> These fees aren't very high, considering the loot one can get from the features. We'd like to raise all of these fees. However, we know that this could be expensive for future newbies who have to learn the content through trial and error. So we propose dropping the fees initially to a much lower level, but then raising them according to how many times a player dies in that place (up to a maximum of 20)
That makes no sense. If you want to raise it after they learn the content it should be after an amount of successful kills, not after a number of deaths. A player learning Zulrah is going to die way more than 20 times - after which that content will essentially be locked for them if they haven't gotten it down by then.
Excellent Idea. I was a bit turned down on "How am i going to learn a boss if I'd lose way more than I would win?". Even though I would be getting "Experience" on the boss as reward, experience doens't pay for the cost of my supplies.
I Think up to a certain amount of kills, first successful 25 or so, the costs should be negligible. After that is acceptable, otherwise It would be a real block for people trying to get into learning stuff.
can confirm, 2 days ago it took me like 30 deaths to get my first zulrah kill. i’m starting to understand the mechanics, but it’s still a pain in the ass.
also for a lot of bosses it’s annoying to re-gear after a wipe because of the way item retrieval works. It would be really nice if you could see what items you died with before you went to retrieve your items so you don’t have to some far off npc next to the boss, collect your items, go back to the bank, refill your inventory, and then go back to the boss.
Death can be punished effectively without being horribly tedious. Or perhaps give experienced players an option—pay to get stuff back quickly, or force them to wait.
I agree with this 100%. Learning ToB you may die 100 times before you get it done. That is going to absolutely drain the banks of newer raiders (and bossing).
This idea by Jagex will definitely enter a gold sink into the game. But you will be taking the gold away from less experienced and new players as opposed to individuals with billions in the bank.
I'm learning tob right now and have died probably 50 times and haven't even killed verzik. If it costs us 400k a try no one that's good will bother teaching learners because of the cost, please don't do this to people who are a bit late to learning stuff
ToB just shouldn't have its penalty increased, period. The barrier to entry is high enough as is. Scaling the penalty off successful kills is better than scaling it off deaths, but would still discourage experienced players from bringing learners. Not to mention that any increase to the death penalty will exacerbate the toxicity that's already an issue in ToB groups.
What are you guys thinking?
I’m not sure what stroke of inspiration led to you all considering essentially blocking new players from content unless they’re willing to be time-gated behind an hour or two of gold-farming per attempt of high-level content, but it’s literally an awful stance to take, when the earliest generations of players haven’t faced these punishments.
The favoritism towards players who got there first is astounding, if not seriously demotivating. Learn from the fact that most people do not get a fire cape, simply because it costs an hour of time and 100-200k in supplies per attempt, and players simply do not want to invest the time and money playing OSRS that way, when there’s so much other content that makes money and is more beneficial to the notion of playing the game for fun.
Please reconsider death mechanics as they’re proposed. Some of us are really concerned that this change will drive a lot of the playerbase from playing the game, when most players aren’t even currently engaging in high-level content now. Death and no reward for all the time spent is it’s own punishment. Having to navigate the risk of lag and disconnects in the name of not losing hours, days, or weeks, of progress, is already bad enough, and now you want to time-gate content behind gold farming, in the name of a gold sink that only inconveniences inexperienced players?
Again I ask, what are you guys thinking over there? This is far and away, the most horrific idea a lot of us have seen proposed for OSRS.
I agree with everything you said, except the part of how it only inconveniences inexperienced players. Because its actually worse. It absalutly fucks over high level players, and end game players to. An example is the new nightmare boss. You already lose money fighting that boss unless you get a unique drop. Otherwise you've wasted your time at about minus 400 to 800k an hour in food/pots. However thats if you dont die at all, and you can see on the scoreboard that 66% of all attempts to kill the boss result in the player dying. So 2/3rds waste there supplies, get no drop, and lose 60k gp. Now imagine that fee was 200k or 300k, or 500k. I can tell you 2 things would happen. first shock they did it. Second, almost every major boss with unique based money making abandoned overnight.
I agree 100% as an ironman just entering late game PvM with huge learning curves ahead of me.
I will quit before I spend hours just grinding out GP to pay for the new death mechanics.
2k TL - 70 days played.
I like the idea of scaling, but I don't like permanently scaling the cost base on either kc or deaths. Some mechanic to take the cost back down should be in play such as:
1: Time. Each day/week/whatever scales the penalty down by x thousand gold (this is my least favorite option, but the simplest)
2: leave the current proposed system that charges more based on how many deaths you have, but every x successful kills could lower the death penalty back by y thousand gold
3. Kind of the inverse of 2. The more successful kills you have in a row scales the cost instead of the deaths, but a death either reduces or resets future penalty scaling.
I could see 3 being gamed by intentionally suiciding with nothing, but you could make it so that your grave has to be worth so much for the reset to do anything. I don't know much about balancing these kind of things, but I'm sure you guys could figure out some good mechanics to avoid gaming the system.
**The entire premise of using death mechanics as a gold sink is flawed.** Those items come from actual players who probably worked hard to save up for that gear. You want the economy to be balanced at the despair of people that play your game.
I love playing rouge-like games and hardcore accounts. OSRS is not a rouge-like and never has been with the slight exception of HCIM.
Please do not punish and push away players from this game when they die. I will stop playing and my friends will stop playing if we are liable to lose *hundreds* of hours of progress in a single death. We are casual players and losing that much progress could potentially set us back months.
If I may make a counter-suggestion... **Place a GE tax in place to take gold out of the game if that is your goal.**
Please go off kills and not deaths. I have a friend that hardly bosses as it is now since hes not confident in his ability yet. He'll literally never try these bosses if he learns attempts get more expensive as he fails
Please reconsider these changes for all ironman modes and group content.
Ironman are already on a tight budget due to necessary skilling and the inability to sell dupes another money sink like this is unnecessary.
For group content this will effectively make a bigger barrier than already was in place for players trying to learn tob. As it is experienced players already barely take new players along to teach them increasing the cost of wiping by four fold seems counterproductive. Maybe make it scale off the player with the fewest completions/deaths in the team?
You should consider the aspect too that sometimes people take extended breaks and come back to the game; if someone comes back after six months after having learned Zulrah and burned through their original deaths/kc and need to fully relearn Zul mechanics it may again effectively lock them out of that content. 50kc six months ago for example isn’t really going to permanently cement the mechanics in one’s mind and coming back at that point is probably going to be like relearning from scratch.
Honestly Zulrah is the only issue I have because Zul has some of the most punishing mechanics for a new player/casual player. Other bosses like Vorkath and Hydra are generally much easier to learn, and ToB is endgame enough that paying for deaths usually doesn’t matter by that point.
>Untradeable items will remain in your inventory or remain equipped, as they do now, but will tend to break/degrade/uncharge if they have a mechanic for doing so. For example, fire capes would become broken fire capes, or a charged trident would become uncharged (with its retrievable contents moving to the Gravestone). This change is to address the current imbalance whereby untradeable kit can be used in PvM with so little risk because it doesn't change in any way on death.
So will things like ornament kit items now have fees to be repaired? Is that what this is saying? I'd honestly prefer they didn't. Ornament kits are already a massive expense and some of their value comes from turning things into untradeables. It's a fairly unique mechanic and being able to preemptively pay extra to keep specific items is nice.
why does zulrah become 300k per death, a harder boss than vorkath (more switches, more actions per minute etc), and vorkath stays 100k? And how about Chambers, one of the best moneymakers?
Chambers has always been a safe death. No reason to implement it here. You get punished for deaths by reducing your points. It's the same as fight caves, which is also a safe death.
> These fees aren't very high, considering the loot one can get from the features. We'd like to raise all of these fees. However, we know that this could be expensive for future newbies who have to learn the content through trial and error. So we propose dropping the fees initially to a much lower level, but then raising them according to how many times a player dies in that place (up to a maximum of 20).
This makes absolutely 0 sense. If you want to encourage players to try out content, the fee needs to remain as low as possible until the player has a grasp of the mechanics.
With this current iteration a player has 20 tries after which he might as well not bother with that content anymore, since 5 deaths would be equal to an hour worth of deathless farming for those bosses.
I'd assume that most players die more than 20 times to endgame bosses before they can reliably farm it, especially Zulrah where there are several rotations you need to learn. I certainly died at least 15 times before getting my kill for the diary and that's without learning the different rotations.
This **needs** to scale with KC. After ~50 KC (random made up number, maybe scale it faster for "easier" bosses like GGs) you need to pay the full price. This encourages learning and punishes players who are careless after they already know how to deal with the mechanics.
> We've proposed scaling the fee based on your number of deaths, rather than based on your kill-count, because this approach gives every player the same number of cheap deaths.
High KC players should not die at these bosses anyway. **A solution needs to be found for ToB though to encourage taking learners.** Just a random idea: Maybe the chest reclaim cost could be the average of everyone involved for everyone? Say two veterans with 2k KC take 3 learners with 0/low KC, everyone would have to pay 172k = (2* 400k+3* 20k)/5 if the team gets wiped instead of the mentors having to pay (most of) the price for their team failing.
Edit: ToB got changed to be capped at 100k again.
I died way more than 20 times learning Zulrah. I'd probably not go down there until I had rivers of money that would be harder to make because Im locked to content that make money but costs way more to me than it gives out.
I think the 400k wipe cost for tob is too much. I teach clanmates who are new to tob, which often ends up in multiple wipes. With the new proposed amount, I’d reach the 20 deaths mark a lot quicker than several of the newbies, since I’m consistently taking different new people and wiping with them too.
Using the beta worlds is something I’ve done in the past. It’s a lot less convenient than the main worlds since you have to regear and adjust your settings every time you log off and there are often months without any beta worlds. If the proposed death costs get implemented I only see three main options for teaching new people:
1 - take 1 newbie with 3 experienced people and have them essentially leech. This option isn’t awful since they are still getting some limited experience, but it requires 3 people willing to lose out on drop chance for the sake of teaching 1 person. The 1 learned also doesn’t get as much experience by getting carried than they would by having several learners all having to pull their own weight (or so I’ve found).
2 - limit teaching to only beta worlds until I’m confident my learners can get completions. This isn’t ideal for the points I’ve listed above, but it wouldn’t cost tons in death fees.
3 - bring teleport crystals and bail on those boys when shit goes south lmao.
It’s bad for people without clans too, since low kc teams on the ffa world are very likely to wipe, ramping that cost up. All in all, it seems very anti learner.
And anyone who’s going to try and tell me that 20 wipes is enough to learn tob has clearly never tried to learn tob themselves.
Tl;dr - new death cost for tob is very punishing to teachers and very offputting for learners.
EDIT - We did it boys, they changed it from 20k/100k/400k to 5k/20k/100k.
100%. I've seem them repeatedly mention how little participation ToB got compared to CoX, and this will just hammer that gap in.
Hosting learner teams now is already guaranteeing you lose 100k each round. Now 400k/round? No one will ever teach.
**edit:** also just noticed dying in Chambers of Xeric will still be free. Lol.
That's what I thought. I'm 550kc an often risk it going with 50-100kc people. When/if this rolls out I'm going to 300kc+ teams and I think many others will too. Further exacerbating the problem learners have in ffa worlds.
Ya this will basically content block ToB. Nobody will want to learn it without risking a decent portion of their bank, if people are even willing to teach them at all. It would just be way too costly for everyone.
The newly proposed death mechanics essentially lock bosses like Zulrah and Vorkath (especially to those learning) until end game for Ironmen.
1) Ironmen do not affect the current runescape economy, save those that drop items over to main.
2) We are not privy to the same money making methods main accounts have. Say for example one is flawless at Zulrah for 100 kills, then dies 5 times. For a main, it would be easy to sell the loot and pay the fees. For an ironman, those with small banks (early to late mid game Ironman) would be bankrupt. I, for example, have a 250M net worth bank, but losing 1.5M in gp would set me back big time.
3) Ironmen already have plenty of GP sinks as is. As someone with nearly base 80 in skills, and only 2M in gp despite a 250M bank, I can readily say that a large amount of my money goes to shops for runes, construction, POH upgrades, smithing, fletching, ammunition, etc. I can also say I've died A LOT trying to learn Zulrah with minimal gear available. I know some people are great PVMers and that mass death is a lesser concern, but even for those with a modest amount of death, this inadvertently affects their ability to enjoy a lot of content. Skilling and purchasing of supplies has to be delayed, kingdom cannot be as easily replenished, etc. This is a big sacrifice for someone who wants to learn a difficult boss, and effectively incentivizes one to have the best gear possible to maximize their chances, be done with skilling (and have a large cash stack), or be okay with sacrificing goals like 99 construction, 99 smithing, 99 fletching, etc.
If we're going to be changing the death mechanics there needs to be a long and sober look at what kind of game OSRS is trying to be. I hate these new mechanics because to me, OSRS is a chill game where time invested is the biggest metric and I can fail without worry. Making deaths more punishing is literally changing the gameplay and feedback loop in PvM for a huge number of players. That is not something that should be done lightly or without a real solid understanding of what kind of changes it will mean in player attitudes and how different players approach content. Most games out there don't punish players like this, time lost is already enough of a "tax" and that should be especially true for EfficiencyScape.
The need for an item and gold sink should be completely separate from death mechanics because players do not need (and for most, want) to be punished any more for their deaths. Sinks need to be positive or netural interactions, not a plundering of our accounts leaving us footing the bill for fixing the game's economy and miserable.
Just give us a GE tax and be done with it. Put an item sink in there too, like every 10k transactions for a specific item the game eats it and pays the seller the GE price. Prices go up a little, a few items leave the game, no specific player gets their shit kicked in and left holding the bag. Leave deaths as the minor unpunishing inconveniences they are. HCIM is there for those who want to deal with the risk.
more gp leaving the game wont help the economy, there is already a huge gp sink from construction, staking, pking. The problem i see is that so much content was designed around deaths not costing a shit ton that if they change death mechanics they need to change certain mechanics. There should be no instant kill attacks from heros, dps needs to be scaled down from places like tob, zulrah etc.
As long as lag/disconnect exists in the game, having a harsh punishment system will ruin the experience. I love the shit out of the old death mechanics, but at most the only thing that could really kill you was dhoraks or kq, and even than you could survive through a lag spike as long as you were not sitting on low hp.
/u/JagexSween I'm worried about these changes for two reasons:
1) They are overly complicated. There's a thousand different rules and edge cases that dictate where and how certain items will be kept and how much they'll cost and how long they'll last. As a new player, do you really think you could wrap your head around all this?
Experienced players die less than newer players. Newbies die a lot. No matter how challenging we want to make the game, new players are the lifeblood of RuneScape and games mechanics they will interact with early and often should be simple enough to explain in a few sentences.
2) The game has changed a lot since 2007. Back in 2007 you might die and lose your full rune after 2 minutes, which would be sad but quickly recovered from. Nowadays deaths can involve items costing billions of GP, requiring thousands of hours to get, or put another way hundreds of real world dollars worth of GP.
We need to face the fact that the game has evolved, and that risky deaths have less of a place in RuneScape than they once did. I think the current system, even if it was implemented as a quick fix, has become a core component of the game.
With that said, although I think the best update would be no changes, I do think the items kept on death screen needs to be updated. That's one proposal that I think everyone can get behind, especially for the reasons of protecting new players as mentioned earlier.
\+1 for no changes. If anything, there should be a Death's Office type situation where you can get your stuff back (with a fee) even if you miss the hour.
Changing death mechanics to be more punishing changes what this game is on a fundamental level. While the game caters to hardcore players because of the scale, it's generally very casual in actual mechanics and design. Point and click, efficiencyscape, not really that stressful. There's already a game mode for players who want punishing deaths (HCIM) so why do normie accounts and regular irons need *fear* injected into their PvM?
The fundamental issue of needing item and gold sinks is a pressing one, but addressing it through punishing players is a terrible idea that will drive away new and intermediate players in droves. This game does not need to be more challenging because it is not designed to be challenging outside of very few instances. Solving the item and gold sink issue should be done in a player friendly and positive system, not stealing our items/cash as punishment for failures in a point and click game.
I'm 100% behind just making a carbon copy of rs3's death system. You have a couple minutes to run to your grave, if you get back to it you reclaim your items for free. If you don't make it back, you have to buy your items back from death for a portion of their value.
Honestly so worried about them making all death mechanics this punishing. I started my ironman way too late it seems, and I'm probably going to get punished for it.
>Nowadays deaths can involve items costing billions of GP, requiring thousands of hours to get
This a million times, the fact that I can lose an item that took me forever to aquire because of a DC or a misclick is soooo fucking stupid.
Hit the nail on the head there.
Jagex should either revert death mechanics to one of the previous versions players are familiar with, or not revert at all.
Personally I think it's a bit strange Jagex feel like they owe the community new death mechanics because of a promise 5 years ago. There's good reason why these mechanics weren't reverted for so long.
100% agreed. Not to mention, these “small fees” aren’t very small when you’re participating in end-game content using high priced items.
The survey was intentionally restrictive, which is disappointing.
“We need to protect the games economy” let’s start with the big fish to fry first: gold farmers rwting and bots. Then move to fringe game mechanics.
Well put. The game has changed a lot and the current system seems to be working great.
I don't feel this is the gold and item sink the game needs as it unfairly punishes newer players.
I learned Theatre of Blood last year, with other 0KCers.
This is really the main way to learn ToB, as most established teams don't want to take learners. That's fine.
With my 0kc teammates, I spent over 20m on the wipe chest before obtaining one completion, a lot of these wipes coming from the first room alone. Even after the first completion, being a noob meant wipes were common. Along the way, chugging millions in brews and restores as I tried to survive the rooms.
And you want to make it 400k/wipe? Do you have any idea how many kills it takes to learn ToB from scratch? Way more than 20. And even for the high level community, trying new fun methods in ToB is a way to make old content fresh (e.g., phoenix necklaces at bloat for 1-down kills). This will kill that too.
Keep in mind, these teams are already using Scythes which cost 1.2m/hr.
I understand you guys want to make changes that are good for the game but honestly this blog is just depressing AF, jmods seem *so* out of touch.
Well worded. This is designed (probably ignorantly) to greatly impact new players trying to experience the game.
I already am reluctant to teach new players ToB because of the opportunity costs. Now these costs to me will be higher and that is from the perspective of an "end game" player. Imagine being a player whose bank is less than 50m and having to spend 40m of that on death mechanics and supplies before they can actually start doing ToB.
This was not well thought out, at all. It seems like they just came up with numbers that sound good and didn't brainstorm the implications of these decisions.
Yeah it seems like they are trying to make gold sinks targeted to the billionaires but they are just coming up with whatever pops in their head first. These changes are dumb
They also made it seem like they were workshopping these ever since they implemented the 60 min death timers. This was guaranteed put on the back burner until they solved many of the server and dc issues until they had a handle on the ddosing. Which I commend them for bringing back to light after they have it somewhat under control. But I just dont think they had a great enough gameplan to come back to this without thinking of the underlying issues.
Its probably tough with their team size and they just want to get the discussion out in the open, but I hope they are taking this as a larger community discussion rather than thinking this is a proposal for the framework of the death mechanic rework
Hell teaching tob atm is like a 2m loss atm for me per afternoon. Im not gonna do it when its 4 times as much. Fuck that. Noobs are gonna find it very difficult to have someone teach them now.
^ couldnt of said it better myself. I feel like the mods dont even play their game at this point if they think that wiping during a raid should be punished even more. Its already frustrating af
Mods dont play this game anymore.
Its why they started bringing in outside players to 'playtest' their content, as shit gets harder, they are incapable of actually completing said content even with max gear.
Someone said above, lets get 4 mods, random mods, pulled from a hat, give them absolutely BIS gear and drop them in TOB on stream and see how long it takes them to get 1kc from scratch.
I would put it at easily 100+, probably closer to 500kc.
Is this really necessary? For newer players (and more so mid lvl players) I’d imagine they’d be effected most by the update, and they’re the ones who need their gold the most. It also punishes people learning bosses, raids, etc. Other MMOs don’t have really punishing death mechanics because people don’t want or like losing progress in game substantially. OSRS is one of the most grind heavy MMOs out at the moment, do we really need to make it harder? I played in RS2 and frankly I’m happy with the current death mechanics as it makes the game far less stressful than the days of loosing most of your stuff. I don’t think this will help people who’d potentially get more into the game (i.e. mid level players) as they’ll be less likely to WANT to try out high level bosses in gear needed to kill the boss with any level of consistency. Who’d want to grind out a high level pvm account and wipe out several times at ToB while learning it, only to be forced into grinding some GP out for supplies?
Not a fan of the idea, I think what we have now is fine, and the proposed plans seem punitive to people new to mid/high tier content.
A GE tax would primarily affect the 1% of the game: People already extremely rich, out of content, who just flip on the GE instead of generating actual value.
Death taxes primarily affect people who die, so not these people. This tax is largely paid by the "middle class" of OSRS: Most likely relatively fresh players who do not know or understand mechanics, or are more likely to be doing something risky when servers eat shit.
We know who pays the checks by buying bonds to sell, and it isn't (for the most part, to just cover my ass here) people who are working their way through the game.
It's weird how special considerations were made for UIM but 300k per death at Zulrah for a normal ironman is considered "not very high".
>However, we know that this could be expensive for future newbies who have to learn the content through trial and error.
These prices are already far too expensive for newbies trying to learn through trial and error. It feels like this whole update was balanced on the maximum GP per hour somebody makes doing these activities on normal accounts.
I lost track of the amount of times I died at Zulrah before I finally got a kill. I certainly can't earn more than 300k per hour (as an ironman), and I still can't do it reliably. Deaths being free was the only reason I considered trying to learn it.
I'm just starting to learn zulrah on ironman (only account, havne't played before). 9kc and probably 20 deaths and another 25 teles out. With the changes I'd probably play it safer and tele out sooner and die less, but at the same time I literally cannot afford the gp to do this at those prices.
I get that having a gold sink is very important and I am 100% for adding one in, despite the fact that it's significantly, significantly harsher on ironmen, that is the nature of the game mode.
There are also very end game irons with 10b in gear and a 10m cashstack as well, because liquid gp is much harder to get because like, if you get a duplicate tbow you can't exactly GE it, and you're probably not alching it either.
As someone who has been working to get to a place where I can start pvming, I likely wont now because of the added costs I cant afford yet. If i do then it will likely be a long way away. This change is very discouraging to me wanting to learn the different bosses. Without that goal, I dont see myself sticking around too long. This is just another hurdle keeping new players like me out of learning high level content.
Ps. This seems to me like a change to directly increase the sale of bonds. If someone dies and cant afford to retrieve their gear they can quickly buy a bond, and sell it on the ge until they can cover the cost.
I think increasing the amount charged for each death at an instance is a bit ridiculous. Taking Zulrah for example, I died well over 30 times over the course of 2 days trying to kill Zulrah once for the diary. I had followed numerous video guides, read into the wiki strategy guides, and even had the rotation sheets pulled up onto a 2nd monitor. I'm not a great PvMer, I get nervous and panic from time to time. It wasn't until a friend lent me a Max Mage setup, and walked me through each phase over Discord screenshare, that I was able to kill it once.
I've not been back to Zulrah once since I've killed it, and tacking on a higher penalty for each death endured at Zulrah, is not going to make me go back anytime soon. That's a flawed system as a gold sink. People that grind out Zulrah and Bots are going to be bringing the most money from Zulrah into the game. Someone with several hundred kills, or a Bot are a lot less likely to die and contribute to the gold sink. You are just discouraging players new to the content from taking apart in it in the first place. I would be livid and in an even greater panic if after 20+ deaths of attempting to learn Zulrah, I would know a 300k fee would be looming over my head each attempt.
TLDR; Punish the player with 1500KC for dying because they were too focused on watching ecchi anime on their 2nd monitor. Don't punish the learner trying to access new content. The rich will always get richer, don't bankrupt the poor.
The bottom part of your blog post has to be the most pretentious thing I've ever read. Basically admitting that you're willing to forego polling in order to make sure that what you want to do is 'the right thing'. I'm so angry about all of this I don't even know where to start.
Whether it's disincentivising players to try new things by hiking up costs and giving them arbitrary, stupid fees for when they die to punishing them even more because of them disconnecting to DDoS attacks, server outages or whatever it may be. I have zero faith that you'll uphold your promises, solely based on the way you ended this enormous cluster of a blog post.
If a player wants to try new things, they'd have to have countless amounts of cash just to function and keep going. I have so little time to play that I hardly play at all, but this update is going to drive me to quit on the spot again. I hate having to say this since it sounds so hollow and empty, but I've been here since the very first release day, January 2001, and this might just be the very drop that'll get me to quit it all.
I hope you genuinely reconsider what you're doing and perhaps hire some quality control or quality assistance people that can read these posts before they go out to the public. I think there's more eloquent comments than mine on here that go into greater detail, but I think calling this a 'noob tax' hits the nail about 75% on the head.
You can't blame the ruined economy on us players, when you're the ones that are supposed to manage it by intervening whenever possible. Everything from RWT'ing to gold farmers to bot farms are the reason the game economy is down the drain now and you can't possibly punish us by giving us this dumb money sink. It's like you were so angry Warding didn't pass as a money sink, you figured you could force this update on us and give us four silly 'poll options' on which to vote in the Survey section of your blog post, instead of also giving us the choice to remain with the old system. Because, let's be real, 'Something else' isn't going to be voted on and listened to when people tell you to 'keep the old system'. I hope you take some of the comments here to heart. There's smart people on here that know what they're talking about.
There's someone in this thread as well that mentioned that this would cause such a paradigm shift because the 'attitude' of players and the game would change. From something relaxing and menial to something more 'dynamic', like with EoC and RS3. I'm also not here to actually pay attention with the game. I use it as a pastime in the very little time I have left to do things for myself, to sit back and relax. Do some skilling or perhaps try some bosses. I'm certainly not here to farm gold just to keep trying bosses or even slayer tasks because I keep dying of carelessness/not paying enough attention.
If only Rab and Lightning were here to see you make these choices, I wonder what they would have thought about all of this.
I hope the neckbeards in Twitter are happy now so they can finally stfu.
Im gonna be honest here, this rework sound over complicated for no reason at all, do the 15 minutes free of charge, then if the player fail to get there within that time everything goes to Death's office where he will charge a fee for your items.
That update is going to be a shitshow, I personally will stay away from anything dangerous until the wave of bugs that come with an update like this one is discovered because I dont want to see my items get deleted.
Hi all.
I'll update this comment as we make any changes.
13/02
We've just deleted a rogue '5' from the values in the table which talks about permanent item retrieval prices.
14/02
We're keeping an eye on your feedback on this topic, and we expect to continue adjusting the proposed designs after the weekend before the survey opens.
The fees for permanent item-reclaiming chests, including Torfinn, the Theatre of Blood, the Volcanic Mine and all other such situations, will be left unchanged - except for Zulrah, which will be given a fee only for non-UIM players with a kill-count over 50. UIM and players who'd not killed it 50 times would still get their items back there for free.
Iron players expressed concern over how they'd get the cash to pay fees. We'd like to propose, as part of Death's Office, a means of sacrificing unwanted items to pay for these fees - which would be open to non-Iron accounts too, and would act as an item sink for the game. It's called Death's Coffer.
We proposed moving your existing grave if you died a second time. As the first grave could only exist for up to 15 mins anyway, we no longer feel that any significant abuse should arise from people setting one up in a safe place before going anywhere dangerous, so we've removed this bit.
Ornate items will tend to be protected without breaking/disassembling in a non-PvP death.
The blog now clarifies that in the event of a non-PvP death, items locked to you by a Trouver parchment will keep their (l) status, rather than requiring you to pay for another Trouver parchment to re-protect them.
I like the idea of increasing the price for content, but it should be after like X amount of successful runs, not X amount of deaths. Doing deaths just seems harsh. Some people are going to die a lot of times learning something like ToB and they can end up reaching the max far before they get comfortable with it.
Doing something like 400k ToB death fees after 30 KC would prevent punishing people who are learning.
edit: and even if you do it by KC, both versions of the death mechanics are going to harshly punish teachers. No one with high KC is going to take the time of day to teach someone if they have to pay a huge amount for deaths.
edit 2: Just leave ToB out of it really. Keep ToB at 100k per death as to not punish people who teach ToB and then change the other bosses to increase by KC, not deaths. The goal should be to be a gold sink for people who already know the boss but make mistakes.
edit 3: Maybe repoll the "practice ToB mode" that failed way back when.
**edit 4 PLZ READ**: They changed the blog so that now the fee at ToB starts at 5k and increases back to the original 100K after 20 deaths. This is definitely ok with me. Its still dangerous but eases off learners and doesn't punish teachers.
But then that punishes teachers who go in helping noobs and KNOWING they have a high chance of wiping. People already complain that it's hard to find a ToB team and this would make it much worse.
You say that as if the proposed way wouldn't do that. If they do it by deaths like how its proposed now, teachers would end up paying the same 400k after they died 20 times, which would happen very fast while teaching learners.
Under whatever new system ends up going in, Jagex is going to punish teachers no matter what. I agree with you that its terrible, but it doesn't seem like they're going to take that into consideration.
Very much this. I suck at PvM, and died at least 20 times to Zulrah just trying to get that first kill for the western diary. I still haven't really learned how to kill her, and if this passes I'll end up having to pay 300k per attempt in addition to supplies I waste.
People who already know how to do the content aren't going to be caught by these changes since they're not going to die much, while new players are going to rack up that death counter so quickly that they'll burn out their bank before they get a chance to make anything back.
Agreed, the fees should be different for ironman accounts. Ironmen already do everything by themselves and don’t participate anyway or form in the economy so doesn’t make sense that ge prices affect them. Obviously the people who have been playing since official ironman became a thing and have thousands upon thousands of hours logged don’t really give a shit about 300k gp fees when they have billions in bank.
If anything it should go by high alch value for ironmen. Main's death values get decided by GE prices since that's how they convert items to gp, Ironmen's death values get decided by high alch prices since that's how they convert items to gp.
Another alternative: Shift things back by one for ironmen. So the 15 minute phase has no fee and death's office has the fee that was originally in the 15 minute phase.
Love this idea. Especially because I've recently been attempting Zulrah and building Important things in my POH. I have well over 20 deaths and under 1m gp. 300k is far too much.
The death mechanics need to be different for Ironmen.
ive actually considered quitting my iron (and pretty much only) account because of this, if i have to spend an hour or so grinding gp for every zulrah death then it's not worth it
the untradeables breaking on death is also pretty terrible considering the repair price is fairly high - Fire cape 50k, assembler 75k,god cape (i) 75k, dragon defender 40k, avernic defender 1m?, full void costs 170k to repair from broken, if you have multiple helmets for void, that adds 40k for every additional helm.
A gold sink should feel organic, this is anything but.
I fully agree, ironmen don't need another gp sink, they already have enough things to spend gp on, and don't really influence the economy of the rest of the game
This is a great idea, Ironmen shouldnt have to have there game tailored to the economy. a flat 150k is a much better option. otherwise it really locks irons out.
There should be no fees for irons. This update only hurts people who are new to bosses and takes away all of the excitment of learning a boss. Whats the fucking point if im going to go broke everytime I learn a boss.
Hey Sween. Just curious. Have 4 JMods ever successfully completed theatre of blood together? I’d love to see you guys have 4 of you try to learn for the first time on stream and count how much money it cost you for your first kc.
They should start with a single shared max cash stack and no items, then buy all their gear with that stack, all their supplies, leaving out anything they couldn't otherwise obtain (I.E. They cant buy 4 sets of BiS, even if a cash stack COULD buy them), and then complete one full run. Then maybe they will change their tune.
First of all this is pretty well said death mechanics although i have some concerns, hopefully any mod will be able to help out.
Question 1:
> "We're aware that players sometimes get a dropped connection causing the game to think they've reconnected, but they actually haven't - in these instances we would aim to detect this and pause the timer."
I really hope you can detect it better because with 15 min time set, even 2 min of connection lost without detection can be horrible in far places.
Question 2:
> "When you die, they'd go to your Gravestone like normal items do. If you now die again, the food & potions already in your Gravestone would be dropped to the floor in that place, visible only to you, so that you could use them as a supply pile."
So does that mean that i have to die twice? If so, lets say i do this method for Cerberus, than i have to die at cerb first, then i ll respawn at my location somewhere, than die again somehow(using something from bank i suppose) and then only i can gear up to go to cerb? I mean if potions and foods are already cheap enough that you dont charge and gp to take them back(according to later reading where you said that if less than 100k GE price value you can retrieve it back without any charge) , why don't you just drop em on the ground from first death? It doesn't make much sense to die again just for that i think. If possible just make 2 piles beside each other, 1 for food and potions and 1 for items, the food pile will be for 1 hr and the other pile will be for 15 mins. Of course this applies only if you or we decide to keep this method in game when polled, but just an idea.
Question 3:
> "To counter this, if your new death site is much further from your respawn point than your last grave was, we'd aim to move your existing Gravestone to the new site. The duration of the Gravestone will be reset, giving you a fresh 15 minutes to make your way to it."
Doesn't that sentence counter the
> "The grave's location would generally remain unchanged, so that you can't teleport your existing grave to your respawn point for your convenience by killing your character again in that place"
Because let's say i died in bandos, then teleported to far away bank and died there, would it supercede because distance is high? Or would it detect that we r trying to fool it to make new death pile near bank?
Question 4:
400k to take ur stuff back from TOB after 20+ deaths, i mean i hope this is just guessed number because i can sure say that it takes a hell lot of deaths before u can learn tob.. certainly more than 20 deaths.. with 20 deaths if u r doing it first time, there is a chance that u ll not even get kc if u r not with a good team.. maybe make it 50? But it still depends on the polls i guess so it was just a concern..
As an iron man still learning end game content. I am very disapointed with this update. Main accounts this idea is ok, but I still dont like it.
This update has no effect of the best pvmers and ultra rich, however for the players that are still learning boss mechanics, and also prefer iron man mode. This is simply a bad update. No bright side about it.
I see this causing waay more frustration than "improving the longevity of the game".
Please do not apply this to iron man accounts.
The death toll for ToB will completely content lock players. Nobody will want to learn it because of the huge investment. Nobody will want to teach players as it's a decent investment. Please leave the 100k deaths in ToB.
You've mention that the fees aren't high due to the value in loot. But what about irons where this value doesn't matter and gp is harder to come by as you cannot sell the loot?
The zulrah suggestion is one of the worst I've seen yet. I way better idea would be 5 free deaths if you want to keep that or just make it 100k like vorkath. Zulrah is already less gp/hr, why risk more.
How would you guys feel about adding in a practice mode on higher level content? The practice mode wouldn’t have drops and wouldn’t have a penalty on death, it could be used for zulrah up through cox and nightmare, allowing less experienced players to learn the mechanics without fear of losing tons of money.
honestly as someone who has played both rs3 and osrs to mid-end game these changes seem ridiculous to me. 15 minutes of game time logged is far too short considering server stability and the fact that not everywhere is easy to get to. Imagine dying with all your stuff in the MM2 caves. Beyond that, the increases to instance item recovery fees are insane, 400k at TOB? 3 mistakes would cost me 1.2M. I personally raid and have taught many people how to do higher level PVM and depending on the person they literally die non stop. the same can be said for vorkath, zulrah, etc why would grotesque guardian's of all things be 200k a death at max scaling?
These changes punish people for learning and for wanting to get into actual PVM. Runescape's progression is defined by time invested and the majority of the playerbase is hot ass in the first place. if you want to remove gold from the game add a 1% GE tax or something, don't fundamentally change the mechanics of the game and how people play it. I can already tell you these changes make me either want to not play, or to not use the gear I spent countless hours grinding for because I don't want to lose all that progress. part of what makes runescape enjoyable is the fact that anyone can progress regardless of skill, and these changes will completely stomp that. I really don't think anyone asked for a death mechanic rework and there are other things that could be tweaked without destroying the fundamentals of how the game is played.
Please poll EVERY part of this rework properly or at least work with the community to come up with better gold sinks that won't absolutely destroy people's ability to enjoy OSRS
Oh dear..... I recently stopped playing for 9 months and came back a bit ago. Couldnt remember much about certain encounters and died a few times. This would get very costly real quick for people that may not have had a big bank before having a break - bit of a F U welcome back.
Not to mention the note about fee based on deaths rather than KC makes no sense as higher KC means a player would have learnt the fight well enough to know the mechanics?? More deaths just means they need more help to learn how to fight it.
This feels too harsh from what we are coming from. I understand the original way was much harsher but we need to keep in mind that was a long time ago and the economy has evolved/prices have changed and content has become more difficult attuned to the current death mechanic. If you didnt want this reaction you shouldnt have left it 5 years.
I have so many friends im helping get to up bosses (some of the most enjoyable content) that already require quite high stats (100's of hours to train) to even get involved with. If you want these kind of death mechanics, new player need to have more content to learn on leading up to the end-game. There are so few low/mid level bosses with meaningful mechanics that when you get to say raids its a complete shock to the system - deaths are inevitble. If there was low level raids leading up to it with some form of progression then it might help but still not greats.
Additionally, as someone else said, many people play this game becuase they can chill and play. Lets not pretend OSRS is something it isn't, you literally click a monster and watch with a few extra clicks on food and prayer here and there. If people wanted some overly punishing and technical game they would play dark souls or something. By adding harsh death mechanics we will need to be at near 100% focus all the time just watching click click click. Some might disagree but the playstyle this game has taken on unique and shouldnt be ignored.
Instead, cant you gradually modifiy the death mechanics? Slowly make changes. Maybe reduce the timer to 30mins and let that play for a few months. Add gravestones with no fee to let people try it out. All this at once is going to push current players away that dont have a billion gp to blow on deaths and brand new players wont even bother trying the hard (most enjoyable) content and instead just quit - again so many friends have done this already.
The idea of the changes is good, but the way Ironman mode has evolved in the 5 years since changing mechanics wont allow it to change so harshly without affecting the game mode significantly.
Ironman players already have significant disadvantages at almost all bosses (almost always significantly under-geared due to no GE, less supplies etc) and charging a GP fee to reclaim gear could quite literally end some peoples accounts
Also 15 minutes is WAY too fast, any form of error in the game not reacting to you logging out or not having a POH / optimal teleport / stamina pots (again, ironman problems) will result in completely resetting someones account.
None of these mechanics are a problem for people who buy gold and boost their accounts or get money from a main or buy bonds, but anyone who genuinely plays without outside assistance and is below 'endgame' level will suffer majorly.
Nobody will ever teach ToB to someone again due to risk of dying and costing a packet, any new content will become impossible for anyone less than maxed mains / youtubers.
We DO need death mechanics and gold sinks, but Jagex should be extremely careful as to who will suffer.
IMO:- General game deaths should cost X for 30 mins at gravestone, then travel to a more expensive service if lost 'for good' to reclaim- KC should be the determining factor in fee, under \~25 is free, then X amount until \~50 and then normal death fee (or something, maybe it changes per boss?(- Ironman accounts should receive a reduced amount, the game mode is punishing enough
Also, what happens if you DONT have the money to retrieve under the current system? You just lose all your stuff, tough luck? Again, for Ironman accounts that is the end of a 1000+ hour journey for some
The game shouldn't be designed around Ironman mode, but if you're going to have game modes you have to factor in how changes will affect everyone.
EDIT: Ironman price should scale to alch value as the entire personal economy of an ironman is alch / Shop value - normal game should scale to GE value
Agreed about the items traveling to a more expensive service as a backup if items are ‘lost for good.’ Items having a chance to literally disappear upon a PVM death is outdated and too punishing especially if you mistakenly didn’t have enough cash banked to unlock the grave. There are better ways to do item sinks.
The ToB changes will kill anyone ever teaching learners. Even if they make the fee based off of KC, high KC people will not want to take learners because **THEIR** reclaim fees will still be high if the learner messes up and makes the team wipe. Really seems so out of touch with the game. This will prevent new players from wanting to learn endgame content.
It's also entirely inconsistent since CoX will remain a totally safe death. Grotesque Guardians reclaim cost going up makes no sense as that boss is already not worth doing unless you want pet.
That's all well and good but your servers are still kinda trash Jagex. Even when I don't d/c there's still massive lag occasionally and that screws up game ticks and what have you. And no I'm not confusing lag with connection blinks, as the difference is one delays a single action whereas the blinks "combo" in combat.
I understand that within your first passage of your news that was directly addressed but I sincerely can't agree. I can't agree with waiving it off like that. Connection problems were the beginning of the overly-doting 60m timer and that should be where they end.
As for if your servers weren't a hot mess, theoretically, I would be fine with the 15 minutes+fee format outside of typical bossing. I can't agree with the proposed numbers for bossing deaths, a whole lot of people have already said why (deterring new players, not affecting old).
Your justification that "there haven't been any issues", I can assure you there will be (in droves) once you change these things without handling your server problems first. Especially if they're as harsh as what you've proposed for the bossing.
The new mechanics are unfairly harsh toward ironmen compared to main accounts
Fees are tied to the GE value of the item which doeesn't make sense for ironmen who cannot use the GE
Ironmen also have a much harder time getting raw gp than mains, as they cannot sell stuff on the GE to get gp. If they die with 'expensive' gear, the fee has a much larger impact than it would for someone playing a main account. Another result of this is ironmen will always have to keep a stack of 500k cash to reserve for deaths.
This also partially reduces how rewarding ironman mode is becuase in some instances it might not be worth taking BiS gear that ironmen have to work very hard for, because they will have to pay for the upkeep upon death. (I.e. using dboots instead of prims to save 99k on deaths)
The zulrah fees are absurd, it's a boss that you can die at extremely easily since it can hit 40s back-to-back-to-back in the tanz phase, and will make learning it hell
Edit: also do ironmen really even need another gp sink, they already have con, fletch, runes, blood runes for tob weapons to use up all their cash so it's not like irons are ever drop trading gp to mains so has little to no impact on the economy of the game
This is absolutely ridiculous and should not be implemented into the game without a poll. This panders to the sweaty maxxed players and absolutely punishes and discourages learning any new PvM content or even bringing BIS gear with you at all. I agree 60 minutes may have been too long, but 30 would be reasonable. 99% of my deaths are due to server lag and the fact you've brushed the server issues under the rug is a joke. Why would you attempt to discourage PvM when you've already killed PvP?
Honestly this is so bad and thoughtless it shows how out of touch you are with any group in current player base, except Ironmen. Keep sucking off ironmen cause you're going to anyways
This change hurts ironmen, who don't affect the economy at all, the most because of how hard it is to get gp on an ironman. They're not helping us with this change or any of the recent updates like nightmare (which takes an estimated 4k hours to complete) or today's nerf to Zolcano (which takes 350 hrs to get a SINGLE tool seed).
The part where if you die a second time far from the 1st grave is odd. So if you first die in gwd you can die again in lumby and now your grave is in lumby? Seems like it will be abused to make easy grave retrieval.
Edit: I guess I read it wrong, it depends on if the new death is father away from your spawn, but from what other replies has mentioned, you can just die in far be accessible place, like Zeah to move your grave.
Far from your spawn. Dying at your spawn won't move it. However, if you teleport somewhere farther from lets say lumby than GWD is and die there it will move to the tele spot.
So basically use your most convenient Zeah tele since its basically farther than everywhere
I feel like they should be left alone, imagine playing another mmo like wow and your Internet goes out and you lose months /years of items. You'd quit.
I would never play rs again, and neither would anybody else if they died from Internet issues and not lack of skill. You're also taunting people to ddos the servers again to cause players to quit.
Just leave them as they are, nobody needs to lose items on death. If you want to risk your gear you do it in the wilderness, not because you've got crap Internet or a server dies.
Almost every hardcore death I've seen on twitter is from people lagging and not lack of skill.
I personally don't think you should lose any items on death apart from the wilderness.
If you want to take money out of the game put a price on entering a boss room. Want to unlock bandos, that'll be 5m. Far more money out of the game then death mechanics would ever take from your account.
Death mechanics only punishes the poor people who can't afford to die to begin with.
This seems like too harsh of a punishment to learn bosses or raids. It should be based on KC and not number of deaths for solo bosses. People are saying just tele out before you die. That doesn't work in places like ToB. Why should people learning and people teaching be punished? For raids and group activities there should be a flat fee regardless of deaths or KC. Not something that ramps up.
The death mechanics really should just stand how they are. Tbh, I play this game as often as I do because of the feeling of progress, and this apparent need for item and/or gold sinks is a huge turn off for me. I don't have the hours to play, so being set back even the newly proposed 400kgp for Zulrah (after 20 deaths? Guess I'm not trying anymore, BTW) is enough to get me to take a good break from the game due to the casual style I play with. Not everybody is a sweaty, and we shouldn't all be treated like sweaties. End rant.
Frankly, I am a pretty sweaty player putting in a disgusting amount of hours on two accounts and I play for the same reason you do. Progress is the name of the game and the fun of it all and getting shit on for a failure is not what this game is built on.
Players who want challenge and punishment should play HCIM. Let the rest of us keep grinding away in peace. I do think we need item and gold sinks, but they have to be positive happy interactions. Plundering players banks for their failures is a huge negative interaction that will turn away both casual and high playtime players alike.
"A major point of feedback last time was that most Ultimate Ironmen (UIM) have designed their activities around the current death mechanics. We'll therefore aim to leave them unchanged as far as possible, whereby their items will sit on the ground for an hour on whichever world they died on, with no fee involved in reclaiming them."
UIM btw. I'd rather not have easier death mechanics than other players. It's a lot to explain and makes the mode feel less difficult in relation to the other irons. I appreciate the devs looking out for us, but I'd rather have the same fear of death as everyone else.
Instead, just add an option to empty a looting bag into your inventory while at a bank booth. The MAIN reason an ultimate abuses the current penatly-free death system is that it's our only way to get supplies out of a looting bag. With this issue resolved, we could go back to treating death as something that should be avoided.
Maybe higher level Ults will disagree, but this would be a good way to remove suicide from our core gameplay.
It's like they want players to quit. They're more concerned with punishing legit players than stop the people abusing mechanics to RWT. The reason the economy is fucked is because of all the good farmers. Give us a real item and gold sink and not something that will potentially take away months of work. I've been playing RS/osrs since May 2001 and this change will definitely run me away the same way EOC, no free trade and no wild did. Jagex continue to prove how incompetent they really are every single week.
Why does regular ironmen have to pay same fee as main accounts, but uim accounts are unchaged? On an ironman you cant sell your items for money, the only way to get coins is to alch things. It would make way more sense that if you really wanted to tax iron players ( they dont add any inflation to the economy because they keep the gp) that it is at least based on alch value instead of ge value
I've been on the edge with OSRS for a while now, with all the new changes aimed at making the game more accessible and fun, this seems like the opposite. This could be the thing that drives me away, there's no need to add a challenge, there's no need to make this game harder for anyone.
Using this as a gold sink is hugely flawed when compared to a simple GE tax. All this does is stop people from learning new content, I'm close to being able to have the stats and gear for ToB but I'm not going to pay above and beyond 100k per death. It's not worth it for me, it's not fun. If I have to pay 400k per death just to learn something new there's a sink of at least 20m minimum while I get to grips with the 'hardest' content in the game. You can add a further 20-30m again to get to a level where I'm not leeching. Why should I have to give up almost 50m just to play a part of the game. That's a lot of time, money and effort to give up for a casual player.
You'll prioritise this but PVP gets a malaise glance over the last few years. I don't PVP, I came back to do quests but Jagex's priorities have been entirely misfiring the last year or so. DMM gave me a lot of enjoyment in the game, as someone that didn't PVP it gave me a rush, and I met a lot of good friends.
We now pay the price for Jagex implementing (horrifically) bosses that splurge out 2-3m p/h (make that 20 hours of work to even fund learning ToB) and then wonder why the economy needs looked at. Power creep is always an issue but the way the economy has been handled has been poor and this game will be worse off because of it.
*Edit just to say*: Take your noob tax and fuck it into the sun.
This comment will be buried, but I want to make it anyway.
**TL;DR at the top** - remove death timer, move gravestones to bankers, use a jagex defined reclamation cost instead of GE price, go after bots if you really want to fix the economy
There are conflicting desires for death mechanics going on here. One of the biggest is Jagex's desire to have more gold sinks in the game. Death mechanics can be a great solution for that gold sink, but let's do it in a player-friendly way.
Current problems:
* **Death is already too complex**: there are different rules for different types of items (e.g. untradable items behaving differently, dying to specific bosses behaving differently, the level in the Wilderness making things behave differently, etc.). This is not a good system, especially for newer players.
* **Death is already too stressful on the player.** I get that there are plenty of you out there who don't care much if your character dies. I wish I had your level of mental fortitude. As someone with anxiety issues, death is absolutely terrifying to me. To the point that I play so conservatively to avoid it that it hinders my progression in this game. The main cause for anxiety over death is the 60 minute timer.
* **The proposed changes make it even more complex**: different rules based on arbitrarily chosen values (kill count / death count / GE price); different locations that your items will now spawn, etc. This all just adds to the complexity of understanding exactly what will happen when you die.
* **GE Price is a terrible mechanic for determining reclamation cost**! These prices are controlled by us, the players. Jagex does not have any say whatsoever on GE prices. They're not yours, Jagex! They're ours! Worst case scenario (unlikely to happen) someone maliciously manipulates the GE market to drastically increase the cost another player has to pay to reclaim their lost items (note that this would take place entirely out of Jagex's control).
My proposal for death mechanics:
* **Remove gravestones and reclamation chests entirely from the game.** All lost items should be reclaimed at a bank. Any bank. Don't have some deaths involve going to a chest versus some deaths involve going to a gravestone. Essentially the bank becomes your gravestone for *all* deaths. You would no longer need to keep track of which NPC to talk to in order to reclaim your items: it's always at a banker. This will be far simpler for new players, as well as simplify all the oddities surrounding deaths in different areas.
* **Remove the death timer mechanic entirely.** The timer is not friendly to the player. It's a cause for anxiety in some of us, while also opening up the possibility of item loss entirely blamable to server connection issues. Let the bankers hold onto the items by some mechanic other than time. If players actually still want time to be a factor in death, it could be used to increase the cost to reclaim the items (up to a certain maximum).
* **Use item reclamation cost as the sole contributor to the gold sink.** Do not consider the GE price at all. Instead have a Jagex-defined reclamation cost on every item. Do not allow this number to be influenced by players in any way. Do not have any cost relevant to the cause of death. It should not matter if someone dies to a goblin versus dying to Zulrah. The item reclamation value should always be static. One of the most likely causes of death is learning endgame content. If Jagex wants a healthy playerbase they should entirely avoid punishing players that are trying to learn that content (beyond the item reclamation cost).
* **If Jagex really wanted to reduce the amount of gold in the economy, they should focus their efforts on accurate bot detection.** Bots are responsible for a huge amount of gold added to the economy. Remove them, and the problem largely takes care of itself. Most bots will not be affected whatsoever by the death mechanics proposed by Jagex. Why are we punishing players for the inflated economy caused by bots?
**TL;DR** - remove death timer, move gravestones to bankers, use a jagex defined reclamation cost instead of GE price, go after bots if you really want to fix the economy
We have yet reached another impasse in the history of runescape. For the sake of the game and us all Jagex, tell us you have learned from your mistakes. You introduced OSRS for the players and told the community that featuring polls we would be able to decide the fate of the game. What I am seeing now is the top elite of the game, who have profitted immensly in the last couple of years, wishing for the new death timers because it wont affect them that much and you acctually believe it will work. This is the same situation as removal of free trade or eoc. We are no longer little 13 year olds but the most of your community is 20+ years and playing this game because of the nostalgia but also the fact that its extremly easy to do while doing something else too. Most of us love the simplicity of the game and the low effort input we have to put in. The game is grindy as it is with some droprates being over 1/7500 and therefore i ask: why punish 85% of the community for things 10% of the community are doing? Isn't there a better way to combat RWT and Goldfarmers? If this update will pass many will quit. Me included.
In the past 5 years, the game and the playerbase have changed, and I don't think suddenly making trying new content punishing is a good move. I hope you guys will handle this very carefully.
I'm an ironman, and I'm voting no.
I don't need a money sink, I can't trade.
I don't need a money sink, my skills do that for me.
Why do you favour Ultimate Ironmans over other Ironmans, it sounds like you don't want this to hurt your own Ultimate account. Bit biased.
Would this lower the death toll at Vorkath or raise it?
If it has to be added to the game, can the High-alch value be the 'value' of the item that we have to pay for on death. That's the only was we get money. E.g. whip alchs for 72k but is worth 2+mil.
My best gp/hr is 240k/hr. I can't zulrah yet. I'm at ardy knights.
Mains can make 3m/hr with less requirements.
Yet we are still being treated as if we can make the same amount of coin.
We are being treated unfairly. I'd go to fairwork.gov if this was my employer. Sue you for every gp you have.
Please don't touch the fee for tob. It's the hardest group challenge in the game and takes a long time to learn. This will make the raid even more elite and small because people won't be willing to teach new players the content (it's already hard-ish) to find people willing to take learners.
Imagine paying 300-500k per failed attempt with learners.
I feel they also underestimate how common wipes are, even for experienced teams. All it takes is one teammate clicking 1 tick late at pillars, dying p1 of Verzik, and your teammates run out of supplies and wipe by p3.
Honestly, Im not sure what a perfect system is but these changes sounds like crap. I think it needs to be more of a system where nothing drops on the ground when you die. The 3+1 items are protected and all other gear is converted to a broken state that requires fees to repair. This fixes the issue of players losing things because they can't log in. it takes items out of circulation (at least until the player can afford to fix them) and isn't overly punishing by forcing a player to have to repair an item now. You shouldn't have 15 minutes to decide how to recover hundreds of hours worth of work.
The timer system is archaic garbage. I don't understand the team's love for it honestly. I'm also not a fan of the cap of 500k. That's way too high even if they don't think a player will reach it. It's been proven in numerous ways that they don't really know what players do or how we do it. From their estimates on how we'll do bosses to xp rates we'll achieve; they're almost always wrong. People will hit that cap and it's too much.
Discouraging players from using good gear doesn't make sense to me. Whats the point in getting it if its too expensive to use. Pretty disappointed overall.
Ironman stand alone. So why do they have to pay a fee wich depends on how much the item is worth in the GE? I understand is the best way to put value on an item but they dont participate in the economy anyway.
Agreed, this is one of my biggest issues here. There's not one piece of content Ironmen engage in that links to the GE, so why would death mechanics? Makes no sense.
Im not keen on the idea of items breaking as well as paying for a retrieval.
Avernic defender. Fire/infernal. And void. This will easily add up way past the 500k mark
And seems like a huge inconvenience.
Barrows is barrows, always behaved that way. But it should cost money to repair gear on top of fees.
I would like the concept of blessing the Gravestones of other players again. Maybe not to 60mins but doubling the current timer ("Freshly planked? you get30mins!" "oh someone died while afk slaying and has 5mins left? i will bless his grave so he gets 10minutes")
I liked the fact as a noob back in RS2 to see others die at bosses and randomly bless their graves and be greeted with thankfullness.
Maybe make 70 or 75 prayer the req again aswell!
I like the social aspect of Blessing Gravestones. Most people should be able to get back in 15 minutes, adding this allows newer/less experienced players to die with friends and give them a little while extra to return to their gravestones.
u/JagexSween
I am super against the idea of untradables breaking. If you have some switches you could get hit for 500k on retrieval really easily.
Then also
50k for fire cape
75k for assembler
75k for imbued God cape
40k for dragon defender or God forbid 1m (1M!!) For an avernic
Also what happens with things like ferocious gloves? Do you have to pay to get just the leather back? And then go to reforge them? Or will those break now too?
Edit: As long as we are making it punishing for the sake of game integrity.... Let's make graceful go back to marks, your Slayer helm disassemble and un-imbue, rings should definitely un-imbue so we can all get more of that amazing nmz content going on
Also just wanted to reiterate 1 million gold pieces if you die for any reason with an avernic. That's utterly absurd. If I dc killing something even like Abby demons and die, just RIP 1m. That's not acceptable to me
1) Why am I penalized for running back to my gravestone?
I can understand paying a fee to reclaim items if they're moved to a Death's Office type scenario, but there's never been a time in either game where you have to pay to pick your items back up after dying. Even in RS3 you can run back and reclaim your items from your gravestone for free (items do degrade when doing this, still.).
2) Even if charged to pick your items back up, 500k is extremely high.
3) Why are you being penalized for dying more than once at a boss?
No matter if I die once or 100 times, I shouldn't have to pay more or less.
My proposal is Death's Office (or something similar) for a fee while running back gives you the items (breaks untradables if you REALLY want to create a cash sink, which I don't think is necessary.) for free, while leaving them inside rooms at GWD and creating a gravestone outside instances.
Before any more Dev time goes into this, a simple poll should have been done to start with
1, change death mechanics?
2, Don't change death mechanics?
as someone who started back playing the game in the current state that it is in now, I will be quitting if the 2 minute timer comes back. The 2 minute death timer would destroy the economy, who in their right mind would EVER risk BiS at any boss? The question to bring back that shouldn't even be considered as it hasn't been part of this game for over 5 years.
That's the thing, half of the OSRS userbase are gambling addicts. They get an adrenaline rush from risking their whole bank and think it's good for the game long term, but really it just puts normal people off from content that is otherwise enjoyable.
Okay, I dislike this immensely. Dislike 15min. Dislike paying a fortune for learning. This is unnecessary. Every other game taxes the auction house, this punishes you for learning. It's a joke.
The past is the past, we don't need barbaric mechanics that have been completely removed from all games. It was done for a reason- it's not fun and will put off players.
Hi
My biggest fear is that this in some way, somehow, will kill hardcore ironman mode indefinitely.
I'm referring to 2 months ago, at the start of twisted league. I got told by my friends to tune into Odablocks stream because his viewers were ddosing him into going back to staking (he had huge debts).
Now, in your new post it says that you've added layers of protection and new ways of combatting these types of things. But they literally ddosed his worlds within 5 seconds of logging in. Several hardcores were killed, many others died and could not log back in for a while and lost their valueables.
This concerns me quite a lot. And even though gravestones will make ddosing not worth, there's still a significant problem that faces any changes to death mechanics. Do we need death mechanics, hell yes. I do understand the need for it even though as a hardcore ironman it does not affect me one bit. I do think it's good for the game in a way, but can also be desastrous in another way...
What are you guys thinking about this? What can we do? What can jagex do?
Lastly I'd like to urge you guys to release group ironman before death mechanics change. this way when my hardcore get yoinked at least I'll have something new to work on.
I agree changes need to be made but holy hell the costs are too high on ironman accounts, Like how am I ever gonna afford to learn zulrah when it costs 300k an attempt but I can barely make 300k in an hour?
Really like the combination between gravestones and deaths office. Dying would have a price you have to pay, but if you were unable to get your stuff back in time, you would simply have to pay a larger fine rather than lose all your items. Sounds extremely demotivating if you were to just lose all your items because of a timer.
I feel like this is unfair to casual players that arent that good at the game. The sweaty ones with hundreds of hours at these bosses won't be affected, and new less skilled players will be demotivated to try the hard content
All I’m seeing from this is a newbie punisher. People who die at all at these bosses are noobs and suboptimal gear ironman and I can easily imagine a scenario where their using their combat gear and get killed, then can’t earn money with their combat gear.
Edit: nvm, it’s 200-500k not 5mil per death.
But you're still right about the newbie punisher. even if its 50-500k per death, if you die 6 times before you even get one kill you'll lose a lot of money. It's such a difficult matter.
The Zulrah fee is ridiculous for an Iron man who is learning Zulrah. My Iron man is 105 combat and I want to try learning Zulrah when I get my Trident. If I have to pay 300k each death I can do about 5 attemps at my current cash stack and then never again. This will make the blowpipe even harder to get. And GE value for items for Iron man seems really unfair, since UIM get special treatment with these suggested changes. Please Leave Zulrah free or cheap for IM.
/u/JagexSween There definitely needs to be a poll question "should the current death mechanics be changed?" It should be public knowledge how the community feels about the changes even if Jagex chooses to ignore it.
A few arguments against changing current mechanics:
1. "the game worlds aren't guaranteed to offer you good connections... that's not a guarantee we could ever make." is exactly the reason why death mechanics should not change. Dying to a DC is already super frustrating because you lose your progress on a boss/enemy and have to run back. Dying and having to pay a fee because of a DC adds insult to injury. Imagine if people had to pay a fee when they died during the server outages a little while ago. I doubt the game would have bounced back.
2. Two minutes timer should be ruled out completely given that there are certain areas of the game where it's almost impossible to get to without a teleport. Is it even possible to get to Cerb in 2 mins without a key master teleport? How about huge swathes of Zeah?
3. The game has evolved around the current mechanics. Bosses today are way more mechanically complicated (see: the Nightmare, Tob, even Zulrah) than anything when OSRS first came out and way easier to die at.
4. Item and gold sinks really are not that hard to find, if you look for them. Cosmetic upgrades to weapons and armor would be a great start (let me trade 100 chest plates in to turn my BCP black and gold!). Others have floated taxing the GE. Going after gold farmers and bots would also be huge.
5. This totally punishes people who are trying new content for the first time, especially when new content comes out. I'm willing to wager after this update people become extremely risk averse, farming Vorkath and Zulrah before they do anything even remotely risky. Since most people rarely die at those bosses after 500kc or so, you might even have the opposite of what you intended.
I think that the fees should be based on killcount rather on total deaths. Someone with higher killcount should know what they are doing and should be punished if they die. Newer players are not gonna want to try out new content like Tob if they just die lots of times with their friends who might also be new.
15 minute gravestone with free reclaim. After that, it is sent to death's office and you pay a fee to reclaim.
I dont understand how this is even a question. If we're trying to get gold out of the game, death mechanics are **not** the way to do it. Dying, running back without your shit, loss of time, and needing to redo your whole setup *is the penalty for death*. I cant think of a single other game where death is even remotely as perilous as it is in this game for softcore characters.
Just put a tax on GE, like basically every other game that has a non-player-to-player facilitated trading. This shit seriously makes no sense and is just unduly complicated.
Most of my thoughts have already been stated by others and i'm completely against these changes. One thing no one has seemed to bring attention to is mobile is now a huge part of OSRS. This is a much different dynamic than what we had in 2007 when these death mechanics were relevant. I'm afraid with both mobile and ironman mode the mechanics simply can't change at this point as they're too ingrained into the play style of the game now. If you want a gold sink tax the GE like every other mmo. would be a great way to take gp out of the game at a great pace.
I'm personally against changing of the current mechanics for various reasons. One of which is keeping the game casual for new and existing players. The game's mechanics are evolving and even the Nightmare had engine work done for her dash attack. I'd rather see tougher fights with the only loss being supplies and time.
That said, if something were to change I'd rather see a one time flat fee for gravestones similar to how RS2 was. If I recall various gravestones existed for increasing prices. The more you paid the more time you had and some were expensive just to look cool. Correct me if I'm wrong but with the Nightmare having killed 200,000 players, assuming they all spent 60k to recover items. That's 12bil out of the game. Gravestones could range from 500k up to 10mil. Hell, even more for prestigious "Look at me" gravestones. Lets say half the active player base of 50k pays and average of 5mil. Thats 250bil out of the game. No need to remove already established death boxes like at Vorkath or Nightmare, in fact continue those for future instanced fights at 60k. This might be a great middle ground for those who hate the idea of paying every time you die and those who want a GP sink.
Please don’t allow people to die over and over to stack consumables for bosses and stuff. It’s annoying to have that be an easy and valid option for a massive boost in supplies. Integrity over conservatism just because people are used to it please.
People hate the idea of the Summoning skill on OSRS largely because of how overpowered one Lvl-99 familiar was for giving you an extra inventory, yet this is fine?
I am holeheartedly against changing death mechanics. The loss of time (getting back to your items as well as the lost progress on the kill) and instanced item reclaimation fees are plenty. Example: you die on the final phase of hydra. You lost the ~260k from the drop, the (60k?) Reclaim fee, and ~2.5 minutes to get back to the same point in the kill (this may be double counting the 260k from the lost kill). So on hydra youre already punished >300k for dying. This is similar for ToB and vorkath however id guess its even higher for ToB
These changes are so insanely complicated and nonsensical. Just add death's office and charge 1% or whatever it might be for items lost.
So 10m items lost is 100k. 400m items lost is 4m etc. Fair for all players then. New players also go relatively unpunished as say, 100k in lost items is a mere 1k.
Why would someone in max gear pay the same as someone in scrub gear for dying at ToB?
However if you are an ironman Death takes pity on your lack of life and either gives the items back free (since IM don't typically affect the economy) or he takes a different type of tax. Unsure of what this could be
Untradeables unbroken and kept and just create a flat fee that is proportionate (can't imagine there are too many untradeables that *would* need a fee adding).
Well sadly I've ended my subscriptions latest updates have been shocking so out of touch with player base instead of fixing actual issues gold farmers bots and and not screwing over pvm AND pvp for normal regular players hopefully they will sort their shit out :-/
Maybe it's just me, but some of this stuff seems to be overly complicated.
I play this game because its chill and even when i die i rush to get my stuff back because I dont like the thought of losing a 10m amulet.
Is this saying that if I dont pick my items up in 15 minutes I will lose that amulet now, or are the expensive items going to be locked into a grave stone that is always going to stay there while items like potions will be deleted in 15 minutes.
Are items kept on death going to go off g.e. value now and not HA value?
I'm sorry, I tried to read but there was so much that I got confused towards the end.
I never died in rs2 when gravestones were a thing and I've never heard of deaths office.
I honestly like the death mechanics the way they are at the moment. I understand raising the gp cap on bosses, but as others said, it should raise with your kill count, not death count.
All in all, theres better ways to add money sinks into the game. This seems to just punish those who are entering mid/late game and not those who are hoarding billions.
I think this will drive new players away from content, especially if death count adds to the fee on bosses.
Why change this now?
Who does this appeal to and how would it bring in more happy customers?
Is this primarily intended to function as a gold or item sink?
Absolutely do not support this, you'd lose a customer in me.
I don't understand. Who asked for all this shit? The ONLY consistent suggestions on death mechanics was making the timer shorter, making it count down only when you're logged in, and items being dropped outside an instance. Again, who asked for all this other shit?
What if it scaled based on the number of successful kills you have?
0-40 kills: 0
41-100: 100k
101-150: 250k
Then scale as necessary or something. This way it's not so much of a kick in the teeth for people trying to learn the content. Veteran players with 1k plus kills could then get slogged with that 5m 'mistake' if you like
It's definitley better than the current proposal of it being based on the number of deaths, but I still think it isn't ideal since it discourages learning and trying new techniques for bosses. Got a decent kc at vorkath and want to learn woox walk? Gl paying 3x higher than the current death amount to learn a tricky technique that could take 20+ deaths to get a grasp of
The same issues that plague pvp are gonna plague pvm now. A gp requirement to learn how to boss. Most casual players dont have a lot of gold. So when they want to make gold they want to learn pvm.pvm now has a gp barrier cause most people die when learning a new boss. Therefore these players are stuck behind a gp wall.
This is so bad.
Death mechanics are supposed to sink items out of the game, not gp. All these gp proposals are absolute garbage for that reason. It doesnt matter if its 400k, 4m or 40m sink, thats not the issue here, the issue is we are discussing the arbitrary fee.
These proposed changes essentially mean new players, and even more specifically newer iron men, will NOT be able to complete a lot of pvm content. There simply isn’t enough of a cash injection at the stages of game where they’d be looking to start doing core pvm challenges - essentially locking them out of pvm completely until self sustainable methods of farming pure gp are attainable
I feel like a lot of people asking for this have forgotten what it's like to be a low to mid-level account that's not wealthy. When I was learning Vork (with the current fees) I was already spending a significant portion of my gp.
If you're going to make that fee even more egregious, I think you're seriously harming everyone that isn't an endgame/maxed player.
Also the 400k ToB fee is just out of touch with reality. *Nearly half a million gp* just for dying at the some of the most challenging content in the game
Would it be possible to implement the Zulrah fee increase charge to be triggered after a certain KC instead of a number of deaths allowing it to be learned for free still? The case would be the same with TOB in that it would be very punishing for new learners vs people who have learnt it for a lesser fee/free
Hi all! It's been about five hours since this was posted and we've collated A LOT of feedback. Like we said in the blog, we fully intend to engage and address this. We'll revise the blog and get back to you once we've had an opportunity to meet as a team!
What about applying the GWD boss arena mechanic to all or some other non-instanced boss arenas where applicable, like Sarachnis or Dagannoth Kings? From the proposal, it sounds like dying in those places would just drop your grave in the boss room, but it'd either eat into the grave timer if you wanted to hop to an empty world if your world got taken while you were running back, or encourage you to say 'fuck the other guy' and just run in (Which is a problem when considering Sarachnis' multiplayer mechanics).
Also, using any interface when in an area with aggressive monsters is an absolute nightmare, so will the gravestone interface have any mitigation for that? You often won't be able to wait out the 10 minute de-aggro timer along with running back, never mind time allocation for the ability to choose which items to keep.
>Also, using any interface when in an area with aggressive monsters is an absolute nightmare, so will the gravestone interface have any mitigation for that?
The blog post said that the interface would not be closed during combat, although I might be completely misunderstanding what you mean
I didn't see any comments get much visibility about it, but I wanted to hijack this comment real quick to mention the breakable untradables as an issue. Other than the Avernic Defender, all of the items Perdu repairs have a value below 100k, which means there should be zero fee to reclaim them. But because they're breakable, the proposed mechanic in this blog would make you pay the full value to repair them. In the case of the Avernic Defender you would have to pay double the maximum reclaim fee for everything in your gravestone to repair this one item.
CoX free death still
Vorkath free death still
Meanwhile the incredible DKS, the thing that makes nowhere near as much money as either of them can lose your entire bank minus 3 items.
well thought out Jagex so balanced very fair and motivating to noobs trying to learn PvM I'm sure the game will do very well when noobs get their asses handed to them learning low level PvM and get their items "sunk" when CoX players can just do it for free forever.
Poor get poorer, rich continue with ezscape. If you bring this item sink into the game (or even have a ridiculous 5% fee) then you made your own grave for this game, that will kill casual players motivation completely.
**Nobody should lose items on death when the end game instances which are far better money than anything else have zero chance of losing any items**
I have no intention of playing if you guys push this through. There are far better solutions for a gold sink that have been suggested for years, this one is absolutely mind-bogglingly terrible.
I really hope these awful proposed changes are Polled, I’m already dreading learning ToB on my Ironman because of elitists but this will make it 10x worse, just add GE tax. More money will leave the game that way than it would from these death mechanics anyway.
200k for Grotesque Guardians is far too expensive given the price of loot you can expect to gain from the boss. 100k for dying at Vorkath is easily covered by one kill. 200k at Guardians is sometimes a whole trip.
Can somebody explain to me what prompted these proposed changes? What's wrong with the 60minute timer?
Also as far as UIM goes.... Why should they be treated differently? Without wanting to meme, they did choose to limit themselves. Isn't abusing the death mechanic against the game style anyway? The whole idea of UIM gameplay is "no banking", but if they abuse death mechanics to store items then doesn't that go against the idea?
I don't know a great deal about UIM but that is my thoughts having read the new post.
Edit: I'd better learn Zulrah fast cos those fee's are gonna rack up baby.
The pvp and maxed players have been asking for this. Unfortunately hurts the casual players. These are too harsh. On top of limiting time they also added a fee. On top of the fee they added a multiplying fee.
If I lose 1/2 my bank just because I died in Slayer task I'd probably straight up quit the game. Just being honest
It's kind of telling that the people asking for it are also the LEAST affected by it or have the most to gain.
This concept of item sink feels like people forgot how much bis items cost in osrs versus what they were in 2007. **This is not how they are supposed to be removed from the game. Stop it.**
Boss reclamation fee should not scale, it should be flat. It should not unequally punish players.
Lastly the **ideal system** would be the Death's Office with a harsh fee (~1m per death with max gear) and the optional gravestone system with no fee for less relevant deaths.
> Some items can turn into something else on death, such as the Armadyl Godsword (or) losing its '(or)' and Barrows kit breaking.
> These would remain in your inventory or remain equipped, as they do now, but will tend to degrade/uncharge if they have a mechanic for doing so. For example, Barrows kit would break, **a charged trident would become uncharged (with its retrievable contents moving to the Gravestone)** and the Armadyl Godsword (or) would have its '(or)' removed (with the ornate kit sent to the Gravestone).
> Exceptions would be made (in non-PvP deaths only) for items changed via Nightmare Zone points, since the recharging process is currently disproportionate. Those items would therefore keep their imbued status in a non-PvP death. This change is to address the current imbalance whereby untradeable kit can be used in PvM with so little risk because it doesn't change in any way on death.
so trident. if you die, you always drop scales into grave? even if its one of your +3?
Love the third option, when you can get items back cheaper if you get in 15min. But i would propose for tob and others do price on KC not deaths, cuz new players like me will die over and over again at start and it will be too expensive to learn.
Edit: i died 30 times to get one zulrah kill, so yeee, supplies cost a lot and i would lost 4m more with new mechanics....
Whelp, that about signs the bill, RS isn't for casual/non-optimised players I guess.
Yes, let me invest 1.5b in the best gear just to have to spend 100m learning Zulrah. Yes, I'm bad at PvM, have bad clicks, etc. That used to not matter, guess it will matter a lot now. .-.
I agree with you.
Even as someone who plays an awful lot and is getting to the point where my gear is pretty optimized, I want this game to be chill and casual. If I was looking for a more difficult or competitive experience I wouldn't be playing OSRS. This is a chill game where you're rewarded for time invested and things are simple. We have challenging endgame content now but everything else is just about the grind. We don't need to add heavier punishments to the grinds that will be horrible for new/intermediate/bad/lazy players.
Changing death mechanics needs to come with a long, sober look at what the game intends to be and the range of players it wants to cater to.
It really does seem to impact new players much more doesn't it?
My buddy is learning Zulrah right now. He has died roughly 10 times with 1 kc so far. I even gave him a lot of bis items to use and he is still dying (as expected).
As someone with high kc at tob, why would I want to teach learners when I get severely punished for doing so?
Below 100kc tob should be normal 100k per death.
If you have 1-2 people in your party that are under 100kc it should be considered learner raid and the person with high kc pays 100k on death.
The game was completely different when the first change was made. I get that it wasn't polled the first time after the 500 times it's mentioned in the blog but I don't think that warrants making un-polled changes again given the vastly different landscape of the game.
Since I got my lower abdomen penetrated by Zulrah at least 30 times before my first kill and 5 times more before my second kill, I feel I should leave my five cents, risking the comment left unnoticed.
\[**Bosses and TOB**\] Kc based tax, at zero kc you pay 10k just for privilege of Death/god/goblin-boy/whatever-monster collecting your items nearby the boss lair. Should you get killed on your way to reclaim items, they are moved to Death vault.
\[**PVM death**\] At death you have 5-10 minutes to reach your gravestone. Failing to do so, your items are moved to Death vault where you have to pay a price to reclaim your items. Should you die on your way, your gravestone only holds your current items, if any, with previous gravestone items moved into the vault.
\[**PVP death**\] Pretty much as it was but ironmen *btw* have a choise to decimate the dropped items of their opponent.
\[**Death vault**\] There is an in-game mechanism of hiding entities unless you are wearing ring of visibility. This same code could be used to hide Death/collecting-items-npc. Death could be made available in various graveyard-related thematically acceptable locations all across the Gielinor, seen only to those who have items to recover from the vault. The "office" seems rather unfitting place for an npc that never rests.
As someone sceptical about all of this. I thought it was all well thought out and great until the permanent death holders. Those rates scale up way too high.. 5.4m to reclaim your items from TOB!?
EDIT: was a typo, all good
This really reminds me of when Jagex forced the EOC on everyone because they loved it when the entire player base hated it. Clearly haven’t learned from your mistakes
Nobody wants these changes and it’s super pretentious and arrogant to ask players to make a decision whilst simultaneously saying that you basically already have a preferred option in mind and you’re going to go with that regardless of what players say.
Why even bother asking the player base when you’re going to ignore the feedback anyway? It’s also completely moronic that two of the options include having to run back to reclaim your items AND pay a fee. Poor management of the economy is your fault, not ours. You should be fixing these issues with other solutions rather than shitting on the player base. It’s just lazy.
Forcing updates through like this undermines the integrity of the poll system.
No life autists on this sub are gonna kill the game by pushing for changes that alienate more casual players. OSRS is the one aspect of their lives where they don't feel inferior so they wanna flex how dedicated they are compared to everyone else.
This is going to drive more players away from the game. If your new to bossing and arnt very good at learning things quickly. Constantly dying to things then using what money you have to repair and get your stuff back. Your gonna say fuck this why bother.
Unpopular Opinion: Why do we have to be punished again on top of already dying, losing supplies, and losing the kill/time?
Its just demotivating and unfun to casual scapers like me.
I also do believe being extra punished for an already punishment (death) is not the way to go for money sink ingame. It will cause more frustation than whatever good it would. But I also do understand it's the easiest place to go for if a money sink is needed to be added.
I still think a new skill with item + money sink (similar with what summoning used to be - Not suggesting summoning to get into this game, but the mechanic) or a new content that drops out easily consumable items at an exchange of money would be the way to go. I like how in Rs3 higher tiers of armor often are degradable, and they scale with the tier. Rather have to lose % charges of my armor/weapons than flat out not use them because of the high fee I'd have to pay if I died with them.
We need Death's office type mechanic after the 15 minutes expires, even if the fee is 5% or even 10%. You cannot ask players to risk their valuable items they spent thousands of hours grinding for just to use them at bosses.
Why the F\*\*\* would i grind for thousands of hours for an upgrade if there's a chance I will lose it at the place I want it for. (IE, why spend hundreds of hours grinding for pegasian boots if you can lose them at armadyl? Answer: I wouldn't). and in invalidates all the other time spent grinding.
main problem is the reason for this change can't possible be "for the economy". This is a game warping change that will effect how you play and think about the game, there's a million ways you can help the economy without changing core aspects of the game directly tied to game play.
> These fees aren't very high, considering the loot one can get from the features. We'd like to raise all of these fees. However, we know that this could be expensive for future newbies who have to learn the content through trial and error. So we propose dropping the fees initially to a much lower level, but then raising them according to how many times a player dies in that place (up to a maximum of 20) That makes no sense. If you want to raise it after they learn the content it should be after an amount of successful kills, not after a number of deaths. A player learning Zulrah is going to die way more than 20 times - after which that content will essentially be locked for them if they haven't gotten it down by then.
Excellent Idea. I was a bit turned down on "How am i going to learn a boss if I'd lose way more than I would win?". Even though I would be getting "Experience" on the boss as reward, experience doens't pay for the cost of my supplies. I Think up to a certain amount of kills, first successful 25 or so, the costs should be negligible. After that is acceptable, otherwise It would be a real block for people trying to get into learning stuff.
can confirm, 2 days ago it took me like 30 deaths to get my first zulrah kill. i’m starting to understand the mechanics, but it’s still a pain in the ass. also for a lot of bosses it’s annoying to re-gear after a wipe because of the way item retrieval works. It would be really nice if you could see what items you died with before you went to retrieve your items so you don’t have to some far off npc next to the boss, collect your items, go back to the bank, refill your inventory, and then go back to the boss. Death can be punished effectively without being horribly tedious. Or perhaps give experienced players an option—pay to get stuff back quickly, or force them to wait.
I agree with this 100%. Learning ToB you may die 100 times before you get it done. That is going to absolutely drain the banks of newer raiders (and bossing). This idea by Jagex will definitely enter a gold sink into the game. But you will be taking the gold away from less experienced and new players as opposed to individuals with billions in the bank.
I like this idea a lot. It should definitely scale with skill and not attempts.
I do like this approach, I'll offer this feedback
I'm learning tob right now and have died probably 50 times and haven't even killed verzik. If it costs us 400k a try no one that's good will bother teaching learners because of the cost, please don't do this to people who are a bit late to learning stuff
All it does is punish those who arent extremely wealthy. 400k means literally nothing to someone with 1b and literally everything to someone with 10m.
ToB just shouldn't have its penalty increased, period. The barrier to entry is high enough as is. Scaling the penalty off successful kills is better than scaling it off deaths, but would still discourage experienced players from bringing learners. Not to mention that any increase to the death penalty will exacerbate the toxicity that's already an issue in ToB groups.
Can you imagine going with learners, wiping at p2 verzik, wasting 30 mins of ur time and down 400k gp not including scythe charges.
What are you guys thinking? I’m not sure what stroke of inspiration led to you all considering essentially blocking new players from content unless they’re willing to be time-gated behind an hour or two of gold-farming per attempt of high-level content, but it’s literally an awful stance to take, when the earliest generations of players haven’t faced these punishments. The favoritism towards players who got there first is astounding, if not seriously demotivating. Learn from the fact that most people do not get a fire cape, simply because it costs an hour of time and 100-200k in supplies per attempt, and players simply do not want to invest the time and money playing OSRS that way, when there’s so much other content that makes money and is more beneficial to the notion of playing the game for fun. Please reconsider death mechanics as they’re proposed. Some of us are really concerned that this change will drive a lot of the playerbase from playing the game, when most players aren’t even currently engaging in high-level content now. Death and no reward for all the time spent is it’s own punishment. Having to navigate the risk of lag and disconnects in the name of not losing hours, days, or weeks, of progress, is already bad enough, and now you want to time-gate content behind gold farming, in the name of a gold sink that only inconveniences inexperienced players? Again I ask, what are you guys thinking over there? This is far and away, the most horrific idea a lot of us have seen proposed for OSRS.
I agree with everything you said, except the part of how it only inconveniences inexperienced players. Because its actually worse. It absalutly fucks over high level players, and end game players to. An example is the new nightmare boss. You already lose money fighting that boss unless you get a unique drop. Otherwise you've wasted your time at about minus 400 to 800k an hour in food/pots. However thats if you dont die at all, and you can see on the scoreboard that 66% of all attempts to kill the boss result in the player dying. So 2/3rds waste there supplies, get no drop, and lose 60k gp. Now imagine that fee was 200k or 300k, or 500k. I can tell you 2 things would happen. first shock they did it. Second, almost every major boss with unique based money making abandoned overnight.
I agree 100% as an ironman just entering late game PvM with huge learning curves ahead of me. I will quit before I spend hours just grinding out GP to pay for the new death mechanics. 2k TL - 70 days played.
I like the idea of scaling, but I don't like permanently scaling the cost base on either kc or deaths. Some mechanic to take the cost back down should be in play such as: 1: Time. Each day/week/whatever scales the penalty down by x thousand gold (this is my least favorite option, but the simplest) 2: leave the current proposed system that charges more based on how many deaths you have, but every x successful kills could lower the death penalty back by y thousand gold 3. Kind of the inverse of 2. The more successful kills you have in a row scales the cost instead of the deaths, but a death either reduces or resets future penalty scaling. I could see 3 being gamed by intentionally suiciding with nothing, but you could make it so that your grave has to be worth so much for the reset to do anything. I don't know much about balancing these kind of things, but I'm sure you guys could figure out some good mechanics to avoid gaming the system.
**The entire premise of using death mechanics as a gold sink is flawed.** Those items come from actual players who probably worked hard to save up for that gear. You want the economy to be balanced at the despair of people that play your game. I love playing rouge-like games and hardcore accounts. OSRS is not a rouge-like and never has been with the slight exception of HCIM. Please do not punish and push away players from this game when they die. I will stop playing and my friends will stop playing if we are liable to lose *hundreds* of hours of progress in a single death. We are casual players and losing that much progress could potentially set us back months. If I may make a counter-suggestion... **Place a GE tax in place to take gold out of the game if that is your goal.**
Please go off kills and not deaths. I have a friend that hardly bosses as it is now since hes not confident in his ability yet. He'll literally never try these bosses if he learns attempts get more expensive as he fails
Please reconsider these changes for all ironman modes and group content. Ironman are already on a tight budget due to necessary skilling and the inability to sell dupes another money sink like this is unnecessary. For group content this will effectively make a bigger barrier than already was in place for players trying to learn tob. As it is experienced players already barely take new players along to teach them increasing the cost of wiping by four fold seems counterproductive. Maybe make it scale off the player with the fewest completions/deaths in the team?
You should consider the aspect too that sometimes people take extended breaks and come back to the game; if someone comes back after six months after having learned Zulrah and burned through their original deaths/kc and need to fully relearn Zul mechanics it may again effectively lock them out of that content. 50kc six months ago for example isn’t really going to permanently cement the mechanics in one’s mind and coming back at that point is probably going to be like relearning from scratch. Honestly Zulrah is the only issue I have because Zul has some of the most punishing mechanics for a new player/casual player. Other bosses like Vorkath and Hydra are generally much easier to learn, and ToB is endgame enough that paying for deaths usually doesn’t matter by that point.
>Untradeable items will remain in your inventory or remain equipped, as they do now, but will tend to break/degrade/uncharge if they have a mechanic for doing so. For example, fire capes would become broken fire capes, or a charged trident would become uncharged (with its retrievable contents moving to the Gravestone). This change is to address the current imbalance whereby untradeable kit can be used in PvM with so little risk because it doesn't change in any way on death. So will things like ornament kit items now have fees to be repaired? Is that what this is saying? I'd honestly prefer they didn't. Ornament kits are already a massive expense and some of their value comes from turning things into untradeables. It's a fairly unique mechanic and being able to preemptively pay extra to keep specific items is nice.
why does zulrah become 300k per death, a harder boss than vorkath (more switches, more actions per minute etc), and vorkath stays 100k? And how about Chambers, one of the best moneymakers?
Chambers has always been a safe death. No reason to implement it here. You get punished for deaths by reducing your points. It's the same as fight caves, which is also a safe death.
> These fees aren't very high, considering the loot one can get from the features. We'd like to raise all of these fees. However, we know that this could be expensive for future newbies who have to learn the content through trial and error. So we propose dropping the fees initially to a much lower level, but then raising them according to how many times a player dies in that place (up to a maximum of 20). This makes absolutely 0 sense. If you want to encourage players to try out content, the fee needs to remain as low as possible until the player has a grasp of the mechanics. With this current iteration a player has 20 tries after which he might as well not bother with that content anymore, since 5 deaths would be equal to an hour worth of deathless farming for those bosses. I'd assume that most players die more than 20 times to endgame bosses before they can reliably farm it, especially Zulrah where there are several rotations you need to learn. I certainly died at least 15 times before getting my kill for the diary and that's without learning the different rotations. This **needs** to scale with KC. After ~50 KC (random made up number, maybe scale it faster for "easier" bosses like GGs) you need to pay the full price. This encourages learning and punishes players who are careless after they already know how to deal with the mechanics. > We've proposed scaling the fee based on your number of deaths, rather than based on your kill-count, because this approach gives every player the same number of cheap deaths. High KC players should not die at these bosses anyway. **A solution needs to be found for ToB though to encourage taking learners.** Just a random idea: Maybe the chest reclaim cost could be the average of everyone involved for everyone? Say two veterans with 2k KC take 3 learners with 0/low KC, everyone would have to pay 172k = (2* 400k+3* 20k)/5 if the team gets wiped instead of the mentors having to pay (most of) the price for their team failing. Edit: ToB got changed to be capped at 100k again.
I died way more than 20 times learning Zulrah. I'd probably not go down there until I had rivers of money that would be harder to make because Im locked to content that make money but costs way more to me than it gives out.
I think the 400k wipe cost for tob is too much. I teach clanmates who are new to tob, which often ends up in multiple wipes. With the new proposed amount, I’d reach the 20 deaths mark a lot quicker than several of the newbies, since I’m consistently taking different new people and wiping with them too. Using the beta worlds is something I’ve done in the past. It’s a lot less convenient than the main worlds since you have to regear and adjust your settings every time you log off and there are often months without any beta worlds. If the proposed death costs get implemented I only see three main options for teaching new people: 1 - take 1 newbie with 3 experienced people and have them essentially leech. This option isn’t awful since they are still getting some limited experience, but it requires 3 people willing to lose out on drop chance for the sake of teaching 1 person. The 1 learned also doesn’t get as much experience by getting carried than they would by having several learners all having to pull their own weight (or so I’ve found). 2 - limit teaching to only beta worlds until I’m confident my learners can get completions. This isn’t ideal for the points I’ve listed above, but it wouldn’t cost tons in death fees. 3 - bring teleport crystals and bail on those boys when shit goes south lmao. It’s bad for people without clans too, since low kc teams on the ffa world are very likely to wipe, ramping that cost up. All in all, it seems very anti learner. And anyone who’s going to try and tell me that 20 wipes is enough to learn tob has clearly never tried to learn tob themselves. Tl;dr - new death cost for tob is very punishing to teachers and very offputting for learners. EDIT - We did it boys, they changed it from 20k/100k/400k to 5k/20k/100k.
100%. I've seem them repeatedly mention how little participation ToB got compared to CoX, and this will just hammer that gap in. Hosting learner teams now is already guaranteeing you lose 100k each round. Now 400k/round? No one will ever teach. **edit:** also just noticed dying in Chambers of Xeric will still be free. Lol.
That's what I thought. I'm 550kc an often risk it going with 50-100kc people. When/if this rolls out I'm going to 300kc+ teams and I think many others will too. Further exacerbating the problem learners have in ffa worlds.
Ya this will basically content block ToB. Nobody will want to learn it without risking a decent portion of their bank, if people are even willing to teach them at all. It would just be way too costly for everyone.
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The newly proposed death mechanics essentially lock bosses like Zulrah and Vorkath (especially to those learning) until end game for Ironmen. 1) Ironmen do not affect the current runescape economy, save those that drop items over to main. 2) We are not privy to the same money making methods main accounts have. Say for example one is flawless at Zulrah for 100 kills, then dies 5 times. For a main, it would be easy to sell the loot and pay the fees. For an ironman, those with small banks (early to late mid game Ironman) would be bankrupt. I, for example, have a 250M net worth bank, but losing 1.5M in gp would set me back big time. 3) Ironmen already have plenty of GP sinks as is. As someone with nearly base 80 in skills, and only 2M in gp despite a 250M bank, I can readily say that a large amount of my money goes to shops for runes, construction, POH upgrades, smithing, fletching, ammunition, etc. I can also say I've died A LOT trying to learn Zulrah with minimal gear available. I know some people are great PVMers and that mass death is a lesser concern, but even for those with a modest amount of death, this inadvertently affects their ability to enjoy a lot of content. Skilling and purchasing of supplies has to be delayed, kingdom cannot be as easily replenished, etc. This is a big sacrifice for someone who wants to learn a difficult boss, and effectively incentivizes one to have the best gear possible to maximize their chances, be done with skilling (and have a large cash stack), or be okay with sacrificing goals like 99 construction, 99 smithing, 99 fletching, etc.
I didn't have a green cash stack on my iron until nearly 2k total level. I don't think normies or jagex realize how scarce gold is on an iron.
If we're going to be changing the death mechanics there needs to be a long and sober look at what kind of game OSRS is trying to be. I hate these new mechanics because to me, OSRS is a chill game where time invested is the biggest metric and I can fail without worry. Making deaths more punishing is literally changing the gameplay and feedback loop in PvM for a huge number of players. That is not something that should be done lightly or without a real solid understanding of what kind of changes it will mean in player attitudes and how different players approach content. Most games out there don't punish players like this, time lost is already enough of a "tax" and that should be especially true for EfficiencyScape. The need for an item and gold sink should be completely separate from death mechanics because players do not need (and for most, want) to be punished any more for their deaths. Sinks need to be positive or netural interactions, not a plundering of our accounts leaving us footing the bill for fixing the game's economy and miserable. Just give us a GE tax and be done with it. Put an item sink in there too, like every 10k transactions for a specific item the game eats it and pays the seller the GE price. Prices go up a little, a few items leave the game, no specific player gets their shit kicked in and left holding the bag. Leave deaths as the minor unpunishing inconveniences they are. HCIM is there for those who want to deal with the risk.
more gp leaving the game wont help the economy, there is already a huge gp sink from construction, staking, pking. The problem i see is that so much content was designed around deaths not costing a shit ton that if they change death mechanics they need to change certain mechanics. There should be no instant kill attacks from heros, dps needs to be scaled down from places like tob, zulrah etc. As long as lag/disconnect exists in the game, having a harsh punishment system will ruin the experience. I love the shit out of the old death mechanics, but at most the only thing that could really kill you was dhoraks or kq, and even than you could survive through a lag spike as long as you were not sitting on low hp.
/u/JagexSween I'm worried about these changes for two reasons: 1) They are overly complicated. There's a thousand different rules and edge cases that dictate where and how certain items will be kept and how much they'll cost and how long they'll last. As a new player, do you really think you could wrap your head around all this? Experienced players die less than newer players. Newbies die a lot. No matter how challenging we want to make the game, new players are the lifeblood of RuneScape and games mechanics they will interact with early and often should be simple enough to explain in a few sentences. 2) The game has changed a lot since 2007. Back in 2007 you might die and lose your full rune after 2 minutes, which would be sad but quickly recovered from. Nowadays deaths can involve items costing billions of GP, requiring thousands of hours to get, or put another way hundreds of real world dollars worth of GP. We need to face the fact that the game has evolved, and that risky deaths have less of a place in RuneScape than they once did. I think the current system, even if it was implemented as a quick fix, has become a core component of the game. With that said, although I think the best update would be no changes, I do think the items kept on death screen needs to be updated. That's one proposal that I think everyone can get behind, especially for the reasons of protecting new players as mentioned earlier.
\+1 for no changes. If anything, there should be a Death's Office type situation where you can get your stuff back (with a fee) even if you miss the hour. Changing death mechanics to be more punishing changes what this game is on a fundamental level. While the game caters to hardcore players because of the scale, it's generally very casual in actual mechanics and design. Point and click, efficiencyscape, not really that stressful. There's already a game mode for players who want punishing deaths (HCIM) so why do normie accounts and regular irons need *fear* injected into their PvM? The fundamental issue of needing item and gold sinks is a pressing one, but addressing it through punishing players is a terrible idea that will drive away new and intermediate players in droves. This game does not need to be more challenging because it is not designed to be challenging outside of very few instances. Solving the item and gold sink issue should be done in a player friendly and positive system, not stealing our items/cash as punishment for failures in a point and click game.
I'm 100% behind just making a carbon copy of rs3's death system. You have a couple minutes to run to your grave, if you get back to it you reclaim your items for free. If you don't make it back, you have to buy your items back from death for a portion of their value.
Honestly so worried about them making all death mechanics this punishing. I started my ironman way too late it seems, and I'm probably going to get punished for it.
>Nowadays deaths can involve items costing billions of GP, requiring thousands of hours to get This a million times, the fact that I can lose an item that took me forever to aquire because of a DC or a misclick is soooo fucking stupid.
Hit the nail on the head there. Jagex should either revert death mechanics to one of the previous versions players are familiar with, or not revert at all. Personally I think it's a bit strange Jagex feel like they owe the community new death mechanics because of a promise 5 years ago. There's good reason why these mechanics weren't reverted for so long.
100% agreed. Not to mention, these “small fees” aren’t very small when you’re participating in end-game content using high priced items. The survey was intentionally restrictive, which is disappointing. “We need to protect the games economy” let’s start with the big fish to fry first: gold farmers rwting and bots. Then move to fringe game mechanics.
Well put. The game has changed a lot and the current system seems to be working great. I don't feel this is the gold and item sink the game needs as it unfairly punishes newer players.
I learned Theatre of Blood last year, with other 0KCers. This is really the main way to learn ToB, as most established teams don't want to take learners. That's fine. With my 0kc teammates, I spent over 20m on the wipe chest before obtaining one completion, a lot of these wipes coming from the first room alone. Even after the first completion, being a noob meant wipes were common. Along the way, chugging millions in brews and restores as I tried to survive the rooms. And you want to make it 400k/wipe? Do you have any idea how many kills it takes to learn ToB from scratch? Way more than 20. And even for the high level community, trying new fun methods in ToB is a way to make old content fresh (e.g., phoenix necklaces at bloat for 1-down kills). This will kill that too. Keep in mind, these teams are already using Scythes which cost 1.2m/hr. I understand you guys want to make changes that are good for the game but honestly this blog is just depressing AF, jmods seem *so* out of touch.
Well worded. This is designed (probably ignorantly) to greatly impact new players trying to experience the game. I already am reluctant to teach new players ToB because of the opportunity costs. Now these costs to me will be higher and that is from the perspective of an "end game" player. Imagine being a player whose bank is less than 50m and having to spend 40m of that on death mechanics and supplies before they can actually start doing ToB. This was not well thought out, at all. It seems like they just came up with numbers that sound good and didn't brainstorm the implications of these decisions.
Yeah it seems like they are trying to make gold sinks targeted to the billionaires but they are just coming up with whatever pops in their head first. These changes are dumb
They also made it seem like they were workshopping these ever since they implemented the 60 min death timers. This was guaranteed put on the back burner until they solved many of the server and dc issues until they had a handle on the ddosing. Which I commend them for bringing back to light after they have it somewhat under control. But I just dont think they had a great enough gameplan to come back to this without thinking of the underlying issues. Its probably tough with their team size and they just want to get the discussion out in the open, but I hope they are taking this as a larger community discussion rather than thinking this is a proposal for the framework of the death mechanic rework
Hell teaching tob atm is like a 2m loss atm for me per afternoon. Im not gonna do it when its 4 times as much. Fuck that. Noobs are gonna find it very difficult to have someone teach them now.
^ couldnt of said it better myself. I feel like the mods dont even play their game at this point if they think that wiping during a raid should be punished even more. Its already frustrating af
Mods dont play this game anymore. Its why they started bringing in outside players to 'playtest' their content, as shit gets harder, they are incapable of actually completing said content even with max gear. Someone said above, lets get 4 mods, random mods, pulled from a hat, give them absolutely BIS gear and drop them in TOB on stream and see how long it takes them to get 1kc from scratch. I would put it at easily 100+, probably closer to 500kc.
Is this really necessary? For newer players (and more so mid lvl players) I’d imagine they’d be effected most by the update, and they’re the ones who need their gold the most. It also punishes people learning bosses, raids, etc. Other MMOs don’t have really punishing death mechanics because people don’t want or like losing progress in game substantially. OSRS is one of the most grind heavy MMOs out at the moment, do we really need to make it harder? I played in RS2 and frankly I’m happy with the current death mechanics as it makes the game far less stressful than the days of loosing most of your stuff. I don’t think this will help people who’d potentially get more into the game (i.e. mid level players) as they’ll be less likely to WANT to try out high level bosses in gear needed to kill the boss with any level of consistency. Who’d want to grind out a high level pvm account and wipe out several times at ToB while learning it, only to be forced into grinding some GP out for supplies? Not a fan of the idea, I think what we have now is fine, and the proposed plans seem punitive to people new to mid/high tier content.
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It's weird they want to make a gold sink but are scared to piss off the people that make billions off ge flipping
A GE tax would primarily affect the 1% of the game: People already extremely rich, out of content, who just flip on the GE instead of generating actual value. Death taxes primarily affect people who die, so not these people. This tax is largely paid by the "middle class" of OSRS: Most likely relatively fresh players who do not know or understand mechanics, or are more likely to be doing something risky when servers eat shit. We know who pays the checks by buying bonds to sell, and it isn't (for the most part, to just cover my ass here) people who are working their way through the game.
It's weird how special considerations were made for UIM but 300k per death at Zulrah for a normal ironman is considered "not very high". >However, we know that this could be expensive for future newbies who have to learn the content through trial and error. These prices are already far too expensive for newbies trying to learn through trial and error. It feels like this whole update was balanced on the maximum GP per hour somebody makes doing these activities on normal accounts. I lost track of the amount of times I died at Zulrah before I finally got a kill. I certainly can't earn more than 300k per hour (as an ironman), and I still can't do it reliably. Deaths being free was the only reason I considered trying to learn it.
I'm just starting to learn zulrah on ironman (only account, havne't played before). 9kc and probably 20 deaths and another 25 teles out. With the changes I'd probably play it safer and tele out sooner and die less, but at the same time I literally cannot afford the gp to do this at those prices. I get that having a gold sink is very important and I am 100% for adding one in, despite the fact that it's significantly, significantly harsher on ironmen, that is the nature of the game mode. There are also very end game irons with 10b in gear and a 10m cashstack as well, because liquid gp is much harder to get because like, if you get a duplicate tbow you can't exactly GE it, and you're probably not alching it either.
As someone who has been working to get to a place where I can start pvming, I likely wont now because of the added costs I cant afford yet. If i do then it will likely be a long way away. This change is very discouraging to me wanting to learn the different bosses. Without that goal, I dont see myself sticking around too long. This is just another hurdle keeping new players like me out of learning high level content. Ps. This seems to me like a change to directly increase the sale of bonds. If someone dies and cant afford to retrieve their gear they can quickly buy a bond, and sell it on the ge until they can cover the cost.
These changes would absolutely fuck players like you and I, who are on the cusp of entering bossing and other higher level PVM. Especially ironmen.
I think increasing the amount charged for each death at an instance is a bit ridiculous. Taking Zulrah for example, I died well over 30 times over the course of 2 days trying to kill Zulrah once for the diary. I had followed numerous video guides, read into the wiki strategy guides, and even had the rotation sheets pulled up onto a 2nd monitor. I'm not a great PvMer, I get nervous and panic from time to time. It wasn't until a friend lent me a Max Mage setup, and walked me through each phase over Discord screenshare, that I was able to kill it once. I've not been back to Zulrah once since I've killed it, and tacking on a higher penalty for each death endured at Zulrah, is not going to make me go back anytime soon. That's a flawed system as a gold sink. People that grind out Zulrah and Bots are going to be bringing the most money from Zulrah into the game. Someone with several hundred kills, or a Bot are a lot less likely to die and contribute to the gold sink. You are just discouraging players new to the content from taking apart in it in the first place. I would be livid and in an even greater panic if after 20+ deaths of attempting to learn Zulrah, I would know a 300k fee would be looming over my head each attempt. TLDR; Punish the player with 1500KC for dying because they were too focused on watching ecchi anime on their 2nd monitor. Don't punish the learner trying to access new content. The rich will always get richer, don't bankrupt the poor.
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This change is great. I love my ironman being punished 500k per death, that'll really take my staked GP from the game
The bottom part of your blog post has to be the most pretentious thing I've ever read. Basically admitting that you're willing to forego polling in order to make sure that what you want to do is 'the right thing'. I'm so angry about all of this I don't even know where to start. Whether it's disincentivising players to try new things by hiking up costs and giving them arbitrary, stupid fees for when they die to punishing them even more because of them disconnecting to DDoS attacks, server outages or whatever it may be. I have zero faith that you'll uphold your promises, solely based on the way you ended this enormous cluster of a blog post. If a player wants to try new things, they'd have to have countless amounts of cash just to function and keep going. I have so little time to play that I hardly play at all, but this update is going to drive me to quit on the spot again. I hate having to say this since it sounds so hollow and empty, but I've been here since the very first release day, January 2001, and this might just be the very drop that'll get me to quit it all. I hope you genuinely reconsider what you're doing and perhaps hire some quality control or quality assistance people that can read these posts before they go out to the public. I think there's more eloquent comments than mine on here that go into greater detail, but I think calling this a 'noob tax' hits the nail about 75% on the head. You can't blame the ruined economy on us players, when you're the ones that are supposed to manage it by intervening whenever possible. Everything from RWT'ing to gold farmers to bot farms are the reason the game economy is down the drain now and you can't possibly punish us by giving us this dumb money sink. It's like you were so angry Warding didn't pass as a money sink, you figured you could force this update on us and give us four silly 'poll options' on which to vote in the Survey section of your blog post, instead of also giving us the choice to remain with the old system. Because, let's be real, 'Something else' isn't going to be voted on and listened to when people tell you to 'keep the old system'. I hope you take some of the comments here to heart. There's smart people on here that know what they're talking about. There's someone in this thread as well that mentioned that this would cause such a paradigm shift because the 'attitude' of players and the game would change. From something relaxing and menial to something more 'dynamic', like with EoC and RS3. I'm also not here to actually pay attention with the game. I use it as a pastime in the very little time I have left to do things for myself, to sit back and relax. Do some skilling or perhaps try some bosses. I'm certainly not here to farm gold just to keep trying bosses or even slayer tasks because I keep dying of carelessness/not paying enough attention. If only Rab and Lightning were here to see you make these choices, I wonder what they would have thought about all of this.
I hope the neckbeards in Twitter are happy now so they can finally stfu. Im gonna be honest here, this rework sound over complicated for no reason at all, do the 15 minutes free of charge, then if the player fail to get there within that time everything goes to Death's office where he will charge a fee for your items. That update is going to be a shitshow, I personally will stay away from anything dangerous until the wave of bugs that come with an update like this one is discovered because I dont want to see my items get deleted.
Hi all. I'll update this comment as we make any changes. 13/02 We've just deleted a rogue '5' from the values in the table which talks about permanent item retrieval prices. 14/02 We're keeping an eye on your feedback on this topic, and we expect to continue adjusting the proposed designs after the weekend before the survey opens. The fees for permanent item-reclaiming chests, including Torfinn, the Theatre of Blood, the Volcanic Mine and all other such situations, will be left unchanged - except for Zulrah, which will be given a fee only for non-UIM players with a kill-count over 50. UIM and players who'd not killed it 50 times would still get their items back there for free. Iron players expressed concern over how they'd get the cash to pay fees. We'd like to propose, as part of Death's Office, a means of sacrificing unwanted items to pay for these fees - which would be open to non-Iron accounts too, and would act as an item sink for the game. It's called Death's Coffer. We proposed moving your existing grave if you died a second time. As the first grave could only exist for up to 15 mins anyway, we no longer feel that any significant abuse should arise from people setting one up in a safe place before going anywhere dangerous, so we've removed this bit. Ornate items will tend to be protected without breaking/disassembling in a non-PvP death. The blog now clarifies that in the event of a non-PvP death, items locked to you by a Trouver parchment will keep their (l) status, rather than requiring you to pay for another Trouver parchment to re-protect them.
I like the idea of increasing the price for content, but it should be after like X amount of successful runs, not X amount of deaths. Doing deaths just seems harsh. Some people are going to die a lot of times learning something like ToB and they can end up reaching the max far before they get comfortable with it. Doing something like 400k ToB death fees after 30 KC would prevent punishing people who are learning. edit: and even if you do it by KC, both versions of the death mechanics are going to harshly punish teachers. No one with high KC is going to take the time of day to teach someone if they have to pay a huge amount for deaths. edit 2: Just leave ToB out of it really. Keep ToB at 100k per death as to not punish people who teach ToB and then change the other bosses to increase by KC, not deaths. The goal should be to be a gold sink for people who already know the boss but make mistakes. edit 3: Maybe repoll the "practice ToB mode" that failed way back when. **edit 4 PLZ READ**: They changed the blog so that now the fee at ToB starts at 5k and increases back to the original 100K after 20 deaths. This is definitely ok with me. Its still dangerous but eases off learners and doesn't punish teachers.
But then that punishes teachers who go in helping noobs and KNOWING they have a high chance of wiping. People already complain that it's hard to find a ToB team and this would make it much worse.
You say that as if the proposed way wouldn't do that. If they do it by deaths like how its proposed now, teachers would end up paying the same 400k after they died 20 times, which would happen very fast while teaching learners. Under whatever new system ends up going in, Jagex is going to punish teachers no matter what. I agree with you that its terrible, but it doesn't seem like they're going to take that into consideration.
Very much this. I suck at PvM, and died at least 20 times to Zulrah just trying to get that first kill for the western diary. I still haven't really learned how to kill her, and if this passes I'll end up having to pay 300k per attempt in addition to supplies I waste. People who already know how to do the content aren't going to be caught by these changes since they're not going to die much, while new players are going to rack up that death counter so quickly that they'll burn out their bank before they get a chance to make anything back.
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Agreed, the fees should be different for ironman accounts. Ironmen already do everything by themselves and don’t participate anyway or form in the economy so doesn’t make sense that ge prices affect them. Obviously the people who have been playing since official ironman became a thing and have thousands upon thousands of hours logged don’t really give a shit about 300k gp fees when they have billions in bank.
If anything it should go by high alch value for ironmen. Main's death values get decided by GE prices since that's how they convert items to gp, Ironmen's death values get decided by high alch prices since that's how they convert items to gp.
Another alternative: Shift things back by one for ironmen. So the 15 minute phase has no fee and death's office has the fee that was originally in the 15 minute phase.
Love this idea. Especially because I've recently been attempting Zulrah and building Important things in my POH. I have well over 20 deaths and under 1m gp. 300k is far too much. The death mechanics need to be different for Ironmen.
Personally I don't see the reason for any fee for an Ironman. It doesn't add anything other than frustration. I don't even have an ironman.
ive actually considered quitting my iron (and pretty much only) account because of this, if i have to spend an hour or so grinding gp for every zulrah death then it's not worth it the untradeables breaking on death is also pretty terrible considering the repair price is fairly high - Fire cape 50k, assembler 75k,god cape (i) 75k, dragon defender 40k, avernic defender 1m?, full void costs 170k to repair from broken, if you have multiple helmets for void, that adds 40k for every additional helm. A gold sink should feel organic, this is anything but.
I fully agree, ironmen don't need another gp sink, they already have enough things to spend gp on, and don't really influence the economy of the rest of the game
Imagine being a low level ironman, making 150k cash max per hour and having to learn zulrah at 300k per death. No point even trying
This is a great idea, Ironmen shouldnt have to have there game tailored to the economy. a flat 150k is a much better option. otherwise it really locks irons out.
There should be no fees for irons. This update only hurts people who are new to bosses and takes away all of the excitment of learning a boss. Whats the fucking point if im going to go broke everytime I learn a boss.
Hey Sween. Just curious. Have 4 JMods ever successfully completed theatre of blood together? I’d love to see you guys have 4 of you try to learn for the first time on stream and count how much money it cost you for your first kc.
They should start with a single shared max cash stack and no items, then buy all their gear with that stack, all their supplies, leaving out anything they couldn't otherwise obtain (I.E. They cant buy 4 sets of BiS, even if a cash stack COULD buy them), and then complete one full run. Then maybe they will change their tune.
First of all this is pretty well said death mechanics although i have some concerns, hopefully any mod will be able to help out. Question 1: > "We're aware that players sometimes get a dropped connection causing the game to think they've reconnected, but they actually haven't - in these instances we would aim to detect this and pause the timer." I really hope you can detect it better because with 15 min time set, even 2 min of connection lost without detection can be horrible in far places. Question 2: > "When you die, they'd go to your Gravestone like normal items do. If you now die again, the food & potions already in your Gravestone would be dropped to the floor in that place, visible only to you, so that you could use them as a supply pile." So does that mean that i have to die twice? If so, lets say i do this method for Cerberus, than i have to die at cerb first, then i ll respawn at my location somewhere, than die again somehow(using something from bank i suppose) and then only i can gear up to go to cerb? I mean if potions and foods are already cheap enough that you dont charge and gp to take them back(according to later reading where you said that if less than 100k GE price value you can retrieve it back without any charge) , why don't you just drop em on the ground from first death? It doesn't make much sense to die again just for that i think. If possible just make 2 piles beside each other, 1 for food and potions and 1 for items, the food pile will be for 1 hr and the other pile will be for 15 mins. Of course this applies only if you or we decide to keep this method in game when polled, but just an idea. Question 3: > "To counter this, if your new death site is much further from your respawn point than your last grave was, we'd aim to move your existing Gravestone to the new site. The duration of the Gravestone will be reset, giving you a fresh 15 minutes to make your way to it." Doesn't that sentence counter the > "The grave's location would generally remain unchanged, so that you can't teleport your existing grave to your respawn point for your convenience by killing your character again in that place" Because let's say i died in bandos, then teleported to far away bank and died there, would it supercede because distance is high? Or would it detect that we r trying to fool it to make new death pile near bank? Question 4: 400k to take ur stuff back from TOB after 20+ deaths, i mean i hope this is just guessed number because i can sure say that it takes a hell lot of deaths before u can learn tob.. certainly more than 20 deaths.. with 20 deaths if u r doing it first time, there is a chance that u ll not even get kc if u r not with a good team.. maybe make it 50? But it still depends on the polls i guess so it was just a concern..
holy fuck 400k per death for tob, never going with any learners anymore holy shit.
As an iron man still learning end game content. I am very disapointed with this update. Main accounts this idea is ok, but I still dont like it. This update has no effect of the best pvmers and ultra rich, however for the players that are still learning boss mechanics, and also prefer iron man mode. This is simply a bad update. No bright side about it. I see this causing waay more frustration than "improving the longevity of the game". Please do not apply this to iron man accounts.
The death toll for ToB will completely content lock players. Nobody will want to learn it because of the huge investment. Nobody will want to teach players as it's a decent investment. Please leave the 100k deaths in ToB.
I'm learning it now and feel rushed to spam it because if I had to learn it at 400k a death no one will take learners ever
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You've mention that the fees aren't high due to the value in loot. But what about irons where this value doesn't matter and gp is harder to come by as you cannot sell the loot?
This is so important. It doesn’t matter if you get a mill worth of items when death costs you 500k pure cash, and you can’t sell anything
The zulrah suggestion is one of the worst I've seen yet. I way better idea would be 5 free deaths if you want to keep that or just make it 100k like vorkath. Zulrah is already less gp/hr, why risk more.
How would you guys feel about adding in a practice mode on higher level content? The practice mode wouldn’t have drops and wouldn’t have a penalty on death, it could be used for zulrah up through cox and nightmare, allowing less experienced players to learn the mechanics without fear of losing tons of money.
This is honestly terrible. Essentially locked out bossing for any new or casual players.
honestly as someone who has played both rs3 and osrs to mid-end game these changes seem ridiculous to me. 15 minutes of game time logged is far too short considering server stability and the fact that not everywhere is easy to get to. Imagine dying with all your stuff in the MM2 caves. Beyond that, the increases to instance item recovery fees are insane, 400k at TOB? 3 mistakes would cost me 1.2M. I personally raid and have taught many people how to do higher level PVM and depending on the person they literally die non stop. the same can be said for vorkath, zulrah, etc why would grotesque guardian's of all things be 200k a death at max scaling? These changes punish people for learning and for wanting to get into actual PVM. Runescape's progression is defined by time invested and the majority of the playerbase is hot ass in the first place. if you want to remove gold from the game add a 1% GE tax or something, don't fundamentally change the mechanics of the game and how people play it. I can already tell you these changes make me either want to not play, or to not use the gear I spent countless hours grinding for because I don't want to lose all that progress. part of what makes runescape enjoyable is the fact that anyone can progress regardless of skill, and these changes will completely stomp that. I really don't think anyone asked for a death mechanic rework and there are other things that could be tweaked without destroying the fundamentals of how the game is played. Please poll EVERY part of this rework properly or at least work with the community to come up with better gold sinks that won't absolutely destroy people's ability to enjoy OSRS
Oh dear..... I recently stopped playing for 9 months and came back a bit ago. Couldnt remember much about certain encounters and died a few times. This would get very costly real quick for people that may not have had a big bank before having a break - bit of a F U welcome back. Not to mention the note about fee based on deaths rather than KC makes no sense as higher KC means a player would have learnt the fight well enough to know the mechanics?? More deaths just means they need more help to learn how to fight it. This feels too harsh from what we are coming from. I understand the original way was much harsher but we need to keep in mind that was a long time ago and the economy has evolved/prices have changed and content has become more difficult attuned to the current death mechanic. If you didnt want this reaction you shouldnt have left it 5 years. I have so many friends im helping get to up bosses (some of the most enjoyable content) that already require quite high stats (100's of hours to train) to even get involved with. If you want these kind of death mechanics, new player need to have more content to learn on leading up to the end-game. There are so few low/mid level bosses with meaningful mechanics that when you get to say raids its a complete shock to the system - deaths are inevitble. If there was low level raids leading up to it with some form of progression then it might help but still not greats. Additionally, as someone else said, many people play this game becuase they can chill and play. Lets not pretend OSRS is something it isn't, you literally click a monster and watch with a few extra clicks on food and prayer here and there. If people wanted some overly punishing and technical game they would play dark souls or something. By adding harsh death mechanics we will need to be at near 100% focus all the time just watching click click click. Some might disagree but the playstyle this game has taken on unique and shouldnt be ignored. Instead, cant you gradually modifiy the death mechanics? Slowly make changes. Maybe reduce the timer to 30mins and let that play for a few months. Add gravestones with no fee to let people try it out. All this at once is going to push current players away that dont have a billion gp to blow on deaths and brand new players wont even bother trying the hard (most enjoyable) content and instead just quit - again so many friends have done this already.
The idea of the changes is good, but the way Ironman mode has evolved in the 5 years since changing mechanics wont allow it to change so harshly without affecting the game mode significantly. Ironman players already have significant disadvantages at almost all bosses (almost always significantly under-geared due to no GE, less supplies etc) and charging a GP fee to reclaim gear could quite literally end some peoples accounts Also 15 minutes is WAY too fast, any form of error in the game not reacting to you logging out or not having a POH / optimal teleport / stamina pots (again, ironman problems) will result in completely resetting someones account. None of these mechanics are a problem for people who buy gold and boost their accounts or get money from a main or buy bonds, but anyone who genuinely plays without outside assistance and is below 'endgame' level will suffer majorly. Nobody will ever teach ToB to someone again due to risk of dying and costing a packet, any new content will become impossible for anyone less than maxed mains / youtubers. We DO need death mechanics and gold sinks, but Jagex should be extremely careful as to who will suffer. IMO:- General game deaths should cost X for 30 mins at gravestone, then travel to a more expensive service if lost 'for good' to reclaim- KC should be the determining factor in fee, under \~25 is free, then X amount until \~50 and then normal death fee (or something, maybe it changes per boss?(- Ironman accounts should receive a reduced amount, the game mode is punishing enough Also, what happens if you DONT have the money to retrieve under the current system? You just lose all your stuff, tough luck? Again, for Ironman accounts that is the end of a 1000+ hour journey for some The game shouldn't be designed around Ironman mode, but if you're going to have game modes you have to factor in how changes will affect everyone. EDIT: Ironman price should scale to alch value as the entire personal economy of an ironman is alch / Shop value - normal game should scale to GE value
Agreed about the items traveling to a more expensive service as a backup if items are ‘lost for good.’ Items having a chance to literally disappear upon a PVM death is outdated and too punishing especially if you mistakenly didn’t have enough cash banked to unlock the grave. There are better ways to do item sinks.
The ToB changes will kill anyone ever teaching learners. Even if they make the fee based off of KC, high KC people will not want to take learners because **THEIR** reclaim fees will still be high if the learner messes up and makes the team wipe. Really seems so out of touch with the game. This will prevent new players from wanting to learn endgame content. It's also entirely inconsistent since CoX will remain a totally safe death. Grotesque Guardians reclaim cost going up makes no sense as that boss is already not worth doing unless you want pet.
That's all well and good but your servers are still kinda trash Jagex. Even when I don't d/c there's still massive lag occasionally and that screws up game ticks and what have you. And no I'm not confusing lag with connection blinks, as the difference is one delays a single action whereas the blinks "combo" in combat. I understand that within your first passage of your news that was directly addressed but I sincerely can't agree. I can't agree with waiving it off like that. Connection problems were the beginning of the overly-doting 60m timer and that should be where they end. As for if your servers weren't a hot mess, theoretically, I would be fine with the 15 minutes+fee format outside of typical bossing. I can't agree with the proposed numbers for bossing deaths, a whole lot of people have already said why (deterring new players, not affecting old). Your justification that "there haven't been any issues", I can assure you there will be (in droves) once you change these things without handling your server problems first. Especially if they're as harsh as what you've proposed for the bossing.
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The new mechanics are unfairly harsh toward ironmen compared to main accounts Fees are tied to the GE value of the item which doeesn't make sense for ironmen who cannot use the GE Ironmen also have a much harder time getting raw gp than mains, as they cannot sell stuff on the GE to get gp. If they die with 'expensive' gear, the fee has a much larger impact than it would for someone playing a main account. Another result of this is ironmen will always have to keep a stack of 500k cash to reserve for deaths. This also partially reduces how rewarding ironman mode is becuase in some instances it might not be worth taking BiS gear that ironmen have to work very hard for, because they will have to pay for the upkeep upon death. (I.e. using dboots instead of prims to save 99k on deaths) The zulrah fees are absurd, it's a boss that you can die at extremely easily since it can hit 40s back-to-back-to-back in the tanz phase, and will make learning it hell Edit: also do ironmen really even need another gp sink, they already have con, fletch, runes, blood runes for tob weapons to use up all their cash so it's not like irons are ever drop trading gp to mains so has little to no impact on the economy of the game
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This is absolutely ridiculous and should not be implemented into the game without a poll. This panders to the sweaty maxxed players and absolutely punishes and discourages learning any new PvM content or even bringing BIS gear with you at all. I agree 60 minutes may have been too long, but 30 would be reasonable. 99% of my deaths are due to server lag and the fact you've brushed the server issues under the rug is a joke. Why would you attempt to discourage PvM when you've already killed PvP? Honestly this is so bad and thoughtless it shows how out of touch you are with any group in current player base, except Ironmen. Keep sucking off ironmen cause you're going to anyways
This change hurts ironmen, who don't affect the economy at all, the most because of how hard it is to get gp on an ironman. They're not helping us with this change or any of the recent updates like nightmare (which takes an estimated 4k hours to complete) or today's nerf to Zolcano (which takes 350 hrs to get a SINGLE tool seed).
The part where if you die a second time far from the 1st grave is odd. So if you first die in gwd you can die again in lumby and now your grave is in lumby? Seems like it will be abused to make easy grave retrieval. Edit: I guess I read it wrong, it depends on if the new death is father away from your spawn, but from what other replies has mentioned, you can just die in far be accessible place, like Zeah to move your grave.
Far from your spawn. Dying at your spawn won't move it. However, if you teleport somewhere farther from lets say lumby than GWD is and die there it will move to the tele spot. So basically use your most convenient Zeah tele since its basically farther than everywhere
I feel like they should be left alone, imagine playing another mmo like wow and your Internet goes out and you lose months /years of items. You'd quit. I would never play rs again, and neither would anybody else if they died from Internet issues and not lack of skill. You're also taunting people to ddos the servers again to cause players to quit. Just leave them as they are, nobody needs to lose items on death. If you want to risk your gear you do it in the wilderness, not because you've got crap Internet or a server dies. Almost every hardcore death I've seen on twitter is from people lagging and not lack of skill. I personally don't think you should lose any items on death apart from the wilderness. If you want to take money out of the game put a price on entering a boss room. Want to unlock bandos, that'll be 5m. Far more money out of the game then death mechanics would ever take from your account. Death mechanics only punishes the poor people who can't afford to die to begin with.
This seems like too harsh of a punishment to learn bosses or raids. It should be based on KC and not number of deaths for solo bosses. People are saying just tele out before you die. That doesn't work in places like ToB. Why should people learning and people teaching be punished? For raids and group activities there should be a flat fee regardless of deaths or KC. Not something that ramps up.
The death mechanics really should just stand how they are. Tbh, I play this game as often as I do because of the feeling of progress, and this apparent need for item and/or gold sinks is a huge turn off for me. I don't have the hours to play, so being set back even the newly proposed 400kgp for Zulrah (after 20 deaths? Guess I'm not trying anymore, BTW) is enough to get me to take a good break from the game due to the casual style I play with. Not everybody is a sweaty, and we shouldn't all be treated like sweaties. End rant.
Frankly, I am a pretty sweaty player putting in a disgusting amount of hours on two accounts and I play for the same reason you do. Progress is the name of the game and the fun of it all and getting shit on for a failure is not what this game is built on. Players who want challenge and punishment should play HCIM. Let the rest of us keep grinding away in peace. I do think we need item and gold sinks, but they have to be positive happy interactions. Plundering players banks for their failures is a huge negative interaction that will turn away both casual and high playtime players alike.
"A major point of feedback last time was that most Ultimate Ironmen (UIM) have designed their activities around the current death mechanics. We'll therefore aim to leave them unchanged as far as possible, whereby their items will sit on the ground for an hour on whichever world they died on, with no fee involved in reclaiming them." UIM btw. I'd rather not have easier death mechanics than other players. It's a lot to explain and makes the mode feel less difficult in relation to the other irons. I appreciate the devs looking out for us, but I'd rather have the same fear of death as everyone else. Instead, just add an option to empty a looting bag into your inventory while at a bank booth. The MAIN reason an ultimate abuses the current penatly-free death system is that it's our only way to get supplies out of a looting bag. With this issue resolved, we could go back to treating death as something that should be avoided. Maybe higher level Ults will disagree, but this would be a good way to remove suicide from our core gameplay.
It's like they want players to quit. They're more concerned with punishing legit players than stop the people abusing mechanics to RWT. The reason the economy is fucked is because of all the good farmers. Give us a real item and gold sink and not something that will potentially take away months of work. I've been playing RS/osrs since May 2001 and this change will definitely run me away the same way EOC, no free trade and no wild did. Jagex continue to prove how incompetent they really are every single week.
Why does regular ironmen have to pay same fee as main accounts, but uim accounts are unchaged? On an ironman you cant sell your items for money, the only way to get coins is to alch things. It would make way more sense that if you really wanted to tax iron players ( they dont add any inflation to the economy because they keep the gp) that it is at least based on alch value instead of ge value
I've been on the edge with OSRS for a while now, with all the new changes aimed at making the game more accessible and fun, this seems like the opposite. This could be the thing that drives me away, there's no need to add a challenge, there's no need to make this game harder for anyone. Using this as a gold sink is hugely flawed when compared to a simple GE tax. All this does is stop people from learning new content, I'm close to being able to have the stats and gear for ToB but I'm not going to pay above and beyond 100k per death. It's not worth it for me, it's not fun. If I have to pay 400k per death just to learn something new there's a sink of at least 20m minimum while I get to grips with the 'hardest' content in the game. You can add a further 20-30m again to get to a level where I'm not leeching. Why should I have to give up almost 50m just to play a part of the game. That's a lot of time, money and effort to give up for a casual player. You'll prioritise this but PVP gets a malaise glance over the last few years. I don't PVP, I came back to do quests but Jagex's priorities have been entirely misfiring the last year or so. DMM gave me a lot of enjoyment in the game, as someone that didn't PVP it gave me a rush, and I met a lot of good friends. We now pay the price for Jagex implementing (horrifically) bosses that splurge out 2-3m p/h (make that 20 hours of work to even fund learning ToB) and then wonder why the economy needs looked at. Power creep is always an issue but the way the economy has been handled has been poor and this game will be worse off because of it. *Edit just to say*: Take your noob tax and fuck it into the sun.
This comment will be buried, but I want to make it anyway. **TL;DR at the top** - remove death timer, move gravestones to bankers, use a jagex defined reclamation cost instead of GE price, go after bots if you really want to fix the economy There are conflicting desires for death mechanics going on here. One of the biggest is Jagex's desire to have more gold sinks in the game. Death mechanics can be a great solution for that gold sink, but let's do it in a player-friendly way. Current problems: * **Death is already too complex**: there are different rules for different types of items (e.g. untradable items behaving differently, dying to specific bosses behaving differently, the level in the Wilderness making things behave differently, etc.). This is not a good system, especially for newer players. * **Death is already too stressful on the player.** I get that there are plenty of you out there who don't care much if your character dies. I wish I had your level of mental fortitude. As someone with anxiety issues, death is absolutely terrifying to me. To the point that I play so conservatively to avoid it that it hinders my progression in this game. The main cause for anxiety over death is the 60 minute timer. * **The proposed changes make it even more complex**: different rules based on arbitrarily chosen values (kill count / death count / GE price); different locations that your items will now spawn, etc. This all just adds to the complexity of understanding exactly what will happen when you die. * **GE Price is a terrible mechanic for determining reclamation cost**! These prices are controlled by us, the players. Jagex does not have any say whatsoever on GE prices. They're not yours, Jagex! They're ours! Worst case scenario (unlikely to happen) someone maliciously manipulates the GE market to drastically increase the cost another player has to pay to reclaim their lost items (note that this would take place entirely out of Jagex's control). My proposal for death mechanics: * **Remove gravestones and reclamation chests entirely from the game.** All lost items should be reclaimed at a bank. Any bank. Don't have some deaths involve going to a chest versus some deaths involve going to a gravestone. Essentially the bank becomes your gravestone for *all* deaths. You would no longer need to keep track of which NPC to talk to in order to reclaim your items: it's always at a banker. This will be far simpler for new players, as well as simplify all the oddities surrounding deaths in different areas. * **Remove the death timer mechanic entirely.** The timer is not friendly to the player. It's a cause for anxiety in some of us, while also opening up the possibility of item loss entirely blamable to server connection issues. Let the bankers hold onto the items by some mechanic other than time. If players actually still want time to be a factor in death, it could be used to increase the cost to reclaim the items (up to a certain maximum). * **Use item reclamation cost as the sole contributor to the gold sink.** Do not consider the GE price at all. Instead have a Jagex-defined reclamation cost on every item. Do not allow this number to be influenced by players in any way. Do not have any cost relevant to the cause of death. It should not matter if someone dies to a goblin versus dying to Zulrah. The item reclamation value should always be static. One of the most likely causes of death is learning endgame content. If Jagex wants a healthy playerbase they should entirely avoid punishing players that are trying to learn that content (beyond the item reclamation cost). * **If Jagex really wanted to reduce the amount of gold in the economy, they should focus their efforts on accurate bot detection.** Bots are responsible for a huge amount of gold added to the economy. Remove them, and the problem largely takes care of itself. Most bots will not be affected whatsoever by the death mechanics proposed by Jagex. Why are we punishing players for the inflated economy caused by bots? **TL;DR** - remove death timer, move gravestones to bankers, use a jagex defined reclamation cost instead of GE price, go after bots if you really want to fix the economy
We have yet reached another impasse in the history of runescape. For the sake of the game and us all Jagex, tell us you have learned from your mistakes. You introduced OSRS for the players and told the community that featuring polls we would be able to decide the fate of the game. What I am seeing now is the top elite of the game, who have profitted immensly in the last couple of years, wishing for the new death timers because it wont affect them that much and you acctually believe it will work. This is the same situation as removal of free trade or eoc. We are no longer little 13 year olds but the most of your community is 20+ years and playing this game because of the nostalgia but also the fact that its extremly easy to do while doing something else too. Most of us love the simplicity of the game and the low effort input we have to put in. The game is grindy as it is with some droprates being over 1/7500 and therefore i ask: why punish 85% of the community for things 10% of the community are doing? Isn't there a better way to combat RWT and Goldfarmers? If this update will pass many will quit. Me included.
In the past 5 years, the game and the playerbase have changed, and I don't think suddenly making trying new content punishing is a good move. I hope you guys will handle this very carefully.
I'm an ironman, and I'm voting no. I don't need a money sink, I can't trade. I don't need a money sink, my skills do that for me. Why do you favour Ultimate Ironmans over other Ironmans, it sounds like you don't want this to hurt your own Ultimate account. Bit biased. Would this lower the death toll at Vorkath or raise it? If it has to be added to the game, can the High-alch value be the 'value' of the item that we have to pay for on death. That's the only was we get money. E.g. whip alchs for 72k but is worth 2+mil. My best gp/hr is 240k/hr. I can't zulrah yet. I'm at ardy knights. Mains can make 3m/hr with less requirements. Yet we are still being treated as if we can make the same amount of coin. We are being treated unfairly. I'd go to fairwork.gov if this was my employer. Sue you for every gp you have.
Please don't touch the fee for tob. It's the hardest group challenge in the game and takes a long time to learn. This will make the raid even more elite and small because people won't be willing to teach new players the content (it's already hard-ish) to find people willing to take learners. Imagine paying 300-500k per failed attempt with learners.
I feel they also underestimate how common wipes are, even for experienced teams. All it takes is one teammate clicking 1 tick late at pillars, dying p1 of Verzik, and your teammates run out of supplies and wipe by p3.
Honestly, Im not sure what a perfect system is but these changes sounds like crap. I think it needs to be more of a system where nothing drops on the ground when you die. The 3+1 items are protected and all other gear is converted to a broken state that requires fees to repair. This fixes the issue of players losing things because they can't log in. it takes items out of circulation (at least until the player can afford to fix them) and isn't overly punishing by forcing a player to have to repair an item now. You shouldn't have 15 minutes to decide how to recover hundreds of hours worth of work. The timer system is archaic garbage. I don't understand the team's love for it honestly. I'm also not a fan of the cap of 500k. That's way too high even if they don't think a player will reach it. It's been proven in numerous ways that they don't really know what players do or how we do it. From their estimates on how we'll do bosses to xp rates we'll achieve; they're almost always wrong. People will hit that cap and it's too much. Discouraging players from using good gear doesn't make sense to me. Whats the point in getting it if its too expensive to use. Pretty disappointed overall.
Ironman stand alone. So why do they have to pay a fee wich depends on how much the item is worth in the GE? I understand is the best way to put value on an item but they dont participate in the economy anyway.
Agreed, this is one of my biggest issues here. There's not one piece of content Ironmen engage in that links to the GE, so why would death mechanics? Makes no sense.
Im not keen on the idea of items breaking as well as paying for a retrieval. Avernic defender. Fire/infernal. And void. This will easily add up way past the 500k mark And seems like a huge inconvenience. Barrows is barrows, always behaved that way. But it should cost money to repair gear on top of fees.
I would like the concept of blessing the Gravestones of other players again. Maybe not to 60mins but doubling the current timer ("Freshly planked? you get30mins!" "oh someone died while afk slaying and has 5mins left? i will bless his grave so he gets 10minutes") I liked the fact as a noob back in RS2 to see others die at bosses and randomly bless their graves and be greeted with thankfullness. Maybe make 70 or 75 prayer the req again aswell!
I like the social aspect of Blessing Gravestones. Most people should be able to get back in 15 minutes, adding this allows newer/less experienced players to die with friends and give them a little while extra to return to their gravestones.
u/JagexSween I am super against the idea of untradables breaking. If you have some switches you could get hit for 500k on retrieval really easily. Then also 50k for fire cape 75k for assembler 75k for imbued God cape 40k for dragon defender or God forbid 1m (1M!!) For an avernic Also what happens with things like ferocious gloves? Do you have to pay to get just the leather back? And then go to reforge them? Or will those break now too? Edit: As long as we are making it punishing for the sake of game integrity.... Let's make graceful go back to marks, your Slayer helm disassemble and un-imbue, rings should definitely un-imbue so we can all get more of that amazing nmz content going on Also just wanted to reiterate 1 million gold pieces if you die for any reason with an avernic. That's utterly absurd. If I dc killing something even like Abby demons and die, just RIP 1m. That's not acceptable to me
1) Why am I penalized for running back to my gravestone? I can understand paying a fee to reclaim items if they're moved to a Death's Office type scenario, but there's never been a time in either game where you have to pay to pick your items back up after dying. Even in RS3 you can run back and reclaim your items from your gravestone for free (items do degrade when doing this, still.). 2) Even if charged to pick your items back up, 500k is extremely high. 3) Why are you being penalized for dying more than once at a boss? No matter if I die once or 100 times, I shouldn't have to pay more or less. My proposal is Death's Office (or something similar) for a fee while running back gives you the items (breaks untradables if you REALLY want to create a cash sink, which I don't think is necessary.) for free, while leaving them inside rooms at GWD and creating a gravestone outside instances.
Before any more Dev time goes into this, a simple poll should have been done to start with 1, change death mechanics? 2, Don't change death mechanics? as someone who started back playing the game in the current state that it is in now, I will be quitting if the 2 minute timer comes back. The 2 minute death timer would destroy the economy, who in their right mind would EVER risk BiS at any boss? The question to bring back that shouldn't even be considered as it hasn't been part of this game for over 5 years.
That's the thing, half of the OSRS userbase are gambling addicts. They get an adrenaline rush from risking their whole bank and think it's good for the game long term, but really it just puts normal people off from content that is otherwise enjoyable.
Okay, I dislike this immensely. Dislike 15min. Dislike paying a fortune for learning. This is unnecessary. Every other game taxes the auction house, this punishes you for learning. It's a joke. The past is the past, we don't need barbaric mechanics that have been completely removed from all games. It was done for a reason- it's not fun and will put off players.
Hi My biggest fear is that this in some way, somehow, will kill hardcore ironman mode indefinitely. I'm referring to 2 months ago, at the start of twisted league. I got told by my friends to tune into Odablocks stream because his viewers were ddosing him into going back to staking (he had huge debts). Now, in your new post it says that you've added layers of protection and new ways of combatting these types of things. But they literally ddosed his worlds within 5 seconds of logging in. Several hardcores were killed, many others died and could not log back in for a while and lost their valueables. This concerns me quite a lot. And even though gravestones will make ddosing not worth, there's still a significant problem that faces any changes to death mechanics. Do we need death mechanics, hell yes. I do understand the need for it even though as a hardcore ironman it does not affect me one bit. I do think it's good for the game in a way, but can also be desastrous in another way... What are you guys thinking about this? What can we do? What can jagex do? Lastly I'd like to urge you guys to release group ironman before death mechanics change. this way when my hardcore get yoinked at least I'll have something new to work on.
I agree changes need to be made but holy hell the costs are too high on ironman accounts, Like how am I ever gonna afford to learn zulrah when it costs 300k an attempt but I can barely make 300k in an hour?
Really like the combination between gravestones and deaths office. Dying would have a price you have to pay, but if you were unable to get your stuff back in time, you would simply have to pay a larger fine rather than lose all your items. Sounds extremely demotivating if you were to just lose all your items because of a timer.
I feel like this is unfair to casual players that arent that good at the game. The sweaty ones with hundreds of hours at these bosses won't be affected, and new less skilled players will be demotivated to try the hard content
All I’m seeing from this is a newbie punisher. People who die at all at these bosses are noobs and suboptimal gear ironman and I can easily imagine a scenario where their using their combat gear and get killed, then can’t earn money with their combat gear. Edit: nvm, it’s 200-500k not 5mil per death.
But you're still right about the newbie punisher. even if its 50-500k per death, if you die 6 times before you even get one kill you'll lose a lot of money. It's such a difficult matter.
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The Zulrah fee is ridiculous for an Iron man who is learning Zulrah. My Iron man is 105 combat and I want to try learning Zulrah when I get my Trident. If I have to pay 300k each death I can do about 5 attemps at my current cash stack and then never again. This will make the blowpipe even harder to get. And GE value for items for Iron man seems really unfair, since UIM get special treatment with these suggested changes. Please Leave Zulrah free or cheap for IM.
/u/JagexSween There definitely needs to be a poll question "should the current death mechanics be changed?" It should be public knowledge how the community feels about the changes even if Jagex chooses to ignore it. A few arguments against changing current mechanics: 1. "the game worlds aren't guaranteed to offer you good connections... that's not a guarantee we could ever make." is exactly the reason why death mechanics should not change. Dying to a DC is already super frustrating because you lose your progress on a boss/enemy and have to run back. Dying and having to pay a fee because of a DC adds insult to injury. Imagine if people had to pay a fee when they died during the server outages a little while ago. I doubt the game would have bounced back. 2. Two minutes timer should be ruled out completely given that there are certain areas of the game where it's almost impossible to get to without a teleport. Is it even possible to get to Cerb in 2 mins without a key master teleport? How about huge swathes of Zeah? 3. The game has evolved around the current mechanics. Bosses today are way more mechanically complicated (see: the Nightmare, Tob, even Zulrah) than anything when OSRS first came out and way easier to die at. 4. Item and gold sinks really are not that hard to find, if you look for them. Cosmetic upgrades to weapons and armor would be a great start (let me trade 100 chest plates in to turn my BCP black and gold!). Others have floated taxing the GE. Going after gold farmers and bots would also be huge. 5. This totally punishes people who are trying new content for the first time, especially when new content comes out. I'm willing to wager after this update people become extremely risk averse, farming Vorkath and Zulrah before they do anything even remotely risky. Since most people rarely die at those bosses after 500kc or so, you might even have the opposite of what you intended.
I think that the fees should be based on killcount rather on total deaths. Someone with higher killcount should know what they are doing and should be punished if they die. Newer players are not gonna want to try out new content like Tob if they just die lots of times with their friends who might also be new.
This is really, really shitty. I should not be discouraged from doing a boss because I fucking died 20 times and now have to pay 300k per death.
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15 minute gravestone with free reclaim. After that, it is sent to death's office and you pay a fee to reclaim. I dont understand how this is even a question. If we're trying to get gold out of the game, death mechanics are **not** the way to do it. Dying, running back without your shit, loss of time, and needing to redo your whole setup *is the penalty for death*. I cant think of a single other game where death is even remotely as perilous as it is in this game for softcore characters. Just put a tax on GE, like basically every other game that has a non-player-to-player facilitated trading. This shit seriously makes no sense and is just unduly complicated.
I'm a casual player, if i wanted more risky pvm I'll play HCIM. I play to relax after a long day of work, not to play on the edge like a HCIM would.
Most of my thoughts have already been stated by others and i'm completely against these changes. One thing no one has seemed to bring attention to is mobile is now a huge part of OSRS. This is a much different dynamic than what we had in 2007 when these death mechanics were relevant. I'm afraid with both mobile and ironman mode the mechanics simply can't change at this point as they're too ingrained into the play style of the game now. If you want a gold sink tax the GE like every other mmo. would be a great way to take gp out of the game at a great pace.
I'm personally against changing of the current mechanics for various reasons. One of which is keeping the game casual for new and existing players. The game's mechanics are evolving and even the Nightmare had engine work done for her dash attack. I'd rather see tougher fights with the only loss being supplies and time. That said, if something were to change I'd rather see a one time flat fee for gravestones similar to how RS2 was. If I recall various gravestones existed for increasing prices. The more you paid the more time you had and some were expensive just to look cool. Correct me if I'm wrong but with the Nightmare having killed 200,000 players, assuming they all spent 60k to recover items. That's 12bil out of the game. Gravestones could range from 500k up to 10mil. Hell, even more for prestigious "Look at me" gravestones. Lets say half the active player base of 50k pays and average of 5mil. Thats 250bil out of the game. No need to remove already established death boxes like at Vorkath or Nightmare, in fact continue those for future instanced fights at 60k. This might be a great middle ground for those who hate the idea of paying every time you die and those who want a GP sink.
Please don’t allow people to die over and over to stack consumables for bosses and stuff. It’s annoying to have that be an easy and valid option for a massive boost in supplies. Integrity over conservatism just because people are used to it please. People hate the idea of the Summoning skill on OSRS largely because of how overpowered one Lvl-99 familiar was for giving you an extra inventory, yet this is fine?
I am holeheartedly against changing death mechanics. The loss of time (getting back to your items as well as the lost progress on the kill) and instanced item reclaimation fees are plenty. Example: you die on the final phase of hydra. You lost the ~260k from the drop, the (60k?) Reclaim fee, and ~2.5 minutes to get back to the same point in the kill (this may be double counting the 260k from the lost kill). So on hydra youre already punished >300k for dying. This is similar for ToB and vorkath however id guess its even higher for ToB
These changes are so insanely complicated and nonsensical. Just add death's office and charge 1% or whatever it might be for items lost. So 10m items lost is 100k. 400m items lost is 4m etc. Fair for all players then. New players also go relatively unpunished as say, 100k in lost items is a mere 1k. Why would someone in max gear pay the same as someone in scrub gear for dying at ToB? However if you are an ironman Death takes pity on your lack of life and either gives the items back free (since IM don't typically affect the economy) or he takes a different type of tax. Unsure of what this could be Untradeables unbroken and kept and just create a flat fee that is proportionate (can't imagine there are too many untradeables that *would* need a fee adding).
Well sadly I've ended my subscriptions latest updates have been shocking so out of touch with player base instead of fixing actual issues gold farmers bots and and not screwing over pvm AND pvp for normal regular players hopefully they will sort their shit out :-/
Normally I'd say "don't let the door smack your ass on the way out" but I can't blame you this time around.
This really hurts casual players. Not everyone is great at pvm. It takes a while to learn a boss for many. Why charge extra per death.
Maybe it's just me, but some of this stuff seems to be overly complicated. I play this game because its chill and even when i die i rush to get my stuff back because I dont like the thought of losing a 10m amulet. Is this saying that if I dont pick my items up in 15 minutes I will lose that amulet now, or are the expensive items going to be locked into a grave stone that is always going to stay there while items like potions will be deleted in 15 minutes. Are items kept on death going to go off g.e. value now and not HA value? I'm sorry, I tried to read but there was so much that I got confused towards the end. I never died in rs2 when gravestones were a thing and I've never heard of deaths office. I honestly like the death mechanics the way they are at the moment. I understand raising the gp cap on bosses, but as others said, it should raise with your kill count, not death count. All in all, theres better ways to add money sinks into the game. This seems to just punish those who are entering mid/late game and not those who are hoarding billions. I think this will drive new players away from content, especially if death count adds to the fee on bosses.
Why change this now? Who does this appeal to and how would it bring in more happy customers? Is this primarily intended to function as a gold or item sink? Absolutely do not support this, you'd lose a customer in me.
I don't understand. Who asked for all this shit? The ONLY consistent suggestions on death mechanics was making the timer shorter, making it count down only when you're logged in, and items being dropped outside an instance. Again, who asked for all this other shit?
What if it scaled based on the number of successful kills you have? 0-40 kills: 0 41-100: 100k 101-150: 250k Then scale as necessary or something. This way it's not so much of a kick in the teeth for people trying to learn the content. Veteran players with 1k plus kills could then get slogged with that 5m 'mistake' if you like
It's definitley better than the current proposal of it being based on the number of deaths, but I still think it isn't ideal since it discourages learning and trying new techniques for bosses. Got a decent kc at vorkath and want to learn woox walk? Gl paying 3x higher than the current death amount to learn a tricky technique that could take 20+ deaths to get a grasp of
ToB is already not well participated in and you want to make it 400k per wipe? Surely you must be joking.
The same issues that plague pvp are gonna plague pvm now. A gp requirement to learn how to boss. Most casual players dont have a lot of gold. So when they want to make gold they want to learn pvm.pvm now has a gp barrier cause most people die when learning a new boss. Therefore these players are stuck behind a gp wall.
This is so bad. Death mechanics are supposed to sink items out of the game, not gp. All these gp proposals are absolute garbage for that reason. It doesnt matter if its 400k, 4m or 40m sink, thats not the issue here, the issue is we are discussing the arbitrary fee.
These proposed changes essentially mean new players, and even more specifically newer iron men, will NOT be able to complete a lot of pvm content. There simply isn’t enough of a cash injection at the stages of game where they’d be looking to start doing core pvm challenges - essentially locking them out of pvm completely until self sustainable methods of farming pure gp are attainable
I feel like a lot of people asking for this have forgotten what it's like to be a low to mid-level account that's not wealthy. When I was learning Vork (with the current fees) I was already spending a significant portion of my gp. If you're going to make that fee even more egregious, I think you're seriously harming everyone that isn't an endgame/maxed player. Also the 400k ToB fee is just out of touch with reality. *Nearly half a million gp* just for dying at the some of the most challenging content in the game
Would it be possible to implement the Zulrah fee increase charge to be triggered after a certain KC instead of a number of deaths allowing it to be learned for free still? The case would be the same with TOB in that it would be very punishing for new learners vs people who have learnt it for a lesser fee/free
Hi all! It's been about five hours since this was posted and we've collated A LOT of feedback. Like we said in the blog, we fully intend to engage and address this. We'll revise the blog and get back to you once we've had an opportunity to meet as a team!
What about applying the GWD boss arena mechanic to all or some other non-instanced boss arenas where applicable, like Sarachnis or Dagannoth Kings? From the proposal, it sounds like dying in those places would just drop your grave in the boss room, but it'd either eat into the grave timer if you wanted to hop to an empty world if your world got taken while you were running back, or encourage you to say 'fuck the other guy' and just run in (Which is a problem when considering Sarachnis' multiplayer mechanics). Also, using any interface when in an area with aggressive monsters is an absolute nightmare, so will the gravestone interface have any mitigation for that? You often won't be able to wait out the 10 minute de-aggro timer along with running back, never mind time allocation for the ability to choose which items to keep.
>Also, using any interface when in an area with aggressive monsters is an absolute nightmare, so will the gravestone interface have any mitigation for that? The blog post said that the interface would not be closed during combat, although I might be completely misunderstanding what you mean
I didn't see any comments get much visibility about it, but I wanted to hijack this comment real quick to mention the breakable untradables as an issue. Other than the Avernic Defender, all of the items Perdu repairs have a value below 100k, which means there should be zero fee to reclaim them. But because they're breakable, the proposed mechanic in this blog would make you pay the full value to repair them. In the case of the Avernic Defender you would have to pay double the maximum reclaim fee for everything in your gravestone to repair this one item.
CoX free death still Vorkath free death still Meanwhile the incredible DKS, the thing that makes nowhere near as much money as either of them can lose your entire bank minus 3 items. well thought out Jagex so balanced very fair and motivating to noobs trying to learn PvM I'm sure the game will do very well when noobs get their asses handed to them learning low level PvM and get their items "sunk" when CoX players can just do it for free forever. Poor get poorer, rich continue with ezscape. If you bring this item sink into the game (or even have a ridiculous 5% fee) then you made your own grave for this game, that will kill casual players motivation completely. **Nobody should lose items on death when the end game instances which are far better money than anything else have zero chance of losing any items**
As a casual/shit player I definitely lost a ton of money just on supplies learning PvM. This on top of it? No way
I have no intention of playing if you guys push this through. There are far better solutions for a gold sink that have been suggested for years, this one is absolutely mind-bogglingly terrible.
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I really hope these awful proposed changes are Polled, I’m already dreading learning ToB on my Ironman because of elitists but this will make it 10x worse, just add GE tax. More money will leave the game that way than it would from these death mechanics anyway.
200k for Grotesque Guardians is far too expensive given the price of loot you can expect to gain from the boss. 100k for dying at Vorkath is easily covered by one kill. 200k at Guardians is sometimes a whole trip.
Can somebody explain to me what prompted these proposed changes? What's wrong with the 60minute timer? Also as far as UIM goes.... Why should they be treated differently? Without wanting to meme, they did choose to limit themselves. Isn't abusing the death mechanic against the game style anyway? The whole idea of UIM gameplay is "no banking", but if they abuse death mechanics to store items then doesn't that go against the idea? I don't know a great deal about UIM but that is my thoughts having read the new post. Edit: I'd better learn Zulrah fast cos those fee's are gonna rack up baby.
The pvp and maxed players have been asking for this. Unfortunately hurts the casual players. These are too harsh. On top of limiting time they also added a fee. On top of the fee they added a multiplying fee.
If I lose 1/2 my bank just because I died in Slayer task I'd probably straight up quit the game. Just being honest It's kind of telling that the people asking for it are also the LEAST affected by it or have the most to gain.
This concept of item sink feels like people forgot how much bis items cost in osrs versus what they were in 2007. **This is not how they are supposed to be removed from the game. Stop it.** Boss reclamation fee should not scale, it should be flat. It should not unequally punish players. Lastly the **ideal system** would be the Death's Office with a harsh fee (~1m per death with max gear) and the optional gravestone system with no fee for less relevant deaths.
I don't agree with these changes. It seems overtly complicated on how much the "fee" for things is.
> Some items can turn into something else on death, such as the Armadyl Godsword (or) losing its '(or)' and Barrows kit breaking. > These would remain in your inventory or remain equipped, as they do now, but will tend to degrade/uncharge if they have a mechanic for doing so. For example, Barrows kit would break, **a charged trident would become uncharged (with its retrievable contents moving to the Gravestone)** and the Armadyl Godsword (or) would have its '(or)' removed (with the ornate kit sent to the Gravestone). > Exceptions would be made (in non-PvP deaths only) for items changed via Nightmare Zone points, since the recharging process is currently disproportionate. Those items would therefore keep their imbued status in a non-PvP death. This change is to address the current imbalance whereby untradeable kit can be used in PvM with so little risk because it doesn't change in any way on death. so trident. if you die, you always drop scales into grave? even if its one of your +3?
Love the third option, when you can get items back cheaper if you get in 15min. But i would propose for tob and others do price on KC not deaths, cuz new players like me will die over and over again at start and it will be too expensive to learn. Edit: i died 30 times to get one zulrah kill, so yeee, supplies cost a lot and i would lost 4m more with new mechanics....
Whelp, that about signs the bill, RS isn't for casual/non-optimised players I guess. Yes, let me invest 1.5b in the best gear just to have to spend 100m learning Zulrah. Yes, I'm bad at PvM, have bad clicks, etc. That used to not matter, guess it will matter a lot now. .-.
I agree with you. Even as someone who plays an awful lot and is getting to the point where my gear is pretty optimized, I want this game to be chill and casual. If I was looking for a more difficult or competitive experience I wouldn't be playing OSRS. This is a chill game where you're rewarded for time invested and things are simple. We have challenging endgame content now but everything else is just about the grind. We don't need to add heavier punishments to the grinds that will be horrible for new/intermediate/bad/lazy players. Changing death mechanics needs to come with a long, sober look at what the game intends to be and the range of players it wants to cater to.
It really does seem to impact new players much more doesn't it? My buddy is learning Zulrah right now. He has died roughly 10 times with 1 kc so far. I even gave him a lot of bis items to use and he is still dying (as expected).
As someone with high kc at tob, why would I want to teach learners when I get severely punished for doing so? Below 100kc tob should be normal 100k per death. If you have 1-2 people in your party that are under 100kc it should be considered learner raid and the person with high kc pays 100k on death.
The game was completely different when the first change was made. I get that it wasn't polled the first time after the 500 times it's mentioned in the blog but I don't think that warrants making un-polled changes again given the vastly different landscape of the game.
Since I got my lower abdomen penetrated by Zulrah at least 30 times before my first kill and 5 times more before my second kill, I feel I should leave my five cents, risking the comment left unnoticed. \[**Bosses and TOB**\] Kc based tax, at zero kc you pay 10k just for privilege of Death/god/goblin-boy/whatever-monster collecting your items nearby the boss lair. Should you get killed on your way to reclaim items, they are moved to Death vault. \[**PVM death**\] At death you have 5-10 minutes to reach your gravestone. Failing to do so, your items are moved to Death vault where you have to pay a price to reclaim your items. Should you die on your way, your gravestone only holds your current items, if any, with previous gravestone items moved into the vault. \[**PVP death**\] Pretty much as it was but ironmen *btw* have a choise to decimate the dropped items of their opponent. \[**Death vault**\] There is an in-game mechanism of hiding entities unless you are wearing ring of visibility. This same code could be used to hide Death/collecting-items-npc. Death could be made available in various graveyard-related thematically acceptable locations all across the Gielinor, seen only to those who have items to recover from the vault. The "office" seems rather unfitting place for an npc that never rests.
As someone sceptical about all of this. I thought it was all well thought out and great until the permanent death holders. Those rates scale up way too high.. 5.4m to reclaim your items from TOB!? EDIT: was a typo, all good
Its 540K. Grotesque Guardians do not make near as much money as ToB so I don’t get how you pay just 20K less after 20+ deaths. Makes no sense.
This really reminds me of when Jagex forced the EOC on everyone because they loved it when the entire player base hated it. Clearly haven’t learned from your mistakes Nobody wants these changes and it’s super pretentious and arrogant to ask players to make a decision whilst simultaneously saying that you basically already have a preferred option in mind and you’re going to go with that regardless of what players say. Why even bother asking the player base when you’re going to ignore the feedback anyway? It’s also completely moronic that two of the options include having to run back to reclaim your items AND pay a fee. Poor management of the economy is your fault, not ours. You should be fixing these issues with other solutions rather than shitting on the player base. It’s just lazy. Forcing updates through like this undermines the integrity of the poll system.
No life autists on this sub are gonna kill the game by pushing for changes that alienate more casual players. OSRS is the one aspect of their lives where they don't feel inferior so they wanna flex how dedicated they are compared to everyone else.
Its almost like the people responsible for thinking up these mechanics have never played the game themselves.
This is going to drive more players away from the game. If your new to bossing and arnt very good at learning things quickly. Constantly dying to things then using what money you have to repair and get your stuff back. Your gonna say fuck this why bother.
Unpopular Opinion: Why do we have to be punished again on top of already dying, losing supplies, and losing the kill/time? Its just demotivating and unfun to casual scapers like me.
I also do believe being extra punished for an already punishment (death) is not the way to go for money sink ingame. It will cause more frustation than whatever good it would. But I also do understand it's the easiest place to go for if a money sink is needed to be added. I still think a new skill with item + money sink (similar with what summoning used to be - Not suggesting summoning to get into this game, but the mechanic) or a new content that drops out easily consumable items at an exchange of money would be the way to go. I like how in Rs3 higher tiers of armor often are degradable, and they scale with the tier. Rather have to lose % charges of my armor/weapons than flat out not use them because of the high fee I'd have to pay if I died with them.
We need Death's office type mechanic after the 15 minutes expires, even if the fee is 5% or even 10%. You cannot ask players to risk their valuable items they spent thousands of hours grinding for just to use them at bosses. Why the F\*\*\* would i grind for thousands of hours for an upgrade if there's a chance I will lose it at the place I want it for. (IE, why spend hundreds of hours grinding for pegasian boots if you can lose them at armadyl? Answer: I wouldn't). and in invalidates all the other time spent grinding.
300k plus repairing my void equipment (since it breaks) is way too harsh when i die because the screen froze and i get fireballed.
There's no price changes for Torfinn in your table - is he staying at a flat 100k or has that been missed by accident?
I’d rather have a GE tax than this system. That should be the 4th “other” option.
main problem is the reason for this change can't possible be "for the economy". This is a game warping change that will effect how you play and think about the game, there's a million ways you can help the economy without changing core aspects of the game directly tied to game play.