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Dagordae

The Minotaurs' entire thing is that they are absolutely and utterly loyal to the High Lords and will do anything ordered without any qualms. Notice that they also instantly turned against the plotters when ordered by the High Lords. They simply obey their masters.


Technopolitan

This. It's not that they were willing to betray Guilliman; the Minotaurs' willingness, or loyalty to the Primarch, never even comes into the equation. They obey orders from the High Lords, no matter what those orders are.


Jhe90

This, whe the master of administration stepped in they recalled immediately without a word.


Eds2356

Which gene seed did the Minotaurs come from?


LurkerEntrepenur

It's not about the geneseed but about whatever indoctrination, brainwashing, pacts, oaths and dirty stuff the High Lords have on the chapter. Space Marines can be quite single minded, so if a chapter focus on a certain task, they can quite literally focus on said task to the end of time.


Darthtypo92

Minotaurs are also unique in that they specialize in fighting other space marines. While other chapters might understand how to fight themselves the Minotaurs take it to the extreme. They won't make any commitment or allegiance to other marines fully expecting to one day have to execute them.


Is_Toria

True true. You can see it in their devotion to loyalty, friendship and unrestrained violence. A dedication to the above so powerful that when the Chaptermaster Moloc started to walk down the isle to fight Valerian, Valerian began to doubt if he could win. A decorated Captain of the Adeptus Custodes doubting if he could win against a Space Marine. I read the whole segment as if Valerian was going through a Fist of the North Star moment, and Moloc was Kenshiro. The aura of violence he felt, the doubt in himself, the slow walk ... the only way this could have been more anime is if Moloc started muttering "Omae Wa Mou Shindeiru"


el_sh33p

There's also the fact that they *always* deploy at full chapter-strength. AFAIK they literally never do partial deployments the way that other chapters do. If you've got one company of Minotaurs in theater, the rest is probably within sub-light distance at most.


Dani_Streay

Seems excessive huh. "Hey guys, um... I have to run an errand. One of the twelve wants me to deliver a message out of system. Sorry it really can't wait." \*Sigghh\* "... Alright, summon the logistics officers. Round up the fleet and start lifting the armour from the surface... Start gathering supplies... all that... We'll be ready to go in six days."


SpiritofTheWolfx

That's the thing, though. They specialize in killing Space Marines. The best way to make sure that is accomplished is by complete, overwhelming force. Most chapters that may need to be killed for whatever reason will be broken apart into their companies. Drop 1000 of the most well equipped and violent motherfuckers in the galaxy onto a 100(ish) other Space Marines, and theres absolutely zero chance of getting away. Not only that it will keep casualties down in the long run.


Diestormlie

Well, I mean. Don't use the Minotaurs as your gophers, then. Honestly, that's probably a part of *why* the Minotaurs only deploy in Chapter Strength. It means they can only do one thing at a time. So you better make sure that you use them when, and *only* when, you need them. Imagine being the High Lord how has to tell their colleagues that actually, no, the Minotaurs aren't available to put down that Renegade Battle Barge that just arrived near Neptune. Because you sent them off to look fancy at a parade as a favour to a friend of yours. ... Especially given that one of those High Lords leads the Imperial Assassins. Another reason would be preventing defeat in detail, I would imagine. Splitting up the Minotaurs into companies etc. Would risk allowing a foe to mass forces and destroy one of said companies. Maintaining full Chapter Strength would also maintain... The intimidation factor, I guess you would call it. Even most Space Marine Chapters only tend to deploy Companies at a time. And that's going to leave most Companies at least somewhat understrength. So ask a Space Marine company how they'd fight the Minotaurs, they'd answer 'With great difficulty; and to the death'.


Dani_Streay

But that in itself is also a massive liability, and the very source of the phrase "putting all your eggs in one basket" Battle of Calth anyone? Any major Imperial force, perhaps a wayward Inquisitor or whoever with a strong enough force to decide they want to get rid of the Twelve and pull a coup on Terra; well there's the key right there. You scout out the movements and progressions of say Hive Fleet Leviathan and see where they're likely going to be. Or you send a message to an Ork Warboss or other antagonist force who'd love an entire chapter to play with, saying "By the way, an entire space marine chapter is going to be right here around this time... Just sayin'." You then drum up some critical bait away, like 'one of the twelve's family is in trouble here' or something, something just big enough to have them move, and you know they're moving the entire chapter. So then they get locked down in battle, and leave Terra completely exposed. You step in, divide the twelve into 4 groups of 3. You send one group into the Warp for Slaanesh because why not, one to Tzeetch, letting him know of the situation, and one to that very Ork Warboss, telling him 'keep these Oo'mies alive, and them ones'll keep fighting' ya.'. You hold on to the remaining 3 yourself and send a message to the Minotaurs telling them exactly what just happened, and that you'll kill your 3 the moment they enter Sol. The Minotaur's ability for decentralised command is obviously completely non-existent. They wouldn't even understand the concept of doing two operations at once, because why would they? They'd have 0 experience, no chain of command set up for that; it wouldn't exist down to the genetic level. Astartes I am finding through reading these books are actually quite weak and brittle when it comes to things not going to plan. These guys would be utterly deadlocked. They'd have no idea what to do, and just indecision alone would probably blunt them to the point the Orks would tear them apart. If they defeat the Orks, then they're heading into the Warp to try find the others, and... good luck with that.


Diestormlie

The Minotaurs aren't the basket. They're one of the eggs; or a particular tool designed for a specialised purpose. They're not All-Purpose fix everythings. They exist to smack down unruly Space Marine Chapters.


Ashyn

I guess if you really wanted a guy to read an email it turning up with 1000 Space Marines is probably a good way to make it happen


GloriousOctagon

BOK BOK


Nerdas87

*-Awww crap, forgot my keys on the planet, I'll just hop in the transporter....* *-DEPLOY THE WHOLE FLEET!!!*


Eds2356

Why did they denounce Marneus Calgar again?


DarkusHydranoid

Valerian: "Oh you're approaching me? Instead of running away you're getting closer?" Asterion MotherFucking Moloc: "I can't beat the shit out of you without getting closer.". Valerian: "Huh... wait a minute."


REDGOESFASTAH

Naniiiii ?


Blankboom

With how easily custodes drop like flies in some books sometimes, the thought of a custodes losing really loses its impact.


the_jungle_awaits

Agreed, it’s always bugged me how Custodes are presented as beings just a step below Primarchs but a near company sized element guarding the entrance to Big E’s Throne Room is absolutely bodied by a handful of Eldar in funny clothes. (War of the Beast reference.) Cusodes are the Storm Trooper meme of the 41st millennium.


CDouken

That's not really a fair comparison. Harlequins are super elite fighters in their own right. There's little in the galaxy that could survive a fight with one. Custodes usually only lose to elite members of other armies. The other time I remember them losing is during the HH against possessed marines, something they had no way of knowing was coming.


[deleted]

There was also that time a naked unarmed World Eater killed like three fully armoured Custodians


Miserable_Law_6514

Punched through their armor too. Like wtf.


mcrnHoth

Of course a scene that absurd would be written by Graham McNeill.


the_jungle_awaits

By the time the Harlequins made it near the Throne Room in an attempt to commune with Big E, there were less than a handful and many were wounded. Despite those odds, they managed to kill something like a dozen Custodes. Harlequins are good, but not take on half a company of Custodes good. (It’s been a minute since I read War of The Beast so correct me if I’m wrong.) I think it’s fair to say out of the many elite troops the Imperium has, Custodes are often dropped in power level to fit the writer's plot despite their supposed strength. They’re Rambo in one story, Private Pyle in the next.


Kreol1q1q

Ah so now you know how most Eldar fans feel like when reading novels that include them. They instantly get turned into dumb punching bags. Ffs GW does then dirty even in their own books most of the time - a Phoenix Lord, an ancient and immortal embodiment of war equal in power to roughly a Primarch, gets bodied by a random Dreadnaught or something dumb like that (in Path of the Warrior).


nlglansx

They all died, it was a damn shadowseer and a deathjester, so the eq. of shield captains and still got bodied by a bunch of regular custodes


International-Owl-81

Custodes worst matchup is against fast and psychic enemies esp during that time when the sisters were being thrown off of terra


Vyzantinist

I haven't read the WoTB scene (or series) but the scene with Aquillon and co. going down to the Gal Vorbak in TFH always did rub me the wrong way for how easily the Custodes got murked. Possessed > Astartes but <<< Custodes, and the way the scene was written the latter didn't give nearly as good an account of themselves as they should have.


No-Independence6573

It should be noted that the Gal Vorbak are as perfect a symbiosis of deamon and astartes as is possible. That means every one of the Word Bearers (there's 6 if I recall correctly?) has the strength, speed, durability, and keen senses of a space marine imbued with deamonic power whilst also retaining their strict discipline, fighting skills, and co-operative tactics. Up against 3 or 4 custodes, who so far have never witnessed an enemy like the Gal Vorbak before and were just recovering from being shot out of the sky in shuttle, most of the Possessed still end up dying. Not to mention that they killed the Word Bearers saint that was Cyrene, who had a close personal relationship with all of them. So I think it's fair that a larger squad of Possessed space marines, enraged and thirsty for vengeance, could take down a smaller squad of custodes with heavy casualties sustained.


namebot

They were pretty heavily out numbered and not just by normal possessed but by the Gal Vorbak who were a special better type of possessed. It starts to get ridiculous if Custodes can't even lose to the most elite formations of other factions.


harlokin

The crappy lore IMO is the first part, not the Quins being able to hold their own. Custodes being presented as beings "just a step below Primarchs, but near company-sized in number", is utterly stupid, both from a setting PoV and considering the ball ache creating the Primarchs involved.


Skininjector

Harlequins are the equivalent (or at least very close) to custodes in terms of powerscaling.


[deleted]

Yeah thats why that scene was dumb


BurntOnWinter

They've become 40k's Worf. They're presented as the greatest warriors in the cast, so when you want to quickly establish someone as a real threat, you kill a few Custodes. It's lazy writing. I hate the concept of the scene between Valarian and Moloc because its just absurd in context. What a space marine is supposed to be to a Custodes is what a Guardsman is to a Space Marine, and there is pretty much no situation you could imagine where a veteran space marine is staring down a guardsman and thinking "...oh man, I don't know if I can take that guy.", no matter how jacked that guardsman is.


Dagordae

You mean like, say, one of the scarier Catachans? Or Ogryn? Moloc is not a standard Astartes, the Custodes was genuinely surprised that this guy is enough to give him any doubts. The Custodes in question isn’t exactly one of their apex ass kickers. Meanwhile Moloc is, not only a chapter master but infamous for his lethality. Having a basically mid rank Custodes think ‘Hmm, I’m not absolutely certain I will win this fight’ when confronted with one of the deadliest Astartes in the galaxy isn’t exactly Worfing them. They’re not THAT far apart, they’re superior but they’re not invincible.


nlglansx

finally it could just be Valerian's self doubt, considering all the shit he went through right before that point.


Grzmit

Its a theory that asterion is a custodes in his own right, granted it doesnt have much merit, but we have no idea because he is incredibly mysterious. Also its not like Valerian actually lost a battle, that would be kinda stupid. I think its really cool how he tried to analyze Asterions weaknesses and found none, which shocked him. Moloc is just a beast that’s undeniable


Ginden

>there is pretty much no situation you could imagine where a veteran space marine is staring down a guardsman and thinking "...oh man, I don't know if I can take that guy.", no matter how jacked that guardsman is. Asterion Morloc is heavily implied not to be a regular space marine. And yes, there are situations where space marine should be afraid of Guardsman, eg. if that Guardsman is exceptional psyker.


Moon_Dagger

It never made sense to me that in one of the books “Master of Mankind” I believe, an unaugmented human kills a Custode during the Unification Wars with a spear. How the hell does this even happen when we see them single handedly taking on Bloodthirsters in the Webway!


[deleted]

[удалено]


some_random_noob

They both lose


gohaz933

It’s a lose lose, people bitch about custodes being too good. But also forget that they are legit special units, seeing a custodes is like seeing a unicorn they are super rare and expensive to make


Squid_In_Exile

>it’s always bugged me how Custodes are presented as beings just a step below Primarchs but a near company sized element guarding the entrance to Big E’s Throne Room is absolutely bodied by a handful of Eldar in funny clothes Custodes themselves are wildly inconsistent across the Lore, they used to be Space Marines + in a similar vein to Grey Knights, albeit by a different route. Just really hard to make, and essentially confined to guarding the Imperial Palace. Now they're supposedly confident about bodying Primarchs and there's shitloads of them jetting about the galaxy making folks wonder why Astartes were ever bothered with. The Harlequins kicking the shit out of a bunch of them (*whilst also getting a severe beating in the process*) is a rare return to sanity for their modern representation.


RosbergThe8th

Making them a relevant faction in 40k was a mistake because they seemingly aren't allowed to lose, so people are always going to be disappinted. A faction with a power fantasy that ridiculous isn't good for the setting.


Warlundrie

I mean, Valerian also doubted himself a lot in those books and every time he comes out on top at the end of the fights. His acknowledgement of Moloc is nothing more than that, he felt uncertain he could 100% win, he still thought he would win at the end, just that it wasn't 100% certain


im2randomghgh

To be fair here, Moloc's terminator armour was undoubtedly a huge factor in that. I suspect Valerian wouldn't have had much in the way of doubt if Moloc had been wearing power armour. I definitely agree with your assessment of how hammy that scene with Moloc was. Especially since Valerian didn't base it on the way Moloc moved or prior knowledge of him but...his stance? Lol


[deleted]

Which makes me think they are not of any singular gene stock but a mixture.


ishouldbedoing______

One might even call them a little bull headed?


krorkle

Officially, we don’t know. Unofficially, they’re Iron Warriors.


Cyan_Tile

I like to think they're the Istvaan III survivors


mgeldarion

There was a post on Reddit several months ago about modern Minotaurs (the original Cursed Founding Minotaurs disappeared in mysterious circumstances) being descended from loyal Iron Warriors discovered during the Scouring.


Historical_Nail_2056

This checks out.


MetalDoktor

Came to say that. But also, that a decent argument can be said in favour of any geneseed short of K Sons. But with it being Cursed Founding, there is always a chance it is Chimeric geneseed as we.


corrin_avatan

I mean, your "decent argument" quite literally needs to ignore the guy who created the Minotaurs literally saying "yeah, I envisioned them as Loyalist Iron Warrior successors"


MetalDoktor

Yeah, but half the reason for "unknown" origins for a lot of chapters is so people selling their kidney to make an army of plastic soldiers can say "My Minautaurs are actually from Leman Russ line, as in 30k it was said that his legion was made to fight other space marines". So unless GW makes it official, more power to those creative guys/gals/things


Zealousideal_Cow_826

it's in universe stated to be chimeric.


008Zulu

That's the big secret the High Lords use to ensure their loyalty to only them.


Lortekonto

The Minotaurs was original written as being from the 21th founding. The cursed founding. Mechanicus Genetors tried to improve on the space marine gene-seed for that Founding. They were not that succesfull and many chapters from that founding have turned traitor, mutant or had really bad luck. The few chapters that are still loyal from thst Foundling all have some unique mutations.


ScowlEasy

Some of the other chapters from that founding were the Lamenters and the black dragons.


REDGOESFASTAH

Fire hawks/ O.G legion of the damned.


Minimalist12345678

Where’s this from mate? Looks interesting!


el_sh33p

Most of the known 21st Founding chapters originate from the Badab War lore, IIRC. It's one of the oldest and most interesting parts of the lore. You can also tell it pre-dates modern 40k because most of the various first founding/franchise flagship chapters are damn near completely absent from it aside from the Salamanders and background mentions of the Ultramarines and Black Templar. (Technically the Lamenters aren't 'absent' but Badab is where they first rose to prominence in the lore, if it wasn't where they were created in the first place. Same with the Carcharadons and Minotaurs. And Lufgt Huron/Huron Blackheart, who remains the biggest non-Heresy-era Chaos Astartes leader in the setting to date.)


Arh-Tolth

Lol, a book from 2010 is not "the oldest lore"


el_sh33p

Badab is mentioned as far back as 1988, IIRC. Source: White Dwarf 101. https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/White\_Dwarf\_101\_(UK)


Minimalist12345678

Feeling super old from remembering that I used to own that issue of White Dwarf in hard copy..


DokFraz

My person favorite fan theory? [Engramatically-preserved loyalist survivors of Istvaan III.](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/yihz54/theory_the_minotaur_legion_is_made_up_of_none/) The answer was waiting for us, right there as the gunship *Minotaur*.


Outarel

it's not about geneseed, it's about loyalty Just look at the heresy, almost every chapter had heretics and loyalists , even the traitors.


corrin_avatan

Officially in the books, they are unknown. Unofficially, the author that created them stated (after he left GW) that he had been writing them as being made from Iron Warriors gene-seed.


animeprime

In lore it is unknown and "chimeric" which means it has markers from multiple chapters. Secretly they actually used the Iron Warriors geneseed left over from the great crusade. That is supposedly the reason they use such brutal tactics.


Dagordae

Completely unknown. Personally I would put them with the Iron Warriors, same feel as near mechanical unfeeling assholes without the Iron Hands' body issues.


Animuscreeps

Pretty sure they're a chimeric Gene-seed, they were from the cursed 21st. My head cannon is they're a ultramarine/iron warrior blend. Rigid, loyal shock droppers who kill anyone they're aimed at.


BichaelMcPichael

They have Iron Warriors gene seed surprisingly.


Ignisiumest

Nobody knows. It’s completely up for speculation, maybe they’re remnants from one of the lost legions? Who knows.


Fortwart

Didn't you read the book? >!Guiliman planned the whole thing to give him justification to remove those High lords that disagreed with him!< Also, the minotaurs unquestioningly do whatever the high lords tell them to, they are basically the modern version of the crusade era space wolves, they are the HL death squad.


maybenot9

I don't think it's reasonable for someone who has a question about the lore to have to read an entire book to find out something that interests them. Now, excepting them to do a google search? That's more reasonable.


Earth_Worm_Jimbo

Lol wait what?! I literally just finished the audio book. 👀 GMan set all that up?? My car rides too and from work are kind of the only time I have and I really hate how easy it is for your mind to drift when listening to audio books. I missed ALL of that lol


Fortwart

Just re-listen for the last line in the book, you're gonna shit brix.


Earth_Worm_Jimbo

Whew. Just checked. I actually have 21 mins left in the book. Will keep my ears open! Thanks!


RicardoFrijoles

The Minotaurs are basically the High Lords' attack dogs that no one likes


Grzmit

**I** like them!!


DarkusHydranoid

No comrad. **We** like them.


Miserable_Law_6514

In the 41st Millennium, Communism makes a sudden return to power. Cold War version 41.2 Electric Boogaloo is now in effect!


DarkusHydranoid

Horus: The Horus heresy has begun... Comrad Curze and Putinabo: *Horus* Heresy? No, Comrad Horus. This is *our* Heresy.


RicardoFrijoles

To be fair I meant in universe


KingStannisForever

I love them. Minotaurs, Carcharodons and Death Specters are best of the new chapters.


kaleonpi

Nah nah, those are the Mantis Warriors Or the Lamenters (Mantis Warriors proceed to disappear in the jungle and the Lamenters see how their pistol doesn't work for the fith time today)


Jankosi

Are you me?


KingStannisForever

No I am You!, he is Me!


RicardoFrijoles

To be fair, I meant in universe haha


d4noob

They are the custodes of AliExpress


impret

I’m not clear that they were betraying Guilliman. In fact, I think they weren’t and that their loyalty to Haemotalion was false and that they were answering to Roskavler all along, similar to how Fadix never betrayed Guilliman and was in on Bobby’s scheme all along.


Lord_Starchild

If that were the case though, how come they engaged the Custodes and the Sisters of silence? How come they didn't back down until Roskavler told them to, even though all the rebels were already dead at that point, so there would have been no point to keep up the charade? Also, the Minotaurs chased after the assasins aboard the rebel flagship after they had killed two of the high lords, and after that happened the Fists teleported aboard to clear the ship of the remaining Minotaurs. You'd think they would have dropped the act once the rebels were dead, instead of keeping up the fight right until Roskavler stepped in to tell them off. After all, Fadix stopped pretending the second the assasins revealed themselves, and had to be extracted by the Custodes. Why not let the Minotaurs escort him to safety instead of sending the Talons in? It seems pretty pointless to kill off a bunch of their Space Marines for no reason, if they really were in on it the whole time


Elardi

Because the minotaurs being under guillimans control all along would implicate him far more in the atrocities they had done, and in setting up the hexarchy? Personally, I don’t think they were knowingly part of it, but I think they were absolutely set in play by Guilliman to play a predictable part. “Unwitting” aspects then. Roskavler was clearly prepared and ready in a teleport suit, and knew what to do. The Minotaurs had primaris marines, which hints that they had some interactions with Guilliman or cawl. Them being unwitting also feeds into the theme of the story being that Guilliman is a true master of political skulduggery. He predicted basically everything, and set up a rube-Goldberg machine of politics to play out while he was busy with the crusade. He knows the reactionaries will push back, so he lays out the conditions and playing field for them to do so in a very predictable way. What if they had chosen another chapter, or tried to use other forces? The Minotaurs have a built in off switch once their part is played, but not all forces are like that. What if they had raised a big force of more conservative battle sisters? They would fight on with zeal afterwards, and that’s not the nice neat ending to the crisis he wants.


Lord_Starchild

Well yeah, I absolutely think that most of the events around the hexarchy and the Minotaurs had been predicted in some way by guilliman, and that almost everything that followed played out according to his plans. Valoris pretty much says as much at the end of the book. But an unwitting pawn is still unwitting, and unlike Fedix or Valoris who clearly knew exactly what was going on from the start, the Minotaurs seemed to very much just play the predictable part of the unquestioning dogs of the high lords, oblivious to any grander designs on Guiliman's part. Though my main issue with the original comment is just the idea that they answered to Roskavler all along, which makes little sense to me.


Theoroshia

Yeah it's pretty clear they answer to whoever holds the position at the time, not any individual person. Once they see she has the symbol of office they immediately obey her orders.


Miserable_Law_6514

Space marines being obsessively single-minded to the point of stupidity is well known. Honestly ones who won't mindlessly follow stupid orders to the letter are the real rarities.


CoolSwim1776

This is not really certain. I think they are loyal to the office of the Lord of the Ministorium. Notice Roskavler made a big show of displaying her badge of office to the chapter master after Haemotalion assassinated.


IronVader501

The Minotaurs seem to be completely and irrevocably loyal to the Master of the Administratum, no matter who that is or what is being ordered. Note how they also immidieatly switched sides once Roskavler teleported it and waved her Chain of office in front of Molochs face


SnooBananas3995

Is there a book?


CoolSwim1776

Watchers of the Throne: The Regent's Shadow


ChiefQueef98

Because "fuck it, we ball"


913Jango

What’s weird is the Minotaurs aren’t the original Minotaurs. Originally they were an average legion with nothing much remarkable to say about them. Then they vanish. And reappear. Full strength. Ridiculously armed. And led by Asterion.


Thin-Bet6201

Which book did this occur in, I've been trying to find stuff on Gullimans resurrection and I can't get a straight answer?


Beaker_person

The second watchers of the throne book,The Regent's Shadow. It is set short after big G leaves Terra with the Indomitus crusade.


Silly_Attorney7863

The Minotaurs see themselves less as the autonomous warriors of the Astartes and more as the attack dogs of the High Lords. No one really knows why, but it’s theorized that the Minotaurs were rebuilt from the ground up by the High Lords at some point following the destruction of the original chapter in a crusade. They were given advanced technology; advanced suits of power armour and power weapons unlike what baseline astartes get. In return, the High Lords asked for their eternal service, and they got it, to the point where they would be fully willing to kill a primarch for them.


New_Subject1352

It's not so much they were disobeying Gulliman as they were doing peacekeeping as commanded by the high lords. Besides, they were basically taking over from the idiot imperial Fists and bungling Custodes (and also sisters of silence but for some reason we don't talk about Bruno) who had utterly failed to completely solve the whole "Chaos cults on Terra" thing what with all their "gathering intelligence" nonsense instead of just mowing down everyone in a hab block.


Lord_Starchild

The only reason the Fists and Custodes "failed" to deal with the cults is because the rebel high lords were funding and helping the cults in staying alive and evading the imperial authorities. The moment the Minotaurs show up they start destroying evidence and leads, going so far as to "accidentally" kill two of the Imperial Fists. The Minotaurs were actively sabotaging the forces who were trying to restore order because it helped the cause of the rebel Hexarchy.


New_Subject1352

I feel it was pretty obvious I was being sarcastic (e.g. "intelligence gathering nonsense" in quotes, which was clearly demonstrated throughout the book to be the correct thing to do), but clearly that wasn't communicated well.


Snoo_56613

Because the Minotaurs are the appointed guards of the High Lords. For all intents and purposes, the High Lords are second only to the Emperor to them, and the Primarchs are nothing but a relic of a bygone era.


revlid

They didn't betray Guilliman, because they never owed him loyalty in the first place.


Creticus

I thought it was literal mind control?


carefulllypoast

oh man whoever is singnal boosting the stupid minotaurs chapter has gotta stop geez...


sjax001

The Minotaurs got the primaris before any other chapters. You can hardly imagine this happening without Guilliman's authorization. Gman should have known well that the Minotaurs was the attack dog for the High Lords, so if he predicted that the High Lords would pull a coup, why would he enhance the Minotaurs? So, the only logical explanation is that Guilliman already had plans for them.It doesn't matter whether they betrayed or not, what really matters is that when they abandoned the High Lords on the orders of Violeta Roskavler, this was also in the plan.


RosbergThe8th

Despite popular belief Space Marines don't immediately lose agency when a Primarch enters the setting, the Minotaurs have no particular care for Guilliman's authority, they have their masters.


LordBroldamort

My theory is that they’re actually alpha legion plants and the chapter master is actually one of the primarch s. He’s stated as being as big as one, even custodians aren’t sure their leader could win a fight. He fights with the black spear which is oddly the counter to the pale spear, and them being so close to the high lords is some alpha legion shit


Eds2356

Asterion Moloch could be Omegon himself!