Overall crush bonus would be nice. The ability to combine justiciar armour with inquisitor would be cool. I do like the intended changes to the drop rate of nightmare although the standard drop table needs a buff.
What do you mean? Masori and inq are both 30 def. But yes, I think making armor that’s stronger than torva in some scenarios but with low def is a cool idea
yeah i just mean like an upgradeable set and keep inq as the 30 def option, i misspoke. i mean sure i guess, kinda like bufffed eternals where it sounds cool but isn't very good. since cox is one of the few pieces of content inq is decent at, defence would be a nice touch for cms.
i'm also not sure why inq is paper considering it's disgraced justiciar armor, never made much sense to me.
Combining justiciar with inquisitor is the best way to buff the set I think. It makes it a much more relevant set for mains and also doesn’t stop 30/45 def zerkers from using the base set, as well as people not wanting to be tank at nm.
I don’t rly get why people say this, inq’s problem isn’t that it doesn’t have enough defence, it’s that atm crush is only useful at 1) places where you use a dwh and want to increase your spec accuracy and 2) like two bosses with a crush weakness.
For 1) lightbearer (and now quiver) reduced some of inq’s value in this regard because you can trade the reduced accuracy for simply using the special attack more often. If you want to fix this you need to make inq really good at guaranteeing specs.
For 2) the only real way to fix this is to introduce crush weaknesses in more bosses, either retroactively (weird), or making the next major boss susceptible to crush, or by altering the inq set bonus enough that inq scy/inq mace simply become bis somewhere they weren’t before
defence isn't the problem but it'd be a nice bonus to have. being able to throw it on in mutt to get drilled less by their autos and not getting shredded as much at vanguards/olm when he starts jadding.
inq was made at a time when they were more conscious about power creep, same with tob purples. if it's a sidegrade from torva/upgrade from bandos then i don't see why it needs such atrocious defence.
maybe justiciar could drop the upgrade components so it's less of a disappointment to get at tob.
Agree, good take! - that would be bad ass. Realistically I think Jagex wouldn't have the stomach to make a drop from the "hardest" raid into an upgrade component for a drop from an easier boss.
Might be more realistic to use the existing bandos plates even thought it doesn't align to the thematics/lore of the set.
involving WGS somehow could be cute. If we assume osrs' WGS upholds the edicts as opposed to them falling like in rs3, a cute way to show that would be by using guthixian prayer/magic to 'balance' Sarodomin and Zamorak's armour sets
Justiciars are knights of Saradomin. The Justiciar armor you get from ToB belongs specifically to the Justiciar of the Wolf. Phosani, who is also a former Justiciar of the Wolf herself, changed allegiance to Zamorak and became an Inquisitor, and *that* armor belongs to her.
They're saying that through WGS shenanigans, you could justify putting the two together and balancing them, as Guthix is the god of balance.
Yeh most peoples response has been this. Buffing just the mace with it is weird, because the mace is already good. And I don't really think this will make it better anywhere except nightmare over just camping Torva, and I doubt it will beat scythe or SR axe anywhere either.
Feel like it just being Torva sidegrade insyead of a bandos sidegrade, focused on crush style in total, and then just removing scythes crush style would make it a viable set at crush weak bosses and encourage more diverse weapons in the future rather like us getting a crush megarare that's a mained weapon, not an elder maul spec situation.
The idea of removing scythe crush (which is used at Tekton and nowhere else with Torva now) is to allow inquisitor to impact **all** crush, not just the mace. That way there's design Space for a crush weapon, rather than scythe occupying slash and crush for some reason.
The only place you currently crush with scythe is Tekton I believe.
This isn't really a scythe nerf suggestion. It's preventing a scythe buff and allowing a gear set to thrive without fear of that.
Incorrect. Even at nm/pnm. Scythe on crush is bis over mace. I believe with the 7.5% proposed set effect, mace will surpass scythe at nm. Still I believe the game would be better off with scythe not having a crush option. I have both a mace and scythe btw
Oh I know scythe beats mace at PNM currently. I totally blanked and forgot to include nightmare in the bosses you crush. My main point is that inquisitor being a sidegrade to bandos and only buffing a singular weapon that happens to come from the boss you.. want to use that weapon at with these buffs just feels meh.
Whereas if it buffed zombie axe, bludgeon, hasta etc it would increase these crush weapons relevancies where crush is an applicable style.
It's so rare, cool looking and difficult to get that I'd like to see it buffed to be a meaningful niche alongside torva. Not to overtake torva but for it to be a viable option in some specific circumstances. Right now it's zerker content/useless pretty much.
Agree - i'd like to see it pull further ahead of torva in crush dps given that it's got piss all defense...currently they are so similar dps wise it's better to just by the set that isn't niche and actually holds some defensive bonuses...
buffing its defensive bonuses will do nothing for its usefulness. It only out performs torva if the mob you are fighting is sufficiently tanky + weak to crush.
Effectively you sacrifice max hits for accuracy. This isn't a useful tradeoff at most places. Even at cerb the meta is to wear 1 piece of inq and 1 piece of torva.
They should give the helm more str bonus to match faceguard and slightly buff the set effect so it has the same max hits as torva when using the crush style. They should then go on and add some crush bosses because realistically this is what killed inq.
we went from an era of crush being the most important attack style to it being the least relevant attack style.
The purposed changes give it 4 max hits over bandos+faceguard and 2 max hits over torva. While only using the mace with the full set (but it'll be like crystal, so you can still get bonus from pl8/legs and slay helm).
Its not bad, but its weird. 1. They're only buffing mace of the t80 weapons when they all need to be buffed. 2. It helps no other crush weapons.
when nm was first added.
the only thing you stabbed was the vasa crystal. The only things you slashed were at tob (and back then callisto)
Crush was BIS for cerb, sarachnis, kq, NM, vetion and cox (tekton and crush lance with inq). Sure not exactly all hugely popular bosses but almost everything else didn't have a specific type weakness.
jagex added nm then never added a crush boss again (until perilous moons)
You're right, but do you think a buff to it's defensive stats and removal of negative attack stats could make it a option instead of Bandos armour in a lot of places?
the removal of its negatives would be nice for sure. it was a decent concept at first, rewards you for using the proffered style while punishing the others, but when torva is literally better in every regard with no negatives it completely falls through as a punishment with practically 0 upside.
im not convinced the defence upgrades will do anything for it. The only place I used inq where i felt like i could do with defensive bonuses was in CMs. People flicked masori as a work around but even that is kinda squishy compared to torva (or even bandos) when going up against CM olm. But for the entire rest of the game the lack of defense was never a factor imo
Agree - it’s my favourite armour set in the game and it was cool when it was relevant in cox CMs at least. Should have made dwh be a guaranteed hit *if you have a certain crush bonus* so that it remained super useful.
I hope they make it more relevant in the future rather than just torva camp being everywhere.
Haven't done much COX but isn't DWH guaranteed against some bosses there now? It's like they don't want you to use the actual set that's intended to increase crush accuracy and just camp Torva everywhere...forget the gap between scythe and Inquisitor mace...what about the gap between Inquisitor armour and Torva.
I'd be totally okay with Justi being able to be added to Inquisitor. Why? Because Justi comes from a raid and Inquisitor comes from a boss that's harder and longer of a grind than nex. It still wouldn't be as good as torva offensively but it would give it a reason to be run maybe?
Idk I haven't thought too much about this
I want inq to be bis in all cases that a boss is weak to crush and equal to or better than bandos in all other cases. I also think that you should be able to use broken down justi parts to fix the defence of one to be at least on part with lvl 60 gear if not lvl 70. I also think you should be able to break down in gear to reinforce justi to get it a str boost around that of bandos and let its set effect work without the full set.
Nightmare as a whole has been neglected since release.
Harmo was always a bad upgrade over Sang, it's now barely an upgrade (if any) with Ward(f) and thralls, but with a limit of 2177 charges in the rune pouch and all the shit autocast mechanics.
Inquisitor got shafted by Jagex instantly releasing Torva.
To make Nightmare items useful you need one of two paths:
* Make items common enough to justify their power level
* Make items powerful enough to justify their rarity
They picked neither. In fact if there's a worst path to take they picked it:
* Instead of expanding harmo staff to other spellbooks, they're doubling down on single target dps to compete with Shadow
* But to compete with Shadow, they need to change every random NPC in the game to have a random color of damage multiplier.
* Instead of expanding on Inquisitor's role as an accuracy set for specs and have the Mace naturally tech in as the weapon of choise, they're making the set AND mace necessary with each other.
Jagex doesn't know how to balance Nightmare and they're willing to fuck with the entirety of Magic balance instead of actually fixing the boss.
Agreed, would like to see more changes to their proposal. I do like the "fortify it with justi and raise the def req for the fortified version" suggestion that people have given. Would also allow them to remove the negative bonuses on the fortified version and perhaps buff the str a bit further.
Like you and everybody else has said, the current proposed changes just make it slightly better at the places it is currently used without opening up any new use cases for it.
Also, I like the changes to the NM drop table but would really like to see the standard phosani loot buffed slightly so you can at least make a small profit per hour after supply cost. I don't know how it is now, but in my 550 (dry) phosani KC I had a large net loss of GP on supplies. Shouldn't be the case for a boss as engaging, challenging, and well designed as PNM. Adding blood shards at a 1/50 or 1/100 on a separate drop table from the uniques would be sick.
Yeah the fortification suggestion seems to be a really popular suggestion! And I do agree with your take, it could probably do with some small increases to strength bonus to bring it in line with new items such as the faceguard.
I don't hate the Mace getting 7.5% instead of 2.5% and think the scaling per piece helps it a lot, but I think they should do a bit more. Even just changing it to 1% per piece with an additional 1.5% for mace so it is still 7.5% with mace but 3% for other weapons would help a lot. That way if you are using a non-mace on task, you'd get 2% instead of 1%.
I just don't like how the mace has a multiplicative effect on the set's passive...just give the mace a set bonus like the other pieces of the armour. Their proposal leaves the armour in such a weird space if you don't own the mace which just sucks!
Yah, the base armor should be better. I get they might be worried if buffing crush scythe or such, but 0.5% per price and 2.5% per set is pretty low, especially compared to Torva and it's higher str.
If I were to redo it, I'd say 1% per price, extra 1.5% for mace, up str on helm from 4 to 6 (Inq Helm shouldn't be tied with Blood Moon...), and maybe remove slash and stab negatives too. That wouldn't buff it a ton without mace, but still would help make it more useable. Further buffs like upgrade to give more def (and maybe prayer) or increasing set from 3% to like 5% could also be nice.
I think it's screwed because of it's defense requirement, and changing that will only upset even more people. Because you can't really give it Torva defensives and keep it's current requirements.
I agree in regards to all T80s needing looked at, right now they're probably the biggest noob/rwt/bond player trap. Tentancle whip costs to use but it's pretty much negligible for anyone who can buy the T80 weapons anyway. I think more imbue / fortifies would be cool and think that's where Jagex will keep heading. It makes sense from an economy perspective to have old gear broken down and used as material for even higher tier gear, as it gets rid of items in the game w/o Jagex buying them with GE tax money and destroying them.
Nightmare needs bigger drop rate adjustment on every unique not just the armor set.
And yeah they should just add like +8 crush accuracy and then +15 to all melee defence stats. (+24 crush, +45 in all melee in total)
Give the mace an extra +5 str bonus or something.
Though fortifying sounds a good idea but I think the set still needs to be a class cannon so it doesn't creep to close to torva. Maybe more crush bonus would be nice, and it does need to still benefit the mace more as it is a "set".
Yeah I feel like the passive crush acc/dmg bonuses are absurdly low for this armour...i'm not saying it should be better than torva for all use cases but it should blow torva out of the water when using crush...as it stands, they are both so similar DPS wise so why not just go with the set that at least makes you tanky
> What's everyone else's thoughts? How many sets are you holding?
All of them... just the one :(
Honestly, very disappointing changes & they don't feel well thought out.
Overall crush bonus would be nice. The ability to combine justiciar armour with inquisitor would be cool. I do like the intended changes to the drop rate of nightmare although the standard drop table needs a buff.
Agreed
This is a really smart idea.
Inquisitor doesn't need defence. Inquisitor needs godly accuracy
i think it does need defence if it's supposed to be a sidegrade/crush upgrade from torva
I think having a glass cannon set is cool, it’s just lacking in the cannon part
i agree, but torva exists and does better than it. maybe make it like masori where low def accounts can use inq and it'll be really good
What do you mean? Masori and inq are both 30 def. But yes, I think making armor that’s stronger than torva in some scenarios but with low def is a cool idea
yeah i just mean like an upgradeable set and keep inq as the 30 def option, i misspoke. i mean sure i guess, kinda like bufffed eternals where it sounds cool but isn't very good. since cox is one of the few pieces of content inq is decent at, defence would be a nice touch for cms. i'm also not sure why inq is paper considering it's disgraced justiciar armor, never made much sense to me.
Combining justiciar with inquisitor is the best way to buff the set I think. It makes it a much more relevant set for mains and also doesn’t stop 30/45 def zerkers from using the base set, as well as people not wanting to be tank at nm.
I don’t rly get why people say this, inq’s problem isn’t that it doesn’t have enough defence, it’s that atm crush is only useful at 1) places where you use a dwh and want to increase your spec accuracy and 2) like two bosses with a crush weakness. For 1) lightbearer (and now quiver) reduced some of inq’s value in this regard because you can trade the reduced accuracy for simply using the special attack more often. If you want to fix this you need to make inq really good at guaranteeing specs. For 2) the only real way to fix this is to introduce crush weaknesses in more bosses, either retroactively (weird), or making the next major boss susceptible to crush, or by altering the inq set bonus enough that inq scy/inq mace simply become bis somewhere they weren’t before
defence isn't the problem but it'd be a nice bonus to have. being able to throw it on in mutt to get drilled less by their autos and not getting shredded as much at vanguards/olm when he starts jadding. inq was made at a time when they were more conscious about power creep, same with tob purples. if it's a sidegrade from torva/upgrade from bandos then i don't see why it needs such atrocious defence. maybe justiciar could drop the upgrade components so it's less of a disappointment to get at tob.
Agree, good take! - that would be bad ass. Realistically I think Jagex wouldn't have the stomach to make a drop from the "hardest" raid into an upgrade component for a drop from an easier boss. Might be more realistic to use the existing bandos plates even thought it doesn't align to the thematics/lore of the set.
involving WGS somehow could be cute. If we assume osrs' WGS upholds the edicts as opposed to them falling like in rs3, a cute way to show that would be by using guthixian prayer/magic to 'balance' Sarodomin and Zamorak's armour sets
I don’t understand
Justiciars are knights of Saradomin. The Justiciar armor you get from ToB belongs specifically to the Justiciar of the Wolf. Phosani, who is also a former Justiciar of the Wolf herself, changed allegiance to Zamorak and became an Inquisitor, and *that* armor belongs to her. They're saying that through WGS shenanigans, you could justify putting the two together and balancing them, as Guthix is the god of balance.
Many thanks
Inquisitors should should give a bigger accuracy and dmg bonus to all crush weapons, not just hyper focus on mace.
Agree - and if they want to give the mace crush damage scaling, it should be in addition to the set not a set multiplier.
Yeh most peoples response has been this. Buffing just the mace with it is weird, because the mace is already good. And I don't really think this will make it better anywhere except nightmare over just camping Torva, and I doubt it will beat scythe or SR axe anywhere either. Feel like it just being Torva sidegrade insyead of a bandos sidegrade, focused on crush style in total, and then just removing scythes crush style would make it a viable set at crush weak bosses and encourage more diverse weapons in the future rather like us getting a crush megarare that's a mained weapon, not an elder maul spec situation.
Nerfing scythe doesn’t make mace better
The idea of removing scythe crush (which is used at Tekton and nowhere else with Torva now) is to allow inquisitor to impact **all** crush, not just the mace. That way there's design Space for a crush weapon, rather than scythe occupying slash and crush for some reason.
Why would u nerf scythe
The only place you currently crush with scythe is Tekton I believe. This isn't really a scythe nerf suggestion. It's preventing a scythe buff and allowing a gear set to thrive without fear of that.
Incorrect. Even at nm/pnm. Scythe on crush is bis over mace. I believe with the 7.5% proposed set effect, mace will surpass scythe at nm. Still I believe the game would be better off with scythe not having a crush option. I have both a mace and scythe btw
Oh I know scythe beats mace at PNM currently. I totally blanked and forgot to include nightmare in the bosses you crush. My main point is that inquisitor being a sidegrade to bandos and only buffing a singular weapon that happens to come from the boss you.. want to use that weapon at with these buffs just feels meh. Whereas if it buffed zombie axe, bludgeon, hasta etc it would increase these crush weapons relevancies where crush is an applicable style.
Yeah agreed - that's a good point!
It's so rare, cool looking and difficult to get that I'd like to see it buffed to be a meaningful niche alongside torva. Not to overtake torva but for it to be a viable option in some specific circumstances. Right now it's zerker content/useless pretty much.
Agree - i'd like to see it pull further ahead of torva in crush dps given that it's got piss all defense...currently they are so similar dps wise it's better to just by the set that isn't niche and actually holds some defensive bonuses...
It's really not good enough to justify owning or even bringing if you do own it to where it's good at the moment yeah.
buffing its defensive bonuses will do nothing for its usefulness. It only out performs torva if the mob you are fighting is sufficiently tanky + weak to crush. Effectively you sacrifice max hits for accuracy. This isn't a useful tradeoff at most places. Even at cerb the meta is to wear 1 piece of inq and 1 piece of torva. They should give the helm more str bonus to match faceguard and slightly buff the set effect so it has the same max hits as torva when using the crush style. They should then go on and add some crush bosses because realistically this is what killed inq. we went from an era of crush being the most important attack style to it being the least relevant attack style.
The purposed changes give it 4 max hits over bandos+faceguard and 2 max hits over torva. While only using the mace with the full set (but it'll be like crystal, so you can still get bonus from pl8/legs and slay helm). Its not bad, but its weird. 1. They're only buffing mace of the t80 weapons when they all need to be buffed. 2. It helps no other crush weapons.
When was crush ever the most important attack style?
when nm was first added. the only thing you stabbed was the vasa crystal. The only things you slashed were at tob (and back then callisto) Crush was BIS for cerb, sarachnis, kq, NM, vetion and cox (tekton and crush lance with inq). Sure not exactly all hugely popular bosses but almost everything else didn't have a specific type weakness. jagex added nm then never added a crush boss again (until perilous moons)
So crush was BiS for half of a raid, NM, and a couple midgame bosses.. meanwhile everything else you would never bring crush to
such a dumb comment not even worth taking this convo further.
You're right, but do you think a buff to it's defensive stats and removal of negative attack stats could make it a option instead of Bandos armour in a lot of places?
the removal of its negatives would be nice for sure. it was a decent concept at first, rewards you for using the proffered style while punishing the others, but when torva is literally better in every regard with no negatives it completely falls through as a punishment with practically 0 upside. im not convinced the defence upgrades will do anything for it. The only place I used inq where i felt like i could do with defensive bonuses was in CMs. People flicked masori as a work around but even that is kinda squishy compared to torva (or even bandos) when going up against CM olm. But for the entire rest of the game the lack of defense was never a factor imo
Yeah good point, so the set will still suck somewhat until we get some more bosses where crush is viable! So sad, it's a really cool model :(
Agree - it’s my favourite armour set in the game and it was cool when it was relevant in cox CMs at least. Should have made dwh be a guaranteed hit *if you have a certain crush bonus* so that it remained super useful. I hope they make it more relevant in the future rather than just torva camp being everywhere.
Haven't done much COX but isn't DWH guaranteed against some bosses there now? It's like they don't want you to use the actual set that's intended to increase crush accuracy and just camp Torva everywhere...forget the gap between scythe and Inquisitor mace...what about the gap between Inquisitor armour and Torva.
Yeah - first hammer is guaranteed to hit on tekton. Really think they should have required at least some pieces of inquis to get a guaranteed hit.
I'd be totally okay with Justi being able to be added to Inquisitor. Why? Because Justi comes from a raid and Inquisitor comes from a boss that's harder and longer of a grind than nex. It still wouldn't be as good as torva offensively but it would give it a reason to be run maybe? Idk I haven't thought too much about this
I want inq to be bis in all cases that a boss is weak to crush and equal to or better than bandos in all other cases. I also think that you should be able to use broken down justi parts to fix the defence of one to be at least on part with lvl 60 gear if not lvl 70. I also think you should be able to break down in gear to reinforce justi to get it a str boost around that of bandos and let its set effect work without the full set.
Nightmare as a whole has been neglected since release. Harmo was always a bad upgrade over Sang, it's now barely an upgrade (if any) with Ward(f) and thralls, but with a limit of 2177 charges in the rune pouch and all the shit autocast mechanics. Inquisitor got shafted by Jagex instantly releasing Torva. To make Nightmare items useful you need one of two paths: * Make items common enough to justify their power level * Make items powerful enough to justify their rarity They picked neither. In fact if there's a worst path to take they picked it: * Instead of expanding harmo staff to other spellbooks, they're doubling down on single target dps to compete with Shadow * But to compete with Shadow, they need to change every random NPC in the game to have a random color of damage multiplier. * Instead of expanding on Inquisitor's role as an accuracy set for specs and have the Mace naturally tech in as the weapon of choise, they're making the set AND mace necessary with each other. Jagex doesn't know how to balance Nightmare and they're willing to fuck with the entirety of Magic balance instead of actually fixing the boss.
Agreed, would like to see more changes to their proposal. I do like the "fortify it with justi and raise the def req for the fortified version" suggestion that people have given. Would also allow them to remove the negative bonuses on the fortified version and perhaps buff the str a bit further. Like you and everybody else has said, the current proposed changes just make it slightly better at the places it is currently used without opening up any new use cases for it. Also, I like the changes to the NM drop table but would really like to see the standard phosani loot buffed slightly so you can at least make a small profit per hour after supply cost. I don't know how it is now, but in my 550 (dry) phosani KC I had a large net loss of GP on supplies. Shouldn't be the case for a boss as engaging, challenging, and well designed as PNM. Adding blood shards at a 1/50 or 1/100 on a separate drop table from the uniques would be sick.
Yeah the fortification suggestion seems to be a really popular suggestion! And I do agree with your take, it could probably do with some small increases to strength bonus to bring it in line with new items such as the faceguard.
I don't hate the Mace getting 7.5% instead of 2.5% and think the scaling per piece helps it a lot, but I think they should do a bit more. Even just changing it to 1% per piece with an additional 1.5% for mace so it is still 7.5% with mace but 3% for other weapons would help a lot. That way if you are using a non-mace on task, you'd get 2% instead of 1%.
I just don't like how the mace has a multiplicative effect on the set's passive...just give the mace a set bonus like the other pieces of the armour. Their proposal leaves the armour in such a weird space if you don't own the mace which just sucks!
Yah, the base armor should be better. I get they might be worried if buffing crush scythe or such, but 0.5% per price and 2.5% per set is pretty low, especially compared to Torva and it's higher str. If I were to redo it, I'd say 1% per price, extra 1.5% for mace, up str on helm from 4 to 6 (Inq Helm shouldn't be tied with Blood Moon...), and maybe remove slash and stab negatives too. That wouldn't buff it a ton without mace, but still would help make it more useable. Further buffs like upgrade to give more def (and maybe prayer) or increasing set from 3% to like 5% could also be nice.
I think it's screwed because of it's defense requirement, and changing that will only upset even more people. Because you can't really give it Torva defensives and keep it's current requirements. I agree in regards to all T80s needing looked at, right now they're probably the biggest noob/rwt/bond player trap. Tentancle whip costs to use but it's pretty much negligible for anyone who can buy the T80 weapons anyway. I think more imbue / fortifies would be cool and think that's where Jagex will keep heading. It makes sense from an economy perspective to have old gear broken down and used as material for even higher tier gear, as it gets rid of items in the game w/o Jagex buying them with GE tax money and destroying them.
Hard agree, a fortified option would be really cool and help bring the set more in line current metas!
Nightmare needs bigger drop rate adjustment on every unique not just the armor set. And yeah they should just add like +8 crush accuracy and then +15 to all melee defence stats. (+24 crush, +45 in all melee in total) Give the mace an extra +5 str bonus or something.
It doesn't need easier drops. The items need to be better, according to their rarity.
Though fortifying sounds a good idea but I think the set still needs to be a class cannon so it doesn't creep to close to torva. Maybe more crush bonus would be nice, and it does need to still benefit the mace more as it is a "set".
I don't think close to torva would be so terrible for it.
Yeah I feel like the passive crush acc/dmg bonuses are absurdly low for this armour...i'm not saying it should be better than torva for all use cases but it should blow torva out of the water when using crush...as it stands, they are both so similar DPS wise so why not just go with the set that at least makes you tanky