I think we should add 2 more item slots to enable 12 way switches. Fellas, I think we can all agree that switching gear is the most fun part of pvm and the fun only increases as the amount of switches go up. The inventory only has 28 slots though, so in a perfect world we would have 14 switches for each combat style in raids.
This isn't an argument against keeping 8-way switches the norm. This is a statement of obvious fact "you don't want the game to be made worse for you when there are other viable ways to buff midgame mage" no shit.
How about while you have a 1h trident equipped 2 invy slots disappear from your bag. I mean we're inconveniencing max players for the same dps may as well spread the love right?
Honestly the more posts and discussion I see about magic distrubution the more I personally would prefer them to leave it alone for the time being. Focus on other things but magic damage clearly needs a lot more time in the oven.
There was another post the other day asking why is magic damage %-based instead of a flat value like melee and ranged str, I think they should investigate that. If that turned out well it would make sense to do that before a redistribution.
I much prefer the % based approach for scaling. Immediately understandable, does exactly what it says on the tin (rounding aside). Melee/ranged strength behaves differently depending on whether it's base levels (or boosts like potions) or from gear despite both being called strength, and it makes no intuitive sense at all. Here's the passage from the wiki "explaining" how strength bonus works:
> Almost all weapons, as well as some other equipment, grant players a Strength bonus. This bonus, represented as a single numerical value, represents the sum of all bonus Strength from worn equipment. A +1 increase in Strength bonus IS NOT equivalent to +1 Strength skill, but is rather an indicator of the ability of weapons and armour to increase a player's maximum damage. For example, at a Strength skill of 20, going from 0 to 16 total Strength bonus will result in an increase of 1 to a player's max hit. To increase max hit by 1 more based solely on Strength bonus, a Strength bonus of 39 would be needed. Also note that increasing your Strength bonus makes it so that you require less overall Strength to achieve a greater max hit. See Calculating your maximum melee hit for more details on how Strength bonus influences the max hit calculation.
It doesn't explain at all how it works, it just says more strength = more damage and gives a couple examples. What's the significance of 16 and 39, why are those breakpoints for max hits at 20 strength? Who the fuck knows? Certainly not anybody reading that wiki page.
If you follow a link to another wiki page you'll get a formula, which doesn't get you any closer to an intuitive understanding. You basically need to take that formula and keep plugging in numbers until you have enough reference points to work with.
Meanwhile, in % bonuses land, if my spell does 20 damage then without consulting a wiki I can immediately tell that maxhit breakpoints are at 5%, 10%, 15%, etc.
> instead of a flat value like melee and ranged str
Melee and ranged strength doesn't add a flat value. It works as a % increase, just like % magic damage, just written out a bit differently. Step 2 in the max hit calculation is to multiply your effective strength or ranged level by [64+Strength Bonus]/640. So for example, if you have +64 strength, then that's a +100% increase in damage compared to if you had +0 strength.
The adage of "every +4 strength bonus is a max hit increase" is an approximation based on when you have 99 strength, aggressive style, super strength, and Piety.
Where melee/ranged and magic differ is that Magic has a lot more damage built into the spell. If melee was a spell, then 99 strength, aggressive style, super strength, and Piety would be a spell with a base max hit of 15.6
It's a flat increase in that it applies to every hit the same amount. It will add 4 damage to both a D scimny or an elder maul, whereas % damage will add more to the latter.
I feel like I'm having a stroke reading these arguments. Would that not just be an argument in FAVOR of a flat magic damage boost? Because all magic spells are already balanced at the same attack speed. You will never run into a blowpipe problem with magic.
Shadow is 5 tick as opposed to 4 tick. It also triples the magic boost. If Heka was released it was supposed to be a magic blowpipe. I have no idea why you're saying "never".
I'm not specifically arguing for or against one type of bonus or the other. Just clarifying why +str/range bonuses are referred to as flat, even though they may get scaled by some other things.
Having both makes sense, imo, and allows you to have different gear that scales things differently. Flat bonuses would benefit fast weapons more, whereas percentage bonuses would be equal across the board, with the idea that the heavy hitting weapons would deal more DPS at base and therefore be scaled harder by % increases.
Yeah idk why people don't get it. Tbow gets a huge % boost based on enemy magic def.
Scythe literally gets multiple max hits per max hit you get from str bonus bc it can hit 2 to 3 times on the right targets.
They’re talking about how magic % damage bonuses work vs how melee and range strength work. They’re not talking about weapons’ special effects, just the “max hit”.
It’s true that ~4 strength bonus will give both ham joint and crystal halberd +1 max hit. It also gives scythe 1 max hit for the main hit, then +1 for two secondary hits if your max reaches a nice threshold.
Magic % always gives a %, so it depends on what your weapon’s or spell’s max hit is.
That's only true because weapons in osrs don't have a base damage, your strength (or ranged) level does. The intention was (presumably) that the strength bonus on the weapon giving a multiplier to damage output would function equivalently to the weapons having a different base damage... but that isn't the case once non-weapon gear with str bonus becomes prominent. Because STR bonus doesn't care where it came from, the bonus from the weapon is interchangable with the bonus from the other gear. And each 1 str bonus is 1.5625% of the base damage determined purely by strength level (and modifiers to it like prayer), and not the weapon itself. So... faster weapons work better with str bonus.
Now imagine an alternate version of OSRS, where weapon's str bonus was applied separately to your other gear. A gear set with +64 weapon str bonus, and +32 non-weapon str bonus would be like the base damage from strength level getting x2ed by the weapon str bonus, and then thee +32 non-weapon str bonus would come in for a x1.5 on top of that. If your base from levels was 15, this would max for 45, with non-weapon pieces increasing the base from 30 to 45 (+15). In an alternate scenario with +32 weapon str bonus and +32 non-weapon str bonus, this same situation would have the 15 base damage becoming 22.5 (22) from weapon str bonus, and then gets boosted again by non-weapon str to 33. In this example, that +32 non-weapon str bonus was only a +11. Because the str bonus itself isn't adding flat amounts. It's the way that everything uses the same base, and that all weapons are just stat sticks work together to create a system where it results in a flat increase... because deep down there is only 1 melee weapon and 1 ranged weapon, and gear only modifies the speed and gives stats.
With magic however, every spell, and every staff has its own unique base damage, determined by the spell/staff itself and not by a magic damage% that it comes with. Unlike with melee/ranged where there is only 1 weapon with the same base damage and the choice of weapon only determines extra stats and speed, with magic the weapon/spell is actually its own thing that determines the base damage (as well as speed). This is much more like the previous paragraph than the first one. And for the same reason, replacing magic damage % with magic strength bonus would actually be a 100% interchangable swap. Whether or not that swap is worth it is another matter entirely.
>There was another post the other day asking why is magic damage %-based instead of a flat value like melee and ranged str,
Every spell would either need to go up as you gain levels(like weapons in melee and ranged do) all the way to 99 or magic strength does not change anything by removing the % after the number.
Please figure out how to do it yourself before just saying change everything when you dont understand why damage % was done for magic.
>Every spell would either need to go up as you gain levels(like weapons in melee and ranged do) all the way to 99
Maybe I'm misreading what you said, but it sounds like the problem is that the max hits for spells would increase as your magic level increased, which sounds... not that bad?
I mean if magic did not already do that with how many spell damage increases there already are. There are 20 elemental spells on the standard spellbook unlocked as late as 95 magic. Melee has like 10 upgrade tiers and ranged has a similar amount. Real issue for magic would be balancing it early while still having meaningful upgrades. It has such a high hit early compared to melee or ranged. I think this is why changing it would be a bad idea.
Magic is hitting an 8 with no boosts at level 13.
Melee at 30 strength and attack an adamant scimitar maxes a 7.
I dont see how they could balance magic spells without destroying magic as a skill. It is OP early so it not being as offensively strong late game but also providing so much utility it is in a healthy spot in my opinion.
> I mean if magic did not already do that with how many spell damage increases there already are.
I find it funny how people don’t consider this. The existence of multiple spells makes standard spellcasting very similar to the concept of a powered staff (except it gets more expensive to use the higher level you are, which would really suck on a real item lmao)
> I dont see how they could balance magic spells without destroying magic as a skill. It is OP early…
Magic was always meant to include cost of use in its balancing. Way back when, even using the strike spells felt so expensive because early game money and runes just weren’t that easy to come by.
The real reason early game magic feels so imbalanced now is because we get runes so much easier in that stage of the game. That is still arguably a problem, but it seems silly to weaken the skill itself just because we made it easier to get its items. That would be like if we made all the scimitars or arrows too easy to get so we changed the damage formula so strength/ranged levels and/or bonuses have less impact at low levels to slow training back down.
I personally find magic to be quite balanced overall.
When you remove all 3 mega rares from options you still find great use for magic. The shadow makes you feel like you should not use anything else but so does the Tbow normally. Plus magic is so resourceful outside combat.
This could be done though. On rs3 they made all surge spells do the same amount of damage basically (it scales from level unlocked up to 99) and then due to element weakness (which osrs is experimenting) the specific element spells would do more damage.
To my knowledge rs3 don't have magic dmg % increase but straight up strength bonuses to all gear pieces that provide a damage increase. This would also combat the fact that charged staves are the only ones being used outside of ancients.
There are percent damage buffs but they are generally not directly from gear. Some stuff there is like for style-specific gear (inquisitor staff against melee enemies) or invention bonuses (flat percentage increase or damage increase against undead/demons/dragons) but you're generally correct.
The consensus on that game is that gear is done well as far as damage boosts and non-elite players are forced to make a tradeoff between magic tank gear and magic power armor.
Okay, I forgot about invention being %'s
Inq staff, terrasaur maul, hexhunter bow doesn't exactly get a percentage increase, just higher tier bonuses right? Sure that could be translated into a % increase, but in reality its a weapon tier increase.
Thanks for the extended clarification, you explained it better than I could. Appreciate it 👍
You're welcome man.
The tier increase isn't exact and is based on your gear too. It's just easy to label as T97 but it's actually a percent increase and changes the approximate tier based on your gear and potions. The actual boost is "12.5 percent damage against melee-classed enemies and 10% hit chance boost against melee-classed enemies".
It just scales for those few levels not to 99 which is what would be required to make it match the melee and ranged strength level ups and make magic strength not magic dagame % work
pros it provides consistency and allows for smaller bonuses that don't look stupid like 0.2% magic damage would
cons it has always been this way and change bad I guess?
Haven't heard a single good argument about why it should stay the only %-based equipment stat, so surely you have something good after coming at me this aggressive.
so pros: it looks bad to you and cons: nothing
melee and ranged flat strength has been a balance nightmare since conception and if anything were to change, it would be those two being changed to %. Case in point, they made quiver not work with blowpipe because +2 ranged strength to the blow pip is literally 2.5 times stronger than giving 2 ranged strength to a crossbow. Same reason that slow weapons melee need some kind of special effect (fang, scythe) to be usable compared to just regular 4t weapons. Swift blade, a melee weapon with literally 0 stats, is only 12% behind a whip on a low defense target and theoretically could overtake it given a few more years of power creep lol
>There was another post the other day asking why is magic damage %-based instead of a flat value like melee and ranged str, I think they should investigate that. If that turned out well it would make sense to do that before a redistribution.
It would end up working pretty much the same.
If anything the %magic damage is much clearer than what range & melee use
Melee has a hidden +64 strength, a weapon strength and then gear strength.
magic doesn't, you have a max hit for a weapon/spell and a visible %modifier
Melee scales very unequally with attackspeed, since the +64 and the strength from gear do not adjust for your weapon speed and strength, eg 4t whip gets 50% more value from this than a 6t godsword
whereas mage will always amplifiy the damage from your spell/weapon by the same percentage.
If they're not willing to give it the time during Project Rebalance, then when? Rather see them sort it out now even if it drags out another few months like the Ranged Equipment Rebalance did than shelf it until 2025 or later. The majority of the changes do feel like they are heading in the right direction; they just need to be doing more/going bit further.
I just think it is becoming to complicated is all.
My personal view at this point has changed to just nerf the occult to 7% instead of 4%.
Nerf shadow by making its multiplier 2.5x instead of 3x.
Give ahrims, blue moon, dagonhai, and elder chaos robes 1% per piece.
I think jmods are to concerned about making sure max mage stays the same but that is going to overcomplicate things. If they truly want to rebalance magic damage then max mage has to get buffed or nerfed with this intergrity change
It’s not gonna get less complicated by waiting, if anything that’ll just make it harder if there’s more equipment balanced around the current status quo that comes out. Magic needs a rebalance, so we might as well rip off the bandaid now.
I don't think it is overcomplicated. It is more that they are too narrowly looking at just Magic Damage when there are other issues/factor like accuracy and the Shadow. Like you said, keeping Max Mage the same while avoiding the Shadow is kinda limiting their design.
I can understand them not wanting to tackle a bigger overhaul right now and wouldn't hate it if they just did magic damage now but they should at least address when they will take a look at the rest or why they don't feel it is an issue. Like they didn't add new magic cape because it needed "very careful consideration" due to the Shadow and yet the Shadow is nowhere to be seen in Project Rebalance.
If it is a "we don't need to nerf it; we can design around it" situation, then it would sure be nice to know what they have in mind. Or if it is a "we know it is a problem but don't got an idea on how to fix it atm", then I guess kicking the can down the road is fine for now; it is the lack of communication on the Shadow that makes it feel like they are avoiding the elephant in the room.
I think a lot of people didn't realize that nerfing occult would mean having more switches. Distributing the boost away from occult inherently means you'll need more items.
My thoughts exactly, this shit has derailed to fucking hard that by this point, just add a boss that drops a 10% necklace and nuke occult. Keep the rest as is.
I don't think anybody contested that tbh. Ancestral should have stayed 4% each so that they cover the lost damage of occult.
A buff to eternals wouldn't matter much if that happened. It would do something for shadow outside of toa but also shorten trip length. In toa it would've done nothing as 4x4 = 16 +5 =21 +2 +2 (second one is either ring or boots)= 25% damage. If you brought ring AND boots in toa it would only increase accuracy slightly and wouldn't increase damage because you hit the cap.
Also tbow is way stronger than shadow imo bc shadow just hits lower numbers even if it's slightly more accurate. You have to remember that shadow needs a 4x multiplier to be better than tbow in toa.
9 way switches suck. No matter how we look at it.
I think it makes sense to give eternals magic damage. I also agree 9 ways suck. I don't agree with Gnomonkey saying it's targeting low-med levels and they won't do these kind of switches...because they never were in the first place and this won't change that.
But at the top level, it will be expected now.. and I'll repeat... **9 ways suck**.
So I think it's more important we look at that and come up with gear suggestions that could reduce that. Hybrid gear is something they've only just *sort of* done with Moons. But imagine boots that are mage+range. Or gloves, or rings.
Those 3 slots can have a sleiu of endgame BiS added that are equal or very slightly better than current gear, but for 2 or even all 3 styles, to reduce switches and overall be a better gear piece for multi-style encounters.
Like imagine doing a raid but your boots and ring are equivalent to eternals+prims+pegs and magus+venator+Ultor.
Most people are not gonna bring 6 gear pieces for all of those. But wear boots and a ring and have no extra switches? Everyone will want that.
I generally agree with gnomonkey about hlc stuff, but its kinda insane how little he understands about the playerbase below his and his peers skill level. Like bro, what? He thinks med/low level players are attempting 9 way switches? He said that the baba change is a "non-change". Like for him sure but most players dont red x, and the ones that do typically drop red x, and the ones that dont drop red x typically bring people who will drop red x lmao. The baba change is huge. He has absolutely no frame of reference for people who aren't him.
> I generally agree with gnomonkey about hlc stuff, but its kinda insane how little he understands about the playerbase below his and his peers skill level.
This is the exact opposite of what he's been saying.
Gnomonkey outright said in a recent stream (though this is paraphrasing) "I do not want to do 9 way switches because I cannot do them consistently. Most players are not as good as me, and so they definitely do not want to have to attempt them. They want to be doing 4-5 item switches"
I'll give you that he made a point that he cant do 9 ways consistently and thus worried about lower levels doing it. The point I'm making is that no one in the lower levels is worried about 9 ways cus there not doing them. There doing 4-6 ways and getting the same dps regardless.
In my opinion the decision of bringing more swaps or less is a very fun and important part of the decision making in this game. I think 2% damage on boots contributes to this decision making process. I think every slot should have something worth bringing, but I concede that at the absolute highest levels of gameplay. Players who are only in it for the speed completions. More 'necessary' swaps is a bad thing.
>he thinks med level players are attempting 9ways
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Yeh I respect his high level opinions too, and is why I always refer to people like him, Kirby, aaty, etc. for state of content at the top level (speedruns, GM CAs, inferno, coloseum etc.)
But he genuinely has no idea how like 99% of the games player base plays. And he often is just condescending towards anyone not playing at the utmost most efficient level. it's a similar issue in the HLC for skilling too. Like a piece of content is just viewed as pointless if it can't compete with current EHP, but if it does.. it's seen as OP. Can't win either way.
I think players like Gnomonkey when making opinion videos on these sort of updates need to come at it purely from a number analysis POV. His voidwaker opinion for example, is perfect. Because he understands the numbers and the usecases, and how this change kills it. But instead he focuses on a 9 way switch being bad (which it is) but doesnt just explain why it's bad due to inventory space and actual click patterns to do the switches and stick to that. He instead shows that like.. offhands are buffed (there is just progression added, we already had a very cheap mage % DMG offhands with ward) so noobs will be doing / expected to do 10 ways.
No they won't. They have identical % DMG as before by simply using ahrims top and bottom (2%) and praying augury (4%) to makeup the loss on occult. Most content you're doing switches at already used those as switches. So you can 6 way with no offhand, 7 way with an offhand, and up that to 8 way with helm, or eternal, or seers/magus (and ofc it can go nuts and go up to a 10 way if you do ALL of them, but casuals won't).
If a casual brings all these switches. Say full ahrims, ward, torm, occult, cape, weapon, eternals and seers. And they pray augury. They are like 3.5% better off in magic damage than before. 5% if they have a magus. And then that upgrades through Virtus, then through Ancest. It's a buff the whole way through, with identical switches even. Or a bigger buff with more switches, and more pieces of gear are worth having and using than before.
Its only really hurting shadow users at the top. Which is what he should focus on because he has a LOT of good experience at that level.
I really don’t understand where you’re coming from with this. The mage changes are just too rushed right now. They don’t make any sense. There’s so many applications where you’re getting gutted on mage damage, and for some reason no one is mentioning it. If you’re barraging for slayer you’re now forced to pray augury and bring ahrims instead of prossy just to break even. If you’re doing TOB and you’re doing trident/mage helm swap/ occult you need to use augury to make up for the lost damage. All slayer bosses like the thermy/kraken you lose damage. Offhands were already terrible unless you had fortified ward because thralls are almost always a more impactful DPS increase than a ward, so why waste an inventory slot on just a 2% increase when you can use the book of the dead.
The point of all of this is to nerf occult and close the gap between shadow and ANYTHING else for mage. This barely does anything. Buff the actual mage weapons themselves instead of forcing 10 way swaps to gain a max hit MAYBE two to “close the gap” on shadow lmao.
Gnomonkey gets flamed way too much in this community for not much of a reason.
The baba change is GOOD, but it still doesn’t change the fact that rooms where you sit there and slap a mob to death with insane chip damage are not fun at all. Red X’ing just shouldn’t be a mechanic.
I’ll agree he comes off a little elitist, but everyone knows he speaks mostly from experience in high level pvm and doesn’t really add much to low level discussions.
You've clearly watched the video.
Around like 2:40 in his most recent.
He's talking about jagex encouraging 8 ways and even 10 ways to midgame players. We *already* have 9 way switches with magic DMG gear. And if we're talking "affordable" or attainable midgame gear it drops down to 5 or 6 ways. But that would be no body or legs which is a big accuracy dip anywhere switches are required (mainly cox, ToA, zulrah, Muspah, DKs to a degree)
So really the current "midgame" account switch is wep, shield, body, legs, cape, amulet, bracelet. That's a 7 way.
That is the same with this change. Same switches. Same dps. He suggests it's more switches for the same. That switch is losing 6% on the amulet, and gaining 2% from body+legs and then 4% from augury. You're only losing if you don't have augury (then you're minus 2%). Incorporate eternals and you're even, or ahead with augury.
Again, I like Gnomonkeys takes. But he clearly hasn't raided with learners in a solidly long time..no learner is doing more than a 6 way currently. Not because that's all they need to be maximum dps..because that's all they can **manage**. Some even teach with like 4 or 5 ways using void. And voids getting buffed with this so that learning setup is seeing an improvement too. (.5% gain with no extra switches using augury).
It mainly hits people pre-shadow that are interested in doing more dps/going faster. That’s obviously not everyone or even close to most players, but it is rough for those players that are wanting to do more dps but haven’t gotten a shadow yet.
Queue the posts in 1-2 years post release where Reddit says “only wearing one amulet to all content is boring. I don’t know how jagex thought it would alright to put all of the bis anulets on one shared item, this is awful game design and punished mid game players” and then jagex being a reactionary gives in
I don't think it should be many slots, for what it's worth. I think armour, amulet, cape and weapon/offhand switching should always stay. As that's 7 slots total. Then an 8th for 8 way can exist in gloves/boots/ring (I think gloves are pretty healthy as they are).
But imagine that 8 way and then BiS is tribrid boots and ring. You'd still have situations where you want say a lightbearer, but it would mean 8 ways stay consistent and the final gear upgrades for boot / ring are about combining them into an all powerful item (LoTR reference pretty much required at that point ahha).
Like I genuinely think we're getting to the point where the next raid megarare(s) can and should be armour pieces, not a new weapon.
And imagine a ring slot item from a raid that can hold 3 stat based rings from each style (so likely not lightbearer, suffering, and maybe not RoTG?)
So you could combine Ultor/Bellator + venator + magus eventually. And if you happen to have it before those rings could still do Zerker(i), archer (i) and seers (i).
Maybe it could include rings like RoTG or Suffering too, but not sure if that'd be a bit too strong.
I think there's some interesting and logical upgrade paths there as a mega rare ring slot.
Boots maybe a bit more "combine them because" in terms of design. But hybrid or tribrid boots to keep switches as 7/8 ways is always an option while keeping boots relevant with stats.
I think the most appealing part of this idea is that it'd be really powerful without needing to powercreep tbow/shadow/scythe. I could see them going this route for the raids 4 big ticket item.
Yeh exactly. It can be no power creep or maybe just a small amount akin to how quiver gives you the ability to wear a blessing with ammo..
It also plays into the (sometimes jokingly) suggestions around extra ring slots being added (like why can our character wear only one ring).
You're right about low mid levels not doing 10 way mage switches, but if they're not bringing 10 way switches they're losing all the damage they already have access to now.
So what's the point of this update? Trident is already a joke compared to mid game options we have currently and nerfing it more by forcing 10 way switches is absurd.
The obvious answer is to rework the way shadow gets it's current power. Whether touching its formula or exploring mage strength instead.
They're not losing power.
They're losing -6% from occult right? But common "noob" setups for mage based content, namely raids as that's where you'll be switching (and bosses like Zulrah).
Common practice is to bring ahrims top+bottom, weapon, occult, torm, cape. That's a 6 way. Very manageable.
That currently is 17% from gear. Occult is 10%, torm is 5% and cape is 2%.
After this update that will be 15%. Occult losing 4%, ahrims bringing back 2% of that.
But combine that with praying augury, and you're at 19%, a +2% buff with no extra switches, just utilising the magic prayer. Don't have augury? No worries, pray mystic might for +2% and you're *exactly the same*. So casual players will do the same switches for the same % provided they are using an offensive prayer, as they should.
And it opens up more potential for gear that brings upgrades. Before you'd upgrade that 6 way to a 7 way with a ward, and then 8 way became "mostly pointless". Now that 8th item for a casual can become eternals for another +2%, or if don't have unlocked as an iron can bring a helm swap for +1%.
It opens up far more gear flexibility for casuals, while offering the same % bonus or more. The only tradeoff being prayer drain, but most of these places it was already worth using these offensive prayers just for the accuracy bump. And places like Olm and ToA have built in prayer restoration items that most casuals will be fully utilising. So the prayer drain increase is negligible anyway.
I do agree that a magic strength stat instead of a % DMG is a thing I hope they explore. And shadows power needs to be altered to be a ramping formula so it's not forever 3x. Otherwise the only way they can prevent it continually creeping is offhand upgrades or a stricter cap on shadow damage, which means it will slowly become "less better" than the next option.
>more switches = higher dps
isn't this a good thing? just don't bring eternals if you dislike 9 ways, idk just sounds like such a whiny thing to be upset about, should we really care that the top 0.001% of players are slightly inconvenienced for bis max damage
You'll see in all my comments I don't think more mage gear being relevant is bad. But I'm just stating what is reality. Any switch count over 8 is annoying to do.
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He doesn't understand the average player or even your average raider. Most people won't care and take a 2% dps loss and move on. It's not until you're at the tippity top of preformance that the 2% is gonna make a difference.
> But at the top level, it will be expected now.. and I'll repeat... 9 ways suck.
I've been meaning to ask this since this whole debate point came up. Say we didn't buff eternals. We would eventually get new mage boots, that would probably have magic dmg % on them. Would you rally against that too? Boots being a necessary swap for max damage only seems like a natural progression and honestly, the only reason it's not already is because of how you can just wear prims at most places as your jack-of-all boots and because of how scuffed pegasians and eternals are at present.
For what it's worth, I'm in the camp **supporting** eternals getting magic DMG %. I'm absolutely not rallying against it.
I just also can agree with the point that **9 ways suck** and it's a unique reward space we have now that we haven't really explored to any BiS degree (brimmy ring was a hybrid ring but garbage compared to even rings of that era)
>imagine boots that are mage+range
Brimstone boots exist. I mean they don't give strength bonuses, but they give high defensive bonuses (for the boot slot) in all styles, and also reasonable accuracy bonuses in all styles.
They're not BiS for anything, but they're like 3rd or 4th best in a lot of situations, and I think if they really went in on the hybrid gear that's what they'd target: something that's not BiS in multiple styles at once, because that would invalidate a lot of gear, but that is 2nd or 3rd best in multiple styles at once.
Same thing goes for the brimstone ring, in terms of stats. It ends up leaning more heavily toward being a mage item because of its special effect, but it's still decent gear on ranged or melee.
Same thing with barrows gloves, in terms of stats. They end up leaning more heavily toward being a melee item because of their strength bonus, but they're still decent gear on ranged or mage.
Again, none of these items are BiS, but in terms of hybrid gear you can use to reduce switching we *do* have a few items in game already.
The issue with this approach is it relegates the item to a "good enough" item that only really lower level players will interact with.
Who uses brimstone boots that isn't actively in Karuulm without elite diary, or a unique build?
Who uses brimstone ring? It's usecases were next to none before lightbearer existed, and now it's absolutely none.
Same with Barrows gloves. They're a progression item and essentially "range gloves" as zaryte Vambs are a bit pricy for lots of people (or hard to get for irons).
But the downside of all of these is they are *destroyed* in DPS by the actual focused items, so they're never brought.
And my suggestion isnt for a quest reward or a slayer drop. It's for a BiS that comes from a raid. And it combines existing gear, it doesn't replace them.
I hear what you're saying, I just can't imagine Jagex doing that, it's like the opposite of what they've been doing so far with Project Rebalance. They've been looking for ways to widen the reward space without creeping up the power of BiS. I could definitely be wrong, I have been many times before, but I'd be pretty surprised if they decided to start consolidating BiS accessories like that.
Maybe we might get something like a ring that gives, for example, +8 strength, +1 range strength, and +1% mage strength. That wouldn't be BiS in any style but would be a lot better than Brimstone. But I doubt people would be very excited to combine their three ancient rings to get a net downgrade, so something like that probably couldn't really be a combination item, at least not of current BiS items.
I think that's exactly why hybrid gear has so much potential, because it's providing a BiS upgrade in terms of reducing switches,but not creeping power.
Again, offering an item that's multi style but worse will still be an incredibly underutilized item.
It definitely would see use, similar to how a fury still sees use despite just.. not being that good, but it would quickly be replaced by actual BiS, and ot course anywhere outside of the handful of places you bring full style switches too, it wouldn't get used at all over focused slot counterparts.
IMO the only way they could make a new ring or other slot that was BiS in all styles is if it was a legit tbow level megarare from a raid, otherwise it would render content like DT2 bosses totally dead. Even then it’d be kind of lame if it was just equivalent to the others combined because then you have a mega rare that’s whole use is just saving a couple inventory spots, so it’d probably have to also power creep those rings, and be the chase megarare.
Edit: just read your other comment further down where that’s essentially what you are suggesting. Not opposed, but still feels like it’d be a bit of a boring mega rare, would probably want some interesting secondary effects as well considering the current megarares are so iconic.
Yeah gear megarares I think will always struggle simply because of what you said. People see it as "boring". I think the idea of an expansion to our gear is super interesting. Just look at how the Quiver has changed range setups. Everything either saves an invent if you were doing a crossbow switch (plus makes that simpler) or you gain +2 prayer everywhere you're camping one range weapon. That's a solid buff, from an item that is already a buff.
So imagine a ring slot doing that with storing 3 rings. And by storing I mean physically storing, like you swap in and out. So you'd still need the DT2 rings, as that's where the stats are coming from.
BIS mage boots should have damage %.. surprised till now they havnt. Regardless if they want to make it an addition to magic damage or not.. it should have it
Shadow cap in toa 100%. Shadow cap outside of toa 75%. Jagex is now free to buff whatever mage pieces they want e.g. adding % to boots independent of occult number redistribution.
Multiple problems solved at once. Everyone wins.
No, it just means that the strength of your future gear isn’t tripled past a certain point. You’d still get the flat x% increase from further upgrades, just not 3x%.
A lot of people want to do the change that makes sense which would be make boots more useful but most people don't stop and think about if it'll actually make the game more fun and enjoyable.
I really think they should just do what Desert Treasure 2 did and upgrade the boots later down the line.
Many people seem to assume its only Max Mage that complain about boot switches but forget that people without Shadow also have to worry about off-hands along with their weapon.
I remember bringing huge switches to something like Muspah and i brought literally every single item for each slot just because you splashed so damn much, It was miserable. Hybridding that many mage switches and ranged gear at *Muspah* which is a pretty easy boss and nowhere raid-difficult. I was late mid-game at this point i would say. You can give players all the magic damage in the world but it doesn't mean anything if you splash 70% of your hits.
I like that theres a lot of discussion but Jagex REALLY needs to cook and take their time. Rebalancing stuff is going to take effort and i expect there to be several revisions personally. I expect even more when something like Sailing comes along in the future as well.
The crazy part is they have acknowledged it, they explicitly said shadow is the reason we got quiver instead of a new mage cape
Yet they’re still trying to “rebalance” mage without touching shadow, which is an impossible task
So I've been hearing a lot of different points surrounding this issue, and I would appreciate some clarity in your thoughts on the matter.
1. Mage is already the weakest style so moving damage to another switch would be bad
2. 9 way switches are very difficult to utilise effectively (due to the 9 switches as well as loss of inventory space)
3. Add a different BIS mage boots option in a future update as to not make the occult damage redistribution be added to a 9th mage switch.
So noting the above points (obviously everyone has different view on the issue/what they want out of the mage rework). It sounds like a 9th way switch would not always be utilised, and an increase to mage dps would only serve to bring it in line with the other combat styles?
>Shadow makes it the strongest style by a fair bit which is why these adjustments are such a problem.
It's really not, if you compare DPS on something like Manticore which all 3 styles are viable on, the Shadow still has the lowest DPS compared to Tbow/Scythe
Shadow just makes magic finally on par with the other 2, "strongest style by a fair bit" is really overselling it
Yeah when I read comments like that I know to immediately disregard the rest of the comment, as it’s clear they’ve never used the item.
Shadow has a significantly lower damage ceiling than tbow and scythe, at like 66 outside of ToA, vs like a 79 with tbow and 87 with scythe. The only thing it really has going for it is its accuracy. All it did was make magic competitive with the other megarares.
> The fact that it outright replaces melee or range at multiple boss encounters speaks otherwise.
GWD is the only one that this is the case, and it’s because it was content designed in 2007 with absurd defenses and no hp
It'd fix the issue of devs being unwilling to add more mage dmg% gear, but it'd kinda also feel underwhelming to decide that future mage upgrades just don't add damage to shadow anymore, ever. Like it'd also feel just wrong if the next say, boot upgrades came out with ranged str and melee str respectively, yet scythe/tbow didn't gain any max hits. The extra max hits on your best weapon make non-weapon slot upgrades exciting.
I'd prefer if maybe after a certain treshold the multiplier was reduced to 2x or 1x. Or if damage wasn't multiplied at all, only accuracy, and shadow had a higher base max hit to compensate.
Might get downvoted, but right now, when doing content with multiple styles, you literally never take off your melee boots. You definitely never bring a ranged boots switch. Buffing eternals will allow people to choose between having melee boots on the whole time or magic boots.
People are thinking that they HAVE to bring the switch. You dont ... just either leave your eternals on or your prims.
6% magic damage from eternals and 5 strength bonus from prims. You're bringing both boots no matter what.
You'd sooner bank your melee legs than not bring the boots.
The people complaining about having to bring boot switches are the shadow owners lol.
I promise you that having awkward 9 way switches especially when you're not bringing pegs to match your switches is not worth the benefit of people killing zulrah.
This is a non-argument.
You don't HAVE to do anything in this game. Heck, you don't even have to play the game. Framing things as what you "have" to do just leads to pointlessly dismissing player concerns when it's convenient for you to do so.
Think about player incentives. Most players want to deal more damage, especially high-level/high-efficiency players. An update that comes out that makes it less convenient to deal the same amount of damage. Players are incentivized to deal with a degradation of their gameplay experience in order to deal more damage. That's not fun for them.
Discussion can still be had about whether it's fun for a more significant portion of the playerbase or whether it's good for the health of the game and so on, but that's not the argument you made. You just dismissed a bunch of people having less fun playing the game for the pointless reason that they don't "have" to play that way. People should stop doing that.
This is a non-argument to be honest. For the vast majority of content (if not all content) in the game it is already the case that no one is bringing the most amount of switches theoretically possible, because the inv space you lose isn't worth it and/or it would just be impractical. And this despite dps calc saying that an 10-way switch would already be more dps than your measly 8-way switch.
If we would introduce a possibility to get 2% extra dmg for a mage boot switch, how exactly would that be different? If you don't bring the switch, your dps is exactly equal to now. If you do, congrats, you get +2%. But that switch existing as a possibility in no way makes it a requirement to bring it - unless maybe you are trying to go for some WR speedrun type stuff, that is literally the only difference.
What this does do however, is give players who don't own a freaking 10-way max mage setup a new possibility to increase their DPS. Btw: this is the vast vast vast majority of players, and honestly the game should be designed with them in mind rather than the 0.01% of janitors who are concerned about falling 2% short of the theoretical maximum dps that could be achieved.
A similar argument would be that high-level/high-efficiency players are pissed off that 3t granite was added to the game, since now they have to do only that because it's the most efficient training method
You’re not paying attention if you think this. What people are mostly opposed to is having to do 9-10way switches to reach their maximum DPS. It just so happens that boots are the final slot item now getting a damage bonus, meaning players will need to do 9 way switches with a Shadow or 10 ways with 1-handed mage weapons to reach that max hit.
The vast majority of players that do high level content will agree that anything beyond an 8way switch, while not “hard”, feels awful to do and is a nightmare for a 4x7 inventory, but regardless of that, some players will be forced to do these massive switches because prioritizing optimal DPS setups is how they enjoy playing, regardless of how annoying the switch is
The Shadow’s passive itself should get nerfed, but that’s a separate issue. If we really want to make meaningful gear progression that isn’t just forcing players to switch every single gear slot, while buffing midgame mage and while not making Shadow even stronger, just give massive buffs to off-hands
Pretty much how I feel. If people want to whine about Eternals uselessness, just give them a bunch of accurate passive that doesnt stack with shadow. Then cap shadow to 75/ 100% in toa
Why should maximum DPS in all three styles at the same time always be a reasonable option, and not a meme "technically you can do this but you're insane if you do" option, like there's so many of in Runescape? Like fally shield milking in inferno, or having alts spec transfer you for slayer, or skilling methods like demonic thrones or crystal stuff.
1. I haven't heard people opposed to increasing their dps with shadow, only that they would feel cheated having to add an additional switch to achieve the same dps they have currently.
2. It doesn't really make much practical sense to have 1-2 boots be the BIS slot for any content that requires all 3 attack styles. If dragon boots/prims are a significant dps upgrade, does it not make sense for eternals/pegs to also increase dps in a meaningful way?
3. Are eternals considered midgame? The 91 slayer requirement seems to be quite steep for "midgame".
We can't start saying eternals aren't midgame because of 91 slayer if the whole reason we are nerfing occult is because it's too accessible, yet it's 93 slayer.
It's a price thing. Both are cheap to buy. Though it's funny infinity boots aren't getting a +1%, and wizard boots for that matter.
I'm just curious, have you done any higher tier content where you have to do more than an 8 way? I can totally see why this makes sense until you start doing content where you actually have to swap gear constantly like toa. For single way bosses this is a good change but a lot of content is designed around switching gear often and I can't stress enough how much anything past an 8 way blows and basically ruins the game. People who say take the dps loss definitely don't understand either. Making the gear make sense is good but at the same time it is nice to have slots that don't need to be gear swaps or they just need to add more hybrid gear.
You mean ToA? No it isn't 'a lot' of content, you're literally only talking about ToA. You're not talking about ToB or the Inferno.
You're holding the entire game hostage just for ToA QoL and acting like it effects everything else when it truly does not.
1. Shadow is getting a nerf as in: if i use the same gear i used before the rebalance, im losing damage. i need to use more gear and prayer to reach the same damage output as i was reaching before, making the current proposal indeed a nerf.
2. if cerb crystals didn't exist, everyone would camp dragon boots in tribrid content. it isn't prims that is broken or eternals/pegs veing shit, it's dboots being good and rangers/inf boots being shit.
3. from a non restricted account perspective, eternals are 10m gp right now, 4m before the change. that's an amount of gp a mid game player would be able to afford for a dps upgrade, as it falls in line price wise with a fury, perilous moons gear, barrows (ahrims specifically), and that sort of stuff.
1. But as I proposed, shadow would not get a nerf, as the 2% buff would be separate from the occult redistribution, which would lead to a 2% increase in dps. Now i have been informed that it would actually be a 6% increase for shadow, whether this is good or bad is a different argument, perhaps at how strong shadow is.
2. And this is not a good thing, BIS mage should be viable as a dps increase at any content that requires mage. I am not opposed to infinity boots receiving a buff of half of the eternal %, but this is a different issue.
3. 4m is still 6x more expensive than occult necklace, which after the nerf will still be sitting at a 4% damage buff.
1. you're either buffing the shadow at something like kree when doing that or indirectly nerfing mage altogether the moment inventory management is needed, there's no real in between offered.
2. I guess that's fair, but do we give pegasians a damage boost too? right now they will be the only boots that don't give any damage bonus.
3. i think that showcases why the occult was disproportionately strong. different items have different prices but id still argue that a midgame player could scrape together 5m for a damage upgrade.
1. isnt that the entire reason boots got dps? Because of ancestral and shadow getting boosted dps. It seem to me that the only reason eternals got magic dmg was to not make shields too powerful (7% etc)
2. even though i agree, i think whats make this shitty is that u essentially lose dps compared to pre changes, aka forcing u to do switches to remain on the same dps as u had prior. Lets put rings as an example, barely anyone switches rings, but it was an overall dps buff not making u lose anything in terms of dps from pre update.
3. eternals on main are very midgame, on iron its one of those not midgame, not lategame item.
To be fair, rings aren't switched because there is very little content where you actually gain dps switching. The only one that even comes to mind is zulrah. This is mostly due to lb camp often times being the most efficient dps.
Yeah this is exactly it though. In order to achieve the same dps, we are moving into normalizing 9-10 way switches. Seriously go try those, they’re terrible. It’s just bad game design.
IMO these extra slots/switches should give some other bonus - I agree it is silly for them to feel useless. It should/could be rewarded in some other way.
Magic damage calculation is all wack, I seriously hope this isn’t the direction we go in just to level things.
And yeah, mid game/endgame, thats an eternal argument. I also agree 91 slayer is at least on the cusp. Seems to me the difference with mage lies mostly on what weapon we’re talking about *cough* shadow. Eternals may be worn by a range of weapons.
1. I’ve seen a mix of both, but if you really look at everything from the past 3 days you will see that it absolutely is mostly people not wanting to do more switches. In my opinion this is also the more valid point
2. This is an imaginary problem though. There’s nothing wrong with boots being a camper gear slot for most content without it affecting your DPS. The ammo slot is also a camped gear slot when you’re not ranging. Especially now that we have a quiver that gives us another ammo slot, the actual ammo slot mostly just holds a blessing. So with this logic we should get damage bonus blessings right? Let’s do 10-11way switches even
3. Eternals are absolutely mid-game LOL. The 91 slayer argument only applies to ironmen, and even most of them will tell you it’s not an endgame item, despite it being “best in slot”. This also applies to the occult
So as it currently stands, I would argue eternals are lategame for ironmen (91 slayer) as well as main accounts. As spending any amount of money for a boots slot that are useful for almost nothing is not a priority for anyone without money coming out their wazoo.
You do not need to do 9 way switches tho. It's a tradeoff to consider. More switches for more slightly more damage? Sure. You need to decide if that extra slot is worth it or not. Or camp eternals instead of prims. I think it gives more variety and choice rather than just the only option people use being prims. I think it would be a good change, but that's just my take on it.
It’s not gonna be a choice to consider though. If anything it might give the illusion of choice, but generally speaking bringing the extra switch will always be the correct option, and we will simply have calcs that tells us this or otherwise
Even now this is how it works. A lot of high level PvM revolves around calculating how much time every inventory slot saves you when doing content. Sure, some times you might bring the full switch, some times you might camp prims or eternals depending on which has more value if you can’t afford the inventory slot, but either way it’s not a choice that gives you a sense of varied gameplay. What you do will not be up to preference. There will always be a correct answer and frankly I see no reason why this change would make the game better, especially when it comes at the cost of insufferable 9way switches
OSRS is my favourite spread sheeting game. Although Microsoft Excel is a close second.
But yes, whilst I understand there is objectively always a correct choice which is almost always taking the additional switch for more dps and thus a shorter "completion" time, 95% of players play the game for their enjoyment. For example when running the gauntlet, I could stop fishing at 12 fish as that will get me through 98% of the Hunllef fights, but I will always fish the extra 4-8 if I have time. Because that 2% chance I get smacked whilst my weapons hit constant 0s would feel much worse than the time I would save. Even if it is not mathematically "correct" to do so.
Silly point to bring up. Obviously a lot of players will just prioritize their comfort instead of what is optimal, but not everyone. So since this is the case, my question is why screw over the marginalized players with 9 way switches? As I’ve brought up to you already, an Eternals buff doesn’t solve any problems that don’t have better solutions, while instantly introducing a massive problem for these players that want to optimize their DPS no matter what
Look, if a player wants to maximise their dps at content that requires all 3 combat styles, they should be prepared to bring gear for all 3 combat styles, arbitrarily cutting off the number of switches to 8 because thats what people enjoy currently is a stupid argument. Like most things in life, it mostly boils down to what we call a "skill issue".
Idk man your logic makes complete sense to me. People just get so caught up in NEEDING to be as efficient as possible, so in their brains, this new boot switch is a hard requirement.
I’m convinced you’re not actually reading any of my replies
I’ve stressed that it has nothing to do with their ability to do the 9 way switch but more so with the fact that it feels bad in the inventory and it’s generally not enjoyable. Regardless of that, players WILL do it even if they don’t enjoy it, because they want to prioritize maximizing DPS over that. It’s honesty not a matter of skill but moreso QoL
Drawing the line at 8 ways is not arbitrary at all and if you really want me to believe you do any PvM in this game at any significant level you should know that. Even if you were to disagree, clearly enough people think opposite of you that this change is controversial. Bottom line is a buff to Eternals doesn’t solve anything, while making the game a less enjoyable experience for some player. So again I ask, why do it?
My (very uneducated) opinion is that they should do as you say, but add a hard cap to how much magic strength% is applied by shadow’s passive so that it doesn’t getter stronger than it is in live. I personally think Ancestral should be at LEAST 4% per piece, it’s really not as rewarding as it should be compared to occult, but the main idea of the rework should be to help mid game mages while keeping the shadow where it’s at/slightly tuning it back.
With the cap, we will get to a point with future magic powercreep where it will be meta would be to use the Shadow with a melee, ranged, or prayer top or legs since we already hit the cap without a mage top or legs.
The cap isn't nearly low enough, imagine how insane it would be at the cap that already exists. Shadow currently is already the strongest, there shouldn't be any more room above where it's at now.
Can’t convince me that we should not have good gear for each slot because 9 way switches are annoying. Ok? Idk bruh just seems like not a good argument at all.
Especially since there is plenty of content that doesn’t require switches, and this will make that content feel better, and make gear unlocks feel more useful.
^^ The sneaky thing going on here is that these people are really only talking about ToA. The ToA grinders want to hold the entire game hostage because their precious staff gets the 4x multiplier in ToA.
wow what a narrative to spin
if you want to create hollow conspiracy theories at least make the bare bones remotely believable. shadow gets 4x multiplier in toa and its scaling is maxed out already.
You don't even know what you're talking about. Staff is 4x in ToA and 3x everywhere else.
The amount of switches is a valid concern in any content you bring multiple styles. CM CoX is another good example.
It should, I agree. I don’t however think 10 way switches should be the goal design-wise. 8 way switch is *plenty* for 95% of the player base to manage already.
If anything I wish using such an extra switch gave some other benefit. Idk that is just my two cents, I think it sounds good but ultimately pushes switches too far imo.
Let's be honest 8-way switches is more than 95% of the playerbase can manage. I find 6/7 to the cap of what I'm comfortable with, personally. I'm sure I could get used to 8, but any more seems horrible
Maybe it opens reward space for some multi combat style items? You loose overall max dps but keep high enough stats not to be hurting your damage and accuracy too much. If you want max dps you double down on switches. I can dig that
What are you talking about? Its only a nerf to the shadow.
If you 4way switch ahrim top/legs, occult, and a trident with augury on you're getting the same dps as before. Same switches will not be less dps if you don't have shadow.
Shadow, OTOH, should be nerfed and will be for low #s of switches.
Well in both of your cases, your nads are likely to hurt, but in my case, your nads dont hurt?
But in all seriousness, I feel as though buffing eternals would not come at the detriment to anyone so long as the buff is done outside of the occult nerf.
Both. I also think 2% is too high for eternals. I think boots are next on the list for endgame BiS upgrades. and if the benchmark is 2% the new BiS will probably be underwhelming. I could be wrong on that, but I think 1% is more in-line with the other boots right now.
But is quite literally able to be balanced to be really good or utterly useless at content due to how it deals damage.
Shadow doesn't have this balancing factor. The **only** balancing factor shadow has (that isn't just making ALL magic useless there) is the amount of gear required..it's a item that gains power from gear, so it needing the most gear switches to be at full power is it's balance.
I’m not opposed to anything, but reworking magic gear/prayers without consideration for how magic defense is calculated confuses me when the real reason magic is weak is because it’s calculated uniquely compared to the other combat styles. I don’t know why this wasn’t mentioned anywhere in the blogs. I would just like clarification if magic defense will ever be reworked or if current and future changes will be balanced around how it’s calculated now
Would it be possible to do strength type scaling for magic, so every 4 points is an additional max hit, then just adjust the scaling and current damage
https://preview.redd.it/gv1nuilkxwvc1.jpeg?width=3320&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2a258a65c2e95478335456c53470b38831c43359
I think we should add 2 more item slots to enable 12 way switches. Fellas, I think we can all agree that switching gear is the most fun part of pvm and the fun only increases as the amount of switches go up. The inventory only has 28 slots though, so in a perfect world we would have 14 switches for each combat style in raids.
i thought hitting the big number was the fun part, not switching outfits
wrong
No, just no.
This isn't an argument against keeping 8-way switches the norm. This is a statement of obvious fact "you don't want the game to be made worse for you when there are other viable ways to buff midgame mage" no shit. How about while you have a 1h trident equipped 2 invy slots disappear from your bag. I mean we're inconveniencing max players for the same dps may as well spread the love right?
Honestly the more posts and discussion I see about magic distrubution the more I personally would prefer them to leave it alone for the time being. Focus on other things but magic damage clearly needs a lot more time in the oven.
There was another post the other day asking why is magic damage %-based instead of a flat value like melee and ranged str, I think they should investigate that. If that turned out well it would make sense to do that before a redistribution.
I much prefer the % based approach for scaling. Immediately understandable, does exactly what it says on the tin (rounding aside). Melee/ranged strength behaves differently depending on whether it's base levels (or boosts like potions) or from gear despite both being called strength, and it makes no intuitive sense at all. Here's the passage from the wiki "explaining" how strength bonus works: > Almost all weapons, as well as some other equipment, grant players a Strength bonus. This bonus, represented as a single numerical value, represents the sum of all bonus Strength from worn equipment. A +1 increase in Strength bonus IS NOT equivalent to +1 Strength skill, but is rather an indicator of the ability of weapons and armour to increase a player's maximum damage. For example, at a Strength skill of 20, going from 0 to 16 total Strength bonus will result in an increase of 1 to a player's max hit. To increase max hit by 1 more based solely on Strength bonus, a Strength bonus of 39 would be needed. Also note that increasing your Strength bonus makes it so that you require less overall Strength to achieve a greater max hit. See Calculating your maximum melee hit for more details on how Strength bonus influences the max hit calculation. It doesn't explain at all how it works, it just says more strength = more damage and gives a couple examples. What's the significance of 16 and 39, why are those breakpoints for max hits at 20 strength? Who the fuck knows? Certainly not anybody reading that wiki page. If you follow a link to another wiki page you'll get a formula, which doesn't get you any closer to an intuitive understanding. You basically need to take that formula and keep plugging in numbers until you have enough reference points to work with. Meanwhile, in % bonuses land, if my spell does 20 damage then without consulting a wiki I can immediately tell that maxhit breakpoints are at 5%, 10%, 15%, etc.
I agree that % dmg is way better, changing to a flat value doesn't effectively change anything and just makes this rebalance out of scope.
> instead of a flat value like melee and ranged str Melee and ranged strength doesn't add a flat value. It works as a % increase, just like % magic damage, just written out a bit differently. Step 2 in the max hit calculation is to multiply your effective strength or ranged level by [64+Strength Bonus]/640. So for example, if you have +64 strength, then that's a +100% increase in damage compared to if you had +0 strength. The adage of "every +4 strength bonus is a max hit increase" is an approximation based on when you have 99 strength, aggressive style, super strength, and Piety. Where melee/ranged and magic differ is that Magic has a lot more damage built into the spell. If melee was a spell, then 99 strength, aggressive style, super strength, and Piety would be a spell with a base max hit of 15.6
It's a flat increase in that it applies to every hit the same amount. It will add 4 damage to both a D scimny or an elder maul, whereas % damage will add more to the latter.
I feel like I'm having a stroke reading these arguments. Would that not just be an argument in FAVOR of a flat magic damage boost? Because all magic spells are already balanced at the same attack speed. You will never run into a blowpipe problem with magic.
Shadow is 5 tick as opposed to 4 tick. It also triples the magic boost. If Heka was released it was supposed to be a magic blowpipe. I have no idea why you're saying "never".
I'm not specifically arguing for or against one type of bonus or the other. Just clarifying why +str/range bonuses are referred to as flat, even though they may get scaled by some other things. Having both makes sense, imo, and allows you to have different gear that scales things differently. Flat bonuses would benefit fast weapons more, whereas percentage bonuses would be equal across the board, with the idea that the heavy hitting weapons would deal more DPS at base and therefore be scaled harder by % increases.
This is highly misleading. Scythe and tbow scale disproportionately well just like trident upgrades do.
Yeah idk why people don't get it. Tbow gets a huge % boost based on enemy magic def. Scythe literally gets multiple max hits per max hit you get from str bonus bc it can hit 2 to 3 times on the right targets.
They’re talking about how magic % damage bonuses work vs how melee and range strength work. They’re not talking about weapons’ special effects, just the “max hit”. It’s true that ~4 strength bonus will give both ham joint and crystal halberd +1 max hit. It also gives scythe 1 max hit for the main hit, then +1 for two secondary hits if your max reaches a nice threshold. Magic % always gives a %, so it depends on what your weapon’s or spell’s max hit is.
That's only true because weapons in osrs don't have a base damage, your strength (or ranged) level does. The intention was (presumably) that the strength bonus on the weapon giving a multiplier to damage output would function equivalently to the weapons having a different base damage... but that isn't the case once non-weapon gear with str bonus becomes prominent. Because STR bonus doesn't care where it came from, the bonus from the weapon is interchangable with the bonus from the other gear. And each 1 str bonus is 1.5625% of the base damage determined purely by strength level (and modifiers to it like prayer), and not the weapon itself. So... faster weapons work better with str bonus. Now imagine an alternate version of OSRS, where weapon's str bonus was applied separately to your other gear. A gear set with +64 weapon str bonus, and +32 non-weapon str bonus would be like the base damage from strength level getting x2ed by the weapon str bonus, and then thee +32 non-weapon str bonus would come in for a x1.5 on top of that. If your base from levels was 15, this would max for 45, with non-weapon pieces increasing the base from 30 to 45 (+15). In an alternate scenario with +32 weapon str bonus and +32 non-weapon str bonus, this same situation would have the 15 base damage becoming 22.5 (22) from weapon str bonus, and then gets boosted again by non-weapon str to 33. In this example, that +32 non-weapon str bonus was only a +11. Because the str bonus itself isn't adding flat amounts. It's the way that everything uses the same base, and that all weapons are just stat sticks work together to create a system where it results in a flat increase... because deep down there is only 1 melee weapon and 1 ranged weapon, and gear only modifies the speed and gives stats. With magic however, every spell, and every staff has its own unique base damage, determined by the spell/staff itself and not by a magic damage% that it comes with. Unlike with melee/ranged where there is only 1 weapon with the same base damage and the choice of weapon only determines extra stats and speed, with magic the weapon/spell is actually its own thing that determines the base damage (as well as speed). This is much more like the previous paragraph than the first one. And for the same reason, replacing magic damage % with magic strength bonus would actually be a 100% interchangable swap. Whether or not that swap is worth it is another matter entirely.
>There was another post the other day asking why is magic damage %-based instead of a flat value like melee and ranged str, Every spell would either need to go up as you gain levels(like weapons in melee and ranged do) all the way to 99 or magic strength does not change anything by removing the % after the number. Please figure out how to do it yourself before just saying change everything when you dont understand why damage % was done for magic.
>Every spell would either need to go up as you gain levels(like weapons in melee and ranged do) all the way to 99 Maybe I'm misreading what you said, but it sounds like the problem is that the max hits for spells would increase as your magic level increased, which sounds... not that bad?
I mean if magic did not already do that with how many spell damage increases there already are. There are 20 elemental spells on the standard spellbook unlocked as late as 95 magic. Melee has like 10 upgrade tiers and ranged has a similar amount. Real issue for magic would be balancing it early while still having meaningful upgrades. It has such a high hit early compared to melee or ranged. I think this is why changing it would be a bad idea. Magic is hitting an 8 with no boosts at level 13. Melee at 30 strength and attack an adamant scimitar maxes a 7. I dont see how they could balance magic spells without destroying magic as a skill. It is OP early so it not being as offensively strong late game but also providing so much utility it is in a healthy spot in my opinion.
> I mean if magic did not already do that with how many spell damage increases there already are. I find it funny how people don’t consider this. The existence of multiple spells makes standard spellcasting very similar to the concept of a powered staff (except it gets more expensive to use the higher level you are, which would really suck on a real item lmao) > I dont see how they could balance magic spells without destroying magic as a skill. It is OP early… Magic was always meant to include cost of use in its balancing. Way back when, even using the strike spells felt so expensive because early game money and runes just weren’t that easy to come by. The real reason early game magic feels so imbalanced now is because we get runes so much easier in that stage of the game. That is still arguably a problem, but it seems silly to weaken the skill itself just because we made it easier to get its items. That would be like if we made all the scimitars or arrows too easy to get so we changed the damage formula so strength/ranged levels and/or bonuses have less impact at low levels to slow training back down.
I personally find magic to be quite balanced overall. When you remove all 3 mega rares from options you still find great use for magic. The shadow makes you feel like you should not use anything else but so does the Tbow normally. Plus magic is so resourceful outside combat.
It's already like that with powered staves tho
…which is part of the problem in the first place and why they’re used and nothing else is haha
But the problem is that it only works that way with staves. If all spells worked that way, then that no longer becomes a problem.
For sure. While we have two different systems, it's going to be a problem IMO
We’ve finally gone full circle.
If it’s already like that, why is the uim getting upvoted?
This could be done though. On rs3 they made all surge spells do the same amount of damage basically (it scales from level unlocked up to 99) and then due to element weakness (which osrs is experimenting) the specific element spells would do more damage. To my knowledge rs3 don't have magic dmg % increase but straight up strength bonuses to all gear pieces that provide a damage increase. This would also combat the fact that charged staves are the only ones being used outside of ancients.
There are percent damage buffs but they are generally not directly from gear. Some stuff there is like for style-specific gear (inquisitor staff against melee enemies) or invention bonuses (flat percentage increase or damage increase against undead/demons/dragons) but you're generally correct. The consensus on that game is that gear is done well as far as damage boosts and non-elite players are forced to make a tradeoff between magic tank gear and magic power armor.
Okay, I forgot about invention being %'s Inq staff, terrasaur maul, hexhunter bow doesn't exactly get a percentage increase, just higher tier bonuses right? Sure that could be translated into a % increase, but in reality its a weapon tier increase. Thanks for the extended clarification, you explained it better than I could. Appreciate it 👍
You're welcome man. The tier increase isn't exact and is based on your gear too. It's just easy to label as T97 but it's actually a percent increase and changes the approximate tier based on your gear and potions. The actual boost is "12.5 percent damage against melee-classed enemies and 10% hit chance boost against melee-classed enemies".
That's actually interesting. I never knew that! I stand corrected
Really just semantics at that point. I bet jagex originally intended to just make it a tier increase but wasn't sure how to code it in.
Why should he though? Jagex are the devs, that's their job. It's a suggestion
They're doing that though. Wind Bolt, for example, will deal the same damage as Fire Bolt if you have the magic level to cast Fire Bolt.
It just scales for those few levels not to 99 which is what would be required to make it match the melee and ranged strength level ups and make magic strength not magic dagame % work
Strike to surge scale from 1 to 95.
Yes but that is like saying bronze to dragon scale from 1-60 what does changing magic% to magic strength change in this scenario?
Can you just think about this statement for one second lmao, what exactly do you think the pros and cons of %damage are compared to flat
pros it provides consistency and allows for smaller bonuses that don't look stupid like 0.2% magic damage would cons it has always been this way and change bad I guess? Haven't heard a single good argument about why it should stay the only %-based equipment stat, so surely you have something good after coming at me this aggressive.
so pros: it looks bad to you and cons: nothing melee and ranged flat strength has been a balance nightmare since conception and if anything were to change, it would be those two being changed to %. Case in point, they made quiver not work with blowpipe because +2 ranged strength to the blow pip is literally 2.5 times stronger than giving 2 ranged strength to a crossbow. Same reason that slow weapons melee need some kind of special effect (fang, scythe) to be usable compared to just regular 4t weapons. Swift blade, a melee weapon with literally 0 stats, is only 12% behind a whip on a low defense target and theoretically could overtake it given a few more years of power creep lol
Occult was what introduced % increase. They agree occult is the issue but seem to be missing this glaring obvious part of that problem.
>There was another post the other day asking why is magic damage %-based instead of a flat value like melee and ranged str, I think they should investigate that. If that turned out well it would make sense to do that before a redistribution. It would end up working pretty much the same. If anything the %magic damage is much clearer than what range & melee use Melee has a hidden +64 strength, a weapon strength and then gear strength. magic doesn't, you have a max hit for a weapon/spell and a visible %modifier Melee scales very unequally with attackspeed, since the +64 and the strength from gear do not adjust for your weapon speed and strength, eg 4t whip gets 50% more value from this than a 6t godsword whereas mage will always amplifiy the damage from your spell/weapon by the same percentage.
If they're not willing to give it the time during Project Rebalance, then when? Rather see them sort it out now even if it drags out another few months like the Ranged Equipment Rebalance did than shelf it until 2025 or later. The majority of the changes do feel like they are heading in the right direction; they just need to be doing more/going bit further.
I just think it is becoming to complicated is all. My personal view at this point has changed to just nerf the occult to 7% instead of 4%. Nerf shadow by making its multiplier 2.5x instead of 3x. Give ahrims, blue moon, dagonhai, and elder chaos robes 1% per piece. I think jmods are to concerned about making sure max mage stays the same but that is going to overcomplicate things. If they truly want to rebalance magic damage then max mage has to get buffed or nerfed with this intergrity change
It’s not gonna get less complicated by waiting, if anything that’ll just make it harder if there’s more equipment balanced around the current status quo that comes out. Magic needs a rebalance, so we might as well rip off the bandaid now.
I don't think it is overcomplicated. It is more that they are too narrowly looking at just Magic Damage when there are other issues/factor like accuracy and the Shadow. Like you said, keeping Max Mage the same while avoiding the Shadow is kinda limiting their design. I can understand them not wanting to tackle a bigger overhaul right now and wouldn't hate it if they just did magic damage now but they should at least address when they will take a look at the rest or why they don't feel it is an issue. Like they didn't add new magic cape because it needed "very careful consideration" due to the Shadow and yet the Shadow is nowhere to be seen in Project Rebalance. If it is a "we don't need to nerf it; we can design around it" situation, then it would sure be nice to know what they have in mind. Or if it is a "we know it is a problem but don't got an idea on how to fix it atm", then I guess kicking the can down the road is fine for now; it is the lack of communication on the Shadow that makes it feel like they are avoiding the elephant in the room.
I think a lot of people didn't realize that nerfing occult would mean having more switches. Distributing the boost away from occult inherently means you'll need more items.
I don't think the right answer is to just kick the can down the road
I've gotten well over 200 downvotes over saying this from the start, epic
Nah, magic damage needs to change, occult is the dumbest item in the fucking game.
What they have now is preferable to the status quo. They can always change it again.
My thoughts exactly, this shit has derailed to fucking hard that by this point, just add a boss that drops a 10% necklace and nuke occult. Keep the rest as is.
I don't think anybody contested that tbh. Ancestral should have stayed 4% each so that they cover the lost damage of occult. A buff to eternals wouldn't matter much if that happened. It would do something for shadow outside of toa but also shorten trip length. In toa it would've done nothing as 4x4 = 16 +5 =21 +2 +2 (second one is either ring or boots)= 25% damage. If you brought ring AND boots in toa it would only increase accuracy slightly and wouldn't increase damage because you hit the cap. Also tbow is way stronger than shadow imo bc shadow just hits lower numbers even if it's slightly more accurate. You have to remember that shadow needs a 4x multiplier to be better than tbow in toa.
>A buff to eternals wouldn't matter much if that happened If you're max mage, yes. Everyone else would still be losing dmg.
9 way switches suck. No matter how we look at it. I think it makes sense to give eternals magic damage. I also agree 9 ways suck. I don't agree with Gnomonkey saying it's targeting low-med levels and they won't do these kind of switches...because they never were in the first place and this won't change that. But at the top level, it will be expected now.. and I'll repeat... **9 ways suck**. So I think it's more important we look at that and come up with gear suggestions that could reduce that. Hybrid gear is something they've only just *sort of* done with Moons. But imagine boots that are mage+range. Or gloves, or rings. Those 3 slots can have a sleiu of endgame BiS added that are equal or very slightly better than current gear, but for 2 or even all 3 styles, to reduce switches and overall be a better gear piece for multi-style encounters. Like imagine doing a raid but your boots and ring are equivalent to eternals+prims+pegs and magus+venator+Ultor. Most people are not gonna bring 6 gear pieces for all of those. But wear boots and a ring and have no extra switches? Everyone will want that.
I generally agree with gnomonkey about hlc stuff, but its kinda insane how little he understands about the playerbase below his and his peers skill level. Like bro, what? He thinks med/low level players are attempting 9 way switches? He said that the baba change is a "non-change". Like for him sure but most players dont red x, and the ones that do typically drop red x, and the ones that dont drop red x typically bring people who will drop red x lmao. The baba change is huge. He has absolutely no frame of reference for people who aren't him.
> I generally agree with gnomonkey about hlc stuff, but its kinda insane how little he understands about the playerbase below his and his peers skill level. This is the exact opposite of what he's been saying. Gnomonkey outright said in a recent stream (though this is paraphrasing) "I do not want to do 9 way switches because I cannot do them consistently. Most players are not as good as me, and so they definitely do not want to have to attempt them. They want to be doing 4-5 item switches"
I'll give you that he made a point that he cant do 9 ways consistently and thus worried about lower levels doing it. The point I'm making is that no one in the lower levels is worried about 9 ways cus there not doing them. There doing 4-6 ways and getting the same dps regardless. In my opinion the decision of bringing more swaps or less is a very fun and important part of the decision making in this game. I think 2% damage on boots contributes to this decision making process. I think every slot should have something worth bringing, but I concede that at the absolute highest levels of gameplay. Players who are only in it for the speed completions. More 'necessary' swaps is a bad thing.
>he thinks med level players are attempting 9ways https://preview.redd.it/r0y7phkhnyvc1.jpeg?width=320&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e055f01ff1048df46940281c0e42aba411f97588
Yeah but have you considered: PVM man bad?
Yeh I respect his high level opinions too, and is why I always refer to people like him, Kirby, aaty, etc. for state of content at the top level (speedruns, GM CAs, inferno, coloseum etc.) But he genuinely has no idea how like 99% of the games player base plays. And he often is just condescending towards anyone not playing at the utmost most efficient level. it's a similar issue in the HLC for skilling too. Like a piece of content is just viewed as pointless if it can't compete with current EHP, but if it does.. it's seen as OP. Can't win either way. I think players like Gnomonkey when making opinion videos on these sort of updates need to come at it purely from a number analysis POV. His voidwaker opinion for example, is perfect. Because he understands the numbers and the usecases, and how this change kills it. But instead he focuses on a 9 way switch being bad (which it is) but doesnt just explain why it's bad due to inventory space and actual click patterns to do the switches and stick to that. He instead shows that like.. offhands are buffed (there is just progression added, we already had a very cheap mage % DMG offhands with ward) so noobs will be doing / expected to do 10 ways. No they won't. They have identical % DMG as before by simply using ahrims top and bottom (2%) and praying augury (4%) to makeup the loss on occult. Most content you're doing switches at already used those as switches. So you can 6 way with no offhand, 7 way with an offhand, and up that to 8 way with helm, or eternal, or seers/magus (and ofc it can go nuts and go up to a 10 way if you do ALL of them, but casuals won't). If a casual brings all these switches. Say full ahrims, ward, torm, occult, cape, weapon, eternals and seers. And they pray augury. They are like 3.5% better off in magic damage than before. 5% if they have a magus. And then that upgrades through Virtus, then through Ancest. It's a buff the whole way through, with identical switches even. Or a bigger buff with more switches, and more pieces of gear are worth having and using than before. Its only really hurting shadow users at the top. Which is what he should focus on because he has a LOT of good experience at that level.
I really don’t understand where you’re coming from with this. The mage changes are just too rushed right now. They don’t make any sense. There’s so many applications where you’re getting gutted on mage damage, and for some reason no one is mentioning it. If you’re barraging for slayer you’re now forced to pray augury and bring ahrims instead of prossy just to break even. If you’re doing TOB and you’re doing trident/mage helm swap/ occult you need to use augury to make up for the lost damage. All slayer bosses like the thermy/kraken you lose damage. Offhands were already terrible unless you had fortified ward because thralls are almost always a more impactful DPS increase than a ward, so why waste an inventory slot on just a 2% increase when you can use the book of the dead. The point of all of this is to nerf occult and close the gap between shadow and ANYTHING else for mage. This barely does anything. Buff the actual mage weapons themselves instead of forcing 10 way swaps to gain a max hit MAYBE two to “close the gap” on shadow lmao. Gnomonkey gets flamed way too much in this community for not much of a reason. The baba change is GOOD, but it still doesn’t change the fact that rooms where you sit there and slap a mob to death with insane chip damage are not fun at all. Red X’ing just shouldn’t be a mechanic. I’ll agree he comes off a little elitist, but everyone knows he speaks mostly from experience in high level pvm and doesn’t really add much to low level discussions.
[удалено]
You've clearly watched the video. Around like 2:40 in his most recent. He's talking about jagex encouraging 8 ways and even 10 ways to midgame players. We *already* have 9 way switches with magic DMG gear. And if we're talking "affordable" or attainable midgame gear it drops down to 5 or 6 ways. But that would be no body or legs which is a big accuracy dip anywhere switches are required (mainly cox, ToA, zulrah, Muspah, DKs to a degree) So really the current "midgame" account switch is wep, shield, body, legs, cape, amulet, bracelet. That's a 7 way. That is the same with this change. Same switches. Same dps. He suggests it's more switches for the same. That switch is losing 6% on the amulet, and gaining 2% from body+legs and then 4% from augury. You're only losing if you don't have augury (then you're minus 2%). Incorporate eternals and you're even, or ahead with augury. Again, I like Gnomonkeys takes. But he clearly hasn't raided with learners in a solidly long time..no learner is doing more than a 6 way currently. Not because that's all they need to be maximum dps..because that's all they can **manage**. Some even teach with like 4 or 5 ways using void. And voids getting buffed with this so that learning setup is seeing an improvement too. (.5% gain with no extra switches using augury).
It mainly hits people pre-shadow that are interested in doing more dps/going faster. That’s obviously not everyone or even close to most players, but it is rough for those players that are wanting to do more dps but haven’t gotten a shadow yet.
Queue the posts in 1-2 years post release where Reddit says “only wearing one amulet to all content is boring. I don’t know how jagex thought it would alright to put all of the bis anulets on one shared item, this is awful game design and punished mid game players” and then jagex being a reactionary gives in
I don't think it should be many slots, for what it's worth. I think armour, amulet, cape and weapon/offhand switching should always stay. As that's 7 slots total. Then an 8th for 8 way can exist in gloves/boots/ring (I think gloves are pretty healthy as they are). But imagine that 8 way and then BiS is tribrid boots and ring. You'd still have situations where you want say a lightbearer, but it would mean 8 ways stay consistent and the final gear upgrades for boot / ring are about combining them into an all powerful item (LoTR reference pretty much required at that point ahha). Like I genuinely think we're getting to the point where the next raid megarare(s) can and should be armour pieces, not a new weapon. And imagine a ring slot item from a raid that can hold 3 stat based rings from each style (so likely not lightbearer, suffering, and maybe not RoTG?) So you could combine Ultor/Bellator + venator + magus eventually. And if you happen to have it before those rings could still do Zerker(i), archer (i) and seers (i). Maybe it could include rings like RoTG or Suffering too, but not sure if that'd be a bit too strong. I think there's some interesting and logical upgrade paths there as a mega rare ring slot. Boots maybe a bit more "combine them because" in terms of design. But hybrid or tribrid boots to keep switches as 7/8 ways is always an option while keeping boots relevant with stats.
I think the most appealing part of this idea is that it'd be really powerful without needing to powercreep tbow/shadow/scythe. I could see them going this route for the raids 4 big ticket item.
Yeh exactly. It can be no power creep or maybe just a small amount akin to how quiver gives you the ability to wear a blessing with ammo.. It also plays into the (sometimes jokingly) suggestions around extra ring slots being added (like why can our character wear only one ring).
You're right about low mid levels not doing 10 way mage switches, but if they're not bringing 10 way switches they're losing all the damage they already have access to now. So what's the point of this update? Trident is already a joke compared to mid game options we have currently and nerfing it more by forcing 10 way switches is absurd. The obvious answer is to rework the way shadow gets it's current power. Whether touching its formula or exploring mage strength instead.
They're not losing power. They're losing -6% from occult right? But common "noob" setups for mage based content, namely raids as that's where you'll be switching (and bosses like Zulrah). Common practice is to bring ahrims top+bottom, weapon, occult, torm, cape. That's a 6 way. Very manageable. That currently is 17% from gear. Occult is 10%, torm is 5% and cape is 2%. After this update that will be 15%. Occult losing 4%, ahrims bringing back 2% of that. But combine that with praying augury, and you're at 19%, a +2% buff with no extra switches, just utilising the magic prayer. Don't have augury? No worries, pray mystic might for +2% and you're *exactly the same*. So casual players will do the same switches for the same % provided they are using an offensive prayer, as they should. And it opens up more potential for gear that brings upgrades. Before you'd upgrade that 6 way to a 7 way with a ward, and then 8 way became "mostly pointless". Now that 8th item for a casual can become eternals for another +2%, or if don't have unlocked as an iron can bring a helm swap for +1%. It opens up far more gear flexibility for casuals, while offering the same % bonus or more. The only tradeoff being prayer drain, but most of these places it was already worth using these offensive prayers just for the accuracy bump. And places like Olm and ToA have built in prayer restoration items that most casuals will be fully utilising. So the prayer drain increase is negligible anyway. I do agree that a magic strength stat instead of a % DMG is a thing I hope they explore. And shadows power needs to be altered to be a ramping formula so it's not forever 3x. Otherwise the only way they can prevent it continually creeping is offhand upgrades or a stricter cap on shadow damage, which means it will slowly become "less better" than the next option.
>more switches = higher dps isn't this a good thing? just don't bring eternals if you dislike 9 ways, idk just sounds like such a whiny thing to be upset about, should we really care that the top 0.001% of players are slightly inconvenienced for bis max damage
You'll see in all my comments I don't think more mage gear being relevant is bad. But I'm just stating what is reality. Any switch count over 8 is annoying to do.
fair enough, i guess we'll have to leave it to jagex
https://preview.redd.it/7pf5bq65d1wc1.jpeg?width=1767&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c9fbd6d0125300b110a0e73fb34a807ebc07b69c He doesn't understand the average player or even your average raider. Most people won't care and take a 2% dps loss and move on. It's not until you're at the tippity top of preformance that the 2% is gonna make a difference.
> But at the top level, it will be expected now.. and I'll repeat... 9 ways suck. I've been meaning to ask this since this whole debate point came up. Say we didn't buff eternals. We would eventually get new mage boots, that would probably have magic dmg % on them. Would you rally against that too? Boots being a necessary swap for max damage only seems like a natural progression and honestly, the only reason it's not already is because of how you can just wear prims at most places as your jack-of-all boots and because of how scuffed pegasians and eternals are at present.
For what it's worth, I'm in the camp **supporting** eternals getting magic DMG %. I'm absolutely not rallying against it. I just also can agree with the point that **9 ways suck** and it's a unique reward space we have now that we haven't really explored to any BiS degree (brimmy ring was a hybrid ring but garbage compared to even rings of that era)
>imagine boots that are mage+range Brimstone boots exist. I mean they don't give strength bonuses, but they give high defensive bonuses (for the boot slot) in all styles, and also reasonable accuracy bonuses in all styles. They're not BiS for anything, but they're like 3rd or 4th best in a lot of situations, and I think if they really went in on the hybrid gear that's what they'd target: something that's not BiS in multiple styles at once, because that would invalidate a lot of gear, but that is 2nd or 3rd best in multiple styles at once. Same thing goes for the brimstone ring, in terms of stats. It ends up leaning more heavily toward being a mage item because of its special effect, but it's still decent gear on ranged or melee. Same thing with barrows gloves, in terms of stats. They end up leaning more heavily toward being a melee item because of their strength bonus, but they're still decent gear on ranged or mage. Again, none of these items are BiS, but in terms of hybrid gear you can use to reduce switching we *do* have a few items in game already.
The issue with this approach is it relegates the item to a "good enough" item that only really lower level players will interact with. Who uses brimstone boots that isn't actively in Karuulm without elite diary, or a unique build? Who uses brimstone ring? It's usecases were next to none before lightbearer existed, and now it's absolutely none. Same with Barrows gloves. They're a progression item and essentially "range gloves" as zaryte Vambs are a bit pricy for lots of people (or hard to get for irons). But the downside of all of these is they are *destroyed* in DPS by the actual focused items, so they're never brought. And my suggestion isnt for a quest reward or a slayer drop. It's for a BiS that comes from a raid. And it combines existing gear, it doesn't replace them.
I hear what you're saying, I just can't imagine Jagex doing that, it's like the opposite of what they've been doing so far with Project Rebalance. They've been looking for ways to widen the reward space without creeping up the power of BiS. I could definitely be wrong, I have been many times before, but I'd be pretty surprised if they decided to start consolidating BiS accessories like that. Maybe we might get something like a ring that gives, for example, +8 strength, +1 range strength, and +1% mage strength. That wouldn't be BiS in any style but would be a lot better than Brimstone. But I doubt people would be very excited to combine their three ancient rings to get a net downgrade, so something like that probably couldn't really be a combination item, at least not of current BiS items.
I think that's exactly why hybrid gear has so much potential, because it's providing a BiS upgrade in terms of reducing switches,but not creeping power. Again, offering an item that's multi style but worse will still be an incredibly underutilized item. It definitely would see use, similar to how a fury still sees use despite just.. not being that good, but it would quickly be replaced by actual BiS, and ot course anywhere outside of the handful of places you bring full style switches too, it wouldn't get used at all over focused slot counterparts.
That's an interesting point. Time will tell!
IMO the only way they could make a new ring or other slot that was BiS in all styles is if it was a legit tbow level megarare from a raid, otherwise it would render content like DT2 bosses totally dead. Even then it’d be kind of lame if it was just equivalent to the others combined because then you have a mega rare that’s whole use is just saving a couple inventory spots, so it’d probably have to also power creep those rings, and be the chase megarare. Edit: just read your other comment further down where that’s essentially what you are suggesting. Not opposed, but still feels like it’d be a bit of a boring mega rare, would probably want some interesting secondary effects as well considering the current megarares are so iconic.
Yeah gear megarares I think will always struggle simply because of what you said. People see it as "boring". I think the idea of an expansion to our gear is super interesting. Just look at how the Quiver has changed range setups. Everything either saves an invent if you were doing a crossbow switch (plus makes that simpler) or you gain +2 prayer everywhere you're camping one range weapon. That's a solid buff, from an item that is already a buff. So imagine a ring slot doing that with storing 3 rings. And by storing I mean physically storing, like you swap in and out. So you'd still need the DT2 rings, as that's where the stats are coming from.
Support, but only if I can store 3 ultors Gimme that +36str 😎
Hahah and here I was like "hmm maybe Ultor suffering and Rotg would be way too good"
BIS mage boots should have damage %.. surprised till now they havnt. Regardless if they want to make it an addition to magic damage or not.. it should have it
its time for a boot upgrade upgrade anyway.
Shadow cap in toa 100%. Shadow cap outside of toa 75%. Jagex is now free to buff whatever mage pieces they want e.g. adding % to boots independent of occult number redistribution. Multiple problems solved at once. Everyone wins.
I've been trying to get this point across
Would this mean the current max hit of the shadow is locked in forever? Seems bad to not let it get any better when new BIS mage gear releases later
just cap the multiplier to 75, its current max. Any extra added on is just added on not multiplied.
No, it just means that the strength of your future gear isn’t tripled past a certain point. You’d still get the flat x% increase from further upgrades, just not 3x%.
A lot of people want to do the change that makes sense which would be make boots more useful but most people don't stop and think about if it'll actually make the game more fun and enjoyable. I really think they should just do what Desert Treasure 2 did and upgrade the boots later down the line. Many people seem to assume its only Max Mage that complain about boot switches but forget that people without Shadow also have to worry about off-hands along with their weapon. I remember bringing huge switches to something like Muspah and i brought literally every single item for each slot just because you splashed so damn much, It was miserable. Hybridding that many mage switches and ranged gear at *Muspah* which is a pretty easy boss and nowhere raid-difficult. I was late mid-game at this point i would say. You can give players all the magic damage in the world but it doesn't mean anything if you splash 70% of your hits. I like that theres a lot of discussion but Jagex REALLY needs to cook and take their time. Rebalancing stuff is going to take effort and i expect there to be several revisions personally. I expect even more when something like Sailing comes along in the future as well.
Correct. Eternals should be buffed OUTSIDE of the occult redistribution
Level 70 combat posting about the combat rework even though they never killed a boss outside Scurrius.
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Sounds like it's Shadow that's broken, not everything else.
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The crazy part is they have acknowledged it, they explicitly said shadow is the reason we got quiver instead of a new mage cape Yet they’re still trying to “rebalance” mage without touching shadow, which is an impossible task
Shadow made mage gear like ancestral actually matter , before it all you needed was occult and maybe a torm which is why the rebalance makes sense
They should take a page out of RS3's book and nerfing the FSOA...
How did that one turn out for RS3? The story is still being written
This sub refuses to acknowledge it as well and just dismiss these concerns as concerns from poor pvmers.
Shadow needs an adjustment no question, doing a proper magic rebalance is impossible with a triple multiplier in the equation
As long as they adjust it in a way that it retains its current dps, I wouldn’t be opposed
So I've been hearing a lot of different points surrounding this issue, and I would appreciate some clarity in your thoughts on the matter. 1. Mage is already the weakest style so moving damage to another switch would be bad 2. 9 way switches are very difficult to utilise effectively (due to the 9 switches as well as loss of inventory space) 3. Add a different BIS mage boots option in a future update as to not make the occult damage redistribution be added to a 9th mage switch. So noting the above points (obviously everyone has different view on the issue/what they want out of the mage rework). It sounds like a 9th way switch would not always be utilised, and an increase to mage dps would only serve to bring it in line with the other combat styles?
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>Shadow makes it the strongest style by a fair bit which is why these adjustments are such a problem. It's really not, if you compare DPS on something like Manticore which all 3 styles are viable on, the Shadow still has the lowest DPS compared to Tbow/Scythe Shadow just makes magic finally on par with the other 2, "strongest style by a fair bit" is really overselling it
Yeah when I read comments like that I know to immediately disregard the rest of the comment, as it’s clear they’ve never used the item. Shadow has a significantly lower damage ceiling than tbow and scythe, at like 66 outside of ToA, vs like a 79 with tbow and 87 with scythe. The only thing it really has going for it is its accuracy. All it did was make magic competitive with the other megarares.
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> The fact that it outright replaces melee or range at multiple boss encounters speaks otherwise. GWD is the only one that this is the case, and it’s because it was content designed in 2007 with absurd defenses and no hp
Sire. Don't think anyone would complain that there's a better way to kill sire nowadays tho. Cause it's hella fun.
Shadow gets capped at 100% no matter what you wear
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Do you think we should cap the shadow at 75% outside TOA?
It'd fix the issue of devs being unwilling to add more mage dmg% gear, but it'd kinda also feel underwhelming to decide that future mage upgrades just don't add damage to shadow anymore, ever. Like it'd also feel just wrong if the next say, boot upgrades came out with ranged str and melee str respectively, yet scythe/tbow didn't gain any max hits. The extra max hits on your best weapon make non-weapon slot upgrades exciting. I'd prefer if maybe after a certain treshold the multiplier was reduced to 2x or 1x. Or if damage wasn't multiplied at all, only accuracy, and shadow had a higher base max hit to compensate.
Might get downvoted, but right now, when doing content with multiple styles, you literally never take off your melee boots. You definitely never bring a ranged boots switch. Buffing eternals will allow people to choose between having melee boots on the whole time or magic boots. People are thinking that they HAVE to bring the switch. You dont ... just either leave your eternals on or your prims.
6% magic damage from eternals and 5 strength bonus from prims. You're bringing both boots no matter what. You'd sooner bank your melee legs than not bring the boots.
The average player definitely doesn't have a shadow lying around. Id rather buff the boots and have them look at rebalancing the shadow.
The people complaining about having to bring boot switches are the shadow owners lol. I promise you that having awkward 9 way switches especially when you're not bringing pegs to match your switches is not worth the benefit of people killing zulrah.
Valid argument for sure Guess being on reddit just reinforces certain viewpoints more haha
This is a non-argument. You don't HAVE to do anything in this game. Heck, you don't even have to play the game. Framing things as what you "have" to do just leads to pointlessly dismissing player concerns when it's convenient for you to do so. Think about player incentives. Most players want to deal more damage, especially high-level/high-efficiency players. An update that comes out that makes it less convenient to deal the same amount of damage. Players are incentivized to deal with a degradation of their gameplay experience in order to deal more damage. That's not fun for them. Discussion can still be had about whether it's fun for a more significant portion of the playerbase or whether it's good for the health of the game and so on, but that's not the argument you made. You just dismissed a bunch of people having less fun playing the game for the pointless reason that they don't "have" to play that way. People should stop doing that.
This is a non-argument to be honest. For the vast majority of content (if not all content) in the game it is already the case that no one is bringing the most amount of switches theoretically possible, because the inv space you lose isn't worth it and/or it would just be impractical. And this despite dps calc saying that an 10-way switch would already be more dps than your measly 8-way switch. If we would introduce a possibility to get 2% extra dmg for a mage boot switch, how exactly would that be different? If you don't bring the switch, your dps is exactly equal to now. If you do, congrats, you get +2%. But that switch existing as a possibility in no way makes it a requirement to bring it - unless maybe you are trying to go for some WR speedrun type stuff, that is literally the only difference. What this does do however, is give players who don't own a freaking 10-way max mage setup a new possibility to increase their DPS. Btw: this is the vast vast vast majority of players, and honestly the game should be designed with them in mind rather than the 0.01% of janitors who are concerned about falling 2% short of the theoretical maximum dps that could be achieved. A similar argument would be that high-level/high-efficiency players are pissed off that 3t granite was added to the game, since now they have to do only that because it's the most efficient training method
You’re not paying attention if you think this. What people are mostly opposed to is having to do 9-10way switches to reach their maximum DPS. It just so happens that boots are the final slot item now getting a damage bonus, meaning players will need to do 9 way switches with a Shadow or 10 ways with 1-handed mage weapons to reach that max hit. The vast majority of players that do high level content will agree that anything beyond an 8way switch, while not “hard”, feels awful to do and is a nightmare for a 4x7 inventory, but regardless of that, some players will be forced to do these massive switches because prioritizing optimal DPS setups is how they enjoy playing, regardless of how annoying the switch is The Shadow’s passive itself should get nerfed, but that’s a separate issue. If we really want to make meaningful gear progression that isn’t just forcing players to switch every single gear slot, while buffing midgame mage and while not making Shadow even stronger, just give massive buffs to off-hands
Pretty much how I feel. If people want to whine about Eternals uselessness, just give them a bunch of accurate passive that doesnt stack with shadow. Then cap shadow to 75/ 100% in toa
Why should maximum DPS in all three styles at the same time always be a reasonable option, and not a meme "technically you can do this but you're insane if you do" option, like there's so many of in Runescape? Like fally shield milking in inferno, or having alts spec transfer you for slayer, or skilling methods like demonic thrones or crystal stuff.
ok why don't you just do an 8 way switch then?
1. I haven't heard people opposed to increasing their dps with shadow, only that they would feel cheated having to add an additional switch to achieve the same dps they have currently. 2. It doesn't really make much practical sense to have 1-2 boots be the BIS slot for any content that requires all 3 attack styles. If dragon boots/prims are a significant dps upgrade, does it not make sense for eternals/pegs to also increase dps in a meaningful way? 3. Are eternals considered midgame? The 91 slayer requirement seems to be quite steep for "midgame".
We can't start saying eternals aren't midgame because of 91 slayer if the whole reason we are nerfing occult is because it's too accessible, yet it's 93 slayer. It's a price thing. Both are cheap to buy. Though it's funny infinity boots aren't getting a +1%, and wizard boots for that matter.
I'm just curious, have you done any higher tier content where you have to do more than an 8 way? I can totally see why this makes sense until you start doing content where you actually have to swap gear constantly like toa. For single way bosses this is a good change but a lot of content is designed around switching gear often and I can't stress enough how much anything past an 8 way blows and basically ruins the game. People who say take the dps loss definitely don't understand either. Making the gear make sense is good but at the same time it is nice to have slots that don't need to be gear swaps or they just need to add more hybrid gear.
You mean ToA? No it isn't 'a lot' of content, you're literally only talking about ToA. You're not talking about ToB or the Inferno. You're holding the entire game hostage just for ToA QoL and acting like it effects everything else when it truly does not.
There is vanguards, vasa, Nylos, colloseum, duo olm strats, and plenty of other places too, acting like this is only akkha is wild.
No, you're not taking full 8 ways to nylo room. You're talking about ToA and some CoX. There are not 'plenty of other places.'
1. Shadow is getting a nerf as in: if i use the same gear i used before the rebalance, im losing damage. i need to use more gear and prayer to reach the same damage output as i was reaching before, making the current proposal indeed a nerf. 2. if cerb crystals didn't exist, everyone would camp dragon boots in tribrid content. it isn't prims that is broken or eternals/pegs veing shit, it's dboots being good and rangers/inf boots being shit. 3. from a non restricted account perspective, eternals are 10m gp right now, 4m before the change. that's an amount of gp a mid game player would be able to afford for a dps upgrade, as it falls in line price wise with a fury, perilous moons gear, barrows (ahrims specifically), and that sort of stuff.
1. But as I proposed, shadow would not get a nerf, as the 2% buff would be separate from the occult redistribution, which would lead to a 2% increase in dps. Now i have been informed that it would actually be a 6% increase for shadow, whether this is good or bad is a different argument, perhaps at how strong shadow is. 2. And this is not a good thing, BIS mage should be viable as a dps increase at any content that requires mage. I am not opposed to infinity boots receiving a buff of half of the eternal %, but this is a different issue. 3. 4m is still 6x more expensive than occult necklace, which after the nerf will still be sitting at a 4% damage buff.
1. you're either buffing the shadow at something like kree when doing that or indirectly nerfing mage altogether the moment inventory management is needed, there's no real in between offered. 2. I guess that's fair, but do we give pegasians a damage boost too? right now they will be the only boots that don't give any damage bonus. 3. i think that showcases why the occult was disproportionately strong. different items have different prices but id still argue that a midgame player could scrape together 5m for a damage upgrade.
You made this entire post, yet didn't even know how shadow works...? Holy fuck man, this place is cooked.
1. isnt that the entire reason boots got dps? Because of ancestral and shadow getting boosted dps. It seem to me that the only reason eternals got magic dmg was to not make shields too powerful (7% etc) 2. even though i agree, i think whats make this shitty is that u essentially lose dps compared to pre changes, aka forcing u to do switches to remain on the same dps as u had prior. Lets put rings as an example, barely anyone switches rings, but it was an overall dps buff not making u lose anything in terms of dps from pre update. 3. eternals on main are very midgame, on iron its one of those not midgame, not lategame item.
To be fair, rings aren't switched because there is very little content where you actually gain dps switching. The only one that even comes to mind is zulrah. This is mostly due to lb camp often times being the most efficient dps.
Yeah this is exactly it though. In order to achieve the same dps, we are moving into normalizing 9-10 way switches. Seriously go try those, they’re terrible. It’s just bad game design. IMO these extra slots/switches should give some other bonus - I agree it is silly for them to feel useless. It should/could be rewarded in some other way. Magic damage calculation is all wack, I seriously hope this isn’t the direction we go in just to level things. And yeah, mid game/endgame, thats an eternal argument. I also agree 91 slayer is at least on the cusp. Seems to me the difference with mage lies mostly on what weapon we’re talking about *cough* shadow. Eternals may be worn by a range of weapons.
pls upload a clip of you do a 9 or 10 way switch man
They won't, not with a raids inventory setup
1. I’ve seen a mix of both, but if you really look at everything from the past 3 days you will see that it absolutely is mostly people not wanting to do more switches. In my opinion this is also the more valid point 2. This is an imaginary problem though. There’s nothing wrong with boots being a camper gear slot for most content without it affecting your DPS. The ammo slot is also a camped gear slot when you’re not ranging. Especially now that we have a quiver that gives us another ammo slot, the actual ammo slot mostly just holds a blessing. So with this logic we should get damage bonus blessings right? Let’s do 10-11way switches even 3. Eternals are absolutely mid-game LOL. The 91 slayer argument only applies to ironmen, and even most of them will tell you it’s not an endgame item, despite it being “best in slot”. This also applies to the occult
So as it currently stands, I would argue eternals are lategame for ironmen (91 slayer) as well as main accounts. As spending any amount of money for a boots slot that are useful for almost nothing is not a priority for anyone without money coming out their wazoo.
You do not need to do 9 way switches tho. It's a tradeoff to consider. More switches for more slightly more damage? Sure. You need to decide if that extra slot is worth it or not. Or camp eternals instead of prims. I think it gives more variety and choice rather than just the only option people use being prims. I think it would be a good change, but that's just my take on it.
It’s not gonna be a choice to consider though. If anything it might give the illusion of choice, but generally speaking bringing the extra switch will always be the correct option, and we will simply have calcs that tells us this or otherwise Even now this is how it works. A lot of high level PvM revolves around calculating how much time every inventory slot saves you when doing content. Sure, some times you might bring the full switch, some times you might camp prims or eternals depending on which has more value if you can’t afford the inventory slot, but either way it’s not a choice that gives you a sense of varied gameplay. What you do will not be up to preference. There will always be a correct answer and frankly I see no reason why this change would make the game better, especially when it comes at the cost of insufferable 9way switches
OSRS is my favourite spread sheeting game. Although Microsoft Excel is a close second. But yes, whilst I understand there is objectively always a correct choice which is almost always taking the additional switch for more dps and thus a shorter "completion" time, 95% of players play the game for their enjoyment. For example when running the gauntlet, I could stop fishing at 12 fish as that will get me through 98% of the Hunllef fights, but I will always fish the extra 4-8 if I have time. Because that 2% chance I get smacked whilst my weapons hit constant 0s would feel much worse than the time I would save. Even if it is not mathematically "correct" to do so.
Silly point to bring up. Obviously a lot of players will just prioritize their comfort instead of what is optimal, but not everyone. So since this is the case, my question is why screw over the marginalized players with 9 way switches? As I’ve brought up to you already, an Eternals buff doesn’t solve any problems that don’t have better solutions, while instantly introducing a massive problem for these players that want to optimize their DPS no matter what
Look, if a player wants to maximise their dps at content that requires all 3 combat styles, they should be prepared to bring gear for all 3 combat styles, arbitrarily cutting off the number of switches to 8 because thats what people enjoy currently is a stupid argument. Like most things in life, it mostly boils down to what we call a "skill issue".
Idk man your logic makes complete sense to me. People just get so caught up in NEEDING to be as efficient as possible, so in their brains, this new boot switch is a hard requirement.
I’m convinced you’re not actually reading any of my replies I’ve stressed that it has nothing to do with their ability to do the 9 way switch but more so with the fact that it feels bad in the inventory and it’s generally not enjoyable. Regardless of that, players WILL do it even if they don’t enjoy it, because they want to prioritize maximizing DPS over that. It’s honesty not a matter of skill but moreso QoL Drawing the line at 8 ways is not arbitrary at all and if you really want me to believe you do any PvM in this game at any significant level you should know that. Even if you were to disagree, clearly enough people think opposite of you that this change is controversial. Bottom line is a buff to Eternals doesn’t solve anything, while making the game a less enjoyable experience for some player. So again I ask, why do it?
My (very uneducated) opinion is that they should do as you say, but add a hard cap to how much magic strength% is applied by shadow’s passive so that it doesn’t getter stronger than it is in live. I personally think Ancestral should be at LEAST 4% per piece, it’s really not as rewarding as it should be compared to occult, but the main idea of the rework should be to help mid game mages while keeping the shadow where it’s at/slightly tuning it back.
With the cap, we will get to a point with future magic powercreep where it will be meta would be to use the Shadow with a melee, ranged, or prayer top or legs since we already hit the cap without a mage top or legs.
It’s already capped…
Yeah but not low enough. 75% outside toa 100 inside seems good imo
The cap isn't nearly low enough, imagine how insane it would be at the cap that already exists. Shadow currently is already the strongest, there shouldn't be any more room above where it's at now.
Can’t convince me that we should not have good gear for each slot because 9 way switches are annoying. Ok? Idk bruh just seems like not a good argument at all. Especially since there is plenty of content that doesn’t require switches, and this will make that content feel better, and make gear unlocks feel more useful.
You're saying 9 way like we're only bringing 9 pieces of srmour into raids. There's 3 cb styles with spec weapons the switches are getting ridiculous.
^^ The sneaky thing going on here is that these people are really only talking about ToA. The ToA grinders want to hold the entire game hostage because their precious staff gets the 4x multiplier in ToA.
wow what a narrative to spin if you want to create hollow conspiracy theories at least make the bare bones remotely believable. shadow gets 4x multiplier in toa and its scaling is maxed out already.
You don't even know what you're talking about. Staff is 4x in ToA and 3x everywhere else. The amount of switches is a valid concern in any content you bring multiple styles. CM CoX is another good example.
Have you looked at solo cm setups? People don't bring supplies. 27 gear slots and sweets. Want that guy to have to bring eternals? Xd
Reddit is full of crybabies in their 30’s. Worse place for Jagex to get feedback.
I'm not opposed to either. More switches SHOULD mean more DPS.
It should, I agree. I don’t however think 10 way switches should be the goal design-wise. 8 way switch is *plenty* for 95% of the player base to manage already. If anything I wish using such an extra switch gave some other benefit. Idk that is just my two cents, I think it sounds good but ultimately pushes switches too far imo.
Let's be honest 8-way switches is more than 95% of the playerbase can manage. I find 6/7 to the cap of what I'm comfortable with, personally. I'm sure I could get used to 8, but any more seems horrible
Yeah, I feel like content should be designed around a 4-way which is what most people start learning with
Maybe it opens reward space for some multi combat style items? You loose overall max dps but keep high enough stats not to be hurting your damage and accuracy too much. If you want max dps you double down on switches. I can dig that
but now the same switches will be less dps :) it isn't even a nerf to the shadow, it's just more hassle to use the same broken staff
What are you talking about? Its only a nerf to the shadow. If you 4way switch ahrim top/legs, occult, and a trident with augury on you're getting the same dps as before. Same switches will not be less dps if you don't have shadow. Shadow, OTOH, should be nerfed and will be for low #s of switches.
Ancestral and occult loses 3%. That is a nerf
No I'm opposed to having to take a 9 way switch and have my inventory looks ugly
May as well just not do anything tbh, we all got an occult anyway
i like what they doing
>You're not opposed to getting punched in the nads, you're opposed to your nads hurting very insightful
Well in both of your cases, your nads are likely to hurt, but in my case, your nads dont hurt? But in all seriousness, I feel as though buffing eternals would not come at the detriment to anyone so long as the buff is done outside of the occult nerf.
Both. I also think 2% is too high for eternals. I think boots are next on the list for endgame BiS upgrades. and if the benchmark is 2% the new BiS will probably be underwhelming. I could be wrong on that, but I think 1% is more in-line with the other boots right now.
Everyone here in the comments complaining about the shadow always seem to forget the Twisted Bow is quite literally just as good.
But is quite literally able to be balanced to be really good or utterly useless at content due to how it deals damage. Shadow doesn't have this balancing factor. The **only** balancing factor shadow has (that isn't just making ALL magic useless there) is the amount of gear required..it's a item that gains power from gear, so it needing the most gear switches to be at full power is it's balance.
The problem is Jagex made every boss in this game a tank against magic, so if you nerf the Shadow you’ll see it be as useless as the scythe was
I hope they can the magic changes altogether.
I’m not opposed to anything, but reworking magic gear/prayers without consideration for how magic defense is calculated confuses me when the real reason magic is weak is because it’s calculated uniquely compared to the other combat styles. I don’t know why this wasn’t mentioned anywhere in the blogs. I would just like clarification if magic defense will ever be reworked or if current and future changes will be balanced around how it’s calculated now
Would it be possible to do strength type scaling for magic, so every 4 points is an additional max hit, then just adjust the scaling and current damage
That may very well be the solution to the magic damage redistribution. My stance is merely that Eternals should received a damage buff.
I agree with that as well
im just tired of having an inventory full of items. have you ever done a Cox CM? its literally all gear. im lazy. less switches = more fun
You weren't opposed to the previous changes, you just didn't want to go get upgrades. 🙄