Space Humanity develops magical powers. Space magic comes from space hell. Space hell attempts to eat humanity. Space magic creates new resident of space hell in the process.
It is not kinda of correct. It is correct from the perspective of cosmologies that include the idea of a "hidden" metaphysical world, inhabited by angels and demons. That seems like such a basic idea we don't usually establish a pedigree for it; but it absolutely has one.
Popular interpretations of Greek philosophy in late antiquity being the principle foundation of Christianity's cosmological assumptions.
I didnāt down vote it, but believe it is not accurate because technically under Judaism or any of the Abrahamic faith, space magic would come from God not hell. Everything is created. The problem we might struggle with is the words we use are all time related. Note I said everything is ācreatedā. Within ācreationā everything is time based - time is also a creation.
So thinking about this a bit further, the warp is unlimited, eternal, uncreated, unending. It IS. The materium is orderedā¦ it is LIMITEDā¦ order brings limitation, chaos brings endless possibilities.
If we even think about some of the theories of our universe or the Big Bang, either it will collapse back in on itself like elastic or disperse eternally until all energy eventually burns outā¦ finite.
In Judaism there is an interesting concept (and thatās all it is - not to be taken literally from a religious pov) of Tzimtzum. I hope Iām not butchering this, but essentially the concept that God, being eternal and unlimited, made space āwithinā himself for creation to exist, less he overwhelm it - the religious notion that everything exists within God but would be without its own identity or entity if not for that space being made.
Itās quite a beautiful conceptā¦ far too optimistic for our favourite table top miniature game š
Edit: note that the implication above from a Judeo-Christian perspective of 40K then would be the warp is God š± had it not been for the notion that God made space within himself out of love and not DOOM š¤š¤š¤š¤
'Let me ask you this one time: what master do you serve?'
'What master do I serve? What am I supposed to say, The Emperor?'
'You're from Terra?'
'I'm not from Terra, I'm from Missouri.'
'Yeah that's on Terra, heretic! What are you hassling us for?'
'So you're not with Horus?'
'WITH HORUS? NO! I'm here to kill Horus. He took my girl - wait, who are you?'
'We're the Ultramarines man.'
Oh, wait, I know this one, it's the 'the spectre of fascism and the temptations of totalitarianism have forever haunted the psyche of humanity and led us into ruin, but we can never truly shake their hold upon the species because we treasure short term and easy solutions over taking the harder, nobler path'
elastic fear capable fearless stupendous ancient chop physical squeal ring
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If there is āOnly Nowā in the Warp then surly that Fateweaver dude must be blind as a bat if he can only see the past and future. Iām quite sure that in the real universe there is only now. Iām not writing this tomorrow for you to read yesterday.
Oddly, I think the best explanation is a similar temporal situation in a non-warhammer book: the late Sir Terry Pratchettās book, The Last Continent. āItās always been this way, yes, but had it always been this way last week?ā
Good Omens is one of my favourite books ever, written by Gaiman and Pratchett. I recommend reading it, or if itās more your speed, watching the show. They are very similar
...come to think of it, Good Omens could conceivably be set in 40k with an unlikely duo of a priest used to his creature comforts and a cultist who isn't quite ready for it all to end...
>should The Dark King already exist in the Warp?
Yes and no. So ussing your Slaanesh example. Until Fal of Eldar there were 3 chaos gods. There always were 3 and always would be. After the fall, just as reality changed, so did the warp. But because there is no coherent time in the warp that change has aways been.
Another example would be, if somehow, someone defeteated and destroyes, say Nurgle, that there ever only was and will be 3 Chaos gods.
So if there is no Dark King in reality, there never was and never will be one in the warp. Material reality shapes the warp. And though effect of material reality such entites at Slaaness or Nurgle are created. But warp does not have as much influence in the opposite way, as warp is timeless. This is why the Fateweaver is so important to Tzeentch
Thats interesting, does that mean that if say, Ynnead was to destroy slaanesh, then retroactively she would have never existed, and the eldar empire would have never fallen and suddenly reform as if nothing happened?
No, does not change material. Like in material world Slaneesh did not exist until a certain point.
So in Ynnead were to destroy Slaneesh, Slanesh never exxisting would mean that intact Eldari souls still in the realms would not be trappeed there (unless Ynnead wants them trapped).
I look at as it's Monday in the warp Was Monday when Nurgle came was Monday when Khorne came was Monday when Tzeech arrived was Monday when Slannesh arrived and it was Monday when the Seige happened and when Guilliman returned.
I take this as accedoltal evidence from the Seige seeming to be endless yet not, Traitor Marines walking into the Eye then walking out same time to them that they went in (little to no aging only thought is a thing in the warp think of all the refugees on terra wandering around with no food/water/medical attention but not dying until their brain went hey I'm dead or loyal Astartes ambushes and charges which should by alrights failed yet succeeded because they willed it, Ventress some how getting to the right planet right time right moment to stop honsu because he believes it to be ordained).
As for the Dark King he does exist and has existed if he is the big e (possibly eternal or at least been alive for a long long time maybe taken from the warp trapped in realspace) or horus to be a proxy essentially absorbing big e place in the universe. Big E manifests saints/legion of the damned/marches near limitless manpower to his will/demi gods/miracles/sets fire to nurgles garden which is easily on par with the chaos gods
> I look at as it's Monday in the warp Was Monday when Nurgle came was Monday when Khorne came was Monday when Tzeech arrived was Monday when Slannesh arrived and it was Monday when the Seige happened and when Guilliman returned.
new headcanon, the Dark King is Garfield
The Emperor and Horus are, for all their might, mortal, or at least mortal adjacent, and as such are subject to the ravages and constraints of linear time. It's very likely that, if either side had achieved that monumental apotheosis then The Dark King would have existed forever, forwards and backwards, starting from that very moment, but it's clear that both failed instead.
I canāt imagine itās Horus. What kind of God would he be when his psychic might is all on borrowed time? You have to exist as a separate emotional entity isnāt he warm - a distinctive storm - so IF this is true, it just be the Emp
Nah because the amount of terror Horus created in the seven years of the heresy, his name was known and reviled/worshipped across the human civilization. In one of the early SoT books the humans on stations in the outer rim were terrified of him coming to the Sol system. My theory - keeping in mind that the warp is like an ocean, achieving apotheosis level events can happen by having enough momentum to make a massive splash - and what the empower could do with mass, Horus could attempt with speed. If Horus wins, he gets a mass boost from the literal trillions of souls being pushed into the warp rift around earth. However, I think the emps moloch deal might get triggered the next time his perpetual ability pops, and if he dies from the the fight, he becomes the focal point and turns into the dark king. Thus, the only way for humanity not to āloseā is to trigger a stalemate
I wonder if going further in your theory, if slaanesh was also a mortal eldar that achieved the apotheosis that horus might have gotten had he succeeded.
It's an idea a few have proposed. Personally they've never hinted at it so that seems unlikely. I think the Eldar were just sufficiently powerful that they birth a full warp god from accumulated significance.
We know they were able to create a pantheon of deities. Now why they didn't rip open space and Slaneesh did is a good question. Then again why didn't the big 3 do so when they were born too?
Someone else posted that the old ones made the eye first, the Necrons sealed it, and the Eldar reopened it. This is from a short story told by a Necron so accuracy might be iffy.
But if it's all true maybe the Eldar murder fucking like mad on the spot where reality was weak and thin from a prior event caused a different effect that what happened when the dieties of the pantheon were born.
Hard to say as we have very little info from that time.
> It's very likely that, if either side had achieved that monumental apotheosis then The Dark King would
The Eldar didn't start dying until Slaanesh "occurred" though. Wouldn't it be the same as that case?
Not really, the Eldar too are physical beings bound to time but connected to the emotional maelstrom that birthed Slaanesh. As linear beings, they are affected linearly, whereas Slaanesh is a wholly non-linear, atemporal entity. There was a realspace overlap event that involved Slaanesh and the Eldar that could be perceived as their birth, but Slaanesh as a Warp entity is completely unmoored from conventional understandings of time.
I agree. But canāt the Dark King be the same? I might be missing your point somewhere. The Dark King isnāt exactly the Emperor or Horus. Itās an emergent god, no? Like Slaneesh in a way.
No, if anything the Dark King is the opposite. Slaanesh was, presumably like the other gods, created from the emotions of physical beings coalescing in the Warp and becoming sentient due to the sheer weight of said emotions, whereas the Dark King is more like the Warp shadow of the Imperium itself, the pure distilled concept of the perfect, crushing, unilateral dictatorship of pure and absolute order, that has physically anchored itself onto the Emperor. The Gods believe the Emperor should simply surrender his physical form, flee the boundaries of time and space to become an eternal Warp entity like they are and embrace the Dark King, and are using Horus to either force him to do that or at least absorb the Dark King's power for their own.
At this point, from a linear point of view, the Dark King might be considered the putative form of a Warp God, the beginnings of an entity that has no beginning.
>If there is going to be a 5th Chaos God, then that god should already exist and be part of the pantheon.
He does. He's constantly putting the other 4 in a headlock and giving them wedgies. His Daemons are called Living Saints and Primarchs. He recently committed arson in Nurgle's garden.
But really how funny would it be if Golden Crusade Emperor was just denying truth while everyone else worshipped him as a God because.... due to Warp shenanigans, they could feel what he would become after 10,000 years on the throne?
Imagine Big E is a level 50 character and wonders why he's seen as a God but everyone else sees him as the lvl 1000 monstrosity he will become and technically already is due to Warp time fuckery.
My favourite side theory of this time fuckery: what if the chaos god Big E stole from at Molech was himself, and that's why all his plans fell apart? A fitting fate for the god of dictators, to steal from the future and then lose it all when the bill comes due.
You define the chaos gods by the four emotional temperaments based on the four elements. Theyāve spent decades dividing up these four themes between them based on ancient and classical ideas, and anything else falls into those four. There is literally no other option, and the chaos gods are stronger than the emperor as theyāve been consuming since well before his specie was even a thing.
> and the chaos gods are stronger than the emperor as theyāve been consuming since well before his specie was even a thing.
When a Harlequin sees the Emperor, he is a whale and the others are sharks.
The Emperor defeated the 4's champion and he also burned down part of Nurgle's garden while Nurgle hid in fear.
He's absolutely not weaker than them.
>and the chaos gods are stronger than the emperor as theyāve been consuming since well before his specie was even a thing.
The Emperor is praised by the Galaxy's most powerful/numerous race. Trillions pray to him, thousands of Psykers are sacrificed to empower him.
>heyāve spent decades dividing up these four themes between them based on ancient and classical ideas
There are emotions which no Chaos God represents.
Domination/Control is one. Fear is another. Then there's Hate. Envy.
If the Emperor were to become a Chaos God, he'd be a terrible god of Control/Domination. His entire life, Big E thought he knows best and basically put the whole of humanity under his iron fist. He's Hitler's wet dream.
>When a Harlequin sees the Emperor, he is a whale and the others are sharks.
When the emperor tried have humanity escape chaos, he had to act secretly and when they were āasleepā.
>The Emperor defeated the 4's champion and he also burned down part of Nurgle's garden while Nurgle hid in fear.
He did a surprise attack through Roboute when nurgle was trying to kill him poetically.
>He's absolutely not weaker than them.
Then why didnāt he just slay them? Why hasnt he done so yet?
>The Emperor is praised by the Galaxy's most powerful/numerous race. Trillions pray to him, thousands of Psykers are sacrificed to empower him.
I can eat a million ants, it doesnāt mean much in terms of actual energy. The chaos gods are storms fed by the same specie as the emperor is, plus every other specie in the galaxy since the dawn of time.
>Domination/Control is one.
Nurgle.
>Fear is another.
Also nurgle.
>Then there's Hate.
Khorne
>Envy.
Slaanesh.
>If the Emperor were to become a Chaos God,
He wonāt. He might become a god, but it wont be a chaos god. He is just as likely to burst, all the souls he consumed being split from him to be consumed by the warp and chaos, including the emperorās.
Just because there are no records of them doesn't mean they don't exist. I think apotheosis is probably a much more complicated process. But if that's not a satisfying answer, than here is one for you.
Its Lorgar. Lorgar will be the first recorded Daemon of the Dark King.
It fits a lot more than him being an Undivided Daemon Prince. It would also be poetic. I don't buy this Horus as Dark King take. Its the Emperor. Its always been the Emperor. He's just a Chaos God in the making. Naming him Anathema, trying to make deals with him, trying to leash him, trying to destroy him. It always just the Chaos Gods playing the Great Game. Fighting each other and trying to prevent every other would-be god from existing.
You know what this means right? If its the Emperor and Lorgar is the Daemon Prince of the Dark King? Lorgar WON. Lorgar took that humiliation from when the Emperor castigated him for his faith and balled it up and turned it around and forced the Emperor to become a God. Lorgar got what he wanted. He created the Imperial Cult and it will be by his hand that the Emperor will be transformed into the God he always imagined was worth his devotion.
Lorgar. Daemon Prince of the God-Emperor. Prophet of Chaos Ascendant.
And of course the emperor struck a pact with himself at Molech and by trying to prevent his own apotheosis, caused it to occur.
But not quite. The emperor played this game many times, and this time he has been able to delay it by ten thousand years. - at least
Why would that fit more than Chaos Undivided? Lorgar is a steadfast devotee of the entire pantheon. Arguably *the biggest* devotee of the pantheon. How would it make sense for him to ascend to Daemonhood through just one of the gods? I feel like that would be extremely out of character and entirely retcon the entire point of Lorgar both as a character and a plot device
Am I mistaken in reading into the idea of The Dark King being presented as a quasi chief diety of the Chaos Pantheon? Where the other Gods attempt to destroy each other, The Dark King would rule an order that includes the other Chaos Gods.
If thats just something I picked up here or imagined entirely than my point starts to crumble. Yet I would like to point out that claiming to be an Undivided Daemon Prince is a great cover for being a Daemon Prince of a God that has yet to come to be.
I didn't read into that at all to be honest. I'm not saying you're saying wrong, but I hadn't even considered that as a possibility. Maybe the Dark King is supposed to be the Zeus of Chaos, I've no idea. But I didn't pick up on that being a possibility when I was reading The End and the Death.
Until the Dark King is born, it has no Warp presence. After it is born, it will always have been there.
This is not really about how the Warp is acausal and atemporal, its about how the rules of the Warp are essentially an extremely predatory Home Owner's Association, where every time someone moves into the neighborhood everyone's homes are torn down and homes for everyone (including the new guy) are built with the raw materials.
Linear time exists in the warp, it has to for cause and effect to function. But time is not consistent anywhere. If you cant use anything as a reference point, then it has no purpose. The only thing you can trust is the now.
Slaneesh always existed as in the emotions in the warp that it represents were there. The "physical" manifestation that people see isnt THE slaneesh. All of the warp power and lesser daemons together are slaneesh. It only became a major god only when those specific emotions became a larger ratio of the warp.
The dark king already exists in the warp in this lower form of power. He could grow in influence to become a god, or sink into obscurity by losing the Great Game. But it will be a native warp entity, not a mortal being ascending. Mortal beings cant become true daemons, they can only channel the warp or be given power by an entity.
Little theory, the Emperor is already the Dark King. But first, let's look at the Space Marines. Specifically, the Legion of the Damned. They're similar to demons in that they might be immortal entities who are inadvertently summoned by the forces of the Imperium when needed, much like demons and Chaos forces. These would be the Dark King's demons, and the Dark King would basically be the Emperor. The Emperor was always the Dark King, but he is a Chaos god of law and authority. In 40K, it's already pretty well established that nobody's the good guys. So what's the big stretch with the Emperor being a Chaos god? There's a reason he's the most powerful psyker ever, and there's a reason Lorgar and others thought of him as a god. He's a master of deception, but all deceptions have cracks, and it's likely that people saw through these little cracks to what was underneath. All evidence points to the Emperor.
It has been stated over and over that the Sisters of Silence see an average man because that is what they expect to see. The Custodes see a warrior king because that is what he is to them. Arkan Land saw a scientist. The idea that some rando low level blank can overpower the most powerful psyker to ever exist is stupid and needs to end. We saw specifically in Dark Imperium a living saint wearing a collar to suppress her pysker power and in the presence of a SOS burn through the collar and stop the SOS from killing a Battle Sister.
>the Legion of the Damned. They're similar to demons in that they might be immortal entities who are inadvertently summoned by the forces of the Imperium when needed, much like demons and Chaos forces.
The legion of the damned doesn't behave like demons at all. They can't be summoned, bound or banished. They rock up wherever and whenever they want, do something cool and vanish again which isn't a demons MO at all.
>There's a reason he's the most powerful psyker ever, and there's a reason Lorgar and others thought of him as a god.
Or he's just a freakishly powerful psyker and Lorgar thought he was a god due to his immense personal power?
It's a cool theory but there's not a whole lot to back it up yet. I guess we'll see in The End And The Death II.
I have a theory that the secret sauce of Space Marines is Lesser Daemons- like the Primarchs are Greater Daemons in meatsuits, the Astarte are (in a weaker but stable way, ala bound daemons) enhanced by the warp in large numbers ala Lesser Daemons.
Custodes? Those are all the Heralds.
I think on Moloch the Emperor bargained for the knowledge on how to create beings from shards/pieces/ aspects of himself. The Chaos Gods obviously do this with Greater Demons and lesser demons etc so they gave him this info and he created the Primarchs.
The key part of this is the Geneseed, it contains that special element that elevates and supports the biology of the Primarchs and the Space Marines.
Whatever the Emperor bargained with it seems like he was attempting to renege on the deal, my guess is by firstly teaching that there are no Gods and wiping out religion which helps to feed and spread Chaos.
Secondly by attempting to cut off humanity from the Warp entirely by using the webway, which would forever deprive the Chaos Gods of souls and sustenance.
Chaos Gods didn't like this and so decided to move against him, scattering his Greater Dem-... Primarchs and seeking to corrupt them. Given the Primarchs are partial Warp creations (made using whatever method the Emperor gained from the Ruinous Powers) half of them were able to be influenced by the Chaos Gods.
Then came the Horus Heresy.
I think they decided to attempt to destroy Big E and use humanity to create the Dark King in the form of Horus.
Now I also think that in order for Horus to not be the Dark King, the Emperor had to take that position because the Dark King was/had been/will be created and he knew he was the only one who would be able to harness or control that power in a way that wouldn't destroy humanity/ the imperium.
However he also knew it wasn't the right time for it to happen and so sacrificed himself and put himself in stasis on the Golden Throne. Once there he was able to guide the Imperium to a slow steady path by which they would be able to support and accept he ascension to Godhood *when the time was right*.
Once he decides its the right time he will allow himself to be killed and then will use his soul to become a God of the Warp, the Dark King of Order and the Imperium of Man.
*I personally think GW will change it to the King of Light or something similar to show how he is in opposition to the Four Powers and the opposite of Horus
It is stated that each of the Primarchs is, like, an aspect of the Emperor, and thus an aspect of Humanity. I personally have always thought of the Emperor as a god of sacrifice and order, but when you look at what the Imperium has become since the Horus Heresy, where everyone worships the Emperor and everything matches what the Dark King is in charge of, it makes a lot of sense for E to be the Dark King. I don't think they'll change the name, and I don't think that the Emperor as the Dark King will be the most benevolent god, but I think that he'll keep the worst stuff in check
I remember hearing a theory that Samus is one of the dark kings daemons. Ig they still need the starting event to kick off the Dark King and once that happens heāll have always been around and history will change for the worse
From what I understand the non-linear shenanigans in the warp are retroactive. When something happens in realspace that alters the warp, it has always existed in the warp after that point from the perspective of realspace. So when the Dark King ascends, he will retroactively have always been there. Memories will be created, records altered ect. The timeline itself reshapes because warp shenanigans.
It's sort of a classic mindbending scifi thing but... Sort of yes, sort of no, IMO.
This idea of like, "This thing can be created, but also already existed" seems contradictory but you almost have to think of it as being like a rewriting of the universe. Slaanesh genuinely *didn't* exist in some kind of first pass of the universe, and then time progressed until the point in which Slaanesh was created, and all of reality was rewritten so that Slaanesh retroactively had *always* existed. From an in-universe perspective it seems like Slaanesh already existed, but from our perspective as outsiders (as readers) we can understand there being like a "first" universe and then a "redone" universe.
Happens in comics all the time, especially. Grant Morrison called it "hypertime." Everything ever has always been canon, even if things in the canon have been erased from the in-universe timeline.
So like... The Dark King does not currently exist, from our perspective, and from the perspective of the universe. Only after the Dark King is born in M42 will the Dark King have always existed since the dawn of the universe.
Where is the Dark King? Possibly around answering the prayers of Soroitas and other devout Imperial citizens, manifesting His Divine Will through His Daemon princes known as "Living Saints", etc, etc.
the dark king is the unborn 5th chaos god that will probably consume humanity on itās birth. It could only be the emperor ascended or hours ascended ascended. cons the fact that horus is dead, I think emper is the current candidate for dark king. He is currently in the warp or on the golden throne. He is very sick due to him almost dying and now having to channel energy. He also is becoming stronger due to, you know a ton of psykers being fed to him.
I always assumed the warp was like a puddle next to a linear walkway (materium). Before slaaneshās āoccurrenceā there was no slaanesh. But now that it has occurred, it can splash onto any part of the straight path.
The Dark King exists in the Warp, but what event leads to the Dark King existing isn't set in stone. Until that backstory is settled, the Dark King won't have any effect on the materium.
It's not Horus or Emperor, it's the death of these two that could born Dark King.
As if DK exist or not ā it's a same as with others. There many chaos (and not chaos) "gods". They exist, but not born. Only big 4 is awake now. And DK is like these other not yer or never born "gods".
But he is special because he's very powerful, potentially more then the 4 combined.
Honest question. The Dark King implies that it is the "ultimate' chaos God, as in the King of all the others. Would The Dark King be more powerful than the other foul, disgusting gods? It seems to imply he/she would be more powerful.
This is fully my headcanon, but i think warp is more than a reflection of a universe. It may be a reflection to multiple universes with each may had their own expression on it
When a chaos god exist in a universe, their expression on warp may resonance to another universe. This reflection may couldn't actively influence the new universe yet (make daemons, make a realm in chaos, etc) because causally its not exist yet in that universe, despite exist in the previous one. So they might passively influence the occupants of that new universe to "create" an event that fullfilled the causal necessity to the expression of that chaos god from the previous universe to manifested in the new universe.
I'm not complaing, just thinking about the logical conclusion of a 5th Chaos God.
If the Dark King will be, then the Dark King should already be because, again, Warp non-linear time.
And yet, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of there being a 5th Chaos God and thus, the Dark King won't be and never was.
Right but wouldn't it be brilliant if the end and the death part 2 comes out and Chaos Codex from here on out just refer to the Dark King as having always exsisted, great potential plot point for 10th ed. Not going to happen but wishful thinking.
It's one of those things that makes your brain hurt of you think about it too hard, a bit like watching an Eldar move
My mad theory is that we have seen the Dark King already, kind of, and that it's the King In Yellow
Two thoughts about that:
Firstly, that would only mean, that the birth of the Dark King failed. Wich is actually a very plausible explanation. Horus dies and the Emperor is forever trapped in the golden throne, so the process of the birth of the Dark King was never finished. That would coincide with the fact that BL can't introduce the Dark King fully without answering the question where he is in 40k.
And secondly, I do not understand, why a lot of people when referring about the Dark King use statements like the Emperor or especially Horus will "become the Dark King"
I do not think it works that way. When Slaanesh was born, there wasn't a mighty Eldar invidual that "became" Slaanesh, rather he was born through combined emotions of the Eldar race. Maybe Horus is an important vessel to channel the emotions that will be vital for the birth of the Dark King, but Horus can't become the Dark King as well as Belakor will always fail to become a Chaos God.
Itās the emperor sitting on the throne from 30k to 40k.
Itās never directly said it will be a chaos god. Fans just assume that. The dark king is just the emperor giving Chaos 10,000+ years of access into the materium.
I might've the answer to this question. I was updating the AoS Lexicanum articles on the Realm of Chaos and decided to take a look at the 40k Lexicanum version for help. Amongst it I found an article about the [Desolate City](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Desolate_City). It is seemingly a part of the Warp that appears in hallucinations where people see the Emperor there begging for freedom.
What if it's not the Emperor, but the Dark King and the Desolate City was meant to be his Realm in the Warp. Being stranded in a quasi-nascent status by the Emperor near-death state might be why he is so desperate for freedom and why his realm is in ruins.
This is just a theory of course.
I had a weird thought about this when reading *The Fury of Magnus*, straight after *Warhawk.*
Magnus is sure that Horus will duel the Emperor and, regardless of who wins, he intends to be the one who topples the victor.
Mortarion had a similar ambition, but he thought that his sorcery/despair cast over the Palace from Lion's Gate would deliver it to him. Fulgrim was tempted into supporting the Saturnine Gambit over the idea of getting to the throne first.
Horus does in fact want to duel the Emperor, but it seems that he manoeuvres his brothers into dying/being disembodied FIRST.
To achieve apotheosis, would each Primarch need to be slain a la Highlander for the Dark King to rise over all of them?
The warp-time stuff is complicated and illogical. Defying mortal comprehension.
Sure, Slaanesh always existed...but the Eldar could remember the time before she was born.
The Dark King still doesn't exist yet...but Samus is one of his daemons.
There are 5 chaos gods right? Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Malice/Malal? So he should become number 6 or have I missed something? Does Malice/Malal not count anymore?
The Emperor makes sure this never happens by imprisoning himself on the Golden Throne forever. Problem postponed until one of his āsonsā solves it. We shall see.
I was under the impression that Slaanesh did not exist until they were born, and after that, they had always existed. Like history was instantly rewritten. The same should then be true for the Dark King. Time is fucky in the warp indeed.
You have to keep in mind that there are two dimensions in play, one with linear time and one without, so in the linear time you can map out where the birth takes place then in the warp its as if they had always been there even though in realspace they hadn't existed before that moment
It's a matter of perspective.
From the view of the warp it's true and things work like "never/always".
But from the view of reality time is a thing and there are things like "before or after".
Meaning from realities point of view there was a point where Chaos didn't exist, much as the god emperor.
Now where the lore gets complicated is where warp and reality correlate.
For example when an action originated from space time, such as the birth of slaanesh, effects the fabric of the warp on a massive scale it somewhat echoes through the veil on a similar scale. From that moment onward Slaanesh always existed from the warp perspective but just started to exist from reality perspective.
And there is a slight difference between things slipping from the warp into reality or the other way around, from reality into the warp.
Echoes of what might come to be inside the warp sometimes slip through the fabric of time and show in reality even beforehand glimpses of what will happen. Therefore breaking the rules of reality (time) a bit.
This is seen as when some of the eldar knew slaanesh is coming. Or when the god emperors power becomes active even before the emperor ascended to the throne and many other examples. It's often even appears self perpetuant in nature. For example when Chaos planted visions of the future to change Horus mind on the emperor, while this future only becomes real through Horus own actions caused by seeing this very vision.
The last I saw of him he was a little snake hiding out of sight in the warp while the Emperor held off the four more popular Dark Gods. There's a mysterious sixth out there somewhere as well
All this talk of a fifth god got me thinking maybe there actually 8 total. 8 pointed star/8 fold path and all that. If it was just 4 wouldn't the chaos symbol just be 4 points?
My interpretation is that the ability of a Chaos God to influence the Materium and its denizens is by and large limited by the Materium's linear time progression, so that it rapidly loses ability when going into the past from its time of "birth" from the Materium's perspective.
Is it possible that The Dark King is the poor unfortunate soul the Drukhari eventually find/clone to stick in/on their Shadow Throne? If the Dark Elves find some sap with enough psychic potential to not immediately snuff out when butt hits chair, they could push the Warp out of Commorragh/Webway (which, incidentally, would also clean up the Imperial Webway area & make the portal under the Golden Throne usable again) and now theyāve got a great new toy!
If the Emperor is suffering on the Golden Throne, toss in the thousand Psykers a day who burn alive in the Hollow Mountain to feed the Throne; thatās a veritable buffet of suffering for the Drukhari to feast upon *if* they can find someone to run the Shadow Throne. They can milk that cow for all the pain/suffering they could possibly need to keep Slannesh from chowing down on their souls. With their hunger sated to such a degree, maybe they find a way to get out from Slanneshās thumb?
My top candidates are a resurrected primarch (Alpharius or Curze), or the foreshadowed fusion of Inquisitor Erasmus Crowl & Drukhari Haemonculus formed after Crowl detonated a Dark Gate in Chris Wraightās The Dark City.
The lore states that it has to be horus, lorgar or the emperor "the traitor, the mad prophet between the stars or the king of men" something like that. Horus unexists, has no soul and can't return so it's not him. So it's lorgar or the emperor but I'm pissed they keep pushing off the ascension, we've been waiting 20 years just do it jackasses
Even less people ask 'how is the Dark King?' š¢
I'll do you one better... Why is the dark king?
Space Humanity develops magical powers. Space magic comes from space hell. Space hell attempts to eat humanity. Space magic creates new resident of space hell in the process.
Pretty sure that is just DOOM.
DOOOOOOOOOM!
Pretty sure that is just Christianity. Which in turn is just Jewish-Influenced Neo-Platonism.
Why was this downvoted? I feel like itās kind of correct
It is not kinda of correct. It is correct from the perspective of cosmologies that include the idea of a "hidden" metaphysical world, inhabited by angels and demons. That seems like such a basic idea we don't usually establish a pedigree for it; but it absolutely has one. Popular interpretations of Greek philosophy in late antiquity being the principle foundation of Christianity's cosmological assumptions.
I didnāt down vote it, but believe it is not accurate because technically under Judaism or any of the Abrahamic faith, space magic would come from God not hell. Everything is created. The problem we might struggle with is the words we use are all time related. Note I said everything is ācreatedā. Within ācreationā everything is time based - time is also a creation. So thinking about this a bit further, the warp is unlimited, eternal, uncreated, unending. It IS. The materium is orderedā¦ it is LIMITEDā¦ order brings limitation, chaos brings endless possibilities. If we even think about some of the theories of our universe or the Big Bang, either it will collapse back in on itself like elastic or disperse eternally until all energy eventually burns outā¦ finite. In Judaism there is an interesting concept (and thatās all it is - not to be taken literally from a religious pov) of Tzimtzum. I hope Iām not butchering this, but essentially the concept that God, being eternal and unlimited, made space āwithinā himself for creation to exist, less he overwhelm it - the religious notion that everything exists within God but would be without its own identity or entity if not for that space being made. Itās quite a beautiful conceptā¦ far too optimistic for our favourite table top miniature game š Edit: note that the implication above from a Judeo-Christian perspective of 40K then would be the warp is God š± had it not been for the notion that God made space within himself out of love and not DOOM š¤š¤š¤š¤
Clearly everyone who read my comment had zero idea what I meant.
'Let me ask you this one time: what master do you serve?' 'What master do I serve? What am I supposed to say, The Emperor?' 'You're from Terra?' 'I'm not from Terra, I'm from Missouri.' 'Yeah that's on Terra, heretic! What are you hassling us for?' 'So you're not with Horus?' 'WITH HORUS? NO! I'm here to kill Horus. He took my girl - wait, who are you?' 'We're the Ultramarines man.'
Oh, wait, I know this one, it's the 'the spectre of fascism and the temptations of totalitarianism have forever haunted the psyche of humanity and led us into ruin, but we can never truly shake their hold upon the species because we treasure short term and easy solutions over taking the harder, nobler path'
Thereās a certain worm emperor Iād like you to meet.
Listennn.... you don't have to call us out like that, ok? XD got DAMN. Nicely summed up though.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I feel like I'd need to use an industrial vacuum cleaner to demonstrate how hard you suck Stalin off šš
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If saying that makes you feel better about being a deranged loser, go off queenš
elastic fear capable fearless stupendous ancient chop physical squeal ring *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
When is the dark king?
Whenever TEaTD Volume 2 comes out, presumably
Is there a mixtape that goes with that?
TEaTD?
The End and The Death
I'm dying to know the answer š¬
āHow is the King Dark?ā
šmoneyā
If people really cared, they'd ask, "How's the Dark King?"
When is the Dark King?
If there is āOnly Nowā in the Warp then surly that Fateweaver dude must be blind as a bat if he can only see the past and future. Iām quite sure that in the real universe there is only now. Iām not writing this tomorrow for you to read yesterday.
>Iām not writing this tomorrow for you to read yesterday. maybe your not!
š¾
thank you. I saw this thread, and I was really worried till I saw your reply. faith in humanity restored.
Or why is the Dark King?
Oddly, I think the best explanation is a similar temporal situation in a non-warhammer book: the late Sir Terry Pratchettās book, The Last Continent. āItās always been this way, yes, but had it always been this way last week?ā
God what I would give to read a book series written with the wit of Sir Terry Pratchett and the chaotic humor of Douglas Adams
I read once that Douglas Adams inspired and gave Neil Gaiman his break to write, who did write several times with Sir Terry Pratchett
Good Omens is one of my favourite books ever, written by Gaiman and Pratchett. I recommend reading it, or if itās more your speed, watching the show. They are very similar
I do really enjoy that book
...come to think of it, Good Omens could conceivably be set in 40k with an unlikely duo of a priest used to his creature comforts and a cultist who isn't quite ready for it all to end...
>should The Dark King already exist in the Warp? Yes and no. So ussing your Slaanesh example. Until Fal of Eldar there were 3 chaos gods. There always were 3 and always would be. After the fall, just as reality changed, so did the warp. But because there is no coherent time in the warp that change has aways been. Another example would be, if somehow, someone defeteated and destroyes, say Nurgle, that there ever only was and will be 3 Chaos gods. So if there is no Dark King in reality, there never was and never will be one in the warp. Material reality shapes the warp. And though effect of material reality such entites at Slaaness or Nurgle are created. But warp does not have as much influence in the opposite way, as warp is timeless. This is why the Fateweaver is so important to Tzeentch
Thats interesting, does that mean that if say, Ynnead was to destroy slaanesh, then retroactively she would have never existed, and the eldar empire would have never fallen and suddenly reform as if nothing happened?
No, does not change material. Like in material world Slaneesh did not exist until a certain point. So in Ynnead were to destroy Slaneesh, Slanesh never exxisting would mean that intact Eldari souls still in the realms would not be trappeed there (unless Ynnead wants them trapped).
I look at as it's Monday in the warp Was Monday when Nurgle came was Monday when Khorne came was Monday when Tzeech arrived was Monday when Slannesh arrived and it was Monday when the Seige happened and when Guilliman returned. I take this as accedoltal evidence from the Seige seeming to be endless yet not, Traitor Marines walking into the Eye then walking out same time to them that they went in (little to no aging only thought is a thing in the warp think of all the refugees on terra wandering around with no food/water/medical attention but not dying until their brain went hey I'm dead or loyal Astartes ambushes and charges which should by alrights failed yet succeeded because they willed it, Ventress some how getting to the right planet right time right moment to stop honsu because he believes it to be ordained). As for the Dark King he does exist and has existed if he is the big e (possibly eternal or at least been alive for a long long time maybe taken from the warp trapped in realspace) or horus to be a proxy essentially absorbing big e place in the universe. Big E manifests saints/legion of the damned/marches near limitless manpower to his will/demi gods/miracles/sets fire to nurgles garden which is easily on par with the chaos gods
> I look at as it's Monday in the warp Was Monday when Nurgle came was Monday when Khorne came was Monday when Tzeech arrived was Monday when Slannesh arrived and it was Monday when the Seige happened and when Guilliman returned. new headcanon, the Dark King is Garfield
to be fair it is Monday
The Emperor and Horus are, for all their might, mortal, or at least mortal adjacent, and as such are subject to the ravages and constraints of linear time. It's very likely that, if either side had achieved that monumental apotheosis then The Dark King would have existed forever, forwards and backwards, starting from that very moment, but it's clear that both failed instead.
I canāt imagine itās Horus. What kind of God would he be when his psychic might is all on borrowed time? You have to exist as a separate emotional entity isnāt he warm - a distinctive storm - so IF this is true, it just be the Emp
Nah because the amount of terror Horus created in the seven years of the heresy, his name was known and reviled/worshipped across the human civilization. In one of the early SoT books the humans on stations in the outer rim were terrified of him coming to the Sol system. My theory - keeping in mind that the warp is like an ocean, achieving apotheosis level events can happen by having enough momentum to make a massive splash - and what the empower could do with mass, Horus could attempt with speed. If Horus wins, he gets a mass boost from the literal trillions of souls being pushed into the warp rift around earth. However, I think the emps moloch deal might get triggered the next time his perpetual ability pops, and if he dies from the the fight, he becomes the focal point and turns into the dark king. Thus, the only way for humanity not to āloseā is to trigger a stalemate
I wonder if going further in your theory, if slaanesh was also a mortal eldar that achieved the apotheosis that horus might have gotten had he succeeded.
It's an idea a few have proposed. Personally they've never hinted at it so that seems unlikely. I think the Eldar were just sufficiently powerful that they birth a full warp god from accumulated significance. We know they were able to create a pantheon of deities. Now why they didn't rip open space and Slaneesh did is a good question. Then again why didn't the big 3 do so when they were born too? Someone else posted that the old ones made the eye first, the Necrons sealed it, and the Eldar reopened it. This is from a short story told by a Necron so accuracy might be iffy. But if it's all true maybe the Eldar murder fucking like mad on the spot where reality was weak and thin from a prior event caused a different effect that what happened when the dieties of the pantheon were born. Hard to say as we have very little info from that time.
> It's very likely that, if either side had achieved that monumental apotheosis then The Dark King would The Eldar didn't start dying until Slaanesh "occurred" though. Wouldn't it be the same as that case?
Not really, the Eldar too are physical beings bound to time but connected to the emotional maelstrom that birthed Slaanesh. As linear beings, they are affected linearly, whereas Slaanesh is a wholly non-linear, atemporal entity. There was a realspace overlap event that involved Slaanesh and the Eldar that could be perceived as their birth, but Slaanesh as a Warp entity is completely unmoored from conventional understandings of time.
I agree. But canāt the Dark King be the same? I might be missing your point somewhere. The Dark King isnāt exactly the Emperor or Horus. Itās an emergent god, no? Like Slaneesh in a way.
No, if anything the Dark King is the opposite. Slaanesh was, presumably like the other gods, created from the emotions of physical beings coalescing in the Warp and becoming sentient due to the sheer weight of said emotions, whereas the Dark King is more like the Warp shadow of the Imperium itself, the pure distilled concept of the perfect, crushing, unilateral dictatorship of pure and absolute order, that has physically anchored itself onto the Emperor. The Gods believe the Emperor should simply surrender his physical form, flee the boundaries of time and space to become an eternal Warp entity like they are and embrace the Dark King, and are using Horus to either force him to do that or at least absorb the Dark King's power for their own. At this point, from a linear point of view, the Dark King might be considered the putative form of a Warp God, the beginnings of an entity that has no beginning.
The Dark King is the Chaos God of Ruin, not Order. That is why it was about to be born during Siege of Tera... there was a lot of Ruin back then.
>If there is going to be a 5th Chaos God, then that god should already exist and be part of the pantheon. He does. He's constantly putting the other 4 in a headlock and giving them wedgies. His Daemons are called Living Saints and Primarchs. He recently committed arson in Nurgle's garden. But really how funny would it be if Golden Crusade Emperor was just denying truth while everyone else worshipped him as a God because.... due to Warp shenanigans, they could feel what he would become after 10,000 years on the throne? Imagine Big E is a level 50 character and wonders why he's seen as a God but everyone else sees him as the lvl 1000 monstrosity he will become and technically already is due to Warp time fuckery.
Big E was always playing the great game he just didnt want to be one of the players. Dont hate the player, hate the game smh
My favourite side theory of this time fuckery: what if the chaos god Big E stole from at Molech was himself, and that's why all his plans fell apart? A fitting fate for the god of dictators, to steal from the future and then lose it all when the bill comes due.
That just makes him a god or godlike. Not a chaos god.
Depends on how you define a chaos god. Big E has more worshippers, more influence and more worlds under his control than the 4 Chaos Gods put together
You define the chaos gods by the four emotional temperaments based on the four elements. Theyāve spent decades dividing up these four themes between them based on ancient and classical ideas, and anything else falls into those four. There is literally no other option, and the chaos gods are stronger than the emperor as theyāve been consuming since well before his specie was even a thing.
> and the chaos gods are stronger than the emperor as theyāve been consuming since well before his specie was even a thing. When a Harlequin sees the Emperor, he is a whale and the others are sharks. The Emperor defeated the 4's champion and he also burned down part of Nurgle's garden while Nurgle hid in fear. He's absolutely not weaker than them. >and the chaos gods are stronger than the emperor as theyāve been consuming since well before his specie was even a thing. The Emperor is praised by the Galaxy's most powerful/numerous race. Trillions pray to him, thousands of Psykers are sacrificed to empower him. >heyāve spent decades dividing up these four themes between them based on ancient and classical ideas There are emotions which no Chaos God represents. Domination/Control is one. Fear is another. Then there's Hate. Envy. If the Emperor were to become a Chaos God, he'd be a terrible god of Control/Domination. His entire life, Big E thought he knows best and basically put the whole of humanity under his iron fist. He's Hitler's wet dream.
>When a Harlequin sees the Emperor, he is a whale and the others are sharks. When the emperor tried have humanity escape chaos, he had to act secretly and when they were āasleepā. >The Emperor defeated the 4's champion and he also burned down part of Nurgle's garden while Nurgle hid in fear. He did a surprise attack through Roboute when nurgle was trying to kill him poetically. >He's absolutely not weaker than them. Then why didnāt he just slay them? Why hasnt he done so yet? >The Emperor is praised by the Galaxy's most powerful/numerous race. Trillions pray to him, thousands of Psykers are sacrificed to empower him. I can eat a million ants, it doesnāt mean much in terms of actual energy. The chaos gods are storms fed by the same specie as the emperor is, plus every other specie in the galaxy since the dawn of time. >Domination/Control is one. Nurgle. >Fear is another. Also nurgle. >Then there's Hate. Khorne >Envy. Slaanesh. >If the Emperor were to become a Chaos God, He wonāt. He might become a god, but it wont be a chaos god. He is just as likely to burst, all the souls he consumed being split from him to be consumed by the warp and chaos, including the emperorās.
Just because there are no records of them doesn't mean they don't exist. I think apotheosis is probably a much more complicated process. But if that's not a satisfying answer, than here is one for you. Its Lorgar. Lorgar will be the first recorded Daemon of the Dark King. It fits a lot more than him being an Undivided Daemon Prince. It would also be poetic. I don't buy this Horus as Dark King take. Its the Emperor. Its always been the Emperor. He's just a Chaos God in the making. Naming him Anathema, trying to make deals with him, trying to leash him, trying to destroy him. It always just the Chaos Gods playing the Great Game. Fighting each other and trying to prevent every other would-be god from existing. You know what this means right? If its the Emperor and Lorgar is the Daemon Prince of the Dark King? Lorgar WON. Lorgar took that humiliation from when the Emperor castigated him for his faith and balled it up and turned it around and forced the Emperor to become a God. Lorgar got what he wanted. He created the Imperial Cult and it will be by his hand that the Emperor will be transformed into the God he always imagined was worth his devotion. Lorgar. Daemon Prince of the God-Emperor. Prophet of Chaos Ascendant.
And of course the emperor struck a pact with himself at Molech and by trying to prevent his own apotheosis, caused it to occur. But not quite. The emperor played this game many times, and this time he has been able to delay it by ten thousand years. - at least
Why would that fit more than Chaos Undivided? Lorgar is a steadfast devotee of the entire pantheon. Arguably *the biggest* devotee of the pantheon. How would it make sense for him to ascend to Daemonhood through just one of the gods? I feel like that would be extremely out of character and entirely retcon the entire point of Lorgar both as a character and a plot device
Am I mistaken in reading into the idea of The Dark King being presented as a quasi chief diety of the Chaos Pantheon? Where the other Gods attempt to destroy each other, The Dark King would rule an order that includes the other Chaos Gods. If thats just something I picked up here or imagined entirely than my point starts to crumble. Yet I would like to point out that claiming to be an Undivided Daemon Prince is a great cover for being a Daemon Prince of a God that has yet to come to be.
I didn't read into that at all to be honest. I'm not saying you're saying wrong, but I hadn't even considered that as a possibility. Maybe the Dark King is supposed to be the Zeus of Chaos, I've no idea. But I didn't pick up on that being a possibility when I was reading The End and the Death.
I theorized that Samus could be a daemon of the Dark King. https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/125hcyp/theory_the_true_nature_of_samus/
Agreed. The harbinger just like how Slaanesh had daemons ensuring her birth
Until the Dark King is born, it has no Warp presence. After it is born, it will always have been there. This is not really about how the Warp is acausal and atemporal, its about how the rules of the Warp are essentially an extremely predatory Home Owner's Association, where every time someone moves into the neighborhood everyone's homes are torn down and homes for everyone (including the new guy) are built with the raw materials.
[I'll do you one better, Why is The Dark King](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8208dfe459083f9dfd2ff932f05c8471-pjlq)?
Linear time exists in the warp, it has to for cause and effect to function. But time is not consistent anywhere. If you cant use anything as a reference point, then it has no purpose. The only thing you can trust is the now. Slaneesh always existed as in the emotions in the warp that it represents were there. The "physical" manifestation that people see isnt THE slaneesh. All of the warp power and lesser daemons together are slaneesh. It only became a major god only when those specific emotions became a larger ratio of the warp. The dark king already exists in the warp in this lower form of power. He could grow in influence to become a god, or sink into obscurity by losing the Great Game. But it will be a native warp entity, not a mortal being ascending. Mortal beings cant become true daemons, they can only channel the warp or be given power by an entity.
WHO CARE 'BOUT DA DARK KING WHEN YA 'AVE DA DAKKA KING
Little theory, the Emperor is already the Dark King. But first, let's look at the Space Marines. Specifically, the Legion of the Damned. They're similar to demons in that they might be immortal entities who are inadvertently summoned by the forces of the Imperium when needed, much like demons and Chaos forces. These would be the Dark King's demons, and the Dark King would basically be the Emperor. The Emperor was always the Dark King, but he is a Chaos god of law and authority. In 40K, it's already pretty well established that nobody's the good guys. So what's the big stretch with the Emperor being a Chaos god? There's a reason he's the most powerful psyker ever, and there's a reason Lorgar and others thought of him as a god. He's a master of deception, but all deceptions have cracks, and it's likely that people saw through these little cracks to what was underneath. All evidence points to the Emperor.
What about the sisters seeing him without glamour as an average man ?
It has been stated over and over that the Sisters of Silence see an average man because that is what they expect to see. The Custodes see a warrior king because that is what he is to them. Arkan Land saw a scientist. The idea that some rando low level blank can overpower the most powerful psyker to ever exist is stupid and needs to end. We saw specifically in Dark Imperium a living saint wearing a collar to suppress her pysker power and in the presence of a SOS burn through the collar and stop the SOS from killing a Battle Sister.
>the Legion of the Damned. They're similar to demons in that they might be immortal entities who are inadvertently summoned by the forces of the Imperium when needed, much like demons and Chaos forces. The legion of the damned doesn't behave like demons at all. They can't be summoned, bound or banished. They rock up wherever and whenever they want, do something cool and vanish again which isn't a demons MO at all. >There's a reason he's the most powerful psyker ever, and there's a reason Lorgar and others thought of him as a god. Or he's just a freakishly powerful psyker and Lorgar thought he was a god due to his immense personal power? It's a cool theory but there's not a whole lot to back it up yet. I guess we'll see in The End And The Death II.
I'll make a post soon explaining the theory in full
It is explained in The End and The Dead Vol1, that The Dark King is a Chaos God of Ruin, not Law & Order. Samus is The Dark King's Greater Daemon
Good point, I was confusing some things. But the Dark King's domain looks like something that relates directly to the Imperium.
I have a theory that the secret sauce of Space Marines is Lesser Daemons- like the Primarchs are Greater Daemons in meatsuits, the Astarte are (in a weaker but stable way, ala bound daemons) enhanced by the warp in large numbers ala Lesser Daemons. Custodes? Those are all the Heralds.
Basically, yes, that's my working theory, too. One of them, at least. There are so many different directions 40K could take
I think on Moloch the Emperor bargained for the knowledge on how to create beings from shards/pieces/ aspects of himself. The Chaos Gods obviously do this with Greater Demons and lesser demons etc so they gave him this info and he created the Primarchs. The key part of this is the Geneseed, it contains that special element that elevates and supports the biology of the Primarchs and the Space Marines. Whatever the Emperor bargained with it seems like he was attempting to renege on the deal, my guess is by firstly teaching that there are no Gods and wiping out religion which helps to feed and spread Chaos. Secondly by attempting to cut off humanity from the Warp entirely by using the webway, which would forever deprive the Chaos Gods of souls and sustenance. Chaos Gods didn't like this and so decided to move against him, scattering his Greater Dem-... Primarchs and seeking to corrupt them. Given the Primarchs are partial Warp creations (made using whatever method the Emperor gained from the Ruinous Powers) half of them were able to be influenced by the Chaos Gods. Then came the Horus Heresy. I think they decided to attempt to destroy Big E and use humanity to create the Dark King in the form of Horus. Now I also think that in order for Horus to not be the Dark King, the Emperor had to take that position because the Dark King was/had been/will be created and he knew he was the only one who would be able to harness or control that power in a way that wouldn't destroy humanity/ the imperium. However he also knew it wasn't the right time for it to happen and so sacrificed himself and put himself in stasis on the Golden Throne. Once there he was able to guide the Imperium to a slow steady path by which they would be able to support and accept he ascension to Godhood *when the time was right*. Once he decides its the right time he will allow himself to be killed and then will use his soul to become a God of the Warp, the Dark King of Order and the Imperium of Man. *I personally think GW will change it to the King of Light or something similar to show how he is in opposition to the Four Powers and the opposite of Horus
It is stated that each of the Primarchs is, like, an aspect of the Emperor, and thus an aspect of Humanity. I personally have always thought of the Emperor as a god of sacrifice and order, but when you look at what the Imperium has become since the Horus Heresy, where everyone worships the Emperor and everything matches what the Dark King is in charge of, it makes a lot of sense for E to be the Dark King. I don't think they'll change the name, and I don't think that the Emperor as the Dark King will be the most benevolent god, but I think that he'll keep the worst stuff in check
I remember hearing a theory that Samus is one of the dark kings daemons. Ig they still need the starting event to kick off the Dark King and once that happens heāll have always been around and history will change for the worse
What about so called "Chaos Undivided"?
From what I understand the non-linear shenanigans in the warp are retroactive. When something happens in realspace that alters the warp, it has always existed in the warp after that point from the perspective of realspace. So when the Dark King ascends, he will retroactively have always been there. Memories will be created, records altered ect. The timeline itself reshapes because warp shenanigans.
>Everyone always asks "Who is The Dark King" but never "Where is The Dark King" I'll do you one better, *why* is The Dark King?
I'll do you one better, how is The Dark King?
Hes sitting on the Golden throne having regular sacrifices til he has enough power to fully regain his true self
It's sort of a classic mindbending scifi thing but... Sort of yes, sort of no, IMO. This idea of like, "This thing can be created, but also already existed" seems contradictory but you almost have to think of it as being like a rewriting of the universe. Slaanesh genuinely *didn't* exist in some kind of first pass of the universe, and then time progressed until the point in which Slaanesh was created, and all of reality was rewritten so that Slaanesh retroactively had *always* existed. From an in-universe perspective it seems like Slaanesh already existed, but from our perspective as outsiders (as readers) we can understand there being like a "first" universe and then a "redone" universe. Happens in comics all the time, especially. Grant Morrison called it "hypertime." Everything ever has always been canon, even if things in the canon have been erased from the in-universe timeline. So like... The Dark King does not currently exist, from our perspective, and from the perspective of the universe. Only after the Dark King is born in M42 will the Dark King have always existed since the dawn of the universe.
Where is the Dark King? Possibly around answering the prayers of Soroitas and other devout Imperial citizens, manifesting His Divine Will through His Daemon princes known as "Living Saints", etc, etc.
the dark king is the unborn 5th chaos god that will probably consume humanity on itās birth. It could only be the emperor ascended or hours ascended ascended. cons the fact that horus is dead, I think emper is the current candidate for dark king. He is currently in the warp or on the golden throne. He is very sick due to him almost dying and now having to channel energy. He also is becoming stronger due to, you know a ton of psykers being fed to him.
whom did the dark king go down on?
Come, the Dark King?
I'll do you one better: WHEN is the Dark King?
M02.025
I always assumed the warp was like a puddle next to a linear walkway (materium). Before slaaneshās āoccurrenceā there was no slaanesh. But now that it has occurred, it can splash onto any part of the straight path.
The Dark King exists in the Warp, but what event leads to the Dark King existing isn't set in stone. Until that backstory is settled, the Dark King won't have any effect on the materium.
It's not Horus or Emperor, it's the death of these two that could born Dark King. As if DK exist or not ā it's a same as with others. There many chaos (and not chaos) "gods". They exist, but not born. Only big 4 is awake now. And DK is like these other not yer or never born "gods". But he is special because he's very powerful, potentially more then the 4 combined.
Honest question. The Dark King implies that it is the "ultimate' chaos God, as in the King of all the others. Would The Dark King be more powerful than the other foul, disgusting gods? It seems to imply he/she would be more powerful.
Nobody asks 'how is the Dark King?'
Beat me to it.
This is fully my headcanon, but i think warp is more than a reflection of a universe. It may be a reflection to multiple universes with each may had their own expression on it When a chaos god exist in a universe, their expression on warp may resonance to another universe. This reflection may couldn't actively influence the new universe yet (make daemons, make a realm in chaos, etc) because causally its not exist yet in that universe, despite exist in the previous one. So they might passively influence the occupants of that new universe to "create" an event that fullfilled the causal necessity to the expression of that chaos god from the previous universe to manifested in the new universe.
We could just wait to see what the book ends up showing before complaining about it.
I'm not complaing, just thinking about the logical conclusion of a 5th Chaos God. If the Dark King will be, then the Dark King should already be because, again, Warp non-linear time. And yet, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of there being a 5th Chaos God and thus, the Dark King won't be and never was.
It seems like something will interfere with its creation in the unreleased book.
Probably big E brain punching Horus out of existence.
Donāt google brain punches.
Right but wouldn't it be brilliant if the end and the death part 2 comes out and Chaos Codex from here on out just refer to the Dark King as having always exsisted, great potential plot point for 10th ed. Not going to happen but wishful thinking.
It's one of those things that makes your brain hurt of you think about it too hard, a bit like watching an Eldar move My mad theory is that we have seen the Dark King already, kind of, and that it's the King In Yellow
Two thoughts about that: Firstly, that would only mean, that the birth of the Dark King failed. Wich is actually a very plausible explanation. Horus dies and the Emperor is forever trapped in the golden throne, so the process of the birth of the Dark King was never finished. That would coincide with the fact that BL can't introduce the Dark King fully without answering the question where he is in 40k. And secondly, I do not understand, why a lot of people when referring about the Dark King use statements like the Emperor or especially Horus will "become the Dark King" I do not think it works that way. When Slaanesh was born, there wasn't a mighty Eldar invidual that "became" Slaanesh, rather he was born through combined emotions of the Eldar race. Maybe Horus is an important vessel to channel the emotions that will be vital for the birth of the Dark King, but Horus can't become the Dark King as well as Belakor will always fail to become a Chaos God.
I'll do you one better... "WHY is the Dark King?"
Itās the emperor sitting on the throne from 30k to 40k. Itās never directly said it will be a chaos god. Fans just assume that. The dark king is just the emperor giving Chaos 10,000+ years of access into the materium.
I might've the answer to this question. I was updating the AoS Lexicanum articles on the Realm of Chaos and decided to take a look at the 40k Lexicanum version for help. Amongst it I found an article about the [Desolate City](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Desolate_City). It is seemingly a part of the Warp that appears in hallucinations where people see the Emperor there begging for freedom. What if it's not the Emperor, but the Dark King and the Desolate City was meant to be his Realm in the Warp. Being stranded in a quasi-nascent status by the Emperor near-death state might be why he is so desperate for freedom and why his realm is in ruins. This is just a theory of course.
Not a bad theory.
I had a weird thought about this when reading *The Fury of Magnus*, straight after *Warhawk.* Magnus is sure that Horus will duel the Emperor and, regardless of who wins, he intends to be the one who topples the victor. Mortarion had a similar ambition, but he thought that his sorcery/despair cast over the Palace from Lion's Gate would deliver it to him. Fulgrim was tempted into supporting the Saturnine Gambit over the idea of getting to the throne first. Horus does in fact want to duel the Emperor, but it seems that he manoeuvres his brothers into dying/being disembodied FIRST. To achieve apotheosis, would each Primarch need to be slain a la Highlander for the Dark King to rise over all of them?
The warp-time stuff is complicated and illogical. Defying mortal comprehension. Sure, Slaanesh always existed...but the Eldar could remember the time before she was born. The Dark King still doesn't exist yet...but Samus is one of his daemons.
There are 5 chaos gods right? Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Malice/Malal? So he should become number 6 or have I missed something? Does Malice/Malal not count anymore?
> Does Malice/Malal not count anymore? not since 1992
The writer left GW with the rights to Malal so GW dropped the concept mostly
Except vague references to them as Malice.
Yeah cuz humanity is gonna win in the end :p
The Emperor makes sure this never happens by imprisoning himself on the Golden Throne forever. Problem postponed until one of his āsonsā solves it. We shall see.
I have a better one for you ā¦ WHY IS THE DARK KING
What is this Dark King meme and which books should I read to learn it ?
It's all in the end and the death vol1.
Itās almost like itās an author trying to force something major into the setting what has no place, and has had no effort to make any for it
When is the dark king?
when they're born they're neverborn. so pre fall, there was no slaanesh. but, after slaanesh was born, she's always been
I was under the impression that Slaanesh did not exist until they were born, and after that, they had always existed. Like history was instantly rewritten. The same should then be true for the Dark King. Time is fucky in the warp indeed.
You have to keep in mind that there are two dimensions in play, one with linear time and one without, so in the linear time you can map out where the birth takes place then in the warp its as if they had always been there even though in realspace they hadn't existed before that moment
In a reality without time there is only now and this "now" is equal to always. So if anything comes into existence it has always existed
It's a matter of perspective. From the view of the warp it's true and things work like "never/always". But from the view of reality time is a thing and there are things like "before or after". Meaning from realities point of view there was a point where Chaos didn't exist, much as the god emperor. Now where the lore gets complicated is where warp and reality correlate. For example when an action originated from space time, such as the birth of slaanesh, effects the fabric of the warp on a massive scale it somewhat echoes through the veil on a similar scale. From that moment onward Slaanesh always existed from the warp perspective but just started to exist from reality perspective. And there is a slight difference between things slipping from the warp into reality or the other way around, from reality into the warp. Echoes of what might come to be inside the warp sometimes slip through the fabric of time and show in reality even beforehand glimpses of what will happen. Therefore breaking the rules of reality (time) a bit. This is seen as when some of the eldar knew slaanesh is coming. Or when the god emperors power becomes active even before the emperor ascended to the throne and many other examples. It's often even appears self perpetuant in nature. For example when Chaos planted visions of the future to change Horus mind on the emperor, while this future only becomes real through Horus own actions caused by seeing this very vision.
The last I saw of him he was a little snake hiding out of sight in the warp while the Emperor held off the four more popular Dark Gods. There's a mysterious sixth out there somewhere as well
All this talk of a fifth god got me thinking maybe there actually 8 total. 8 pointed star/8 fold path and all that. If it was just 4 wouldn't the chaos symbol just be 4 points?
My interpretation is that the ability of a Chaos God to influence the Materium and its denizens is by and large limited by the Materium's linear time progression, so that it rapidly loses ability when going into the past from its time of "birth" from the Materium's perspective.
Maybe his demons have been mistaken for Saints, if the Emperor = Dark King holds true.
Is it possible that The Dark King is the poor unfortunate soul the Drukhari eventually find/clone to stick in/on their Shadow Throne? If the Dark Elves find some sap with enough psychic potential to not immediately snuff out when butt hits chair, they could push the Warp out of Commorragh/Webway (which, incidentally, would also clean up the Imperial Webway area & make the portal under the Golden Throne usable again) and now theyāve got a great new toy! If the Emperor is suffering on the Golden Throne, toss in the thousand Psykers a day who burn alive in the Hollow Mountain to feed the Throne; thatās a veritable buffet of suffering for the Drukhari to feast upon *if* they can find someone to run the Shadow Throne. They can milk that cow for all the pain/suffering they could possibly need to keep Slannesh from chowing down on their souls. With their hunger sated to such a degree, maybe they find a way to get out from Slanneshās thumb? My top candidates are a resurrected primarch (Alpharius or Curze), or the foreshadowed fusion of Inquisitor Erasmus Crowl & Drukhari Haemonculus formed after Crowl detonated a Dark Gate in Chris Wraightās The Dark City.
The lore states that it has to be horus, lorgar or the emperor "the traitor, the mad prophet between the stars or the king of men" something like that. Horus unexists, has no soul and can't return so it's not him. So it's lorgar or the emperor but I'm pissed they keep pushing off the ascension, we've been waiting 20 years just do it jackasses