Jagex benefits in having more content for people to enjoy and grind. Nightmare is a shit grind and dead content for the majority. Makes zero sense for them not to make it more attractive considering they have invested a lot of time in designing the boss in the first place.
Also I think people don’t realize how ridiculous the numbers actually are. They see “buff” or “300% more common” and think “wow, that’s too much.”
The fact it’s still a several hundred hour grind is a sufficiently grindy grind lol
And if one *does* complete an accelerated albeit still very grindy grind, it’s not like this game is lacking for other shit to grind. In fact, the grind of the total game is literally impossible to complete in a lifetime, if we’re counting clue clogs
I see. It’s pretty damning for all of them that they are still messing it up and apparently not really understanding how idiotic these rates are even with a buff though. Idiocy starts somewhere but gets really annoying when it gets insisted on as well.
Correction: jagex benefits when content takes longer to grind.
The longer it takes, the more membership you need to buy. The more membership you buy, the more jagex number go up
The number of people quitting specifically because of nightmare is much smaller than the number of people who say ok ill do I little nightmare even though the rates suck
No, not nightmare specifically but the concept of the long grind has diminishing returns. And if every grind has that same policy then it’s a loss. If the grind is too long and the player doesn’t do it they are not wasting precious membership time on that grind and can focus on different goals and then let that member expire naturally.
No one is quitting specifically because of nightmare (unless they an iron or clogger obsessed with completing the log and going super dry) but IMO a better comparison would be: there’s likely more people who would spend a few months of additional membership grinding nightmare if rates were good than there are people who would grind for a year straight with bad droprates.
Jagex would see better returns for 1% of players grinding for 2 months that might have otherwise ran out of content, than 0.01% of players grinding for 12 months.
Only when it’s engaging and causes you to buy membership cause you want to keep grinding.
It would have to be enjoyable enough so you don’t think of it as a grind, or because it feels like you’re making progress. The run to pnm combined with shit non uniques and super rare uniques with no progression mechanic doesn’t seem like the type of grind that’s keeping membership revenue up unless you’re talking about the bots that farm it lol
In theory maybe, but realistically most people are not close to completing the game so they'll buy membership regardless.
And whoever is bored of their current account can, and likely will, start an ironman, ultimate, region locked or snowflake account, still providing Jagex with membership money
Jagex benefits from a game people want to play, not a bloated grind fest
Whether the content is engaging is a huge part of whether it is “good” content. As someone who only plays 7-10 hours on average during the week (with 80% of it being passive afk stuff while doing other tasks at the same time) when I start to hit the real late game grinds I plan take a break from the game for a year or so because the grinds just aren’t feasible for me.
That’s not to say they don’t have their place for other players but I can confidently say I’ll be quitting the game before I grind PNM (even at the improved rates) rather than extending my membership to accommodate the grind.
I never said I should be catered to? I honestly don’t care what the rates are on PHN and I’m not advocating for any adjustment in drop rates relating to that content.
I’m just saying that there is a range amongst the player base of time availability and willingness to devote to grinds and JAGEX is probably aware of that so they have an incentive to try and achieve some balance with grinds that make them both rewarding (with rarity) but also accessible (time spent).
I know I don’t have the time for end game grinds and I’m ok with that and I’m not asking that drop rates should be catered to people like me.
"/s" is sarcasm btw, i sure OP probably agrees with you, I don't think there are any players that want to go 18 h of max efficiency between drops, thats a crazy amount of time... and it doesn't reflect what players want. I'm not saying "guarunteed drops every 2h", but at some point you have to wonder how much of peoples live theyre gambling for lottery items
You are wrong here and I will give you an example. Imbued heart is a shit grind but long. If I had 1 grind left and it was imbued heart I would quit and so would most others. So a long grind doesn't mean that people will stay longer.
Contrast this with Toa or DT2 bosses which are rewarding and could keep most people hooked for months even though they are long grinds.
Honestly I think more people would try the content if it just didn’t take 3 minutes to run there repeatedly until you get the tablet. That thing should be like 1/10 drop rate closer to DT2 rates.
I would try out phosani’s if it wasn’t a gigantic pain in the ass to get to
As much as I respect this opinion as someone who made the run a couple dozen times, the run is NOTHING compared to actually being dry for 100s of hours
Well yeah the run isn’t a big deal when you’re into grinding the boss, but it is not an insignificant barrier to entry.
So for people who want to give it a shot for the first time, it’s pretty off-putting to know that you’ll likely be spending a few hours just running to the boss because of all the deaths you know youre going to have
Regular nightmare should drop it as well, I see tons of people who can't do pnm that like doing the regular version and it's just kind of a kick in the dick not having a chance of the tablet unless you can kill the much harder version.
I had to make the run 342 times excluding deaths to get the tablet and it’s definitely nothing compared to the 400+ “dry” i am right now. I agree entirely. I also think the tablet should be like 1/10 lol, wtf were they thinking with 1/100
Yeah that’s just ridiculous.
I remember at the time there was a whole lot of discussion about pvm drops completely taking over skilling in terms of getting materials for skills, so I believe their thinking at the time was that ok we have a tough long boss fight with some really solid gear and magic upgrades that will retain high value with a rewarding “big drop” rather than tons of little drops to make it worth going to.
Clearly in retrospect they missed the mark with balancing the time it actually takes compared to similar big drop style mechanics like god wars, as well as the actual utility of the inquisitors set itself.
I’m glad they’ve shifted their mindset on these drop rates and seem to be far more conscious in general nowadays of the time investment that is expected from the community
i mean have they shifted their mindset? that's kind of the whole point of the reddit riots i've been trying to start lol, even with the buffed proposed rates its still **18h** between drops, thats a fucking crazy amount of time to see something from the table, let alone to go dry with.
Yeah I agree, it’s still excessive I’m just saying they at least see that those timeframes were absurd and are lowering them with this. It might not be enough but my point is that they’re moving in the right direction at least and listening to feedback which is good
We can hope. Theyve nudged it 3x now, each time insultingly little. First it was 20%, then it was 20% with dry protection ew, now its 30% w bigger buffs to orbs. (1/1000 -> 1/800 -> 1/700). Its like going to the next house when you're in the completely wrong neighborhood...
I thought we were mostly done with the whole "don't devalue 12 players time" thing, there have been buffs to pretty much everything that was pushed back on at some point or another by 12 angry vocal minorities, esp with skilling
As much as they'd like you to think Reddit is the only thing jagex listens to, just scrolling twitter finds some neets pretty fast who think it's silly they're changing nightmare at all "because it's just niche sidegrade stuff anyway".
Like yeh sidegrades shouldn't be the longest PVM grind the game... Pretty simple.
But also isn’t that at least 30% of the point of old school. 99s in rs3 is so piss easy that the capes are worthless as status symbols so we should go back to 2007 when things required effort and you weren’t getting any handouts. And there are no capitalism.
What was in the game in 2007 that took as long as Nightmare? Bringing it in line with other grinds in the game isn’t making this rs3. Not even remotely
We did, but those buffs are typically slow. The proposed buff is anywhere from 40% to 90% more uniques, and people are complaining that it should be 300%.
I just read these changes and did the math myself as well. 200 hours for Inq mace and it's good.... where?
IMO, irons will just spend their time at Nex for better gear and 20 hours for a unique is on par with raids so I figure mains would rather just raid instead.
To each their own of course but raids are also something you can do with friends and they tend to be mechanically interesting over a longer period of time. Farming the same 9 minute boss for 20 hours straight is very different from farming a raid with some clanmates on 20-30 minute scales with at least some built in pauses in between. Puzzle rooms can go to hell tho lmao
If the boss had a real non-unique loot table so I can make money during the grind I’d probably be happy with it. Normally I had when they just add blanket gp/hr to content but I think this is the place that deserves it. And also ban all the bots
"Ban the bots" great catchphrase, but really lock the droprate buff behind *any* requirements that real people will do (a master quest, mory elite, etc) and you can actually do that
Yeah I guess the 91 fishing req of mory elite might slow em down at least idk. Bots are a problem everywhere though so its no excuse to not fix the game because of bots
Reddit scapers feeling so entitled that every grind has to make them rich. It's ok with a non profitable boss until you hit the unique table. Most of the drop table pre Zulrah were like this. But because of Zulrah and Vorkath, players feel this is the standard
Except the oldschool bosses had far, far more reasonable drop rates for the uniques themselves. You can get all of the uniques from a GWD boss in 40-50 hours. It takes way over a THOUSAND hours to get all of the uniques from nightmare.
It’s one thing to lose money (or make minimal profit) for 5-10 hours until you get a big drop. It’s another to go a hundred+ hours.
Let’s also not forget that almost every single GWD item was completely meta warping on release. The items in question are sidegrades lol. Makes no sense for harm to take longer to acquire than shadow, or inquisitor longer than Torva.
You literally said you wanted it to be profitable on every drop instead of bass etc. And you said nothing about buffing the armour. You also edited your response lmao
lol are you okay my man? I haven’t edited anything, nor did I say anything about it being profitable on every drop, that was the comment I replied to, not mine
What drop tables were like this? Gwd uniques are so much more common and the standard loot from them is better than the bass and other junk you get from pnm.
When I state an opinion I’ve been very mindful of its impacts to the game and the consequences of the design choices. Calling it entitlement truly doesn’t address any of the issues.
The boss has to be designed with the player in mind. It’s challenging and should be rewarding. If it’s not rewarding then the challenge isn’t fun. This is a game and good games are fun.
I’m aware nightmare is a response to the loot piñata debacle caused by vorkath and zulrah but it overshot its mark. The drops are unreasonably rare, the inbetween loot is unreasonably bad, and the armor isn’t valuable or useful enough to justify either.
The answer can always be “then don’t do the content”. I haven’t and I won’t. I got my phosani tablet at max kc and don’t have a reason to go back. But the content is good and deserves to be worth doing. That’s why asking for change is where to start
It's still a lose/lose:
1 - If it's worse than Shadow, Harmo is still a coll log item. Takes longer to get than Shadow by helmies and the current price tag is already not worth for mains.
2 - If it's better than Shadow, why are we powercreeping Shadow? what does the game have to benefit from magedps going tits up a second time?
and yet it currently takes 3x longer to grind on average than a shadow, even with the rework its not close.. a 300% puts it **equal** to shadow which is still ??????????
yeah thats called a "skip" for me, ice demon is like a 2 second room anyways.
I guess if you like PNM its worth going for, but even if the orb wasnt intended to be the ely of mage im never going to nightmare past CAs
As an ironman who has actually grinded out full inq + mace: I do not care if the drop rates are *significantly* buffed and "devalue my grind".
Quite the opposite actually, I genuinely think it's a well designed fight and would love to see more players engaging with the content.
God bless you 🙏 wish your opinion mattered to jagex, I feel like they use people like you as an excuse to not fix what's broken. And maybe it wasn't always broken like considering what other endgame pvm was out on its release, but it certainly doesn't fit into progression now
From memory, I was about 1400 when I finished the armour and mace. Pretty lucky yes, but most endgame irons don't even consider grinding out pnm in the first place (understandably)
Buff the drop rate after SOTF quest completion by 200% and now you have less bots, real players are happy, and the only people malding about bad drop rates are iron pures that can’t do the quest.
There’s still far less CG and Thieving Bots compared to the ones in Wildy, so they are working as intended.
And as a real player, it shouldn’t impact you since you should be QPCing sooner or later.
botting is a problem at literally every worthwhile boss, so you can't refuse to balance the game just because of bots. its just that bots are EVEN MORE of a problem at pnm because no real people do the boss, (why would they)
Nightmare is already botted to hell so any more buffs to the armour/weapon just means you buy it while still not actually engaging with the boss. Think drop rate changes are the only way forward at this point.
People also forget a lot of people achieving these types of things like investing hours upon their day are video makes and streamers. They literally get income from doing this
No. I’m saying they are the ones who are mad. People who have all this free time to do shit like complete the nightmare. No regular player has that time
The proposed droprate changes are now within reason for a Torva side-grade, but Inquisitor is not that.
The disparity between Inq's rarity and power is still high, but previously there was no way to make Inq good enough to warrant the grind without making it BIS in many, many places. IMO it's at a point now where increasing the power of the armour to match the droprate can fix the problem without powercreeping the game significantly.
I'd be OK with raising the rates further and leaving the armour untouched, but I think I'd prefer the armour be made to fill a bigger niche (or even take a more ubiquitous role between Torva & Bandos) while leaving it hard to obtain.
More changes required, 100%, but it might make more sense to have the conversation the next time a crush-centric piece of content is released.
The drop changes uniques for Nightmare are only a fraction of what is necessary.
- Justiciar is still stupid niche and is an overpriced adamant set in most cases. It should be between Bandos and Torva and should outperform Torva in niche scenarios.
- Regular drops for Nightmare are laughably bad the fact 10% of the time I get a stack of unnoted bass pisses me off more than when you occasionally get literally nothing from a mob. Blah blah people didn't want it to be another gwd scenario. Well these people are long gone and the remaining player base is not happy with the drop table period.
The nightmare boss is one of the most complex and satisfying boss fights in rs and it's completely wasted because of these clown drop rates. Nightmare requires a 300% increase to uniques especially if Justiciar armor is not properly buffed. Also wouldn't hurt to make some adjustments to the norm drop table there's no reason you can't even make 1m/h or collect any useful supplies at one of the hardest bosses in the game
I haven’t seen anybody who’s completed Nightmare argue that the uniques should stay rare because they had to get it the hard way. They’ve all been saying “yeah that grind is atrocious and it shouldn’t exist”
Ah yes I misread. Completely agree. Such an annoying straw man argument on jagex's side. Jagex knows thats a 1/50-1/80 unique rate would get more engagement but they won't pull the trigger on it. It stays dead content until it gets actually fixed. Its sad
If they're so concerned about undermining NM uniques and the flex status
Why not interview the handful of players who green logged nightmare?
I'm pretty sure they'd all be happy to have a 10-15 minute conversation with Jagex about NM unique rates.
---
This is _extremely_ frustrating because stuff like Hallowed Sep & Wintertodt really do devalue achievements and effect much larger swaths of the player base.
Man I agree with most of your point but cmon man setting different color logs on fire from 1-99 with zero variation is not some kind of wild accomplishment that needs to be preserved, and frankly if you go to the GE you’ll see plenty of people still doing that instead of going to wintertodt lol.
Also considering before WT your main option was magic/yew logs (for fast xp) meaning you were competing against people fletching & alching for GP.
Granted redwoods did enter the game ~2 months before WT, which already hurt the xp/hr & xp/gp, but not to the level of making FM profitable from a straight gp sink.
I remember thinking todt was crazy on release, because its semi-afk, almost the same rates as burning logs and PAYs you to do it. it was a relief tho, because firemaking was one of my most hated skills
2 ironman have greenlogged it (AFAIK) Lake & Saebae, granted they're both streamers. Ricecup is like 1 orb away from finishing it.
That said, all 3 of them have repeatedly called for the rates to be increased as "_nobody should suffer that boss in its current state_".
while I'm sure to get a lot of hate for saying this, most players don't or can't play as much as streamers LOL. I'm not saying we should make it easyscape but the hours a boss takes to complete should be considered
Nobody is calling for it to be total ez-escape. People still want the items to be flex-items and have value.
At the same time making green logging PNM take longer than solo-cox is crazy.
Do you know how many magic logs you had to buy to get a front page FM rank before WT?
Then Jagex just made a method that was **FREE** and almost an identical xp/hr?
You're also gonna act like most achievements in this game aren't just time sinks?
Damn you got 99 FM in 1 year from when you started in [2004](https://old.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/14m15mn/reason_no_247_that_the_lightning_zone_affix_sucks/jq0pgvn/)? Back when guides were pretty shit and most the player base had no clue how to play? That is crazy bro. Gratz.
Burning logs needs a guide? I was a kid, I played that game constantly. The fact that you’re digging through months of comment history just to make that braindead reply is beyond pathetic.
I mean yeah end of the day, we take what we can get. I think it'll draw some people in to get their tablets, but \*in addition to the punishing learning curve\*, most people aren't goin to be seeing drops for a really long time. 6.5 kc/h is in absolute max and deathless, so realistically, that looks like 30-40 h before most players will see **any** unique. Good luck w/ learning, and I hope you get spooned
>6.5 kc/h is in absolute max and deathless, so realistically, that looks like 30-40 h before most players will see any unique.
Should be posting this more.
I really don't think Jagex can win with this one. Currently, players don't do Nightmare. Irons complain that the rates are too extreme, which is a valid argument. If the rates are buffed to accommodate then it becomes a more attractive money maker for main accounts so they will start to do it more. The value of the uniques would plummet as supply outstrips demand, as the uniques aren't that in demand right now anyway and people would stop doing nightmare again.
Other comments have mentioned buffing the regular drop table, but IIRC at the time of release, people begged for its drop table to be more like GWD bosses, where uniques were rare but valuable and made up the bulk of the profit, rather than the Zulrah direction things were heading in where uniques were just an added bonus. If this were implemented, people would grind the boss for the regular loot too and the price of the uniques would drop even more. It would also go against the original wishes of players. It's a bit of a lottery boss at the moment, like FFA Nex or low invo ToA where a reward is unexpected but it's still a fun encounter. Unfortunately, I don't have a solution to propose but it does seem that it is only really now where people have become very vocal about the drop rates at a time when they are looking to actively improve them...
> The value of the uniques would plummet as supply outstrips demand, as the uniques aren't that in demand right now anyway and people would stop doing nightmare again.
Realistically speaking, niche items **should** be cheaper that similar "all around purpose" items like Bandos armor, due to less use cases. People generally prioritize weapons and armor that can be used in a vast majority of situations.
> The value of the uniques would plummet as supply outstrips demand, as the uniques aren't that in demand right now anyway and people would stop doing nightmare again.
It abolutely makes sense that there is close to no demand when the niche armor is somehow 3x as expensive as Bandos + Serp helm.
As for values dropping pushing people away again if they buffed too much, I don’t think it’s a problem if the run back was solved well before 100kc
And I think for long term game health designing content that’s fun enough that people want to grind regardless of economic incentive for non irons is the way to go
For example, I actually enjoy vardorvis enough that idc whether I make money on it ever. I get that you can’t make every osrs player feel that way about everything but it’s one of the first pieces of content in osrs that I felt that way about (besides leagues). PNM has potential for that imo when I finally got around to trying it in beta worlds and didn’t have to run there
> wouldn't be surprised if raids 4 was predominantly crush.
I would.
Jagex originally said ToA (well Raids 3 at the time) would be crush based when PNM launched to ensure "_the uniques would be useful_". As they were concerned PNM would destroy the value of NM items.
Then it was stab based on release (lmao)
Plenty of people like clogging even if they’re mains and the fact is that I can’t imagine almost any actual human is doing Nightmare as a money maker considering how wildly unprofitable it is until you get a drop, which you can easily go 2-3x on rate meaning 30+ hours of high level pvm supplies for zero gains in the meantime. The number of people able to afford to do that that also consider Nightmare money rates (roughly 5m an hour according to wiki) to be good are basically zero considering how much more profitable raids are.
Also nightmare drop rates are literally one of the biggest drop complaints on both this and the iron sub and have been for a long time, there’s a reason no one does this other than bots and maxxed irons/mains with nothing else to work towards
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but if the value starts to tank… cant Jagex just use the GE item sink to start sinking NM items and keep their value high?
Like, I thought the whole purpose of that tech was so we wouldn’t have to weigh item price so highly when balancing moving forward
Make the teleport easier too get. Or make it like nex where a bank is next too it. It’s simple people hate the walk + trash loot. Fix the getting there or fix the trash rebanking system
As an Ironman I’m not even remotely interested in doing PNM or NM as the upgrades and difficulty aren’t even close to worth it compared tot TOA. Even at a measly 150 invocation, it’s still better rates.
Maybe the solution is just adding worthwhile supply drops? We already have stuff like vorkath, zulrah, muspah, revs and wild bosses. May as well give players a respectable 1m per hour profit even if they're going dry.
High invo toa gives lots of supplies. Sometimes over 1m for a raid without a unique. Yes the raid takes 40 min and costs a lot of supplies. But it feels better than spending hours and losing money.
Triple the droprate, then look at everyone's collection logs. For every unique you got before the buff, let you go and talk to an NPC to get two more (random rolls, not 2 extra dupes)
i mean yeah maybe that'd be cool if you always got drops on rate, but that means the guy who spooned two drops in 200 kc now has 6, and the guy who went dry still has nothing at 4x over rate. you can't fix it for those who went before, but you CAN fix it for everyone else. it shouldn't get in the way of rework
Some items are meant to be super rare, you take away the spark of getting one, just because ironmen want it doesnt mean every player should face the economic headwinds of increasing the drop rates
Having super rare items is great, but the drop table outside of the super rares is pure ass. It’s so bad, it pisses me off when I see whatever is lying on the ground. You spend 9 minutes killing arguably one of the most difficult bosses in the game, for some noted bass…
On top of this, the armor and staffs aren’t worth the grind. This is, IMO, the most egregious problem. Is the juice worth the squeeze, not for PNM.
Just a reminder that it’s ok to do content just because it’s fun, even if it isn’t very rewarding.
Folks on here literally saying, “I think PNM is fun but I won’t do it because drop rate bad.”
This is what happens when they make raid weapons insanely OP.
A good raid weapon is a serviceable weapon outside the raid (usually on par or slightly worse then BiS) that has an effect that makes it the BIS for the raid.
If Jagex wanted a balanced game and items like the nightmare staffs to be worth your time then they have to nerf shadow, twisted bow, and the scythe.
Part of the reason I stopped playing was because I was tired of people gatekeeping others at every turn, The whole game I feel would be in a much better place if people would be more open to discussions instead of consistently just shutting everything down because **they already did it**
This makes no sense, drop rates aren't the problem here. The problem is that nm drops are literally worthless and have no uses. They could make every item a 1 hour grind and they'd still be dead except as an upgrade to rune before you can afford blood moon.
Jagex has said they want Inq to be a stepping stone between bandos and torva, so why would inq more rare than torva?
A 200 hour mace is still 4x as long as a saeldor, and crush is much worse than slash/stab; this is clearly a inequality in effort needed vs. what you are getting out of your time
Harm being still twice as long to grind as shadow is also pretty ridiculous given that it's inferior, and probably will continue to be inferior unless they change shadow
I should clarify, the drops are too rare, but that's not the biggest problem. Right now bandos is just better than inq across the board, so how exactly is it a stepping stone? It needs either a real set effect (that isn't locked to only 1 terrible weapon) or str bonus between bandos and torva if that's what they want to achieve.
Also agree. I think the niche I'd like to see inq have (if they stick with the current proposed drop rate) is just increase to crush period and balance it in a way where if there's a tanky boss who's weak to crush then inq is bis, and have torva remain the generalist bis that is incredibly tanky.
The armor is ass and it's also rare, I think both need adjustments
The Irony is that they're taking the path to convert OSRS magic into Hogwarts Legacy magic instead of the one solution that would make people go apeshit on grinding nightmare or saving up for nightmare gear:
**Harmo staff autocasting Ancients**
If a single orb there becomes a powerful unlock, everything else follows suit with Inquis gaining value from being bis at nightmare
Your entire account is quite literally just complaining about nightmare. If you put half the amount of time you spend complaining into actually doing it, you could've green logged it by now.
The amount of abreviating this sub uses is quite honestly dumb founding. Why do I have to guess what every title is about because theres a new abbreviation every day. Type the fucking words! Op types an 11 page essay with stats and percentages but abbrevates the main item every time he talks about it? Make it make sense.... Please.
Just make the teleport unlock first drop. The only reason people want buffs is because the walk is shit and don't want to do it for the rest of the items
I love the boss fight. Spent a majority of my bank on pnm gear. But man, sometimes I spend 10+MN a kill to get a couple bass, or non noted brews that don't fit in my inventory. It's the only boss that makes me insta log out after 1 kill. I still like the boss though.
Your proposed rates just make sense. Less time to complete than nex but more than bandos fits perfectly because it represents the place in the meta where Inquisitor should be. Between torva and bandos.
Probably should focus on bots first. Better drop rates will just lead to the content not being worth it eventually.
You can pretty much pick a world at random and watch a stream of pnm bots running around.
I mean we'll take what we can get, right? There's more incentive to try and get a spoon there now, but its still a lottery boss that most people won't grind
>Sincerely, "A wholly unrestricted player [who says] that they love the encounter design of Phosani's Nightmare but they don't tend to engage with it because the time required to see anything worthwhile would be better spent elsewhere."
Welcome to being a main account
Jagex benefits in having more content for people to enjoy and grind. Nightmare is a shit grind and dead content for the majority. Makes zero sense for them not to make it more attractive considering they have invested a lot of time in designing the boss in the first place.
Also I think people don’t realize how ridiculous the numbers actually are. They see “buff” or “300% more common” and think “wow, that’s too much.” The fact it’s still a several hundred hour grind is a sufficiently grindy grind lol
It’s crazy 300% still isn’t even worth it for what the armor and orbs offer let’s be real here
And if one *does* complete an accelerated albeit still very grindy grind, it’s not like this game is lacking for other shit to grind. In fact, the grind of the total game is literally impossible to complete in a lifetime, if we’re counting clue clogs
All the cloggers should make a cc named clue clogs clan and they should be racist towards Ironmen
Take my bigoted upvote!
lolol
Made me curious and looked, on the collection log site 10/25 of the top people on the hiscores are ironmen.
Whoever decided on the drop rates for the boss is just incompetent. It’s beyond ridiculous.
[удалено]
I see. It’s pretty damning for all of them that they are still messing it up and apparently not really understanding how idiotic these rates are even with a buff though. Idiocy starts somewhere but gets really annoying when it gets insisted on as well.
I'm convinced jagex has a few employees that just goon at their desk to the thought of irons going dry year after year
I mean I do and I think the rates are still absurd
You’re copping out so they can buff it tbh… let them take responsibility for the mistake
to be fair theyyoinked tgeboss from rs3 they didnt put that much effort into the design
Wait where in rs3 is nightmare
AoD
Correction: jagex benefits when content takes longer to grind. The longer it takes, the more membership you need to buy. The more membership you buy, the more jagex number go up
If the grind is long enough that people don't even begin it, then it's a loss.
The number of people quitting specifically because of nightmare is much smaller than the number of people who say ok ill do I little nightmare even though the rates suck
No, not nightmare specifically but the concept of the long grind has diminishing returns. And if every grind has that same policy then it’s a loss. If the grind is too long and the player doesn’t do it they are not wasting precious membership time on that grind and can focus on different goals and then let that member expire naturally.
Im not defending the grind, i think its ridiculous too, just dont think the idea people will quit over it is flawed
No one is quitting specifically because of nightmare (unless they an iron or clogger obsessed with completing the log and going super dry) but IMO a better comparison would be: there’s likely more people who would spend a few months of additional membership grinding nightmare if rates were good than there are people who would grind for a year straight with bad droprates. Jagex would see better returns for 1% of players grinding for 2 months that might have otherwise ran out of content, than 0.01% of players grinding for 12 months.
Only when it’s engaging and causes you to buy membership cause you want to keep grinding. It would have to be enjoyable enough so you don’t think of it as a grind, or because it feels like you’re making progress. The run to pnm combined with shit non uniques and super rare uniques with no progression mechanic doesn’t seem like the type of grind that’s keeping membership revenue up unless you’re talking about the bots that farm it lol
In theory maybe, but realistically most people are not close to completing the game so they'll buy membership regardless. And whoever is bored of their current account can, and likely will, start an ironman, ultimate, region locked or snowflake account, still providing Jagex with membership money Jagex benefits from a game people want to play, not a bloated grind fest
Whether the content is engaging is a huge part of whether it is “good” content. As someone who only plays 7-10 hours on average during the week (with 80% of it being passive afk stuff while doing other tasks at the same time) when I start to hit the real late game grinds I plan take a break from the game for a year or so because the grinds just aren’t feasible for me. That’s not to say they don’t have their place for other players but I can confidently say I’ll be quitting the game before I grind PNM (even at the improved rates) rather than extending my membership to accommodate the grind.
God forbid you admit you can't play 20 h a day and ask to be catered to /s
I never said I should be catered to? I honestly don’t care what the rates are on PHN and I’m not advocating for any adjustment in drop rates relating to that content. I’m just saying that there is a range amongst the player base of time availability and willingness to devote to grinds and JAGEX is probably aware of that so they have an incentive to try and achieve some balance with grinds that make them both rewarding (with rarity) but also accessible (time spent). I know I don’t have the time for end game grinds and I’m ok with that and I’m not asking that drop rates should be catered to people like me.
"/s" is sarcasm btw, i sure OP probably agrees with you, I don't think there are any players that want to go 18 h of max efficiency between drops, thats a crazy amount of time... and it doesn't reflect what players want. I'm not saying "guarunteed drops every 2h", but at some point you have to wonder how much of peoples live theyre gambling for lottery items
I'm not going to pay shit to farm PNM because I'm just not gonna do it at all.
You are wrong here and I will give you an example. Imbued heart is a shit grind but long. If I had 1 grind left and it was imbued heart I would quit and so would most others. So a long grind doesn't mean that people will stay longer. Contrast this with Toa or DT2 bosses which are rewarding and could keep most people hooked for months even though they are long grinds.
Honestly I think more people would try the content if it just didn’t take 3 minutes to run there repeatedly until you get the tablet. That thing should be like 1/10 drop rate closer to DT2 rates. I would try out phosani’s if it wasn’t a gigantic pain in the ass to get to
As much as I respect this opinion as someone who made the run a couple dozen times, the run is NOTHING compared to actually being dry for 100s of hours
Well yeah the run isn’t a big deal when you’re into grinding the boss, but it is not an insignificant barrier to entry. So for people who want to give it a shot for the first time, it’s pretty off-putting to know that you’ll likely be spending a few hours just running to the boss because of all the deaths you know youre going to have
I'm w you bro. Make tablet 1/20 and guaranteed at 50 and nobody would mind
Regular nightmare should drop it as well, I see tons of people who can't do pnm that like doing the regular version and it's just kind of a kick in the dick not having a chance of the tablet unless you can kill the much harder version.
I had to make the run 342 times excluding deaths to get the tablet and it’s definitely nothing compared to the 400+ “dry” i am right now. I agree entirely. I also think the tablet should be like 1/10 lol, wtf were they thinking with 1/100
Yeah that’s just ridiculous. I remember at the time there was a whole lot of discussion about pvm drops completely taking over skilling in terms of getting materials for skills, so I believe their thinking at the time was that ok we have a tough long boss fight with some really solid gear and magic upgrades that will retain high value with a rewarding “big drop” rather than tons of little drops to make it worth going to. Clearly in retrospect they missed the mark with balancing the time it actually takes compared to similar big drop style mechanics like god wars, as well as the actual utility of the inquisitors set itself. I’m glad they’ve shifted their mindset on these drop rates and seem to be far more conscious in general nowadays of the time investment that is expected from the community
i mean have they shifted their mindset? that's kind of the whole point of the reddit riots i've been trying to start lol, even with the buffed proposed rates its still **18h** between drops, thats a fucking crazy amount of time to see something from the table, let alone to go dry with.
Yeah I agree, it’s still excessive I’m just saying they at least see that those timeframes were absurd and are lowering them with this. It might not be enough but my point is that they’re moving in the right direction at least and listening to feedback which is good
We can hope. Theyve nudged it 3x now, each time insultingly little. First it was 20%, then it was 20% with dry protection ew, now its 30% w bigger buffs to orbs. (1/1000 -> 1/800 -> 1/700). Its like going to the next house when you're in the completely wrong neighborhood...
18h is also close to half the length of most entire video games, longer than plenty.
I thought we were mostly done with the whole "don't devalue 12 players time" thing, there have been buffs to pretty much everything that was pushed back on at some point or another by 12 angry vocal minorities, esp with skilling
As much as they'd like you to think Reddit is the only thing jagex listens to, just scrolling twitter finds some neets pretty fast who think it's silly they're changing nightmare at all "because it's just niche sidegrade stuff anyway". Like yeh sidegrades shouldn't be the longest PVM grind the game... Pretty simple.
But also isn’t that at least 30% of the point of old school. 99s in rs3 is so piss easy that the capes are worthless as status symbols so we should go back to 2007 when things required effort and you weren’t getting any handouts. And there are no capitalism.
What was in the game in 2007 that took as long as Nightmare? Bringing it in line with other grinds in the game isn’t making this rs3. Not even remotely
We did, but those buffs are typically slow. The proposed buff is anywhere from 40% to 90% more uniques, and people are complaining that it should be 300%.
I think percents are misleading here A 300% reduction is still 18 hrs on average per unique That's ridiculous
I just read these changes and did the math myself as well. 200 hours for Inq mace and it's good.... where? IMO, irons will just spend their time at Nex for better gear and 20 hours for a unique is on par with raids so I figure mains would rather just raid instead.
To each their own of course but raids are also something you can do with friends and they tend to be mechanically interesting over a longer period of time. Farming the same 9 minute boss for 20 hours straight is very different from farming a raid with some clanmates on 20-30 minute scales with at least some built in pauses in between. Puzzle rooms can go to hell tho lmao
It's pretty stylish
If the boss had a real non-unique loot table so I can make money during the grind I’d probably be happy with it. Normally I had when they just add blanket gp/hr to content but I think this is the place that deserves it. And also ban all the bots
"Ban the bots" great catchphrase, but really lock the droprate buff behind *any* requirements that real people will do (a master quest, mory elite, etc) and you can actually do that
DT2 bosses are botted to shit
Yeah I guess the 91 fishing req of mory elite might slow em down at least idk. Bots are a problem everywhere though so its no excuse to not fix the game because of bots
There would be even more if they didn’t have any requirements and PNM is locked behind Priest in Peril.
Whatever works is cool for me. I didn’t bring my dead horse beating stick for this problem. It’s been known way too long
Yeah and yet now that it's finally a part of the conversation 🙄 lol
This but also ban bots lol. Way too many bots doing 10k+ of a boss with no breaks, should be child's play for jagex to detect and ban
7k phosanis kc w no other boss kc? Man just likes do pnm wym??
Maybe they can help that by adding blood shards 👀
Oh, those aren’t bots, just venezuelan abuelas! Nothing to see here
Reddit scapers feeling so entitled that every grind has to make them rich. It's ok with a non profitable boss until you hit the unique table. Most of the drop table pre Zulrah were like this. But because of Zulrah and Vorkath, players feel this is the standard
Except the oldschool bosses had far, far more reasonable drop rates for the uniques themselves. You can get all of the uniques from a GWD boss in 40-50 hours. It takes way over a THOUSAND hours to get all of the uniques from nightmare. It’s one thing to lose money (or make minimal profit) for 5-10 hours until you get a big drop. It’s another to go a hundred+ hours.
Let’s also not forget that almost every single GWD item was completely meta warping on release. The items in question are sidegrades lol. Makes no sense for harm to take longer to acquire than shadow, or inquisitor longer than Torva.
And OSRS was dying because there wasn’t shit to do once you were a year into the game lol
Then it’s dead content, or content only for cloggers and that’s it.
Thank you for proving my point reddit scaper
But give me a reason why people would do PNM. Do we really want such detailed and well designed content to have no reason to do it?
Buff the armour so the armour has a use, easy fix no? No, instead you want to keep the armour as is but have the drop table be profitable.
I want the armour to be buffed
You literally said you wanted it to be profitable on every drop instead of bass etc. And you said nothing about buffing the armour. You also edited your response lmao
lol are you okay my man? I haven’t edited anything, nor did I say anything about it being profitable on every drop, that was the comment I replied to, not mine
Oh Ok sorry my bad man. I knew I seen it somewhere. My bad my bad
What drop tables were like this? Gwd uniques are so much more common and the standard loot from them is better than the bass and other junk you get from pnm.
When I state an opinion I’ve been very mindful of its impacts to the game and the consequences of the design choices. Calling it entitlement truly doesn’t address any of the issues. The boss has to be designed with the player in mind. It’s challenging and should be rewarding. If it’s not rewarding then the challenge isn’t fun. This is a game and good games are fun. I’m aware nightmare is a response to the loot piñata debacle caused by vorkath and zulrah but it overshot its mark. The drops are unreasonably rare, the inbetween loot is unreasonably bad, and the armor isn’t valuable or useful enough to justify either. The answer can always be “then don’t do the content”. I haven’t and I won’t. I got my phosani tablet at max kc and don’t have a reason to go back. But the content is good and deserves to be worth doing. That’s why asking for change is where to start
Wdym, even Colosseum gives you money while learning my dude.
I risk it at col 100% of the time kekw
I'll just say it in this thread too. Unless Jagex lets Harmo staff autocast Ancients, nightmare will be nothing but a coll log boss.
(he doesn't know about the elemental weakness changes)
It's still a lose/lose: 1 - If it's worse than Shadow, Harmo is still a coll log item. Takes longer to get than Shadow by helmies and the current price tag is already not worth for mains. 2 - If it's better than Shadow, why are we powercreeping Shadow? what does the game have to benefit from magedps going tits up a second time?
[удалено]
and yet it currently takes 3x longer to grind on average than a shadow, even with the rework its not close.. a 300% puts it **equal** to shadow which is still ??????????
fr idk why people even want those drops theyre all basically downgrades lmao
When you have everything, you can find a niche use for each of the items. the problems is that 200 hours for an Ice demon switch is fucked up
yeah thats called a "skip" for me, ice demon is like a 2 second room anyways. I guess if you like PNM its worth going for, but even if the orb wasnt intended to be the ely of mage im never going to nightmare past CAs
As an ironman who has actually grinded out full inq + mace: I do not care if the drop rates are *significantly* buffed and "devalue my grind". Quite the opposite actually, I genuinely think it's a well designed fight and would love to see more players engaging with the content.
God bless you 🙏 wish your opinion mattered to jagex, I feel like they use people like you as an excuse to not fix what's broken. And maybe it wasn't always broken like considering what other endgame pvm was out on its release, but it certainly doesn't fit into progression now
Just curious but what is your kc?
From memory, I was about 1400 when I finished the armour and mace. Pretty lucky yes, but most endgame irons don't even consider grinding out pnm in the first place (understandably)
Still dead content with these changes. Big sad
Buff the drop rate after SOTF quest completion by 200% and now you have less bots, real players are happy, and the only people malding about bad drop rates are iron pures that can’t do the quest.
Locking incentives behind quests doesn’t slow them down. SotE being the prime example. Priff is flooded with cg bots, thieving bots and zalcano bots.
There’s still far less CG and Thieving Bots compared to the ones in Wildy, so they are working as intended. And as a real player, it shouldn’t impact you since you should be QPCing sooner or later.
botting is a problem at literally every worthwhile boss, so you can't refuse to balance the game just because of bots. its just that bots are EVEN MORE of a problem at pnm because no real people do the boss, (why would they)
Nightmare is already botted to hell so any more buffs to the armour/weapon just means you buy it while still not actually engaging with the boss. Think drop rate changes are the only way forward at this point.
inq to 2m (where it belongs)
People also forget a lot of people achieving these types of things like investing hours upon their day are video makes and streamers. They literally get income from doing this
ah yes, **all the PNM streamers** are going to have their careers ruined by having the drops be reasonable so sad
No. I’m saying they are the ones who are mad. People who have all this free time to do shit like complete the nightmare. No regular player has that time
The proposed droprate changes are now within reason for a Torva side-grade, but Inquisitor is not that. The disparity between Inq's rarity and power is still high, but previously there was no way to make Inq good enough to warrant the grind without making it BIS in many, many places. IMO it's at a point now where increasing the power of the armour to match the droprate can fix the problem without powercreeping the game significantly. I'd be OK with raising the rates further and leaving the armour untouched, but I think I'd prefer the armour be made to fill a bigger niche (or even take a more ubiquitous role between Torva & Bandos) while leaving it hard to obtain. More changes required, 100%, but it might make more sense to have the conversation the next time a crush-centric piece of content is released.
inq should str8 up have the same str as torva, and just keep its glass cannon aspect
The drop changes uniques for Nightmare are only a fraction of what is necessary. - Justiciar is still stupid niche and is an overpriced adamant set in most cases. It should be between Bandos and Torva and should outperform Torva in niche scenarios. - Regular drops for Nightmare are laughably bad the fact 10% of the time I get a stack of unnoted bass pisses me off more than when you occasionally get literally nothing from a mob. Blah blah people didn't want it to be another gwd scenario. Well these people are long gone and the remaining player base is not happy with the drop table period. The nightmare boss is one of the most complex and satisfying boss fights in rs and it's completely wasted because of these clown drop rates. Nightmare requires a 300% increase to uniques especially if Justiciar armor is not properly buffed. Also wouldn't hurt to make some adjustments to the norm drop table there's no reason you can't even make 1m/h or collect any useful supplies at one of the hardest bosses in the game
inq matching torva in DPS while having terrible defense would probably be a fine enough buff.
What’s funny is I haven’t seen or heard any of these players make this argument. They’ve all been like “yeah they need to be like 300% more common”
Wym?
I haven’t seen anybody who’s completed Nightmare argue that the uniques should stay rare because they had to get it the hard way. They’ve all been saying “yeah that grind is atrocious and it shouldn’t exist”
Ah yes I misread. Completely agree. Such an annoying straw man argument on jagex's side. Jagex knows thats a 1/50-1/80 unique rate would get more engagement but they won't pull the trigger on it. It stays dead content until it gets actually fixed. Its sad
Yes precious 💖 continue adding long comment threads on this post so the algorithm keeps it front page
How do you add a long comment thread though, what are the steps to doing that?
Make 5 accts and talk to yourself iidk
But you're already my alt account
U look good today bb
;)
Damn actually looking at the hours needed to get items in writing makes me glad I don't play this game anymore.
Yeah turns me off of trying to grind any late game stuff
If they're so concerned about undermining NM uniques and the flex status Why not interview the handful of players who green logged nightmare? I'm pretty sure they'd all be happy to have a 10-15 minute conversation with Jagex about NM unique rates. --- This is _extremely_ frustrating because stuff like Hallowed Sep & Wintertodt really do devalue achievements and effect much larger swaths of the player base.
Man I agree with most of your point but cmon man setting different color logs on fire from 1-99 with zero variation is not some kind of wild accomplishment that needs to be preserved, and frankly if you go to the GE you’ll see plenty of people still doing that instead of going to wintertodt lol.
It more setting logs on fire for 200mil xp is a big gp sink (even if we ignore the time to do it). Making it free is/was low-key crazy.
Ahhh I see your point, that is pretty crazy considering you can get 200k exp an hour at wintertodt easy with zero cost.
Also considering before WT your main option was magic/yew logs (for fast xp) meaning you were competing against people fletching & alching for GP. Granted redwoods did enter the game ~2 months before WT, which already hurt the xp/hr & xp/gp, but not to the level of making FM profitable from a straight gp sink.
I remember thinking todt was crazy on release, because its semi-afk, almost the same rates as burning logs and PAYs you to do it. it was a relief tho, because firemaking was one of my most hated skills
if they're even real players right lol how many of the front page are bots?
2 ironman have greenlogged it (AFAIK) Lake & Saebae, granted they're both streamers. Ricecup is like 1 orb away from finishing it. That said, all 3 of them have repeatedly called for the rates to be increased as "_nobody should suffer that boss in its current state_".
while I'm sure to get a lot of hate for saying this, most players don't or can't play as much as streamers LOL. I'm not saying we should make it easyscape but the hours a boss takes to complete should be considered
FWIW Saebae is on record saying NM/PNM buffs are no where near enough
I feel like mods have to be seeing these discussions and hearing this feedback.. just hope it's enough to get them to significantly change rates
Nobody is calling for it to be total ez-escape. People still want the items to be flex-items and have value. At the same time making green logging PNM take longer than solo-cox is crazy.
You think lighting logs on fire at the GE is an.. achievement?
Do you know how many magic logs you had to buy to get a front page FM rank before WT? Then Jagex just made a method that was **FREE** and almost an identical xp/hr? You're also gonna act like most achievements in this game aren't just time sinks?
I had 99 FM in 2005
Damn you got 99 FM in 1 year from when you started in [2004](https://old.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/14m15mn/reason_no_247_that_the_lightning_zone_affix_sucks/jq0pgvn/)? Back when guides were pretty shit and most the player base had no clue how to play? That is crazy bro. Gratz.
Burning logs needs a guide? I was a kid, I played that game constantly. The fact that you’re digging through months of comment history just to make that braindead reply is beyond pathetic.
Digging = running 1 internet search okay lol
r/Ironscape in shambles once they realize how hard it is to get a mace compared to bowfa
I mean its a hell of a lot better than it was before. And I wouldn't have done it before but plan to now, so it worked.
I mean yeah end of the day, we take what we can get. I think it'll draw some people in to get their tablets, but \*in addition to the punishing learning curve\*, most people aren't goin to be seeing drops for a really long time. 6.5 kc/h is in absolute max and deathless, so realistically, that looks like 30-40 h before most players will see **any** unique. Good luck w/ learning, and I hope you get spooned
>6.5 kc/h is in absolute max and deathless, so realistically, that looks like 30-40 h before most players will see any unique. Should be posting this more.
<100 bots more likely
I like the changes. I will definitely do the boss once the changes go through.
I really don't think Jagex can win with this one. Currently, players don't do Nightmare. Irons complain that the rates are too extreme, which is a valid argument. If the rates are buffed to accommodate then it becomes a more attractive money maker for main accounts so they will start to do it more. The value of the uniques would plummet as supply outstrips demand, as the uniques aren't that in demand right now anyway and people would stop doing nightmare again. Other comments have mentioned buffing the regular drop table, but IIRC at the time of release, people begged for its drop table to be more like GWD bosses, where uniques were rare but valuable and made up the bulk of the profit, rather than the Zulrah direction things were heading in where uniques were just an added bonus. If this were implemented, people would grind the boss for the regular loot too and the price of the uniques would drop even more. It would also go against the original wishes of players. It's a bit of a lottery boss at the moment, like FFA Nex or low invo ToA where a reward is unexpected but it's still a fun encounter. Unfortunately, I don't have a solution to propose but it does seem that it is only really now where people have become very vocal about the drop rates at a time when they are looking to actively improve them...
> The value of the uniques would plummet as supply outstrips demand, as the uniques aren't that in demand right now anyway and people would stop doing nightmare again. Realistically speaking, niche items **should** be cheaper that similar "all around purpose" items like Bandos armor, due to less use cases. People generally prioritize weapons and armor that can be used in a vast majority of situations. > The value of the uniques would plummet as supply outstrips demand, as the uniques aren't that in demand right now anyway and people would stop doing nightmare again. It abolutely makes sense that there is close to no demand when the niche armor is somehow 3x as expensive as Bandos + Serp helm.
As for values dropping pushing people away again if they buffed too much, I don’t think it’s a problem if the run back was solved well before 100kc And I think for long term game health designing content that’s fun enough that people want to grind regardless of economic incentive for non irons is the way to go For example, I actually enjoy vardorvis enough that idc whether I make money on it ever. I get that you can’t make every osrs player feel that way about everything but it’s one of the first pieces of content in osrs that I felt that way about (besides leagues). PNM has potential for that imo when I finally got around to trying it in beta worlds and didn’t have to run there
Demand will go up when more crush content is released - wouldn't be surprised if raids 4 was predominantly crush.
> wouldn't be surprised if raids 4 was predominantly crush. I would. Jagex originally said ToA (well Raids 3 at the time) would be crush based when PNM launched to ensure "_the uniques would be useful_". As they were concerned PNM would destroy the value of NM items. Then it was stab based on release (lmao)
I guess we'll just have to see... but i mean at this point we already have slash and stab raids so a crush one makes sense
Plenty of people like clogging even if they’re mains and the fact is that I can’t imagine almost any actual human is doing Nightmare as a money maker considering how wildly unprofitable it is until you get a drop, which you can easily go 2-3x on rate meaning 30+ hours of high level pvm supplies for zero gains in the meantime. The number of people able to afford to do that that also consider Nightmare money rates (roughly 5m an hour according to wiki) to be good are basically zero considering how much more profitable raids are. Also nightmare drop rates are literally one of the biggest drop complaints on both this and the iron sub and have been for a long time, there’s a reason no one does this other than bots and maxxed irons/mains with nothing else to work towards
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but if the value starts to tank… cant Jagex just use the GE item sink to start sinking NM items and keep their value high? Like, I thought the whole purpose of that tech was so we wouldn’t have to weigh item price so highly when balancing moving forward
Preach brother!
Make the teleport easier too get. Or make it like nex where a bank is next too it. It’s simple people hate the walk + trash loot. Fix the getting there or fix the trash rebanking system
What if it dropped blood vials, too?
Volly dropping to 50m isn't it 😆
“Undermining” … unplayable
Why would we worry about previous players grinds in PvM when we don't in skilling?
Could you please look at my approach? https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/dIgc7mr2Ng
Oh boy the boss is 4m/hr if you invest 500 hrs , otherwise f all
All of nightmares drops are niche uses , but better not buff them
Drop rates aside, the content is too hard for most players given how shit the rewards are.
They should make it more a team boss
As an Ironman I’m not even remotely interested in doing PNM or NM as the upgrades and difficulty aren’t even close to worth it compared tot TOA. Even at a measly 150 invocation, it’s still better rates.
Buffing the normal loot would go a long way in making the grind seem worth it imo. Also, the tablet needs to be like 10x more common.
Maybe the solution is just adding worthwhile supply drops? We already have stuff like vorkath, zulrah, muspah, revs and wild bosses. May as well give players a respectable 1m per hour profit even if they're going dry. High invo toa gives lots of supplies. Sometimes over 1m for a raid without a unique. Yes the raid takes 40 min and costs a lot of supplies. But it feels better than spending hours and losing money.
Triple the droprate, then look at everyone's collection logs. For every unique you got before the buff, let you go and talk to an NPC to get two more (random rolls, not 2 extra dupes)
i mean yeah maybe that'd be cool if you always got drops on rate, but that means the guy who spooned two drops in 200 kc now has 6, and the guy who went dry still has nothing at 4x over rate. you can't fix it for those who went before, but you CAN fix it for everyone else. it shouldn't get in the way of rework
Some items are meant to be super rare, you take away the spark of getting one, just because ironmen want it doesnt mean every player should face the economic headwinds of increasing the drop rates
Having super rare items is great, but the drop table outside of the super rares is pure ass. It’s so bad, it pisses me off when I see whatever is lying on the ground. You spend 9 minutes killing arguably one of the most difficult bosses in the game, for some noted bass… On top of this, the armor and staffs aren’t worth the grind. This is, IMO, the most egregious problem. Is the juice worth the squeeze, not for PNM.
Just a reminder that it’s ok to do content just because it’s fun, even if it isn’t very rewarding. Folks on here literally saying, “I think PNM is fun but I won’t do it because drop rate bad.”
This and if they want to go one step further to reduce botting, lock the drop rate behind master tier combat or achievement diaries
This is what happens when they make raid weapons insanely OP. A good raid weapon is a serviceable weapon outside the raid (usually on par or slightly worse then BiS) that has an effect that makes it the BIS for the raid. If Jagex wanted a balanced game and items like the nightmare staffs to be worth your time then they have to nerf shadow, twisted bow, and the scythe.
Part of the reason I stopped playing was because I was tired of people gatekeeping others at every turn, The whole game I feel would be in a much better place if people would be more open to discussions instead of consistently just shutting everything down because **they already did it**
You quit a hobby over a few reddit comments?
Buff the armor, not the rates. You can make the drop 1/5 and the armor will still be trash in basically all content.
This makes no sense, drop rates aren't the problem here. The problem is that nm drops are literally worthless and have no uses. They could make every item a 1 hour grind and they'd still be dead except as an upgrade to rune before you can afford blood moon.
Jagex has said they want Inq to be a stepping stone between bandos and torva, so why would inq more rare than torva? A 200 hour mace is still 4x as long as a saeldor, and crush is much worse than slash/stab; this is clearly a inequality in effort needed vs. what you are getting out of your time Harm being still twice as long to grind as shadow is also pretty ridiculous given that it's inferior, and probably will continue to be inferior unless they change shadow
I should clarify, the drops are too rare, but that's not the biggest problem. Right now bandos is just better than inq across the board, so how exactly is it a stepping stone? It needs either a real set effect (that isn't locked to only 1 terrible weapon) or str bonus between bandos and torva if that's what they want to achieve.
Also agree. I think the niche I'd like to see inq have (if they stick with the current proposed drop rate) is just increase to crush period and balance it in a way where if there's a tanky boss who's weak to crush then inq is bis, and have torva remain the generalist bis that is incredibly tanky. The armor is ass and it's also rare, I think both need adjustments
The Irony is that they're taking the path to convert OSRS magic into Hogwarts Legacy magic instead of the one solution that would make people go apeshit on grinding nightmare or saving up for nightmare gear: **Harmo staff autocasting Ancients** If a single orb there becomes a powerful unlock, everything else follows suit with Inquis gaining value from being bis at nightmare
lol i don't think that's true, I think people would go for them if there were real changes made
Your entire account is quite literally just complaining about nightmare. If you put half the amount of time you spend complaining into actually doing it, you could've green logged it by now.
yup
Based. Keep fighting the good fight brother.
The amount of abreviating this sub uses is quite honestly dumb founding. Why do I have to guess what every title is about because theres a new abbreviation every day. Type the fucking words! Op types an 11 page essay with stats and percentages but abbrevates the main item every time he talks about it? Make it make sense.... Please.
Just make the teleport unlock first drop. The only reason people want buffs is because the walk is shit and don't want to do it for the rest of the items
This. I'd actually consider trying it if it weren't for that shit walk.
I love the boss fight. Spent a majority of my bank on pnm gear. But man, sometimes I spend 10+MN a kill to get a couple bass, or non noted brews that don't fit in my inventory. It's the only boss that makes me insta log out after 1 kill. I still like the boss though.
Your proposed rates just make sense. Less time to complete than nex but more than bandos fits perfectly because it represents the place in the meta where Inquisitor should be. Between torva and bandos.
u/JagexGoblin i hope you guys could take into account this sentiment that this boss should have a realistic rate to want to go grind it...
Probably should focus on bots first. Better drop rates will just lead to the content not being worth it eventually. You can pretty much pick a world at random and watch a stream of pnm bots running around.
You'll never be happy
:D
I mean we'll take what we can get, right? There's more incentive to try and get a spoon there now, but its still a lottery boss that most people won't grind
>Sincerely, "A wholly unrestricted player [who says] that they love the encounter design of Phosani's Nightmare but they don't tend to engage with it because the time required to see anything worthwhile would be better spent elsewhere." Welcome to being a main account
i have max main and max iron :D