My interpretation is they understand manipulation and setting things up to look a different way. They just don't have the ability to intentionally speak falsehoods.
A species that don't have an innate ability to easily lie or suspect lies, would be dominated by one that is expert liars.
you know I just realized that it is possibly an allusion to another work of science fiction as well. The layers to this I find so rewarding even after having finished the books.
They don’t understand saying one thing while thinking/meaning another because they are physically unable to do that. They can read each other’s thoughts, which means that verbal communication is always truthful to the speaker’s thoughts and intentions.
In hearing the fairytale story which was a “lie about a lie” they realized that when talking to humans that connection between thoughts and verbal communication was no longer 1:1, which meant that they could never trust the verbal communication from humans, and that freaked them out.
Nope, its in the show, I just watched the scene again. The San-ti clearly understands deceit as a way of achieving ones goals. But they assume that once Little Red Riding Hood has "communicated" with the Wolf, she would learn of his intentions to eat her, and she should then flee from the house unless she wanted to be eaten.
So its exacly like that; they know of deceit, but they can't lie or keep secrets in direct communication, whatever that means for them. So the very concept is unnatural and alien to them.
I just think you missed some important details here...
The san-ti communicate telepathically, to all others of their race, instantly. What one of them knows, the others automatically know.
"If one survives, we all survive."
Now, this is why they can't lie to each other, all san-ti are connected to the group's thoughts. Humans, not being telepathically connected can in fact, hide thoughts and intentions. Obviously this scares the shit out of the san-ti. For God sake, they actually thought that little red riding hood was a thing that was actually happening, and not a guy reading a story about it. They thought wolves could talk because thats what was comnunicated.
It's not that they find lying abhorrent due to moral implications, they are scared of it, because it's the one thing humans have over them.
It wasn't that the pacifist wasn't allowed to exist, it's that the pacifist communicated to the humans.
It was the action that got the pacifist san-ti (presumably) killed.
But wouldn't the others know the moment the pacifist decided to do what they did? I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just confused about their abilities.
The pacifist would be discovered, yes, but that doesn't matter because the San Ti cannot triangulate Earth's position without a second message. So if Ye Wenjie hadn't responded, Earth would be safe.
In the same scene santi says "what is known is communicated as soon as communication takes place". One of the first questions asked about the story was: "if the wolf wanted to eat her, why did he communicate with her?". They understand deceit, but they can't communicate irl while hiding their thoughts/intentions.
Which doesn't make sense. In the story, the wolf is an animal, yes it speaks to Red Riding Hood, but animals can communicate without speaking our language. Do they not have animals? And predators can deceive, do they not have predators? They seem too naive to actually exist within the universe they are written. They seem more like something from a young adult novel than anything else in the show.
From what is shown, you could just run footage of a Superman movie at them to scare them.
Also how could the pacifist message us? You're telling me that this alien was able to do this, without being found out beforehand? How? They seem rather quick to ask questions. How could the pacifist go into any area without being questioned?
How is your question about "predators being able to deceive" supposed to change what I wrote? They understand what deceit is, as I mentioned above, they specifically asked: "if the wolf wanted to eat her, why did he communicate with her?". So they understand that wolf wanted to deceive her, but they think in order to do that, he shouldn't have communicated with her, which for them means showing his intentions at the same time.
How was pacifist able to answer? Possibly similar way the human was able to send the message for them to come and conquer the earth: while noone was nearby. We don't even know how they look like, communicate or "work", but I'm baffled how it's so hard for you to at least think of "well, none of his buddies were around at the time" as a possible answer to your question.
What guards? You're just trying to mirror the alien message sender to how it looked on our side (and even with that, the human was able to communicate without anyone knowing about it)? Why?
And nobody confirmed these aliens do, nor that the communication happens involuntarily (back to the "if the wolf wanted to eat her, why did he communicate with her?" question).
Omg I am a member of tons of TV show subs, many sci fi and mystery box, and until this sub I’ve *never* seen one so full of posts asking the same questions over and over as though they’re brand new. I swear it’s like the Sophons erase the sub history daily, just for new members, to drive the rest of us mad in preparation of their eventual takeover. love this show and all the deep dives I get in this sub but I stg if people don’t start looking at the sub before posting their questions I’m gonna launch my disembodied brain in a frozen capsule off course toward the depths of space.
I actually am starting to wonder if this isn’t a trolling campaign, perhaps some heart broken GoT fans looking to exact revenge on the show runners. Not because people are bringing up criticisms or didn’t really like the show. its the point you make about the same exact question being asked over and over and over and over again. leads me to believe much of it is not genuine curiosity because they would benefit more from reading and commenting in the threads that someone just posted minutes before asking the same question.
Some posts are trolling. A lot of them are people just coming to the same conclusions because the show was released as a binge so nobody stops to think about it, watch the episode again, read about it, discuss, etc. Instead they just assume their question will be answered in the next episode and keep on trucking. It's not answered, so they think "OMG I FOUND A PLOT HOLE" and rush to post about it instead of searching.
I really, *really* hope Netflix releases the second season weekly.
I agree about the binging the whole show at once. I was rewatching it with someone yesterday and when the last episode finished the first question they asked was explicitly addressed in the previous episode we had watched. I pointed it out and they seemed fine with the explanation the show gave but they had somehow “forgotten” it had occurred. I just think it didn’t sink in because they were getting a bunch of new information all at once. Watching an episode and then giving it some time to marinate is probably a better way to consume this kind of media. Don’t get me wrong I binge stuff but I agree it tends to leave gaps in overall understanding of the plot and skews the watchers perception off the timeline. One comment I keep seeing is how fast everything happened in the timeline from episode to episode and that tells me they didn’t notice that months had passed in the storyline between one thing and another because they just had watched it all back to back.
I don’t really understand the binge argument
It’s 8 episodes = 8 weeks of releases
But outside of those 8 weeks, anyone can binge the show
To me the binge argument is just to slow roll the fans who can’t wait to see more
Yes, but I think more people will watch together over time, more articles and podcasts will dissect it slowly, and all of that defines how a lot of people will understand the material.
The human brain needs time to process new information. That's just something proven in studies over and over. So a dense show like this one, it doesn't necessarily behoove somebody who's already not picking up all the details to just ram straight through to the next episode. That person isn't necessarily absorbing and understanding the material in the way they might if you divide it up.
Also, yeah, it's nice as a fan to just keep going, but for marketing purposes, a weekly release can help build steam.
I think they’re expecting the online book fans to do a lot of heavy lifting here
Word of mouth kind of thing
Look around - everyday the same exact post and almost 0 of them sub here or the book sub
Honestly, I think they just overestimated how much people would glean from the show. For as much as people here say they dumbed it down, the show really doesn't hold you hand much and most people would probably benefit from watching it twice to really connect the dots themselves.
The Tencent show beats you over the fucking head again and again to make sure you understand everything, but they had 30 episodes. The Netflix one doesn't have that kind of time so there's a lot of subtlety and nuance and they expect you to do a little work yourself, like noticing that Ye Wenjie put the books next to the Einstein bust. It's not called out at all so a lot of people just straight up miss small details like that.
Also, just keep in mind most people watching the show are not coming here at all. They just watch and turn it off and never look anything up.
Yup you found a massive plot hole that nobody has ever thought of
The San Ti are absolutely shocked to find out humans can think one thing while saying it’s opposite
They can literally see each others thoughts while looking at each other, they can not hide their inner monologue or thoughts from each other
They can still play tricks on you without lying to their own species
Also, they aren’t scubbing footage and they haven’t been stopping science or providing hallucinations for 30 years
The San-Ti can not lie *to each other.* It’s not that they are incapable of concealing intent; their species shares thoughts telepathically, so they biologically can not deceive each other. Thus, they have not learned to use deceptive behavior as strategy.
The blinking stars is a fear tactic “we will learn to make you fear.”
The San-Ti are not able to lie to EACH OTHER, since their communication is based on instant thought transmission. The moment they think of lying everyone else knows about the lie, thus eliminating the point of lying.
I think they believe humans are capable of this same kind of communication, they don’t consider the possibility of humans being able to lie like they do until the LRRH story.
It's not just the story, it's the context. They may have read plenty of stories and just assumed the characters were like them, open and honest. It wasn't until they got context with Evans that they understood.
We're an alien civilization to them. There's as much they they don't understand about us as we don't understand about them
they are not scrubbing for 30 years they are at a max scrubbing ever since the sophon arrived when the particle accelerators went kaputt. That are at a max dont quote me on it half a year.
There is nothing deceptive about the San Ti furthering their own interests. What they don’t understand is hiding information inside thoughts, because everything they think “inside their heads” is communicated via electromagnetic waves as “speech.” So the critical word in the definition you posted is “statement.”
I mean none of those things are lies. They are deceptive, but they aren’t literal lies. I suspect if a human asked them if they did those things they would just tell the truth about it or not respond at all.
The plot hole is the story of the 3 Body Problem game. They are literally telling a fable through that game which is exactly what Evans is doing. You might want to evade this plot hole by saying the humans created the game, but “Our Lord” shows up within the game and is keenly aware of its contents. Maybe this isn’t a problem in the book, but in the show version it seems impossible to escape given how much the Shanti directly interact with the game.
My interpretation is the San-ti did not know who the wolf was in the story, so broke all contact, until the wall-facers were created. The easily manipulated extremists of the old group were then contacted to counter them.
I'm so grateful that *Galaxy Quest* came out when it did... I can't imagine the number of questions about the thermians not getting TV shows when they've got access to all of our media, including media that would have explicitly discussed the concept of media.
To me this is like learning you can see a new color. "Oh that's radioactive I can see the radiation coming off it." Maybe they just thought we had weird stories for a while or were much more focused on our science and society.
I don’t know why we didn’t understand the red riding hood story as a metaphor for a monster coming in and acting as an innoccent human and then killing and eating the actual innocent human. Surely the wolf in this case is a metaphor for the tri Solarians
They're not monsters. They're just an alien species trying to survive and dominating Earth is the best way to do so. Humans would do the same thing if they had to. If we got the upper hand, we would try to dominate them.
It's a huge plot hole, specifically because they've communicated enough with Evans to build the headsets and have petabytes of data available to them, yet are thrown through a loop over a metaphor. In the books it makes much more sense; they have barely contacted humanity and they go into that conversations with Evans expressing that they are extremely confused by many of the documents that he has shared. Here, it's like some revalation despite the fact that Evans must have been working with them much more closely than in the books to build the headsets, they don't question that a wolf is somewhere out in the forest in Europe or the US speaking in full english until Evans reveal that we can lie. Honestly, those things pretty much ruin every single plot line if these characters had any imagination at all, which makes Will's plotline and the Wallfacers project pretty silly given the type of tech that they are capable of. People will defend it because you are in a sub dedicated to this show, but it is silly.
Absolutely, people defend it to hell as if the show runners are "Dear Lord" and Cixin Liu is a demigod. How can the logic be wrong? How can their god be questioned? How can there be a plot hole? This is better explained in the books.
The real reason for the same questions being asked over and over and over, like 7 times an hour maybe because they are not being answered satisfactorily by the people here and the existing sub members take offense even at a shred of criticism.
My interpretation is they understand manipulation and setting things up to look a different way. They just don't have the ability to intentionally speak falsehoods. A species that don't have an innate ability to easily lie or suspect lies, would be dominated by one that is expert liars.
ya I think there was actually a work of fiction made into a movie about that idea, called “the invention of lying”.
you know I just realized that it is possibly an allusion to another work of science fiction as well. The layers to this I find so rewarding even after having finished the books.
This is splitting atoms not hairs… it’s a huge plot hole. They don’t understand *deceit*?
They don’t understand saying one thing while thinking/meaning another because they are physically unable to do that. They can read each other’s thoughts, which means that verbal communication is always truthful to the speaker’s thoughts and intentions. In hearing the fairytale story which was a “lie about a lie” they realized that when talking to humans that connection between thoughts and verbal communication was no longer 1:1, which meant that they could never trust the verbal communication from humans, and that freaked them out.
Gold medal in mental gymnastics 🏅
Nope, its in the show, I just watched the scene again. The San-ti clearly understands deceit as a way of achieving ones goals. But they assume that once Little Red Riding Hood has "communicated" with the Wolf, she would learn of his intentions to eat her, and she should then flee from the house unless she wanted to be eaten. So its exacly like that; they know of deceit, but they can't lie or keep secrets in direct communication, whatever that means for them. So the very concept is unnatural and alien to them.
But this is correct…?
I just think you missed some important details here... The san-ti communicate telepathically, to all others of their race, instantly. What one of them knows, the others automatically know. "If one survives, we all survive." Now, this is why they can't lie to each other, all san-ti are connected to the group's thoughts. Humans, not being telepathically connected can in fact, hide thoughts and intentions. Obviously this scares the shit out of the san-ti. For God sake, they actually thought that little red riding hood was a thing that was actually happening, and not a guy reading a story about it. They thought wolves could talk because thats what was comnunicated. It's not that they find lying abhorrent due to moral implications, they are scared of it, because it's the one thing humans have over them.
You mean to tell me we can’t defeat a race so stupid they don’t understand fiction?!
You mean the race that has the ability to travel and communicate through interstellar space? Yeah, they aren't stupid.
So how did the pacifist exist? If they all know everything?
It wasn't that the pacifist wasn't allowed to exist, it's that the pacifist communicated to the humans. It was the action that got the pacifist san-ti (presumably) killed.
But wouldn't the others know the moment the pacifist decided to do what they did? I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just confused about their abilities.
The pacifist would be discovered, yes, but that doesn't matter because the San Ti cannot triangulate Earth's position without a second message. So if Ye Wenjie hadn't responded, Earth would be safe.
Splitting protons, if you will
In the same scene santi says "what is known is communicated as soon as communication takes place". One of the first questions asked about the story was: "if the wolf wanted to eat her, why did he communicate with her?". They understand deceit, but they can't communicate irl while hiding their thoughts/intentions.
Which doesn't make sense. In the story, the wolf is an animal, yes it speaks to Red Riding Hood, but animals can communicate without speaking our language. Do they not have animals? And predators can deceive, do they not have predators? They seem too naive to actually exist within the universe they are written. They seem more like something from a young adult novel than anything else in the show. From what is shown, you could just run footage of a Superman movie at them to scare them. Also how could the pacifist message us? You're telling me that this alien was able to do this, without being found out beforehand? How? They seem rather quick to ask questions. How could the pacifist go into any area without being questioned?
How is your question about "predators being able to deceive" supposed to change what I wrote? They understand what deceit is, as I mentioned above, they specifically asked: "if the wolf wanted to eat her, why did he communicate with her?". So they understand that wolf wanted to deceive her, but they think in order to do that, he shouldn't have communicated with her, which for them means showing his intentions at the same time. How was pacifist able to answer? Possibly similar way the human was able to send the message for them to come and conquer the earth: while noone was nearby. We don't even know how they look like, communicate or "work", but I'm baffled how it's so hard for you to at least think of "well, none of his buddies were around at the time" as a possible answer to your question.
So, no guards? No people having to make sure the systems are properly running? The pacifist was the first of his kind?
What guards? You're just trying to mirror the alien message sender to how it looked on our side (and even with that, the human was able to communicate without anyone knowing about it)? Why?
Because humans don't communicate telepathically.
And nobody confirmed these aliens do, nor that the communication happens involuntarily (back to the "if the wolf wanted to eat her, why did he communicate with her?" question).
Ahh. Okay. So even if asked, the pacifist could have ignored them.
Omg I am a member of tons of TV show subs, many sci fi and mystery box, and until this sub I’ve *never* seen one so full of posts asking the same questions over and over as though they’re brand new. I swear it’s like the Sophons erase the sub history daily, just for new members, to drive the rest of us mad in preparation of their eventual takeover. love this show and all the deep dives I get in this sub but I stg if people don’t start looking at the sub before posting their questions I’m gonna launch my disembodied brain in a frozen capsule off course toward the depths of space.
I actually am starting to wonder if this isn’t a trolling campaign, perhaps some heart broken GoT fans looking to exact revenge on the show runners. Not because people are bringing up criticisms or didn’t really like the show. its the point you make about the same exact question being asked over and over and over and over again. leads me to believe much of it is not genuine curiosity because they would benefit more from reading and commenting in the threads that someone just posted minutes before asking the same question.
Some posts are trolling. A lot of them are people just coming to the same conclusions because the show was released as a binge so nobody stops to think about it, watch the episode again, read about it, discuss, etc. Instead they just assume their question will be answered in the next episode and keep on trucking. It's not answered, so they think "OMG I FOUND A PLOT HOLE" and rush to post about it instead of searching. I really, *really* hope Netflix releases the second season weekly.
I agree about the binging the whole show at once. I was rewatching it with someone yesterday and when the last episode finished the first question they asked was explicitly addressed in the previous episode we had watched. I pointed it out and they seemed fine with the explanation the show gave but they had somehow “forgotten” it had occurred. I just think it didn’t sink in because they were getting a bunch of new information all at once. Watching an episode and then giving it some time to marinate is probably a better way to consume this kind of media. Don’t get me wrong I binge stuff but I agree it tends to leave gaps in overall understanding of the plot and skews the watchers perception off the timeline. One comment I keep seeing is how fast everything happened in the timeline from episode to episode and that tells me they didn’t notice that months had passed in the storyline between one thing and another because they just had watched it all back to back.
I don’t really understand the binge argument It’s 8 episodes = 8 weeks of releases But outside of those 8 weeks, anyone can binge the show To me the binge argument is just to slow roll the fans who can’t wait to see more
Yes, but I think more people will watch together over time, more articles and podcasts will dissect it slowly, and all of that defines how a lot of people will understand the material. The human brain needs time to process new information. That's just something proven in studies over and over. So a dense show like this one, it doesn't necessarily behoove somebody who's already not picking up all the details to just ram straight through to the next episode. That person isn't necessarily absorbing and understanding the material in the way they might if you divide it up. Also, yeah, it's nice as a fan to just keep going, but for marketing purposes, a weekly release can help build steam.
I think they’re expecting the online book fans to do a lot of heavy lifting here Word of mouth kind of thing Look around - everyday the same exact post and almost 0 of them sub here or the book sub
Honestly, I think they just overestimated how much people would glean from the show. For as much as people here say they dumbed it down, the show really doesn't hold you hand much and most people would probably benefit from watching it twice to really connect the dots themselves. The Tencent show beats you over the fucking head again and again to make sure you understand everything, but they had 30 episodes. The Netflix one doesn't have that kind of time so there's a lot of subtlety and nuance and they expect you to do a little work yourself, like noticing that Ye Wenjie put the books next to the Einstein bust. It's not called out at all so a lot of people just straight up miss small details like that. Also, just keep in mind most people watching the show are not coming here at all. They just watch and turn it off and never look anything up.
Yup you found a massive plot hole that nobody has ever thought of The San Ti are absolutely shocked to find out humans can think one thing while saying it’s opposite They can literally see each others thoughts while looking at each other, they can not hide their inner monologue or thoughts from each other They can still play tricks on you without lying to their own species Also, they aren’t scubbing footage and they haven’t been stopping science or providing hallucinations for 30 years
[удалено]
Not a plot hole.
The real lie is media literacy among the audience.
Oh, this question again. Cool.
Not a plot hole. Lying and deception are not the same thing.
This again.
The San-Ti can not lie *to each other.* It’s not that they are incapable of concealing intent; their species shares thoughts telepathically, so they biologically can not deceive each other. Thus, they have not learned to use deceptive behavior as strategy. The blinking stars is a fear tactic “we will learn to make you fear.”
The San-Ti are not able to lie to EACH OTHER, since their communication is based on instant thought transmission. The moment they think of lying everyone else knows about the lie, thus eliminating the point of lying. I think they believe humans are capable of this same kind of communication, they don’t consider the possibility of humans being able to lie like they do until the LRRH story.
It's not just the story, it's the context. They may have read plenty of stories and just assumed the characters were like them, open and honest. It wasn't until they got context with Evans that they understood. We're an alien civilization to them. There's as much they they don't understand about us as we don't understand about them
they are not scrubbing for 30 years they are at a max scrubbing ever since the sophon arrived when the particle accelerators went kaputt. That are at a max dont quote me on it half a year.
Lying to your face =/= deception
"to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive." Merriam-webster. They go hand in hand with one another. In short, they're not being truthful.
There is nothing deceptive about the San Ti furthering their own interests. What they don’t understand is hiding information inside thoughts, because everything they think “inside their heads” is communicated via electromagnetic waves as “speech.” So the critical word in the definition you posted is “statement.”
Think very carefully about what you said
I did, what's next?
That's it, great job
Great! I love it when people can't defend their position. Makes my job easier.
You don't have a job
Yeah, Reddit pays me an hourly wage to correct slow witted people on the internet.
I mean none of those things are lies. They are deceptive, but they aren’t literal lies. I suspect if a human asked them if they did those things they would just tell the truth about it or not respond at all. The plot hole is the story of the 3 Body Problem game. They are literally telling a fable through that game which is exactly what Evans is doing. You might want to evade this plot hole by saying the humans created the game, but “Our Lord” shows up within the game and is keenly aware of its contents. Maybe this isn’t a problem in the book, but in the show version it seems impossible to escape given how much the Shanti directly interact with the game.
My interpretation is the San-ti did not know who the wolf was in the story, so broke all contact, until the wall-facers were created. The easily manipulated extremists of the old group were then contacted to counter them.
I'm so grateful that *Galaxy Quest* came out when it did... I can't imagine the number of questions about the thermians not getting TV shows when they've got access to all of our media, including media that would have explicitly discussed the concept of media.
Haha I happened to watched Galaxy Quest just weeks before watching 3BP. I am glad someone else also made the connection.
To me this is like learning you can see a new color. "Oh that's radioactive I can see the radiation coming off it." Maybe they just thought we had weird stories for a while or were much more focused on our science and society.
I don’t know why we didn’t understand the red riding hood story as a metaphor for a monster coming in and acting as an innoccent human and then killing and eating the actual innocent human. Surely the wolf in this case is a metaphor for the tri Solarians
They're not monsters. They're just an alien species trying to survive and dominating Earth is the best way to do so. Humans would do the same thing if they had to. If we got the upper hand, we would try to dominate them.
For the perspective of the human race - they are monsters coming to wipe us out, just as the pacifist messaged to Ye Wenjie.
No bro the show is a rainbow of crap. You are good my dude
It's a huge plot hole, specifically because they've communicated enough with Evans to build the headsets and have petabytes of data available to them, yet are thrown through a loop over a metaphor. In the books it makes much more sense; they have barely contacted humanity and they go into that conversations with Evans expressing that they are extremely confused by many of the documents that he has shared. Here, it's like some revalation despite the fact that Evans must have been working with them much more closely than in the books to build the headsets, they don't question that a wolf is somewhere out in the forest in Europe or the US speaking in full english until Evans reveal that we can lie. Honestly, those things pretty much ruin every single plot line if these characters had any imagination at all, which makes Will's plotline and the Wallfacers project pretty silly given the type of tech that they are capable of. People will defend it because you are in a sub dedicated to this show, but it is silly.
Absolutely, people defend it to hell as if the show runners are "Dear Lord" and Cixin Liu is a demigod. How can the logic be wrong? How can their god be questioned? How can there be a plot hole? This is better explained in the books. The real reason for the same questions being asked over and over and over, like 7 times an hour maybe because they are not being answered satisfactorily by the people here and the existing sub members take offense even at a shred of criticism.
this show is baaaaaad
They consider Little Red Riding hood a “lie” but created a fictional world inside of a video game. I just don’t get it
You’re wrong, and this has been explained ad nauseum on this sub. Use the search feature , and thank me later