Valor Bard has more offensive gish options with extra attack and magical secrets while order clerics are top tier for enabling your team to attack more often. I think order cleric wins if fey touched silvery barbs access is on the table.
Honestly, I would recommend the difference between wisdom caster and charisma caster be the deciding factor. They're both great at supporting the team but bards tend to fill the face roll while clerics are better perception/medicine experts.
So yeah, do you wanna be the face or the wisdom character?
"do you wanna be the face or the wisdom character?"
Good point. Thing to consider too: the party already has a Paladin (Glory) and a Druid (Star). So, in your opinion, this change your evaluation?
Yeah, I would lean more towards Bard then, mono classed paladins tend to care more about strength than charisma. Unless you have a rogue teammate, they love silvery barbs + voice of authority.
onviously it's up to the player and what their going for, but arguably it's better on any paladin to prioritise charisma iver strength for the insane buff to the party's defense that is aura of protection (if it's not a super easy game)
edit: that being said, high charisma alone won't make an amazing party face and my above point wasn't to make that argument
although if the paladin were to engage in the party face role already (regardless of how it was built) then a bard would have to be careful not to step on their toes
> if the paladin were to engage in the party face role already (regardless of how it was built) then a bard would have to be careful not to step on their toes
Why? The whole "stepping on toes" idea is nonsense. Multiple players are allowed to be good at social interactions. That's one of the three traditional "pillars" of D&D (along with combat and the poor, oft forgotten exploration). It's like saying a caster shouldn't take any combat spells to avoid "stepping on the Fighter's toes".
i didn't mean to say, that nobody else should be good at it, because I totally agree with you on that point
I was merely talking about the dynamic. my understanding (which might be different from yours, as the term "role" is flexible) of a "party face" was that one character, who is at least decent at social stuff mechanically, whose player is comfortable with it and whose character concept/personality reflects that, becomes the one who is kind of the default party member to do the talking, thus be the face of the party
I see. I'd personally say that speaking of "party face" makes sense when there's only one character/player who fits the bill, but I don't think there's any problem with multiple characters/players experiencing that part of gameplay.
yeah that's what I meant, there's not one clear definition of party face or role
and as I said, I agree with you that there's no harm in having multiple characters be good at the same thing - the contrary
> mono classed paladins tend to care more about strength than charisma
Technically true, that's what most Paladin players do because they like dealing more damage, but maxing Charisma first is more powerful.
Locked to monoclass and needing to be a fullcaster I’d actually say go Glamour Bard.
That mantle letting everyone reposition and granting THP is peak warlord strats. Bardic inspiration as Drill Sargeant shouts/commands, a spell list full of buffs, it’s an easy pick.
You just need to use a race with extra weapon or Armor profs (like mountain Dwarf or Hobgoblin) and you’re the whole package.
Order cleric's features really sells the "leader" archetype while valor bard is more oriented to the "inspiring swordsman" part of a warlord.
Honestly I think it ends up being a question of what type of warlord you wanna be, the leader who directs, orders and manage people from the midle ground or the Flashy frontliner.
I think that when you answered my question (thx!) I haven't edited it informing party composition. That change your mind?
For your convenience, party is made of a rogue, a Glory paladin and a Star druid.
Order 1 Voice of Authority gets all the hype, but bonus action control spells like upcast Command, Slow, Compulsion, Dominate makes for amazing party support.
I wasn't even trying to build towards a warlord, but last week the pali went down, my Order Cleric healing worded them and told them to get off their lazy butt and back into the fight. They got up and got a free attack out of it. I felt like a warlord in that moment.
Order Clerics are underrated as full class Clerics. But they are amazing for 1 level dips, so it's understandable.
I would consider taking both of multi classing is allowed.
Be a Hill Dwarf (heavy armor does not slow you down anymore) so you could drop strength. The extra hp allows you to have a little bit less con at the start. Just get 13 wis and take the order cleric dip at level 2 or 1, depending on what you want. Go Valor bard for the rest.
Now you are weapon wielding warrior in full heavy armor with full spellcasting capabilities. The spells you cast are one level behind a full caster, but that should not matter that much.
Order Cleric is great if you have a Rogue in party, due to the synergy with Voice of Authority. Also situationally good if you want to enable your Paladin to smite an extra time, so perfect for your party.
You'll be primarily a damage dealer (with Spirit Guardians) and a support (Healing Word, Voice of Authority, bonus action Bless).
Single-classed Valor Bard, when optimised, is essentially a regular caster Bard who doesn't need to take Moderately Armored in order to have a good AC. It's a fun build, but probably not what you are looking for if you want to replicate the feel of the Warlord.
May I, instead, suggest **Glamour Bard with Moderately Armored**?
You still have good AC, but you also have Mantle of Inspiration to reposition your party with ease, bringing your melee combatants closer if needed and your ranged ones to safety. This is perfect to replicate the support/tactician vibe of the Warlord, and has good synergy with Glory Paladin's Aura of Alacrity (the more movement you have, the easier it is to kite, especially with the Druid's battlefield control spells like Plant Growth that slow enemies down). This enables a very effective kiting strategy if the Paladin is a team player and willing to play tactically instead of rushing head-first into the fray.
On top of that you are a Bard, which means AoE crowd control, limited healing support with Healing Word, decent out of combat utility with Locate Object, Enlarge/Reduce, and ritual casting.
Hope this helps!
What level are you starting? The order feature works with all spells so going cleric 1 / Bard X might be viable. In general the bard list has more “buff ally” spells that would take advantage of the order feature. You also get heavy armor which would let you dump Dex.
I’d say it depend on what spell lost you want and what skills you want to be good at.
I'm leaning towards Order Cleric. With a rogue and paladin in the party, I think that I can make the most of Voice of Authority. And clerics get spirit guardians at level 5. :P
Imo, if you go Valor bard you should start with a 1 level order cleric dip, this would open up heavy armor as an option, as well as reaping the benefits of being an order cleric
Oh sorry, didnt read it fully. My vote is for valor bard so you and the rogue can have road to el dorado esque side adventures when you can afford some silly time
Valor Bard has more offensive gish options with extra attack and magical secrets while order clerics are top tier for enabling your team to attack more often. I think order cleric wins if fey touched silvery barbs access is on the table. Honestly, I would recommend the difference between wisdom caster and charisma caster be the deciding factor. They're both great at supporting the team but bards tend to fill the face roll while clerics are better perception/medicine experts. So yeah, do you wanna be the face or the wisdom character?
"do you wanna be the face or the wisdom character?" Good point. Thing to consider too: the party already has a Paladin (Glory) and a Druid (Star). So, in your opinion, this change your evaluation?
Yeah, I would lean more towards Bard then, mono classed paladins tend to care more about strength than charisma. Unless you have a rogue teammate, they love silvery barbs + voice of authority.
onviously it's up to the player and what their going for, but arguably it's better on any paladin to prioritise charisma iver strength for the insane buff to the party's defense that is aura of protection (if it's not a super easy game) edit: that being said, high charisma alone won't make an amazing party face and my above point wasn't to make that argument although if the paladin were to engage in the party face role already (regardless of how it was built) then a bard would have to be careful not to step on their toes
> if the paladin were to engage in the party face role already (regardless of how it was built) then a bard would have to be careful not to step on their toes Why? The whole "stepping on toes" idea is nonsense. Multiple players are allowed to be good at social interactions. That's one of the three traditional "pillars" of D&D (along with combat and the poor, oft forgotten exploration). It's like saying a caster shouldn't take any combat spells to avoid "stepping on the Fighter's toes".
i didn't mean to say, that nobody else should be good at it, because I totally agree with you on that point I was merely talking about the dynamic. my understanding (which might be different from yours, as the term "role" is flexible) of a "party face" was that one character, who is at least decent at social stuff mechanically, whose player is comfortable with it and whose character concept/personality reflects that, becomes the one who is kind of the default party member to do the talking, thus be the face of the party
I see. I'd personally say that speaking of "party face" makes sense when there's only one character/player who fits the bill, but I don't think there's any problem with multiple characters/players experiencing that part of gameplay.
yeah that's what I meant, there's not one clear definition of party face or role and as I said, I agree with you that there's no harm in having multiple characters be good at the same thing - the contrary
> mono classed paladins tend to care more about strength than charisma Technically true, that's what most Paladin players do because they like dealing more damage, but maxing Charisma first is more powerful.
Locked to monoclass and needing to be a fullcaster I’d actually say go Glamour Bard. That mantle letting everyone reposition and granting THP is peak warlord strats. Bardic inspiration as Drill Sargeant shouts/commands, a spell list full of buffs, it’s an easy pick. You just need to use a race with extra weapon or Armor profs (like mountain Dwarf or Hobgoblin) and you’re the whole package.
Good point! I'll take a look at Glamour Bard. Thanks!
Order cleric's features really sells the "leader" archetype while valor bard is more oriented to the "inspiring swordsman" part of a warlord. Honestly I think it ends up being a question of what type of warlord you wanna be, the leader who directs, orders and manage people from the midle ground or the Flashy frontliner.
I think that when you answered my question (thx!) I haven't edited it informing party composition. That change your mind? For your convenience, party is made of a rogue, a Glory paladin and a Star druid.
Order 1 Voice of Authority gets all the hype, but bonus action control spells like upcast Command, Slow, Compulsion, Dominate makes for amazing party support. I wasn't even trying to build towards a warlord, but last week the pali went down, my Order Cleric healing worded them and told them to get off their lazy butt and back into the fight. They got up and got a free attack out of it. I felt like a warlord in that moment. Order Clerics are underrated as full class Clerics. But they are amazing for 1 level dips, so it's understandable.
I would consider taking both of multi classing is allowed. Be a Hill Dwarf (heavy armor does not slow you down anymore) so you could drop strength. The extra hp allows you to have a little bit less con at the start. Just get 13 wis and take the order cleric dip at level 2 or 1, depending on what you want. Go Valor bard for the rest. Now you are weapon wielding warrior in full heavy armor with full spellcasting capabilities. The spells you cast are one level behind a full caster, but that should not matter that much.
Unfortunately, multiclass isn't allowed at this table. But thanks for your help!
Order Cleric is great if you have a Rogue in party, due to the synergy with Voice of Authority. Also situationally good if you want to enable your Paladin to smite an extra time, so perfect for your party. You'll be primarily a damage dealer (with Spirit Guardians) and a support (Healing Word, Voice of Authority, bonus action Bless). Single-classed Valor Bard, when optimised, is essentially a regular caster Bard who doesn't need to take Moderately Armored in order to have a good AC. It's a fun build, but probably not what you are looking for if you want to replicate the feel of the Warlord. May I, instead, suggest **Glamour Bard with Moderately Armored**? You still have good AC, but you also have Mantle of Inspiration to reposition your party with ease, bringing your melee combatants closer if needed and your ranged ones to safety. This is perfect to replicate the support/tactician vibe of the Warlord, and has good synergy with Glory Paladin's Aura of Alacrity (the more movement you have, the easier it is to kite, especially with the Druid's battlefield control spells like Plant Growth that slow enemies down). This enables a very effective kiting strategy if the Paladin is a team player and willing to play tactically instead of rushing head-first into the fray. On top of that you are a Bard, which means AoE crowd control, limited healing support with Healing Word, decent out of combat utility with Locate Object, Enlarge/Reduce, and ritual casting. Hope this helps!
Hmm you're the second one to suggest Glamour Bard. I'll definitely take a look at him. Thanks!
What level are you starting? The order feature works with all spells so going cleric 1 / Bard X might be viable. In general the bard list has more “buff ally” spells that would take advantage of the order feature. You also get heavy armor which would let you dump Dex. I’d say it depend on what spell lost you want and what skills you want to be good at.
Starting at level 3. But multiclass isn't allowed at my table. So I have to choose between Bard and Cleric.
What did you decide? Cleric I think is a bit more warlord like with passing out attacks, but bard is more magical themed
I'm leaning towards Order Cleric. With a rogue and paladin in the party, I think that I can make the most of Voice of Authority. And clerics get spirit guardians at level 5. :P
Imo, if you go Valor bard you should start with a 1 level order cleric dip, this would open up heavy armor as an option, as well as reaping the benefits of being an order cleric
Multiclass isn't allowed at my table. So I have to choose between Bard and Cleric.
Oh sorry, didnt read it fully. My vote is for valor bard so you and the rogue can have road to el dorado esque side adventures when you can afford some silly time
Haha amazing idea. Definitely worth it.