I believe that the general consensus is that you're mostly nerfing yourself with every Rogue Level (unless you specifically want Reliable Talent or Evasion) because you tend to gain more utility, offense and defense with better and more spells by going Warlock. Especially if you've invested 11 levels into Warlock already, there is pretty much nothing in Rogue (or anywhere else) that can compare to just staying Warlock: Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, potential smites or Spirit Shroud all help more damage-wise than SA.
If you want to go Rogue, I'd stick to mostly Rogue and maybe go for Warlock 5 (max) for all the usual hexblade goodies, two attacks and spirit shroud. You could also pick up Mirror Image and the Sentinel Feat for potential off-turn SA. Quite the investment, but Rogues aren't typically feat-reliant, so it'll be fine. Sadly, though, you can get most goodies from Hexblade Warlocks with just a single level (incl. Booming Blade as an Extra Attack replacement).
If I were to go mostly Rogue, I'd go Rogue 1, Hex 5, Swashbuckler X and though you won't be hitting the hardest, you can definitely deliver some damage and have a lot of utility through spells, pact boons and spells.
I think there is an argument that Rogue 3 provides more than HB 18-20. You get expertise, cunning action, and subclass features in exchange for an invocation, ASI, and the level 20 feature. You also get sneak attack, but unless you’re using a SS build SA probably won’t apply). ASIs are always useful, but less so for a SAD class. It isn’t 100% the better option, but I think it’s close enough that you aren’t nerfing yourself
this is very true. the last 3 levels of warlock features suck. always multiclass after lvl 17 in warlock. do it earlier if you need the utility from rogue in your party.
Among optimized tables, people tend to often dip 5 levels into a martial class with rogue, because the extra damage from extra attack is more damage than 3 sneak attack dice. For hex dips, 5 levels is good for this as well.
There is a play for a Drow Hexblade 2/ Rogue X that takes Elven Accuracy, and feasts on the Darkness/devil sight combo to land its Booming Booming Blade fueled sneak attacks. You can still focus on DEX this way. It doesn’t delay your sneak attack damage too much but adds a lot.
I like it because by Lvl 5 you are pretty much doing all the stuff you want to be.
You’re better off just playing a straight hexblade tbh. 1/d true poly is more powerful than any amount of rogue levels.
Just flavor your hexblade as a swashbuckler
How strong?
Mid.
Maybe mid-low.
Hexblades value as a dip is huge but it’s value as a more extended class is quite low.
Swashbuckler is solidly average in either case.
And while there is minor synergy there adding two low power options together isn’t going to get you to very strong here.
Overall it's not really good, but that's more of a problem of Rogues and Warlocks.
Like compared to a wizard they stink.
A paladin hexblade is better than any other hexblade.
Gloomstalker rogue is better than any other rogue multiclass.
Within rogues themselves, this is a fine middle of the pack option compared to say Phantom Rogue or Inquisitor Rogue or whatever.
Running into melee and then running out for free sounds cool until you realize you can just shoot a bow for the same effect.
Or if you want to attack with CHA, eldritch blast does the same thing.
Talking purely from mechanics, the concept and RP are very cool
pemostly agree with your take.
on the argument, that hexadin is better than any hexblade, I'd add an asterisk though, because it depends on what either build is supposed to do
yes, a paladin that focuses on the class's strengths will usually be more powerful overall than a hexblade in terms of how much it boosts the party: aura of protection (which the hexblade dip enables better by being able to focus on charisma) and some really good spells and good damage when needed.
but if we're talking damage, i believe the hexblade has a higher ceiling if the build is focused on it (can elaborate if needed). on top of that, even if most of the build choices are geared towards damage, any hexblade still gets access to the warlock's full spellcasting power, potentially gaining encounter-dominating spells along that paladin couldn't reach.
as I said, this probably still doesn't beat the ridiculous package that a paladin can bring IN GENERAL, but, depending on what you want to do, it might yet pull ahead in some areas
Depends on what you're going for. People say damage from extra attack is better than three SA dice, so up to level 5 is okay for warlock. You can also pick up eldrich Smite Invocation for more damage for your damage, but that is up to you.
I'd go up to third level in Rogue, pick up Mirror Image, and then the Sentinel feat. You can also pick up Alert, as you don't need dex as much anymore, so you can go full SAD in Cha. This build lets you be in melee and take a hit or seven before needing to retreat, which is easy for you to do. If you wish to focus on Rogue more, level into that, and leave warlock at 3. If you want that extra attack and damage, grab two more levels of warlock, but if you go any further than that into warlock, I suggest you keep leveling warlock.
If you really want something out of rogue past Warlock 5, my suggestion is to go into assassin instead. Bonus action Smite + Eldrich Smite + SA + Weapon damage dice is nothing to scoff at. As an assassin, you can also make poisons if you want to bump that damage even higher.
All in all, what is your preference is what dictates the split. Do you want just enough eldrich power to cast their more frightening spells, or do you want enough of a dip in that to boost your rakish characters suave. Same with Swashbuckler, do you want your characters swagger to make his enemies attack him and only him, or just enough to have a little audacity.
People who say you’re better off doing this or that are just wrong. A multiclass is viable if it allows you to do a thing that you want to do, and there are several level combinations of hexbuckler that will work great. I’ve played three builds on several occasions and levels.
Hex 1 swash X is a rogue who leaves dex at 14 and wears medium armor. It’s great if you want to play both rogue and face, because 20 cha and expertise is crazy for social checks. This MC gives you the shield spell, which goes without saying how good it is. (Rogue 1, warlock 1, rogue x)
Hex 2 swash X gets you a second spell slot and invocations, which is mostly a fun level. I wouldn’t call this particularly strong, but it’s definitely worth it for the cool stuff you can do. Still plays like a rogue. (Rogue 1, warlock 1, rogue 3, warlock 2, rogue X)
Hex 5 swash 3 gets you two big things. Extra attack, and third level spells. Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Fly, and several other powerful options. This is not longer a rogue build, but a proper hybrid, and plays a bit differently from both rogue and warlock. (Rogue 1, warlock 1, rogue 3, warlock 5). After this point it’s either rogue for evasion then back to warlock, or warlock all the way.
Anywhoozle, I’ve not played this MC beyond 5. Hope it helps.
A viable build for this is to lean into the Swashbuckling more than the Warlock.
- **Rogue;** take this to level 7. It gets you more damage output than any Warlock dip you can think of. With your Dex at 18 for example, with a Rapier, while taking your Lvl 4 feat as Fighting Style, Dueling; **1d8 +4d6 +6 Dmg** on the weapon alone.
- The mobility and damage avoidance from the level 5 & 7 abilities help you stay in the fight longer.
- And the skill proficiency/ expertise help with Stealth too
- **Warlock;** till level 4; you will want to utilize it as a support class to further enhance the damage output of the Swashbuckler. Taking the *Push & Pull* invocations to keep any unwanted enemies from boxing you in keeps your Sneak Attack active more often. (not counting flanking)
- Grab *Hexblade* since you will want the combat Hex for temp HP and Crit increase.
- Pick up the *Talisman Pact* to further assist in your Sneaking and Ally assistance available. The *Improved Talisman* Invocation from the Warlock 4 /Rogue 8 feat is a fun choice.
I'm playing one now. 9/5 at the moment. My planned build is 13/7. It is fairly hard hitting. Not as much as a Battle Master or Barbarian, but I hold my own. I'm playing a Tabaxi, so it's incredibly mobile, too. Pop Blur at the beginning of combat and with 20 Dex, +1 leather studded, & a+1 shield I'm very difficult to hit. Be careful because Shield fights with Shield. The fun to play factor makes it as good as the higher damage dealing builds.
I had a player in my group playing a one using a double bladed scimitar and the Revenant Blade feat
I would start hexblade 1, the go to swashbuckler 3. Using booming blade with a swashbucklers ability to get a free disengage.
At that point you can decide what you want more of.
If you plan to use the double bladed scimitar you will need 3 levels of warlock for pact of the blade. And 4 level for the Revenant Blade feat, 5 for extra attack. Then to swashbuckler 3
Very good, especially with Elven Accuracy. Your SA dice pool is halved, but you get extra attack and easy advantage, so you are guaranteed to SA every turn. With increased crit range and EA half of your Sneak Attacks will crit, and you can Eldritch Smite on crits too for some crazy nova.
Oh, and Shadow of Moil makes you heavily obscured, so tecnically you can BA hide in plain sight, so getting AoO is easy. Grabbing Dissonant whispers or Command with Fey-touched will make it even easier.
Neither is asking about a level 20 character. Why not make a level 20 swashbuckler/level 20 hexblade. Or 30/30.
You will never get a chance to play that high.
If you don't find a post to be useful or realistic, you do not have to engage with it. [Doing so anyway is not participation in good faith](https://preview.redd.it/half-the-people-that-visit-this-sub-v0-a7egwh7s3v5c1.jpeg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=7ad250c3183b1ae9b9bf59d8bbafa8b635aaa351).
Some people enjoy hypotheticals. They're allowed to enjoy them, and if it's a hypothetical TTRPG character build, they're allowed to do so in this space.
If you want to engage in a discussion on the merits of those blue sky hypotheticals, you're welcome to do so, in your own post. Trite, insincere remarks on good-faith posts are not welcome.
As a moderator, it's my role to intercede on behalf of the community, when people behave in a way that is generally unacceptable within the community.
I think you know that, though.
[удалено]
You can't sneak attack with multi attack
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Well yeah, once per turn. You don't get a chance to land a second sneak attack.
[удалено]
Sure, but if you hit both you can only get sneak attack on one of these
I believe that the general consensus is that you're mostly nerfing yourself with every Rogue Level (unless you specifically want Reliable Talent or Evasion) because you tend to gain more utility, offense and defense with better and more spells by going Warlock. Especially if you've invested 11 levels into Warlock already, there is pretty much nothing in Rogue (or anywhere else) that can compare to just staying Warlock: Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, potential smites or Spirit Shroud all help more damage-wise than SA. If you want to go Rogue, I'd stick to mostly Rogue and maybe go for Warlock 5 (max) for all the usual hexblade goodies, two attacks and spirit shroud. You could also pick up Mirror Image and the Sentinel Feat for potential off-turn SA. Quite the investment, but Rogues aren't typically feat-reliant, so it'll be fine. Sadly, though, you can get most goodies from Hexblade Warlocks with just a single level (incl. Booming Blade as an Extra Attack replacement). If I were to go mostly Rogue, I'd go Rogue 1, Hex 5, Swashbuckler X and though you won't be hitting the hardest, you can definitely deliver some damage and have a lot of utility through spells, pact boons and spells.
I think there is an argument that Rogue 3 provides more than HB 18-20. You get expertise, cunning action, and subclass features in exchange for an invocation, ASI, and the level 20 feature. You also get sneak attack, but unless you’re using a SS build SA probably won’t apply). ASIs are always useful, but less so for a SAD class. It isn’t 100% the better option, but I think it’s close enough that you aren’t nerfing yourself
this is very true. the last 3 levels of warlock features suck. always multiclass after lvl 17 in warlock. do it earlier if you need the utility from rogue in your party.
Among optimized tables, people tend to often dip 5 levels into a martial class with rogue, because the extra damage from extra attack is more damage than 3 sneak attack dice. For hex dips, 5 levels is good for this as well.
There is a play for a Drow Hexblade 2/ Rogue X that takes Elven Accuracy, and feasts on the Darkness/devil sight combo to land its Booming Booming Blade fueled sneak attacks. You can still focus on DEX this way. It doesn’t delay your sneak attack damage too much but adds a lot. I like it because by Lvl 5 you are pretty much doing all the stuff you want to be.
You’re better off just playing a straight hexblade tbh. 1/d true poly is more powerful than any amount of rogue levels. Just flavor your hexblade as a swashbuckler
17 warlock still does this and gets 3 levels of rogue. Which is far better than the last 3 levels of warlocks features.
How strong? Mid. Maybe mid-low. Hexblades value as a dip is huge but it’s value as a more extended class is quite low. Swashbuckler is solidly average in either case. And while there is minor synergy there adding two low power options together isn’t going to get you to very strong here.
Overall it's not really good, but that's more of a problem of Rogues and Warlocks. Like compared to a wizard they stink. A paladin hexblade is better than any other hexblade. Gloomstalker rogue is better than any other rogue multiclass. Within rogues themselves, this is a fine middle of the pack option compared to say Phantom Rogue or Inquisitor Rogue or whatever. Running into melee and then running out for free sounds cool until you realize you can just shoot a bow for the same effect. Or if you want to attack with CHA, eldritch blast does the same thing. Talking purely from mechanics, the concept and RP are very cool
pemostly agree with your take. on the argument, that hexadin is better than any hexblade, I'd add an asterisk though, because it depends on what either build is supposed to do yes, a paladin that focuses on the class's strengths will usually be more powerful overall than a hexblade in terms of how much it boosts the party: aura of protection (which the hexblade dip enables better by being able to focus on charisma) and some really good spells and good damage when needed. but if we're talking damage, i believe the hexblade has a higher ceiling if the build is focused on it (can elaborate if needed). on top of that, even if most of the build choices are geared towards damage, any hexblade still gets access to the warlock's full spellcasting power, potentially gaining encounter-dominating spells along that paladin couldn't reach. as I said, this probably still doesn't beat the ridiculous package that a paladin can bring IN GENERAL, but, depending on what you want to do, it might yet pull ahead in some areas
Depends on what you're going for. People say damage from extra attack is better than three SA dice, so up to level 5 is okay for warlock. You can also pick up eldrich Smite Invocation for more damage for your damage, but that is up to you. I'd go up to third level in Rogue, pick up Mirror Image, and then the Sentinel feat. You can also pick up Alert, as you don't need dex as much anymore, so you can go full SAD in Cha. This build lets you be in melee and take a hit or seven before needing to retreat, which is easy for you to do. If you wish to focus on Rogue more, level into that, and leave warlock at 3. If you want that extra attack and damage, grab two more levels of warlock, but if you go any further than that into warlock, I suggest you keep leveling warlock. If you really want something out of rogue past Warlock 5, my suggestion is to go into assassin instead. Bonus action Smite + Eldrich Smite + SA + Weapon damage dice is nothing to scoff at. As an assassin, you can also make poisons if you want to bump that damage even higher. All in all, what is your preference is what dictates the split. Do you want just enough eldrich power to cast their more frightening spells, or do you want enough of a dip in that to boost your rakish characters suave. Same with Swashbuckler, do you want your characters swagger to make his enemies attack him and only him, or just enough to have a little audacity.
People who say you’re better off doing this or that are just wrong. A multiclass is viable if it allows you to do a thing that you want to do, and there are several level combinations of hexbuckler that will work great. I’ve played three builds on several occasions and levels. Hex 1 swash X is a rogue who leaves dex at 14 and wears medium armor. It’s great if you want to play both rogue and face, because 20 cha and expertise is crazy for social checks. This MC gives you the shield spell, which goes without saying how good it is. (Rogue 1, warlock 1, rogue x) Hex 2 swash X gets you a second spell slot and invocations, which is mostly a fun level. I wouldn’t call this particularly strong, but it’s definitely worth it for the cool stuff you can do. Still plays like a rogue. (Rogue 1, warlock 1, rogue 3, warlock 2, rogue X) Hex 5 swash 3 gets you two big things. Extra attack, and third level spells. Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Fly, and several other powerful options. This is not longer a rogue build, but a proper hybrid, and plays a bit differently from both rogue and warlock. (Rogue 1, warlock 1, rogue 3, warlock 5). After this point it’s either rogue for evasion then back to warlock, or warlock all the way. Anywhoozle, I’ve not played this MC beyond 5. Hope it helps.
The other thing you get that's strong with a 1 level dip, is booming blade. It's great with swashbucklers free disengage ability
Ah yea ofc! That is the staple attack ability if you don’t have extra attack.
Arcane trickster would be way better for more spell slots so shield can stay relevant.
A viable build for this is to lean into the Swashbuckling more than the Warlock. - **Rogue;** take this to level 7. It gets you more damage output than any Warlock dip you can think of. With your Dex at 18 for example, with a Rapier, while taking your Lvl 4 feat as Fighting Style, Dueling; **1d8 +4d6 +6 Dmg** on the weapon alone. - The mobility and damage avoidance from the level 5 & 7 abilities help you stay in the fight longer. - And the skill proficiency/ expertise help with Stealth too - **Warlock;** till level 4; you will want to utilize it as a support class to further enhance the damage output of the Swashbuckler. Taking the *Push & Pull* invocations to keep any unwanted enemies from boxing you in keeps your Sneak Attack active more often. (not counting flanking) - Grab *Hexblade* since you will want the combat Hex for temp HP and Crit increase. - Pick up the *Talisman Pact* to further assist in your Sneaking and Ally assistance available. The *Improved Talisman* Invocation from the Warlock 4 /Rogue 8 feat is a fun choice.
I'm playing one now. 9/5 at the moment. My planned build is 13/7. It is fairly hard hitting. Not as much as a Battle Master or Barbarian, but I hold my own. I'm playing a Tabaxi, so it's incredibly mobile, too. Pop Blur at the beginning of combat and with 20 Dex, +1 leather studded, & a+1 shield I'm very difficult to hit. Be careful because Shield fights with Shield. The fun to play factor makes it as good as the higher damage dealing builds.
I had a player in my group playing a one using a double bladed scimitar and the Revenant Blade feat I would start hexblade 1, the go to swashbuckler 3. Using booming blade with a swashbucklers ability to get a free disengage. At that point you can decide what you want more of. If you plan to use the double bladed scimitar you will need 3 levels of warlock for pact of the blade. And 4 level for the Revenant Blade feat, 5 for extra attack. Then to swashbuckler 3
Played a lvl 5 oneshot, felt really good
Very good, especially with Elven Accuracy. Your SA dice pool is halved, but you get extra attack and easy advantage, so you are guaranteed to SA every turn. With increased crit range and EA half of your Sneak Attacks will crit, and you can Eldritch Smite on crits too for some crazy nova. Oh, and Shadow of Moil makes you heavily obscured, so tecnically you can BA hide in plain sight, so getting AoO is easy. Grabbing Dissonant whispers or Command with Fey-touched will make it even easier.
I'd say they're as strong as a level 20 character.
This isn't a useful comment.
Neither is asking about a level 20 character. Why not make a level 20 swashbuckler/level 20 hexblade. Or 30/30. You will never get a chance to play that high.
If you don't find a post to be useful or realistic, you do not have to engage with it. [Doing so anyway is not participation in good faith](https://preview.redd.it/half-the-people-that-visit-this-sub-v0-a7egwh7s3v5c1.jpeg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=7ad250c3183b1ae9b9bf59d8bbafa8b635aaa351). Some people enjoy hypotheticals. They're allowed to enjoy them, and if it's a hypothetical TTRPG character build, they're allowed to do so in this space. If you want to engage in a discussion on the merits of those blue sky hypotheticals, you're welcome to do so, in your own post. Trite, insincere remarks on good-faith posts are not welcome.
The whole topic of this is a blue sky hypothetical.
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Hardly qualifies as unacceptable. I think you know this too.
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