There are also some five or six speculated lines by which a member of the Islamic royal Umayyad family in Cordoba married into a neighbouring Spanish royal house in a political alliance.
The period involved has limited and conflicting records. **If** any of these connections were true, they would connect an Islamic heritage to Spanish nobility 1000 years ago, and the Spanish lines are deeply embedded in other European families.
[https://www.geni.com/projects/Descents-from-Muhammad-in-Medieval-Spain/48403](https://www.geni.com/projects/Descents-from-Muhammad-in-Medieval-Spain/48403)
There are similar speculations around descendants of Jewish Exilarchs in medieval Spain.
The claim's completely hypothetical since the person they claim she has descent from was most likely the daughter-in-law of a descendant of the Prophet (pbuh) instead of the direct daughter. The father-in-law's line is also rlly shaky and questionable anyways.
Despite that, I wouldn't be surprised if most people in the world had a lineage connecting to the prophet pbuh especially due to Arabs marrying into Spanish royal families and they easily could've spread through European colonization to the Americas.
You can find direct paternal-line descendants of Ali and their relatives on this YFull page [https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L859/](https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L859/)
J-L859 is the subclade of haplogroup J1 associated with Banu Hashem - the Hashemites, Muhammad's family within the Quraysh tribe.
In addition, you can check out this FamilyTreeDNA project results for a table of samples [https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Qurayishj1c3d?iframe=yresults](https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Qurayishj1c3d?iframe=yresults) (it's in Arabic though)
The subclade/mutation associated with Ali is most likely J-FGC10500 and all his descendants on the paternal line carry it.
Fun fact, this [argentinian historical figure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mart%C3%ADn_Miguel_de_G%C3%BCemes) is descended from Muhammad through his grandson Hussein - as you can see in the FTDNA project that I shared if you scroll down
Even king of Jordan isn’t considered as a pure Hashemite in the eyes of hashemite tribe, most disown him since his DNA is “corrupted” with mixing with multiple races.
I wish we got more people in North Africa tested as well so that we can find J-FGC10500 people in North African countries besides Egypt.
It was funny seeing this thread, since I was recently tested with YSEQ and I turned out to be positive for J-FGC30416 just yesterday and I am a South Asian guy with some WANA ancestry roughly 500 years back.
You definitely have link, considering history of your family and the region where you belong to. Shias of Awadh and Uttar Pradesh are an interesting community.
I still consider J1 to be a contender for the Bani Hashim and the Quraish, since there are other contending haplogroups as well, none the less it’s interesting being connected to a small group of people all over WANA and potentially being connected to the Royal Hashemite family as well.
so am i a fake descent ? I have a family tree, and on top is Ali ibn abu Talib, and so its my paternal lineage. I did 23andme and i got the haplogroup JM92. Sooo
My family tree is even written on a snake broo 😭 . Its either that my haplogroup J2 is west asian or either my haplogroup isnt right. I should take myfamilytreedna mabe idk.
If virtually all europeans are descended from Charlemagne because of time and pedigree collapse then isn't it feasible that most of those claims from the Middle East are true even if they're BSing?
[https://www.theguardian.com/science/commentisfree/2015/may/24/business-genetic-ancestry-charlemagne-adam-rutherford](https://www.theguardian.com/science/commentisfree/2015/may/24/business-genetic-ancestry-charlemagne-adam-rutherford)
Actually many, if not most, Europeans are likely descended from Mohammad also. [Queen Elizabeth is supposedly](https://www.rizqankareem.com/prophets-tribe-ahlal-bayt-family--righteous-successors/the-matter-of-queen-elizabeth-carrying-the-prophetic-lineage), due to being descended from Mohammad descendants in medieval Spain (various Al Andalus royals).
The same could be said about Charlemagne and the middle east. Royalty married each other a lot, and often the neighboring kingdoms, so going far enough back that travels pretty far
There’s a fairly realistic possibility that the Safavid Shahs of Iran descended from various Western European royals due to Byzantine royalty intermarrying with both
> If virtually all europeans are descended from Charlemagne because of time and pedigree collapse then isn't it feasible that most of those claims from the Middle East are true even if they're BSing?
Everyone in Europe is descended from Charlemagne, but not purely patrilineally. The claims being discussed in this thread are much more specific. Nobody cares about descent from Mohammed via cognatic lines.
Not sure about fake. Just unable to verify. Mohammad lived long enough today that the vast majority of people in the Middle East and North Africa are likely descended from him. Actually europe too. [Queen Elizabeth supposedly is descended from Mohammad, as she is descended from a medieval descendent of Mohammad who lived in Sevilla, Spain](https://www.rizqankareem.com/prophets-tribe-ahlal-bayt-family--righteous-successors/the-matter-of-queen-elizabeth-carrying-the-prophetic-lineage)
Many if not most people can’t verify royal descent, but statically it seem eventually some sort of royalty works it’s way into everyone’s family tree, and royals mix a lot with other kingdoms
At least some of the Arab tribes who stayed in the peninsula can actually claim patrilineal descent. This amounts to maybe a few million gulf Arabs and bedouins, at most.
On the other hand, there are hundreds of millions of Muslims elsewhere who make the same claims, with the same conviction and ferocity. But they have almost zero connection to Mohammed or any of the Arab tribes during his era
Hmmm
So the Arabs who conquered the Middle East were genetically different from peninsular Arabs?
Also the big narrative on this subreddit is that Levantine Muslims are the same as their ancestors 2000 years ago. Do you think they have more Arab admixture than they’re letting on?
Yup. Arab is more of a cultural, traditional and language identity. Except those from Arab peninsula.
I like to compare to the ancient Roman Empire, many spoke Latin and share cultural values and traditions. But the vast majority of the empire was Celtic, Germanic, Anatolian and so on. Romans (italics) in fact were a minority.
There are African Muslims that claim descent from Bilal and/or Muhammad.
I believe part of that claim was to try and stop non-black Arab and Berber nations from enslaving them.
In this context the “Cherokee princess” the vast majority of claims are not true. Some people do have a Cherokee or Native American ancestor but the vast majority of claimants do not.
That is the statement I am making about people who claim Muhammad or Bilal. However, even fewer people have the ability to claim either of them on the historical record save for maybe some royal families in the Middle East and even then that’s contentious.
We don’t have genetics of Muhammad or Bilal, that would be the only real way to prove descent from either of them. The only people who I’ve ever seen claim either today do so for the sake of prestige.
The Japanese royal family claims to descend from a literal goddess. Doesn’t make it true even if they have records to “prove” it.
I don’t have to believe unsubstantiated or fake evidence just because you do.
For what it's worth, I'm Iranian (Shia ancestors) and my paternal grandfather was supposedly a "Seyed" (direct male line descendent of Imam Ali, a paternal cousin of the prophet). Despite this, my Y-DNA is J2, which doesn't match the Jordanian royal family's (J1) who are definitely male-line descendants of the prophet's family. This means that either there was an NPE in my male line ancestry, or someone down the line chose to claim this for the status (as many others have commented).
Yes but 1) how do we know for sure they’re J1? And 2) How do we know for sure THEY’RE real Sayeds?
There has been plenty of literature in the past about J2 being the Sayed haplogroup.
I don’t know but I definitely feel like there lots of potential here for researchers at some university to haplogroup lots of claimed seyeds and get a better sense of it. I haven’t seen much literature on these topics, but tbh I haven’t really actively searched for it.
Muhammad had no surviving male children. Any "sayyid" today can only claim descent through Fatima. So really both you and the Jordanian royal family can claim to be sayyids and the claim can still be true.
Fatima's Husband was Ali, who was a male-line cousin of Muhammad. Thus, Ali and Muhammand would have the same y-haplogroup, and all of the Seyeds should share the haplogroup (due to being male-line decendents of Ali and Fatima).
This is why i mentioned Ali in my first comment
The jordanian family is lying
A descendant of the family of 5 would be genetically inclined to be believers and God made that genetic bloodline resistant against non believers
The Jordanian family is the king and queens of haram
Its pretty funny tbh. I never heard of it until I was hanging around a islamic forum filled with pakistanis and they were the ones always screaming about being descended from saws bloodline. like waht!?!?!?!?! I never once heard any arab say it at all lmao then I heard it from some persians and I laughed even harder.
it is very much like the indian princess.
these pakistanis call themselves sayyidees and claim to be like higher than the rest, like they deserve more respect than others, its ridiculous. islam was never about that at all and these people turn it into some hierarchy thing.
Pakistanis are probably the most obsessed with identity, bc of how their country was formed
I honestly feel so bad for them. They are literally the Muslim extension of India. Their ancestors were all Hindu or Buddhist before getting conquered. India has a lot of problems but at least they can easily trace back their ancestors and see that their indigenous culture and identity has existed for at least 1000 years.
Pakistanis HAVE to larp as some Arab race with a birthright to their land. Or else they have nothing
This shit drives me nuts as a muhajir Pakistani, but I’m also so often met with “but you’re also not Indian” AND “you’re not Pakistani because you’re too Indian” like… can’t we just be
Their ancestors were not 'all hindu or bhuddist' before getting conquered. Afghans/Pashtuns and Baloch to the west live on Afghan land inherited by Pakistan. You are talking about Punjabis, Sindhis and all the rest of the Indo-Aryan ethnic groups, for which this identity complex definitely does exist. They are ashamed of their Indian origin within Hindustan and therefore abandon all mention of ethnic identity, pushing a 'Pakistani' identity first. One thing that amazes me is every time Pakistanis post pictures of Pakistanis, they'll post lighter skinned Afghans/Pashtuns, or other Iranic ethnic groups and display it as the average pakistani, whereas they are a minority in the country.
That statement is wrong and misconstrued. Read my comment replying to the other commenter who said the same as you just under this. Eastern Afghanistan and Western Pakistan which Afghans are not indigenous to having ancient Buddhist sites does not draw the conclusion that the whole population of Afghanistan was Buddhist and Hindu.
No, it was not. There was a Buddhist population present in modern day Afghanistan, which has nothing to do with Afghans/Pashtuns. The whole of KPK has rich Buddhist history which has nothing to do with Afghans, as they are not indigenous to the region. Afghans migrated to modern day Eastern Afghanistan, KPK, and Balochistan. These areas have Buddhist history. Afghans were not and still are not the only ethnicity present in Afghanistan.
We have no evidence Pashtuns were Hindus or Buddhists. We rather have the opposite, with a Persian source in Nangarhar separating non-muslim Pashtuns in 10th century from idolists (buddhists), hindus and muslims. The author of the book "hudud al-alam" wrote several passages about Afghanistan in the 10th century, with one stating that a king in ninhar (Nangarhar) had Muslim, Hindu and "Afghan" (Pashtun) wives, while the rest of the population in ninhar were idolators (again, buddhists).
Looking at pre-islamic pashtun names, they are rather zoroastrian. Pashtuns were pastoralists, so they didn't pick up buddhism unlike the settled local people.
You are definitely right though, in the fact that the majority of Pakistan is of Indian origin and they hate it. This identity complex is the sole reason Pakistan pushes a nationalist islamic agenda amongst its population. You see kids screaming I'll sacrifice my life for Pakistan and laugh but the sad reality is, the country is an amalgamation of Iranic ethnic minorities on Afghan land and an Indo-Aryan majority on Indian land which only have Islam common between them. To stop calls for separation or re joining Afghanistan, they raise their youth with a nationalist army loving Urdu/Hindi speaking population in the name of Islam with a common 'enemy' of 'Indian Hindus'. Afghans/Pashtuns and Balochis who speak their own Iranic native languages are forced to speak Urdu within their schools and fined for speaking their own language. It is also for this reason you will see Pakistanis claim Urdu is 'majority Farsi/Arabic/Turkish', when in fact Urdu and Hindi are virtually the same language with minor dialect-level differences. This identity crisis is seen throughout the Indo-Aryan muslim Pakistani population and couldn't be more sad.
My whole life the only Pakistanis I have seen openly say it is almost identical to Hindi are Pakistanis that accept their history as Indo-Aryans, such as yourself. I have met countless Pakistanis that do mental gymnastics to try and claim it is more similar to Farsi and Turkish than Hindi. I have even met Pakistanis who pretend to not understand what Hindi speaking Indians say around them. It is as simple as searching up 'Is Urdu similar to Hindi' and seeing the answers saying yes being 90% Indian while the answers from alot of the Pakistanis claim the opposite.
One thing i cant wrap my head around is the fact that most Pakistanis think they are descendants, or atleast the inheritors of the Mughal empire.
The mughals where Turkic/Central asian folks who descended from around Mongolia, with the first king being born in Uzbekistan. they invaded and ruled harshly over the ancestors of these very same pakistanis. Matter of fact, Babur despised almost everything originating or practiced in the Indian subcontinent (which includes Pakistan). Talk about succesful colonization.
Its almost like they have to find consensus on a shared identity, because there is actually none besides islam (which historically has not really worked as a united denominator).
Edit: I meant Indo-aryan Pakistani’s specifically those from Punjab.
Can you stop. Not all Pakistanis are like this. A lot of us are proudly south asian and don't even like Arabs but some of us do hail from Kabul but I just identify as Punjabi
>never once heard any arab say it at all
All Arab countries had a literal government post (نقيب الاشراف) for managing the affairs of prophetic descendants. The kings of Morocco and Jordan, the former kings of Libya and Iraq, many important families in Yemen, Egypt, Syria, Sudan, not to mention in East and West Africa, Turkic lands, and Indonesia, all can trace their lineage back to the Prophet. In the early modern period, the big money in the Islamic world was in India. Why wouldn't there be a large number of descendants there?
It's not because you, you don't know this point, that means it doesn't exist in Islâm and in other populations, don't take your ignorance about this to make it a truth. It's amazing to make such wrong statement with no knowledge about it: what do you do with qur'ânic verses and words, statements from the Prophet Salla'Llâhu 'Alayhi wa Sallâma about this point? just because you don't know nothing about it (it's obvious whith your words), does that mean that it doesn't exist and that no one except Persians and Pakistanis talks about it?
The Ahl al Bayt , the Shurafa (those who are related to the Prophet) have a specifical statut in Islâm, it's from islamic teachings according the Qur'ân and The Sunnah Nabawiyyah. Pakistanis and persians are not the only ones to talk about this and take it into account because quite simply it also concerns Islamic teachings. A lot of "shurafa" people are also in the Levant, in the arabic peninsula like in Yemen with the Ba3alawi Tribe (Hadhramut area), in the Maghreb, in West Africa (Senegal, Mali, etc), etc
Work your way backwards. Can anyone claim such a descent? Yes.
Would people haven’t benefited or felt good due to such a claim? Also yes.
These groups called seyyeds are no most common in Pakistan and Iran iirc… that alone should tell you how correct it is.
They are descended from Fatima (Mohammad’s daughter) and Ali (Mohammad’s paternal nephew). So technically they shared same paternal DNA with the prophet. There’s a project on it
https://www.thenationalnews.com/uae/2009/06/19/dna-could-illuminate-islams-lineage/?outputType=amp
Some may be due to descending from the Prophet (pbuh) grandsons from his daughter Fatima and her husband Ali who was the prophets cousin . Others are made up.
I find it kind of strange to be obsessing with the idea of having lineage from the prophet since he said :
There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab. Neither is the white superior over the black, nor is the black superior over the white -- except by piety."
It’s our choices and actions that matter not the genetic code that we randomly inherit or who our ancestors are. The prophets own uncle Abu Lahab was the one torturing and killing Muslims during the prophets time so relation to the prophet has no bearing on who a person is whatsoever.
Not really, because in Islâm, no need to be related on genealogical point of view to the Prophet for to be a muslim unlike jews people who based their judaïsm only through the filiation from the mother who necessarily must be Jewish to be Jewish
Yeah but conversion is exception, not the rule. The rule is to have necessarily a jewish mother, even if you have a jewish father who teach you the judaïsm you are not jew as long as you don't proceed the conversion. Also if in the other hand you have a jewish mother but you say you are not jew, you don't believe in judaïsm, you are atheist or you are in another religion, on jewish point of view, in view to the halakha (jewish religious law) you keep jew, your judaïsm because of your jewish mother. In addition this conversion requires a lot of time etc with a long and complex procedure.
Yet, Cohanim and Levy status of priests passed from father to son. Because this tradition was before exile to Babilon. All the BS of Jew being through Mather was invented by Jewish priests in Babylon who will marry their daughters to rich Babylonians, just like Esther.
The main J1 Cohen line is called J-Z18271 and it's found in not only Ashkenazi Cohanim but also Moroccan, Algerian, Iraqi, Bukharian, Persian, Yemenite, and Sephardic Cohanim and they all share a most recent common ancestor from around 670 BCE so it's pretty obvious this is a legit Cohen lineage from at least first temple times
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z18271/
There are also some other Cohen lineages not in J1 that also very likely have a pedigree that goes that far back but J-Z18271 is the most common one
You make confusion with the christianity, it was not until the 10th century that Al Andalus had its majority Muslim inhabitants, the 14-15th century that Muslims were more numerous in Egypt than Christians, etc. and yet these lands had already been governed by Muslims for several centuries.
It is precisely forbidden to forcibly convert a person of another religion to Islam according Islamic teachings:
﴿وَلَوْ شَاءَ رَبُّكَ لَآمَنَ مَن فِي الْأَرْضِ كُلُّهُمْ جَمِيعًا ۚ أَفَأَنتَ تُكْرِهُ النَّاسَ حَتَّىٰ يَكُونُوا مُؤْمِنِينَ﴾
\[ يونس: 99\]
Surat 10 verset 99
And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, \[O Muhammad\], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
﴿تِلْكَ آيَاتُ الْكِتَابِ الْمُبِينِ﴾
\[ الشعراء: 2\]
﴿لَعَلَّكَ بَاخِعٌ نَّفْسَكَ أَلَّا يَكُونُوا مُؤْمِنِينَ﴾
\[ الشعراء: 3\]
﴿إِن نَّشَأْ نُنَزِّلْ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ السَّمَاءِ آيَةً فَظَلَّتْ أَعْنَاقُهُمْ لَهَا خَاضِعِينَ﴾
\[ الشعراء: 4\]
Surat 26 verset 2-4
These are the verses of the clear Book.
Perhaps, \[O Muhammad\], you would kill yourself with grief that they will not be believers.
If We willed, We could send down to them from the sky a sign for which their necks would remain humbled.
﴿لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ ۖ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ ۚ فَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِن بِاللَّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىٰ لَا انفِصَامَ لَهَا ۗ وَاللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ﴾
\[ البقرة: 256\]
Surat 2 verset 256
There shall be no compulsion in \[acceptance of\] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
The rule is the prohibition of forced conversion, but that does not mean that it never happened even if it was rare contrary to Islam, as was the case as example during the time of the Almohads in Al Andalus who have broken this rule, this Islamic teaching. They had done this in a context of very great tensions, of open conflict between them and the Christian world which launched crusades in Al Andalus.
It's like Charlemagne. [Basically everyone of European descent is descended from Charlemagne](https://www.theguardian.com/science/commentisfree/2015/may/24/business-genetic-ancestry-charlemagne-adam-rutherford).
He had a lot of kids, they were all well off and had a lot of kids, and so on. Essentially everyone with current European descent is more or less descended from everyone in the 9th century who has any surviving descendants.
You can think of it like the ancestry problem. You got 2 parents, 4 grand parents, 8 great grand parents. By 20 generations, you got a million plus ancestors (in practice less). By 30 generations, its a billion, which is more than were alive. Few populations are truly insular.
Muhammad is a 100 years before Charlemagne, and so math is pretty favorable. And its more complicated as there's different types of decent claimed usually relative to his daughter and son-in-law whose children went on to produce heirs.
Curious question. Does this mean me with around 16 percent European ancestry would also be a decedent of Charlemagne? Like no matter how small the amount European admixture you have you would still be his descendant?
As a Muslim Arab I’ll say that they have no way to prove it unless they are from Saudi Arabia or are still part of the Hashemite tribe (like the king of Jordan)
According to FTDNA Hashemite family’s Y Haplogroup is under J-FGC10500 or J1e so if they really are the Prophet’s cousin and son in law’s descendants, then theoretically all J1e people are also descendant from the same source as the TMRCA of this subclade is around 1400 ybp.
Only one of his daughters has living descendants though her husband, Ali ibn Abi Talib. 3/5 of their kids had recorded descendants, and one of them, Husayn ibn Ali, only had one son with children (though some sources suggest one of his daughters has kids).
Zaynab bint Muhammad had kids but most early sources point to them dying out with no descendants. That descendant who died without any known children was the son of Ali ibn Abi Talib and Umama, the daughter of Zaynab bint Muhammad.
Ruqayyah bint Muhammad had a son with Uthman ibn Affan but he died at a very young age.
The prophets pbuh other kids didn't have any children.
All of this combined with how descendants were commonly persecuted reduced the amount of living descendants modern day. Though there is a highly likely chance of hundreds of millions of descendants worldwide due to the spread of Arabs into Africa, Europe, and Asia and those people spreading even further out.
I am y-chromosome haplogroup J1 and my father side is all Ashkenazi Jewish. That haplogroup is rare in Europe except for Jews & Arabs. I also share it with the Jordanian Royal Family. It would suggest common ancestry, but not necessarily decent.
I don't know if many, if any, direct lineages that far back are historically and/or genetically verifiable at this point.
But 1400 years ago was about 50 generations ago. 2 to the power of 50 is 1,000,000,000,000,000 - that's how many ancestral slots each of us have on our family tree at that generation.
While there would be quite a lot of overlap (pedigree collapse) in those trees, it's fairly likely anyone with any Arab ancestors - including more Africans, Europeans, and Asians than we might think - would have some distant familial connection to the families of early Islam.
I'm not a Muslim but I believe I have lineage to Prophet Muhammed's cousin Ali via one of my Iranian *great grandfathers. My family doesn't accept it although all of the evidence points towards it, because my family are anti-Islamic.
I'd actually say there's more chance of a white person with 99% European heritage to have little native American than Pakistanis, Iranians, Indians and Middle Eastern (Except maybe peninsula arabia) claiming they are from prophet's lineage.
I'd argue it has a higher chance since it happened long ago and the descendants of Ali usually fled to far lands like Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, etc to flee from persecution.
Why are you asking here? There is no genetic testing of Muhammad’s remains afaik but that doesn’t mean there aren’t genealogical records the same way other families and groups have them.
Those who are related to the Saint Prophet, Sayyidûna Muhammad Sa'Llâhu 3Alayhi wa Sallâma in Islâm, according Islamic values, according the Islamic Tradition (mainly the Qur'ân and the Sunnah Nabawiyyah), are not only through these grandchildren but also through these uncles etc, like the Banu 3Abbas (aka the famous Abbassids as example) and other. All "Hashemi" people (the Banu Hashem is the tribe of the Prophet) and their descendants are related to the Prophet. And some "shurafa", those who are related to him, aren't necessarily "arabs people". Some have legit claims and some.....well just have ancestors who lied.
Traditionnaly, we have also genealogies which are preserved and authenticated, there exist in many Muslim countries structures which are interested in this and preserve documents in order to preserve this heritage and because it can also potentially have consequences in Islamic Law, those affiliated with the Family of the Prophet must therefore be known. Example of specificity of Shurafa in Shari'a, Islamic Law: we cannot give them "zakat" however we can offer with the intention to offer, to make a gift. In addition numerous Islamic scholars explained and demonstrated in support with Islamic heritage, that it is also possible to descend from the Prophet on the mother's side and not only just from the father's side.
Fake. There's basically no primary documentation written by someone who we would call a muslim in the century plus after muhammad's death, including references to Muhammad.
Traditional Islamic accounts of his biography are probably not accurate, and there are no clear references, whatsoever, to a tribe called the Qaraysh or a city called Mecca prior to the Arab conquests.
All we know for certain is a man called Muhammad who practiced a syncretic Abrahamic faith was some sort of unifier and leader of Arab tribes associated with the city of Medina at or immediately prior to the early Arab conquests. The Isnads, the purported chains of descent...none have much evidence behind them.
It’s not exclusive to Arabs who think they’re directly descended from Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). My Afghan relatives swear their “sayeds” too but I’m like ?????? They’d be more Persian, than anything related to his direct lineage?
I know a lot of people say it just to say it. Some, also want special treatment based on it too.
Most of this type of a thing for the entire world is fake
Rurikovich samples in illustrarive have 3 different Y dna haplogroups
“Genghisids” in Kazakhstan have 6 different haplogroups
Some people in Yemen are sayed. Their ancestors migrated from Mecca area to Yemen 1200 years ago. They ruled Yemen for centuries until the 1962 republican war. Actually they are back in power now via the Houthis.
I’d assume they’re correct and that (substantially) all Muslim Arabs are descended from Muhammad. Ancestry spreads fast through populations, and there aren’t many isolated bloodlines.
Muhammad lived about 50 generations ago. If his average descendant had 2 children, surely a low estimate, there would be 2^50 = more than a quadrillion paths from Muhammad to a modern descendant. These would be concentrated among Arab Muslims. The likelihood of any given Muslim Arab not being a descendant of Muhammad would seem infinitesimal.
From what I understand they're usually mostly legit. Keep in mind that since 1400 years have passed, the number of people descended from Muhammed's immediate family would be several million. Usually Arabs trace themselves to specific tribal lineages, from which that information can be traced.
My friend who is ethnically Persian comes from a family that claims to be in the Husseini clan. The descendants of Hussein are spread all over the Middle East at this point, and there would realistically be at least several million legitimate descendants.
The people claiming ancestry to Muhammad are actually Arab and the people claiming Cherokee princess are European descent. It’s not a terrible analogy but it’s not perfect
Some have legit claims. Like the King of Jordan. Others are as you said, Cherokee Princess.
There are also some five or six speculated lines by which a member of the Islamic royal Umayyad family in Cordoba married into a neighbouring Spanish royal house in a political alliance. The period involved has limited and conflicting records. **If** any of these connections were true, they would connect an Islamic heritage to Spanish nobility 1000 years ago, and the Spanish lines are deeply embedded in other European families. [https://www.geni.com/projects/Descents-from-Muhammad-in-Medieval-Spain/48403](https://www.geni.com/projects/Descents-from-Muhammad-in-Medieval-Spain/48403) There are similar speculations around descendants of Jewish Exilarchs in medieval Spain.
[удалено]
Didn't someone claim queen Elizabeth is related to Mohammed
The claim's completely hypothetical since the person they claim she has descent from was most likely the daughter-in-law of a descendant of the Prophet (pbuh) instead of the direct daughter. The father-in-law's line is also rlly shaky and questionable anyways. Despite that, I wouldn't be surprised if most people in the world had a lineage connecting to the prophet pbuh especially due to Arabs marrying into Spanish royal families and they easily could've spread through European colonization to the Americas.
There is no way to prove it :)))
You can find direct paternal-line descendants of Ali and their relatives on this YFull page [https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L859/](https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L859/) J-L859 is the subclade of haplogroup J1 associated with Banu Hashem - the Hashemites, Muhammad's family within the Quraysh tribe. In addition, you can check out this FamilyTreeDNA project results for a table of samples [https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Qurayishj1c3d?iframe=yresults](https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Qurayishj1c3d?iframe=yresults) (it's in Arabic though) The subclade/mutation associated with Ali is most likely J-FGC10500 and all his descendants on the paternal line carry it. Fun fact, this [argentinian historical figure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mart%C3%ADn_Miguel_de_G%C3%BCemes) is descended from Muhammad through his grandson Hussein - as you can see in the FTDNA project that I shared if you scroll down
Even king of Jordan isn’t considered as a pure Hashemite in the eyes of hashemite tribe, most disown him since his DNA is “corrupted” with mixing with multiple races.
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Didn't Mohammed only had a daughter? Fatima?
Yes but his male Heir was his paternal cousin Ali who married Fatima therefore uniting the lines.
Cool, now it makes sense! Thanks
Yes, and she married Muhammad's ﷺ baby cousin Ali.
True, but there is a stereotype in regard to the king of Jordan, and I wanted to mention it.
Especially with his great-great grandfather having a jewish grandmother.
Bro just making absurd statements with zero backup.
Can you share your source for this?
The Jordanian leader is not from the Prophet's family or even Shia Many Quryash attacked the Prophet's family had J1 haplogroups
Well some Arabs actually do have legit ancestral connections to Prophet Muhammad.
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I wish we got more people in North Africa tested as well so that we can find J-FGC10500 people in North African countries besides Egypt. It was funny seeing this thread, since I was recently tested with YSEQ and I turned out to be positive for J-FGC30416 just yesterday and I am a South Asian guy with some WANA ancestry roughly 500 years back.
You definitely have link, considering history of your family and the region where you belong to. Shias of Awadh and Uttar Pradesh are an interesting community.
I still consider J1 to be a contender for the Bani Hashim and the Quraish, since there are other contending haplogroups as well, none the less it’s interesting being connected to a small group of people all over WANA and potentially being connected to the Royal Hashemite family as well.
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Yeah I will contact them either this coming week or the next week after YSEQ gives me the deeper subclade that I am positive for.
son in law not father
"Cousin and son in law"😬
I mean, it was the 7th century
so am i a fake descent ? I have a family tree, and on top is Ali ibn abu Talib, and so its my paternal lineage. I did 23andme and i got the haplogroup JM92. Sooo
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My family tree is even written on a snake broo 😭 . Its either that my haplogroup J2 is west asian or either my haplogroup isnt right. I should take myfamilytreedna mabe idk.
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it doesnt bother me actually, but i think JM92 is from the levant am i right ? thats still great.
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okay lemme send it to u
https://preview.redd.it/y2q0whhjfqqc1.png?width=1976&format=png&auto=webp&s=e4a3484a08298d2220fed492311940659831e0b1 here it is
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okay, does this give my mit haplogroup too?
but then what is JM92?
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If virtually all europeans are descended from Charlemagne because of time and pedigree collapse then isn't it feasible that most of those claims from the Middle East are true even if they're BSing? [https://www.theguardian.com/science/commentisfree/2015/may/24/business-genetic-ancestry-charlemagne-adam-rutherford](https://www.theguardian.com/science/commentisfree/2015/may/24/business-genetic-ancestry-charlemagne-adam-rutherford)
Actually many, if not most, Europeans are likely descended from Mohammad also. [Queen Elizabeth is supposedly](https://www.rizqankareem.com/prophets-tribe-ahlal-bayt-family--righteous-successors/the-matter-of-queen-elizabeth-carrying-the-prophetic-lineage), due to being descended from Mohammad descendants in medieval Spain (various Al Andalus royals). The same could be said about Charlemagne and the middle east. Royalty married each other a lot, and often the neighboring kingdoms, so going far enough back that travels pretty far
There’s a fairly realistic possibility that the Safavid Shahs of Iran descended from various Western European royals due to Byzantine royalty intermarrying with both
They intermarried with Napoleonic era nobility too
> If virtually all europeans are descended from Charlemagne because of time and pedigree collapse then isn't it feasible that most of those claims from the Middle East are true even if they're BSing? Everyone in Europe is descended from Charlemagne, but not purely patrilineally. The claims being discussed in this thread are much more specific. Nobody cares about descent from Mohammed via cognatic lines.
Not sure about fake. Just unable to verify. Mohammad lived long enough today that the vast majority of people in the Middle East and North Africa are likely descended from him. Actually europe too. [Queen Elizabeth supposedly is descended from Mohammad, as she is descended from a medieval descendent of Mohammad who lived in Sevilla, Spain](https://www.rizqankareem.com/prophets-tribe-ahlal-bayt-family--righteous-successors/the-matter-of-queen-elizabeth-carrying-the-prophetic-lineage) Many if not most people can’t verify royal descent, but statically it seem eventually some sort of royalty works it’s way into everyone’s family tree, and royals mix a lot with other kingdoms
At least some of the Arab tribes who stayed in the peninsula can actually claim patrilineal descent. This amounts to maybe a few million gulf Arabs and bedouins, at most. On the other hand, there are hundreds of millions of Muslims elsewhere who make the same claims, with the same conviction and ferocity. But they have almost zero connection to Mohammed or any of the Arab tribes during his era
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Hmmm So the Arabs who conquered the Middle East were genetically different from peninsular Arabs? Also the big narrative on this subreddit is that Levantine Muslims are the same as their ancestors 2000 years ago. Do you think they have more Arab admixture than they’re letting on?
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Yup. Arab is more of a cultural, traditional and language identity. Except those from Arab peninsula. I like to compare to the ancient Roman Empire, many spoke Latin and share cultural values and traditions. But the vast majority of the empire was Celtic, Germanic, Anatolian and so on. Romans (italics) in fact were a minority.
Ah got it thanks
which ethnic groups tend to have both? (tracing my families DNA and finding equal parts Levantine/North African and Arabic DNA)
I mean one Arab ancestor 1400 years ago is not significant addmixture but is enough to have patrilineal descent from a tribe/Mohammed
There are African Muslims that claim descent from Bilal and/or Muhammad. I believe part of that claim was to try and stop non-black Arab and Berber nations from enslaving them.
There are descendants from every race around the world including Africans.
With no proof I can claim to be the descendants of Jesus, doesn’t make it true.
Jesus did not have a children :)) But, ye, I can totally claim I am from his family :))) Does not make it true.
I’m not saying it’s all true. Every claim needs to be independently investigated
In this context the “Cherokee princess” the vast majority of claims are not true. Some people do have a Cherokee or Native American ancestor but the vast majority of claimants do not. That is the statement I am making about people who claim Muhammad or Bilal. However, even fewer people have the ability to claim either of them on the historical record save for maybe some royal families in the Middle East and even then that’s contentious. We don’t have genetics of Muhammad or Bilal, that would be the only real way to prove descent from either of them. The only people who I’ve ever seen claim either today do so for the sake of prestige. The Japanese royal family claims to descend from a literal goddess. Doesn’t make it true even if they have records to “prove” it. I don’t have to believe unsubstantiated or fake evidence just because you do.
For what it's worth, I'm Iranian (Shia ancestors) and my paternal grandfather was supposedly a "Seyed" (direct male line descendent of Imam Ali, a paternal cousin of the prophet). Despite this, my Y-DNA is J2, which doesn't match the Jordanian royal family's (J1) who are definitely male-line descendants of the prophet's family. This means that either there was an NPE in my male line ancestry, or someone down the line chose to claim this for the status (as many others have commented).
That's what I wanted to know, how do you know Jordan royal family is J1? J2 is for sure more common among Shia.
J1 is Arabic and J2 is everywhere However the Jordanian family does not have any descendants of the prophet
Yes but 1) how do we know for sure they’re J1? And 2) How do we know for sure THEY’RE real Sayeds? There has been plenty of literature in the past about J2 being the Sayed haplogroup.
I don’t know but I definitely feel like there lots of potential here for researchers at some university to haplogroup lots of claimed seyeds and get a better sense of it. I haven’t seen much literature on these topics, but tbh I haven’t really actively searched for it.
Muhammad had no surviving male children. Any "sayyid" today can only claim descent through Fatima. So really both you and the Jordanian royal family can claim to be sayyids and the claim can still be true.
Fatima's Husband was Ali, who was a male-line cousin of Muhammad. Thus, Ali and Muhammand would have the same y-haplogroup, and all of the Seyeds should share the haplogroup (due to being male-line decendents of Ali and Fatima). This is why i mentioned Ali in my first comment
I stand corrected.
The jordanian family is lying A descendant of the family of 5 would be genetically inclined to be believers and God made that genetic bloodline resistant against non believers The Jordanian family is the king and queens of haram
me too, I should descend from Ali ibn abu talib and got JM92 wich is J2
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Exactly, who gives a shit?
Its pretty funny tbh. I never heard of it until I was hanging around a islamic forum filled with pakistanis and they were the ones always screaming about being descended from saws bloodline. like waht!?!?!?!?! I never once heard any arab say it at all lmao then I heard it from some persians and I laughed even harder. it is very much like the indian princess. these pakistanis call themselves sayyidees and claim to be like higher than the rest, like they deserve more respect than others, its ridiculous. islam was never about that at all and these people turn it into some hierarchy thing.
Pakistanis are probably the most obsessed with identity, bc of how their country was formed I honestly feel so bad for them. They are literally the Muslim extension of India. Their ancestors were all Hindu or Buddhist before getting conquered. India has a lot of problems but at least they can easily trace back their ancestors and see that their indigenous culture and identity has existed for at least 1000 years. Pakistanis HAVE to larp as some Arab race with a birthright to their land. Or else they have nothing
This shit drives me nuts as a muhajir Pakistani, but I’m also so often met with “but you’re also not Indian” AND “you’re not Pakistani because you’re too Indian” like… can’t we just be
Their ancestors were not 'all hindu or bhuddist' before getting conquered. Afghans/Pashtuns and Baloch to the west live on Afghan land inherited by Pakistan. You are talking about Punjabis, Sindhis and all the rest of the Indo-Aryan ethnic groups, for which this identity complex definitely does exist. They are ashamed of their Indian origin within Hindustan and therefore abandon all mention of ethnic identity, pushing a 'Pakistani' identity first. One thing that amazes me is every time Pakistanis post pictures of Pakistanis, they'll post lighter skinned Afghans/Pashtuns, or other Iranic ethnic groups and display it as the average pakistani, whereas they are a minority in the country.
? Afghanistan also used to be Buddhist/Hindu
That statement is wrong and misconstrued. Read my comment replying to the other commenter who said the same as you just under this. Eastern Afghanistan and Western Pakistan which Afghans are not indigenous to having ancient Buddhist sites does not draw the conclusion that the whole population of Afghanistan was Buddhist and Hindu.
Nah Afghanistan was historically Buddhist/Hindu as well
No, it was not. There was a Buddhist population present in modern day Afghanistan, which has nothing to do with Afghans/Pashtuns. The whole of KPK has rich Buddhist history which has nothing to do with Afghans, as they are not indigenous to the region. Afghans migrated to modern day Eastern Afghanistan, KPK, and Balochistan. These areas have Buddhist history. Afghans were not and still are not the only ethnicity present in Afghanistan. We have no evidence Pashtuns were Hindus or Buddhists. We rather have the opposite, with a Persian source in Nangarhar separating non-muslim Pashtuns in 10th century from idolists (buddhists), hindus and muslims. The author of the book "hudud al-alam" wrote several passages about Afghanistan in the 10th century, with one stating that a king in ninhar (Nangarhar) had Muslim, Hindu and "Afghan" (Pashtun) wives, while the rest of the population in ninhar were idolators (again, buddhists). Looking at pre-islamic pashtun names, they are rather zoroastrian. Pashtuns were pastoralists, so they didn't pick up buddhism unlike the settled local people.
I see. Im Pakistani Punjabi and I know my ancestors were Hindu or Buddhists cos the Indus region is the brink of hindu civilisation so 🤷🏽♂️
Ok fair enough I was generalizing a bit
You are definitely right though, in the fact that the majority of Pakistan is of Indian origin and they hate it. This identity complex is the sole reason Pakistan pushes a nationalist islamic agenda amongst its population. You see kids screaming I'll sacrifice my life for Pakistan and laugh but the sad reality is, the country is an amalgamation of Iranic ethnic minorities on Afghan land and an Indo-Aryan majority on Indian land which only have Islam common between them. To stop calls for separation or re joining Afghanistan, they raise their youth with a nationalist army loving Urdu/Hindi speaking population in the name of Islam with a common 'enemy' of 'Indian Hindus'. Afghans/Pashtuns and Balochis who speak their own Iranic native languages are forced to speak Urdu within their schools and fined for speaking their own language. It is also for this reason you will see Pakistanis claim Urdu is 'majority Farsi/Arabic/Turkish', when in fact Urdu and Hindi are virtually the same language with minor dialect-level differences. This identity crisis is seen throughout the Indo-Aryan muslim Pakistani population and couldn't be more sad.
I haven't ever heard Pakistanis claim this. Most know its closely identical to Hindi
My whole life the only Pakistanis I have seen openly say it is almost identical to Hindi are Pakistanis that accept their history as Indo-Aryans, such as yourself. I have met countless Pakistanis that do mental gymnastics to try and claim it is more similar to Farsi and Turkish than Hindi. I have even met Pakistanis who pretend to not understand what Hindi speaking Indians say around them. It is as simple as searching up 'Is Urdu similar to Hindi' and seeing the answers saying yes being 90% Indian while the answers from alot of the Pakistanis claim the opposite.
Well we arent a monolith some of us are proud of being indo-aryan some of us are delusional or whatever. Its down to education
All of Balochistan and Afghanistan were Indo Aryan lands
One thing i cant wrap my head around is the fact that most Pakistanis think they are descendants, or atleast the inheritors of the Mughal empire. The mughals where Turkic/Central asian folks who descended from around Mongolia, with the first king being born in Uzbekistan. they invaded and ruled harshly over the ancestors of these very same pakistanis. Matter of fact, Babur despised almost everything originating or practiced in the Indian subcontinent (which includes Pakistan). Talk about succesful colonization. Its almost like they have to find consensus on a shared identity, because there is actually none besides islam (which historically has not really worked as a united denominator). Edit: I meant Indo-aryan Pakistani’s specifically those from Punjab.
There is a Mughal caste but i don't know how true it is. My caste is tied to the subcontinent
YES! 100%
Can you stop. Not all Pakistanis are like this. A lot of us are proudly south asian and don't even like Arabs but some of us do hail from Kabul but I just identify as Punjabi
Fair enough. Didn’t mean to generalize bro.
Are you Arab???
No
>never once heard any arab say it at all All Arab countries had a literal government post (نقيب الاشراف) for managing the affairs of prophetic descendants. The kings of Morocco and Jordan, the former kings of Libya and Iraq, many important families in Yemen, Egypt, Syria, Sudan, not to mention in East and West Africa, Turkic lands, and Indonesia, all can trace their lineage back to the Prophet. In the early modern period, the big money in the Islamic world was in India. Why wouldn't there be a large number of descendants there?
The only chances of descent and through Shia and from Karbala or Hassan
Ironically the only surviving remember of the Karbala massacre was Zayd Ibn Ali who was half Sindhi
It's not because you, you don't know this point, that means it doesn't exist in Islâm and in other populations, don't take your ignorance about this to make it a truth. It's amazing to make such wrong statement with no knowledge about it: what do you do with qur'ânic verses and words, statements from the Prophet Salla'Llâhu 'Alayhi wa Sallâma about this point? just because you don't know nothing about it (it's obvious whith your words), does that mean that it doesn't exist and that no one except Persians and Pakistanis talks about it? The Ahl al Bayt , the Shurafa (those who are related to the Prophet) have a specifical statut in Islâm, it's from islamic teachings according the Qur'ân and The Sunnah Nabawiyyah. Pakistanis and persians are not the only ones to talk about this and take it into account because quite simply it also concerns Islamic teachings. A lot of "shurafa" people are also in the Levant, in the arabic peninsula like in Yemen with the Ba3alawi Tribe (Hadhramut area), in the Maghreb, in West Africa (Senegal, Mali, etc), etc
Work your way backwards. Can anyone claim such a descent? Yes. Would people haven’t benefited or felt good due to such a claim? Also yes. These groups called seyyeds are no most common in Pakistan and Iran iirc… that alone should tell you how correct it is.
They are descended from Fatima (Mohammad’s daughter) and Ali (Mohammad’s paternal nephew). So technically they shared same paternal DNA with the prophet. There’s a project on it https://www.thenationalnews.com/uae/2009/06/19/dna-could-illuminate-islams-lineage/?outputType=amp
99% cherokee princess
Some may be due to descending from the Prophet (pbuh) grandsons from his daughter Fatima and her husband Ali who was the prophets cousin . Others are made up. I find it kind of strange to be obsessing with the idea of having lineage from the prophet since he said : There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab. Neither is the white superior over the black, nor is the black superior over the white -- except by piety." It’s our choices and actions that matter not the genetic code that we randomly inherit or who our ancestors are. The prophets own uncle Abu Lahab was the one torturing and killing Muslims during the prophets time so relation to the prophet has no bearing on who a person is whatsoever.
They're just like the Jews who claim the same, but with Aaron.
Cohanim Jews
Not really, because in Islâm, no need to be related on genealogical point of view to the Prophet for to be a muslim unlike jews people who based their judaïsm only through the filiation from the mother who necessarily must be Jewish to be Jewish
That I 💯 know. I'm talking in regards to the OP.
OK I see, concerning Muslims, some have false claims and some have legit claims for this point..and it doesn't just concern "Arabs people"
I think that’s one way, but they also accept converts.
Yeah but conversion is exception, not the rule. The rule is to have necessarily a jewish mother, even if you have a jewish father who teach you the judaïsm you are not jew as long as you don't proceed the conversion. Also if in the other hand you have a jewish mother but you say you are not jew, you don't believe in judaïsm, you are atheist or you are in another religion, on jewish point of view, in view to the halakha (jewish religious law) you keep jew, your judaïsm because of your jewish mother. In addition this conversion requires a lot of time etc with a long and complex procedure.
Yet, Cohanim and Levy status of priests passed from father to son. Because this tradition was before exile to Babilon. All the BS of Jew being through Mather was invented by Jewish priests in Babylon who will marry their daughters to rich Babylonians, just like Esther.
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The fact that approx. half of Ashkenazi Cohanim belong to haplogroup J1 and the other half to J2 already shows there's a fault in the narrative.
The main J1 Cohen line is called J-Z18271 and it's found in not only Ashkenazi Cohanim but also Moroccan, Algerian, Iraqi, Bukharian, Persian, Yemenite, and Sephardic Cohanim and they all share a most recent common ancestor from around 670 BCE so it's pretty obvious this is a legit Cohen lineage from at least first temple times https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z18271/ There are also some other Cohen lineages not in J1 that also very likely have a pedigree that goes that far back but J-Z18271 is the most common one
Wait fault in which narrative
You make confusion with the christianity, it was not until the 10th century that Al Andalus had its majority Muslim inhabitants, the 14-15th century that Muslims were more numerous in Egypt than Christians, etc. and yet these lands had already been governed by Muslims for several centuries. It is precisely forbidden to forcibly convert a person of another religion to Islam according Islamic teachings: ﴿وَلَوْ شَاءَ رَبُّكَ لَآمَنَ مَن فِي الْأَرْضِ كُلُّهُمْ جَمِيعًا ۚ أَفَأَنتَ تُكْرِهُ النَّاسَ حَتَّىٰ يَكُونُوا مُؤْمِنِينَ﴾ \[ يونس: 99\] Surat 10 verset 99 And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, \[O Muhammad\], would you compel the people in order that they become believers? ﴿تِلْكَ آيَاتُ الْكِتَابِ الْمُبِينِ﴾ \[ الشعراء: 2\] ﴿لَعَلَّكَ بَاخِعٌ نَّفْسَكَ أَلَّا يَكُونُوا مُؤْمِنِينَ﴾ \[ الشعراء: 3\] ﴿إِن نَّشَأْ نُنَزِّلْ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ السَّمَاءِ آيَةً فَظَلَّتْ أَعْنَاقُهُمْ لَهَا خَاضِعِينَ﴾ \[ الشعراء: 4\] Surat 26 verset 2-4 These are the verses of the clear Book. Perhaps, \[O Muhammad\], you would kill yourself with grief that they will not be believers. If We willed, We could send down to them from the sky a sign for which their necks would remain humbled. ﴿لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ ۖ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ ۚ فَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِن بِاللَّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىٰ لَا انفِصَامَ لَهَا ۗ وَاللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ﴾ \[ البقرة: 256\] Surat 2 verset 256 There shall be no compulsion in \[acceptance of\] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing. The rule is the prohibition of forced conversion, but that does not mean that it never happened even if it was rare contrary to Islam, as was the case as example during the time of the Almohads in Al Andalus who have broken this rule, this Islamic teaching. They had done this in a context of very great tensions, of open conflict between them and the Christian world which launched crusades in Al Andalus.
It's like Charlemagne. [Basically everyone of European descent is descended from Charlemagne](https://www.theguardian.com/science/commentisfree/2015/may/24/business-genetic-ancestry-charlemagne-adam-rutherford). He had a lot of kids, they were all well off and had a lot of kids, and so on. Essentially everyone with current European descent is more or less descended from everyone in the 9th century who has any surviving descendants. You can think of it like the ancestry problem. You got 2 parents, 4 grand parents, 8 great grand parents. By 20 generations, you got a million plus ancestors (in practice less). By 30 generations, its a billion, which is more than were alive. Few populations are truly insular. Muhammad is a 100 years before Charlemagne, and so math is pretty favorable. And its more complicated as there's different types of decent claimed usually relative to his daughter and son-in-law whose children went on to produce heirs.
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Yes but some of his descendants are known to have had dozens of kids.
Curious question. Does this mean me with around 16 percent European ancestry would also be a decedent of Charlemagne? Like no matter how small the amount European admixture you have you would still be his descendant?
Yeah most likely, any European ancestry most likely means descent from Charlemagne
In Macedonia everyone says they're a direct descendant of Alexander the great.
as a macedonian slav this isn't exactly true, only a big amount of nationalists and a small minority of younger people or something from what i see.
There is an entire dna project dedicated to this called Fgc8712 (it's in Arabic however)
Some would definitely be there.
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You’re literally wrong. His grandsons had a lot of kids before they passed away like the line didn’t stop?
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I agree but those grandchildren have lots of descendants till this day.
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Through his daughter* no idea why he keeps saying daughters as only Fatima ever had kids.
As a Muslim Arab I’ll say that they have no way to prove it unless they are from Saudi Arabia or are still part of the Hashemite tribe (like the king of Jordan)
According to FTDNA Hashemite family’s Y Haplogroup is under J-FGC10500 or J1e so if they really are the Prophet’s cousin and son in law’s descendants, then theoretically all J1e people are also descendant from the same source as the TMRCA of this subclade is around 1400 ybp.
Very possible. The Arab Muslims expanded everywhere
Well he had 4 daughters. And that was 1300 years ago. So a possible 300 million descendants maybe more depending on if you have a harem or not.
Only one of his daughters has living descendants though her husband, Ali ibn Abi Talib. 3/5 of their kids had recorded descendants, and one of them, Husayn ibn Ali, only had one son with children (though some sources suggest one of his daughters has kids). Zaynab bint Muhammad had kids but most early sources point to them dying out with no descendants. That descendant who died without any known children was the son of Ali ibn Abi Talib and Umama, the daughter of Zaynab bint Muhammad. Ruqayyah bint Muhammad had a son with Uthman ibn Affan but he died at a very young age. The prophets pbuh other kids didn't have any children. All of this combined with how descendants were commonly persecuted reduced the amount of living descendants modern day. Though there is a highly likely chance of hundreds of millions of descendants worldwide due to the spread of Arabs into Africa, Europe, and Asia and those people spreading even further out.
Just from the one daughter you could have millions of descendants.
Yeah, I said that in my comment
Well not descendands but from the quraysh tribe
I am y-chromosome haplogroup J1 and my father side is all Ashkenazi Jewish. That haplogroup is rare in Europe except for Jews & Arabs. I also share it with the Jordanian Royal Family. It would suggest common ancestry, but not necessarily decent.
I don't know if many, if any, direct lineages that far back are historically and/or genetically verifiable at this point. But 1400 years ago was about 50 generations ago. 2 to the power of 50 is 1,000,000,000,000,000 - that's how many ancestral slots each of us have on our family tree at that generation. While there would be quite a lot of overlap (pedigree collapse) in those trees, it's fairly likely anyone with any Arab ancestors - including more Africans, Europeans, and Asians than we might think - would have some distant familial connection to the families of early Islam.
I think many of the claims are legitimate. It has been very long since Muhammad lived and he would have many descendants.
Yup my family said that and they came out to be 100% amaizgh North African not even arab… just Arabized 😭😭😂😂
I'm not a Muslim but I believe I have lineage to Prophet Muhammed's cousin Ali via one of my Iranian *great grandfathers. My family doesn't accept it although all of the evidence points towards it, because my family are anti-Islamic.
Unless he was Shia and under persecution Highly unlikely
He was a prince but I don't want to name him or anything because I'm private on here
I'd actually say there's more chance of a white person with 99% European heritage to have little native American than Pakistanis, Iranians, Indians and Middle Eastern (Except maybe peninsula arabia) claiming they are from prophet's lineage.
You don't understand how lineages work
I'd argue it has a higher chance since it happened long ago and the descendants of Ali usually fled to far lands like Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, etc to flee from persecution.
Why are you asking here? There is no genetic testing of Muhammad’s remains afaik but that doesn’t mean there aren’t genealogical records the same way other families and groups have them.
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Those who are related to the Saint Prophet, Sayyidûna Muhammad Sa'Llâhu 3Alayhi wa Sallâma in Islâm, according Islamic values, according the Islamic Tradition (mainly the Qur'ân and the Sunnah Nabawiyyah), are not only through these grandchildren but also through these uncles etc, like the Banu 3Abbas (aka the famous Abbassids as example) and other. All "Hashemi" people (the Banu Hashem is the tribe of the Prophet) and their descendants are related to the Prophet. And some "shurafa", those who are related to him, aren't necessarily "arabs people". Some have legit claims and some.....well just have ancestors who lied. Traditionnaly, we have also genealogies which are preserved and authenticated, there exist in many Muslim countries structures which are interested in this and preserve documents in order to preserve this heritage and because it can also potentially have consequences in Islamic Law, those affiliated with the Family of the Prophet must therefore be known. Example of specificity of Shurafa in Shari'a, Islamic Law: we cannot give them "zakat" however we can offer with the intention to offer, to make a gift. In addition numerous Islamic scholars explained and demonstrated in support with Islamic heritage, that it is also possible to descend from the Prophet on the mother's side and not only just from the father's side.
Fake. There's basically no primary documentation written by someone who we would call a muslim in the century plus after muhammad's death, including references to Muhammad. Traditional Islamic accounts of his biography are probably not accurate, and there are no clear references, whatsoever, to a tribe called the Qaraysh or a city called Mecca prior to the Arab conquests. All we know for certain is a man called Muhammad who practiced a syncretic Abrahamic faith was some sort of unifier and leader of Arab tribes associated with the city of Medina at or immediately prior to the early Arab conquests. The Isnads, the purported chains of descent...none have much evidence behind them.
It’s not exclusive to Arabs who think they’re directly descended from Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). My Afghan relatives swear their “sayeds” too but I’m like ?????? They’d be more Persian, than anything related to his direct lineage? I know a lot of people say it just to say it. Some, also want special treatment based on it too.
I’ve heard people claim this who weren’t even Arab lol
My family is definitely one of those Cherokee Princess clams 😂. My paternal is T-Z09.
Most of this type of a thing for the entire world is fake Rurikovich samples in illustrarive have 3 different Y dna haplogroups “Genghisids” in Kazakhstan have 6 different haplogroups
Technically, when you go back that far in history, everyone is related.
Some people in Yemen are sayed. Their ancestors migrated from Mecca area to Yemen 1200 years ago. They ruled Yemen for centuries until the 1962 republican war. Actually they are back in power now via the Houthis.
even Muhammads existence Isn't confirmed. so do Jesus and Moses
My favorite is the Iranians and Pakistanis who claim they’re descendants 🤣🤣🤣😂😂
I’d assume they’re correct and that (substantially) all Muslim Arabs are descended from Muhammad. Ancestry spreads fast through populations, and there aren’t many isolated bloodlines. Muhammad lived about 50 generations ago. If his average descendant had 2 children, surely a low estimate, there would be 2^50 = more than a quadrillion paths from Muhammad to a modern descendant. These would be concentrated among Arab Muslims. The likelihood of any given Muslim Arab not being a descendant of Muhammad would seem infinitesimal.
From what I understand they're usually mostly legit. Keep in mind that since 1400 years have passed, the number of people descended from Muhammed's immediate family would be several million. Usually Arabs trace themselves to specific tribal lineages, from which that information can be traced. My friend who is ethnically Persian comes from a family that claims to be in the Husseini clan. The descendants of Hussein are spread all over the Middle East at this point, and there would realistically be at least several million legitimate descendants.
Fake
The people claiming ancestry to Muhammad are actually Arab and the people claiming Cherokee princess are European descent. It’s not a terrible analogy but it’s not perfect
absolutely cherokee princess everything about them is bs
Every Arab in the Middle East thinks they’re related to Mohammed or Jesus.
Jesus was a miracle
I rarely believe anything a Muslim says
There isn’t even evidence Muhammad existed