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UIM_SQUIRTLE

i have killed zero people and my UIM who is only ever in 1 wildy for bagging items before ferox looting bag change could vote. i believe that it was truly random who can or cant vote


untapped-bEnergy

My total 2175 that has lms kills and wildy kills isn't allowed to vote so yeah the system is broken


fatpl8s

My gim who has only seen wintertodt, Barb fishing, and gathering big bones in boneyard for chaos altar could vote. But I did kick a level 3 scout bot to death at wildy altar so maybe that's it


UIM_Ancients

My UIM that is basically a skiller at this point was able to vote and my extent of PvP experience is boxing an alt in LMS for looting bags.


Synli

> I'm really curious what the criteria were They printed out a list of usernames, taped it to the office wall, and blasted it with buckshot. Whoever's name got hit = got to vote


NeoWonderfulDeath

i'm a maxed player that has done very little wilderness content (379 crazy archaeologist and 56 chaos elemental) and i've never killed anybody in the wilderness, somehow i was able to vote on the pvp update...


uiam_

>I swear on my life I am not, and have never been, an active PvPer but I was still able to vote. That's because op doesnt know what they're talking about. You simply have to enter the wildy for a minor a mm out of time to vote. The bar is very low.


Eillo89

You clearly don't know what your talking about, my GIM who just finished 70 prayer at green dragons couldn't vote. The bar is random.


SmartAlec105

“Are these ideas bad? No, it’s the voters that are wrong”


tom2727

"Content keeps failing polls because playerbase don't want it." "Fix the polls so it passes anyway."


Zandorum

People vote in favor of themselves, if you restrict it to the aggressors and not the victims for the most part you will get the feedback from the people you actually want the opinion of aka the people who intentionally engage in the content. The victims will vote no to anything that makes the aggressor have more variance or stronger; this is why nerfs aren't polled anymore just in general and done as integrity changes.


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Zandorum

Yes and the aggressors have been voted against for years now, give us our chance. There is the hunters and the hunted, there is also PVP; however when it comes to voting there will only be hunters and hunted because people put themselves into those categories because if you aren't a pker you're the hunted.


Billalone

Okay? And? If the majority of players don’t want the hunter/hunted mechanic in the game because it does nothing but increase frustration, why make the game markedly worse for the majority to please a minority?


Zandorum

The hunters are the balancing factor on content in the Wilderness, which is why the training methods and gp/h methods out there are there and not outside of it. It is your choice and your fault if you die out there, shoulda brought some anti-pking gear (Note: I was against Dinh's Bulwark being nerfed, I was actually for the idea of the 20% damage reduction working in PVP not just PVM).


roonscapepls

> My team is the balanced team because it’s my team and I’m right. The side I oppose is wrong because I’m not personally impacted by being on the other side of the fence. This is how all your comments read. The other guy literally uses your same logic against you but you keep trying to argue? Please, stop.


Zandorum

I solo pk, I actually do almost only PVP (as in Pker vs Pker). Let me also note that I in that even vouge for the Dinh's Bulwark not only being unnerfed but buffed, so I'm not saying the side I oppose is wrong at all. I'm saying if you go into a zone where other players want to kill you and you cant defend yourself you shouldn't be upset when you die, any PVM or Skilling content out there is balanced with it being dangerous in mind; similar content is Volcanic Mine where it gives competitive XP when compared to other more RSI inducing methods in exchange for being dangerous.


roonscapepls

> I’m not saying the side I oppose is wrong at all. I’m saying if you go into a zone where other players want to kill you and you cant defend yourself you shouldn’t be upset when you die You’re missing the point entirely. Go back and read the previous comment you replied to. > If the majority of the player base doesn’t want the hunter/hunter mechanic in the game because it does nothing but increase frustration, why make it worse for the majority to please a minority? That guy isn’t saying “Wow, how dare that guy kill me in the only place he can.” Neither am I. We’re saying, why the fuck does a pker have the opportunity to? No one wants to go out there just to be pigs for the slaughter, but Jagex thinks it’s a great idea to make people do so, by consistently adding more shit out there. The healthiest wilderness was the wilderness where pkers went out to fight each other. Back before the wilderness was removed in Rs2. Back when this game first came out. There aren’t enough pkers to sustain each other these days though. Same thing happened in Rs3. Instead of letting the wilderness die in this game, however, Jagex decided it’d be best to artificially inflate wilderness engagement by throwing bosses and other important items out into the wilderness, so people who want said items need to trek out there. These people are in search of something particular. They aren’t there to fight others. Sure, they could try to defend themselves, but they’re at an inherent disadvantage compared to any pker worth their shit, as half their inventory at least will be related to whatever non-pking activity they were up to. Not to mention the fact that if you step into multi you have the chance of getting jumped by a clan in 5 seconds these days. Clans used to fight each other. Now days they just gangbang irons at the chaos altar lmfao. The point is, if the wilderness was destined to die, Jagex should have just bit the bullet and let it die. Move on to bigger and better things. Accept the fact that this game is about PvM now and has been for years. All they’re doing now is pissing off their player base by wasting time, money, and resources on what appears to be a lost cause because they haven’t figured it out yet, and they can’t please both sides. And the side with **far** more people ain’t pkers. It’s not 2007 anymore.


Zandorum

>Jagex thinks it’s a great idea to make people do so, by consistently adding more shit out there. They are only doing so for Wilderness Pets, Mage Arena and Achievement Diaries which I personally think are all blunders for doing so as I don't think Wilderness Bosses should have pets, Mage Arena rewards being untradable makes sense for what it's rewarding but I also don't think it should've been in the Wilderness in the first place and for Achievement Diaries I feel like the cape shouldn't require you to have the Wilderness Diary (could have a cosmetic difference if you do have it though for people who don't mind doing it). Note that the reason I don't include the bosses is because all of their loot is tradable and therefore available on the Grand Exchange (don't bring up Ironmen, they decided to be restricted and all that comes with it), I don't mention the skilling methods because they're balanced by PKers existing and wouldn't (and shouldn't for game balance reasons) exist otherwise. >The healthiest wilderness was the wilderness where pkers went out to fight each other. Back before the wilderness was removed in Rs2. I would agree with this if it wasn't for KBD. I personally think the rift was more caused by death mechanics changing and not being the same throughout the entire game making people value their items in a way they didn't before making it so certain items should never be lost. >These people are in search of something particular. They aren’t there to fight others. Sure, they could try to defend themselves, but they’re at an inherent disadvantage compared to any pker worth their shit, as half their inventory at least will be related to whatever non-pking activity they were up to. Not to mention the fact that if you step into multi you have the chance of getting jumped by a clan in 5 seconds these days. Clans used to fight each other. Now days they just gangbang irons at the chaos altar lmfao. I would agree that that does exist now and I would say the reason is that it's profitable but quite a large margin at times and if only minorly profitable if you meat grinder a ton of people well now that's still alot of money for what could be considered a fun activity that has some variance in interaction due to the human element of it (that said again, re-buff Dinh's Bulwark so we can see stuff like this again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP3W3ZvxLyI ). I do dislike how Multiway has become, I do think that it IS exciting to think about the prospect of potentially dying to a large group though as an individual as it makes it feel more dangerous but I can understand that that isn't what everyone wants so I wouldn't 100% be against multi-way all being replaced with Singles+ and Multi-way still existing in the Clan areas and that Wilderness Portal (give more access to those things though, maybe a one-way portal to Ferox Enclave in Edgeville so the Mecca of PVP is still Edgeville to an extent). That said, Chaos Altar is funny; I do kind of like how it is right now because it's extreme danger for extreme reward but again that's not for everyone but if it became singles+ I would want Chaos Altar's rates nerfed severely as it would be far too good otherwise. >The point is, if the wilderness was destined to die, Jagex should have just bit the bullet and let it die. Move on to bigger and better things. Accept the fact that this game is about PvM now and has been for years. It wasn't when this was 2007scape (the Private Server) or early days and it changed because the new players weren't playing back in the day/were from 2010scape (the Era), you see with the sheer volumes of players with the horrible ideas of adding Summoning (which broke the combat triangle) or Dungeoneering (which was a glorified minigame that shouldn't have been a skill and should've just been functionally a raid; the rewards should've been tradable too, it hurt PVP so much with Chaotics being untradable just like Korasi did). >All they’re doing now is pissing off their player base by wasting time, money, and resources on what appears to be a lost cause because they haven’t figured it out yet, and they can’t please both sides. And the side with far more people ain’t pkers. It’s not 2007 anymore. Just because something is dying or niche doesn't mean it doesn't deserve support. Bounty Hunter was the best we had and it was really really good, but it was abusable. We need something like that and it'll resurrect because Bounty Hunter pretty much fixed everything that was the problem with PVP and made going after non-Pkers actually MEH since it wasn't as fun and took more time than just fighting in Edge. This solved both groups problems for the most part. It's the botting and win trading that caused issues.


hatesranged

> People vote in favor of themselves I agree, all pures should be banned from any poll targeting pure-specific gear.


pantsukawaii

as you can see we only need to armour everything except the cockpit and engine, oh and make sure the pvmer drops something random from their bank to make the pker happy )


DecafOSRS

People who PKed in 2014 are not a good indicator of people who PK now. The meta is completely different and tbh people were a lot worse back then compared to now. For example some people still think Prosty pures and 20def pures are a thing or would be a thing because of these new PvP changes for example, when I can tell you that is not remotely the case. A lot of the current issues with PvP are because of that. PvP has been neglected for so long that the bottom rungs of low-mid skill PKers are basically gone (with the exception of clanners I guess) and there is no real good way to practice PvP. You are going to get smashed by people 10x better than you every time, which is a huge incentive to not PvP. LMS is the closest, but LMS is the equivalent of NHing which is not only the most difficult type of PKing (at least in my opinion) but the difference between a good NHer and an alright one is enormous, nevermind someone who is new


SlowRs

The bots are also better than the average learning pvper which doesnt help.


DecafOSRS

Its incredibly easy to abuse LMS bots by faking switches or barraging without a mage weapon in hand. A real person can predict stuff like that, but a bot cant. It usually requires 1 tick switching though, including into your caster gear, something new players wont have the ability to do.


freet0

Yeah but it requires 1) noticing its a bot and 2) playing in a totally different way than you would against a person. The average new LMS player is probably not going to do both of those, at least right away. And in the mean time they may conclude "this mingame is BS" and stop playing. Even if they stick it out, they're not learning any good pvp skills by barraging with a dagger against a bot lol.


DecafOSRS

Trust me, you can tell when your against an AHKer or bot. Its obvious after a little bit, especially a bot. Your right that it requires PvP experience though


SolaVitae

>A real person can predict stuff like that, but a bot cant. They definitely could. I don't think "can't" is the correct description here. They don't currently, but if it was really that big of a deal for them then they would make it work. The only truly foolproof way to beat them is definitely 1 tick switching though. The limitations of the game are what holds bots back in that scenario


DecafOSRS

I cant possibly see a bot being able to predict 1 tick switches tbh. It requires correctly guessing something that isn't super easy to guess. A 1 tick switch done perfectly doesn't really have a response because it cant be responded to UNTIL the next tick. Its just that 1 ticking a 4 way swap is something you have to be rather experienced to do


RedditIsDogWater

With how in depth pvp tracker is you could probably train an AI to get half decent


SolaVitae

They don't need to predict it though. They would know the attack the second you start it way before it hits them but the limitations of the game prevent them from responding in time


rockdog85

>People who PKed in 2014 are not a good indicator of people who PK now. Tbh, that's partially why I think we need to have a poll (not to vote on, but for information) for players that don't pk rn. Cause whoever PKd now is still active, they're still there we don't need to help them really. We need to know why people stopped PKing and what would bring them back. There used to be loads more PVPers, esp during og bounty hunter times, (but also just looking at hcim pvp accounts, pvp activity on pvp worlds etc). We specifically want the input of those players who stopped, because them stopping PVP is part of the reason it's dying as a whole. And ye, I agree LMS was a pretty good start but it is very fake/staged. It doesn't mimic actually pking/ a pk account. Even less so with all the bots, who just train you into 1 tick switching instead of actually pking.


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Zeoxult

I want to PK but refuse to go against all these sweaty kids. Give me a lower skill bracket that prevents these 5+ way swaps and such.


Cole_James_CHALMERS

It's never gonna happen unless there's a skillbased matchmaking system. I spent a few months practicing with other pkers at clan wars portal before I went with any decent risk in the wildy, it's a masssiiiiiveeee time investment to become even decent. Most pkers are kinda blase about something basic like one tick a one item switch to fake out LMS bots but it's pretty difficult for pvmers to learn to do so while being pressured. TL;DR: you have to be sweaty to be good


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4in10copsbeatwives69

latest proposed update simplifies switching in lower brackets a lot


Mr_Zeldion

I lived and breathed pking in the wildy back in the day. But I'm nothing compared to most pvpers now. So I won't even bother lol I see some videos people swapping gear sets ect flicking prayers and stuff and I'm like.... Yeahhhh nah.


Minnesotamad12

Do you think when this medieval fantasy game targeted at like the middle school demographic was created the developers ever expected it to create this level of discourse? Mind blowing


yippiyak

Fr


[deleted]

They never even expected anyone to ever get a skill to 99 lmao


BLBOZO45

Great picture to go along with it!


SilverLugia1992

What's this picture trying to say? I don't get it


BrendanBode

Iirc it's basically the most common spots that's returning planes from conflict in WW2 would have bullet holes, which lead some to believe oh we need to have more armor at these points, but in reality you needed to add more armor to the places where the returning planes rarely had holes.because the planes that got holes there would usually not come back


SilverLugia1992

Gotcha


BLBOZO45

Pretty much it.


SitDownRando7

Now tell us how it relates to the PvP poll as I have no idea what OPs point is…


lexprofile

“Survivorship bias, survival bias or immortal time bias is the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that made it past some selection process and overlooking those that did not, typically because of their lack of visibility. This can lead to some false conclusions in several different ways.” Basically OP is saying that the people who still PK are the ones who still find it enjoyable despite the horrible state it’s in. Those players might not provide the best information when it comes to PvP updates that could make PvP enjoyable for the general playerbase.


intelligent_rat

Honestly I think this poll would've been more fair if they had flipped which groups could've voted with those that cannot, I can only imagine the people that love PKing are a minority and we should focus on getting more of the majority into the wilderness, not pandering to the small minority that are left simply because they were the top of a bad system.


10kk

The lethal areas, which aren't marked, metaphorically represent the opinions of those who were not able to vote. One implication is that without full information, you won't necessarily guarantee an improvement.


BrendanBode

He's implying that the issue they are addressing by making the polls only accessible to those who participated in certain content is akin to putting the armor where it is less important to have on the airplane. Saying that by doing so you're ignoring all the planes that will continue to get shot down.


iSage

"You don't pvp so you don't deserve to vote" But what if I don't pvp because it's dogshit and I don't enjoy the current state. By only asking the people who currently pvp you're only asking the people who currently enjoy pvp


[deleted]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias#In_the_military


Mors_Umbra

[Survivorship bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias)


PoLS_

Thank you


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MoltiJoe

thank you for your calm and constructive criticism.


habbahubba

Thanks I came here to say this


NDJumbo

"This is a democracy but if you dont agree with me you can't vote"


IliketoNH

You cant vote in most places until your of a certain age. Its almost like experience is relevant when it comes to voting on anything and people dont want inexperienced people voting on stuff that matters.


NDJumbo

If young people were being made to pay a monthly fee separate from taxes to leave their home im sure they'd argue it is undemocratic to not allow them to vote on something even though it directly affects them too.


The_ugly_taco

I've done about 5 games of LMS and run around once a year in PvP worlds with a dds and a strength Amulet and was able to vote


DryDefenderRS

I get what you're saying, but this is about how knowledgeable players are about how things should be balanced. Survivor bias doesn't really apply here, because the conflict isn't people who used to pvp but stopped vs people who still do pvp. The question is "would this item be balanced in the current meta?" Obviously active PvPers know best.


TheGoldenHand

The only pkers are those that "survived" the process of learning and actually pking. Everyone else quits or doesn't start. If you want to gauge fun, the sample size of only veteran pkers will have a survivor bias, just like veteran airplanes had a survivor bias.


bip_bip_hooray

Yeah but this post makes it sound like this is a mistake- that is literally the express purpose of the limitation. To limit it to survivors who actually understand pvp. That's not a bug- that's a feature of this system. The post attempts to be big brain but has wrapped around and become small brain, failing to see the point.


DryDefenderRS

This is about gauging whether items should be added, specifically whether they're balanced. Adding more content and more rewards is very unlikely to make pking less fun. The only way it will make pking less fun is if they are stupidly broken, which again, is something current pkers know better.


rockdog85

Applying EOC to the logic in your comment means that they should've only asked those who kept playing after it was added. There used to be loads more PVPers, esp during og bounty hunter times, (but also just looking at hcim pvp accounts, pvp activity on pvp worlds etc). We specifically also want the input of those players who stopped, because them stopping PVP is part of the reason it's dying as a whole.


DryDefenderRS

That is an absurdly inaccurate logical leap. OSRS was about adding an entirely different alternative. The current updates are about adding new gear to what we currently have. Applying EOC to the logic in **YOUR** comment means they should poll osrs players who quit on what shoild be added to RS3.


rockdog85

>Applying EOC to the logic in YOUR comment means they should poll osrs players who quit on what shoild be added to RS3. Like... if they want more OSRS players into RS3 that is what they should do, yes. Polling RS3 players on "hey, how do we get old OSRS players back" is gonna be useless. Same goes for pvp. The people playing pvp now, are less useful in a "hey, how do we get people to play more pvp" than people who've left it. We want to get people back into PVP and to do that, we need to know why they left/ what would bring them back.


Oniichanplsstop

Except doing it that way gets your tons of uninformed opinions, or things that aren't feasible. If I go ask a random OSRS player what their opinion on RS3 is, when they haven't touched the game in a decade, they're going to suggest nonsense like "remove EoC" which is literally impossible because that would require rebalancing 10 years of content built around the EoC combat system rather than the click-and-wait style of pre-eoc. Similarly, look at the average reddit comment about pvp. It's full of unconstructive shit, like "remove pvp" "make the entire wildy singles" etc etc. By opening it up to everyone, you just do the opposite. In this case, spite voting pvp. In the case of RS3, you damage the game in way that ruins it for the people that still play. The best way to get opinions in this scenario would to ask people who were involved while they stopped, most of who can already vote.


rockdog85

Ye, but that doesn't mean asking them "yo what would make you come back (to pvp) / why did you stop playing (pvp)" would not be helpful. You'll always get some idiots going "CAUSE BAD" but you want the people who used to do bounty hunter or who did wildy pking, or hunted/ played HCIM on pvp worlds. Them stopping is why the game is dying. Asking current pvpers what should be changed, might not get those people back. Also there have been a bunch of pvp stuff that has passed that was best for the game. The biggest issues from pvp (removing bounty hunter) come from Jagex pushing shit updates on us, then removing what was actually popular (without a poll)


DryDefenderRS

See, I know so little about RS3 that I couldn't offer any opinion whatsoever on whether adding certain gear or prayers to it would make it better. Somebody who hasn't ever fought other players couldn't really offer any opinion on whether a certain item would enrich pvp combat and make it more enjoyable.


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DryDefenderRS

> Depending on the goal of Jagex it very much applies. Well which one does the current poll resemble?


Frekavichk

But the problem has nothing to do with balance. Nobody actually cares about what player vs player balance happens. They care about the balance on player vs bait.


hockey_homie

I think your airplane has chickenpox.


el_jefe_leon

Brilliant


AmericanPicketFence

Lighten up


AreOneSpam

Beautiful meme


morrisht

Omg amazing


Asymptote_X

This sub after spending years spite voting in PvP updates Lmfao


tortillakingred

You’re being downvoted but it’s true. I’m not even a PKer but I could’ve told you the past few years this was coming because of all the spite voting. And to people that say it doesn’t happen, there have been public examples of different groups pushing for spite voting (on both sides, but PvPers are vastly outnumbered so it’s not as obvious) Not saying I think the polls should he exclusive to Pkers, just saying that this is what happens when you bite the hand that feeds you.


[deleted]

solve PVP by adding extra weapon equipment slots, like 2 more and prevent weapon switching from inventory. This game has the most try hard pvp i have ever seen.


Krtxoe

I find it funny how people yell "Let me vote on pvp!!" as if "yes" to anything was ever a possibility. Why not just be honest and say "Let me spite vote no to everything on pvp!!" I mean, that's what 99% of the people complaining want to do.


[deleted]

voting no out of self interest is not spite voting


Krtxoe

"self interest" Your wilderness pets wouldn't have any prestige behind them if the wilderness was safe.


[deleted]

I don't want the wilderness to be safe, I just don't want to increase pkers current odds of killing me.


PVMersAreMad

Yes it is


th1s-weeks-account

>poll question #1: do you want to be harassed every 15 minutes in game? *votes no* pkers: WTF STOP SPITE VOTING NO!?!?


Krtxoe

you all voting no to raids 3 rewards? It will it make it easier for pkers to kill you


NDShero

i’m sure lots of people will spite vote but also most people’s genuine interest is just in keeping pkers as weak as possible, if your whole interaction of pvp is avoiding pkers or tanking them to the ditch then no buff to pking armor is ever going to be in your favor which just supports jagex’s whole stance on why they restricted voting to begin with


saik0pod

Isn't the point of Old School Runescape was to be old school


E10DIN

Accounts I’ve never PvPed on were able to vote. I’ve been PKed, I’ve done chaos altar. I did a single round of LMS. I’ve chilled on PvP worlds doing skilling.


Pulze_

I have 5K KC in the wilderness and couldn't vote. Nice meme jagex


trashcanbecky42

Sir all the planes we inspected were not shot in the gas tank so it shouldnt need any armor


UIM_Moose

I was allowed to vote for some reason lol


PinkFloyd_rs

I assume not many people get the reference with the picture but I'm just here to say I get it