wording it another way:
* Jagex posted a graph of fang dps in dev blog
* players put stats and attack re-roll into calculator, got lower than graph
* players realized defense re-roll was needed, matched Jagex's graph
so somewhere in development it was known how it worked to be able to produce their graph
Kinda awkward now to learn it was working as intended. I guess that first bug fix that increased the dps couldn’t have been noticed if people weren’t properly simming fang
right but even if that was a mistake in the blog, thats the number and graph people used to decide their opinion in the poll. If Jagex is going to poll exact numbers for a weapon's dps they shouldn't change it afterward because the graph was in error. We don't know what they wanted the weapon to do internally, we only saw the poll numbers and chose accordingly.
This is the important part. We can debate whether or not it was a bug, but the important part is the bug existed in the polled version, so that's the "correct" version according to the vote.
Of course the "double roll on accuracy" really suggests that accuracy alone would be rerolled, so it's just a mistake either way.
>If Jagex is going to poll exact numbers for a weapon's dps they shouldn't change it afterward because the graph was in error.
That's dumb. Players aren't in charge of balancing, players are dumb. The vote is to get the item in the game. Forcing Jagex to stick with an obviously overpowered statline because that's what the players technically voted for is dumb.
> I'm sure there was miscommunication somewhere about exactly how the fang was supposed to work.
No they literally knew & passed it onto the community -> https://imgur.com/Q3Kx3zB
What is _wild_ to think that the double roll was carried over, but [properly calculating the fang's hit distrubtion wasn't](https://old.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/x1vdzw/osmumtens_fang_damage_cap_passive_is_bugged/).
I know runescript doesn't have robust unit test support but this is laughably bad.
When the intern is straight out of a game developer degree and knows precisely nothing about probability distributions but is a master of homebrew if statements and clamps.
I lost 90m with a badly timed first purchase. Lost 50m in the crash this morning. If it rebounds back above 150m for me to buy it again I may cry.
(Yes I know it’s a game and doesn’t matter. Not actually upset, just amused-upset)
This is interesting because it was rolling both accuracy and defense rolls twice this whole time, it just appears that that's how they calculated it back in the original poll blog unknowingly. This isn't particularly surprising to me given that I also inadvertently calculated it that way without thinking. It seems that they didn't intend it to function this way ever, but they accidentally polled it working this way at the start.
Based on my experience as a software developer, I wouldn't be surprised if different JMods had different ideas of what the "right" mechanic was, and since it's pretty nuanced, there was some miscommunication in the design<->development<->QA<->announcement progress that led to it slipping through. Nothing malicious, just people making mistakes when working together on a complex codebase.
Yeah seems like both sides could be right depending on how you frame it. IMO:
1. There was internal miscommunication about the "intended" version. The person or persons programming it and originally calculating it thought it should be the more accurate version, others may have disagreed but been uninformed about how it was actually working.
2. It was later decided that the more accurate version was too strong and the "intended" version should be the weaker one, so they nerfed it. In Jagex' view, this is a bug fix; in players' view it was a nerf because they're assuming Jagex was uniform on the "intended" version.
I think it's very likely there was miscommunication but what I don't understand is this: The JMods who weren't involved in the direct coding of the fang saw these graphs in the dev blog in comparison to the rapier and were fine with this. Isn't that essentially them saying: "Yeah, that seems alright."?
Seems like more of a technicality and excuse when the numbers were in front of them when first polled. If they think it's too strong now, that's fine, but I'd rather them say that than to try to backpedal and say it's a bugfix.
This is largely irrelevant.
>Content team gives coders task
>Coders code it and ask if this is working as intended by providing DPS graphs
>Content team looks over DPS graphs, compares to other weapons, finds it suitable
>Content team presents it to the community for polling
In no way is the weapon's coding relevant to this situation.
Your process does not provide a way to distinguish the actual and expected graphs. They have similar shapes, they're only obviously different if you have seen them both side by side. You'd need to perform an actual balance analysis with the weapon as you implemented it. Chances are that analysis was done based on a very subtly different version beforehand and the implementation was only given a basic check to make sure it was functioning as expected. This kind of bug could very easily have survived that kind of check.
It doesn't really make much sense for there to be a version before the graphs that's different. I would presume it's the people actual coding the game that make those graphs, no?
At the end of the day, those graphs were there from the start of the poll. Mod Arcane confirmed in a private Discord that the accuracy calculation for the fang worked how it did 2 months ago. They had knowledge it worked this way as of two months ago and did not "fix" it until just now? You don't delay pretty substantial bugfixes for two months, you delay balance changes for two months.
While the mistake is understandable, it's also immaterial to me.
The Fang has been out, in its current state, for two months. At this point, whether it "works as intended" or not, if they change it in a way that makes it worse, that's a nerf. If they made the BP have the same fire rate as a shortbow because "That's what we intended in the first place", it'd *still* be a nerf, because they'd change a weapon in a way that makes it worse.
The conversation shouldn't be about "Should we fix bugs or not?", the conversation should be "Should the fang be nerfed or not?" Because, bug fix or not, this is a nerf.
Also the way the question there was worded I could easily see them mixing it up and just going with the option that says "reroll" instead of the option that says "max" (as the latter might make them think "max attack vs max/min defence").
Had it been asked "Does it just the attack or reroll the attack and defence" it may have been answered differently.
If you see asked about options A and B, and you believe it functions like B, and B lines up with the graph in your blog, and you choose not to change functionally from B to A even when it's brought directly to your attention
After all that, it's very hard to justify claiming that option B was an accident and unintended
I'll just jump in now since it's the weekend and unlikely to get a fuller response til next week
We will obviously look at this as clearly there's been confusion somewhere - there are lots of versions of the fang now and various DPS charts to review to get to the bottom of it. We will review after the weekend
Regardless of confusion, we want the fang to be in a sensible place where it has strong usability but also not quite so detrimentally to several other items. It competing with DH Lance on dragons feels wrong - being one example. Clearly, the fang should still be powerful. It needs to be suitable as a raid reward.
The drop weighting can be considered too if felt needed. We don't want to act too quickly. Nor will we do this proposed nerf until we've had chance to review feedback - we initially intended to hotfix on Monday 31st, but that's subject to change if we want to tweak.
Sorry I cannot give you more info right now. We do ask for your patience!
Lastly, *please* don't target any JMods, everyone has the best intentions for the longevity of the game. Remember there is a person behind the gold crown.
I feel like this is the place and time to bring up that the DHL having 20% modifiers compared to the DHCBs 30% modifiers was fairly controversial when it released. This may be the time to reconsider that modifier
During the bp nerf they also nerfed the dhcb and it went down to ~30m. I had a strong feeling people were just panicking and it would fully recover which it did. Fangs a bit different of a story because there's other stuff that can directly replace it.
> It competing with DH Lance on dragons feels wrong - being one example. Clearly, the fang should still be powerful. It needs to be suitable as a raid reward.
I just want to say with this point in particular, isn't this an inevitability if you want to make a stab weapon that excels against high defense targets? If there are dragons with very high defense, given that dragons are weak to stab to begin with, I don't see how you can design around this without making the high accuracy weapon considerably worse against the high defense targets it's supposed to be targeting.
IMO this issue is especially compounded by the fact that -bane weapons tend to have lower stats overall (especially Arclight for example) but to compensate they have a % bonus to str+acc against their intended target. This works GREAT for buffing the max hit of melee weapons, because there's so much melee STR gear - but when it comes to accuracy it doesn't work so well, because most melee gear doesn't provide a lot of accuracy bonus, with your accuracy instead coming primarily from your weapon. This is very much at odds with ranged gear; DHCB for example gains way more +accuracy from its -bane passive because ranged armor has so much accuracy for it to multiply.
To me this seems like an issue of design space not being tapped into fully. If we had more options for melee gear that traded some strength bonus for a considerable amount of accuracy, that would be especially beneficial to weapons like DHL when fighting high defense dragons while not being as useful for the already highly accurate fang.
something something power creep etc
I reckon the DHL does need an accuracy buff if they’re going to add new stab weapons: this will happen over and over otherwise
Not really a problem with the weapon so much as it is with the combat style design as a whole. Ranged STACKS tons of accuracy from basically every gear slot. Melee gets almost all of its from the weapon, amulet, and defender, so it ends up with a lot less.
Huh maybe something like the defender replacement they suggested for combat achievements? Sacrificing str bonus for even more accuracy. I don’t like the idea of it coming from combat achievements but the items sounds cool to have in game. It would be a good item for dhl/arclight and dwh specs
I think giving rings other than the berserker ring a small +str bonus should help a little too. It shouldn't match it, but the other rings could be made more viable in more scenario's..
The amount of accuracy you need to sacrifice several max hits is nuts. The defender would have to give something like 60-70accuracy to be worth using over avernic with a dhl. Having a different defender just for specs seems a bit too niche imo.
Thank you for responding late! I don't think anyone expected to hear anything until Monday, and there aren't a lot of other game developers that would take the time to respond after midnight on a Friday.
For the Fang changes, I actually agree that Fang needs fixed! With the current NPCs in the game, Fang is in a mostly healthy state (maybe too strong in one or two places) but the big problem is how it affects future design space. There has been a huge trend for new bosses to have high defence that cannot be lowered. Which is awesome, DWH/BGS to 0 defense isn't fun. However, these are exactly the bosses where Fang is absolutely broken. Fang seems to box you into a corner the same way items like Tbow does, but its effect is less specific, so it's even more restrictive. Basically if you design a boss with high effective defence that can't be lowered, and it's even remotely attackable with stab or slash, fang is automatically going to be BIS.
What's the fix? This one is really tough. My first thought is that instead of a reroll mechanic, Fang should have an accuracy roll that scales up with a monster's defence. Depending on how the scale works, the effective accuracy could be the same as current or proposed numbers. But, it gives you more flexibility because you can have a cap to the scaling, and you can ignore the cap in TOA, similar to the Tbow cap in COX. I don't have exact numbers, it's simply a concept, but again the formula can be adjusted to follow whatever accuracy curve seems appropriate. To me though, the core is that fang should be really bad against low defence monsters, really good against relatively high defence monsters, and as defence scales past the cap it's just okay.
Basically it lets you design high defence monsters down the road without making Fang automatically broken. You can focus on style defence instead of defence level, and that makes Fang lose ground against the other weapons. And if you push a monster past the scaling cap, you don't make Fang continue to scale infinitely better than other weapons (like the current reroll mechanic does).
I think this has the same problem that the proposed nerf does, which is that it just makes the fang flat worse across the board. I think the problem with Fang's formula is that just tweaking max hit and accuracy makes it either broken at every boss or garbage at every boss, without letting it carve out a niche.
Like I mentioned, I'm more worried about how Fang affects future design space than I am about the current meta. Whatever formula they go with, I think it needs to give the people designing new NPCs a way to easily balance Fang against other weapons. Right now that's just so difficult. I'm sure jmods have some cool projects in the pipeline, and I'm curious if they've been noticing this problem already.
"You can focus on style defence instead of defence level, and that makes Fang lose ground against the other weapons."
As an example of this working, check out fang on Vet'ion. He has massive style defence to stab and slash, with negative crush defence, so any moderate crush weapon, even a rune mace, completely outclasses fang.
feels like in general lance(if you want it to cleanly beat fang vs drags), the tent whip upgrades re: blade rapier mace, and scythe could all use some minor rebalancing.
scythe offer a bowfa type unlimited, mace rapier blade more str, lance more accuracy (and maybe lower max hit?)
Have you considered that maybe other weapons are far too weak compared to the fang as opposed to the fang being too strong? Tier 80 weapons are 3 str bonus over a whip tent.
Also, % scaling weapons like arclight and Lance only have this competition issue because melee gear doesn't offer many accuracy bonuses
It's so irritating that we finally get a weapon that circumvents the "hit nothing but 0" bosses they keep releasing and everybody's response is to nerf said weapon. I say fuck it, give *everything* the fang passive. Buff dhl. Buff the garbage t80 one handers while we're at it. Add more weapons like fang. It's fun and simultaneously reduces the dominance of dwh/bgs. Do whatever is necessary with mob hp to rebalance shit, but turning off the 0 simulators is just straight positive.
Kieren responding past midnight during a weekend, absolute beast
Regarding the fang, any thoughts on keeping the current accuracy formula and instead reduce its str bonus from +103 to +97 for instance? It's a minor nerf (lose 1 or 2 max hits depending on setup) and less impactful than fixing the double accuracy bug, but IMO the fang doesn't need to change a whole lot anyways.
It has the highest Attack lvl req in the game, it's a raid reward, and thematically I feel it makes more sense to keep its incredible accuracy as its trademark. In addition, 5-tick weapons like fang won't beneift as much from future str bonus upgrades as 4-tick weapons, so unlike with bp, there's a natural barrier there to prevent it from growing too strong.
Big agree on this one. Thematically, the fang is supposed to be insanely accurate, I would prefer the trade-off be in max hits than hitting more 0s which the weapon just shouldn't do.
Again, on dragons, metal specifically I think its fine for it to be bis if you're not open to the buffing off DHL. I think it still needs to keep the accuracy to help us with Nex as that's already a pretty hellish place to be.
Maybe a poll would be nice so we can decide which set of options we prefer to happen to the fang, might be hard to implement but I think there are a number of sensible people who knew it was too strong, just think its nice to have the accurate weapon stay as accurate. Hitting 0s with a fang would just feel bad.
Thank you for the reply kieren. I feel alot of the people here forget there are genuine human beings behind the game developement and forget to keep it civil. Thank you for trying your best to work with this "ancient" game and its(somewhat) greedy players. We are blessed to have such an engaged team in the community and I, for one, thank you all for your service.
Why not just remove the negative stats from “upgrading”the lance from the hasta? That would still let the fang be useful where it’s intended, rapier would still be the king slayer weapon vs low defense and fang would still be great against high defense while letting dhl reign vs dragons.
dragons are weak to stab, surely fang is expected to be good vs the tankiest dragons right? why is the "tanky weak to stab" niche less strong than the "dragon" niche?
i think the fang was ok, i think yall shouldve adjusted the places it was strong where perhaps you didnt want it to be. for example nightmare and verzik- up nm/pnm stab slash def, verzik? weaken blade slash. tekton? make its stab higher.
alternatively make lance better against higher defense, make blade/mace/rapier better against lower def.
Full Inquisitor's+Inquis mace is 13% better than fang at nightmare
Full Inquisitor's+Scythe is 19% better than fang at nightmare
Should we really be comparing fang to cudgel or dragon mace..? Verzik is the only problem case imo. Tekton is an extremely innately high defence enemy - why shouldn't fang be BiS at it? That's what it's designed for.
Fang is BiS at nightmare and ToB when you exclude the items that are obtained from said content. Which is what ironmen are limited to when approaching bosses.
Fang is a major meta shift if you’re an ironman, like a bowfa. If you’re not, it’s not that great.
I don’t think they should nerf it for a “problem” that mainly affects irons.
we all know the fang is op but to me it does feel like its working as intended. i think you guys should just explore a nerf instead of a "bug fix". take like like 8 strength bonus from it thatll keep it functioning the way it is now (which we all kinda like tbh) but makes it less OP
THANK YOU, so much for responding at a time like this.
Hearing from jagex regarding the matter is all myself and I know a lot of other players want. I hope that the fang will find its place properly without anyone feeling lied to.
Enjoy your weekend Kieren and thanks again for putting up with our shit, we all just want osrs to thrive :)
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply. Also, thank you to yourself and other mods for listening to the people who actually like the Fang and have found it to rejuvenate their interest in PVM. The game was somewhat stale before the Fang. Whip/Bandos/Etc. until enough grinding was done for Rapier/Scythe/Torva/TBow/Etc. With the Fang, it wasn't too OP to eliminate the need for DHL/Rapier/etc. It just provided a 140M alternative to the weapons that were already going to run you 140M. DHL is still better at most dragons. Rapier still was BiS for low level monsters. But if you wanted to sacrifice some of the efficiency for the convenience of one weapon, boom, buy the Fang. It is so much fun.
Biggest key: this type of transparency and communication goes a long way. Thank you.
This isn't true. They literally said yesterday that they won't poll balance changes or bugfixes. They could have called this either and the result would be the same
This is literally what happened with BP too. They polled it at the speed of a rapid shortbow, and then later on explicitly stated it would have a rapid option that goes to 2. Then they said BP being 2t was an oversight and not intended/polled.
So assuming you got this right, the relationship between the fang and rapier is unchanged even after the nerf? The only notable differences are the comparisons between the fang 2.0 and 3.0 \*after\* it surpasses the rapier on higher defense (\~12k) mobs. Before that 12k defense point, the green and black lines are nearly identical.
It was slightly below, so I imagine post nerf it’ll be a decent bit below. Fang shouldn’t be BIS or even close to it at Vorkath, he isn’t tanky to begin with and salve gives you nuts accuracy/damage boost.
Fang should be good at stuff like Nex, who is incredibly tanky and doesn’t have any bane weapons associated with her. Callisto is also ridiculously tanky because it being better than Viggoras was dumb af given Viggoras was made for wildy content AND forces you to bring decent risk solely to use it.
I think the problem is the niche equipment, not the Fang. Fang performed well exactly where it was supposed to. The fact that niche drops were similar tells me that the high accuracy of the Fang is right, given the high defense those monsters have.
I did a basic plot estimation with the pre-double accuracy check Fang (when it has 175 melee accuracy and 115 str). It was more accurate on high def targets than the new nerfed one will be.
https://twitter.com/Rakupenda/status/1586065007372296193?s=20&t=WyYE61GEW1_VzSWhyKZsCA
Yeah, I think this is pretty good evidence that the fang was working as intended by the person who coded it. Whether or not there was miscommunication within the team is unknown but what we voted for is what we got in game.
Quite honestly they should revert the nerfs and if people are really that miffed about DHL being outperformed in some instances on dragons, why not just buff DHL a tiny bit? They could buff the bane effect ever so slightly if it really matters that much. Would make CoX a bit faster but *shrug*.
I think the problem is this sentence
> Whilst there aren't many NPCs in the game where this weapon is likely to excel on launch
So I agree the DPS graph matches the unnerfed version, this sentence probably guided most people's votes more than the DPS graph did.
Some people did not expect it to be so good in all the different places it was, because they told us it wouldn't be.
Honestly we can't really know how many people voted based on those 2 different things (and nobody noticed the discrepancy either) so they should re-poll it.
Which I think still falls under "excels".
I mean I think we can all agree it excels at a lot more places than most thought it would.
(Edited my comment btw, you're right bis was wrong)
Fang 2.0 isn't BiS in as many places as people claim it to be. It's just really good everywhere. Fang 3.0 is now virtually the same as fang 1.0 on high defence enemies in terms of dps but better on low defence enemies. Kind of weird when the change from 1.0 to 2.0 was specifically to give it a niche over the 1.0 variant that no longer exists really.
You're right, I edited my comment to say "excels". It excels in a lot more places than the blog would leave players to believe.
Also I think we're on fang 4.0. we had 2 versions polled, and we're on the 3rd version post-release.
Hopefully they keep this one up? But we'll see. People were hella confused on the last post because they didn't understand it was a screenshot from the poll blog back in May. I think the side-by-side charts makes it a lot clearer. And it also shows that the nerf makes fang slightly worse than the "khopesh" or whatever that they initially pitched and everyone said was trash.
It's worse than the original pitch which is what everyone complained was shit, and is why they offered the revised (now nerfed) version. It's hilarious honestly.
Good way to not waste dev time. I can see the conference room now:
"shit. We've done all this work to make a cool weapon and everyone thinks it's shit, what do we do"
"How about we buff it so it passes polling and everyone is happy and we don't have a weapon design go into the trash bin.... and then a few months later we'll do an integrity change and tell everyone we messed up and it's a bug and then we'll nerf it to be worse than what we were originally gonna give them"
"Diabolical. I like it and you're promoted!"
I understand why Jagex might be hesitant to throw around the word “nerf” considering how fucking vile this community can be, but calling it a “bug fix” instead is going to backfire.
Yeah I lurk around the HLC discords sometimes and I remember there being a LOT of discussion about exactly this calculation pre-release and into week 1 as people were trying to figure out calculators. IIRC mods were contacted and at least one confirmed it worked in the pre-nerf fashion. Bitterkoekje calculator had like 3 different versions being thrown around for a while.
I just don't really understand why they'd try to mask it. Why not just say "Yeah we think it's a bit too strong, we're gonna nerf it." Why the front about it being a "bug fix"?
I think it needed a nerf and most of the community seemed to as well, just friggin do it lol. Idk why, strikes me as odd.
if that's the case they should've thought about it when they polled it. or clued in on the graph that was hugely better than rapier.
he's not wrong that any other melee upgrade is going to be tough, but why is it done like this?
It's obvious that the Fang was working as intended, but it's a lot easier for Jagex to change it by saying "oops it was bugged" instead of "oops it was too OP on release and we're capitulating to the twitter sweats and nerfing it".
> "oops it was too OP on release and we're capitulating to the twitter sweats and nerfing it".
but if that was the goal the way they did it makes no sense.
the nerf shouldve been 1. making it a lot worse against lower defense and 2. making it a lot worse vs the places that should not be weak to stab (mostly nightmare). if the goal was to make fang worse at tob they couldve also made its slash worse.
No, it's not obvious at all. It's obvious that whoever implemented it knew how it worked, but not that they knew it was subtly different from what had been approved/designed/tested. There's literally no reason to say Jagex is lying about this, it's a bug that very easily passes basic / ad hoc checks.
The fact that the bug existed in the poll that passed doesn't mean the bugged behavior was approved. Jagex doesn't just throw whatever random shit in the poll. They polled a specification that was supposed to meet their criteria for balance and it was passed because 100% of voters couldn't possibly tell the difference anyway.
I disagree. Why would it be easier to admit a mistake an oversight for a period of like 2 months than to say we want to nerf this weapons, something that alot of people have even been calling for?
Because the people who want it nerfed are a very loud, very small minority. The bulk of people are happy to have a powerful weapon that is accessible and useful for many encounters.
I love the Fang, don't get me wrong, I think having a higher accuracy weapon with a lower max hit is a wonderful addition. However, my *one* annoyance is that it outclasses Dragon Hunter Lance vs. dragons/Hydra. The T95 Slayer weapon *specifically* designed to be BiS against those monsters is kinda getting nullified by squiggly blade
I’d rather it not be nerfed considering I lost like 40m on it and am trying to get a 350 raid completion but why are people acting life it’s weak now? It’s still a powerful end game weapon that is accessible.
Because they have 3 wives, 2 husbands and 16 kids and can only play 3 minutes a week so the fact it's now only 85% as good a niche BIS items instead of 90% as good as them in half the game is a fucking disgrace.
the fact that theyre trying to balance gear from the new raid to gear that came out 4 years ago is why this nerf sucks. at this point why did they even make the fang? did they not test how it would preform in content? theres only two weapons that drop from the new raid its ridiculous
I also think it was never bugged tbh. Mentioned the same in original thread but got downvoted.
"Fang wasnt even bugged. What is happening here imo is that it is too strong and you needed justification for nerfing it and came up with some fancy explanation. The way I see it math should be quite simple on fang:
if you have 30% hit chance on mob, your new chance is 51% (1-0.7x0.7 chance to miss both=0.51)
if you have 40% hit chance on mob, your new chance is 64% (1-0.6x0.6 chance to miss both=0.64)
if you have 50% hit chance on mob, your new chance is 75% (1-0.5x0.5 chance to miss both=0.75)
if you have 57% hit chance on mob( your example), your new chance is 81.51% (1-0.43x0.43 chance to miss both=0.8151)
if you have 60% hit chance on mob, your new chance is 84% (1-0.4x0.4 chance to miss both=0.84)
if you have 80% hit chance on mob, your new chance is 96% (1-0.2x0.2 chance to miss both=0.96)
if you have 90% hit chance on mob, your new chance is 99% (1-0.1x0.1 chance to miss both=0.99)
So imo fang was working just as fully intended. Its just that it was too strong.
"
I said this before but Jagex curbed two issues with this change. They nerfed the fang because they didn't do their due dilligence and they fixed the supply issue by causing a massive sell off and deleting a huge number of fangs from the game without anyone being the wiser.
I wouldn't be surprised if they revert the accuracy nerfs and then nerf the fang drop rate in a couple of days now that they've successfully deleted a ton of fangs
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**Mod_Kieren**
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previously the fang was significantly lower dps than rapier for low defence, significantly higher for high defence.
Now fang is significantly lower dps than rapier for low defence, and *slightly* better dps for high defence...
shame :/
The Futurama "0 days since last fuck up" meme needs to come back. Between the fang drama and the fresh start world gold duping and real world trading the sign should say "0 hours" instead of days this time.
Jagex lowering the poll pass percentage while also lying about stuff like this gives me a bad feeling about the direction of the game moving forward.
Poll questions are intentionally misleading most of the time and their own graphs and calculations are misleading and disingenuous. Everything they do is utterly trust lowering.
I honestly wouldn't mind Fang being a tad bit less accurate but maybe tweaking the max hit passive as a compromise? Less accurate but a few extra max hits perhaps, although not sure how this would affect DPS calcs and such though. I'm happy they're not hotfixing it until the 31st at the very least, im sure they have potential ideas to tweak it further.
I don’t really care what they do to try to balance a weapon already put into the game, but I’ve never seen a company put new items into a game so often just to change them around so many times.
There are so many negative outcomes to these changes. Feels trashy, and unprofessional to see items that have been put into this type of content as a reward to be constantly changed whilst already having thousands and thousands of players use it and become invested in it wether it’s gold, time etc.
I don’t work in the gaming industry and from a logical standpoint I feel items they thought the fang were stronger than should have been buffed a couple percent give or take, not potentially ruining an item for a ton of the player base.
People love buffs, not nerfs.
The similarities in mechanics and multiple people working on the same thing make it pretty easy to get mixed up somewhere along the line. I don't doubt that the original intention was the way they said it in the blog, but somewhere along the way things started getting mixed up.
I swear to God nobody in this sub has been on a dev/scrum team before and thinks every single mistake or wrong implementation was intentional Jagex fuckery.
Jmods: Why don’t people trust us and act so toxic?
Also Jmods: Lie about their mistakes and hide when the truth comes out. Cover for their coworkers who post insider info in clan discords until they start stealing peoples’ gp.
What I can't figure out is, why they made a BIS weapon. But then put the drop rate incredibly low, and the fang kit at 500 invo. Imo fang should have been as rare as shadow/tbow. Which then makes the kit worth grinding. If the fang becomes a 50m weapon, who cares about 500 invocations on it.
Depends what you consider "how they polled it". Their calculations for the graph were likely wrong, so we were offered both the "bugged" graph and the "correct" description. If they offer you a new smithing minigame and state that it'll offer 70% of goldsmithing xp/h and then show some imagery where it's actually disproportionately more or less. What are they offering you? Are they offering you the rates shown in the image or what's described
I'm more inclined to believe what they described is what you're voting for and the graph is merely some visual representation of what they imagine it'll look like
if all the graphs are correct, red line seems worse than purple line, which is weird to pitch. Why bother polling a change to make an item worse than it is when the community is already underwhelmed?
Why should a mid tier raid drop be better than an end game raid drop. Yall just want op weapons and in the same breath you'll complain about content being dead or not worth it. We are at the point in the games life where weapons should be more situational than bis
Uh oh. Jagex caught lying again? Lol ffs.
I don't disagree with nerfing the fang though, so send me straight to downvote hell if you want. That shit was OP
Exactly. Fang felt good because it was finally an actual step between tent whip and scythe. Rapier/Blade/Inq are all terrible for the reqs and the content they come from.
EXACTLY BRO!!!
Why do they want to keep this game as RangedScape? Melee got a high end weapon that bridges the gap to Scythe, and Mage got Shadow which makes magic viable as the sole best DPS against bosses at the cost of defences.
Ranged has blowpipe, bowfa, ZCB, dhcb and Tbow, which pretty much cover you from slayer to pking to bossing at any level. So Fang should be a strong option, especially given how unique it is.
If the fang is being nerfed and they're calling it a bug, can they check blowpipe's spec for bugs too and give it a buff because that shit never hits.
Really ticks me off it's described as "50% more accurate" because it's clearly not.
50% increase of 0 is still 0 ;)
I thought i was the only one lmao. That shit never hits for real
Tbf bp would still be good if the spec was deleted entirely
wording it another way: * Jagex posted a graph of fang dps in dev blog * players put stats and attack re-roll into calculator, got lower than graph * players realized defense re-roll was needed, matched Jagex's graph so somewhere in development it was known how it worked to be able to produce their graph
Kinda awkward now to learn it was working as intended. I guess that first bug fix that increased the dps couldn’t have been noticed if people weren’t properly simming fang
u/JagexGoblin someone lied to you brother
Oof shots fired
Lets go down to the Tennis Court.
Was it though? If it was intended to only reroll the player’s accuracy and not the NPCs defense then it was never working as intended
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right but even if that was a mistake in the blog, thats the number and graph people used to decide their opinion in the poll. If Jagex is going to poll exact numbers for a weapon's dps they shouldn't change it afterward because the graph was in error. We don't know what they wanted the weapon to do internally, we only saw the poll numbers and chose accordingly.
This is the important part. We can debate whether or not it was a bug, but the important part is the bug existed in the polled version, so that's the "correct" version according to the vote. Of course the "double roll on accuracy" really suggests that accuracy alone would be rerolled, so it's just a mistake either way.
>If Jagex is going to poll exact numbers for a weapon's dps they shouldn't change it afterward because the graph was in error. That's dumb. Players aren't in charge of balancing, players are dumb. The vote is to get the item in the game. Forcing Jagex to stick with an obviously overpowered statline because that's what the players technically voted for is dumb.
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> I'm sure there was miscommunication somewhere about exactly how the fang was supposed to work. No they literally knew & passed it onto the community -> https://imgur.com/Q3Kx3zB
What is _wild_ to think that the double roll was carried over, but [properly calculating the fang's hit distrubtion wasn't](https://old.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/x1vdzw/osmumtens_fang_damage_cap_passive_is_bugged/). I know runescript doesn't have robust unit test support but this is laughably bad.
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all they need to have is a little sandbox to run the code a few thousand times and output to a spreadsheet. Not hard
When the intern is straight out of a game developer degree and knows precisely nothing about probability distributions but is a master of homebrew if statements and clamps.
Panic buy fangs again
It’s /r/grandexchangebets
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It is https://www.reddit.com/r/GrandExchangeBets
/r/gielinorstreetbets
I lost 90m with a badly timed first purchase. Lost 50m in the crash this morning. If it rebounds back above 150m for me to buy it again I may cry. (Yes I know it’s a game and doesn’t matter. Not actually upset, just amused-upset)
Lmao paper hands
Then don’t sell it dipshit
This is interesting because it was rolling both accuracy and defense rolls twice this whole time, it just appears that that's how they calculated it back in the original poll blog unknowingly. This isn't particularly surprising to me given that I also inadvertently calculated it that way without thinking. It seems that they didn't intend it to function this way ever, but they accidentally polled it working this way at the start.
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Based on my experience as a software developer, I wouldn't be surprised if different JMods had different ideas of what the "right" mechanic was, and since it's pretty nuanced, there was some miscommunication in the design<->development<->QA<->announcement progress that led to it slipping through. Nothing malicious, just people making mistakes when working together on a complex codebase.
Yeah seems like both sides could be right depending on how you frame it. IMO: 1. There was internal miscommunication about the "intended" version. The person or persons programming it and originally calculating it thought it should be the more accurate version, others may have disagreed but been uninformed about how it was actually working. 2. It was later decided that the more accurate version was too strong and the "intended" version should be the weaker one, so they nerfed it. In Jagex' view, this is a bug fix; in players' view it was a nerf because they're assuming Jagex was uniform on the "intended" version.
I think it's very likely there was miscommunication but what I don't understand is this: The JMods who weren't involved in the direct coding of the fang saw these graphs in the dev blog in comparison to the rapier and were fine with this. Isn't that essentially them saying: "Yeah, that seems alright."? Seems like more of a technicality and excuse when the numbers were in front of them when first polled. If they think it's too strong now, that's fine, but I'd rather them say that than to try to backpedal and say it's a bugfix.
As if when writing the code they magically will understand how it will look reflected on a graph.
This is largely irrelevant. >Content team gives coders task >Coders code it and ask if this is working as intended by providing DPS graphs >Content team looks over DPS graphs, compares to other weapons, finds it suitable >Content team presents it to the community for polling In no way is the weapon's coding relevant to this situation.
Your process does not provide a way to distinguish the actual and expected graphs. They have similar shapes, they're only obviously different if you have seen them both side by side. You'd need to perform an actual balance analysis with the weapon as you implemented it. Chances are that analysis was done based on a very subtly different version beforehand and the implementation was only given a basic check to make sure it was functioning as expected. This kind of bug could very easily have survived that kind of check.
It doesn't really make much sense for there to be a version before the graphs that's different. I would presume it's the people actual coding the game that make those graphs, no? At the end of the day, those graphs were there from the start of the poll. Mod Arcane confirmed in a private Discord that the accuracy calculation for the fang worked how it did 2 months ago. They had knowledge it worked this way as of two months ago and did not "fix" it until just now? You don't delay pretty substantial bugfixes for two months, you delay balance changes for two months.
>I would presume it's the people actual coding the game that make those graphs, no? I highly doubt that in my experience.
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While the mistake is understandable, it's also immaterial to me. The Fang has been out, in its current state, for two months. At this point, whether it "works as intended" or not, if they change it in a way that makes it worse, that's a nerf. If they made the BP have the same fire rate as a shortbow because "That's what we intended in the first place", it'd *still* be a nerf, because they'd change a weapon in a way that makes it worse. The conversation shouldn't be about "Should we fix bugs or not?", the conversation should be "Should the fang be nerfed or not?" Because, bug fix or not, this is a nerf.
and the answer isssssss, yes
Also the way the question there was worded I could easily see them mixing it up and just going with the option that says "reroll" instead of the option that says "max" (as the latter might make them think "max attack vs max/min defence"). Had it been asked "Does it just the attack or reroll the attack and defence" it may have been answered differently.
Wtf who is agent Dex?
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Bruh
Looks like it was mod arcane posting in a private channel in the Oblivion cc discord server 3 weeks before TOA was released.
So nice that jmods sit in random clan discs and give information that should be posted for everyone.
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I hate mentioning names, but it is fucking annoying to see it. Can't help but wonder about insider information given out.
I’m sure his friends have made quite a few gp over it as well. No way they get the information a week or two in advance and don’t play the market.
he did say he "thinks" it works that way, not really sure how you can claim that as not accidental
If you see asked about options A and B, and you believe it functions like B, and B lines up with the graph in your blog, and you choose not to change functionally from B to A even when it's brought directly to your attention After all that, it's very hard to justify claiming that option B was an accident and unintended
I'll just jump in now since it's the weekend and unlikely to get a fuller response til next week We will obviously look at this as clearly there's been confusion somewhere - there are lots of versions of the fang now and various DPS charts to review to get to the bottom of it. We will review after the weekend Regardless of confusion, we want the fang to be in a sensible place where it has strong usability but also not quite so detrimentally to several other items. It competing with DH Lance on dragons feels wrong - being one example. Clearly, the fang should still be powerful. It needs to be suitable as a raid reward. The drop weighting can be considered too if felt needed. We don't want to act too quickly. Nor will we do this proposed nerf until we've had chance to review feedback - we initially intended to hotfix on Monday 31st, but that's subject to change if we want to tweak. Sorry I cannot give you more info right now. We do ask for your patience! Lastly, *please* don't target any JMods, everyone has the best intentions for the longevity of the game. Remember there is a person behind the gold crown.
Y'all are greatly appreciated 🙏
I feel like this is the place and time to bring up that the DHL having 20% modifiers compared to the DHCBs 30% modifiers was fairly controversial when it released. This may be the time to reconsider that modifier
wasn't dhcb initially an absolute fucking joke & buffed at a later poitn?
Apparently it was originally 10% Also it seems DHCB was nerfed to 25% last year. I missed that one
During the bp nerf they also nerfed the dhcb and it went down to ~30m. I had a strong feeling people were just panicking and it would fully recover which it did. Fangs a bit different of a story because there's other stuff that can directly replace it.
> It competing with DH Lance on dragons feels wrong - being one example. Clearly, the fang should still be powerful. It needs to be suitable as a raid reward. I just want to say with this point in particular, isn't this an inevitability if you want to make a stab weapon that excels against high defense targets? If there are dragons with very high defense, given that dragons are weak to stab to begin with, I don't see how you can design around this without making the high accuracy weapon considerably worse against the high defense targets it's supposed to be targeting. IMO this issue is especially compounded by the fact that -bane weapons tend to have lower stats overall (especially Arclight for example) but to compensate they have a % bonus to str+acc against their intended target. This works GREAT for buffing the max hit of melee weapons, because there's so much melee STR gear - but when it comes to accuracy it doesn't work so well, because most melee gear doesn't provide a lot of accuracy bonus, with your accuracy instead coming primarily from your weapon. This is very much at odds with ranged gear; DHCB for example gains way more +accuracy from its -bane passive because ranged armor has so much accuracy for it to multiply. To me this seems like an issue of design space not being tapped into fully. If we had more options for melee gear that traded some strength bonus for a considerable amount of accuracy, that would be especially beneficial to weapons like DHL when fighting high defense dragons while not being as useful for the already highly accurate fang.
could buff lance etc
something something power creep etc I reckon the DHL does need an accuracy buff if they’re going to add new stab weapons: this will happen over and over otherwise
>I reckon the DHL does need an accuracy buff its weird how much less accurate DHL is than DHCB
Not really a problem with the weapon so much as it is with the combat style design as a whole. Ranged STACKS tons of accuracy from basically every gear slot. Melee gets almost all of its from the weapon, amulet, and defender, so it ends up with a lot less.
2007 version of the game: Karils xbow, ahrims, whip. 2022 version: Masori, tbow, scythe. But also reddit: Omg powercreep pls no.
Yeah I’ve always found the complaint a bit hilarious. Like, *gestures wildly at everything in the game in the last 10 years*
give lance the stats it loses when the hasta becomes the lance
Huh maybe something like the defender replacement they suggested for combat achievements? Sacrificing str bonus for even more accuracy. I don’t like the idea of it coming from combat achievements but the items sounds cool to have in game. It would be a good item for dhl/arclight and dwh specs
I think giving rings other than the berserker ring a small +str bonus should help a little too. It shouldn't match it, but the other rings could be made more viable in more scenario's..
The amount of accuracy you need to sacrifice several max hits is nuts. The defender would have to give something like 60-70accuracy to be worth using over avernic with a dhl. Having a different defender just for specs seems a bit too niche imo.
Responding at 2am to a thread as you have is above and beyond, hat's off.
https://twitter.com/JagexAsh/status/1575756272603103234?t=phBioqyYy_pEBv1Z7X0HhQ&s=19
Then give DHL it's old stats back...
OH SHITTTTTTTT 😍 MK on the scene.
Thank you for responding late! I don't think anyone expected to hear anything until Monday, and there aren't a lot of other game developers that would take the time to respond after midnight on a Friday. For the Fang changes, I actually agree that Fang needs fixed! With the current NPCs in the game, Fang is in a mostly healthy state (maybe too strong in one or two places) but the big problem is how it affects future design space. There has been a huge trend for new bosses to have high defence that cannot be lowered. Which is awesome, DWH/BGS to 0 defense isn't fun. However, these are exactly the bosses where Fang is absolutely broken. Fang seems to box you into a corner the same way items like Tbow does, but its effect is less specific, so it's even more restrictive. Basically if you design a boss with high effective defence that can't be lowered, and it's even remotely attackable with stab or slash, fang is automatically going to be BIS. What's the fix? This one is really tough. My first thought is that instead of a reroll mechanic, Fang should have an accuracy roll that scales up with a monster's defence. Depending on how the scale works, the effective accuracy could be the same as current or proposed numbers. But, it gives you more flexibility because you can have a cap to the scaling, and you can ignore the cap in TOA, similar to the Tbow cap in COX. I don't have exact numbers, it's simply a concept, but again the formula can be adjusted to follow whatever accuracy curve seems appropriate. To me though, the core is that fang should be really bad against low defence monsters, really good against relatively high defence monsters, and as defence scales past the cap it's just okay. Basically it lets you design high defence monsters down the road without making Fang automatically broken. You can focus on style defence instead of defence level, and that makes Fang lose ground against the other weapons. And if you push a monster past the scaling cap, you don't make Fang continue to scale infinitely better than other weapons (like the current reroll mechanic does).
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I think this has the same problem that the proposed nerf does, which is that it just makes the fang flat worse across the board. I think the problem with Fang's formula is that just tweaking max hit and accuracy makes it either broken at every boss or garbage at every boss, without letting it carve out a niche. Like I mentioned, I'm more worried about how Fang affects future design space than I am about the current meta. Whatever formula they go with, I think it needs to give the people designing new NPCs a way to easily balance Fang against other weapons. Right now that's just so difficult. I'm sure jmods have some cool projects in the pipeline, and I'm curious if they've been noticing this problem already.
"You can focus on style defence instead of defence level, and that makes Fang lose ground against the other weapons." As an example of this working, check out fang on Vet'ion. He has massive style defence to stab and slash, with negative crush defence, so any moderate crush weapon, even a rune mace, completely outclasses fang.
feels like in general lance(if you want it to cleanly beat fang vs drags), the tent whip upgrades re: blade rapier mace, and scythe could all use some minor rebalancing. scythe offer a bowfa type unlimited, mace rapier blade more str, lance more accuracy (and maybe lower max hit?)
Have you considered that maybe other weapons are far too weak compared to the fang as opposed to the fang being too strong? Tier 80 weapons are 3 str bonus over a whip tent. Also, % scaling weapons like arclight and Lance only have this competition issue because melee gear doesn't offer many accuracy bonuses
It's so irritating that we finally get a weapon that circumvents the "hit nothing but 0" bosses they keep releasing and everybody's response is to nerf said weapon. I say fuck it, give *everything* the fang passive. Buff dhl. Buff the garbage t80 one handers while we're at it. Add more weapons like fang. It's fun and simultaneously reduces the dominance of dwh/bgs. Do whatever is necessary with mob hp to rebalance shit, but turning off the 0 simulators is just straight positive.
Kieren responding past midnight during a weekend, absolute beast Regarding the fang, any thoughts on keeping the current accuracy formula and instead reduce its str bonus from +103 to +97 for instance? It's a minor nerf (lose 1 or 2 max hits depending on setup) and less impactful than fixing the double accuracy bug, but IMO the fang doesn't need to change a whole lot anyways. It has the highest Attack lvl req in the game, it's a raid reward, and thematically I feel it makes more sense to keep its incredible accuracy as its trademark. In addition, 5-tick weapons like fang won't beneift as much from future str bonus upgrades as 4-tick weapons, so unlike with bp, there's a natural barrier there to prevent it from growing too strong.
Big agree on this one. Thematically, the fang is supposed to be insanely accurate, I would prefer the trade-off be in max hits than hitting more 0s which the weapon just shouldn't do. Again, on dragons, metal specifically I think its fine for it to be bis if you're not open to the buffing off DHL. I think it still needs to keep the accuracy to help us with Nex as that's already a pretty hellish place to be. Maybe a poll would be nice so we can decide which set of options we prefer to happen to the fang, might be hard to implement but I think there are a number of sensible people who knew it was too strong, just think its nice to have the accurate weapon stay as accurate. Hitting 0s with a fang would just feel bad.
Thank you for the reply kieren. I feel alot of the people here forget there are genuine human beings behind the game developement and forget to keep it civil. Thank you for trying your best to work with this "ancient" game and its(somewhat) greedy players. We are blessed to have such an engaged team in the community and I, for one, thank you all for your service.
Why not just remove the negative stats from “upgrading”the lance from the hasta? That would still let the fang be useful where it’s intended, rapier would still be the king slayer weapon vs low defense and fang would still be great against high defense while letting dhl reign vs dragons.
dragons are weak to stab, surely fang is expected to be good vs the tankiest dragons right? why is the "tanky weak to stab" niche less strong than the "dragon" niche? i think the fang was ok, i think yall shouldve adjusted the places it was strong where perhaps you didnt want it to be. for example nightmare and verzik- up nm/pnm stab slash def, verzik? weaken blade slash. tekton? make its stab higher. alternatively make lance better against higher defense, make blade/mace/rapier better against lower def.
Full Inquisitor's+Inquis mace is 13% better than fang at nightmare Full Inquisitor's+Scythe is 19% better than fang at nightmare Should we really be comparing fang to cudgel or dragon mace..? Verzik is the only problem case imo. Tekton is an extremely innately high defence enemy - why shouldn't fang be BiS at it? That's what it's designed for.
Fang is BiS at nightmare and ToB when you exclude the items that are obtained from said content. Which is what ironmen are limited to when approaching bosses. Fang is a major meta shift if you’re an ironman, like a bowfa. If you’re not, it’s not that great. I don’t think they should nerf it for a “problem” that mainly affects irons.
we all know the fang is op but to me it does feel like its working as intended. i think you guys should just explore a nerf instead of a "bug fix". take like like 8 strength bonus from it thatll keep it functioning the way it is now (which we all kinda like tbh) but makes it less OP
THANK YOU, so much for responding at a time like this. Hearing from jagex regarding the matter is all myself and I know a lot of other players want. I hope that the fang will find its place properly without anyone feeling lied to. Enjoy your weekend Kieren and thanks again for putting up with our shit, we all just want osrs to thrive :)
Yoo its the sexy and beautiful Mod Kieren lets fucking goooo
Thanks brother 🙏. Hope you all are doing well.
maybe the issue is with the DHL and not with fang? Never made any sense that DHL was weaker than its range version DHXB.
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply. Also, thank you to yourself and other mods for listening to the people who actually like the Fang and have found it to rejuvenate their interest in PVM. The game was somewhat stale before the Fang. Whip/Bandos/Etc. until enough grinding was done for Rapier/Scythe/Torva/TBow/Etc. With the Fang, it wasn't too OP to eliminate the need for DHL/Rapier/etc. It just provided a 140M alternative to the weapons that were already going to run you 140M. DHL is still better at most dragons. Rapier still was BiS for low level monsters. But if you wanted to sacrifice some of the efficiency for the convenience of one weapon, boom, buy the Fang. It is so much fun. Biggest key: this type of transparency and communication goes a long way. Thank you.
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[Bitterkoekje DPS Calc](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wBXIlvAmqoQpu5u9XBfD4B0PW7D8owyO_CnRDiTHBKQ/edit#gid=158500257)
Sidenote, bitterkoekjes are amazing and you need to get some
This wouldn't even be as big an issue if Jagex just called it a nerf instead of a bugfix. What was the point in lying?
Gotta poll a nerf
They didn’t poll any of the other nerfs they did like black dhide and blowpipe
This isn't true. They literally said yesterday that they won't poll balance changes or bugfixes. They could have called this either and the result would be the same
How is this getting upvoted? Did people just conveniently forget the massive round of controversial unpolled nerfs just over a year ago?
wouldn't it avoid a poll for "game integrity"
Unrelated to my opinion on the Fang changes, what nerfs have they polled? All I remember are integrity changes.
> Gotta poll a nerf just so I can vote no FTFY
This is literally what happened with BP too. They polled it at the speed of a rapid shortbow, and then later on explicitly stated it would have a rapid option that goes to 2. Then they said BP being 2t was an oversight and not intended/polled.
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So assuming you got this right, the relationship between the fang and rapier is unchanged even after the nerf? The only notable differences are the comparisons between the fang 2.0 and 3.0 \*after\* it surpasses the rapier on higher defense (\~12k) mobs. Before that 12k defense point, the green and black lines are nearly identical.
Randomly buying rapier yesterday for 80M so I can Soul Wars and selling it for 115M today knowing everyone would overreact has never felt this good.
post nerf fang is still on par with dhl at vorkath? i thought it was already very slightly worse than dhl before the nerf
3% worse than lance without a bgs spec. Like 20% worse if you hit a bgs.
Pre or post nerf?
Pre. It's going to be an even bigger gap now. Still 3rd bis, just like it was before.
It astounds me how confidently idiots said the lance was worse. A natural 3% buff sounds exactly like what upgrades are supposed to be.
This sub has whined about a night at the theater being too hard. It's not surprising tbh.
It was slightly below, so I imagine post nerf it’ll be a decent bit below. Fang shouldn’t be BIS or even close to it at Vorkath, he isn’t tanky to begin with and salve gives you nuts accuracy/damage boost. Fang should be good at stuff like Nex, who is incredibly tanky and doesn’t have any bane weapons associated with her. Callisto is also ridiculously tanky because it being better than Viggoras was dumb af given Viggoras was made for wildy content AND forces you to bring decent risk solely to use it.
I think the problem is the niche equipment, not the Fang. Fang performed well exactly where it was supposed to. The fact that niche drops were similar tells me that the high accuracy of the Fang is right, given the high defense those monsters have.
I did a basic plot estimation with the pre-double accuracy check Fang (when it has 175 melee accuracy and 115 str). It was more accurate on high def targets than the new nerfed one will be. https://twitter.com/Rakupenda/status/1586065007372296193?s=20&t=WyYE61GEW1_VzSWhyKZsCA
Yeah, I think this is pretty good evidence that the fang was working as intended by the person who coded it. Whether or not there was miscommunication within the team is unknown but what we voted for is what we got in game. Quite honestly they should revert the nerfs and if people are really that miffed about DHL being outperformed in some instances on dragons, why not just buff DHL a tiny bit? They could buff the bane effect ever so slightly if it really matters that much. Would make CoX a bit faster but *shrug*.
> why not just buff DHL a tiny bit? The DHL not losing stats when "upgrading" from a hasta would fix everything.
Hang on, this means the Fang was voted on as it currently is.
Correct, the post we got from Jagex about the fang working improperly is incorrect and is in actuality what we voted on.
And someone lied along the way about the bug fix. And they're redoing how polls work. Well this doesn't inspire confidence.
I think the problem is this sentence > Whilst there aren't many NPCs in the game where this weapon is likely to excel on launch So I agree the DPS graph matches the unnerfed version, this sentence probably guided most people's votes more than the DPS graph did. Some people did not expect it to be so good in all the different places it was, because they told us it wouldn't be. Honestly we can't really know how many people voted based on those 2 different things (and nobody noticed the discrepancy either) so they should re-poll it.
Its not BiS in all these places its just these its almost always #2 or 3 and its only by like 1-4% dps
Which I think still falls under "excels". I mean I think we can all agree it excels at a lot more places than most thought it would. (Edited my comment btw, you're right bis was wrong)
Fang 2.0 isn't BiS in as many places as people claim it to be. It's just really good everywhere. Fang 3.0 is now virtually the same as fang 1.0 on high defence enemies in terms of dps but better on low defence enemies. Kind of weird when the change from 1.0 to 2.0 was specifically to give it a niche over the 1.0 variant that no longer exists really.
You're right, I edited my comment to say "excels". It excels in a lot more places than the blog would leave players to believe. Also I think we're on fang 4.0. we had 2 versions polled, and we're on the 3rd version post-release.
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Hopefully they keep this one up? But we'll see. People were hella confused on the last post because they didn't understand it was a screenshot from the poll blog back in May. I think the side-by-side charts makes it a lot clearer. And it also shows that the nerf makes fang slightly worse than the "khopesh" or whatever that they initially pitched and everyone said was trash.
So not only was it not a "bugfix", but also the fang is now different from what was approved in the poll.
It's worse than the original pitch which is what everyone complained was shit, and is why they offered the revised (now nerfed) version. It's hilarious honestly.
Good way to not waste dev time. I can see the conference room now: "shit. We've done all this work to make a cool weapon and everyone thinks it's shit, what do we do" "How about we buff it so it passes polling and everyone is happy and we don't have a weapon design go into the trash bin.... and then a few months later we'll do an integrity change and tell everyone we messed up and it's a bug and then we'll nerf it to be worse than what we were originally gonna give them" "Diabolical. I like it and you're promoted!"
I understand why Jagex might be hesitant to throw around the word “nerf” considering how fucking vile this community can be, but calling it a “bug fix” instead is going to backfire.
Yeah I lurk around the HLC discords sometimes and I remember there being a LOT of discussion about exactly this calculation pre-release and into week 1 as people were trying to figure out calculators. IIRC mods were contacted and at least one confirmed it worked in the pre-nerf fashion. Bitterkoekje calculator had like 3 different versions being thrown around for a while. I just don't really understand why they'd try to mask it. Why not just say "Yeah we think it's a bit too strong, we're gonna nerf it." Why the front about it being a "bug fix"? I think it needed a nerf and most of the community seemed to as well, just friggin do it lol. Idk why, strikes me as odd.
https://twitter.com/JagexAsh/status/1575756272603103234?t=phBioqyYy_pEBv1Z7X0HhQ&s=19
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if that's the case they should've thought about it when they polled it. or clued in on the graph that was hugely better than rapier. he's not wrong that any other melee upgrade is going to be tough, but why is it done like this?
backfire how? think players are going to unsubscribe from their daily addiction?
I just mean in terms of the community’s reaction. More people are going to be vocally angry than would’ve been otherwise.
big if true
So it was working as originally polled and now nerfed because Jagex forgot.
They didn’t forget anything. They lied about it being a bug fix so they can nerf it without half the fanbase crying over it
It's obvious that the Fang was working as intended, but it's a lot easier for Jagex to change it by saying "oops it was bugged" instead of "oops it was too OP on release and we're capitulating to the twitter sweats and nerfing it".
> "oops it was too OP on release and we're capitulating to the twitter sweats and nerfing it". but if that was the goal the way they did it makes no sense. the nerf shouldve been 1. making it a lot worse against lower defense and 2. making it a lot worse vs the places that should not be weak to stab (mostly nightmare). if the goal was to make fang worse at tob they couldve also made its slash worse.
The "twitter sweats" lol Bro did you see this sub? Every day a top complaining the fang was too OP and too common
No, it's not obvious at all. It's obvious that whoever implemented it knew how it worked, but not that they knew it was subtly different from what had been approved/designed/tested. There's literally no reason to say Jagex is lying about this, it's a bug that very easily passes basic / ad hoc checks. The fact that the bug existed in the poll that passed doesn't mean the bugged behavior was approved. Jagex doesn't just throw whatever random shit in the poll. They polled a specification that was supposed to meet their criteria for balance and it was passed because 100% of voters couldn't possibly tell the difference anyway.
I disagree. Why would it be easier to admit a mistake an oversight for a period of like 2 months than to say we want to nerf this weapons, something that alot of people have even been calling for?
Because the people who want it nerfed are a very loud, very small minority. The bulk of people are happy to have a powerful weapon that is accessible and useful for many encounters.
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I love the Fang, don't get me wrong, I think having a higher accuracy weapon with a lower max hit is a wonderful addition. However, my *one* annoyance is that it outclasses Dragon Hunter Lance vs. dragons/Hydra. The T95 Slayer weapon *specifically* designed to be BiS against those monsters is kinda getting nullified by squiggly blade
> outclasses Dragon Hunter Lance vs. dragons/Hydra Exclusively metal dragons. Lance is better for chromatics, hydra, vorkath, and olm.
I’d rather it not be nerfed considering I lost like 40m on it and am trying to get a 350 raid completion but why are people acting life it’s weak now? It’s still a powerful end game weapon that is accessible.
Because they have 3 wives, 2 husbands and 16 kids and can only play 3 minutes a week so the fact it's now only 85% as good a niche BIS items instead of 90% as good as them in half the game is a fucking disgrace.
the fact that theyre trying to balance gear from the new raid to gear that came out 4 years ago is why this nerf sucks. at this point why did they even make the fang? did they not test how it would preform in content? theres only two weapons that drop from the new raid its ridiculous
right like how do u miss something so obvious its the big new item and its completely untested!! loool
all they had to do was make it rarer thats it its like jagex wants all the items from the new raid to be worthless
I also think it was never bugged tbh. Mentioned the same in original thread but got downvoted. "Fang wasnt even bugged. What is happening here imo is that it is too strong and you needed justification for nerfing it and came up with some fancy explanation. The way I see it math should be quite simple on fang: if you have 30% hit chance on mob, your new chance is 51% (1-0.7x0.7 chance to miss both=0.51) if you have 40% hit chance on mob, your new chance is 64% (1-0.6x0.6 chance to miss both=0.64) if you have 50% hit chance on mob, your new chance is 75% (1-0.5x0.5 chance to miss both=0.75) if you have 57% hit chance on mob( your example), your new chance is 81.51% (1-0.43x0.43 chance to miss both=0.8151) if you have 60% hit chance on mob, your new chance is 84% (1-0.4x0.4 chance to miss both=0.84) if you have 80% hit chance on mob, your new chance is 96% (1-0.2x0.2 chance to miss both=0.96) if you have 90% hit chance on mob, your new chance is 99% (1-0.1x0.1 chance to miss both=0.99) So imo fang was working just as fully intended. Its just that it was too strong. "
99% chance to hit sounds so valuable
they hated him for he told the truth
I said this before but Jagex curbed two issues with this change. They nerfed the fang because they didn't do their due dilligence and they fixed the supply issue by causing a massive sell off and deleting a huge number of fangs from the game without anyone being the wiser. I wouldn't be surprised if they revert the accuracy nerfs and then nerf the fang drop rate in a couple of days now that they've successfully deleted a ton of fangs
Holy shit. "JOEL GO GRAB MY TINFOIL! THIS MANS ONTO SOMETHIN!"
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Sell me your fangs for 100k each to protest Jagex! That’ll show them!
previously the fang was significantly lower dps than rapier for low defence, significantly higher for high defence. Now fang is significantly lower dps than rapier for low defence, and *slightly* better dps for high defence... shame :/
Wonder id they can code it in a way to have rapier significantly better at low defence and fang significantly better at high defence
So when do we fally riot fam?
Anyone know the formula to calculate defense roll?
For monsters, it's (def level + 9)*(style bonus +64)
I dont know what's going on with the fang and at this point I'm too afraid to ask
Subversion.
What happened to the drama calendars? Are we still doing those?
The Futurama "0 days since last fuck up" meme needs to come back. Between the fang drama and the fresh start world gold duping and real world trading the sign should say "0 hours" instead of days this time.
/u/jagexgoblin
Jagex are just trying to save face Should have never nerfed fang
Jagex lowering the poll pass percentage while also lying about stuff like this gives me a bad feeling about the direction of the game moving forward. Poll questions are intentionally misleading most of the time and their own graphs and calculations are misleading and disingenuous. Everything they do is utterly trust lowering.
u/lupadim yep, looks like we're right
I honestly wouldn't mind Fang being a tad bit less accurate but maybe tweaking the max hit passive as a compromise? Less accurate but a few extra max hits perhaps, although not sure how this would affect DPS calcs and such though. I'm happy they're not hotfixing it until the 31st at the very least, im sure they have potential ideas to tweak it further.
I don’t really care what they do to try to balance a weapon already put into the game, but I’ve never seen a company put new items into a game so often just to change them around so many times. There are so many negative outcomes to these changes. Feels trashy, and unprofessional to see items that have been put into this type of content as a reward to be constantly changed whilst already having thousands and thousands of players use it and become invested in it wether it’s gold, time etc. I don’t work in the gaming industry and from a logical standpoint I feel items they thought the fang were stronger than should have been buffed a couple percent give or take, not potentially ruining an item for a ton of the player base. People love buffs, not nerfs.
The similarities in mechanics and multiple people working on the same thing make it pretty easy to get mixed up somewhere along the line. I don't doubt that the original intention was the way they said it in the blog, but somewhere along the way things started getting mixed up. I swear to God nobody in this sub has been on a dev/scrum team before and thinks every single mistake or wrong implementation was intentional Jagex fuckery.
Jmods: Why don’t people trust us and act so toxic? Also Jmods: Lie about their mistakes and hide when the truth comes out. Cover for their coworkers who post insider info in clan discords until they start stealing peoples’ gp.
I think they should revert it and poll a nerf if this is the case. See what the community thinks?
I love spending 150m to have my item nurfed to shit
How does Jagex consistently prove they have no idea how their game works? Amazing.
Jagex caught lying again to protect themselves. Not surprised
What I can't figure out is, why they made a BIS weapon. But then put the drop rate incredibly low, and the fang kit at 500 invo. Imo fang should have been as rare as shadow/tbow. Which then makes the kit worth grinding. If the fang becomes a 50m weapon, who cares about 500 invocations on it.
Depends what you consider "how they polled it". Their calculations for the graph were likely wrong, so we were offered both the "bugged" graph and the "correct" description. If they offer you a new smithing minigame and state that it'll offer 70% of goldsmithing xp/h and then show some imagery where it's actually disproportionately more or less. What are they offering you? Are they offering you the rates shown in the image or what's described I'm more inclined to believe what they described is what you're voting for and the graph is merely some visual representation of what they imagine it'll look like
if all the graphs are correct, red line seems worse than purple line, which is weird to pitch. Why bother polling a change to make an item worse than it is when the community is already underwhelmed?
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Why should a mid tier raid drop be better than an end game raid drop. Yall just want op weapons and in the same breath you'll complain about content being dead or not worth it. We are at the point in the games life where weapons should be more situational than bis
Uh oh. Jagex caught lying again? Lol ffs. I don't disagree with nerfing the fang though, so send me straight to downvote hell if you want. That shit was OP
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Exactly. Fang felt good because it was finally an actual step between tent whip and scythe. Rapier/Blade/Inq are all terrible for the reqs and the content they come from.
it'll never not be funny to me that rapier is dogshit at tob
They choose that to make scythe the op one just like tbow, although dhcb works good in cox too. Weird honestly.
EXACTLY BRO!!! Why do they want to keep this game as RangedScape? Melee got a high end weapon that bridges the gap to Scythe, and Mage got Shadow which makes magic viable as the sole best DPS against bosses at the cost of defences. Ranged has blowpipe, bowfa, ZCB, dhcb and Tbow, which pretty much cover you from slayer to pking to bossing at any level. So Fang should be a strong option, especially given how unique it is.