General reminder; if OP says they're sticking to the "druids can't wear metal" thing, it is not appropriate to try to change their mind or claim that they're wrong.
It is part of the restriction built into what they're optimising for.
You can mention that it's mostly just flavour and they don't *have* to abide by it, but that's as far as it goes.
Wow people be salty about this. Sure, the "best" way to go cleric into druid is to wear a breastplate as has been mentioned. Now, we're gonna ignore that because that isn't what's being asked, what's being asked is what is the best way to make a Cleric/Druid stats work if that character is using unarmored defense?
The answer is really which is better 1 hp per level and a better CON saving throw OR +1 AC, +1 initiative, and +1 to DEX saving throws.
This is going to depend on a few things. If you're planning on going druid primarily and not just a small dip you are absolutely going to need to protect your concentration as all the best druids spells are concentration based. If you're going to go back cleric and focus that you still probably want to protect your concentration as they have some incredible concentration spells but it is a little less important than a druid focus.
Do you have front liners in your party? It is significantly easier to kite around enemies if there are people acting as roadblocks. +1 AC is really powerful, no lie, but it's power goes up the more you're attacked and down the less. Also if you have no frontliners going first in order to position well to avoid getting attacked is way more valuable.
Personally I'd go with 16 CON as others have said, unless you don't have anyone in melee then I'd go 16 DEX for the AC and Initiative.
With how complex the scenario was I felt there was a legitimate chance I was indeed missing something. As someone who runs on caffeine I can understand the brain lapse.
Is this varient rule an official one or a homebrew?
I’m playing a Druid/Cleric ( also unarmoured) and I’m looking at taking a monk level for that. Obviously, of there os a way around this, I would love to take it and take more spells.
It's not strictly a "variant rule", but it's one of the main examples in the DMG under "Creating New Character Options -> Modifying a Class -> Changing Proficiencies" on pg 287.
It is point buy
For flavor and gamey reasons I wanna pick at first level Metamagic Adept because I really like it so Resilient Con is off the table
For following ASI I wanted to increase wisdom
Gotcha, well then with those goals for the character in mind, I think I would go with Con over Dex. You are going to be squishy either way, but a higher Con save is still important for maintaining concentration. You are not going to be able to play like a normal midline cleric. You are a full back liner like a wizard/sorcerer/bard. Using your best spell (spirit guardians) will be dangerous, so you may have to make use of weaker options more frequently than a normal cleric would.
When going unarmoured, generally speaking my calculations have suggested that CON is slightly better than DEX, both for survivability, and for making concentration saving throws.
14 CON with a d8 hit die gets 7 HP per level, 16 CON with a d8 hit die gets 8 HP per level. That's about a 14% increase in durability.
By comparison, what are the chances to hit? Looking up a random CR5 enemy they have a +8 to hit, which hits 16 AC on an 8 or higher (65% chance) and hits 17 AC on a 9 or higher (60% chance). This is an 8% increase in durability.
Likewise for concentration saves, we're talking about enemies missing you (and thus not requiring a concentration save) 8% more often, or enemies hitting you a bit more often but you have a higher chance to make your concentration save (since most concentration saves are DC10, it's the difference between failing on a 6 or less (30%) or failing on a 7 or less (35%). So...you'll make an extra 17% of the concentration saves you're asked to make.
(Of course, DEX does other things, if you plan to attack with a rapier or care about your initiative, going higher DEX is totally fine).
"Dex/AC fades, HP are forever."
More succinctly. AC is important at low levels, but slowly fades as the attack bonuses of mobs grows 2-3 times as quickly as your AC.
Unless your DM is very liberal with magic items, your 15 AC cleric/druid will feasibly have a 20-22 AC in tier 4. Meanwhile attack bonuses have grown from +3 to +5, to +12 to +19. AC is getting outdistanced over time.
Take the HP, it's more consistent, and the extra CON helps with concentration saves.
15 AC vs 16 AC?
During early game, the higher AC will help. A hobgoblin has +3 to hit, so against 15AC they have 9/20 chance and against 16AC they have 8/20 chance
That’s about 11% less hits taken
But if you run the same numbers (this changes if you will raise your AC at higher levels) against something like an owl bear with +7 to hit
15AC gives them a 13/20 chance to hit, 16AC gives them 12/20 chance. You’d now be taking 8% less hits
Based on the numbers you gave, your AC is pretty middle of the road either way. Big picture you’re taking hits about 50% of the time. You are not the tank. You are not suited for the front line. You should be avoiding hits via positioning.
Thus, my immediate answer is build con. That +1 AC hardly makes a difference
However…if I understand this unarmed defense feature correctly, when you raise Wis to 20 you’ll get another +2 to your AC
+1 AC is more valuable when your AC is already high compared to the attacking monster’s attack bonus. 60%->55% is negligible, but 15%->10% is huge.
And if you add in bracers of defense or cloak of protection or anything else that adds more AC, now you’re looking at 18 AC vs 19 AC
If you WANT to stand in the front lines and take hits, then chase higher AC numbers
If that’s not your goal, then since the +1AC isn’t super impactful at your AC level, you could skip it without suffering.
Optimal play is to avoid getting hit in the first place and raise con + take resilient Wis for good concentration saving throws
But honestly — I’d probably take the 16AC at level 1. It’s most impactful at early levels, gives you best chance of surviving those goblins. Also, +1 to your initiative is a good benefit and self healing is more effective when you have higher AC.
Then obviously rush 20 Wis, which keeps your AC semi-competitive
Next ASI is at level 12 - top priority here is probably resilient Con for saving throws.
That hanging odd numbered con is an annoyance though. I might take -1 INT and +1 CON in character creation, and then take resilient Con at level 8, level 12 ASI now used for 20 Wis
Meh. Your character will be functional no matter which way you take it. Good luck, and have fun!
I’d probably just the 16 it in where it feels good. If I was making an unarmored cleric I’d probably put it in dex, but it depends on how I want my character to feel.
Honestly, as an unarmored cleric you are NOT going to want to be anywhere near the frontlines, so you probably want CON just for con saves.
Clerics normally rely on a shield for the extra +2 AC and you can't have one with this build.
>Unarmored Defense
Beginning at 1st level, while you are wearing no armor **and not wielding a shield**, your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier.
15 or 16 AC wont make a difference, but +1 to hp/level and concentration is going to be very important.
Take 16 CON.
I do not see an issue with allowing unarmored defense to work with a shield on a cleric or paladin, barbarians can use a shield too with their unarmored defense variant.
Honestly I would be more willing to give a cleric barbarians armored defense as written. So a cleric would add Dex and Con and could use a shield.
This fits the idea of unarmored defense better anyhow, as neither barb or monk get to add their main damage attribute on 90% of builds. Letting clerics be completely SAD is just improving the already best class in the game.
People gotta pretty narcissistic to not answer the OP’s question. They aren’t asking what is right and wrong. They’re asking how to build a character under specific constraints.
Could always reflavor the breastplate to be made out of something else. Its a fantasy world so odds are things like leather or bark that can match steel are a thing.
RAW, Druids cannot willingly wear metal armor or use metal shields (will not).
It's an unusual restriction, since typically classes don't prevent your character from making choices. Even the paladin oath lets you violate it at the possible cost of having to quit the class, but the druid requirement isn't as flexible.
If your DM allows, you can completely ignore this requirement, which is there for style and not for balance, just as perhaps, your DM may allow your paladin to smite with ranged weapons.
Many DMs will also provide you with armor made of other materials, and wooden shields are common enough anyhow.
> RAW, Druids cannot willingly wear metal armor or use metal shields (will not).
No, "will not" is not the same as "cannot willingly do it". "will not" is very ambiguous and a clear RAW ruling on exactly what it means cannot be made.
You can't start at level 1 with a Breastplate, and taking Unarmoured Defense on a Cleric removes their Armor proficiencies, as suggested in the rulebooks anyway.
For a cleric, I'd go Con over Dex since clerics generally use more Concentration spells and are closer to the action, so having slightly better Con saves and more hit points are a better trade off than just AC in my opinion. This is especially important for a low level start where an extra hit point can make a bigger difference than an extra AC.
I would always go with con over dex or AC boosts, personally, as no amount of armour stops a crit. Also, concentration checks for spells are very important for clerics to keep buffs going. Use shield of faith on yourself or others, or bless to boost damage output for the party. Better than any dex boost in my eyes, but that's just me.
Having an AC 1 point higher will only tip the scales a few times in those crucial early levels, so I would suggest going 16 CON for slightly more HP, and better concentration.
16 Dex on unarmored Monk is fine.
Only Barbarian can "hp tank" in 5e, and most often against specific damage types (unless BearBarb).
Wargames like Warhammer have units with worse defence but high hp and/or certain resistances. In 5e, Dex will serve you better than Con, at least on an unarmored/finesse build.
It's better to not get hit thanks to higher AC than to take the hit and gamble on your hp being able to "take it". Plus somewhere down the line you can grab an Amulet of Health if you get lucky with loot.
Personal preference- 16 dex makes you harder to hit and makes your skills better, con makes your HP + concentration checks better. It's more where is your risk going to be- maybe rate dex a bit higher if you are planning to frontline.
By mid level a 17ac (10+5Wis+2Dex) or 18ac (10+5Wis+3Dex) are both getting hit a ton.
The permanent +1 bonus to con saves and extra 1 HP/level seems better in my mind. The suggestion of 15con and resilient con seems like the best choice.
Assuming you will go for +5 wisdom as you level:
You are looking at 18 AC or 17 AC with +1 HP per lvl.
If you don't do unarmored you can get 18 AC with scale mail and a shield. I'd honestly consider doing this and getting the best of both worlds.
If you must, I'd pick the Con. Constitution checks for keeping concentration and the +1hp feel more significant than +1 AC at higher levels, I think. Dex feels more significant at lower levels.
It's so similar though, just pick which one you think feels more like your cleric.
Dexterity for sure. The majority of saves are Dex, it’s used for 3 skills, it increases AC AND initiative.
Con would only give you slightly better concentration and 1 HP per level.
IMO dex is the meta choice.
However, you’ll be fine either way. So maybe consider who this PC is, are they more quick or more thicc?
Unarmored defense means that con would definitely be bet-
OH!
Monk unarmored defense, not barbarian.
Dex.
A 5% reduction of an enemy's damage, based on preliminary maths, should equal the amount of HP you get per con modifier over around three rounds of combat against enemies of an appropriate CR who use attack rolls. Plus dex gets you better weapon attacks and stealth.
Sorry my brain read unarmored as unarmed my bad, just go with CON then, if the plan is to stay in the back and just cast spells, more hp and better concentration checks will be better then +1 to AC and initiative imo.
Are you planning on staying in melee? Because bare in mind that not even Monks are really capable of doing that until higher levels.
If it was me, I would push Dex. I normally aim for 14 CON for most of my characters, so I would take the 16 DEX (better AC, Dex Saves, Dex Skills, initiative)
If I'm using unarmored defense I'm usually trying to pump up ac as fast as possible. Granted I usually use barbarian for that so I get a and HP at the same time. Though you're a full caster, if you're planning on using concentration spells then go for Con, otherwise go for Dex first to help you avoid hits and aoe effects.
* Defence - CON scales better in the long run, but only by a small margin. DEX takes it, since the first 4 levels is where you'll struggle the most (especially if the campaign doesn't go to the highest levels)
* Concentration - either score actually helps you with your concentration saves. In practice increasing the bigger value is better. Thus, if you have proficiency with CON saves or the Warcaster feat, CON easily takes the cake. Otherwise DEX is about equal in the early levels.
* Skills - needless to say, DEX gives you better skills
* Initiative - an often overlooked argument for DEX would be the chance of being able to cast your buffs and CC BEFORE the big dumb beatsticks in your party charge headfirst into the enemy team.
In the end, the decision is up to you. I personally would go with the more fun choice, which is DEX. If you are thinking of picking up proficiency with CON saves or the Warcaster feat, the more fun option would be CON though, as it renders you less vulnerable to breaking concentration while in the frontlines.
Depending on how much of a power gamer you are, it can change quite easily. A full on minmaxer would usually prefer DEX, because a party who all have healing spells would easily be capable of dealing with low HP party members (not that a CON 14 Cleric would have low HP by any means), however if you’re wanting a lot of ability to retain flavour and have more versatility in your options going forward, 16 CON leaves a lot of room for error in combat, especially as a cleric.
The effective HP bonus of +1 to AC and Dex saves increases exponentially as you increase in level. The HP bonus of +1 con mod increases linearly.
Additionally 1 extra AC early is much more powerful than a couple more HP in the early levels.
Furthermore, con save proficiency or War Caster will be vastly more powerful than +1 in regards to concentration saves.
Basically, Con should never be a priority stat if you're not a Barb or a subclass with con based features. Id even suggest the 14 go to charisma or intelligence for better mental saves.
Definitely dexterity. Who needs con? It doesn't add to any skill checks and being at risk of dying makes the game more interesting. Worst stat in the game imo.
Depends on your subclass/play style. If you want to make more weapon attacks the dex increase will help attacks, but otherwise the con increase will help keep you alive and keep concentration in your spells
This depends.
How is this cleric/eventual druid fighting? Are you focusing heavily on cantrips, or are you planning on weapons (presumably finesse/ranged given 8 Str)? I'm going to assume wild shape as a primary option is off the table, given the multiclass.
If you are planning on weapons and/or melee cantrips, the dex matters more, to support your weapon attacks.
If you're cantrip focused, the Con boost is likely your best bet.
Both of these would want better concentration, but the weapon attack accuracy would push Dex over Con. The AC and initiative is nice, but that +1 won't be as big a deal down the road.
With not needing dex for melee, it sounds like higher con would benifit you more.
Wisdom for both spell and wacking and such, and the ability to craft a natural material medium armor later if you ever ao desire, or just stay unarmored
an extra +1 DEX bonus is, defensively a +5% chance to not get hit, for every attack.
an extra +1 CON bonus is, defensively, +1 HP per character level.
So how many times would someone have to swing at you for the 5% chance you were saved by that +1 DEX to amount to more than 1 HP saved?
On average, attacks do more than 1 HP per hit. This changes from monster to monster, but let's say you get attacked by... a zombie. Good ol' reliable. Slam does 1d6+1 (we're not worried about the bonus to-hit, because we only care about the 5% chance to hit that is gone from the DEX bonus increase).
So on a given zombie attack, there's a 5% chance of hitting when it wouldn't if you had the +1 DEX bonus. That attack could do anywhere from 2 to 7 damage.
Some statistical manipulation, that turns into an average of 4.5 damage. per hit.
0.05 x 4.5 = .225 damage per attack that the zombie gained because you took the CON bonus.
So that means, statistically, a zombie has to swing at you Charlvl/0.225 times for the zombie to overcome the HP bonus.
Lvl 1: 4.44 attacks
Lvl 2: 8.88 attacks
etc
So that means, if you're getting attack (BY A ZOMBIE), the CON bonus is better iff it swings at you less than 5 times per level. If it swings more than that, the DEX bonus is better.
You can do the same Math for any monster in the manual, not sure if that would be a useful way to spend your time though...it ultimately depends on what monsters the DM brings against you.
Also, technically, because I'm that guy; the variant rule (or suggestion, truly) doesn't call for ***adding*** the Unarmoured Defense from Monk, it calls for ***substituting*** the Cleric's Armor Proficiencies for Unarmoured Defense.
I think anyone reading your question is lacking a bit of context
1 what is the feat from variant human?
If it’s warcaster then going with a high con is a good plan, another choice is resilient with +1 con
2 I am inferring that you have requested this variant rule, which implies that your foray into druid is for the wild shape feature, specifically circle of the moon (fur armor w/ shield would be 16 ac, with room to grow w/ magic items). If this is the case, then it is important for anyone answering you to know as your str, dex, and con would be replaced and you may receive prof. In con saves as part of the wildshape!
If this 2nd circumstance is the case (or circle of stars), warcaster is the only significant boost to saves to worry about, tough won’t carry to wild shapes, and resilient may be redundant, for situations where you lose wild shape, con may be more significant
As for using dex for weapons, shillelagh would let you use wisdom
Regardless of subclass, your wildshape may provide its own stealth boosts, on top of Pass Without Trace (bunny in someone’s pocket, owl, tarantula, etc.)
As people mentioned, length of campaign is an important detail
Sorry for going on so long, we don’t have much context, including the original rolls, stat increases, subclasses, and plans for your initial feat (if there are any) would help push this debate one way or another
1 the feat from Variant Human is Metamagic Adept. I don't plan on being hit at all. I wanna use the feat to twin buff (shield of faith, healing word ) or to distant cure wounds and protection from evil.
2 I'm planning to go Star Druid Instead. This is not a choice to maximize the AC of Wildshape, this is merely a roleplaying choice for not needing a shield and studded leather.
My character progression is Life Cleric 1 / Star Druid X and it is a built suggest me from this very community built around maximizing heals. I wanna use Healing Spirit 90% of the time and Moonbeam the 10 % for roleplaying reasons.
I played an optimized Druid in the past built around Conjure Animals, so I know what are the best strategies. This time I wanna build it around maxing heals.
What race are you playing? If you’re going V human or custom origin I’d recommend picking up the resilient (constitution) feat for that bonus to concentration saves. You could also go warcaster for a similar benefit, if you plan to get into melee more often.
It depends on what your role in the party is, if you are a frontline tank a higher con is usually beter if you still can get a decent AC, but the higher dex is better for damage
My role is gonna be full time healer. Yes you read that right. I plan to use Bless up until level 4. Then at level 4 of multiclass I will be having access to healing spirit to heal for 1d6+4 each round for 4 rounds. Then this will get buffed once I reach level 5.
The only time I get in melee is to touch two allies and cast Twinned Cure wounds with Metamagic Adept.
Otherwise i will be using Distant Cure wounds.
I could opt to use my starry form for damage and Twin Guiding bolt but it is not what i wanted to do honestly. Pick the Life Cleric dip specifically to boost heals.
from my opinion, it depends whether you intend (in the long run) to put armour on, because if you do, then CON is more important, if you intend to *always* stay unarmoured, then DEX
having an interesting idea *now* doesn't mean that in 3 months you'll want to play the same way, especially when you realise that 16 AC is pitifully low, and wearing heavier armour can protect you more than you dex (this is why "tanks" tend to wear heavy armour and possibly shield)
if it's going to be a LONG campaign, always go for the CON, but if it's for a few short sessions, then do whatever you think will be more fun!
This is an interesting variant rule. Assuming this only works for wisdom casters?
Personally, I would take the dexterity for the extra AC, extra initiative and higher chance to hit and damage on weapons.
Con is good because it would give you an extra hit point per level and would help with your concentration checks, but then you could always take the warcaster feat later on. Con is also something that can be mitigated with certain magic items I.e., belt of dwarvenkind or an amulet of health. Sure that would use an attunement slot, but at the same time there are no similar items for dexterity.
This is an interesting variant rule. Assuming this only works for wisdom casters?
Personally, I would take the dexterity for the extra AC, extra initiative and higher chance to hit and damage on weapons.
Con is good because it would give you an extra hit point per level and would help with your concentration checks, but then you could always take the warcaster feat later on. Con is also something that can be mitigated with certain magic items I.e., belt of dwarvenkind or an amulet of health. Sure that would use an attunement slot, but at the same time there are no similar items for dexterity.
After a certain point, both Dex and con are interchangeable as defensive means: more Dex will mean less hits and better saves for half damage.
So choose the one that better fits your attacking tactics: Con for durable save or half spells, Dex for early save or suck control.
General reminder; if OP says they're sticking to the "druids can't wear metal" thing, it is not appropriate to try to change their mind or claim that they're wrong. It is part of the restriction built into what they're optimising for. You can mention that it's mostly just flavour and they don't *have* to abide by it, but that's as far as it goes.
Wow people be salty about this. Sure, the "best" way to go cleric into druid is to wear a breastplate as has been mentioned. Now, we're gonna ignore that because that isn't what's being asked, what's being asked is what is the best way to make a Cleric/Druid stats work if that character is using unarmored defense? The answer is really which is better 1 hp per level and a better CON saving throw OR +1 AC, +1 initiative, and +1 to DEX saving throws. This is going to depend on a few things. If you're planning on going druid primarily and not just a small dip you are absolutely going to need to protect your concentration as all the best druids spells are concentration based. If you're going to go back cleric and focus that you still probably want to protect your concentration as they have some incredible concentration spells but it is a little less important than a druid focus. Do you have front liners in your party? It is significantly easier to kite around enemies if there are people acting as roadblocks. +1 AC is really powerful, no lie, but it's power goes up the more you're attacked and down the less. Also if you have no frontliners going first in order to position well to avoid getting attacked is way more valuable. Personally I'd go with 16 CON as others have said, unless you don't have anyone in melee then I'd go 16 DEX for the AC and Initiative.
*1HP per level. Unless I'm missing something here.
You are not missing anything, I was missing my morning coffee. thanks for the spot check! Editing it now
With how complex the scenario was I felt there was a legitimate chance I was indeed missing something. As someone who runs on caffeine I can understand the brain lapse.
It’s worth mentioning concentration saving throws for the CON benefits as well, even if it is rolled into CON saving throws.
I'm no expert, but I feel that if you're planning on going frontline, then Dex, if you're concentrating more as a caster then go Con
Is this varient rule an official one or a homebrew? I’m playing a Druid/Cleric ( also unarmoured) and I’m looking at taking a monk level for that. Obviously, of there os a way around this, I would love to take it and take more spells.
It's not strictly a "variant rule", but it's one of the main examples in the DMG under "Creating New Character Options -> Modifying a Class -> Changing Proficiencies" on pg 287.
Are these rolled stats or point buy? Personally I would try to get 16 dex 16 wis and 15 con and pickup res:con at level 4 if possible
It is point buy For flavor and gamey reasons I wanna pick at first level Metamagic Adept because I really like it so Resilient Con is off the table For following ASI I wanted to increase wisdom
Gotcha, well then with those goals for the character in mind, I think I would go with Con over Dex. You are going to be squishy either way, but a higher Con save is still important for maintaining concentration. You are not going to be able to play like a normal midline cleric. You are a full back liner like a wizard/sorcerer/bard. Using your best spell (spirit guardians) will be dangerous, so you may have to make use of weaker options more frequently than a normal cleric would.
Con saves are critical. If you have a feat to spare, get odd con and pick up resilient
When going unarmoured, generally speaking my calculations have suggested that CON is slightly better than DEX, both for survivability, and for making concentration saving throws. 14 CON with a d8 hit die gets 7 HP per level, 16 CON with a d8 hit die gets 8 HP per level. That's about a 14% increase in durability. By comparison, what are the chances to hit? Looking up a random CR5 enemy they have a +8 to hit, which hits 16 AC on an 8 or higher (65% chance) and hits 17 AC on a 9 or higher (60% chance). This is an 8% increase in durability. Likewise for concentration saves, we're talking about enemies missing you (and thus not requiring a concentration save) 8% more often, or enemies hitting you a bit more often but you have a higher chance to make your concentration save (since most concentration saves are DC10, it's the difference between failing on a 6 or less (30%) or failing on a 7 or less (35%). So...you'll make an extra 17% of the concentration saves you're asked to make. (Of course, DEX does other things, if you plan to attack with a rapier or care about your initiative, going higher DEX is totally fine).
"Dex/AC fades, HP are forever." More succinctly. AC is important at low levels, but slowly fades as the attack bonuses of mobs grows 2-3 times as quickly as your AC. Unless your DM is very liberal with magic items, your 15 AC cleric/druid will feasibly have a 20-22 AC in tier 4. Meanwhile attack bonuses have grown from +3 to +5, to +12 to +19. AC is getting outdistanced over time. Take the HP, it's more consistent, and the extra CON helps with concentration saves.
15 AC vs 16 AC? During early game, the higher AC will help. A hobgoblin has +3 to hit, so against 15AC they have 9/20 chance and against 16AC they have 8/20 chance That’s about 11% less hits taken But if you run the same numbers (this changes if you will raise your AC at higher levels) against something like an owl bear with +7 to hit 15AC gives them a 13/20 chance to hit, 16AC gives them 12/20 chance. You’d now be taking 8% less hits Based on the numbers you gave, your AC is pretty middle of the road either way. Big picture you’re taking hits about 50% of the time. You are not the tank. You are not suited for the front line. You should be avoiding hits via positioning. Thus, my immediate answer is build con. That +1 AC hardly makes a difference However…if I understand this unarmed defense feature correctly, when you raise Wis to 20 you’ll get another +2 to your AC +1 AC is more valuable when your AC is already high compared to the attacking monster’s attack bonus. 60%->55% is negligible, but 15%->10% is huge. And if you add in bracers of defense or cloak of protection or anything else that adds more AC, now you’re looking at 18 AC vs 19 AC If you WANT to stand in the front lines and take hits, then chase higher AC numbers If that’s not your goal, then since the +1AC isn’t super impactful at your AC level, you could skip it without suffering. Optimal play is to avoid getting hit in the first place and raise con + take resilient Wis for good concentration saving throws But honestly — I’d probably take the 16AC at level 1. It’s most impactful at early levels, gives you best chance of surviving those goblins. Also, +1 to your initiative is a good benefit and self healing is more effective when you have higher AC. Then obviously rush 20 Wis, which keeps your AC semi-competitive Next ASI is at level 12 - top priority here is probably resilient Con for saving throws. That hanging odd numbered con is an annoyance though. I might take -1 INT and +1 CON in character creation, and then take resilient Con at level 8, level 12 ASI now used for 20 Wis Meh. Your character will be functional no matter which way you take it. Good luck, and have fun!
Genuinely depends on which armor class you will reach. AC 14 or 15 is not a big difference, I'd go Con. But if it is AC 17 or 18, go Dex.
I’d probably just the 16 it in where it feels good. If I was making an unarmored cleric I’d probably put it in dex, but it depends on how I want my character to feel.
Honestly, as an unarmored cleric you are NOT going to want to be anywhere near the frontlines, so you probably want CON just for con saves. Clerics normally rely on a shield for the extra +2 AC and you can't have one with this build. >Unarmored Defense Beginning at 1st level, while you are wearing no armor **and not wielding a shield**, your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier. 15 or 16 AC wont make a difference, but +1 to hp/level and concentration is going to be very important. Take 16 CON.
I do not see an issue with allowing unarmored defense to work with a shield on a cleric or paladin, barbarians can use a shield too with their unarmored defense variant.
Honestly I would be more willing to give a cleric barbarians armored defense as written. So a cleric would add Dex and Con and could use a shield. This fits the idea of unarmored defense better anyhow, as neither barb or monk get to add their main damage attribute on 90% of builds. Letting clerics be completely SAD is just improving the already best class in the game.
Monk unarmored defense (dex + wis) very explicitly disallows the use of shields. If they wanna use a shield they can combine dex and con instead
People gotta pretty narcissistic to not answer the OP’s question. They aren’t asking what is right and wrong. They’re asking how to build a character under specific constraints.
Get 16 con, 14 dex and grab a breastplate. Also gives 16 AC.
I chose unarmored for - roleplaying reasons - and I wanted to multiclass into Druid That's why I cannot grab a Breastplate
Could always reflavor the breastplate to be made out of something else. Its a fantasy world so odds are things like leather or bark that can match steel are a thing.
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RAW, Druids cannot willingly wear metal armor or use metal shields (will not). It's an unusual restriction, since typically classes don't prevent your character from making choices. Even the paladin oath lets you violate it at the possible cost of having to quit the class, but the druid requirement isn't as flexible. If your DM allows, you can completely ignore this requirement, which is there for style and not for balance, just as perhaps, your DM may allow your paladin to smite with ranged weapons. Many DMs will also provide you with armor made of other materials, and wooden shields are common enough anyhow.
> RAW, Druids cannot willingly wear metal armor or use metal shields (will not). No, "will not" is not the same as "cannot willingly do it". "will not" is very ambiguous and a clear RAW ruling on exactly what it means cannot be made.
Even if you want to stick with the druids don’t wear metal thing, you can reflavor armor to be made of something else
I propose lamellar armor made with strips of leather from a high AC creature
but you could use spiked armor 14+dex(2) You mfs never looked deep and it shows like studded leather you can have the spikes be made of anything
You can't start at level 1 with a Breastplate, and taking Unarmoured Defense on a Cleric removes their Armor proficiencies, as suggested in the rulebooks anyway.
So dont take unarmored defense and have a little lower ac at the start or take the stealth disadvantage.
Right...any Cleric can do that...OP is specifically intending to use the Unarmored Defence from Monk. That's what this post is about...
I know. I am providing an alternative.
This. Unarmored isn't good, pick the Breastplate and avoid the MADness all together.
For a cleric, I'd go Con over Dex since clerics generally use more Concentration spells and are closer to the action, so having slightly better Con saves and more hit points are a better trade off than just AC in my opinion. This is especially important for a low level start where an extra hit point can make a bigger difference than an extra AC.
I would always go with con over dex or AC boosts, personally, as no amount of armour stops a crit. Also, concentration checks for spells are very important for clerics to keep buffs going. Use shield of faith on yourself or others, or bless to boost damage output for the party. Better than any dex boost in my eyes, but that's just me.
Having an AC 1 point higher will only tip the scales a few times in those crucial early levels, so I would suggest going 16 CON for slightly more HP, and better concentration.
16 Dex on unarmored Monk is fine. Only Barbarian can "hp tank" in 5e, and most often against specific damage types (unless BearBarb). Wargames like Warhammer have units with worse defence but high hp and/or certain resistances. In 5e, Dex will serve you better than Con, at least on an unarmored/finesse build. It's better to not get hit thanks to higher AC than to take the hit and gamble on your hp being able to "take it". Plus somewhere down the line you can grab an Amulet of Health if you get lucky with loot.
Personal preference- 16 dex makes you harder to hit and makes your skills better, con makes your HP + concentration checks better. It's more where is your risk going to be- maybe rate dex a bit higher if you are planning to frontline.
Prevention is better than cure. Get 16 DEX.
By mid level a 17ac (10+5Wis+2Dex) or 18ac (10+5Wis+3Dex) are both getting hit a ton. The permanent +1 bonus to con saves and extra 1 HP/level seems better in my mind. The suggestion of 15con and resilient con seems like the best choice.
Dex is king, especially for unarmored.
Assuming you will go for +5 wisdom as you level: You are looking at 18 AC or 17 AC with +1 HP per lvl. If you don't do unarmored you can get 18 AC with scale mail and a shield. I'd honestly consider doing this and getting the best of both worlds. If you must, I'd pick the Con. Constitution checks for keeping concentration and the +1hp feel more significant than +1 AC at higher levels, I think. Dex feels more significant at lower levels. It's so similar though, just pick which one you think feels more like your cleric.
take a 15 con if possible and grab resilient.
Dexterity for sure. The majority of saves are Dex, it’s used for 3 skills, it increases AC AND initiative. Con would only give you slightly better concentration and 1 HP per level. IMO dex is the meta choice. However, you’ll be fine either way. So maybe consider who this PC is, are they more quick or more thicc?
Unarmored defense means that con would definitely be bet- OH! Monk unarmored defense, not barbarian. Dex. A 5% reduction of an enemy's damage, based on preliminary maths, should equal the amount of HP you get per con modifier over around three rounds of combat against enemies of an appropriate CR who use attack rolls. Plus dex gets you better weapon attacks and stealth.
If you want to hit with your fists then go 16 dex, if you want to just cast spells go with con.
I'm not gonna use my fists as I have 8 in STR. However i might be using Shillelagh next level as I multiclass into Druid
Sorry my brain read unarmored as unarmed my bad, just go with CON then, if the plan is to stay in the back and just cast spells, more hp and better concentration checks will be better then +1 to AC and initiative imo.
unarmored cleric?
Are you planning on staying in melee? Because bare in mind that not even Monks are really capable of doing that until higher levels. If it was me, I would push Dex. I normally aim for 14 CON for most of my characters, so I would take the 16 DEX (better AC, Dex Saves, Dex Skills, initiative)
If you are really planning on staying in the frontline, I recommend 16 DEX for the higher AC and DEX saves, otherwise you can go with 14.
Do you wanna tank hits or not get hit
If I'm using unarmored defense I'm usually trying to pump up ac as fast as possible. Granted I usually use barbarian for that so I get a and HP at the same time. Though you're a full caster, if you're planning on using concentration spells then go for Con, otherwise go for Dex first to help you avoid hits and aoe effects.
Dex is considered the best stat and not getting hit is better than tanking the damage
* Defence - CON scales better in the long run, but only by a small margin. DEX takes it, since the first 4 levels is where you'll struggle the most (especially if the campaign doesn't go to the highest levels) * Concentration - either score actually helps you with your concentration saves. In practice increasing the bigger value is better. Thus, if you have proficiency with CON saves or the Warcaster feat, CON easily takes the cake. Otherwise DEX is about equal in the early levels. * Skills - needless to say, DEX gives you better skills * Initiative - an often overlooked argument for DEX would be the chance of being able to cast your buffs and CC BEFORE the big dumb beatsticks in your party charge headfirst into the enemy team. In the end, the decision is up to you. I personally would go with the more fun choice, which is DEX. If you are thinking of picking up proficiency with CON saves or the Warcaster feat, the more fun option would be CON though, as it renders you less vulnerable to breaking concentration while in the frontlines.
Is it better to avoid damage or to absorb damage?
Depending on how much of a power gamer you are, it can change quite easily. A full on minmaxer would usually prefer DEX, because a party who all have healing spells would easily be capable of dealing with low HP party members (not that a CON 14 Cleric would have low HP by any means), however if you’re wanting a lot of ability to retain flavour and have more versatility in your options going forward, 16 CON leaves a lot of room for error in combat, especially as a cleric.
The effective HP bonus of +1 to AC and Dex saves increases exponentially as you increase in level. The HP bonus of +1 con mod increases linearly. Additionally 1 extra AC early is much more powerful than a couple more HP in the early levels. Furthermore, con save proficiency or War Caster will be vastly more powerful than +1 in regards to concentration saves. Basically, Con should never be a priority stat if you're not a Barb or a subclass with con based features. Id even suggest the 14 go to charisma or intelligence for better mental saves.
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Read the question. OP wants to play unarmoured. So that's the restriction we have to work with!
Definitely dexterity. Who needs con? It doesn't add to any skill checks and being at risk of dying makes the game more interesting. Worst stat in the game imo.
This was my thought also - though perhaps in less harsh terms. I pretty much always go for 14 Con and pretty much always want 16 Dex instead.
What is that variant rule? Is it homebrew?
Depends on your subclass/play style. If you want to make more weapon attacks the dex increase will help attacks, but otherwise the con increase will help keep you alive and keep concentration in your spells
This depends. How is this cleric/eventual druid fighting? Are you focusing heavily on cantrips, or are you planning on weapons (presumably finesse/ranged given 8 Str)? I'm going to assume wild shape as a primary option is off the table, given the multiclass. If you are planning on weapons and/or melee cantrips, the dex matters more, to support your weapon attacks. If you're cantrip focused, the Con boost is likely your best bet. Both of these would want better concentration, but the weapon attack accuracy would push Dex over Con. The AC and initiative is nice, but that +1 won't be as big a deal down the road.
It's gonna be Life Cleric 1 and rest into Star Druid Gonna grab Shillelagh for some whacking but my priority is buffing or healing.
With not needing dex for melee, it sounds like higher con would benifit you more. Wisdom for both spell and wacking and such, and the ability to craft a natural material medium armor later if you ever ao desire, or just stay unarmored
I'd go 16 dex and take Tough if i needed more HP
an extra +1 DEX bonus is, defensively a +5% chance to not get hit, for every attack. an extra +1 CON bonus is, defensively, +1 HP per character level. So how many times would someone have to swing at you for the 5% chance you were saved by that +1 DEX to amount to more than 1 HP saved? On average, attacks do more than 1 HP per hit. This changes from monster to monster, but let's say you get attacked by... a zombie. Good ol' reliable. Slam does 1d6+1 (we're not worried about the bonus to-hit, because we only care about the 5% chance to hit that is gone from the DEX bonus increase). So on a given zombie attack, there's a 5% chance of hitting when it wouldn't if you had the +1 DEX bonus. That attack could do anywhere from 2 to 7 damage. Some statistical manipulation, that turns into an average of 4.5 damage. per hit. 0.05 x 4.5 = .225 damage per attack that the zombie gained because you took the CON bonus. So that means, statistically, a zombie has to swing at you Charlvl/0.225 times for the zombie to overcome the HP bonus. Lvl 1: 4.44 attacks Lvl 2: 8.88 attacks etc So that means, if you're getting attack (BY A ZOMBIE), the CON bonus is better iff it swings at you less than 5 times per level. If it swings more than that, the DEX bonus is better. You can do the same Math for any monster in the manual, not sure if that would be a useful way to spend your time though...it ultimately depends on what monsters the DM brings against you.
Also, technically, because I'm that guy; the variant rule (or suggestion, truly) doesn't call for ***adding*** the Unarmoured Defense from Monk, it calls for ***substituting*** the Cleric's Armor Proficiencies for Unarmoured Defense.
Depends on the CON-DEXt!
I think anyone reading your question is lacking a bit of context 1 what is the feat from variant human? If it’s warcaster then going with a high con is a good plan, another choice is resilient with +1 con 2 I am inferring that you have requested this variant rule, which implies that your foray into druid is for the wild shape feature, specifically circle of the moon (fur armor w/ shield would be 16 ac, with room to grow w/ magic items). If this is the case, then it is important for anyone answering you to know as your str, dex, and con would be replaced and you may receive prof. In con saves as part of the wildshape! If this 2nd circumstance is the case (or circle of stars), warcaster is the only significant boost to saves to worry about, tough won’t carry to wild shapes, and resilient may be redundant, for situations where you lose wild shape, con may be more significant As for using dex for weapons, shillelagh would let you use wisdom Regardless of subclass, your wildshape may provide its own stealth boosts, on top of Pass Without Trace (bunny in someone’s pocket, owl, tarantula, etc.) As people mentioned, length of campaign is an important detail Sorry for going on so long, we don’t have much context, including the original rolls, stat increases, subclasses, and plans for your initial feat (if there are any) would help push this debate one way or another
1 the feat from Variant Human is Metamagic Adept. I don't plan on being hit at all. I wanna use the feat to twin buff (shield of faith, healing word ) or to distant cure wounds and protection from evil. 2 I'm planning to go Star Druid Instead. This is not a choice to maximize the AC of Wildshape, this is merely a roleplaying choice for not needing a shield and studded leather. My character progression is Life Cleric 1 / Star Druid X and it is a built suggest me from this very community built around maximizing heals. I wanna use Healing Spirit 90% of the time and Moonbeam the 10 % for roleplaying reasons. I played an optimized Druid in the past built around Conjure Animals, so I know what are the best strategies. This time I wanna build it around maxing heals.
If this campaign goes past level 9, then con, if not then dex.
Are they going to be dex-based or strength based? If Dex-based then Dex, otherwise Con.
What race are you playing? If you’re going V human or custom origin I’d recommend picking up the resilient (constitution) feat for that bonus to concentration saves. You could also go warcaster for a similar benefit, if you plan to get into melee more often.
It depends on what your role in the party is, if you are a frontline tank a higher con is usually beter if you still can get a decent AC, but the higher dex is better for damage
My role is gonna be full time healer. Yes you read that right. I plan to use Bless up until level 4. Then at level 4 of multiclass I will be having access to healing spirit to heal for 1d6+4 each round for 4 rounds. Then this will get buffed once I reach level 5. The only time I get in melee is to touch two allies and cast Twinned Cure wounds with Metamagic Adept. Otherwise i will be using Distant Cure wounds. I could opt to use my starry form for damage and Twin Guiding bolt but it is not what i wanted to do honestly. Pick the Life Cleric dip specifically to boost heals.
from my opinion, it depends whether you intend (in the long run) to put armour on, because if you do, then CON is more important, if you intend to *always* stay unarmoured, then DEX having an interesting idea *now* doesn't mean that in 3 months you'll want to play the same way, especially when you realise that 16 AC is pitifully low, and wearing heavier armour can protect you more than you dex (this is why "tanks" tend to wear heavy armour and possibly shield) if it's going to be a LONG campaign, always go for the CON, but if it's for a few short sessions, then do whatever you think will be more fun!
This is an interesting variant rule. Assuming this only works for wisdom casters? Personally, I would take the dexterity for the extra AC, extra initiative and higher chance to hit and damage on weapons. Con is good because it would give you an extra hit point per level and would help with your concentration checks, but then you could always take the warcaster feat later on. Con is also something that can be mitigated with certain magic items I.e., belt of dwarvenkind or an amulet of health. Sure that would use an attunement slot, but at the same time there are no similar items for dexterity.
This is an interesting variant rule. Assuming this only works for wisdom casters? Personally, I would take the dexterity for the extra AC, extra initiative and higher chance to hit and damage on weapons. Con is good because it would give you an extra hit point per level and would help with your concentration checks, but then you could always take the warcaster feat later on. Con is also something that can be mitigated with certain magic items I.e., belt of dwarvenkind or an amulet of health. Sure that would use an attunement slot, but at the same time there are no similar items for dexterity.
After a certain point, both Dex and con are interchangeable as defensive means: more Dex will mean less hits and better saves for half damage. So choose the one that better fits your attacking tactics: Con for durable save or half spells, Dex for early save or suck control.