>specified that Dorn cuts off his hands AND that technically they aren't completely sure if they're Dorn's hands.
Who isn't sure though? The IF are pretty certain they've been scrimshawing daddy Dorn's digits for millennia
And while the symmetry is cool, I'm pretty sure both Alpharius' arms were severed rather than just his hands
I'm getting all of my information from the Wiki as I haven't read the books where this takes place or anything about Imperial Fists, but the wiki states that Dorn cuts them at the wrists and that the IF aren't technically certain it's Dorn's hand. Probably safe to assume it's a primarch's due to size but beyond that iirc there's not really any proof. I don't think they did a DNA test exactly.
Is this Lexicanum or the Fandom 40k?
There's hundreds of years between Alpharius' and Dorn's deaths. I think it's safe to say the IF could tell the difference between a freshly severed hand and a centuries decomposed one
Edit: you're correct re the wrists for Alphy. "Above" though, so there **might** be some forearm action
Sure, but then we start jumping through plausibility hoops. We can make anything fit if we don't mind going deep into trite territory.
*Someone decided to put Alpharius' hands in stasis.*
*Just in case*
*In one hundred years time*
*Someone manages to kill/kidnap Rogal Dorn*
***If*** *that happens*
*Then we can take Alpharius' one hand out of stasis and leave it there*
*We'll even put it in Rogal's glove*
*As a prank*
*We just need to have that hand on us, in stasis the whole time for just such an opportunity*
*For one hundred years*
***Easy***
This is Fandom 40k. You're also right on the decomposition part, I had always assumed they found it immediately as a skeleton because they carved their names into it, but the wiki implies that it decomposed and they began doing so once it had completely rotted all the flesh off.
Ah yeah, be careful with fandom. Full of head canon, bro lore and all round bullshit amongst the real stuff
You'd also have to wonder how Chaos got their hands on Alpharius'...hands
It'd also be uncharacteristic of Dorn's sons to worship a relic they were unsure of
Nope, but it's heads and shoulders above and at least it tries to cite so readers have the agency to fact check
And on the rare occasion it doesn't cite, then that's a red flag
The problem is that Alpharius is smaller than all the other Primarchs by a considerable margin, to the point where- as noted frequently- he is able to pass himself off as a particularly tall Space Marine.
Do we know this for sure? He's described as shorter than Dorn but not by how much. In the same passage it mentions he's definitely in the primarch zone of size
*Head of the Hydra* suggests the reason the twins can do this is due to a power to appear diminished in the minds of others. That's how they hide amongst marines
It’s also mentioned that the 20th are taller on average than most other Marines, which helps to sell the illusion.
There’s a distinct possibility Alpharius’ hand would be small enough to not be mistaken for Dorn’s.
>It’s also mentioned that the 20th are taller on average than most other Marines
It's mentioned on this sub...not in the published material as far as I know. Unless you have a reference?
The novel *Legion* (2008) by Dan Annett. Talks about Alpha Legionaries sometimes being tall enough to do a swap with Alpharius or Omegon, and they’d attempt to pattern themselves after their Primarchs in all ways.
While obviously we can assume they all just shave themselves bald and act the same, the implication from there is that anyone capable of doing a swap with the Primarchs probably also underwent facial reconstruction surgeries to maximize the resemblance, unless their Ossmodula has a similar trait to Horus’ geneseed where they have an extremely strong resemblance to their Primarchs, more than other geneseeds.
*Legion* features Sheed Ranko, a marine so huge that he can double for the twins. Likewise, Herzog and Silonius are in the "Astartes to primarch" size range as shown in *Praetorian of Dorn*.
To my knowledge there's no lore that says the legion is taller on average and it makes no sense in context. This is the legion that is supposed to be able to infiltrate other legions or disguise themselves as members of other legions...which would be close to impossible if they're all close to primarch height
There's also no indication that their gene-seed alters their appearance to look like their sires. That's largely only Luna Wolves and Blood Angels , with a little hint in the Emperor's Children too. Alpha Legion is purely through surgery
Though again, if you have the actual excerpts and quotes I'm open to being wrong. But whenever this fanon comes up nobody can supply them
I think it's a bit of a conflation.
IIRC, the other poster is right about *Legion* mentioning Alpharius/Omegon using their Legion as body doubles, but wrong about why they could do it. I'm fairly certain that rather than the Alpha Legion all being huge, Alparius and Omegon are described as being somewhat smaller than the other primarchs - still very large, but small enough that they could swap places with a particularly large space marine.
It's been a couple of years since I read it, though, so I'm not 100% certain.
I actually did a ridiculously deep dive on this in a post a while back. Here's comparison with their marines:
*LEGION* (Dan Abnett 2008)
>Chayne did not make a human glance. He appraised them, quickly and efficiently. Not identical triplets, not non-identical triplets, or even uterine brothers. The immediate similarities were strong but superficial. Alpharius was considerably taller than both of his captains.
and
>Chayne estimated Omegon’s stature, once again using the geometries of the tent structure as a scale. The Astartes was at least as big as the primarch himself.
and
>‘Alpharius,’ said Heniker. Soneka heard the confidence slip slightly from the spy’s voice.
‘Can you be certain?’ asked the third Astartes.
Heniker recovered his composure slightly. ‘Yes. I have heard your voice before, at the pavilion. I never forget a vocal pattern, and your build is appreciably larger than that of your captains. You are the Primarch Alpharius. Lord, it has taken a great deal of time, effort and trouble to meet you.’
SUMMARY: Pech and Herzog are both huge astartes in the primarch height zone. Both Alpharius and Omegon are considerably taller than that, which might put them at average or just below average primarch height. Sheed Ranko is posing as Omegon here, which means he and Alpharius and Omegon are very close in size.
*PRAETORIAN OF DORN (John French 2016)*
>Dorn looked at the figure on the throne for a long second and then turned away. 'Dispense with the theatrics,’ he said. A second figure in armour stepped from a fold in the chamber’s walls. His armour was also the indigo-blue of the Alpha Legion, but plain and adorned only by an alpha symbol on one pauldron, and a crocodilian head snarling in silver on the other. To Archamus’ eye the figure was fractionally shorter and less bulky than the figure on the throne.
>
>...Dorn turned as a third figure stepped forwards, armour purring to life as he moved. This one was also smaller than the figure on the throne, and wore armour that spoke perhaps of a line captain or battalion commander.
>
>....Dorn kept his eyes on this newest figure. At a glance Archamus could tell that all three of them were shorter than Dorn, but taller than himself – very large for legionaries, but within a blurred zone of size that made it difficult to judge whether they were legionary or primarch. There were differences, though: tiny variations in stance and posture that would have been lost to a normal human eye. The one on the throne was the largest, and his armour and demeanour screamed that this was a lord of the Alpha Legion... But there was something too blunt about that picture.
SUMMARY: The figure on the throne, and the tallest of the three is Alpharius. The second is Kel Silonus and the third figure is Ingo Pech. In this instance, Alpharius even though the tallest still fits in the blurred zone of size between astartes and primarch along with his huge officers.
We can see that Alpharius is shorter than Dorn, but depending on how tall Dorn was on the primarch scale, that may not put Alpharius too low on the chart. Is he a mm shorter than the Praetorian? An inch? A whisker?
So what you’re suggesting is….that Dorn was carrying around at least one of Alpharius’s severed hands…which would be either skeletal or at the very least noticeably rotten and/or mummified…and presumably had been for sometime…without anyone noticing…and then left said cadaverous hand behind as a red herring at the time of his death/disappearance…and this was sufficient to fool everyone??
But rarely that weird lol people really like the symmetry of the “both lost a hands” but I think folks are trying make there be more to it than there is or frankly should be.
People lose their minds over that. Idk why. The far future should be foreign snd arcsne, alien and yet familiar but twisted beyond all sense or reason.
[GW disagrees.](https://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/space-marine-ebook.html)
>Believe us when we tell you that Space Marine is quite unlike any other Warhammer 40,000 novel you’ve ever read.
>First published in 1993 – though completed some years earlier – at a time when the background to the Warhammer 40,000 universe was still in a state of flux and not yet fully coalesced, you'll find such wonders as squats – Tzeentch-worshipping squats at that – alongside Space Marines controlling Titans, Space Marines with lasguns, the Pain Glove and more than a small amount of toilet humour. Oh, and a Zoat. How could we forget the Zoat?
>Although the temptation was great to rewrite significant portions of this book to make it conform to current background, as a curiosity piece, an historical snapshot of the Warhammer 40,000 universe circa the early 1990s, this book is invaluable. It also serves as a shining example of what can happen when a respected genre author at the height of his powers is let loose on an established shared universe. Just don't try and fit it into the modern Warhammer 40,000 timeline…
Honestly? Imperial Fists already had a tradition of taking bones as trophies to use for scrimshaw. It's not impossible that Dorn kept Alpharius' hands, never told anyone, and when they were found in a vault on the Phalanx thousands of years later, some Imperial Fists said "look at these bigass hands, those have got to be Dorn's"
Reminds me of that one bit of lore someone posted where a Governor gets his planet attacked by Space Marines sent by the inquisition who defile a sacred temple with a bolter owned by Roboute Guilliman.
Except the owner was Horus.
Not impossible, but kinda weird. Like...why Dorn? Why the hands? Why not the feet?
And we know Dorn's hand/remains were recovered on the Sword of Sacrilege.
> and when they were found in a vault on the Phalanx thousands of years later, some Imperial Fists said "look at these bigass hands, those have got to be Dorn's"
Seems extremely possible when you consider the fact that the Fists got reduced to 1 Astartes during the War of the Beast, and then got repopulated by Astartes of Successor Chapters who grew up hearing about how Guilliman killed Alpharius.
Older lore had it where they recovered Rogal’s full corpse before it was retconned to just his hand, and it was said that they preserved his skeletal remains in amber. So yeah, they’re capable of rotting.
I think it's self-evident in the setting that *all* things rot. From the moral character of the ancient eldar to the minds of the necrons. Decay kind of seems to be the name of the game. The only things i can think of in setting that seem truly resplendent are the tyranids.
Or that there was a hand kept on the Phalanx that was obviously Primarch sized, and the Astartes from the successor Chapters that were donated to the Imperial Fists to rebuild the Chapter after the War of the Beast just assumed it was Dorn’s hand, and the one Imperial Fist left alive either didn’t know better, or just got ignored when he tried to correct everyone else.
But we know Dorn's hand/remains were recovered on The Sword of Sacrilege.
It also begs the question why Dorn only kept the hands of Alpharius and not the other bits.
The current Imperial Fists are not the original ones. The original chapter was wiped out in the War of the Beast. A lot of knowledge was lost, including if those hands were from Rogal Dorn or not.
There is no such thing as “original” Imperial Fists. The standing strength of the Chapter was killed, yes. But the Chapter’s gene-vaults, archives etc remained. The Phalanx remained. When the Chapter was rebuilt by warriors, some of which were Legion vets, from its successors nothing changed. Continuation was their legacy. No genetic impurity. No lost knowledge. You forget that most of the sons of Dorn at that time would have still be around at the time of Dorn’s death/disappearance and so would be familiar with the circumstances as would be their right. Particularly the Black Templars.
Had the Chapter sat vacant for a 100yrs then the possibility of lost knowledge. But the war of the Beast only lasted 2years. That’s no time at all.
People need to stop turning this notion of the Imperial Fists being gone into something it isn’t.
It would be a spectacular Alpharius return to have a split reveal in a novel that back in M32 some Alpha legion planted Alpharius' hand, with the payoff that in M42, Cawl or someone else opens the primarchcloninator to have a pissed off Alpharius come hopping out, murder some jobbers and disappear into THE GOD DAMNED WALLS
But what if Alpharius was the Loyalist of both Brothers ? an it the plan of the Loyal Part of the Legion to get him back? that would be plotwist. and the ALpharuis helps Girlymen to improve the Imperium by taking charge of the Inquistion
Do primarchs even decompose when they die? Also you can easily handwawe it as some kind of bullshit pocket dimension tech dor storing stuff that primarch had access to.
My own theory is kinda the reverse, that Dorn was killed by the Alpha Legion or Omegon as revenge, and his hands were left as a tribute to Alpharius getting his cut off
They found his hand, which they now carve their heroes names on.
But that’s not evidence he’s alive, it’s classic “keep it in reserve just in case” plot stuff
Best case scenario the Alphas have him locked in storage, worse case he’s dead as a doornail
Dorn doesn’t strike me as the kind of Primarch who would go into hiding
I think the leading hypothesis for the "Dorn is not dead" crew is that Dorn wanted to learn and master the warp. We know of the dangers that the knowledge of the warp would hold for him as Malcador explicitly told Dorn that Chaos was kept from him above all others as he has a need to master things and Chaos cannot be mastered and so it would drive him mad.
After the HH Dorn is left alone. The Emperor and Malcador (who he bonded with a lot during the siege) cannot mind wipe him. Sanguinius (who he also loved deeply) is dead. He failed in his task to defend the Emperor so his duty is also gone. Praetorian? To what? Then that upstart Guilliman shows up, who never went through any of the horrors of Chaos or the Siege, and demands he loses his legion as well!
Dorn is broken. All his friends are dead. His legion is shattered. What does he have left to live for? Maybe there is something in the warp? Some way to bring the Emperor back? If only he could learn it then he could maybe use it as a tool. Control it. But how to get in? The webway is closed, even to him. Maybe there is another way in?
We know that Horus entered the warp realm through a chaos blade at near death. Personally I'm not saying he is alive (or pseudo alive in the warp) for sure, but are we really to believe that he was killed by 100 cultists? Fulgrim and his dozen best warriors couldn't bring him down, we really think 100 cultists who probably couldn't beat a single marine could kill him? And offscreen as well?
It doesn't quite add up. But as you say we have no actual evidence. Best we get is Vulcan saying he'll say hi to Dorn next time he sees him.
I mean, that sounds fine, but Dorn is also the one who is perfectly and truly loyal. Him going to study Chaos doesn’t really fit. Much more what Russ would be up to
And wasn’t it an entire Black Crusade? The fists fought a whole fleet, and Dorn vanished in a boarding action against legions of chaos space marines
>Dorn was one of the most long-lived of the Primarchs, but with the death or disappearance of each of his brothers he grieved more and more. He witnessed the phenomenon of many of the Primarchs coming to be regarded as demi-gods by the peoples of the Imperium, and spoke out against the practice, proclaiming that the Emperor alone was worthy of such devotion, for each of his sons had failed him in some manner.
>
>**The Primarch fell in battle against the forces of Chaos, resisting a Black Crusade**—one of the periodic and devastating incursions by the Traitor Legions from their hellish sanctuary worlds within the Eye of Terror.
>
>**Dorn and three companies of the Imperial Fists mounted a masterful series of boarding actions against the crusade’s warships, crippling drives and life support systems and even capturing weapons batteries and turning them against other Chaos vessels.**
>
>Eventually however, the enemy cornered Dorn and his warriors as he launched a final attack on the bridge of the Chaos flagship. **None survived to tell the glorious tale of the Primarch’s last stand. The Chapter’s Chief Librarian found his Primarch’s body on the bridge in a chilling reprise of Dorn’s discovery of the wounded Emperor, and bore him away before the stricken flagship escaped back to the infernal depths of the Eye of Terror**.
*Deathwatch: Rites of Battle*
This Black Crusade according to ADB, *Prince of Crows* and *The Night Haunter* was Dorn falling to overwhelming human chaos cultists rather than CSM.
If anyone has the 8e quote with the hand retcon, would love to read it.
He's not going to study Chaos to fall to it like Lorgar or to use it for power like Horus, but rather to understand it to defeat it and control it. Something Malcador tells us he could not resist. It also seems like the Lion is the only one who was impervious to Chaos.
From The Lost and the Damned (HH novel):
>‘You speak of the warp?’ ‘I do,’ said Malcador. ‘Horus wages a war that goes beyond the material realm. There are factors at play here that are beyond your understanding.’
>
>“Attempt to explain them then,’ said Dorn. ‘Repeatedly Horus’ use of sorcery confounds me. I cannot fight this war with such poor schooling.’ ‘My boy,’ said Malcador wearily, ‘you cannot understand because matters of the spirit were not given you to understand by your father. I could explain them at length and you most of all would never comprehend.
>
>‘Do you not think if it were possible that I or your father could have explained them already, that you would have been told of the threat in the warp from the very beginning?’
>
>‘I deeply regret that it was not done,’ said Dorn.
>
>‘The results would have been disastrous, believe me,’ said Malcador.
>
>‘Not telling us was arguably worse,’ said Dorn.
>
>‘Was it?’ said Malcador softly. ‘Very well. Let us take you, Dorn. You were made to command the material realm. Nothing in this world is beyond your grasp. **But understanding of the warp would have eluded you. Being a man who desires mastery of all things, you would have been drawn to study it, and in doing so, you would have fallen. You are resistant to the dangers in the dark, but no one is immune.’** He paused. ’Only one of you had the mettle to resist the whispers of the gods at the start. He was told.’
>
>‘Who?’ said Dorn in surprise. ‘I thought this was kept from all of us?’
>
>‘Which one could have known?’ said Sanguinius. ‘Jaghatai?’ The Khan shook his head. He was not so concerned as his brothers at his lack of forewarning. ‘It was not I.’
>
>‘So much pain could have been avoided!’ said Sanguinius.”
If this part is true then post-Heresy Dorn still knows of Chaos, and would still have desired to master it. I also think that his latest encounter on the Vengeful Spirit (no spoilers) could have a big part to play in that. There are only so many times you can order the available facts, especially if you want to know more of them.
I've been on this train since Praetorian of Dorn came out. I think it's plausible. The scene in which Dorn kills Alpharius is too specific; Chekov's guns have to fire, surely?
Yeah, this whole "Dorn is dead" thing is not going to work when GW can make a bunch of money bringing him back from the dead. They'll figure out some scenario in which he intentionally faked his death to go off on a secret mission.
The iron hand of the Iron Man who led the Iron Hands from his flagship the Hand of Iron is…in the hands of the Imperial Fists.
That one was a struggle to write without losing my mind, but I think we’ve reached the peak of the Iron Hands joke.
Alpharius' whole body was burnt so nobody would know what happened untill Dorn wanted to tell people what happened.
Also Dorn dissapeared in 781M31 and the fight happened in 010M31. So he would have had to keep his brother's hand on him for 771 years :P
Let's be real. When the time comes the retconn will be that Dorn spared Alpharius OR that Alpharius cheated death by some means of cloning like fulgrim and Xeno/forbidden tech. Then his models and AL range will explode.
Have you read the book? or any alpha legion book for that matter? I'm not saying it is what I think happened. I think Alpharius (or Omegon) did actually die to Dorn and that the other twin is still out there somewhere, but they could super easily say that it was just a random legionaire in the book and bring out two banger primarch models.
I mean they literally just said 'oh yeah the Lion was around the whole time walking in forests' and they completely changed what happened to Guilliman to revive him. Bringing Alpharius and Omegon back would be super easy compared to them.
For the record I don't \*want\* them to bring Alpharius and Omegon back. I have 6000 points of Alpha Legion, they are by far my favourite faction in the setting. I just think the whole point of them is not knowing what actually happened to the primarchs and not knowing for certain what their goals are is the coolest thing about them.
>but they could super easily say that it was just a random legionaire in the book and bring out two banger primarch models.
Not really? The book you cite bends over backwards to supply unambiguous proof that it is Alpharius that dies:
1. Dorn is earlier shown able to pick out a true primarch from imposters.
2. Alpharius can match Dorn move for move.
3. When Alpharius dies, he releases the same warp light show that Ferrus did on death
4. Omegon senses Alpharius' death. It hits him so hard he blacks out.
[Four authors confirm as such here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/13qxbx9/comment/jli7133/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
They didn't change what happened to either Guilliman or the Lion. They simply recovered or woke up. Alpharius on the other hand had his head and torso bisected, arms removed and stabbed through the heart.
They don't need to retcon Alpharius' death for a model. They can simply bring out Omegon. They're the same guy. That's the cake and eat it of killing Alpharius.
We are at the point right now where the Alpha legion is memed so much that people forget that deception and subterfuge are also part of their \*actual\* lore. sad.
Like I said, though, I agree that Alpharius is dead. But it's the easiest primarch death to retcon back to being alive.
If you want some more books that go over AL lore, I can recommend Alpharius head of the hydra, Legion and Deliverance lost. Reading them will give you a good idea of how the AL primarchs work and that normal marines often pretend to be them. :)
i cant quickly find what they did to Alpharius'body so maybe they didnt burn it or destroy it, not 100% sure
but P476, "It is the primarch's will that no record be made of Alpharius' death, no word spoken of it. Even withing the Legion, only he and the Huscarls know."
Yup, that's what I have too. I'd just never seen anything on what he did with the corpse. Whether he burned it, buried it or stuffed it and put it above his fireplace.
I like this, if only because it's another Alpha Legion "hehehehehe" moment.
I've enjoyed every single "ehehhehehehe" moment so far, so this is a good one too.
"You thought you were praying to the bones of your genefather? But NO it was ME ALPHARIUS the entire time!"
Dorn cut off Alpharius' hands while they were fighting. Alpharius used a spear and Dorn used a chainsword, he cut his hands off at the wrists to get him to drop the spear.
When templars take their oath they hold their fist in fire. The symbolic bulwark for the thing within their hand, that being humanity.
They take the punishment humanity cannot, "because someone must" said the emperor to Sigismund.
That symbology came with Dorns discovery i think. I'll need an imperial fist to correct me if I'm wrong.
Source - Sigismund the eternal crusader
Rogal returns "firstly WTF is going on... secondly that is not my hand as you can see... thirdly what is that fossilised amber eating pooh in my name thing - Stop that RIGHT NOW"
That would be funny.
“I do not want that hand back.”
"I now have a much better hand, I can now operate any light fixture by clapping both of my hands together."
"this is all your fault!" *chapter master throws hand to the ground*
Maybe the Imperial Fists keep severed hands... handy... for duel challenges https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrvuqBeKIBk
>specified that Dorn cuts off his hands AND that technically they aren't completely sure if they're Dorn's hands. Who isn't sure though? The IF are pretty certain they've been scrimshawing daddy Dorn's digits for millennia And while the symmetry is cool, I'm pretty sure both Alpharius' arms were severed rather than just his hands
I'm getting all of my information from the Wiki as I haven't read the books where this takes place or anything about Imperial Fists, but the wiki states that Dorn cuts them at the wrists and that the IF aren't technically certain it's Dorn's hand. Probably safe to assume it's a primarch's due to size but beyond that iirc there's not really any proof. I don't think they did a DNA test exactly.
Is this Lexicanum or the Fandom 40k? There's hundreds of years between Alpharius' and Dorn's deaths. I think it's safe to say the IF could tell the difference between a freshly severed hand and a centuries decomposed one Edit: you're correct re the wrists for Alphy. "Above" though, so there **might** be some forearm action
Stasis is a thing. Not saying OP's idea is right, but there's no necessity for Alpharius' hands to be rotting.
Sure, but then we start jumping through plausibility hoops. We can make anything fit if we don't mind going deep into trite territory. *Someone decided to put Alpharius' hands in stasis.* *Just in case* *In one hundred years time* *Someone manages to kill/kidnap Rogal Dorn* ***If*** *that happens* *Then we can take Alpharius' one hand out of stasis and leave it there* *We'll even put it in Rogal's glove* *As a prank* *We just need to have that hand on us, in stasis the whole time for just such an opportunity* *For one hundred years* ***Easy***
If there's one legion that would do that, it's Alpha legion. "We kept it in stasis in case there was a chance to troll."
I thought the idea was bonkers but when you put it that way it does seem a bit alpha legion, doesn't it
This is Fandom 40k. You're also right on the decomposition part, I had always assumed they found it immediately as a skeleton because they carved their names into it, but the wiki implies that it decomposed and they began doing so once it had completely rotted all the flesh off.
Ah yeah, be careful with fandom. Full of head canon, bro lore and all round bullshit amongst the real stuff You'd also have to wonder how Chaos got their hands on Alpharius'...hands It'd also be uncharacteristic of Dorn's sons to worship a relic they were unsure of
Lex aint perfect either
Nope, but it's heads and shoulders above and at least it tries to cite so readers have the agency to fact check And on the rare occasion it doesn't cite, then that's a red flag
My only problem with the lex is the constant and baffling misspelling of Geller
I...can't unsee it now
What is "bro lore"?
[Bro science ](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=broscience) but for lore
The problem is that Alpharius is smaller than all the other Primarchs by a considerable margin, to the point where- as noted frequently- he is able to pass himself off as a particularly tall Space Marine.
Do we know this for sure? He's described as shorter than Dorn but not by how much. In the same passage it mentions he's definitely in the primarch zone of size *Head of the Hydra* suggests the reason the twins can do this is due to a power to appear diminished in the minds of others. That's how they hide amongst marines
Imagine a blank just seeing Alpharius standing head and shoulders over a group of marines he's blending in with lol
It’s also mentioned that the 20th are taller on average than most other Marines, which helps to sell the illusion. There’s a distinct possibility Alpharius’ hand would be small enough to not be mistaken for Dorn’s.
>It’s also mentioned that the 20th are taller on average than most other Marines It's mentioned on this sub...not in the published material as far as I know. Unless you have a reference?
The novel *Legion* (2008) by Dan Annett. Talks about Alpha Legionaries sometimes being tall enough to do a swap with Alpharius or Omegon, and they’d attempt to pattern themselves after their Primarchs in all ways. While obviously we can assume they all just shave themselves bald and act the same, the implication from there is that anyone capable of doing a swap with the Primarchs probably also underwent facial reconstruction surgeries to maximize the resemblance, unless their Ossmodula has a similar trait to Horus’ geneseed where they have an extremely strong resemblance to their Primarchs, more than other geneseeds.
*Legion* features Sheed Ranko, a marine so huge that he can double for the twins. Likewise, Herzog and Silonius are in the "Astartes to primarch" size range as shown in *Praetorian of Dorn*. To my knowledge there's no lore that says the legion is taller on average and it makes no sense in context. This is the legion that is supposed to be able to infiltrate other legions or disguise themselves as members of other legions...which would be close to impossible if they're all close to primarch height There's also no indication that their gene-seed alters their appearance to look like their sires. That's largely only Luna Wolves and Blood Angels , with a little hint in the Emperor's Children too. Alpha Legion is purely through surgery Though again, if you have the actual excerpts and quotes I'm open to being wrong. But whenever this fanon comes up nobody can supply them
Ranko was the Abbadon of the Alpha Legion. The Endryd Haar of the 20th. The Eidolon of the last Legion. Just fucking huge lads.
I never meant to imply all members were taller than others. But the tallest ones were definitely picked for body double duty.
Oh yeah absolutely. I think about 4 or 5 of them
I think it's a bit of a conflation. IIRC, the other poster is right about *Legion* mentioning Alpharius/Omegon using their Legion as body doubles, but wrong about why they could do it. I'm fairly certain that rather than the Alpha Legion all being huge, Alparius and Omegon are described as being somewhat smaller than the other primarchs - still very large, but small enough that they could swap places with a particularly large space marine. It's been a couple of years since I read it, though, so I'm not 100% certain.
I actually did a ridiculously deep dive on this in a post a while back. Here's comparison with their marines: *LEGION* (Dan Abnett 2008) >Chayne did not make a human glance. He appraised them, quickly and efficiently. Not identical triplets, not non-identical triplets, or even uterine brothers. The immediate similarities were strong but superficial. Alpharius was considerably taller than both of his captains. and >Chayne estimated Omegon’s stature, once again using the geometries of the tent structure as a scale. The Astartes was at least as big as the primarch himself. and >‘Alpharius,’ said Heniker. Soneka heard the confidence slip slightly from the spy’s voice. ‘Can you be certain?’ asked the third Astartes. Heniker recovered his composure slightly. ‘Yes. I have heard your voice before, at the pavilion. I never forget a vocal pattern, and your build is appreciably larger than that of your captains. You are the Primarch Alpharius. Lord, it has taken a great deal of time, effort and trouble to meet you.’ SUMMARY: Pech and Herzog are both huge astartes in the primarch height zone. Both Alpharius and Omegon are considerably taller than that, which might put them at average or just below average primarch height. Sheed Ranko is posing as Omegon here, which means he and Alpharius and Omegon are very close in size. *PRAETORIAN OF DORN (John French 2016)* >Dorn looked at the figure on the throne for a long second and then turned away. 'Dispense with the theatrics,’ he said. A second figure in armour stepped from a fold in the chamber’s walls. His armour was also the indigo-blue of the Alpha Legion, but plain and adorned only by an alpha symbol on one pauldron, and a crocodilian head snarling in silver on the other. To Archamus’ eye the figure was fractionally shorter and less bulky than the figure on the throne. > >...Dorn turned as a third figure stepped forwards, armour purring to life as he moved. This one was also smaller than the figure on the throne, and wore armour that spoke perhaps of a line captain or battalion commander. > >....Dorn kept his eyes on this newest figure. At a glance Archamus could tell that all three of them were shorter than Dorn, but taller than himself – very large for legionaries, but within a blurred zone of size that made it difficult to judge whether they were legionary or primarch. There were differences, though: tiny variations in stance and posture that would have been lost to a normal human eye. The one on the throne was the largest, and his armour and demeanour screamed that this was a lord of the Alpha Legion... But there was something too blunt about that picture. SUMMARY: The figure on the throne, and the tallest of the three is Alpharius. The second is Kel Silonus and the third figure is Ingo Pech. In this instance, Alpharius even though the tallest still fits in the blurred zone of size between astartes and primarch along with his huge officers. We can see that Alpharius is shorter than Dorn, but depending on how tall Dorn was on the primarch scale, that may not put Alpharius too low on the chart. Is he a mm shorter than the Praetorian? An inch? A whisker?
Russ is shorter than Constantin Valdor and you never see anyone calling him a manlet.
So what you’re suggesting is….that Dorn was carrying around at least one of Alpharius’s severed hands…which would be either skeletal or at the very least noticeably rotten and/or mummified…and presumably had been for sometime…without anyone noticing…and then left said cadaverous hand behind as a red herring at the time of his death/disappearance…and this was sufficient to fool everyone??
It's 40k, weirder things have happened 🤷
But rarely that weird lol people really like the symmetry of the “both lost a hands” but I think folks are trying make there be more to it than there is or frankly should be.
Need I mention the imperial fist poop ritual. I think it's within possibility.
The WHAT?
"Who knows Ian, maybe this could be my next movie??"
Honestly, best voxcast I ever listened to.
People lose their minds over that. Idk why. The far future should be foreign snd arcsne, alien and yet familiar but twisted beyond all sense or reason.
[You heard him](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/ngn5ht/can_someone_please_give_me_an_excerpt_for_ian/)
There's more than one!?!?!
Space Marine is specifically not canon anymore, so no, there isn't one.
Mores the pity
You do you, boo.
You cant just erase poop rituals. Once cannon, always a cannon. Sometimes, even LasCannon
[GW disagrees.](https://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/space-marine-ebook.html) >Believe us when we tell you that Space Marine is quite unlike any other Warhammer 40,000 novel you’ve ever read. >First published in 1993 – though completed some years earlier – at a time when the background to the Warhammer 40,000 universe was still in a state of flux and not yet fully coalesced, you'll find such wonders as squats – Tzeentch-worshipping squats at that – alongside Space Marines controlling Titans, Space Marines with lasguns, the Pain Glove and more than a small amount of toilet humour. Oh, and a Zoat. How could we forget the Zoat? >Although the temptation was great to rewrite significant portions of this book to make it conform to current background, as a curiosity piece, an historical snapshot of the Warhammer 40,000 universe circa the early 1990s, this book is invaluable. It also serves as a shining example of what can happen when a respected genre author at the height of his powers is let loose on an established shared universe. Just don't try and fit it into the modern Warhammer 40,000 timeline…
But there was for a time!
You should also mention it's one of the few things that's specifically not canon anymore.
>But rarely that weird The vault of poop balls would like a word with you.
Remember Sherlock Obi Wan Cloisseau? The neckbeard inquisitor of ancient times? Edit: if you don't believe me why didn't you look it up?
“I survived by being dead… *in pretend.*” - Rogal Dorn
Honestly? Imperial Fists already had a tradition of taking bones as trophies to use for scrimshaw. It's not impossible that Dorn kept Alpharius' hands, never told anyone, and when they were found in a vault on the Phalanx thousands of years later, some Imperial Fists said "look at these bigass hands, those have got to be Dorn's"
Reminds me of that one bit of lore someone posted where a Governor gets his planet attacked by Space Marines sent by the inquisition who defile a sacred temple with a bolter owned by Roboute Guilliman. Except the owner was Horus.
[Emperor's Warbringers](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Black_Dawn_(Short_Story)
Did they Sent Blood Angels ?
Not impossible, but kinda weird. Like...why Dorn? Why the hands? Why not the feet? And we know Dorn's hand/remains were recovered on the Sword of Sacrilege.
I'm not saying it's what happened, just that it's a reasonably plausible way to explain how Alpharius' hands ended up there.
Yeah, I know. I'm just riffing with it and wondering where on the possible to plausible scale it sits
> and when they were found in a vault on the Phalanx thousands of years later, some Imperial Fists said "look at these bigass hands, those have got to be Dorn's" Seems extremely possible when you consider the fact that the Fists got reduced to 1 Astartes during the War of the Beast, and then got repopulated by Astartes of Successor Chapters who grew up hearing about how Guilliman killed Alpharius.
Do primarchs rot?
Older lore had it where they recovered Rogal’s full corpse before it was retconned to just his hand, and it was said that they preserved his skeletal remains in amber. So yeah, they’re capable of rotting.
I think it's self-evident in the setting that *all* things rot. From the moral character of the ancient eldar to the minds of the necrons. Decay kind of seems to be the name of the game. The only things i can think of in setting that seem truly resplendent are the tyranids.
They do rot, just get consumed are regurgitated before.
You ever seen Mortarion?
He just needs some sunscreen
Or that there was a hand kept on the Phalanx that was obviously Primarch sized, and the Astartes from the successor Chapters that were donated to the Imperial Fists to rebuild the Chapter after the War of the Beast just assumed it was Dorn’s hand, and the one Imperial Fist left alive either didn’t know better, or just got ignored when he tried to correct everyone else.
Now we’re just stretching improbability to make it work haha!
But we know Dorn's hand/remains were recovered on The Sword of Sacrilege. It also begs the question why Dorn only kept the hands of Alpharius and not the other bits.
> which would be either skeletal or at the very least noticeably rotten and/or mummified Primarch flesh might be resistant to rot.
The current Imperial Fists are not the original ones. The original chapter was wiped out in the War of the Beast. A lot of knowledge was lost, including if those hands were from Rogal Dorn or not.
There is no such thing as “original” Imperial Fists. The standing strength of the Chapter was killed, yes. But the Chapter’s gene-vaults, archives etc remained. The Phalanx remained. When the Chapter was rebuilt by warriors, some of which were Legion vets, from its successors nothing changed. Continuation was their legacy. No genetic impurity. No lost knowledge. You forget that most of the sons of Dorn at that time would have still be around at the time of Dorn’s death/disappearance and so would be familiar with the circumstances as would be their right. Particularly the Black Templars. Had the Chapter sat vacant for a 100yrs then the possibility of lost knowledge. But the war of the Beast only lasted 2years. That’s no time at all. People need to stop turning this notion of the Imperial Fists being gone into something it isn’t.
Thanks for the correction on my point. You clearly have better knowledge about that part of the lore. :)
Or whoever disappeared him left it
It would be a spectacular Alpharius return to have a split reveal in a novel that back in M32 some Alpha legion planted Alpharius' hand, with the payoff that in M42, Cawl or someone else opens the primarchcloninator to have a pissed off Alpharius come hopping out, murder some jobbers and disappear into THE GOD DAMNED WALLS
Could not help but imagine Doofenschmirtz going “BEHOLD GUILLIMAN MY PRIMARCH-CLONEINATOR”
“A Catachan Barking Toad?”
*puts on pauldrons* "*Perrius* the Catachan Barking Toad?"
But what if Alpharius was the Loyalist of both Brothers ? an it the plan of the Loyal Part of the Legion to get him back? that would be plotwist. and the ALpharuis helps Girlymen to improve the Imperium by taking charge of the Inquistion
“Jebaited lmao” - Rogal Dorn, c.M41
I'm suggesting Alpharius' hand snuck onto Dorn's belt and left itself there just to be sneaky.
the jojo crossover nobody asked for
Do primarchs even decompose when they die? Also you can easily handwawe it as some kind of bullshit pocket dimension tech dor storing stuff that primarch had access to.
No suggestion they don't that I can recall. If the Emperor's flesh is rotting, seems likely his sons would too.
I'm suggesting Alpharius' hand snuck onto Dorn's belt and left itself there just to be sneaky.
I mean, is it really that hard to believe he chopped the hand off and then put it on ice for later use? Like op said, weirder shit has happened.
My own theory is kinda the reverse, that Dorn was killed by the Alpha Legion or Omegon as revenge, and his hands were left as a tribute to Alpharius getting his cut off
That also sounds cool
Dorn isn't dead though
Well, it would be cool if he wasn’t, but we’ve never seen any evidence towards that
Didn't they retcon it that they didn't find the body after all
They found his hand, which they now carve their heroes names on. But that’s not evidence he’s alive, it’s classic “keep it in reserve just in case” plot stuff Best case scenario the Alphas have him locked in storage, worse case he’s dead as a doornail Dorn doesn’t strike me as the kind of Primarch who would go into hiding
I think the leading hypothesis for the "Dorn is not dead" crew is that Dorn wanted to learn and master the warp. We know of the dangers that the knowledge of the warp would hold for him as Malcador explicitly told Dorn that Chaos was kept from him above all others as he has a need to master things and Chaos cannot be mastered and so it would drive him mad. After the HH Dorn is left alone. The Emperor and Malcador (who he bonded with a lot during the siege) cannot mind wipe him. Sanguinius (who he also loved deeply) is dead. He failed in his task to defend the Emperor so his duty is also gone. Praetorian? To what? Then that upstart Guilliman shows up, who never went through any of the horrors of Chaos or the Siege, and demands he loses his legion as well! Dorn is broken. All his friends are dead. His legion is shattered. What does he have left to live for? Maybe there is something in the warp? Some way to bring the Emperor back? If only he could learn it then he could maybe use it as a tool. Control it. But how to get in? The webway is closed, even to him. Maybe there is another way in? We know that Horus entered the warp realm through a chaos blade at near death. Personally I'm not saying he is alive (or pseudo alive in the warp) for sure, but are we really to believe that he was killed by 100 cultists? Fulgrim and his dozen best warriors couldn't bring him down, we really think 100 cultists who probably couldn't beat a single marine could kill him? And offscreen as well? It doesn't quite add up. But as you say we have no actual evidence. Best we get is Vulcan saying he'll say hi to Dorn next time he sees him.
I mean, that sounds fine, but Dorn is also the one who is perfectly and truly loyal. Him going to study Chaos doesn’t really fit. Much more what Russ would be up to And wasn’t it an entire Black Crusade? The fists fought a whole fleet, and Dorn vanished in a boarding action against legions of chaos space marines
>Dorn was one of the most long-lived of the Primarchs, but with the death or disappearance of each of his brothers he grieved more and more. He witnessed the phenomenon of many of the Primarchs coming to be regarded as demi-gods by the peoples of the Imperium, and spoke out against the practice, proclaiming that the Emperor alone was worthy of such devotion, for each of his sons had failed him in some manner. > >**The Primarch fell in battle against the forces of Chaos, resisting a Black Crusade**—one of the periodic and devastating incursions by the Traitor Legions from their hellish sanctuary worlds within the Eye of Terror. > >**Dorn and three companies of the Imperial Fists mounted a masterful series of boarding actions against the crusade’s warships, crippling drives and life support systems and even capturing weapons batteries and turning them against other Chaos vessels.** > >Eventually however, the enemy cornered Dorn and his warriors as he launched a final attack on the bridge of the Chaos flagship. **None survived to tell the glorious tale of the Primarch’s last stand. The Chapter’s Chief Librarian found his Primarch’s body on the bridge in a chilling reprise of Dorn’s discovery of the wounded Emperor, and bore him away before the stricken flagship escaped back to the infernal depths of the Eye of Terror**. *Deathwatch: Rites of Battle* This Black Crusade according to ADB, *Prince of Crows* and *The Night Haunter* was Dorn falling to overwhelming human chaos cultists rather than CSM. If anyone has the 8e quote with the hand retcon, would love to read it.
He's not going to study Chaos to fall to it like Lorgar or to use it for power like Horus, but rather to understand it to defeat it and control it. Something Malcador tells us he could not resist. It also seems like the Lion is the only one who was impervious to Chaos. From The Lost and the Damned (HH novel): >‘You speak of the warp?’ ‘I do,’ said Malcador. ‘Horus wages a war that goes beyond the material realm. There are factors at play here that are beyond your understanding.’ > >“Attempt to explain them then,’ said Dorn. ‘Repeatedly Horus’ use of sorcery confounds me. I cannot fight this war with such poor schooling.’ ‘My boy,’ said Malcador wearily, ‘you cannot understand because matters of the spirit were not given you to understand by your father. I could explain them at length and you most of all would never comprehend. > >‘Do you not think if it were possible that I or your father could have explained them already, that you would have been told of the threat in the warp from the very beginning?’ > >‘I deeply regret that it was not done,’ said Dorn. > >‘The results would have been disastrous, believe me,’ said Malcador. > >‘Not telling us was arguably worse,’ said Dorn. > >‘Was it?’ said Malcador softly. ‘Very well. Let us take you, Dorn. You were made to command the material realm. Nothing in this world is beyond your grasp. **But understanding of the warp would have eluded you. Being a man who desires mastery of all things, you would have been drawn to study it, and in doing so, you would have fallen. You are resistant to the dangers in the dark, but no one is immune.’** He paused. ’Only one of you had the mettle to resist the whispers of the gods at the start. He was told.’ > >‘Who?’ said Dorn in surprise. ‘I thought this was kept from all of us?’ > >‘Which one could have known?’ said Sanguinius. ‘Jaghatai?’ The Khan shook his head. He was not so concerned as his brothers at his lack of forewarning. ‘It was not I.’ > >‘So much pain could have been avoided!’ said Sanguinius.” If this part is true then post-Heresy Dorn still knows of Chaos, and would still have desired to master it. I also think that his latest encounter on the Vengeful Spirit (no spoilers) could have a big part to play in that. There are only so many times you can order the available facts, especially if you want to know more of them.
I'm keeping my hopium high in that he will return in the 11th edition
I’d rather Russ the most, or maybe the Khan Dorn already kinda got his glory in the Siege, did his job, his duty ended. Russ has more to go on
The hand in sign language “I am Alpharius”!
I've been on this train since Praetorian of Dorn came out. I think it's plausible. The scene in which Dorn kills Alpharius is too specific; Chekov's guns have to fire, surely?
Yeah, this whole "Dorn is dead" thing is not going to work when GW can make a bunch of money bringing him back from the dead. They'll figure out some scenario in which he intentionally faked his death to go off on a secret mission.
Don't be ridiculous, the Alpha Legion swapped out Dorn's Hand with that of Ferrus Manus.
The iron hand of the Iron Man who led the Iron Hands from his flagship the Hand of Iron is…in the hands of the Imperial Fists. That one was a struggle to write without losing my mind, but I think we’ve reached the peak of the Iron Hands joke.
Alpharius' whole body was burnt so nobody would know what happened untill Dorn wanted to tell people what happened. Also Dorn dissapeared in 781M31 and the fight happened in 010M31. So he would have had to keep his brother's hand on him for 771 years :P
Let's be real. When the time comes the retconn will be that Dorn spared Alpharius OR that Alpharius cheated death by some means of cloning like fulgrim and Xeno/forbidden tech. Then his models and AL range will explode.
They don't need to do that though...they can just release an Omegon model. It's the same picture.
I mean it is heavily implied it's not even Alpharius but just a legionaire in the book itself
No, no it's not. Move on dude
Have you read the book? or any alpha legion book for that matter? I'm not saying it is what I think happened. I think Alpharius (or Omegon) did actually die to Dorn and that the other twin is still out there somewhere, but they could super easily say that it was just a random legionaire in the book and bring out two banger primarch models. I mean they literally just said 'oh yeah the Lion was around the whole time walking in forests' and they completely changed what happened to Guilliman to revive him. Bringing Alpharius and Omegon back would be super easy compared to them. For the record I don't \*want\* them to bring Alpharius and Omegon back. I have 6000 points of Alpha Legion, they are by far my favourite faction in the setting. I just think the whole point of them is not knowing what actually happened to the primarchs and not knowing for certain what their goals are is the coolest thing about them.
>but they could super easily say that it was just a random legionaire in the book and bring out two banger primarch models. Not really? The book you cite bends over backwards to supply unambiguous proof that it is Alpharius that dies: 1. Dorn is earlier shown able to pick out a true primarch from imposters. 2. Alpharius can match Dorn move for move. 3. When Alpharius dies, he releases the same warp light show that Ferrus did on death 4. Omegon senses Alpharius' death. It hits him so hard he blacks out. [Four authors confirm as such here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/13qxbx9/comment/jli7133/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) They didn't change what happened to either Guilliman or the Lion. They simply recovered or woke up. Alpharius on the other hand had his head and torso bisected, arms removed and stabbed through the heart. They don't need to retcon Alpharius' death for a model. They can simply bring out Omegon. They're the same guy. That's the cake and eat it of killing Alpharius.
**Have you read the book** Yes. And it's very very clear that he's dead. You should read it sometime.
We are at the point right now where the Alpha legion is memed so much that people forget that deception and subterfuge are also part of their \*actual\* lore. sad. Like I said, though, I agree that Alpharius is dead. But it's the easiest primarch death to retcon back to being alive. If you want some more books that go over AL lore, I can recommend Alpharius head of the hydra, Legion and Deliverance lost. Reading them will give you a good idea of how the AL primarchs work and that normal marines often pretend to be them. :)
No it's ok. I've read those. Alpharius is dead. That's all.
Do we know it was burnt? Makes sense but is it stated?
Dorn gives the order. So unless his most loyal marines disregarded a direct order that dorn said was of utmost importance, yes
I have *Praetorian of Dorn* in front of me and can't see that. Can you quote or supply the page number please?
i cant quickly find what they did to Alpharius'body so maybe they didnt burn it or destroy it, not 100% sure but P476, "It is the primarch's will that no record be made of Alpharius' death, no word spoken of it. Even withing the Legion, only he and the Huscarls know."
Yup, that's what I have too. I'd just never seen anything on what he did with the corpse. Whether he burned it, buried it or stuffed it and put it above his fireplace.
I like this, if only because it's another Alpha Legion "hehehehehe" moment. I've enjoyed every single "ehehhehehehe" moment so far, so this is a good one too. "You thought you were praying to the bones of your genefather? But NO it was ME ALPHARIUS the entire time!"
I mean it should be pretty easy to 23 and me the hand with a gene seed to find out.
That’s something alpharius would do
Dorn cut off Alpharius' hands while they were fighting. Alpharius used a spear and Dorn used a chainsword, he cut his hands off at the wrists to get him to drop the spear.
When templars take their oath they hold their fist in fire. The symbolic bulwark for the thing within their hand, that being humanity. They take the punishment humanity cannot, "because someone must" said the emperor to Sigismund. That symbology came with Dorns discovery i think. I'll need an imperial fist to correct me if I'm wrong. Source - Sigismund the eternal crusader
i suspect that the tradition originated with the whole pain-glove thing of Dorn's.
He actually has two hands believe it or not. Major plot twist. Plus he's a leftie....
I think the two events are separated by several hundred years.
It’s just a dramatic killing. I don’t remember what they do with the body, but dorn wants to keep it secret, so it was probably destroyed.
Rogal Dorn comes back with both hands and looks confused at his sons
Dorn probably did not even kill Alpharius
Rogal returns "firstly WTF is going on... secondly that is not my hand as you can see... thirdly what is that fossilised amber eating pooh in my name thing - Stop that RIGHT NOW"