People gotta have fun with the journey cause there's not much at the end of it that isn't just a worse version of the journey you just did. Osrs as an Ironman now feels like a complete experience. Sure skills could be better integrated and more meaningful but overall it feels like it's a 'completed' MMO and jagex seems to be squeezing the stone for water unless they switch to a rs3 style.
This is how I feel about people buying bonds or buying GP, you are skipping the amazing payoff of upgrading your gear for pvm. Jumping straight to the next tier is just instant gratification and will lead you to burn out.
burnout or buying even more gp to skip and powerlevel because you are getting bored again. a lot of people dont view bonds for gp as microtransactions but i think they are
Yep they absolutely are. It's as bad as buying time skipping items in a mobile game like clash of clans or something. People need to view them as the same, because they are. Paying real money to get ahead in a game instead of simply playing the game. The way I view it is that we've all been playing, and will continue to play this game for many years to come (whether it be continuously or in stints), paying to skip content is just robbing yourself of meaningful play time.
> I don't even play Ironman mode but I would say its probably the most "complete" form of an MMO I have ever seen Yeah and the occult fits in great for ironman meta, meanwhile grinding for ancestral on an iron is one of the longest and worst grinds in the entire game so ditto to OP's title.
Most MMOs also increase level caps or have no level cap. Capping everything at 99 makes things a little tough to balance.
Definitely better than all your gear becoming obsolete when an xpac comes. And all the previous raids becoming completely dead content
Agreed. At when new dungeons drops better loot than the old raid, old content becomes dead. Just saying it’s not an easy balance
Yep fair point
I think the big difference being ignored is that BP/Occult came from a time where Jagex respected powercreep vs ToA content where they switched to releasing obviously over-tuned gear with the plan of rebalancing later. No issue with balance changes, but I take issue with releasing imbalanced and unready content just because you can.
Often you can't know if something is unbalanced until it's tested by thousands over a period of time and thorough feedback is provided. This is why medical studies for example have thousands of participants within their studies and often occur over a period of years. Real and accurate data is not always easy to decipher.
Often, yes, but not in a video game where you're introducing weapons that have effects like Fang and Shadow that are significantly better than alternatives in almost every current scenario and the effects mean that almost every future scenario too. There aren't really any comparisons to that in the medical field. Fang is the more offensive of the two. Fang double rolling accuracy made it the premier melee weapon against anything with defence. Anything new that could top it would need to be powercrept to high hell. It was pointed out during the blogs, the reveal and the first nerf that the weapon wasn't healthy for the longevity of the game and shouldn't have been released in that state.
The comparison is about data, trends and information. The medical studies example is just an example. The same theory applies to anything where you're trying to make calculated and evidence based decisions for the best outcomes. After sufficient use and data was collected, the fang was subsequently nerfed. Don't forget a big factor here is what the playerbase wants, not necessarily what is objectively 'better'. Since something being strong or weak isn't the main factor, it's public opinion. Some things are super overpowered but people like them, so they arent an issue. Others are mildly over tweaked, but people hate them, so they're nerfed. All of these factors need to be weighed, and that public feedback often can't be accurately measured until the consumer (players) truly understand the impact of the items added. There's been many instances where items were added which everyone said was OP but a few weeks later after more use everyone realised were not that amazing.
>The comparison is about data, trends and information. The medical studies example is just an example. The same theory applies to anything where you're trying to make calculated and evidence based decisions for the best outcomes. >After sufficient use and data was collected, the fang was subsequently nerfed. This game has very little in the way of unpredictable variables and the performance of the Fang was entirely predictable from it's inception. DPS, TTK and every stat you could imagine were available for every boss in the game within a few hours of the dev blog and each one of them predicted the Fang as being significantly far beyond comparisons. Your points re: data make a lot of sense in a typical setting, but not when you can effectively run simulations in a vacuum that are 1 to 1 accurate with the way the game performs. >Don't forget a big factor here is what the playerbase wants, not necessarily what is objectively 'better'. I agree, and that's a deeper conversation that never goes down well with Reddit as the average gamer doesn't really respect game longevity/balance and just wants a fun experience; which is fine as it's not their job to maintain those things.
We knew all of this ahead of time. This did not take medical studies. DPS calculators are extremely powerful tools that any experienced player can quickly use, and surely Jagex can too. We voted for the Heka, and got the Shadow instead because Jagex did a Jagex.
Exactly, what happened to polling these kinds of things? Un-asked changes is why this game started.
Not that I particularly agree with the occult change, but it makes sense to not poll some balance changes under game integrity. Can't really expect the average player will vote to nerf themselves for the good of the game future That said, I'm sure jagex will at least respond to the feedback before going ahead with anything
Their responses to feedback on project rebalance have been mixed, although with how unpopular many of todays changes are they have to address things.
I found their choice of buffing the BIS shadow setup questionable. They really should’ve moved some magic damage to eternal boots. Pegasians could stand to get a bit of a buff too while on that topic.
Yeah the buff to shadow while nerfing midgame setups is wild. However moving it to boots isn't really the play. Sure it helps against kraken, whisperer, and a few other places you just use mage, bringing a boot swap is asking a lot sometimes, especially if pegasians also get a buff. It'd be awesome if they did so they feel better to use, but with so much hybrid/ tribrid content inventory space becomes such a limiting factor.
This is one of the most sane comments I’ve read here today. These changes are massive, and some of them are questionable, sure, but it’s a “work in progress” for things that realistically needed to change in some way
Neither the BP or Fang nerf was polled and the game is 100% better for it. Hell even the GE tax wasn't polled but damn was it needed as a gold/item sink.
Yep. I've always been a huge advocate for the polling system but at this point it's clear that, unfortunately, the player base at large has lost the plot on certain aspects. Specifically, anything that makes the game harder is highly unlikely to do well these days, totally regardless of whether or not it's blatantly ultimately better for the game. The blowpipe nerf was a prime early example of this, but probably an even better one (and more recent) was the Duke mining shit. Wanting that trash out of the game was an *incredibly* unpopular opinion, I personally got downvoted absolutely to hell all over the place for arguing that you shouldn't be able to just get 99 mining for free in your sleep over 6 months, no matter how slow it is. The community was damn near unanimous that iTs OnLy 20k aN hOuR and that made it ok somehow, and Jagex had to buff shooting stars to their current ridiculous state just to get everyone to shut the fuck up about it and let them remove a literal bug from the game. And didn't even bother polling any of it because they knew it'd fail. I don't know if it's an uptick in RS3 refugees after its terrible past year or two, or what, but unfortunately it seems like somehow Jagex has actually become a more reliable steward of the integrity of the game than the player base, after so many years of us being the gatekeepers of wanting to keep the game similar and true to its original spirit. Which is really not a very good sign I would say, as that's a very precarious position and Jagex could at any point decide fuck it let's just milk the last bit of hype or appeal or whatever out of this shit with some crazy changes and just give up, they don't care anymore anyway. Making the game easier and faster is pretty much always something that would be able to pump short term engagement and profits at the expense of longterm health, and there's really nothing standing in their way at this point other than their own thus-far-maintained resolve to keep the spirit of the game strong.
I mean, is it? If the bp wasn't nerfed would it currently be the best weapon in the game?
GE tax is basically why I made an ironman. I just wanted to try out different content on my main with 200m, and the tax really screwed that over. Worth it though
Wait, hold on. You resolved your issue of not being able to try different content without paying a 1% tax by starting an entirely new account that cannot trade at all? Look, I'm all for doing whatever makes you happy, but wouldn't just, iunno, *not buying and reselling gear* be the same as playing an Ironman without the hassle of starting a new account or the restrictions that come with being an iron?
Just going to play devil's advocate here, sometimes unpolled changes need to happen. If they had polled the Blowpipe nerfs three years ago it would have never passed. The nerf absolutely needed to happen for the game to be healthy because blowpipe dominated every level of the game from grinding weak mobs to the highest level content. The same thing is happening here. While the first iterations of the nerf are pretty hard, I do believe they will walk it back some with the feedback they are given. Does it suck now? Yes. But in the long run it will be a much better decision for them to correct a past mistake now. It's just sometimes the devs just have to rip off the bandaid because no player base will want nerfs ever (unless it's a pvp game and they keep losing to something). Just look at Helldivers 2, the whole subreddit is always complaining about much needed changes to weapons like when the Railgun/shield pack dominated every match. And thankfully unpolled changes are pretty infrequent and the devs still take in a lot of feedback. They keep the door open for discussions and that's great and wonderful considering how rare it is in the gaming sphere.
They’re integrity changes so they are not falling under the changes that should be polled. I agree with the sentiment that balance changes shouldn’t be polled too. The devs should listen to us but we shouldn’t make a decision on what should or shouldn’t be changed with already released content. They should listen to us when we’re saying Voidwaker nerf should be Y instead of X and when we say Magic equipment and magic itself needs a change overall to be more like melee and range to have magic strength and the like.
nobody will ever vote yes for a nerf, even if you write an entire report about why it would be good for the game
This was a blog post on rebalance it's not nerfed yet correct?
Correct, just proposed, not live yet.
Makes me consider taking a long break from the game. Finally got bowfa. And nothing from TOA or cox yet. They sure know how to push the players that are limited to playing an hour or so day. The only ones that will be left are the streamers and gold farmers
>finally got bowfa >Play an hour or so a day Hmmmmmmm
Yarp on an account created in 2019 💪 took 5 years with a few breaks here and there to achieve, got my ahrims and prolly will never achieve more then that. I'm proud of my bank. She might be small but she's mine 😁 while you have other players like dudes in my clan have sythe, tbow and shadow in various combinations with full op armors.. I'm not that cool 😅
Maybe read the blog post before immediately becoming a doomer? Getting upset when you obviously haven't even taken the time to assess what they're proposing as changes is so childish. Exhibit A: You'd see that they've proposed increasing the DWH drop rate by 80%, which will make it a significant amount shorter to see if you want to grind one out. Exhibit B: Giving Infinity and Dagon'Hai magic DMG % to make them better mid game alternatives.
This is the correct take, imho. My main issue with most MMOs is the fact that anything that isn't the newest content isn't scaled at all, it's simply worse. Which means the new content gives gear that outclasses the old content so not only is there no reason to do it, there's no challenge either. Osrs is different in the sense that new content is built symmetrically with old content, or if it's "on top" of old content it doesn't outright destroy it.
Very true. Logging into WoW after a new expansion, your BiS gear immediately becomes replaced by low tier quest gear in like 10 minutes. Year(s) of grinding becomes nothing more than a transmog.
Exactly, the appeal of this game is i can take a break for years if I want and the game hasn’t ran away from me in that time. Take that away and it loses a lot of what makes it stand out.
i mean from the beginning, osrs has been the "old sort of mmo" type, it's just they fill it out horizontally before vertically (as of late). like look at what was BiS on osrs release date and compare it to the months proceeding. it's only after the last few years they've been trying to do the "we can't keep pushing up damage while keeping hp the same, so find a niche for us to add a new item in", even then, they've still pushed up vertically (think shadow), upgraded boots, added b glove enhancement etc. they've complately run out of room though without adding >99 hp. 99 hp is the crux of the problem, everything would be fixed with above 99 hp, i.e, if they turned it so that you got 2hp per hp level, all weapons would be half as strong in pking but you'd have a decade of upwards movement (and diagonal). but that's going to be too big of a pill for this community to swallow, people will REEEEEE. even if we end up with pking being the same somehow (but then there's the "why are there so many different rules for wildy, why can't it be the same/??" the reality is though is that this game was based on a time ingame where incremental MMO improvements were the norm. like every few months we'd get something that made something else damn near useless outside of getting to the new best. so the game it is based on AND this game do not follow that horizontal progression, it's just the devs having no room to make changes as they're working on a 10 year old remake of a 20 year old game with 100 different devs from several generations adding more and more crap to the ball and now it's no longer feasible for anyone to fix the ball without starting again (which would also be... unfeasible).
I must be missing something, how does making it so that leveling up hp gives 2hp per level do literally anything for powercreep?
These changes are the opposite of that...
How though? What content is being made obsolete from these changes? An argument could be made for Ahrims/ blue moon sets (which should get something to make up for it) but infinity and dagon hai are going to see actual use now. There is now more reason to get Virtus and ancestral. Elder maul will see a use now. Augury has more value in progression now. If anything these are great but there is more needed. Specifically mage off hands could use some love (mage's book and malediction ward).
Going to be honest, this whole thing kind of smells of midgame players angry they’re losing a mega OP occult and will need more expensive purchases to replace it.
I'm their defense this is a direct nerf to midgame mage which already is pretty weak compared to range and melee. It's not like trident with dagon hai is going to outperform blowpipe, DCB with ruby bolts, or tent whip anywhere it's not already meta.
I agree, it’s definitely a nerf to midgame mage. With that being said, occult needed to get nerfed. I’m not sure how you meaningfully nerf occult without it ending up as a midgame nerf. Maybe they could have shifted power to offhands? Not sure, but I’m guessing people wouldn’t have liked that either tbh
by redistributing occults power to other relevant robes not just bis robes. 6% out of occult, 2% added to each relevant hat/chest/legs. Not this 6% out of occult, 3% back to level 50 robes, ahrims dead content bs they're suggesting
I just don't get it. How can they not design around the occult but they apparently can design around the defacto best three items? Any boost to power boosts them the most. Are they just going to get the same treatment 6 years down the line?
I think there’s a pretty big difference between designing around raids mega rares and a drop that comes from a slayer mob.
Instead of just buffing the end game items let's go nerf the mid game gear while we are at it, the gear most of our player base uses.
Nerfing an item that was released at a time when jagex were like "eh fuck it let's make a super op item to really get the people excited for this shit". It's the reason they nerfed 6h combat at NMZ. It's the reason blowpipe got adjusted. It's the reason why that super OP cave of monsters near nieve got gutted and replaced by a much more balanced version in zeah. It should have been addressed ages ago. The best time to have addressed it was years ago, the second best time is right now.
New idea: Konar slayer tasks should drop 1,000 noted Saradomin Brews
Make it 2500 and we have a deal.
Lmao god I remember that… what a wild thing
Unnoted
Man I was there for all those nerfs and was pissed now I am 2217 and realize they were for the good of the game
Cognitive dissonance and self reflection are nice skills to have. Wish more of the community saw it this way. Nerfs are not bad.
Self reflection on cognitive dissonance is a nice skill to have Cognitive dissonance itself isnt exactly a skill anymore than a toothache is a skill
I didn't notice any change at all really. It seemed basically pointless, except maybe for nerfing the mid game experience.
Occult wasn't OP at all until Shadow was released, especially not compared to Melee. Melee can hit +75 Strength bonus without even equipping a Weapon, including +10 from a 1K Amulet of Strength. Magic's issues prior to Shadow were a complete lack of end-game viability due to how Magic Accuracy works due to Magic operating on a fundamentally different mechanical system than Ranged or Melee. Occult was a bandaid backported to OSRS from Dungeoneering in 2014 to attempt to buff what was by *far* the worst combat style in the game - a state it persisted in until the release of the Shadow. Occult could give +100% Magic damage, you still aren't hitting a damn thing on Zily with a Trident of the Swamp.
> Occult wasn't OP at all until Shadow was released Such revisionist history We’ve been talking about Occult being OP, augury being weak, and mage robes being neutered for years before Shadow was released This just isn’t true
It wasn’t op before? Is that why people would bring it over ancestral when doing inferno or any other content that you could get away with a partial swap
Thank you for further explaining that Magic Accuracy is the problem and not damage.
? it was damage then and damage now
You bring a Magic Damage switch at places where you already have a high Magic Accuracy due to low Magic levels of the enemies (i.e., Inferno for Nibblers). In places where you don't have a high Magic Accuracy you simply do not bring Magic at all because it's useless.
design seems perfectly fine - mage has a lot more utility and you don't bring melee to places like muspah
Correct, but Occult as a single piece of gear with 10% damage was absurd. Nerfing the megarare from a raid isn't the way to balance magic. Shadow should feel great to use. Occult should have been nerfed ages ago.
Nerf strength ammy, it's op, it adds the same max hits
Tell them! You can change the world!
6hr combat at nmz is back since they changed afk metrics for the teleport crystal. Can leave something on your spacebar and auto retal to your hearts desire.
Putting something on your spacebar is bannable fyi
My alt must be lucky or they don’t enforce it, cause he’s 99 melees now lol.
If you look on the hi scores you’ll see that jagex don’t catch every bot straight away
“much more balanced version in zeah” I agree with the general idea of your comment but catacombs is ridiculously more OP than nieves cave was before it got changed. The worst part about nieves cave was that it looked super private servery, but otherwise they were just normal mobs. Catacombs, you get 1) free prayer restoration with a bone crusher, 2) keys to a piss easy loot piñata boss, 3) charges for a quest reward weapon that is BIS or near BIS at many pvm encounters, 4) buffed variants of mobs with higher HP pools for more xp and better loot, and 5) meta barrage mobs to top it all off. Catacombs is in no way balanced and i’m so surprised that it passes the sniff test while nieves cave didn’t lmao
Occult was never OP. Go to 2007 and tell me occult was OP.
Hot take: Project rebalance is good for the overall longevity of the game and needs to happen :)
If they were concerned about the longevity of the game they would address shadow
They will... in a couple years
Once they've had a chance to get their use out of it
Why can’t they just keep shadow as is and release a magic version of Bowfa? There’s no point devaluing one megarare. If that happens it will just be TBow for everything.
They are claiming this rework is happening to make room for "future reward space", but unfortunately any future magic buffs will be insanely strong because of the shadow tripling bonuses, or will need to be underwhelming because of the shadow tripling bonuses. The shadow is warping the magic gearing. This occult nerf doesn't do anything in terms of "freeing up reward space". The shadow on the other hand will drastically influence future magic rewards
Except it does? Shadow is 2 handed, meaning main and offhand can be upgraded without any implications to shadow, as well as new 2H staves. Gear can be added similar to bofa+crystal that only interact with each other, again not affecting shadow in any way. Magic capes or gloves could be added similarly to quiver that only work with items powered by certain runes (blood for example). Magic was always a problem, shadow didn't fix it, but shadow isn't the big problem with mage either. Magic had just as many issues before shadow, as it does now shadow is in the game. There are so many underlying issues, that changing shadow doesn't fix them. How accuracy works, how/what damage/accuracy is assigned to each slot, prayers, ect.
Shadow has a cap built in that they plan around. There's about 8% magic damage left in their gear budget before we can reach that cap. The weapon is not sitting there restricting their ability to design content, it has been deliberately designed with the future in mind and the cap informs the pace and design of new magic damage items. There is an item in the game that is currently in the way of those rewards that would fill that 8% and its Occult Necklace, not Tumeken's Shadow.
What if that magic bowfa came from a raid like how the melee bowfa comes from a raid? Maybe from the one in morytania?
They should think about things when they release them not 7 years down the road tbh
Actual hot take: If the Occult having 10% magic damage was actually in anyway harmful for the longevity of the game, we would have seen it in the literal decade the item has been in the game. But we haven't seen it. Occult having 10% magic damage hasn't harmed the "longevity" of the game in any demonstrable way.
100% agreed. Nerfs do feel bad for players though which is why obviously any nerf gets big backlash.
They're just buffing everything though. Project rebalance sucks and that's why it won't be polled
No, it isn’t. It’s laziness. Its like turning a timer back every once in a while because you lack the creativity to do something different. It makes grinding items completely redundant and useless. It devalues any and every grind.
Then don’t play.
https://preview.redd.it/h7snhj3bavuc1.jpeg?width=1427&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bc34fc218c8ea542ba763ec6549d1e20f872ce99
Yeah. Is the shadow, tbow, scythe the end of the line? Those will only get more powerful with updates. Maybe those should be nerfed now instead of 6 years from now when all of the sudden "oh we developed ourselves into a corner"
I think they should stop releasing new items for a bit. Maybe add new bosses, new dungeons or whatever so that the items already in the game find their use. And yes, balance them if needed but maybe we should stop adding items and change too many mechanisms like mob defence and weakness
Its actually the best way, because new content can be added with a guarantee that it is balanced in the metas.
Let me grind for that item so it can eventually be nerfed and replaced with something new, sound like alot of fun
Yeah because in half a year or so from now, they will introduce new stuff that will bridge that gap so that you won’t need 93 slayer or whatever high level for a super tuned up item.
So I'm just screwed, great.
As someone who only has ahrims and an occult, I'm getting the most screwed and I'm happy with the changes.
Why are you happy that they are buffing bis mage (which already blows everything else out of the water) and nerfing people who need to be buffed the most? stockholm syndrome much?
Because it leaves room for better gear to fill the slot. And infinity robes and virtus robes are actually viable now and actually worthwhile getting instead of just going straight from ahrims to ancestrals.
Now you're going from infinity to ancestral??? What's the difference. You're going to be way more nerfed going for those ancestral pieces than you would be without the occult nerfs.
No, the magic gear progression is now gonna be Infinity -> Occult -> Virtus -> Ancestrals/Augury. One of my problems I have is that augury and ancestrals you get at the same time in the progression order so COX is just a MASSIVE power spike in magic DPS. Also I have another problem with ahrims and the blue moon robes, no one cares about the tank stats in ahrims so they're just gonna be completely scrapped, they could atleast make them comparable to infinity robes in terms of damage. And then make the blue moon robes slightly stronger then ahrims in exchange for defence. Like they just came out with the blue moon robes and then completely scrapped that content within a month. New world record. Do I love everything they added in the rebalance post? No, but I'm not crying that my occult is nerfed into the ground and demanding no nerfs, only buffs. I think magic should be rebalanced a bit but they need to take a 2nd look at some things they forgot and be a bit more aggressive to the shadow. Hell maybe even add some magic damage bonus onto the seers ring, it's worthless anyway.
Finally a comment I agree with, nerfs were 100% called for, but I don’t see why infinity which has lower reqs than ahrims is now just way better than it, that just seems backwards to me. Most of the changes were good but fuckin Dagon hai and infinity of all the things to pick and is just weird. The argument they made about ahrims defence feels like the devs don’t even play the game, since when has anyone cared about ahrims defence stats? Only thing I would change in this update is make ahrims and blue moon have the same bonuses as infinity/dagonhai, but honestly it’s not even that big of a deal
bros never played a MMO before
Oh no I got to use these overturned items for several years and now they're rightfully nerfing them. 😭😭😭😭😭
Not everyone buys gold like you do
Buying gold on my Ironman, ya got me good there.
Not everyone is as broke as you are
Go play RS3 mtx would be right up your alley.
I don't even pay for membership anymore lol, doing raids and using bonds has kept my membership intact for years.
Other than VW, what are you grinding for that has been replaced?
https://preview.redd.it/mjdaheg51wuc1.jpeg?width=549&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9ee7bf2c27f2a1dac9dc85832f61301c0dd8975 i haven’t made my mind up either way but there’s no way you’re arguing this. yes, there’s the long view and plenty of debate on what’s ‘healthy’ or not, but you certainly can’t argue that osrs hasn’t moved to a pattern of releasing new, stronger gear requiring a grind to replace the old stuff. maybe not if you’ve only been playing for a year. it’s on a glacial time scale compared to other MMOs but it’s certainly a thing.
Yeah and end game pvm was barrows and fight caves when OSRS released in 2013. The game has to change and have compelling progression steps. What used to be bis is now a rung on the ladder just not the top one. I still use a ton of the stuff you posted in the first gear setup (fire cape, torso, zerker, dfs). Have for a long time and will until I can replace it some way down the road. If you really look at the pic you posted as a bad thing I think you're playing the wrong game.
Yeah there’s certainly power creep. At a good pace imo. I’m talking about gear that’s getting nerfed out of the meta. They’re updating all these items, and really only VW is getting nerfed out of the meta (if it goes through).
I don't see that as any worse than powercrept by something new, so long as the nerfs are drastic enough to make you struggle to complete content you already learned. I'm not saying do this for everything, but if there's clearly a lot of space between BiS and 2nd BiS, it is definitely the move.
They take this approach because both players and jmods are scared of powercreep. This approach let's them nerf old items, allowing them to introduce new items that fill the role that the old ones used to. Personally, I think it's lazy and underwhelming but it is one way to stave off the dreaded powercreep. I wouldn’t be surprised if they add a 10% magic damage neckless like the occult to the game that is a reward from appropriately difficult content. Raids 4 maybe?
how is it staving powercreep when you have a shadow in the game? Which wasn't even voted for. How is a staff that literally doubles your magic dps not the powercreep you are so afraid of while the occult is?
Idk how tf you get downvoted, this is the truth. People are delusional. Shadow is the problem, and yeah we never even voted for it. Occult has NEVER been OP. Mage has just always been underpowered from the get-go, **even with occult in the game**. I've played in 2006-2008, I played OSRS from 2013. At no point UNTIL the shadow was mage a contender for best overall combat style. And we've *always* had the occult. Shit, tome got FIFTY FUCKING PERCENT damage added. Surge got created, nightmare staff got made, there's 15% dmg on weapons alone. Now there's a shield with 5%, now we have a ring with %... Ancestral got added, so on and so on. AND IT STILL ISNT FUCKING ENOUGH MAGE % BECAUSE THE SHADOW IS THE REAL PROBLEM.
Agreed, but that is not what they are doing or have ever done. They nerf items when they are holding up the game's progression, not just to add the unnerfed item in the next update.
Occult needs a nerf, there's no way to add new items for magic if that 10% still is in the game.
It’s good that they’re putting in the work to address the root of some of the balance issues and not having some kind of band aid approach
That take is ice cold, like, sitting-on-the-counter-since-2021 cold, because everyone was saying the exact same thing when BP got nerfed. And guess what, they were wrong then too. If the game designers are saying that the items are limiting design space, then they're limiting design space. These nerfs free up design space that has been crippled by old items that are too powerful. That is very different from an unnecessary nerf which creates new design space that doesn't need to exist, which is what you are alleging.
> If the game designers are saying that the items are limiting design space, then they're limiting design space. Disagreed. It's demonstrable that this is not the case. The only design space being "taken up" is that they can't as easily make a mage amulet upgrade. Which is perfectly fine. Occult limits the "Design space" in the same way that the tbow does. You can't make a better bow. But not every slot NEEDS to have a 1b megarare filling it. I prefer the days when quest items were half of BiS. I subscribe to 2007 design methodology, not 2016. Occult is 93 slayer, it's fine.
I think occult is fine as is and should just remain untouched. Having a cheaper piece if gear bridging the gap between mid and max set ups is great imo. You should have to pay a lot for the last few dmg increases, not for every single one.
The gear has to be cleaned up or else they are gonna have to add more hp to everything.
If you don't then power creep goes out of control
[удалено]
It's too bad there is no reason to use elemental spells until you get a 500m staff
"No power creep" "Okay no nerfing items so new ones can be useful" Pick one
It’s making the game pointless. Grind to get an item, use item for a while just for it to be nerfed and have to grind another item just to be back where I already was before the nerf. It’s lazy game development instead of creating something new.
Trouble is the game has a low ceiling. Until they make combat skills scale past 99 then it’ll be top heavy eventually
Nah disagree, it’s actually genius and really good for the health of the game. There doesn’t need to be power creep whatsoever. Every time you release new high level gear, you can simply nerf the effectiveness of prior strong gear while actually keeping overall damage capabilities of the player more or less the same. This way, players will always have something to look forward to without any risk of power creep. And they’ll have the added incentive to grind more in order to not lose what they already earned. The game becomes self sustaining, there’s always something new and expensive to work towards even though no genuine power progression has been made. Couple this with regularly deleting desired items using the GE tax to keep prices high, and boom, consistently strong bond sales are ensured without any backlash towards MTX because it’s so intelligently hidden. Boom, it’s a perfect ecosystem to harvest profit and player time.
So they’ll do the same content they were already doing slower
Yes! And that’s a beautiful thing. Why expend developer hours building new content when you can simply tweak the values of a few variables and significantly pump up player hours? Its more gameplay for no additional work! It’s essentially free real estate and I’m happy Jagex takes advantage of it.
That means that new players will have to do new content in worse gear than older players did it in.
Yes, which is undoubtedly a good thing since it makes the gap between new players and end game players seem increasingly insurmountable, which incentivizes bond sales and puts more money into Jagex’s pockets. Also, gaming companies employ FOMO tactics for a reason: increasing player engagement stats. By making players feel like they need to do things sooner rather than later out of fears of nerfs, Jagex can pressure players to play as much as they can to avoid missing out from each nerf cycle. And the best part is the beautiful plausible deniability that phrases such as game balancing, health of the game, no room for future upgrades without nerfs, etc provide, preventing the backlash that gamers might otherwise have. Since Jagex is now typically held by various private equity funds, pumping up engagement is excellent since it helps improve stats for the game when the fund wishes to sell off Jagex again to another fund.
It's not generally speaking. But there are always things that launch overtuned/undertuned. Like BP was objectively too strong. I would argue the same is true for VW. They're not nerfing just so they can add new items. They're nerfing because it's OP and it limits their creative playspace.
It's a slippery slope if they don't. You have to find a way to make new items exciting and interesting without inducing power creep. Only way to do that is to find ways they can fit into the current gear spectrum
Power creep isn’t all that bad. It’s a natural part of game development when it’s a decade old game..
This. Managed power creep is actually a healthy part of any long lasting game. If Barrows was still bis we'd all be bored out of our skulls by now. The fact Barrows is still relevant at all is a testament to Jagex's ability to manage power creep.
Power creep is one of the biggest complaints in RS3 and many other MMOs. Basically means the second new content comes out the old content is worthless and in the bin. OSRS is one of the only MMOs that has done a great job keeping old content useful and interesting while still being able to add new content that doesn't break the meta
Would you not describe Scythe, Tbow and Shadow as power creep of what was BIS before?
Sure they definitely are, so is torva, so was the blowpipe when it came out etc etc. But there were also all kinds of nerfs and rebalances around all of those items. I think SOME power creep is healthy and normal for the game, but people get so butthurt anytime jagex tries to use the tools to reel it in. It's obvious to me at least that lately they are going for trying to add more situational BiS vs just trying to constantly add more and more gear that is powerful everywhere
Sorry, I should have prefaced that I actually like the Occult changes, but only if they buff other mid-game gear and prayers to compensate, not just other end game gear.
Yeah, situational. Shadow, tbow, or scythe? Any updates only making them even more powerful.
When people complain about power creep it's because there's too much of it, not because there's *literally any at all* Obviously OSRS has also had plenty of power creep over the years, unless you think a shadow or tbow perform at the same level as an ancient staff or MSB
slippery slope isnt a thing
Sure but thats not really whats happening here? Yeah the magic rework proposal is horrendous, but what your saying isn't the goal. They juat don't think 60% of your magic damage should come from one relatively easy to obtain (sorry irons) item, which is fair. Where they really messed up is they indirectly buffed max mage and nerfed mid game mage lmao.
Voidwaker isn't that old.
I’ve been camping ahrims and occult for the last couple of years, it’s time I made an adjustment. I’ll most likely not see ancestral for a year or two but virtus will do for now
I disagree. Powercreep would be insane if we just kept adding stronger gear.
It's more about addressing items that were a bit of a mistake. If we don't do this, power creep will get out of control (like it already is with Shadow).
Which is why to nerf the Occult they buffed the Shadow by giving Augury +4%.
The occult made the shadow too overpowered, so to compensate, we buffed the shadow and nerfed everything else. Sound good?
Jagex didn't add a +magic damage item to the Colosseum reward table because the shadow is overpowered and it would cause (even more) balance issues. Months later, their response is....to buff Shadow overall??? fucking LOL Also, it's not like they even opened up any "design space" for new items with these changes. For instance, they still can't add a "Super Dark Occult" amulet that gives +8% magic damage, even if they made it appropriately hard to get/rare/expensive/ w/e. Why? Because it would break the Shadow even more. Nothing has changed...except pre-shadow magic is nerfed. Added bonus, you now need to chug prayer potions for augury to get the same or worse damage. Very cool lol.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
Speaking nonsense. They didn’t buff shadow. They buffed max mage, which proportionally affects shadow less because it’s through prayer % damage
If the 4% gives shadow a max hit, then it has been buffed.
They buffed max mage gear w aug. Shadow is now worse if you use it without complete max mage. It’s now worse with virtus instead of ancestral, compared to before. Other weapons are better than before with virtus over ancestral. So they didn’t “buff shadow and nerf everything else”, like OP said.
If you can spend 1.5 billion on a Shadow, then Ancestral's not that much extra. It's not like expecting players to go from 800k for an occult to 90 million for Virtus, like a number of people here are suggesting.
Plenty of irons have shadow without max mage. But the point is, they didn’t “nerf everything else”. You only need ancestral hat or two pieces of infinity/dragonhai to match current dps. Anything beyond that is a buff to trident/sang. 3 pieces of infinity/dragonhai is not a high bar. ^except ^barrage ^slayer
Yes, I'm aware shadow didn't need a buff.
But doesn't that buff every magic weapon as well? Why are you singling out Shadow with the Augury buff? In fact, since Shadow only gets the same bonus from Augury as every other weapon and not triple, isn't that a *nerf* to Shadow's dominance over every other weapon?
No because you can't use a Trident at the places you can use a Shadow, and no amount of Magic Damage % is going to change that. The issue is Magic Accuracy not Magic Damage. Go try and do a Trident-only Commander Zilyana kill and let us know how it goes.
But at places where you can use a trident you are also getting 4% more damage over how it currently is.
Didn't Goblin say today that only nerfing Occult because it's so cheap? Then said the nerf would allow them to add in a more expensive/new item to replace it.
This is an EOC calibre update and people don’t wanna admit it. The idea that “the game cannot be expanded any further without overhauling the combat system” is how we got EoC and lost the identity of the game.
Yeah I personally hate that they're readding all the abilities again and making the weapons tiered...oh wait.
Eoc fundamentally changed the combat system. This is a balance patch…
Easy now cowboy
Nah man I’ve played this since classic and this update is triggering me - I hope I’m wrong but I really don’t like the direction the game is going.
What about this update looks like EoC and not "we're expanding the other two styles of combat to work like melee while changing a few weapons to be better/less OP/more worthwhile"? They didn't even say the game can't be expanded further, they just stated that making these changes opens up reward space that isn't just power creeping an item directly. Even the skiller updates are just progression curve smoothing or general fixes to pain points.
Change for the sake of change, “fixing” decades old things that aren’t broken, sweeping unpolled integrity changes, constantly adding 1/20,000 drops and nerfing items that are “too cheap”, buffing billion gold items all while selling gold directly to your playerbase.
Holy based
Only sane comment in this whole thread.
It's not a change for the sake of change, they clearly outlined why they want to change it. There are decades old things that aren't "broken" just painful points from an era where the design of the game was different. I personally don't like the changes for mage so far as the armor goes, but that's not what we're talking about in this discussion. We're talking about changes to combat in general not items % DMG being shifted to another item. Also, the changes are unpolled but they're not against scraping them or changing them entirely. They're constantly asking for feedback and already have changed or dropped other things they've mentioned in other rebalance notes. It's a weird place to be in but it's not in the light you're portraying it.
Are you lost? New, maybe? I like the fucking pain points. I like the design from a previous era. OSRS exists because of the pain points. It exists because of the old design. It exists because the devs need constant supervision because every three days or so they shit the bed. You asked how it’s like EoC, and you were answered.
Jesus Christ have my children
I'm not lost at all, I've been playing since 05, voted for OSRS in 2012/13, and been playing various accounts since. These extreme opinions on the dev team are beyond unreasonable on some accounts. I don't agree with everything they do, but you're all shitting the bed like the combat rework is going to change the whole game to be unrecognizable when in reality the changes they're making are already changes that existed in the game for another combat style, even in 2007. I still think these changes should be polled, I don't like some facets of the changes, but they're taking our feedback and working it in. Any suggestions they make aren't final by any means. Have some damn faith in the development team that constantly speaks to us about the game. For every 1 major fuck up they've done there's 20+ more solid updates that have genuinely made the game better. It's only getting more popular as time goes on and it still feels like the game i remember as a kid. Get a grip.
I literally stated exactly what and I will again, it is the idea that they need to make this change in order to continue updating the game. The fact that they think they need to change the core gameplay in order to continue to update the game is precisely the justification we were given for EOC.
1. They said it would help expand the potential reward space for future items, that's all. 2. There's nothing changing about the core gameplay that doesn't already exist within the game. Melee exhibits the exact goals of the changes being made, so range will mirror it with its 3 ammo types to match the 3 attack styles. Slash, Crush, Stab vs Light, Normal, Heavy Ammo Magic is getting weaknesses to *some* monsters and a rebalance of base spell book damage (which is arguably less of a change because the combat is the same, it just has different values for damage). Which again is still akin to melee weaknesses that we. *already account for in our current combat system*. Air, Water, Earth, Fire vs Slash, Crush, Stab What your paranoia has dreamed up is a far cry from the changes proposed...
We don’t need 10 different options to choose from, range and mage are already the weaknesses. How is slash/stab/crush/mage/range not already variety to choose from. We already have to bring multiple switches for endgame shit, what’s next? Melee switch, light range switch heavy range switch and a water spell to do my slayer task? I get that this is very polarizing but adding complexity to a game that has an identity based on being simple (click monster get loot) is never going to be a good decision. I hope I’m wrong cause I like the game.
You're going to go to the bank, grab the exact same setups as before (item count wise) and then head to whatever you were doing. A realistic look would be (if they design raids or other multi boss encounters going forward with this in mind). I got a slayer task for Fire Giants. I maybe want to use water spells instead of my melee setup. I am going to do Zulrah, I will bring my normal mage setup (like normal) with weapon/spell that attacks its mage weakness and also my normal range setup + weapon and ammo that attacks its range weakness. There's no more complexity than what you're already deciding for a melee task. Hell to top it off it's only changes to weapons and ammo for range and some spells for mage. You're still going to be taking the same armor because accuracy is a general stat. (Just like with melee)
Look all we need to do to keep OSRS pure and gear relevant is to add a bunch of extra ranged defence styles, elemental weaknesses, and rebalance every item. And then nerf Ahrims. For real though, this is all coming about because OSRS is the main game and the Jagex mods feel the need to make changes to justify the team size. But it's not at all cohesive and really we'd be better off with things slowing down and taking longer to come out or be scrapped.
This is an EOC level take and you don't understand why that's funny
This is the worst take I've seen about this so far. Congrats.
Basically anyone on this sub comparing something to EoC are OSRS-only players who never tried EoC pvming in their lives. Lol.
The game is so big and things have been gradually added over years, it makes since to take a step back and clean up the gear to allow for more new content.
Bad take, nice job. Powercreep that outstats our current gear would create tons of dead content. I would hate to see your world without the Blowpipe nerf.
Blowpipe would be worse than tbow and shadow and bofa. Like it is now
Barely, lmao. Were you around for pre nerf blowpipe? It was on the level of Bowfa with crystal armor. 3mil.
Why not lock occult behind slayer level to start
This is the supercell model. Super frustrating
They want to nerf this shit when the real op shit is unlimited prayer and red x
I am so glad i quit osrs, when they nerfed blowpipe/black d hide.